FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  John Palmer (WattsBrew)
  Styles or Lack Thereof ("Richard Scotty")
  Re: White spots/stuck mead (ED IACIOFANO)
  bulk head fitting ? ("Frederick L. Pauly")
  Tidbits & Rye (IHomeBrew)
  Green Solutions ("Palmer.John")
  Re: Milking Equipment ("John P. Linton")
  More mash temps (John Girard)
  RIMS Clarification, You'd Hope ("Fleming, Kirk R., Capt")
  pumpkin beer (KrisPerez)
  Mash out (MR SCOTT H MOBERG)
  Celsius to Farenheit (Elizabeth Blades)
  freezers vs fridges, cleaning immersion chillers (Jim Dipalma)
  Airstat Zener and Scotch Ale (Wayne Hocking)
  Road Dog Ale .jpg (Gregory Ziegler)
  leaky keg (Tim Laatsch)
  Help... stuck brew ("Ed Lustenader")
  Re: Aluminum brewpot ("John Lifer, Jr.")
  Re: Home Brewing Without Failures by H. E. Bravery (Dave Thayer)
  Wort cooling the slack way (Derrick Pohl)
  mason jars / bitterness (MR MARK W LEVESQUE)
  Storage temp of Ales (Rian Rademeyer)
  Re: Two-litre Pop Chiller? ("Michael D. Fairbrother")
  Styles Vs Eclecticism (CHARLIE SCANDRETT)
  RE: Sanatizing question/Pumpkin Ale/Book ? (MClarke950)
  re: Concrete Rollers (Robert Waterfall)
  Those Pesky Labels ("Dan Wilson")
  Re: Concrete Roller (Paul A. Hausman)
  Fermentation question (William H. Kitt, Jr.)
  Finnings (sp?) (DC)
  Coming up roses (Pierre Jelenc)
  iodophor = ? (Craig Amundsen)
  Vienna malt---Has the guality improved? ("Michael R. Swan")



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 09:51:39 -0400
From: WattsBrew at aol.com
Subject: John Palmer

Did anyone else see John Palmer on "What's Your Hobby" on HGTV last night?
The show is about hobby's and last night they did homebrewing.
That is quite a brewery you have built for yourself, John.  Congrats on your
15 minutes of fame.

Bill Watt, Clarence Center, NY  (Wattsbrew at aol.com)

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Date: 18 Oct 1995 08:06:05 -0700
From: "Richard Scotty" <richard_scotty at msmgate.mrg.uswest.com>
Subject: Styles or Lack Thereof

I don't know if this exactly fits the current discussion on styles, but did
anyone else attending the GABF notice that there were no less than 5 styles
of "American Lagers" defined?  These are the style categories that the big
three (and virtually no one else) compete in.

This year we had: American Lager, American Light Lager, American Premium
Lager, American Specialty Lager and American Malt Liquor.  I can discern no
significant difference among the first four of these "styles" and wonder why
the AOB has set up these categories other than to be able to award medals to
the big three (Yes Miller, of all the beers that don't taste like anything,
yours doesn't taste like anything the best?)  While an arguement can be made
that American Lager is a legitimate category, why is it so finely parsed?  I
can't tell the difference between Red Dog (gold medal winner??) and Miller
Genuine Draft, yet they are entered in separate categories.

Meanwhile, the American Amber Ale category had 99 entries.  This is where
further style delineation could and should be made.  So, I propose that the
American Lager categories be consolidated into a single category since they
all taste the same anyway and that we sub-divide the most popular category of
real ales to allow further distinction.

This is not in any way intended to be a slam against the GABF or the AOB. 
They do one hell of a job and I'm certain that putting together the GABF is a
logistic nightmare.  I just wanted to float this out there for further
discussion.

Rich Scotty
Spent Grain Disposal Specialist - The Crapshoot Brewery

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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 10:33:26 -0400
From: iaciofano at leds.enet.qntm.com (ED IACIOFANO)
Subject: Re: White spots/stuck mead


Rolland Everitt writes about white spots in his bottles:

>...I used
>Edme dried ale yeast for that batch, and am still wondering
>what the spots are all about, ...

Gosh Rolland, have you been in my basement?  I used two packs of EDME ale
yeast for each of my last two batches, a stout and a brown ale.  Each beer
has white spots in the beer around the neck of *some* of the bottles.  
Because it seemed random I thought that the problem was dirty/infected 
bottles.  The beer smelled fine and foamed like crazy when I poured it down 
the sink...

I used EDME ale yeast because it was quick and came in 11g packs.  I think
I'll be going back to the liquid packs even if this problem is only yeast
floating around.  

///////////////
Brian Travis writes about a mead that won't start fermenting:

>Perhaps I should note that the original batch from which the yeast was
>salvaged started at 1.088 OG and at racking to secondary was .992 gravity.
 ...
>The batch that failed to "ignite" is a higher gravity "sweet mead" with 7.5
>pounds of raspberrys and 20 lbs of "generic" honey (OG 1.135). 
 ...

Yikes!  1.135?!?!?  Your yeast probably croaked from osmotic pressure, 
being dumped from a 0.992 gravity liquid to a 1.135 must.  Think of how
you'd feel if you dove from air into a pool of wet cement.  From what 
I've learned, yeast (even wine yeast) don't like starting gravities that 
high.  One way around this might be to acclimate the yeast through 
starters of increasing starting gravity, perhaps 1.05 to 1.10 to the 
1.135 must.  Also, a starting gravity of 1.135 puts your potential alcohol 
at about 17.5%.  You'll be bumping the upper limit of wine yeast alcohol 
tolerance.

