FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Re: wort aeration via air pump (hollen)
  Two-litre Pop Chiller? (Douglas Painter)
  9/95 1056 questions (Joseph.Fleming)
  Styles (Rob Lauriston)
  N2O (John DeCarlo              )
  Re: Root Beer (Scott E. Bratlie)
  Using O2 in wort aeration. (John DeCarlo              )
  Betas (Algis R Korzonas)
  Egad! There's something growing in my beer! (Bill Whittaker)
  Washing mead yeast (smtplink!guym)
  enzymes, temperature and time (Algis R Korzonas)
  Easymasher - an alternative to welding? (Paul Sovcik)
  Re:   Pump Aeration Foam (C.D. Pritchard)
  wort coolers necessary? (Rolland Everitt)
  Balance & SS cleaner (Kyle R Roberson)
  [Q] Priming with unfermented wort (Woodstok)
  hop oils, vegemite beer, hop hazes, beer judging glasses (Andy Walsh)
  Bottle Conditioning Vs Filtering + Forced carbonation. (CHARLIE SCANDRETT)
  Sassafras (Mark Thompson)
  Grain Mills, Secret Ingredients, and Wort Chiller Construction (Michael G. Zentner)
  Oxygen injection (Eric Bender)
  CABERNET SAUVIGNON ALE (Mike Morgan)
  frig vs freezer ("Wallinger, W. A.")
  ALUMINUM SUMMARY (rbarnes)
  CABERNET SAUVIGNON ALE (Mike Morgan)
  CABERNET SAUVIGNON ALE (Mike Morgan)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 07:45:52 -0700
From: hollen at vigra.com
Subject: Re: wort aeration via air pump

>>>>> "Lee" == LEE BOLLARD <LEE_BOLLARD at HP-Spokane-om2.om.hp.com> writes:

Lee> O2 is probably quicker, but I've heard it is possible to OVER
Lee> aerate using O2.  Over aeration isn't really possible using an
Lee> aquarium pump.  Don't know how O2 would affect foaming.

I hate to disagree here, but according to George Fix (I heard this
from his lips directly) research he has done for an upcoming book
definitively proves that it is *impossible* to oversaturate wort with
O2 at atmospheric pressure.  He went on to say that if you measure the
O2 content right after injection, it may be too high, but that within
a couple of minutes, it will drop to exactly the right level for
maximum effectiveness for yeast growth.

Regarding O2 and foaming, I use a SS 2 micron stone for O2 injection
and it foams a good bit, but not too badly.  However, I do my
injection in a closed corny keg so foaming (no matter how much) is not
a problem for me.

dion

- -- 
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x119       Email: hollen at vigra.com
Senior Software Engineer     Vigra, Inc.  San Diego, California

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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 11:19:25 -0400
From: Douglas Painter <painter at CAM.ORG>
Subject: Two-litre Pop Chiller?

Let me first say that I am no longer a lurker from Montreal! But am now
confident enough to post and ask questions from all you experienced HBD people. 

Mark Moylan, in the latest Zymurgy (p.89), states that frozen 2 litre pop
bottles can be effective wort chillers; is this true?  Wouldn't the plastic
melt and/or effect the flavour of the brew?  Has anyone tried this method?

Could someone post me personally <painter at cam.org> and advise me on what to
buy, or convert, for my mash and lauter tun. I guess what I am asking is
what do you guys and gals have in your brew-cupboard. I only have experience
with intermediate brewing and would like to mash. This is what I already
have: 2 x 23lt and 1 x 19lt glass carboys; 2 x 25lt plastic bins with lids
(standard food grade)one with a tap 1 1/2" above the base; and I have 2 x
19lt, and one 9lt, s.s. brew pots; and given my brew pots should I split my
wort in two, make a smaller batch, or make a stronger smaller batch and add
water to 5 gallons? (our Canadian gallons are bigger eh! :-}  )... what
shall I do?

With a raised glass,
Douglas


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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 95 11:09:40 est
From: Joseph.Fleming at gsa.gov
Subject: 9/95 1056 questions

        Jack relates problems with Wyeast 1056 purchased with a 9/95 
     stamped date.  I had a quart starter of 1056 of the same date ready to 
     toss into my IPA when I smelled the starter: whew!  Very citrusy, but 
     it was 1AM and my first all grain brew session and I was in no mood; I 
     pitched the starter.
        The beer was dry hopped so the final product smells great and 
     fermented fine, but the yeast in the bottles is, well "chunkily 
     floculant", not a fine layer at the bottom.  The beer was unfined 
     (save IM).
        Since the primary smelled allright, I pitched a brown on top of the 
     dregs.  Now I'm mad; this delicious beer is still uncarbonated almost 
     four weeks in the bottle, though it fermented out.  All fermentation  at  
     68-70F.
        I of course suspected my sanitation techniques, which aren't the 
     best, but have not failed me yet.  But now Jack's post makes we wonder 
     if the September 1056's somehow mutated enough to affect the yeast's 
     functionality.  Naw, must be me right?  But I have an apple ale and 
     oatmeal stout that fermented like mad and now smell divine in the 
     secondary...
     
