FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Re: Dissolving oxygen (John DeCarlo              )
  Re: GLATT MILLS (Bird)
  GABF comments (Bryan L. Gros)
  Wort O2/sugars (Jim Busch)
  Alecost, a.k.a. Costmary (Richard Johnson)
  Styles,  Judging and the AHA (Ken Schroeder)
  Pump Sale (GRMarkel)
  RE: Swollen bags of Breiss LME (James Page is a great co.!) (Brian Pickerill)
  Using a Blowoff hose...good idea? (Gene Rafter)
  Mail-Order comments (Dave Riedel)
  slants, wort storage, complex sugars ("Tracy Aquilla")
  Williams Oatmeal Stout Extract (David Turner)
  A new way to Sparge without a hot liqour back ("Michael Wood")
  'bred' dog ("Wallinger, W. A.")
  competitions and judges (Bryan L. Gros)
  smearing stabs (Dan McConnell)
  FREE Book...GONE! ("Jeffrey W. Van Deusen")
  FREE Book - GONE ("Jeffrey W. Van Deusen")
  lauter outflow control (Q) (Mike Lelivelt)
  Re: Styles,  Judging and the AHA (Algis R Korzonas)
  Celis Bottles... Too Light? (Phil Brushaber)
  low/no alcohol beer (Eric Palmer)
  Re:     Glatt (Tim Fields)
  Sankey tap for FREE (Rich Hampo)
  Custom Wooden Beer Mugs (Keith Frank)
  Belgian Pale malt (LARSEN_JIM)
  Sluggish fermentation due to 158 deg mash or premature racking? (hadleyse)
  Re: How to use spent grains... ("David W. Parkin")
  re:  iodophors safe? / bottle cap sanitation / toasting malt (Keith Frank)
  suggested list etiquette (Rolland Everitt)
  Those French beers (Pierre Jelenc)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 25 Oct 95 12:38:19 EST
From: John DeCarlo <jdecarlo at mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Dissolving oxygen

Ulick Stafford is concerned about DO and effect of exposure to air and the 
shape of the tank used for the tests.

I cited Dr. George Fix's article in HBD 1446, but some may find it hard to 
go back and read it.  So I will quote one other portion that is relevant to 
Ulick's concern:

"All tests were done with a Zahm and Nagel tank with a .2 micron diffusing stone
attached to the gas line. I am going to present a number of slides in my talk  
at the AHA conference in Denver, and one of them will show this particular     
setup."

So, if anyone attended the AHA talk in Denver last year, or is familiar with
what a "Zahm and Nagel tank" is, perhaps they can enlighten Ulick and the 
rest of us.

John DeCarlo, MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA--My views are my own
Fidonet:  1:109/131  Internet:  jdecarlo at mitre.org


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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 95 10:46:05 MDT
From: roberts at Rt66.com (Bird)
Subject: Re: GLATT MILLS

>>>>> "Evan" == Evan Kraus <ejk at bselab.bls.com> writes:

    Evan> Over the weekend while grinding some malt with my Glatt mill
    Evan> I managed to break the gears.  Well in my quest to find some
    Evan> new ones I guess I am gonna have to buy a new mill.  Looks
    Evan> like GLATT bailed !!!!!  I have 2 Phone #s for GLATT and
    Evan> both are disconnected !!!  So if U have a GLATT mill and
    Evan> unless U know who manufactured the gears for GLATT or if U
    Evan> know who might have a large supply of them left!!  U are SOL
    Evan> !!!

    Evan> By the way does anyone know who might have the gears or
    Evan> where GREG GLATT is ???  Evan


Oh, oh. I just bought one last week: used it only once so far.
Damn, better treat it nice...

- --Doug

- -- 

"24 hours in a day...24 beers in a case...coincidence?"

Doug Roberts
roberts at rt66.com

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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 10:36:05 -0700
From: bgros at mindseye.berkeley.edu (Bryan L. Gros)
Subject: GABF comments

Regarding the comment on the number of substyles of American
lager, I would agree that these keep the big brewers happy.  I believe
that they do contribute to the festival, at least Coors.

I did notice that the gold and silver in American Brown were both
won by red beers.  Pete's Wicked, which I though basically defined
the style of American Brown, took third.  It seems from visiting
brewpubs that a red ale category needs to be created, although I'm
not sure how it differs from pale ale except for a narrower range
in color.

                                                - Bryan
                                                  bgros at mindseye.berkeley.edu


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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 13:44:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Wort O2/sugars

Ulick once again takes up the subject of wort oxygen:

<I noticed in some postings that there is a report that it is impossible 
<to oxygenate wort to a harmful level using oxygen.  This seems to be 
<slightly erroneous.  The maximum amount that can be dissolved using pure 
<oxygen at atmospheric pressure is around 35 ppm at normal wort temperatures.
<I have read that 14 ppm is an optimum oxygen level, and levels over 20 ppm 
<are harmful.