A few suggestions:  
	With 20 lbs. of honey in solution, your champaigne yeast may poop 
out with too much sugar left.  The Prise de Mousse (Lalvin EC-1118) strain
is a champaigne yeast that should be able to go to 18% alcohol and is a 
fast fermenter. Use at least 10g. for five gallons. 
     	I suggest fermenting around 60 deg F, this *may* reduce production
of harsh high order alcohols. 
	You may need more than 1t of yeast nutrient; two or three more 
will probably not affect the final flavor.  Yeast hulls are very good,
and cheep.
        If all else fails, dillute the must down to 1.100 and ferment.

/Ed_I

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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 11:02:00 -0400
From: "Frederick L. Pauly" <flp2m at galen.med.virginia.edu>
Subject: bulk head fitting ?

I'm looking for a brass,stainless, or high temp plastic bulk head
fitting with 1/4" female NPT treads. Does anyone know where I can
get such a fitting. I have a thermometer for my hot water tank
with 1/4" male NPT threads.

Rick Pauly   Nuclear Med Tech    Charlottesville, VA

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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 11:31:49 -0400
From: IHomeBrew at aol.com
Subject: Tidbits & Rye

All,

Miscellaneous tidbits concerning recent threads...

****************************
Tim, here are your metric/American conversion formulas:

Celsius = 5/9(Farenheit - 32)
Farenheit = (9/5*Celsius) - 32

****************************
Someone asked about brewing schools a few days ago:

American Brewer's Guild
2110 Regis Dr.
Davis, CA  95616
Contact: Maria Tebbutt
916-753-0497
FAX 916-753-0176

American Craftbrewers Academy
23883 Madison St.
Torrance, CA  90505
Contact: Jean Pugh
310-375-2739
FAX 310-373-6097

American School for Malting & Brewing Science & Technology
University Extension, UC Davis
Davis, CA  95616
Contact: Debbie Roberts
916-757-8899
FAX 916-757-8634

California State University, Stanislaus
801 West Monte Vista Ave.
Turlock, CA  95382
Contact: Liz Graham
209-667-3111
FAX 209-667-3299

Siebel Institute of Technology
4055 West Peretson Ave.
Chicago, IL  60646
312-463-3400
FAX 312-463-4962

****************************
Todd,

To answer your question about breweries injecting oxygen into their cooled
wort, go back and reread some of the threads from the past couple of HBDs
about injecting/aerating wort with the use of a small aquarium pump.

****************************
Bruce,

There is a nice little discussion about how to make low/no alcohol beer in
Papazian's _The_Homebrewer's_Companion_ on pages 370-372.  Distillation,
reverse osmosis, yeast "management" and special yeasts are the way in which
to do it.

****************************
Does anyone have a good all-grain recipe for a rye beer (like Redhook's Rye)?
Sorry to take up so much bandwidth!  ...Clark in Tacoma

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Date: 18 Oct 1995 08:37:52 U
From: "Palmer.John" <palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: Green Solutions

Don asked about the green-ness of the solution after brass cleaning has
proceeded too long.

The green is from the copper and is a result of the copper being oxidized by
the hydrogen peroxide, and the oxides being dissolved by the acetic acid. What
a person is shooting for is to immerse the brass item for as long as it takes
to dissolve of the surface oxides and lead, but remove it before the solution
has nothing to act on but the clean brass (and the copper constituent).

The part is not damaged at all, though to restore the butter gold appearence
you need to scrub the surface with cleanser and re-soak it in fresh solution.
Once the solution has turned green, the solution is no longer usable.

Coating your threads with teflon tape is a very good idea when joining
dissimilar metals. Grounding the copper might make it worse, it depends on what
metals you have joined and whether there is any charge across them. By
grounding one of them, you might in essence complete a circuit and have
vigorous galvanic corrosion take place.

John J. Palmer - Metallurgist for MDA-SSD M&P 
johnj at primenet.com  Huntington Beach, California
Palmer House Brewery and Smithy - www.primenet.com/~johnj/


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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 95 10:35 EST
From: "John P. Linton" <0003726529 at mcimail.com>
Subject: Re: Milking Equipment

Last week a came across a pile of old milking equipment.  It mainly
consisted of 2 to 3 gal. SS canisters with a handle on top that resembled
an oversized hot water kettle that is commonly used to heat water on
a stove for tea, instant coffee, etc.  There were also several 5 gal.
glass containers that had a 1.5-2" hole in both the top and bottom
and also the side offset to one end.  With these items there was 
an assortment of glass pipe.  I am quit new to HBing (currently on my
third batch of extract brew) and am not quite sure if these items
could be of use at some point and time in my HBing future.  Being the
packrat that my wife accuses me of being, I am wondering if I should
cart the lot home and find a place in the attic to store this stuff.
If anyone has used these items or knows of a use, I would appreciate
all responses.  Thanks.

PS.  I already have (2) 5 gal glass carboys for 2nd fermentations.
     and a 16 qt brew pot. 
jl


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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 09:23:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: sprmario at netcom.com (John Girard)
Subject: More mash temps

I have been closely following mash temperature discussions, and have a 
few questions I wanted to pose.