        Joe - joseph.fleming at gsa.gov
        Cripple Creek Brewing


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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 95 09:55 PDT
From: robtrish at mindlink.bc.ca (Rob Lauriston)
Subject: Styles

In case I haven't caused enough mischief...

I agree with Ken Schroeder's contribution to the styles discussion.

To set the record straight as to where I stand in the debate, I think that
beer 'styles' are made up of three threads (like porter!), namely, history,
commercial examples and arbitrary definition.  When you get to a homebrew
competition, only the last should matter.

The 'irritation' I feel (to use Ken's word) stems from the fact that the
idea of style is often 'reified' -- the lovely little word (just about as
good as hegemony) that means that 'style' is treated as if it is something
real and tangible out there that we can discover by exploration and
examination, including historical research.  "Style' is instead an invention
of our imaginations, something that can be changed as easily as we change
our minds about it.  While the words used to name styles have a history, the
point I was trying to make in the last post was that it's especially
imaginitive to think that present examples of a style taste the same as they
would have in the past.  (But until we have time-machines, no one will
really know.)  

Some people try a beer and then want to pigeonhole it into one style or
another.  There is absolutely no reason to think that a beer does or should
fit into any recognized style at all, and it is certainly not a shortcoming
of a beer if it doesn't.  You like a beer or you don't.

As for homebrew competitions OTOH, I feel that beers are best judged against
a set of sensory characteristics which are defined before hand;  the idea is
that it is better to try to establish a goal and measure how well a brewer
achieves it than to see how well a brewer pleases the preferences of the
judges of a particular competition.  Since things like "overall impression"
are still part of judging, there remains lots of room for discretion on the
part of judges.

My personal feeling is that it is also of great practical benefit to have
the judging criteria (aka 'styles') generally standardized from one
competition to another, or at least from year to year.  That way you can
brew an entry to a competition before it is even organized and announced --
you just 'brew-to-style'.  If the criteria for judging were different from
competition to competition and weren't known until the competition was
announced, would you have time to brew a qualifying entry?  Individual
competitions can always have extra categories, as Ken mentioned.

When it comes to defining the style criteria for competitions, history and
commercial examples should probably be taken into account, but at the
competition after the categories have been defined, I think judges should be
guided solely by the defined guidelines and that everyone should understand
that they are essentially arbitrary.  Breweries have no obligation to follow
style guidelines in naming their beers, and so it is particularly dangerous
to judge against a commercial example unless the commercial example happens
to fit the defined category.  Judges have lots of discretion, but I don't
think they should be trying to re-define the categories at the judging table.

So I generally agree with the way competitions are judged, but I disagree
with the way some people seem to conceptualize 'style'.  In the end, variety
is my credo: variety in beers, variety in people, variety in ideas and
variety in beer-related activities.  Anyone who doesn't like competitions as
they are can either not participate,  work towards improving them or
organize their own competition.

This should probably be on the Judgenet, but I don't seem to be able to
reach synchro.com from here!

I don't dare touch the subject of oak in IPAs.

    Rob Lauriston                          <robtrish at mindlink.bc.ca>
    The Low Overhead Brewery                        Vernon, B. C.


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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 95 13:22:46 EST
From: John DeCarlo <jdecarlo at mitre.org>
Subject: N2O

>I had 2 private e-mails about the N2O comments in #1856 both of which
>mentioned that the gas has a sweet taste. I don't know if those gentlemen
>will post something themselves but this is certainly worth mentioning.

Though my experience is not related to beer, I use N2O cartridges to 
automatically make whipped cream in a special dispenser.  A couple of times 
in the past I accidentally used a CO2 cartridge, and the bitterness that 
resulted made me think the cream had gone bad.  There is definitely a *huge*
taste difference between using CO2 in whipped cream and N20.  You do *not* 
want to taste the CO2-whipped cream.

How this applies to beer carbonation I do not know.

John DeCarlo, MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA--My views are my own
Fidonet:  1:109/131  Internet:  jdecarlo at mitre.org


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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 12:44:45 -0600
From: bratlie at selway.umt.edu (Scott E. Bratlie)
Subject: Re: Root Beer

>
>
> I am interested in your root beer recipe.
>
> 1) What is shilling extract and where can I get it?
> 2) Taste: Does it have a true root beer taste or does it have an ale taste
>to it?
> 3) What is the exact procedure for making it?
>
>
>
>								Michael Maurice
>								michael_maurice at aidt.edu
> 
>
>
>
 -Shilling is a brand name that I picked up at the local grocery store
 -My father says it reminds him of the root beer that he had when he was a
boy, he's 67.
 -mix all the ingredients including water and boil for 15 or 20 min. top up
to make five gallons
when cool add yeast and bottle.  I bottled from my bottling bucket.

Scott Bratlie
Missoula, Montana  
Bratlie at selway.umt.edu

      "A nation may lose its liberties in a day and 
       not miss  them in a century."
                                                       Montesquieu 


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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 95 15:24:46 EST
From: John DeCarlo <jdecarlo at mitre.org>
Subject:  Using O2 in wort aeration.

Lee Bollard brings up an old issue:
>O2 is probably quicker, but I've heard it is possible to OVER aerate using
>O2.