Since Ulick never believes Dr. Fix's data I thought I would point out
that another noted brewing scientist, Dr. Manfred Moll of the University
of Nancy, France has published a textbook on brewing.  This text was originally
published in 1991 in France and has been translated to English in 1994. (for
more on this text, see my book review in the next issue of Brewing Techniques).
In this text, "Beers and Coolers" on page 162 Dr. Moll prints a table of
solubility of oxygen in water and wort at different temperatures at 1 ATM
pressure.  This table is actually from Krauss, 1967.  The amount of DO
in 12P wort varied from 7.4 mg/L at 20C to 11.6 mg/L at 0C.  Moll goes on
to note that accurate measurement is difficult at best and suggests methods
to minimize the causes of error to obtain reliable DO levels.  These numbers
agree very favorably with Dr. Fix's data.  Moll also notes that optimum
DO levels vary with yeast strain between 4-12 mg/L.  In my experience levels
between 4-8 mg/L are achieved in practice.  Many lager brewers aim for
8 mg/L, while other strains are happy with only 4, and it just so happens
that 8 is the maximum level hit at 15C. Nature has been very kind to 
brewers indeed.

Ken asks about complex sugars:

<Re: the "complex unfermentable sugars" mentioned by Miller

3-6% of wort sugars are of the 'non-standard' variety.  Standard being:
maltose, sucrose, fructose, maltotriose and glucose.  Yeast strains vary
as to thier ability to ferment the minor wort sugars.  The unfermentable
complex sugars are: pentoses; xylose, arabinose and ribose...trisaccharides
panose and isopanose (up to 40% can be fermented by some yeasts).  The 
disaccharide melibose is only fermented by lager yeasts.  The bulk of
the control any brewer has is surely in the alpha-glucans or dextrin ratio.
This has been the focus of the recent discussion here of beta and alpha
amylase optimums to control fermentability.  I wouldnt be concerned about
the minor wort sugar constituants other than as an intellectual excercise.

Good brewing,

Jim Busch
Colesville, Md
busch at mews.gsfc.nasa.gov


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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 10:57:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Richard Johnson <richard at clark.edu>
Subject: Alecost, a.k.a. Costmary


Fellow HBers,   

Appealing to your collective wisdom, I would like to learn
about the use of Alecost as a bittering agent in beer.
	
My information to date, from the cultivator, is that it 
is a member of the chrysanthemum family, and was used for
bittering before the introduction of hops.  

Any info on selecting an "Alecost rate", old recipes, etc.
might come in handy and win me an opportunity to experiment
with this crop.

Thanks.        Richard 
	





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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 95 10:35:03 PDT
From: kens at lan.nsc.com (Ken Schroeder)
Subject: Styles,  Judging and the AHA 

Our freinds Al K and Charlie S. are pushing the styles thread even further.
Al states :  "Consider the score to be based upon two factors: 1) how
well the beer represents the style into which it was entered, and 2) how
few other flaws the beer has (infections, oxidation, staling, etc.). "
What Al said is quite true, but I believe Al has understated the importance
a beer's character, especially in terms of flavor and overall impression.
A beer may exhibit all the characteristic of a style and have absolutly
no flaws, yet be an "uninteresting" beer. It is the variations within the
style that can make a beer excell. This is how "landmark" or outstanding
examples of a style become recognized and popular. In other words, this is 
how Sierra Nevada Pale Ale and Celis Wit gained their reputation. These 
beers have qualities that their competitors do not. Brewing just to style 
can produce a technically perfect beer that is uninteresting yet entirely 
drinkable. This type of beer will score well in a competition but, a beer
that developes one or more characteristic of a style in a unique way will 
outscore our "true to style" beer. A beer should "make a statement" to be a 
truely great. A pale ale that has good hop balance could be a good beer, but 
I'll reach for the one that has the interesting malt profile to go along with 
that balance (and score it higher for the malt profile the other beers 
lacked).

Some judges tend to stick to their interpitation of a style. Some style 
description help validate what may be restricting definition. One example
is the American Pale Ale. The AHA style guideline states "Use of American
hops such as Cascade, Willamette, Centennial, ect." Some judges interpet 
this to "no Cascade, it's not an American Pale Ale." The guidelines
clearly states "Ameican Hops." At times, I like to use Crystal and/or 
Columbus or some other American hop other than Cascade. Sometimes, I loose
points for this. Sometimes the use of the non-Cascade hops is noticed and
the judge notes this on the score sheet and may even give a little higher 
score for the "innovation". In most cases, this is the judge, not the 
guideline or the competition. Such is life in the competition. 

Al points out " we the homebrewing and beer judging community
determine a set of rather narrow guidelines which have some inertia and
therefore do not change with the wind.  To have constanly changing,
broad guidelines would be a disservice to both brewers and judges and
would make their respective "jobs" far more difficult." Al should agree 
that this does not mean that style definitions and catagorization are static, 
just difficult to change. It takes a lot of clear examples, in terms of 
brewed beer, and a lot of recognition at the local competition level and 
a whole lot of brewers and judges asking for a new style before a national 
organization (AHA or BJCP) will be able to change catagories. It would appear 
that the idea of an "open" or "other" sub-style in certain style catagories
is gaining popularity. Many brewers have brewed beers that do not fit
cleanly into a current catagory. Some of these are great beers that
have character and are capable of winning competitions. Some competitions
allow for this, others don't. Those "new styles" may become a "recognized"
style if it stands up to time and popularity. Brewer beware that just adding 
more hops to a beer, may not justify creating a  new style with the name of
American or Californian. (American Alt anyone?) 


