FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Stinkin' fridge (Guy Mason)
  elevated conditioning temperatures (Peter Maxwell)
  stopper in carboy (Rolland Everitt)
  DMS in Lagers / Carbonate Brewing Water (Rob Reed)
  Re: fritz vs. jim redux (Russell Mast)
  Wyeast 1056 below 63F/Pitch Timing/BTUs/Tastelessness (Algis R Korzonas)
  Homebrew Digest #1894 (GriswoldJ)
  Manifolds, Chest Freezers and thermostats (dludwig)
  Extract Barleywines (Elde)
  New England Beer Weekend? (Hettsmac)
  Re: Propane use inside (Bob McCowan)
  Water/Hemacytometers/Sparge Rates (A. J. deLange)
  Re: Stopper Stuck in Carboy (Demetrius J. Karos )
  Slants (Bob McCowan)
  Propane use / inside cooking (Bob Waterfall)
  Russ' survey, Fritz vs. Jim, well water ("Tracy Aquilla")
  Re: Sanitizing kegs (hollen)
  Saliva Bock ("Michael A. Owings")
  Re: Whiney Taste? (Bird)
  Fritz vs jim : round x (Ken Schroeder)
  Full Sail in Berkeley? (Douglas Thomas)
  New Filter ("Manning Martin MP")
  Good Gott Almighty. (Russell Mast)
  Poor carbonation in PET bottles (Rolland Everitt)
  Typo in my post (Kelly Jones    Intel Portland Technology Development)
  Sound's like a bomb! (Neal Christensen)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 29 Nov 95 14:51:01 EST
From: Guy Mason <guy at opus.matrixnet.com>
Subject: Stinkin' fridge


Greetings HBDer's,

First and most important thanks to all the folks who responded to the stinky
fridge post.  The responses ranged from give it away and find a used one
to wash it out the vanilla extract and water.  When I asked the future spousal
unit if the drip pan had been cleaned she responded with "What drip pan?".
The sucker was encrusted with stuffs (sorry to the technical language) and I
think that and drain hole may have been the problem.  So now its off to the
land of lagers.  A summary of ideas follows :

	1. Try something acidic, like vinegar.
	2. Ancient refrigerators used sulphur dioxide or ammonia as refrigerants
	   check for leaks.
	3. Check the drain tube and air it out.
	4. Try using fresh coffee grounds.  They usually work better than
	   baking soda.
	5. Bottle of vanilla extract in a gallon of water, wash and rinse 3 or
	   4 times.
	6. Give it away and get a new used fridge.
	7. Clean the door seal.
	8. put a little ammonia in the fridge for a few days then air it out
	9. The smell is in the insulation, call the manufacturer for advice.
       10. 10-20# of charcoal and some baking soda in the closed fridge for
	   a month or so.

Thanks again.
- --
o   o
 \ /     M A T R I X
  o--o
 / \   O    Guy Mason               voice: 203-944-2020x190
o   \ /     guy at matrixNet.com       fax: 203-944-2022
  O--O--O
    / \     MATRIX, 2 Trap Falls Road, Shelton, CT 06484
   O   O

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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 13:29:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Peter Maxwell <peterm at aoraki.dtc.hp.com>
Subject: elevated conditioning temperatures

I'd be interested to know if anyone has experience with elevated temperatures
after bottling.  What would be the effect of, for example, leaving the bottles
at 80F immediately after bottling, to speed up carbonation?  Sometimes my
ales take up to 3 weeks to properly carbonate at 68F.  Would the elevated
temperatures produce undesired flavors?

	Peter

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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 17:34:58 -0500
From: af509 at osfn.rhilinet.gov (Rolland Everitt)
Subject: stopper in carboy



To the fellow whose gum stopper got sucked in to his carboy, I
would try chilling the carboy thoroughly, then trying to coax
the stopper back into the neck by inverting the carboy and
shaking it.  If this is successful, put the carboy in a warm
place (still inverted) and see if the increasing pressure pops
the stopper out again.

If that fails, just leave it in there and don't worry about it.
If you sterilize it, you should not have a problem.