George Fix, in HBD 1446, June 19, 1994 (Yow!), gave us some preliminary 
results from experiments with using pure O2 to oxygenate:

>Dissolved O2 can be hazardous to yeast once DO levels approaches the high
>teens (in mg/l). Our results indicate that there is no way such levels
>can be reached with beer wort no matter how much O2 is injected.

Has anyone heard any more?  Dr. Fix's post in HBD 1446 was in anticipation 
of getting his next book to the publisher by December 1994 (Principles of 
Brewing Science II.  Practical Considerations).  Presumably a detailed 
explanation of what happens when you aerate with O2 would be in there.  Did 
it get published when I wasn't looking (easy to do)?

John DeCarlo, MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA--My views are my own
Fidonet:  1:109/131  Internet:  jdecarlo at mitre.org


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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 95 14:27:39 CDT
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: Betas

Jim writes:
>The first one was 14.9P and finished at 3.3P, had about 5% Munich and
>a lot of CaraMunich and a touch of CaraPils.  Mash at 150-148F for one
>hour, mash off at 170F, lauter 170.  ADA=78%, American Ale yeast.
> 
>Batch 2: same specialties, used Hugh Baird as base instead of DeWolf.
>Doughed in at 149F and quickly adjusted with cold water to 145F.  This
>dropped to 140F over 35 minutes and then was boosted with direct fire to
>148F for 20 min, then 170F, lauter.  Same yeast.  OG=15.9P, FG=3.1P.
>ADA=80.5%.
> 
>This shows that the beta amylase rest will have some impact on real degree
>of fermentability, but the overall percentage in this example is only
>2.5%...

Shame on you Jim... you call yourself a scientist ;^).  Since you used
two different malts, how can you compare the results and blame them
on beta-amylase.  You may be right, but then you can't really be sure,
right?

Al.

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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 16:45:35 -0400
From: wpw104 at psu.edu (Bill Whittaker)
Subject: Egad! There's something growing in my beer!



        I've been brewing extract beers for about a year now, with varying
degrees of success, but 
this is the first time Iv'e ever encountered what appears to be a white,
puffy, cloudlike mold
growing on top of my beer in the carboy.  What is it?  Has anyone ever had
this problem? 
The beer I am making is a simple pale ale.  The mold started right after I
racked the beer into
my secondary.  What kind of off flavors should I expect?  Could this be due
to poor yeast, poor
sanitation (I may have gotten a little lax lately) or both?  This is my
first post, although I've been
reading the group for some time now, and I appreceate any suggestions from
the more experienced folks in the homebrew world.

Bill   


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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 95 15:43:47 MDT
From: exabyte!smtplink!guym at uunet.uu.net
Subject: Washing mead yeast

  Hello all,
  
  I have "washed", saved, and repitched beer yeast for some time now with 
  great results.  My question is, can the same safely be done with mead 
  yeast?  I see no reason why not other than the generally higher alcohol 
  content of mead versus beer.  Would it be better to save it from the 
  primary as well, assuming that the answer to question one is "yes"?  One 
  more to make it an even three; how long should the yeast keep if it is 
  refrigerated?  I'm almost ashamed to say how long I've kept (and 
  successfully reused) beer yeast.
  
  --
  Guy McConnell - Huntersville, NC - guym at exabyte.com
  "I've got this Bank of Bad Habits in the corner of my soul..."


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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 95 13:18:05 CDT
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: enzymes, temperature and time

Steve writes:
>Al - I brought out texts to support my point - I don't have your reputation
>at HBD.   It was also my intent to expand the discussion.   I hope you
>can find it interesting and enjoyable.

Sorry about the overreaction.  Your pulling out the big guns kind of
walloped me.  I do think that it is an interesting discussion and I'll
bet that the "truth" is some mix of what we've both posted.  I was rather
sloppy in my wording and, in fact, the way I wrote it, I was wrong.  It's
good that you caught it and took the time to check it all out.

>>a very active temperature for protease.  If not for the action of protease,
>>then why mash at 140F/60C?  Why not mash at 149F/65C?  At this temperature,
>>beta amylase activity is higher AND gelatinization is occurring too.
>
>The tables from Malting and Brewing Science mentioned in my original
>post indicate a drop in fermentabilty from around (sorry - I don't
>have the text in front of me today) 76% to around 67% as the mash
>temperature rises from 60C to 68C.  This is a substantial drop and is
>of practical concern.  The amounts of the various sugars as well as
>nitrogen (soluable protein and amino acids) is also substantially
>effected over this temperature range.

Probably little in terms of amino acids, but indeed medium-sized soluble
proteins (head retention and body) are increased in this range.  I was
aware of this drop in fermentability, but the other part you quoted I
had not yet read in MBS:

>amylase as a function of temperature.  This graph indicates a roughly
>three-fold decrease in fermentable product as the temperature rises
>from 60C to 63C !!  Thankfully mashing an all-grain wort is a much
>more forgiving process than this.  One problem in reaching an

Wow!  This is quite a bit more than I had thought. You see, while it seems
that your goal is to produce a very fermentable wort, much of my brewing
is just the opposite: I'm trying to make a full-bodied, malty bitter
that's not too dry from a 1.040 wort.  This is why I keep the time at
140F very short (15 min) (actually, I think that I'll drop that to 135F
to minimize beta-amylase action even more) and then shoot up to 158F with
infusions of boiling water.