Al comments " but the AHA is very much a dictatorship and their claims of 
responsiveness to their membership are more marketing than reality." Though 
the wording may be a bit harsh, this appears to be the what has gone on in 
the recent past. I am hoping that the AHA will take action on the issues that 
confront the organization. I've been waiting awhile and have only seen an 
improvement in their money making magazine and little to no improvement in 
the services offered to brewers and homebrew clubs. As with competitions,
you can choose to participate or not. (IMHO, belonging to the AHA means you
get to enter some competitions at a lower entry fee and you get a magazine 
to read, and that's about all. Sorry if that pissed off anyone.)

Perhaps Al's best statement is his closer: "I think that as you learn more 
about beer and styles, you will better understand the importance of them."
Well put Al.


Ken Schroeder
Sequoia Brewing,   Redwood City, Ca.	(not a member of the AoB or AHA)

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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 14:13:02 -0400
From: GRMarkel at aol.com
Subject: Pump Sale

I just received a sale paper from MSC (Manhatten Supply Co.) featuring pumps.
What caught my eye was the price of a Little Giant magnetic coupled pump
model 3X-MDX. This model has been mentioned several times in the HBD and
seems to be generally accepted as a good pump for brewing systems. The
description is as follows:
"Model 3X-MDX  - 115v
Cast magnet housing/base combination. 5/8" OD smooth discharge and intake
ports. Open fan-cooled motor has sleeve bearings. Thermally protected. 6'
power cord w/ 3-prong plug. 5.8 GPM  at  1', 7' shut-off, 3.0 psi.  1/50 HP.,
 .94 amp motor. Weight 5.5 lb."

Sale price $68.68   ordering number 09279704

Seemed like a good price to me.

The MSC phone is 800-645-7270

Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with MSC other that being a customer from
time to time.

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Date-Warning: Date header was inserted by BSUVC.bsu.edu
From: 00bkpickeril at bsuvc.bsu.edu (Brian Pickerill)
Subject: RE: Swollen bags of Breiss LME (James Page is a great co.!)

A few days ago I wrote...
 ...
>Subject line sez it though, several of the bags are swollen now, and there
>was way too much air in the bag (IMHO).  All of the bags have air in them
>and >the swollen ones in particular are at least 1/3 air.  I will try to
>use this up >quickly, but I'm a bit concerned about it.  I haven't called
>them about it yet.  >BTW, the bags have not gotten hot or set in the
>sunlight or anything like that.  >Also, I brewed with a couple of bags of
>it already and it seems OK.  What do >you think about this?
 ...
I called James Page about this today and they are sending me new extract!
I'm really pleased about this, especially since the bags are continuing to
swell, and two have now burst.  A couple of people wrote to tell me that
this has been a problem this year.  Apparently the problem was at
Breiss/NWern and was limited to a particular type of extract.  I just
wanted to write back since I mentioned James Page online and to say that
this is great service and I will definitely order from them again!

<Standard disclaimers apply, I'm just a very satisfied customer...>

- --Brian Pickerill, Muncie, IN <00bkpickeril at bsuvc.bsu.edu>



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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 14:40:35 -0500 (CDT)
From: Gene Rafter <grafter at creighton.edu>
Subject: Using a Blowoff hose...good idea?

This being my third article I have published I would first like to thank 
all those who responded..especially John McCafferty who corrected me in 
my etiquette of using ALL CAPS BECAUSE IT SOUNDS LIKE I AM SHOUTING AT 
YOU!!! Well I hope I did not offend anybody.
	My ? is have many of you who have used the blowoff method 
described in The Complete Homebrew Guide found any benefit from this 
besides reducing the risk of contamination?  I made an Octoberfest 2 
weeks ago and yea it was kind of fun watching the carboy blowoff the 
Kreausen and all but when I transfered to a secondary carboy I noticed 
how much I lost.  I'm not going to notice anything till I try my beer but 
I thought I would ask a more experienced brewmeister what he/she thinks 
of this method.  
Thanks again everyone and I promise not to use large caps unless I feel 
like shouting of course (just kidden)- no offense John.  Your not an 
English or Grammer Teacher are you?  If so I'm in a lot of trouble.  Take 
care and good luck with all your brew ha-has.
Gene Rafterx

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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 12:43:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dave Riedel <RIEDEL at ios.bc.ca>
Subject: Mail-Order comments

Gene Rafter asks about mail order...

I recently ordered some stuff from St. Patrick's of Austin, Texas.  I
placed the order on a Monday and received the parcel the following Monday.
I live in BC, Canada, (St. Pat's uses air mail for foreign orders); I think 
that's pretty decent delivery time (kudos to the much-maligned US and Canadian 
Postal systems!).  For US orders, St. Pat's uses UPS.  
Their number is:  1-800-448-4224 (no affiliation etc etc)

A question for the Canadian HBDers, especially those on the west coast....
Where do you people get your supplies?  I find Victoria has a very poor
selection of stuff.  I had to use St. Pat's to get a decent sized sparging
bag and idophor.