Rolland Everitt
af509 at osfn.rhilinet.gov

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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 18:04:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Rob Reed <rhreed at icdc.delcoelect.com>
Subject: DMS in Lagers / Carbonate Brewing Water


Russ Brodeur writes:

> One of the appealing characteristics of continental lagers, IMHO, is the
> "corny" or "lagery" flavors.  I believe they are caused by DMS levels 2-3x
> the taste threshold. <snip> 
> Anyhow, I would like to brew lagers with this characteristic lager flavor,
> not just hops & malt.  

I assume you are using a quality European Lager malt, no?  I find that
if you want DMS, Durst Pils is the malt for you.  In my home brewery, I 
typically add some pale ale or high-kilned malt to predominantly Durst
Pils grain bills in order to dilute final DMS levels.  Even with immersion 
chilling and a 90 minute wort boil, I still get huge DMS levels when I 
use Durst Pils malt.  I have found that one or two decoctions reduces 
perceived DMS levels.  

- -----

roberts at Rt66.com (Bird) writes:

> The problem is that I was getting an astringent, bitter character over
> and beyond the normal, desired hop bitterness. I have finally tracked
> it down to the ph of the water. Because I obviously have a lot of CO3,
> the ph is running right at 8.5, way high. 
 <snip>
> So, now that I know to adjust the ph, I'm trying to find a supplier of
> food-grade lactic acid (88% aqueous), with near-zero luck.

Doesn't this require a large amount of acid to reduce your mash and sparge
water pH from 8.5.  I'd be concerned that adding large amounts of any acid
are going to show through in the finished beer.

Have you considered preboiling your water to remove excess carbonates?
If you are unsure about Ca content, I'd add 1.5 tsp. gypsum / 5 gals.
and pre-boil all your brewing water for 20 minutes.  The carbonate and
bicarbonate ions will be precipitated as calcium carbonate (consuming 
some Ca in the process) and you'll be left with brewing water suitable
for pale ales.  I have similarly hard water and use this process
to decarbonate my  pale ale brewing water.  For lagers, I use 
1/4 - 1/2 tsp. calcium chloride / 5 gals. and treat similarly.

BTW, it is not necessary to let your water cool to room temp. to rack off
of chalk precipitate.  It usually takes about 30 mins for all the chalk
to settle out and then you can rack off the top or flow out of your
spigoted boiler.

Cheers,

Rob Reed

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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 17:19:06 -0600
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Re: fritz vs. jim redux


I'll try to be brief.  Brian Dulisse attacks a straw man throughout most of 
his post, not me.  Those words don't fit well in my mouth, get them out.
<ptooi>

I assert there IS a difference between "making beer to make money" and "making 
money to make beer" and that this difference DOES affect the quality of my
life.

I assert that there IS such a thing as "quality" which is independant from 
considerations of "individual taste" difference.

I assert that "personal tastes" in beer, like my tastes in music, romance,
and movies, are neither random, arbitrary, nor morally-neutral.  

If you ignore these three important assertions, I certainly will sound like
the horse's-ass Brian's post makes me out to be.  (In fairness, he and I 
are sorting things out in private e-mail, and he's not a bad guy at all.)  

I think most people, at least functionally, agree with the last two assertions,
even though they rarely spell them out or question them.  I think that 
arguing the validity of these statments is outrageously time-consuming and NOT 
appropriate for the HBD.  Think about them, though.  

I love you all.  Buy my T-shirts.  Drink good beer.  Drink GREAT beer.

 -Russell Mast

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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 95 16:31:19 CST
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: Wyeast 1056 below 63F/Pitch Timing/BTUs/Tastelessness

Delano writes:
>Ferment with WYeast 1056 at 60 F (ambient)
 
and:
Al Korzonas 
>writes that this yeast tends to shut down when cooled below 60 F.  
>This has not been my experience, but I'm measuring the ambient 
>temperature, not the temperature of the fermenting wort.

If you say it's works for you, then it works for you.  I would be
interested in the size and vigor of the starter and when you pitched
it.  If you pitched a very large, very active starter, I can see
where the yeast activity would heat the wort enough to keep it above
63F.  Some brewers have reported their ferments to be 10 degree F 
above the ambient temperature!

In my case, the room was 57F and I only pitched about 500ml of a
starter than was well past the ideal time for pitching.