>I agree that 60C is near the lower end of the practical saccharification
>range, but I might consider using an even lower temperature if I had a
>large adjunct load and wanted to insure maximum effectiveness of the
>beta-amylase available.

I'm not so sure that you would want to change your beta-amylase rest
temperature based upon adjuncts.  You may want to add a beta-glucanase rest
if the adjunct is high in beta-glucans and even a 122F rest if you are
using something very very high in protein and don't want to make a beer
that drinks like wallpaper paste.

>So why not mash at 65C ?  Quicker denaturing of enzymes and production
>of less fermentable wort are the issues.  When a highly fermentable
>wort is desired or adjuncts dilute the available beta-amylase, then
>the lower temperature is certainly called for.  Step mashing for the
>two amylases may offer better process control as well.

Given your quote from MBS on that flour experiment, I think that indeed
if you are trying to make a very fermentable wort, 65F is significantly
different from 60F.

>50-55C for maximal soluble protein AND amino acid production
>55-60C for maximal production of non-amino acid soluble protein.

Actually (but it's off the top of my head), I believe it's:
45-50C (113F-122F) for maximal amino acid production and
50-60C (122F-140F) for maximal medium-sized soluble proteins (head ret & body).

This is why I stay as far from 45-50C as I can when I'm making my Ordinary
and Special Bitters: there's only so much protein to go around and if you
let the peptidase munch it all down into amino acids, you'll have happy
yeast, but watery beer especially with the well-modified British malts I
prefer.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at pubs.att.com

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Date:         Tue, 17 Oct 95 16:28:07 CDT
From: Paul Sovcik <U18183 at UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU>
Subject:      Easymasher - an alternative to welding?


 I have been considering getting a Sanke keg and fitting it with a spigot
on the bottom by means of welding as per many brewing articles.

 However, I was looking at the Easymasher system and noticed that it
fits onto a brewpot or keg without requiring a weld - just a washer and
a tight fitting.

Now I'm thinking - why weld?  I'll save some $$ and hassle if I dont.

 So what is the advantage of welding a spigot on a keg?  Why not have a
setup like an easymasher?  Does the easymasher leak after long use?

      -Paul  PJS at uic.edu

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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 95 18:54 EDT
From: cdp at chattanooga.net (C.D. Pritchard)
Subject: Re:   Pump Aeration Foam

Tim Fields <74247.551 at compuserve.com> writes in #1857 about aerating with
an aquarium pump:

>As the foam comes out of the carboy, it collects in the funnel and I can
>periodically scoop it up with my "cleaned and sanitized" hands.  Seems to
>be no problem with infecting the wort because the foam doesn't "fall back"
>into the wort.

You're losing wort and aeration by drawing off the foam.  The surfaces of the
bubbles are where the O2 is absorbed (adsorbed?).  I'd stop the pump when
the wort started to foam over.  Personally, I just shake the hell out of the
carboy 2 or 3 times. Haven't had any problems except with underpitched lagers.

c.d. pritchard      cdp at chattanooga.net
C.D. Pritchard    cdp at chattanooga.net


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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 18:37:32 -0400
From: af509 at osfn.rhilinet.gov (Rolland Everitt)
Subject: wort coolers necessary?



I do not presently use a wort cooler, and I am wondering just
how important they are.  After cooking, I remove my hops (bagged),
cover the pot (cover is reasonably sterile), and let is sit until
cool (usually overnight).  The trub settles nicely, and I am able 
to siphon the wort off it easily.  No doubt purists will sniff
at this procedure (you guys should see how I sparge - but that is
another story).  In addition to the expense and hassle of using
a wort chiller, it occurs to me that bits of trub that will
inevitably find their way into the chiller may adhere to the 
inside of the tubing and be hard to remove (and impossible to
see inside copper coils).  Trub can adhere to the inside of 
tubing even at room temperature - I have seen it in my plastic
siphon tube - and once it dries, it is tough to remove.

What is the common wisdom - am I missing an important step?


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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 15:53:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kyle R Roberson <roberson at beta.tricity.wsu.edu>
Subject: Balance & SS cleaner

I build a balance scale for measuring my grain and malt thus:
Hook on the ceiling, chain, 1 inch dowel, hooks on each end
(pointing the same direction), two plastic HDPE buckets.

Put the hooks on each end of the dowel and mark each end R and
L. Put an R and L on the bottom of each bucket. Put the R-bucket
on the R-end and L-bucket on the L-end. Find the balance point with
a straight edge. Mark and drill a hole to attach the chain. Hang
from ceiling. 

To measure out 3 kilograms of malt, put 3 liters of water in the 
bucket on the end where the open end of the hook points in. That way
it won't slip off as that end drops. Pour malt in the other bucket
till it balances. To add 0.5 Kg of munchen malt, add .5 l of water to
the water bucket and then add malt to the malt bucket until it 
balances. 

In practice, start with the smallest amounts first: crystal, munchener,
pils. That way you get big angle changes on small amounts. You can
put a bubble level indicator if you want. I just eye-ball it.
Consitancy is what's important from batch to batch.