On a shamefully, non-beer-related note (non-Canadians page down):

Douglas signs off:
>Douglas in Montreal, Canada  --  but for how long ... 

Hang in there Douglas, vote no and convince your friends to also!
(NOBODY I know wants to see separation).

Cheers,
Dave Riedel
Victoria, BC  CANADA

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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 95 16:26:53 EDT
From: "Tracy Aquilla" <aquilla at salus.med.uvm.edu>
Subject: slants, wort storage, complex sugars

In digest #1866:
From: hollen at vigra.com
Subject: Slant Inoculation
Dion says:
>Could people please comment on the advantages/disadvantages of the two
>methods of slant inoculation, smearing on top of surface vs. embedding
>the loop into the agar?

These are actually two different methods, one is a slant, the other is a
stab. Stabs tend to remain viable longer but it's easier to get more
inoculum from a slant. I think slants are more appropriate for yeast cultures.

From: "Michael A. Owings" <mikey at waste.com>
Subject: Wort Storage
Michael says:
>it would be nice to be able to break up the brewing session over 2 days -- mash
>and sparge on one day,  boil, cool and pitch on another.
>In order to do this,  I would need to be able to store the wort for some 
>period of time without risk of substantial infection or oxidation of the 
>wort. So waddaya think?  Will this work?  Have any of you tried this?  How long
>can the wort be stored this way?

It can be done, but infection is the biggest problem. I've never stored wort
longer than overnight. The main problem is, you can't really make sterile
wort; there's always going to be something in there and after a day or two
it will probably begin to grow, even at low temperature. A month is out of
the question.

From: Ken Willing <kwilling at laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Subject: "Complex unfermentable sugars": What are they?
Ken says;
>Re: the "complex unfermentable sugars" mentioned by Miller (CHHB, p.127) as
>yielded by alpha amylase action (in addition to the yield of dextrins &
>simple sugars):  What are these complex sugars, exactly?  Maltotetraose? 
>Anything else? Do they indeed, in and of themselves, give a characteristic
>(malty?) flavor, in addition to their sweetness?
>So is it accurate to say that a mash schedule favoring alpha amylase
>activity should result in a *malty* sweetness?

The "complex unfermentable sugars" to which you refer are polysaccharides
much more complex than maltotetraose (eg. amylose, amylopectin, alpha
glucans, other various starch 'fragments') and do not have any (sweet or
otherwise) flavors associated with them. A mash schedule which favors alpha
amylase will result in a dextrinous wort and generally give lower apparent
attenuation, thus producing a beer with more body, but not necessarily more
"sweetness".

    Tracy A. in Vermont

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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 95 16:24:09 EDT
From: dturner at tethys.sca.com (David Turner)
Subject: Williams Oatmeal Stout Extract

Greetings,

I am curious about the Oatmeal Stout Extract from Williams Brewing Supply
in San Leandro, California.  As with all their liquid extracts, it is sold
in a six pound (NOT 3 kg) pouch.

I would like to hear from anyone who has used this product, especially 
regarding successful recipies based on it.  Specialty grains, yeast, etc.

Many thanks in advance to all contributors...DT

- ---
David Turner
dturner at sca.com

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Date:          Wed, 25 Oct 1995 14:39:09 +8
From: "Michael Wood" <thor at expressway.com>
Subject:       A new way to Sparge without a hot liqour back

I've been in the mood to tinker about again and this time the target 
is the sparging apparatus. I currently have a 3 tiered converted 
sankey keg system which is gravity feed. The vessels are the Hot 
liquor back, the Mash tun and the Boiling kettle. Since its a gravity 
feed system, the top of the liqour back gets quite high in the air 
making it difficult to check temperatures and fill.

Heres what I want to build. Like most things, its probably already 
been thought off or already tried....

Why cant I eliminate the hot liquor back and instead get some kind of 
inline heating element like the kind for a coffee maker? The sparging 
is supposed to be done slowly and it seems like the same design as a 
coffee maker at this stage. I could completely rid myself of the 
hot liqour back and there practically no time needed in getting the 
sparge going. 

I dont know what this kind of heater is called. Probably something 
like a column heater or something. Has anyone tried something like 
this? What would the draw backs be? Is there a commerical source out 
there that I could regulate the temperature, say like a under the 
sink instant hot water heater or something? TIA

THOR

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Date: 25 Oct 1995 14:41:14 PDT
From: "Wallinger, W. A." <WAWA at chevron.com>
Subject: 'bred' dog


From: Wallinger, W. A. (Wade)
To:  OPEN ADDRESSING SERVI-OPENADDR
Subject:  'bred' dog
Date: 1995-10-25 16:33
Priority:

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Russell says,
> Feeble attempts at humor aside, I think there is a lesson in the dog
judging
> analogy.  I don't know the ins and outs of AKC rules (American Kennel
Club,
> the folks who "officially" state whether a dog is a certain breed), but
the
> rules are (or were) restrictive enough that significant inbreeding
occured,
> and certain breeds of dogs (Golden Retreivers and Cocker Spaniels come to
> mind) which used to be among the more intelligent are now notoriously
stupid
> and often have other health problems attributable to inbreeding

does this have something to do with repitching (significantly inbreeding)
yeast?
i'm trying to picture my munich helles breeding with my american ipa to
create
a woodsy german hellifiknow. perhaps i could get by with one less keg.