As I understand it (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong), one of the 
benefits of a 60-70C (140-158F) step program is that it allows for more 
control over enzymatic activity.  This is because 60 and 70C fall 
squarely in the zones for beta- and alpha-amylase activity, 
respectively?  I assume that because a rest at 65C leads to more combined 
(alpha and beta) activity it is thus less predictable?

Also, was reviewing some old posts by George Fix that discuss his 
40-60-70 program for highly modified malts.  Have others duplicated his 
results (i.e., much increased yield over a 50-60-70 or 60-70 program)?  
Among other things, Fix mentioned that he witnessed a threefold increase 
in the rate of the increase in SG in this mash.  I 
paired this with a post by someone the other day (Jeff Renner?) who 
suggested that with his set-up a 15 min rest at 60C, then a boost to 70 
for 45 (?) minutes produced a (dextrinous), malty sweet brew, while a 45 
min rest at 60C, then boost to 70 yielded a drier product.

My question: does anyone have any data on the effect of the 40C rest on 
the maltiness of the finished product?  Seems to me that if such a step 
increases the rate of starch conversion, one would want 
to spend proportionally *less* time at 60C to produce as dextrinous a 
wort as would be produced in a longer rest at 60C *not* preceded by the 
40C rest.  Whew!  I think I got that right..

Any thoughts?

 -John

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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 95 10:29:00 MST
From: "Fleming, Kirk R., Capt" <FLEMINGKR at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil>
Subject: RIMS Clarification, You'd Hope


In #1860 in reference to the temperature of the recirculated wort
exiting the heat application region, I said:

> ...it's THIS temperature that absolutely cannot be allowed to go
> above the setpoint (at least not by some unknown amount).

Well, that parenthetical comment was a little confusing.  I'll try
to clarify.  If you want a rest at say, 155F, then in a recirculating
system I assert that you don't want the wort coming off the heating
element at 157F, for example.  Now, iff the system were steady-state
throughout the entire mash, you could then just bias your setpoint
down to ensure the wort off the heater was no higher than 155F.

However, when you do a ramp you may not know ahead of time how much
that overtemp amount is, and even if you find out what it is, it's
not likely to be the same value for ramps started at different temps.
This is what was behind the parenthetical comment.

Now, with a PID controller the liquid *at the thermocouple* will
never exceed the setpoint.  IMO then, the thermocouple has to be at
the location where the wort is hottest.  If not, then there is some
proportion of total mash time spent at some temp which is higher than
the desired mash temp.  [This time proportion could be computed if you
knew the 1) time the overheated volume of wort dV spent overheated,
2) the recirculation flow rate, and 3) the total mash volume. I
think this would be a tough nut to crack outside the lab.]

Again, I think one system design goal is to minimize the temperature
delta across the heating region--that delta will vanish as the recirc
rate goes to infinity, so you, The Engineer, must find the happy
medium.  Keith Royster asked a related question:

> How do you keep from denaturing your enzymes by over heating, or
> is this not a real concern?

*I* think it's a real concern in system design for the reason I just
suggested: overheating represents, in effect, a time-proportioned
rest at that over temp condx.  IOW, if the wort passes thru the
chamber, goes 4F over setpoint and spends 1 min at that temperature,
then with continuous recirculation you have an n-minute rest at 4F
over.

Now, in practice here's what actually happens with my setup.  The
wort is heated by direct fire as it passes over the bottom of the
Sankey keg.  The flow pattern is radial from all points directly
to the center of the bottom, into a pickup pipe, vertically upward
through the false bottom and then out the side where is flows over
a stainless bi-metal probe.

When I see the needle on the 3" dial drop 1/2F, I hit the burner.
Over the following 50-60s I see the needle climb to 1/2F overtemp
and cut off the burner.  Over the following 9-10 min the needle
gradually drops to 1/2F below setpoint, and I fire that mutha again.
Since flow is continuous (and probably nearly 3 gpm) during the
burner firing, I just don't see overheating happening--except maybe
in the attached boundary layer :-).

The dynamics of a heating-chamber system won't be the same--and I
think the question is one of Kcal/cm2 or maybe Kcal*s/cm2, I dunno.

NOTE: For those who are about sick of these speculative RIMS rants
all I can hope is that you fully enjoy the nutmeg and spaghetti
discussions, and we can call it even  :-)

KRF Colorado Springs



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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 12:34:54 -0400
From: KrisPerez at aol.com
Subject: pumpkin beer

I'v seen several posts on pumpkin beer in the last week or so, but haven't
seen this point brought up so I'll mention it here. 

DON'T USE JACK-O-LANTERN PUMPKINS!

Pumpkins grown for jack-o-lanterns aren't even real pumpkins, they are
usually some hybrid squash. They are grown for size, not flavor. If you have
ever tried to make a pie out of one, then you know. They are incrediby bland.
Find a real eating pumpkin. You may even want to substitue a more flavorfull
winter squash variety, (Butternut or Sweet meat), who's going to know?

I think the easiest way to cook the squash or pumpkin is to cut it into big
pieces and bake it in the oven. about 375 for 45-60 min, depending on the
size of the pieces. When you can easily poke it with a fork, it's done.