I have found that Shower Power will clean beer stone off of stainless
steel like magic. It contains phosphoric acid, which is the working
agent for beer stone. I clean it very well with B-Brite or other
cleaner after rinsing the Shower Power off (very well). Don't leave the
SP in there more than a few minutes. It works instantly anyway on stuff that
scrubbing with steel wool won't remove.

Kyle


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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 18:15:10 -0600 (MDT)
From: Woodstok <woodstok at rupert.oscs.montana.edu>
Subject: [Q] Priming with unfermented wort

I've read both Dave Miller's book and Papazian's books.  They both 
mention priming with 'gyle' or unfermented wort. Papazian gives no 
warnings, Miller cautions against priming by this method with high OG 
beers.  I'm a little confused...  I don't know of anyone who has ever 
tried this, so i'm looking for a little advice from an experienced 
brewer.  I hope this isn't an old, hashed out thread that i missed, if 
so, just e-mail me in private.  

Thanks in advance for any advice anyone can give!

David

	   !!!!THIS LIFE IS A TEST!!!!
This life is only a test, if this had been an actual 
life you would have received official instructions 
on where to go and what to do...



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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 11:25:59 +-1000
From: Andy Walsh <awalsh at crl.com.au>
Subject: hop oils, vegemite beer, hop hazes, beer judging glasses

Hello.


Hop Oils
Can anyone tell me which of linalool and geraniol is the rose-smelling =
one? What does the other smell of?
*********
Vegemite Beer
A very common fault I notice in beer is that it tastes of vegemite. I =
taste this character *only* in dark beers. Our scoresheet defines this =
as "yeast autolysis" (remember from the vegemite thread that vegemite is =
autolyzed yeast  guts that some perverts like to spread on their toast =
for breakfast) and it is definitely exactly the same flavour (I love =
vegemite but cannot stand it in my beer). The trouble is, I don't think =
it is due to autolyzed yeast, as
 - I only ever taste it in dark beers
 - recently I counter-pressure bottled a bock from my keg. The beer was =
crystal clear on bottling and tasted great. 1 month later - vegemite! =
There is no yeast that I can see in the bottle.
Does anybody know what I am talking about, and if so, do you know what =
causes this fault?
**********
Hop Hazes
I recently made 10 gallons of pilsener which I split into two 5 gallon =
batches. Half was dry-hopped with 1oz Saaz pellets, the other with 1oz =
Saaz flowers. I have since kegged the beers and both have received =
identical treatment and are under refigeration. Both have received =
gelatine fining treatment.=20
The flower beer is crystal clear. The pellet beer is hazy, even though I =
have almost finished the keg! (I might have expected it to clear a bit =
near the end). It looks very much like a chill haze but does not =
disappear on warming. So I'll dry hop with flowers only from now on. =
Anyone else noticed this effect?
***********
Beer Judging Glasses
I have been entrusted with buying judging glasses for our club comp this =
weekend. As I wanted to get the best type, I sat down the other day with =
about 1 dozen glasses to test each type. I used 3 different styles of =
beer in each (1 straw lager, 1 dark lager and 1 stout). It was a tough =
job, but somebody had to do it!
Summaries of each (less than 1 dozen as I tried some slight variations =
of each)

7 oz. "middie" beer glass=20
	Appearance/colour of beer difficult to tell due to "fat" bottom
	Easy to "swirl" beer due to largish size
	Nose was OK
	Taste was OK
6 oz. red wine glass=20
	Appearance/colour of beer difficult to tell due to glass width
 	Swirling beer caused it to slop over sides
	Nose was OK
	Taste was OK
6 oz champagne flute
	Appearance/colour of beer good due to narrow bottom (obvious with =
stout)
	Easy to "swirl" beer due to tall, thin shape and stem on glass
	Nose was excellent due to shape (mouth of glass just big enough for my =
hooter)
	Taste was OK
5 oz pilsener flute=20
	Appearance/colour of beer excellent due to narrow bottom (obvious with =
stout)
	Easy to "swirl" beer due to tall shape and stem on glass
	Nose was poor due to big, wide neck.
	Taste was OK

So I bought 300 odd champagne flutes! This result quite surprised me as =
I have never heard of champagne flutes being used to judge beer before. =
What glasses are favoured by HBD readers for judging?

Andy Walsh.


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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 95 12:42:38 +1000
From: CHARLIE SCANDRETT <merino at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Bottle Conditioning Vs Filtering + Forced carbonation.