Wade Wallinger, brewing contraband on the mississippi Gulf Coast


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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 15:58:38 -0700
From: bgros at mindseye.berkeley.edu (Bryan L. Gros)
Subject: competitions and judges

From: "Edmund C. Hack" <echack at crl.com>
>I'm a relavitely new homebrewer (one year) and Beer Geek (tm), who is also 
>learning to become a Wine Snob (tm). One thing that I have learned about 
>wine in the reading of Wine Spectator over the last year, is that in wine 
>judging, there is a style conformance being enforced. It is unwritten, 
>changes, and greatly influences commercial winemaking. For example, the 
>whites are becoming fruitier and less dry due to style preferences of 
>judges at several important competitions in the US.

This is an interesting comment.  I spoke to a winemaker last year who works
for a small winery in Napa Valley.  He complained about competitions and the
lack of knowledge of the judges. He tries to make a Champagne-style
sparkling wine, which he says in drier and tarter than the sparkling wines
being produced by Gloria Ferrer and Korbell.  The latter sparkling wines are
made in the "American" style and are very light and fruity.  He says judges
generally do not recognize this difference.

The same can be said with some beer judges.  I entered a porter in a 
competition last year and, while I was stewarding another table, I could
overhear the judges discussing my beer.  Two judges liked it a lot while
the third judge marked it down for having a slight roasted barley flavor
and too many hops.  The other judges said the beer compared favorably to
Anchor Porter, which has some of these "stout characteristics".  So, in
competitions, a lot of judges preferences show through on the scoresheets
rather than the style descriptions that the competition is using.

                                                - Bryan
                                                  bgros at mindseye.berkeley.edu


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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 20:11:50 -0500
From: danmcc at umich.edu (Dan McConnell)
Subject: smearing stabs

From: hollen at vigra.com

>Could people please comment on the advantages/disadvantages of the two
>methods of slant inoculation, smearing on top of surface vs. embedding
>the loop into the agar?

Let me take a stab at this one.

Smears:
+  easy to see the culture
+  easy to see when the culture is contaminated
+++easy to subculture to another slant or innoculate wort
     (easy is good when you want to reduce the chances of contamination)
+  less likely to bend your loop
 -  must be recultured more frequently


Stabs:
+++longer term viability
+  less agar is needed (1 mL stab cultures are fine, 1 mL slants are a pain)
 -  harder to use
 -  harder to see contamination
 -  more likely to redesign (bend) your nickel or nichrome loop

Of course, when one uses gelatine to solidify wort what happens most often
is a hybrid of the two techniques.   Attempting to gently smear, I usually
plow it up like a farmer.  I don't like gelatine, except for fining beer.

DanMcC

1942-1995. Strange enough maybe, but not nearly long enough.



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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 20:20:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Jeffrey W. Van Deusen" <VANDEUSEN001 at WCSUB.CTSTATEU.EDU>
Subject: FREE Book...GONE!




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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 20:48:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Jeffrey W. Van Deusen" <VANDEUSEN001 at WCSUB.CTSTATEU.EDU>
Subject: FREE Book - GONE


Let's try this again (sorry for the above mistake)...

******************Update on the free book giveaway*********************

It really was no joke. The book will be mailed tomorrow to the lucky
winner!

I only had 14 replies...expected more. Oh well.

Late breaking inside information from the New England Brewing Co. in
South Norwalk, CT : 

ALL their brews are fermented with the Wyeast 2112 "Steam" yeast strain.
By "all" their beer, I mean all: those labeled as both "ale" and "lager". 

Don't get me wrong - I'm not knocking their product, in fact I enjoy
most of their beer. It's only said as matter-of-fact. I had lunch 
at their newly opened brewpub today, and spoke with one of their brewers
who gave me the scoop. Interesting to say the least. I wonder if any of the
other micros do the same?

Jeffrey W. Van Deusen
Danbury, CT


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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 21:38:25 -0400
From: lelivelt at med.unc.edu (Mike Lelivelt)
Subject: lauter outflow control (Q)

I've been curious for a number of months as how individuals control the
outflow of their lauter-tuns.  This is obviously desirable so as one might
control the rate at which liquid flows through the grain bed and
potentially acheive better extraction rates.  Though too slow is
undesirable as well as it can increase tannin extraction.  Gadgets I have
used, which are essentially inline regulators, have aerated the wort (based
soley on visual determination) at unacceptable levels.  Does anyone have a
better solution to this?