Kristine Perez
KrisPerez at aol.com

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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 12:36:55 EDT
From: HYMT59A at prodigy.com (MR SCOTT H MOBERG)
Subject: Mash out

This is my first posting, so beer with me. A friend and I have 
Homebrewed for about 3 yrs now. Have made 5 all grain batches the 
last couple months using 10 gal Gott cooler. How do you raise the 
temp to 170F to stop activity, sparging doesn't do it with water at 
170F, have tried removing grains, heating to 170F, returning to 
cooler. Is this the only way, is it necessary? Sorry if this has been 
answered 100 times before.

Thank you
Scott


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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 95 17:34:43 BST
From: blades at airtime.co.uk (Elizabeth Blades)
Subject: Celsius to Farenheit

Hi,
To convert from celsius ro Farenheit all you do is multiply by 9
divide by 5 and add 32.Dead easy!!!!

Cheers 

Liz Blades


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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 95 13:51:45 EDT
From: dipalma at sky.com (Jim Dipalma)
Subject: freezers vs fridges, cleaning immersion chillers


Hi All,

  In HBD#1860, Jay Reeves asks:

>I'm ready to invest in a brewing fridge.  I've seen some of you mention
>that you use a chest-type frezzer - others use an upright refridgerator.
>What are the pros/cons of each?

  I have both a 21 cu ft upright refridgerator, and a 23 cu ft chest freezer.
Before I got the freezer, I used the fridge to store Corny kegs from which
I dispensed beer. I can store only 4 kegs in the fridge, there's a lot of
wasted space above the kegs. 
  The chest freezer holds 13 kegs, more than adequate, even though I regularly
brew 10 gallon batches. It also has enough space to store my slants and jars
of sterile wort. I don't keep anything in the kitchen fridge, a fact that
greatly pleases the spousal unit.
  So, I think it's a tradeoff based on your brewing volume. If you brew the
occasional 5 gallon batch, an upright refridgerator that holds 3-4 kegs is
probably adequate. If you need to store more than 3-4 kegs, go with the
freezer.
  The only con I can see with the freezer is that if the external temperature
controller goes south, you could end up with a bunch of beer-sicles. The
battery in my Hunter airstat died recently, the temp in the freezer got to
30F even though the display read 45F. I noticed frost building up on the
inside, realized the controller wasn't working (well, DUH), changed the
battery, re-programmed it and all was well. If you use the fridge for
dispensing, you won't need an external controller, it should be able to
maintain 45F or so without help.

**********************************

   Also in HBD#1860, Guy A. DeRose asks:

>I am finally making an immersion chiller for my beer (after about a dozen
>extract and partial-mash batches) out of copper tubing and have the
>following question.  How should I clean the copper to remove any oils or
>solvents from the manufacturing process (3/8" x 50' of "refrigerator coil"),
>and should this be done before or after bending the tubing into its final
>form? 

  I wouldn't worry about cleaning the inside of the tubing, you won't be
passing wort through an immersion chiller. To clean the outside, I fill an
old 7.5 gallon plastic fermenter with water, add a teaspoon of acidblend to
acidify it, then drop the chiller in for a few minutes. I wouldn't recommend
prolonged contact time, copper is fairly reactive, you might accidentally
turn your chiller into a sparge manifold :-). After a few minutes, the
tubing comes out nice and shiny.

         Cheers,
           Jim               dipalma at sky.com

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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 08:10:35 +0200
From: ruwh at lockmtn.dom.EG.net (Wayne Hocking)
Subject: Airstat Zener and Scotch Ale

1. The zener often described as failing on Hunter 
Airstats is available through the distributor network 
of NTE. They have an info number that can be used to 
find the outfit closest to you. 800-631-1250.
Their part number is : 5137A, this is the equivalent 
of a 24V 5 Watt Zener. (1N5359B)  Probable cost is 
around $5.00, and they will sell you just one.

2. I am interested in brewing a Scotch Ale similar to 
the product sold in the US as MacAndrews Scotch Ale. 
Has anyone tried this either extract or whole grain. I 
have the Noonan book from the classic series, but he 
does not have any recipes that match his description 
of this beer. He references something called torrified 
wheat, and I can find no reference to this product in 
any of the brewing books I have. What is this?

Appreciate any responses off line, as I live in Egypt 
and have the journal sent by disk each month. (we have 
to pay for each kilobyte of transmission)


Wayne Hocking       
ruwh at lockmtn.dom.eg.net
>From the shadow of the Pyramids

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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 14:44:29 -0400
From: Gregory Ziegler <wyegz at friend.ly.net>
Subject: Road Dog Ale .jpg

  Now that I've read all the accounts of the ill fated Road Dog Ale I was
hopeing to get one step closer to the real thing.  Anybody have access to a
scanner and a bottle of Road Dog Ale? I found my self wanting a glimpse of
the bottles label more than a gulp of it's contents (strange but true).  
  I already checked the HBD Archives images section, but to no avail.  If
anybody out there could submit a jpg. into the archives I'm sure alot of
Hunter S. Thompson and Ralph Steadman fans would be very appreciative.