I don't think any homebrewers pasteurize and filter, so this question is 
academic to homebrewers. This is a call for information on micro practices and 
brewing theory.
My home brewery is at the workshops going through a series of major gadget 
refits, so I'm back to partial grain at the moment. The aim of the 
modifications is that I'm chasing clean beer flavour stability for a micro 
model. I have to build at least one micro soon for a friend in Russia with a 
new hotel.
The few essential changes I'm making to "normal" micro brewing.
1/ Winowing out most of the malt husks ( 75-85%) at crushing. Including them in 
a bag at mash, but excluding them at sparge. I'm looking for a massive 
reduction in phenols.
2/ Steam injection mashing, PID contolled. I'm looking to avoid any possibility 
of scorching and want rapid movement between accurate repeatable steps.
3/ Sparging with deoxygenated (reverse osmosis) water in a CO2 evacuated 
environment. Grain bed random stirrers.  I am looking to avoid *all*  hot side 
aeration.
4/ Boiling at elevated temperatures (140C) for 2 minutes,  boiling at reduced 
temperatures (80C) for 90 minutes.(by pressure control) A lip on the kettle 
cone to catch condensation.  I am looking to kill all bacteria spores and 
reduce Maillard and caramelization reactions.
5/Hop back, then fast  plate heat exchanger cooling.(8-10 minutes) No air 
contact. (Hops sanitized)
6/Flotation tank coldbreak separation over ~16 hours at 0C while aerating. 
Remove some wort for starter. I am looking for complete cold break removal in a 
hermetically sealed environment Skim cake automatically.
7/ Centrifuge before transfer to fermenter at pitching temperature..
8/ 6:1 pitching ratio (volume wort) and further aeration for 2 hours. Fermenter 
cone is colder to preserve floculated yeast. (Yes warming home fermenters from 
the bottom *is* a problem.) The temperature/fermentatuion profile is 
microprocessor controlled. Diacetyl rest at higher temperature for 12 hours.
9/ Other  modifications are controlled environment hop and malt storage. Hop, 
water and bottle air analysis lab.

 YEAST is a powerful reducer (i.e. prevents oxidation and therefore staling), 
but over time floculated yeast autolysizes and produces off flavours. Now the 
less floculant strains ferment easier and more completely  but are more 
difficult to seperate. Because of routine thermal abuse in transport almost all 
megabreweries thoroughly filter out all yeast and pastuerize. Modern "Ice" beer 
is simply a filtering improvement that eliminates the need for heat 
pastuerization. Water is added back to replace the icicle surounded particles 
of protein haze and yeast that are removed.
I propose to use whatever yeast/yeasts needed in primary and secondary. 
a/ At a set SG, close the fermenter to naturally carbonate with the back 
pressure. (This is normal practice.)
b/ The chosen SG wll only partially reach the desired carbonation level. (about 
80%) This is to minimize the addition of Krausen priming and the resulting 
sediment which might autolysize. Bottle carbonating only a small proportion 
reduces the possibility of gross errors in  carbonation from this process.
c/ At the end of secondary, the beer will be gently filtered to a bright beer 
tank. A Krausen priming is added after it has finished respiration. This is to 
avoid the contact of oxygen and beer.
d/ The Krausening will use a highly floculant, warm-fermenting yeast like 
Wyeast 2112 (lagers), or Wyeast 1338 (ales). This is to produce a thin compact 
sediment, tolerant of thermal abuse.
e/ Counter pressure bottle filling at 0C into CO2 pre-evacuated, sanitized, 
cold bottles.
f/ The six packs of packaged beer may be centifuged on a continous carosell 
after conditioning, to further compact the sediment if necessary. 
Transportation to store in cold truck.

I think the stable sediment would be a marketing plus, clearly differentiating 
"real beer" from filtered and pastuerized beer. If this preserves hop aroma and 
flavour for months, the consistant fresh flavour is also a marketing advantage.

THE BIG QUESTION IS; Will the reducing power of the presence of yeast be a 
greater plus in flavour freshness preservation than the possible production of 
off flavours by autolysis or shock excretion from thermal abuse? I don't want 
to spend a year brewing experiments to find out, if expert advice can solve 
this now. What are European bottle conditioning practices? Coopers in Australia 
produces several bottle conditioned ales with Adelaide Ale yeast. This doesn't 
floculate very highly and often doesn't travel all the way to Queensland very 
well. All their carbonation (which is high) comes from bottle conditioning.
 
One more question; Why use oxygen scavenging tops if you have oxygen scavenging 
yeast? It seems to me that yeast during respiration can practically deoxygenate 
water saturated with O2 at 8mg/litre. Don't sugar primed bottles start 
respiration again or does the yeast just sleepily continue secondary 
fermentation? How efective are these caps?

This must seem heavy metal gadgetry for homebrewing. I am trying to take a 
homebrewer's attitude towards absolute quality into commercial craft brewing. 
Any other design suggestions?

Charlie  (Brisbane, Queensland, Australia)





















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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 22:03:19 -0500
From: Mark Thompson <mthompso at mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: Sassafras

Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com> writes:

>Last I read, about 4 years ago, it was not illegal to sell, but it had to be
>marked as "not edible" or something like that.  A few years before that, it 
>was quite popular as an herbal tea.  It turned out to be highly carcinogenic,
>if memory serves correctly.  I used to buy it at a health food store, and one
>time the jar was marked "not fit for human consumption".  (Several other jars
>were also thusly marked, mostly stuff they geared towards people who were 
>making potpourri, as far as I could tell.)  Later, when I went back there, the
>jar was no longer marked "Not fit..." and I asked, and the guy there said that
>it was specially processed to remove the toxins.

I can verify that is not illegal to sell sassafras.  Having lived a good
portion of my life in Louisiana I have had my fair share of file' gumbo.
The file' is actually nothing more than ground sassafras leaves.  On the jar
I have in front of me right now, there is no warning whatsoever nor is there
any mention of any processing done to the sassafras.