Currently I'm using the bucket in a bucket lauter-tun.  This provides a
fairly deep grain bed, thus producing a slow enough flow as this is not a
major problem.  However, individuals who use a rectanglar cooler, which
would produce a shallow bed, must deal with this problem.

TIA, Mike

=======================================================================
Mike Lelivelt                                      lelivelt at med.unc.edu
Univ of North Carolina at Chapel Hill                 919-408-0451 home
Dept of Microbiology & Immunology                  BJCP Certified Judge
=======================================================================



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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 95 13:31:08 CDT
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: Re: Styles,  Judging and the AHA

First of all, let me explain to those who might wonder how this email
got into the same HBD as Ken's which this email quotes: Ken sent me
a copy of his post.

Ken writes:
>Our freinds Al K and Charlie S. are pushing the styles thread even further.
>Al states :  "Consider the score to be based upon two factors: 1) how
>well the beer represents the style into which it was entered, and 2) how
>few other flaws the beer has (infections, oxidation, staling, etc.). "
>What Al said is quite true, but I believe Al has understated the importance
>a beer's character, especially in terms of flavor and overall impression.
>A beer may exhibit all the characteristic of a style and have absolutly
>no flaws, yet be an "uninteresting" beer. It is the variations within the
>style that can make a beer excell. This is how "landmark" or outstanding
>examples of a style become recognized and popular.
<snip>

I agree 100%.  In fact, I believe that a beer that has no flaws and fits
perfectly in a subcategory, but lacks "wonderfullness" is no better than
about a 42 or 43 out of 50.  To me, where a beer lands in the 40's is
a measure of how much of this "wonderfullness" the beer has.  A lot goes
into this and I'm afraid that nobody can explain what causes a particular
recipe to have that certain something.  Also, some brewers seem to be able
to formulate a recipe like this on a regular basis and others less
frequently.  I feel that Dennis Davison seems to be able to formulate some
of that "wonderfullness" into many of his beers, whereas I seem to hit it
on rare occasions.

>that developes one or more characteristic of a style in a unique way will 
>outscore our "true to style" beer. A beer should "make a statement" to be a 
>truely great. A pale ale that has good hop balance could be a good beer, but 
>I'll reach for the one that has the interesting malt profile to go along with 
>that balance (and score it higher for the malt profile the other beers 
>lacked).

Yes.  Also, mind you that I don't think Ken means to say that the beer has
to be dominated by that unique character.  Using Ken's example style, Pale
Ale, surely hops should dominate, but if the malt profile (which should still
be in the background) has some interesting complexity, that would help that
beer "make a statement."  Subtle is good!

>more hops to a beer, may not justify creating a  new style with the name of
>American or Californian. (American Alt anyone?) 

Surely Ken doesn't mean that "American Alt" has more hops than Duesseldorfer
Alt!!!  It has far less... far less malt too.

I like the idea of an "Other" category in competitions.  Surely both
Charlies would approve (P. and S.) especially given that Charlie P's
style of brewing is ready made for this category.  Lambiek/Lambic Barleywine
anyone?  If the Nationals begin to draw 137 Doppel-Dunkel-Raspberry-Weizens
every year, I'll bet they split it off into it's own category.

Send your suggestions to James Spence at   james at aob.org
 AND Tim Dawson at  tim at strange.mv.com

Al.

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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 95 20:53:00 -0600
From: phil.brushaber at lunatic.com (Phil Brushaber)
Subject: Celis Bottles... Too Light?


I'm starting to wonder if Celis bottles (specifically Celis Pale Bock)
are too light (not dark enough brown) for homebrewing.

I brewed a batch of Pale American Lager and bottled it in Celis bottles.
I  stored it in restaurant-refrigerator which has glass doors. This
refrigerator is in my garage and does not get direct sunlight, but it
does get reflected sunlight for a small portion of the day. The beer I
stored in the fridge was at first just fine, but after a while the
bottles in front started tasting kind of skunky.

Anybody else had a bad experience with Celis bottles. I hope I have some
other problem because I love Celis Pale Bock and the lables soak off
rather easily. If the bottles are indeed deemed too light I'll have to
go back to drinking Sam Adams when I buy commercial beer.

Phil Brushaber (phil.brushaber at lunatic.com)
Dallas, Texas

- ----
The Lunatic Fringe * Richardson, TX * 214-235-5288 * Home Of FringeNet

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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 95 22:46:25 PDT
From: palmer at San-Jose.ate.slb.com (Eric Palmer)
Subject: low/no alcohol beer

The October issue of "BREW your own" Magazine had an article on no or low
alcohol beer. The method is simply to brew your beer as usual up to
the point it's ready for bottling and then cook it in the oven (or 
stove top) at 180deg for 20-30 min. to boil off the alcohol.  Of course,
you can get rid of all of it or some it by regulating the time.

Question --- Has anyone tried this? If so, what's it do to flavor? I
have trouble thinking this simple process won't totally trash an
otherwise good (if not great) beer.