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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 16:29:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tim Laatsch <LAATSCH at kbs.msu.edu>
Subject: leaky keg

Hey Everyone,

Simple question: can hop aroma be scrubbed out of solution by CO2 in a leaky 
keg on constant CO2 supply?  My latest pale was dry-hopped in the keg and 
force-carbonated by intermittent pressurization.  The beer had excellent hop 
character, but was a little on the flat side.  I hooked up the CO2 tank for a 
continuous supply to the keg and have noticed a dramatic decrease in hop 
aroma after only one day.  In fact, I would say the hoppiness is completely 
gone.  This was a major disappointment and I think this same keg may have 
caused a similar problem before.  Should I transfer this beer to a different 
keg and dry-hop again??  Should this keg be taken out of service until I can 
replace the poppets, o-rings, etc.??  Thanks.

Tim


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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 17:27:48 EDT
From: "Ed Lustenader" <usfmcf9t at ibmmail.com>
Subject: Help... stuck brew


As a long time lurker, I am finally in need of some help from the
collective regarding a recent brew that hasn't fermented well.

This past weekend I brewed the following:
5 lbs American 2 row
1 lb. each of crystal, carapils, Munich malt
1/2 lb. of wheat

Mashed at 159F for 2.5 hrs. and sparged at 180F.  OG was 1.040.
Used the yeast from a previous batch of ale (American 1056) that
was jump started with a little DME the night before.

After boiling and cooling, the yeast started to ferment in 2 hrs.
and promply quit after 24hrs.  I thought the yeast might not be
enough and added one package of Whitbread Ale yeast.

No luck. Ale is sitting with no activity. Any suggestions as to
what I might do to save this brew? This is only my third batch of
all grain so I'm still on the learning curve.  TIA.

Regards,
Ed Lustenader

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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 19:23:20 -0500
From: "John Lifer, Jr." <jliferjr at felix.TECLink.Net>
Subject: Re: Aluminum brewpot

 Randy, I'll have to second Greg's post.  I've been brewing only a short
time,but If you only new the restaurants that use aluminum stock pots, then
if you think that a little brew boiling will cause you problems, then what
do you think about eggs, bacon, beef, seafood, vegetable oil, sugar,
caffeine, fats, and all the myraid of things that you and I ingest each day.
Be sure of this--- no matter what you do, you will die of something sooner
or later.  Also, just drill a hole in the side where you want a valve and
put a short piece pipe thru the hole.  My pot is thick enough for a tapped hole.

John in Mississippi  ( not always such a pessimist)


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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 23:15:07 -0600 (MDT)
From: Dave Thayer <dthayer at netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Home Brewing Without Failures by H. E. Bravery

Jerry Miller asks about Home Brewing Without Failures by H. E.
Bravery. Well, my copy is 20 years old (Cover price $0.95) so this
information may or may not be of any use: Published by ARC Books, 219
Park Ave S, New York NY 10003. No ISBN as such, but in tiny print
668-01436-9, which resembles ISBN format on more current books.

FWIW, the recepies seem to rely on using a lot of added sugar, and the
techniques have refined a lot over the last 20 years. I made several
crappy batches of beer in the 70's and gave up until last year. What a
difference!

dave t.

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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 01:20:06 -0700
From: pohl at unixg.ubc.ca (Derrick Pohl)
Subject: Wort cooling the slack way

Rolland Everitt (af509 at osfn.rhilinet.gov) writes:

>I do not presently use a wort cooler, and I am wondering just
>how important they are.  After cooking, I remove my hops (bagged),
>cover the pot (cover is reasonably sterile), and let is sit until
>cool (usually overnight).  The trub settles nicely, and I am able
>to siphon the wort off it easily.

My method of low-tech, slack wort cooling is only slightly more complex,
but I think worth the extra effort.  Immediately after the boil, seal the
lid on with plastic wrap and plunge the pot into a bathtub full of cold
water.  Put the pot near the tap and let the water flow at a trickle
(assuming your tub has an overflow drain near the top) to keep cool water
moving around the pot.  This cools a big stainless steel pot holding 5
imperial gallons (6 U.S. gallons) of hot wort down to pitching temperature
in about an hour, maybe less.

Then dump the cool wort through a strainer into the waiting fermentation
vessel - the strainer catches most of the hops and trub and (*bonus*) the
pouring beautifully aerates the wort.

The advantages over your method are: less time for infection to occur, and
the wort quickly cools to a point where the aroma hops will contribute
aroma as they should, not bitterness.

All that said, anyone who was thinking of getting me a wort cooler for
Christmas is still welcome to do so!

- -----
Derrick Pohl <pohl at unixg.ubc.ca>
Vancouver, B.C., Canada



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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 05:41:30 EDT
From: LFCP67A at prodigy.com (MR MARK W LEVESQUE)
Subject: mason jars / bitterness

A friend of mine has loads of the mason type canning jars in his 
basement.  They must be airtight since people use them to can veggies 

etc. for the long term.  Anyone out there ever try using those to 
bottle home brew?  I guess one concern would be strength/thickness of 

the glass.

I'm still a fairly new home brewer and am starting to try out 
hops/grains and extracts. (first few batches were hopped extracts and 

corn sugar).  I used the bags for the grains and the finishing hops 
and boiled the bittering hops directly into the wort.  My problem is 

that I didn't strain before I went to the fermenter or bottles.   
There is a bit of cloudiness and small floaties in the bottles.  And 

the first taste of a pale ale had more bitterness than any beer I've 

tried (I spent several years in the UK and tried lots of 
ales/bitters).  My question is, will this stuff mellow out a little 
with age, and will the floating bits settle to the bottom with time?  