On a beer related note, file' has an aroma very similar to hops.  I used
some in a Pale Ale and it came out very good.  I couldn't discern the file',
but it didn't detract from the beer at all.

Mark Thompson,  Austin Texas,  <mthompso at mail.utexas.edu>


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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 06:39:15 -0500
From: zentner at combination.com (Michael G. Zentner)
Subject: Grain Mills, Secret Ingredients, and Wort Chiller Construction

It has been a long time since I've posted here.  I have a question which 
undoubtedly has been touched upon several times but for which I missed the 
answers in the digest, and two anciently posted ideas in exchange for 
answers to my question.

1.  Roller Mills.  I see now that there is something called the "Valley 
Mill" in the commercial fray with other malt mills.  Can someone provide me 
with a summary, either via regular email, or a digest post, as to 
experiences with individual or multiple mills?  I want to buy one, but don't 
know what to choose. I will admit that the recent posting of the cement 
roller mill is intrigueing and appealing from an artistic standpoint (maybe 
I could power it by hitching up my dog and making him run in circles!).  
Thanks if anyone can help.

2.  "Secret" ingredients.  For those who haven't been for more than 3 years 
or so, my wife had an incredible Apple Ale by adding a certain quantity of 
"Red Hot" candies.  It really turned out well and matured nicely over 1.5-2 
years, at which point it was sadly gone.

3.  Wort Chillers.  As always in my posts, my plans for counterflow wort 
chiller construction are available online simply by mailing me a request.

Thanks,

Mike Zentner
Advanced Process Combinatorics, Inc.
zentner at combination.com


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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 08:28:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eric Bender <benderec at ttown.apci.com>
Subject: Oxygen injection

Todd A Darroch writes:
>While touring a micro brewery, I saw a large tank of oxygen...The 
>brewmasters reply was that the wort is injected with it after its chilled 
>and "prior" to pitching. Do we all need to go to our local gas supplier?
Todd,
The latest issue of "Brewing Techniques" has a excellent article for 
homebrewers on wort aeration, indicating that most homebrewers do not get 
an adequate amount of disolved O2 into their wort. The article describes 
several ways to improve upon this and also list numbers on the recomended 
amount (ppm) of O2 that should be in wort. I have purchased a gadget 
called the Oxynater, which comes with a small cylinder of pure oxygen, 
some tubing, and a S.S. areation stone. I have yet to use it as my first 
batch of the year is scheduled for early Nov. But I expect good results 
and improved H-brew. If you need further information on either B.T. Or 
the Oxynater, E-mail me privately. 
Now a question of my own if I could. I was planning on pitching first and 
then aerating with the Oxynater several times over the next 1-3 Hrs? as I 
also like to let the trub settle out before I rack to the primary 
fermenter. Must pitching come "after" areation? I always thought to pitch 
as soon as cooldown was complete and then areate at the same time.
TIA,
Eric (benderec at ttown.apci.com)

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 08:42:04 -0400
From: Mike Morgan <morgan at aavid.com>
Subject: CABERNET SAUVIGNON ALE

In an attempt to make a "Sweet Blueberry Ale" I formulated a recipe
to include a can of "Blueberry Wine Base" to take advantage of what I had
available.
In the bed of my pickup truck I preserved (a.k.a you just might be a
redneck) a can
of Blueberry Wine Base & a can of Cabernet Sauvignon Wine Base.  These cans
kicked around for over 2 years.  

The labels were gone, surface rust on the cans, they looked REALLY bad.   
There was NO WAY to tell which was the Blueberry.  Being a statistical type of 
guy, i realized that I had a 50 / 50 chance of picking the Blueberry but.......
being a PRACTICAL type of guy, I tried to get the wife to pick.  
If she was wrong at least I had someone to blame.  She did'nt fall for that
one.  
It was MY choice.

I picked the one I thought was the Blueberry.  When opening it seemed to SMELL
like Blueberry...it seemed to TASTE like Blueberry.  I fermented it in my
recipe.
A week later.....I racked it into the secondary and added 2 lbs of frozen
Blueberries.
Well it did'nt TASTE like Blueberry.  You guessed it CABERNET SAUVIGNON ALE.

Now its kegged... taste pretty good....kinda like that KRIEK BEER only with
a taste of the world's finest wine grapes. 

I think I'll send this one to the SAM ADAMS WORLD BEER CONTEST.  I know it
will be original.




morgan at aavid.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
m O R G A N	m O R G A N
	m O R G A N	m O R G A N
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Return to table of contents


Date: 18 Oct 1995 06:06:06 PDT
From: "Wallinger, W. A." <WAWA at chevron.com>
Subject: frig vs freezer


From: Wallinger, W. A. (Wade)
To:  OPEN ADDRESSING SERVI-OPENADDR
Subject:  frig vs freezer
Date: 1995-10-18 07:56
Priority:

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Jay writes:
>I'm ready to invest in a brewing fridge.  I've seen some of you mention
>that you use a chest-type frezzer - others use an upright refridgerator.
>What are the pros/cons of each?