Let me pose another question. Say you want to cut back on alcohol with
out resorting to the brutality described above. But, at the same time
you don't want a wimpy beer.  What would be the effect of simply 
cutting way back on extract (or grain) as if you were making a light 
2-3% ale but adding a moderate amount of dark specialty grains for 
color and flavor. The darker grains contribute less fermentables
than the lighter grains due to roasting effects. Then you could
also add a good measure of dextrin malt powder, say 3-4 oz for
additional body. And, of course you could still go crazy with
hops according to taste.

If I had to guess what the problem with this approach would be,
it might be that you'd have a beer that's the equivalent to the
really cheap chocolate candy that looks like Hershey's but 
tastes like cardboard because it's been watered down with
some kind of fillers and expanders to bulk it up. In fact I
don't think even Hershey's tastes as rich as it used to.

Thoughts?

Eric

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Date: 26 Oct 95 06:50:23 EDT
From: Tim Fields <74247.551 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Re:     Glatt

In #1866, ejk at bselab.bls.com (Evan Kraus) writes:

>Over the weekend while grinding some malt with my Glatt mill
>I managed to break the gears.
>Well in my quest to find some new ones I guess I am gonna have to
>buy a new mill.
>Looks like GLATT bailed !!!!!
>I have 2 Phone #s for GLATT and both are disconnected !!!
They notified my homebrew supply store (which sold the Glatt mills) that 
they were going out of business.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Reeb!"

  - Tim Fields ... Fairfax, VA
    
     74247.551 at compuserve.com _or_ timfields at aol.com (weekends)
     timf at relay.com (non-brewing time)



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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 08:22:35 -0400
From: rhampo at ford.com (Rich Hampo)
Subject: Sankey tap for FREE

Howdy all,

I've got a sankey tap (used) that came with my super-duper
beer fridge. I use cornies, so the snakey tap is
useless to me. First one to offer a homebrew or two
gets it for free. I live in Livonia, MI and work at
Ford in Dearborn, MI. I'd prefer you pick it up rather
than mailing it.

Brew on!

Richard Hampo
H&H Brewing

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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 07:44:03 -0500
From: keithfrank at dow.com (Keith Frank)
Subject: Custom Wooden Beer Mugs

A friend is considering making these - for contest awards, dust collectors 
for the beer glass shelf, and perhaps even for drinking out of.  He wanted 
to pose a few questions before trying:
 - Is anyone interested in these?
 - Does anyone know if this is already being done?  Where and by whom?

Thanks for the bandwidth patience.  Private e-mail to usdowq6c at ibmmail.com.

Bruce DeBolt
Lake Jackson, TX

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Date: 26 Oct 95 05:40:00 -0700
From: LARSEN_JIM at Tandem.COM
Subject: Belgian Pale malt


Phil,

I read with interest Mr. Seitz's outstanding Belgian Beer Page
(http://mashtun.jpl.nasa.gov/beer/belg/belg.html), which brought up a
point that's been bothering me. In his discussion of doubles, Phil notes
the exclusive use pilsner base malt: "As with all Belgian beers the base
should be pilsner malt...".

My questions is, "What do the Belgians use pale malt for?" I've known a
number of US homebrewers (including me) that use it for British ales
with good results, but I've never seen a Belgian recipe call for pale
malt. Just what do they do with it? Sell it to the Americans?

Any light you could shed would be appreciated.

Jim



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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 95 09:23:57 EDT
From: hadleyse at pweh.com
Subject: Sluggish fermentation due to 158 deg mash or premature racking?

Has anyone run into problems with sluggish fermentations from racking
off the cold break 24 hours after pitching but just prior to high
kraeusen?  I've brewed about 20 all grain batches and always use a
starter for the yeast.  This time, however, I noticed an excessive
amount of gnarly looking cold break floating near the surface in the
carboy.  Being concerned that the yeast may metabolize this into fusel
alcohols, I racked it at impending high kraeusen.  I'm beginning to wish
I hadn't because now 4 days later, the most vigorous signs of
fermentation has been 1/4" of kraeusen with 1 bubble through the airlock
every 20 sec.  I usually get a few inches of kraeusen and 1 bubble per
second through the airlock.  Another thing I did differently this time
was a variable temp mash schedule.  I spent 15 min at 140 and 45 min at
158.  Maybe the lower fermentation activity is attributed to less
fermentables in the wort?  Should I not worry or repitch?  Thanks in
advance.

Scott Hadley  Hartford, CT

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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 08:27:59 -0500
From: "David W. Parkin" <dwparkin at mmm.com>
Subject: Re: How to use spent grains...

> I was wondering if any of you use your spent grains after you brew for 
>anything. Maybe I am just conservative but there must be something I can do 
>with these grains after mashing. Any ideas?

Bob,  I had the same problem with thegrains I was accumulating.  Looking at
the grains,  I thought there most be something that can be done with them.
I received two basic answers to the question;  Compost or make bread.

Composting works for me since I am a gardener and I did collect some bread
recipies (my wife is a big time bread maker)  but somehow,  I can't get her
interested in using them.  For now I will keep composting.

DWP


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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 08:28:12 -0500
From: keithfrank at dow.com (Keith Frank)
Subject: re:  iodophors safe? / bottle cap sanitation / toasting malt

Ulick Stafford asked about iodophor safety yesterday and availability in 
Europe.  I can't help with Europe, but do have some general comments about 
iodophors.