They have been in the bottle for 2-3 weeks. 

Any help/advice is greatly appreciated.........Mark


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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 12:57:34 -0200 (GMT)
From: Rian Rademeyer <rrad at lss.co.za>
Subject: Storage temp of Ales

Hi HBDers
	
I am planning to stockpile beer for the Christmas season. As we are 
going into summer here in the Southern Hemisphere, I would like to know 
the maximum temp an ale can be stored at without damage. I currently 
store at 15 C but my storage temps. in my store room could go as high as 
25 C (outside 35C+ 100F). Would this cause damage over 2-3 months

Rian Rademeyer    -    Cape Town           rrad at mail.lss.co.za    

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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 07:16:13 -0400
From: "Michael D. Fairbrother" <mdf at apollo.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Two-litre Pop Chiller? 


> Mark Moylan, in the latest Zymurgy (p.89), states that frozen 2 litre pop
> bottles can be effective wort chillers; is this true?  Wouldn't the plastic
> melt and/or effect the flavour of the brew?  Has anyone tried this method?
> 

Douglas, I can't say I have tried it, but you can boil water in
a paper cup with a flame (which I did try many years ago), so I wouldn't
think that the plastic would melt, due to the ice cooling it down.


Michael
Derry, NH, U.S.A



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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 95 22:04:02 +1000
From: CHARLIE SCANDRETT <merino at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Styles Vs Eclecticism

Thanks to Dr. Gillian Grafton for the historical record on the flavour  
European Oak. I knew about pitch lined beer barrels but correctly guessed the 
IPA barrels weren't lined because I've never seen a lined wooden  barrel on a 
sailing boat. The endless motion literally polishes it off, the inside is quite 
smooth. The motion and heat would also probably render the beer completely 
flat. My point about the now fashionable sharp bitterness and hop aroma stands. 
The modern IPA style  is a great drop but we can't claim history as authority 
for it.

Algis Korzonas writes,    >Charlie also says:
CS>1/ Why can't an  excellent American Bock beat a very good  Helles Bock in a 
CS>competition? They are close enough to be compared and contest.

>Of course it could, but only if the American Bock was judged as an American
>Bock and the Helles Bock as a Helles Bock.  Head-to-head the American Bock
>(e.g.  Augsburger Bock, Frankenmuth Bock...) would be far too weak and watery 
>compared to Ayinger Mai Bock, Einbecker Mai Ur-Bock or Forschungs St. Jakobus
>Bock.  Judged as American Bocks, these three would be tossed out for being
>too big and too alcoholic for style.

I rest my case! From and outsider's point of view (I have never competed or 
known of a competition, I am outside organized homebrewing) with experience of 
wine competitions, this seems absurd. Wine is grouped into styles (usually 
grape varieties) and judged on excellence. I have never heard of points for 
comformance to style?!

>Finally, Charlie says:
CS>Let the brewer woo the palate within broarder categories!
>Is something broken?  Does something really need fixing? 

Nothings broken, homebrewing and craftbrewing are growing fast and 
eclectically! The Australian wine industry however has been at this craft 
fermenting thing much longer and is well established.  It's hard to get beer 
craft brewing of the ground here.They are technology intensive and exellent by 
world standards. . So much so, that a sizeable number of Australian winemakers 
are working in France teaching techniques! Why? Not because our European 
winemakers are more talented than theirs, but as a very young country, the 
industry has been freed of the shackles of tradition and purists copying 
styles, many of which had flavour profiles containing fermenting flaws. 
(familiar anyone?)

E.G.  A progressive brewer in Burton would be tinkering feverishly about in the 
water lab trying to isolate what is positive for brewing, and what is negative, 
in the ionic soup they call natural water. This way they could treat it to 
achieve greater heights in pleasing the palate.
A craft stylist in the USA would be tinkering just as feverishly trying to 
duplicate the natural Burton water exactly and delving into history to 
replicate the "true" Burton style?

Why? This is OK as a hobby, but where it overlaps into quality commercial 
brewing it seems a little fundamentalist to me. My attitude to styles is that 
they are important reference points in navigating the labyrinths of beer 
flavour. I am amazed they are so important in competition. 

The AHA publishes "The style guidelines are in constant evolution and 
expansion, and the AHA would be the last to say that (they) are the only source 
to use when you brew. <snip> But it isn't gospel.  We change them to accomodate 
suggestions <snip> and to include styles that are newly popular. The guidlines 
are simply a tool, a measuring stick, to help homebrewers compare their own 
brews to the ones they buy and taste."
Bravo !! So why do the evaluations and reviews I read give style so much 
importance?

Charlie (Brisbane, Australia)

""Style' is instead an invention of our imaginations, something that can be 
changed as easily as we change our minds about it."     Rob Lauriston.










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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 08:22:41 -0400
From: MClarke950 at aol.com
Subject: RE: Sanatizing question/Pumpkin Ale/Book ?

Paul Tully (PAUL_TULLY at HP1700.desk.hp.com) asked:

Sanatizing question:
>What is the best sanitizer to use? I recently read in a homebrewing
>book that B-Brite is not a sanitizer, it's a cleanser. Is a household
>bleach solution a better sanitizer to use? Also, has anyone tried the
>new no rinse C-Brite?