I intended to use my beer frig for kegs, but I was only able to get two kegs
in the frig, and they displaced all my bottles. I was fortunate enough to
find someone who was disposing of their old chest freezer at no charge
(other than transportation, ;-)), and now use this for kegs, lagering, even
bottle storage. The main advantage I find is the number of kegs or carboys
it can hold (6) for about the same volume of cooler space. The downside is
that you must invest in a temperature controller, and the chest freezer has
a larger footprint. I had one incident with my Hunter Airstat where it went
kaput in the 'on' position. Fortunately, I discovered the problem before I
ended up with 5 gallon popsicles, but the risk is always there. My frig has
a freezer, too, so that may provide some advantages as well. The bottom line
for me is that, although I find having both to be beneficial, I would give
up the frig if I had to choose between them.


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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 95 06:17:50 pst
From: rbarnes at sdccd.cc.ca.us
Subject: ALUMINUM SUMMARY

     I received numerous responses to my aluminum pot and overnight
     mashing questions last week. Thanks to all. In summary:
     
     1. Several indicated that the overnight mash might lead to 
     bacterial infections that would not be eliminated during
     the boil. One suggested that I should mash and sparge
     at night, then boil the next morning. Any other experiences?
     
     2. Aluminum and Alzheimers is probably a non-issue. Several
     frequent posters to the HBD boil and/or mash in aluminum 
     pots with no problems. Also, two people mentioned that
     the Jan/Feb issue of Brewing Techniques had an article on 
     using aluminum pots in brewing and found that the amounts
     of aluminum leached into the wort were negligible.
     
     Greg Walz in HB 1859 tells of problems with having a drain
     welded to his aluminum pot. Since I would like to weld 
     (heliarc) or otherwise affix a drain to aluminum, anyone
     have recommendations on doing this?
     
     3. Regarding the attachment of a drain to an enamel on steel
     pot, one person said "don't do it," another said he'd done
     it and sealed the chipped edges with food-grade aquarium
     silicone sealer. Works in a boiling pot with no problems.
     I seem to remember seeing a special paint for fixing chipped
     washing machine or dryer tubs, but I'm not sure it would 
     work in a boiling kettle.
     
     Thanks to all who replied publicly and privately. 
     
     Randy Barnes, San Diego
      

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 09:34:07 -0400
From: Mike Morgan <morgan at aavid.com>
Subject: CABERNET SAUVIGNON ALE

In an attempt to make a "Sweet Blueberry Ale" I formulated a recipe
to include a can of "Blueberry Wine Base" to take advantage of what I had
available.
In the bed of my pickup truck I preserved (a.k.a you just might be a
redneck) a can
of Blueberry Wine Base & a can of Cabernet Sauvignon Wine Base.  These cans
kicked around for over 2 years.  

The labels were gone, surface rust on the cans, they looked REALLY bad.   
There was NO WAY to tell which was the Blueberry.  Being a statistical type of 
guy, i realized that I had a 50 / 50 chance of picking the Blueberry but.......
being a PRACTICAL type of guy, I tried to get the wife to pick.  
If she was wrong at least I had someone to blame.  She did'nt fall for that
one.  
It was MY choice.

I picked the one I thought was the Blueberry.  When opening it seemed to SMELL
like Blueberry...it seemed to TASTE like Blueberry.  I fermented it in my
recipe.
A week later.....I racked it into the secondary and added 2 lbs of frozen
Blueberries.
Well it did'nt TASTE like Blueberry.  You guessed it CABERNET SAUVIGNON ALE.

Now its kegged... taste pretty good....kinda like that KRIEK BEER only with
a taste of the world's finest wine grapes. 

I think I'll send this one to the SAM ADAMS WORLD BEER CONTEST.  I know it
will be original.




morgan at aavid.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
m O R G A N	m O R G A N
	m O R G A N	m O R G A N
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 09:36:15 -0400
From: Mike Morgan <morgan at aavid.com>
Subject: CABERNET SAUVIGNON ALE

In an attempt to make a "Sweet Blueberry Ale" I formulated a recipe
to include a can of "Blueberry Wine Base" to take advantage of what I had
available.
In the bed of my pickup truck I preserved (a.k.a you just might be a
redneck) a can
of Blueberry Wine Base & a can of Cabernet Sauvignon Wine Base.  These cans
kicked around for over 2 years.  

The labels were gone, surface rust on the cans, they looked REALLY bad.   
There was NO WAY to tell which was the Blueberry.  Being a statistical type of 
guy, i realized that I had a 50 / 50 chance of picking the Blueberry but.......
being a PRACTICAL type of guy, I tried to get the wife to pick.  
If she was wrong at least I had someone to blame.  She did'nt fall for that
one.  
It was MY choice.

I picked the one I thought was the Blueberry.  When opening it seemed to SMELL
like Blueberry...it seemed to TASTE like Blueberry.  I fermented it in my
recipe.
A week later.....I racked it into the secondary and added 2 lbs of frozen
Blueberries.
Well it did'nt TASTE like Blueberry.  You guessed it CABERNET SAUVIGNON ALE.

Now its kegged... taste pretty good....kinda like that KRIEK BEER only with
a taste of the world's finest wine grapes. 

I think I'll send this one to the SAM ADAMS WORLD BEER CONTEST.  I know it
will be original.




morgan at aavid.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
m O R G A N	m O R G A N
	m O R G A N	m O R G A N
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Return to table of contents

End of HOMEBREW Digest #1861, 10/19/95