Ulick is probably aware of what follows but maybe some others reading aren't.
Last year I talked to a professor who consulted for food/beverage cos. 
regarding sanitizers.  I also talked with a manufacturer of iodophors.  
Both said that the general U.S. FDA requirements (in dairy industry, 
I believe) for iodophor sanitation is that it NOT BE RINSED.  They are 
typically formulated not to be rinsed.  So if you've eaten cheese or drank 
milk (in the U.S. anyway) you've probably ingested iodophor.

As Ulick says they are formulated with an acid (won't work when basic), 
and as Pierre (Jelenc?) mentioned recently are complexed to a polyether.  
Most nonionic surfactants are polyethers.  They can be high foaming, low 
foaming, no foaming; all depending on composition.  I've seen iodophor 
complexes on three occassions that were complexed to three different 
surfactants.  My understanding is that iodophors were developed as lower 
irritation iodine sources compared to tincture of iodine.  The surfactant 
helps wet the surface.  

So Ulick, when you say soapy are you referring to foaming, odor, ?.  
If it's just foaming I would call your sources back and ask for a low-foam 
or no-foam iodophor.  I believe in dairy sanitation foaming is considered 
an advantage as you can cover a lot of surface area.  Not every sanitizer 
customer wants a high foaming product, so there must be something 
available in Europe.
- --------------------------------------------

In a related note:
PAUL_TULLY at HP1700.desk.hp.com wrote:
>What is the best way to sanitize your bottle caps? Is it necessary to
>boil them or can you just soak them in a sanitizer solution. 

I use iodophor (1/2 tsp gal dosage).  Drop the caps in a strainer/basket, 
drop this in a bowl of iodophor, soak for 2 min. or so, drain, shake and 
use as needed.  No rinse for me and no problems in 35+ batches.

A data point to consider - St. Patrick's (Austin shop) told me that Celis 
uses the oxygen scavenging caps right out of the bag with no sanitation.  
I wouldn't but the point made to me is that there is nothing for microbes 
to grow on on the caps.  However, since homebrew shop have lots of grain 
dust hanging around, I say cap sanitation is a good precaution.

Someone else asked about bottle sanitation and using the oven.  In case you 
have a dishwasher try this for a few bottles, see how it goes, then try 
more as you dare.  After drinking a beer I rinse three times with water, 
and put in the dishwasher.  So they are cleaned and "sanitized" before 
being put away.  They are stored upside in a case until bottling day.  Put 
them all in the dishwasher with no detergent (should be clean first) and use 
the hot temperature boost if you have it.  I transitioned into this over 
time by doing part of the bottles this way while others got iodophor 
treatment.  Now I never use iodophor on the bottles.  The key step to me is 
making sure they are clean before storing.  Haven't had any head retention 
problems from the defoaming agents in autodish detergents either.

Toasting Malt

I got three replies to my question about the apparently conflicting advice 
in the recent zymurgy.  The summary seems to be - there is a difference 
between "roasting" and "toasting".  Lightly toasted malt does not appear to 
cause flavor problems when used soon after toasting.  However, there does 
appear to be a problem using freshly "roasted" grain.  One person said it 
was terrible, another said it caused harsh flavors in their porter.  So a 
mellowing period is probably a good idea before putting in your beer.  
Thanks to all who replied.

Bruce DeBolt
Lake Jackson, TX

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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 09:44:51 -0400
From: af509 at osfn.rhilinet.gov (Rolland Everitt)
Subject: suggested list etiquette



Today someone sent in a request for responses regarding their
education level.  Having done research of my own, I was sympa-
thetic to his quest, and decided to reply.  As usual, however,
by the time I finished reading the message, the header had 
scrolled off my screen.  Since there was no signature file, I
had to scroll through most of the HBD file again to find this
fellow's e-mail address.

It would be great if those of us who can do so would adopt the
practice of adding their name and e-mail address to the END of
messages, particularly when the message asks for a reply. This
information can be included in an automatic signature file, or
just typed as part of the message body.  IMHO, this would be
a far better use of the signature file than some of the 
irrelevant stuff we see every day (I have been as guilty of
this as anyone).  Just my opinion.

Rolland Everitt
af509 at osfn.rhilinet.gov


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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 95 10:09:57 EDT
From: Pierre Jelenc <pcj1 at columbia.edu>
Subject: Those French beers


<Bob_Brescia.GLAXO at notes.compuserve.com> asks:

>   While I was down in the Carribean, before hurricane season,
>   I tried several French beers.....They were very good and had
>   almost a sweet flavor to them.  Recently I visited a French
>   restaurant in Seattle and sampled another french beer, but
>   cannot remember what any of them were called.
> 
>   I thought the style name began with a "B", but that is just a bad guess
>   at best. I couldn't even come close to remembering the brand name.

"Bieres de Garde", i.e. beers for keeping. Brewed in the spring for 
consumption during the summer when everybody is busy harvesting and it's 
too hot to brew anyway.

Pierre

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1868, 10/27/95