I don't know about best, but I use household bleach and Iodaphor, 
seperately.  Bleach is great for cleaning bottles and carboys, It
just about dissolves the yeast caked on the sides.  I also use on
things that will be stored and not used for a while.  I use the
Iodaphor when the beer will be in contact with the sterilized 
surface in short order, racking canes, hoses, carboys *before* 
filling and bottle caps.  

>I also read (same book) that bottles can be sanitized by heating them
>in your oven  at  200 degrees for 10 minutes. Is this a good idea? Does
>anyone use this process?

I bake my bottles at 200F for 15 minutes.  It works great, never had a 
problem.  I do rinse them thoroughly after using them and inspect them
before baking.

>What is the best way to sanitize your bottle caps? Is it necessary to
>boil them or can you just soak them in a sanitizer solution. Won't
>boiling have an effect on the rubber seal inside the cap?

That's why I use diluted Iodaphor solution to soak them in.  The boiling 
*may* affect the rubber seal under the cap.  It did to mine.  If you use 
those special oxygen absorbing caps boiling will ruin them.
  
Pumpkin Ale:
>> Peel and remove seeds from pumpkin and cook until soft. In your brewpot,
>> add your malt, Mt. Hood Hops and cooked pumpkin meat and boil for 30
>> minutes. Add burton Water Salt and Irish Moss and boil for 15 minutes
>> more. Add finishing hops and boil for 5 minutes more.
>>
>what is the procedure for cooking the pumpkin? Do you bake it? Boil
>it? Cut it into larger pieces? Small pieces?

I made a pumpkin ale last year. I "skinned" the pumpkin meat and steamed
it for 10 minutes.  I would steam it until soft.  I used the meat as part
of a mash so YMMV.  

Wade Wallinger posted this not-too-long-ago:
<snip>
>Rinse the pumkin, leave skin on and cut into large sections. Bake in 350f
>oven for 1hr 15min. Remove skin and crush meat. 
<snip>

Good Luck!

Book Question:
Does anyone know where I can get a copy of "Brewing Old New England's
Beer and Wines"?  I think the titles pretty close.

Cheers,

=Mike Clarke in Seattle, WA. USA    (MClarke950 at aol.com)


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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 08:30:12 -0400
From: Robert Waterfall <waterr at rpi.edu>
Subject: re: Concrete Rollers

Todd Kirby said in HBD1860:
>I thought C.D. Pritchard's use of concrete rollers was quite interesting.
<snip>
>Chemicals from concrete dust are supposedly
>harmful to breathe, so I would think you would want to avoid getting it in
>your wort as well. Would it be possible to coat the roller with epoxy or
>polyurethane as a preventative? Comments anyone? Is his beer ruined?

Todd Kirby
- -----------
Todd,

I believe the problem with concrete dust (Portland cement dust) inhalation is
the crystalline silica content.  The effects would be irritation of the lungs
by the physical (not chemical) properties of the dust.  So if C.D. Pritchard
is getting some dust in his grist, it will probably a) increase his brewing
water hardness due to lime content, b) mostly settle out due to alumina and
silica content, and c) cause him no harm unless he snorts his beer. ;^)

Bob Waterfall
Troy, NY, USA

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Date: 19 Oct 1995 08:01:08 GMT
From: "Dan Wilson" <DWILSON3 at EMAIL.USPS.GOV>
Subject: Those Pesky Labels

     A question I've never seen addressed, for the colective wisdom.
     Everyone tells me to soak off those labels. No one has ever mentioned
     why. Private Email works, dwilson3 at email.usps.gov   Standing by to be
     educated. Dan Wilson


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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 12:39:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Paul A. Hausman <paul at lion.com>
Subject: Re: Concrete Roller

> Todd Kirby <mkirby at isnet.is.wfu.edu>
> 
> I thought C.D. Pritchard's use of concrete rollers was quite interesting. 
> Seems like an excellent idea, however I'm curious how much of the flour at
> the end of the grind might have been concrete dust? Did you coat the roller 
> with anything to prevent this problem? Chemicals from concrete dust are 
> supposedly harmful to breathe, so I would think you would want to avoid
> getting it in your wort as well. Would it be possible to coat the roller
> with epoxy or polyurethane as a preventative? Comments anyone? Is his beer
> ruined?

"typical" concrete is primarily silica and carbonate salts. These, as 
well as most mineral dusts are harmful to breath, particularly if in 
very small particle sizes. They tend to accumulate in the lungs and 
cause irritation.  Silica dusts are suspect as contributing to lung 
cancer (similarly to asbestos).  So don't inhale your beer.

As far as ingestion, Silicates is mostly insoluble in water, and 
I suspect also in beer. I would doubt they would get into your finished
product.  Calcium salts should merely add hardness. Might affect style, 
but not toxicity.  I would be more concerned about the toxicity of 
(non-food-grade) epoxies.

- ------------------------------

Paul A. Hausman
paul at lion.com

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Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 9:54:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: wkitt at melpar.esys.com (William H. Kitt, Jr.)
Subject: Fermentation question

I am a novice homebrewer, am concerned that my most recent 
attempt and brew has gone awry, and am looking for advice.

Sunday, 10/15, I began my third batch of homebrew: an amber.
3-4 hours after pitching the yeast, fermentation had obviously 
started (gas was being expelled through the airlock).  By Monday 
morning fermentation was vigorous.  Tuesday morning, the volume of 
gas being expelled was minimal.  This left me wondering if something 
was terribly wrong because vigorous fermentation lasted three+ days
for my first two batches of homebrew.  It is now Wednesday morning 
and fermentation is still taking place (at least gas is being 
expelled via the airlock), albeit at a slow rate.

The one thing that I noticed different from the first two batches 
was the temperature at which fermentation is taking place.  Monday 
night was our first frost, and the room in which I store the fermentation 
bucket is not temperature controlled.  The temperature was about 57'F 
Tuesday afternoon leading me to believe that it was much colder 
Monday night for many hours.  I added a space heater to the room 
Tuesday evening which is keeping the room in the mid 60's(F) in an 
attempt to recover this batch.

Did this much lower than optimal temperature contribute significantly
to the early reduction in fermentation rate?  Have I ruined this batch?  
Can it recover if I stabilize the temperature to the mid-60's(F)?  
Any other comments that could help?

Thanks in advance,


*******************************************************************
William H. Kitt, Jr. (Bill)      * Phone: (703) 560-5000
Sr. Systems Engineer MS N201     *              extension 4490
E-Systems, Falls Church Div.     * FAX:   (703) 280-4627         
7700 Arlington Boulevard         * Internet: wkitt at melpar.esys.com
Falls Church, VA 22046           * Opinions: Are mine alone 
*******************************************************************


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Date:          Thu, 19 Oct 1995 08:34:25 
From: DC at carlsonco.com
Subject:       Finnings (sp?)

I've been brewing in the dark for 6 years.  Six year away from HBD.  
It's nice to be back.

I purchased some finnings in the UK about 4 years ago and finally got 
around to using them in an Oktoberfest this year.  The finnings did 
a great job of clearing the top inch or so of beer in the carboy, but 
the remainder of the beer was very cloudy.  Any thoughts, I followed 
the directions (mix with 1/4 cup of H2O). Do finnings have a shelf 
life?  Private post is fine if this has been hashed to death in past 6 
years.

doug connolly
dc at carlsonco.com

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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 95 10:38:03 EDT
From: Pierre Jelenc <pcj1 at columbia.edu>
Subject: Coming up roses


Andy Walsh <awalsh at crl.com.au> asks:

> Hop Oils
> Can anyone tell me which of linalool and geraniol is the rose-smelling
> one? What does the other smell of?

Geraniol smells of roses. Linalool smells of bergamot. Both rather 
convincingly so,

Pierre

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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 09:35:38 -0500 (CDT)
From: Craig Amundsen <amundsen at biosci.cbs.umn.edu>
Subject: iodophor = ?

Hi -
  The other day I found myself in the local Fleet Farm(tm) (what a _great_ 
store! (#include <std.disclaimer>)), so I strolled over to the dairy section.
It was my intention to buy a gallon of iodophor-based tank sanitizer for $10.
I did find some sanitizer for $10/gallon. It was a no rinse variety and had
a certain amount of "titratable iodine" in it. The problem is that the label
didn't have the word "iodophor". It did have a very long chemical name (no
doubt IUPAC approved) that started with iodine. Does anyone know the actual 
chemical name for iodophor? I really want to start using iodophor to sanitize,
and $10/gallon is the right price, but I want to actually buy iodophor.
TIA
 - Craig
- -- 
+-----------------------------+------------------------------------------------+
| Craig Amundsen              | DILBERT - Sometimes I wonder if it's ethical   |
| amundsen at biosci.cbs.umn.edu |           to do these genetic experiments. But |
| (612) 624-2704              |           I rationalize it because it will     |
| 250 Biological Sciences     |           improve the quality of life.         |
| 1445 Gortner Avenue         | DOGBERT - What are you making?                 |
| Saint Paul, MN 55108        | DILBERT - Skunkopotamus.                       |
+-----------------------------+------------------------------------------------+

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Date: Thu, 19 Oct 95 10:23:48 -0400
From: "Michael R. Swan" <mswan at fdic.gov>
Subject: Vienna malt---Has the guality improved?

	I just finished George and Laurie Fix's excellent book on _Marzen-
Oktoberfest-Vienna_ beers (1991) and had a question:

	On page 35 of the book, the authors state: "What is truly 
disappointing is that Vienna malt from Europe, while generally made from two-
row barley, is not that much better than Vienna malt made in the United 
States from six-row barley."

	Because of this, the authors recommend making Vienna and Oktoberfest 
beers using only Pilsener quality two-row pale malt supplemented by German 
light and dark crystal malt and English caramel malt.

	My question is:  Has the quality of Vienna malt improved since this 
book was published?  I have seen a number of recent recipes for 
Vienna/Oktoberfest beers and they seem to use Munich and/or Vienna malts.  
Does anyone have any brand recommendations for this malt or should I just 
stick to Pilsener and crystal malts when making these beers?  Thanks in 
advance.

************************************************************************
* Mike Swan                     * "The path of the righteous man is    *
* Dallas, Texas                 * beset on all sides by the inequities *
* mswan at fdic.gov                * of the selfish and the tyranny of    *
* "My views are my own"         * evil men."  Pulp Fiction             *
************************************************************************

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1862, 10/20/95