Which brings me to another point.  Over the past year or so, I've
been pounding my keyboard regarding the ideal time to pitch a
starter.  I had posted in the past that the highest glycogen level
is when the yeast are just beginning to settle.  I was doing some
research on this last night for a little project of mine and found
that the glycogen level begins to drop shortly before sedimentation
(settling) begins.  Therefore, I must correct myself and say that:

   the ideal time to pitch a starter is when the starter
   is still quite active, but just starting to slow down.

***
Mark writes:

>Check the BTU's before you buy. The propane Coleman puts out 8kBtu per
>burner. 16kBut is not enough to get those 8gal enamel on steel pots to a
>rolling boil.

Not in my experience.  I have two 9,000 BTU burners and two 12,000 BTU
burners on my kitchen stove (a little bigger than most).  The 9,000 BTU
burners are indeed not big enough to boil wort in an 8 gallon, enamel-
on-steel kettle, but the 12,000 BTU burners are.  I do have to keep the
cover on partly (maybe 60% closed) to get a rolling boil.

***
Tim writes:
>making a concentrated mild 
>ale and diluting it to 10 gallons in the secondary.  Has anyone tried this 
>already?  I don't forsee many problems from a late addition if I preboil and 
>cool the dilution water beforehand.


Been there, done that, it tasted great.  I also once made 3 gallons of
very good bitter from a gallon of barleywine (had to try the new handpump!).
One point of note is that the higher gravity ferment increases ester
production, but for ales, who's complaining...

***
Harlan writes:
>had my friendly bartender give me a glass each of budweiser,
>miller, and old style. That's right, a blind taste test.

That's easy... budweiser has several times the threshold of acetaldehyde,
miller is the most neutral of the three and old style smells so much of
DMS if I was really blindfolded, I'd say "creamed corn!"

Now, I'm not so sure if I could correctly distinguish between coors,
miller high life, bud ice ("made with corn, cause it's smoother...") and
icehouse (miller, in case you didn't know -- plank road brewery, ha!).

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at pubs.att.com

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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 22:30:21 -0500
From: GriswoldJ at aol.com
Subject: Homebrew Digest #1894

Inn HB#1894
>>From: mmoss at PO-Box.McGill.CA
>>Subject: uncompress (.Z)/converting SS keg to brewpot

A file to decompress these and like files:

ftp://ftp.cica.indiana.edu/pub/pc/win3/util/av.zip


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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 22:17:28 -0500
From: dludwig at ameritel.net
Subject: Manifolds, Chest Freezers and thermostats

>From John Palmer's post regarding mash tun manifold area sizing
>greater than the inflow. Therefore you need to provide as much inflow area
>as practical, and make the valve at the outflow the control for the flow
>rate. To this end, the area arguement certainly helps.

I agree. I probably shouldn't have posted without first reading the article.
Looking forward to getting my hands on it!

>settle toward the bottom providing the filter bed. Greg Noonan has a
>illustration of this in his book, Brewing Lager Beer. If you stir your mash
>during, you will facilitate this alluvial stratification (any soil
>scientists in the house? Dave?). My point is that False Bottom or Manifold,
>the grainbed will be the same. However, you are probably correct that by

No soil scientists here, just a brewhappy Mech Engr. My thought was that the
finer particles, like those that would clog the bed of filter husks, would
work their way through the larger materials (driven by flow) towards the
bottom of the grain bed, compacting the bed and reducing flow. With the
manifold, simple settling is disrupted somewhat around the manifold with the
possible added flow path along the bottom of the tun. 

On another subject. I've been looking at some of these cheap 7 and 10 cubic
ft chest freezers that are around. The 10 cubic ft model cost about $250 and
will hold four 5 gal firestone kegs or a 6.5 gal carboy and two, maybe three
kegs. Any problem installing a thermostat and operating one of these at beer
temps? I know this has been a popular topic in the not too distant past and
I've tried to locate some of those posts in the archives with no luck. Can
someone clue me in on what is the thermostat of choice with special
consideration towards low cost and where do I get one? And if there is a
problem with using a freezer? Private E-mails fine. -Dave in Southern MD


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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 01:08:39 -0500
From: Elde at aol.com
Subject: Extract Barleywines

Looking for recipes / comments / experiences on extract Barleywines.

Derek L.

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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 07:39:28 -0500
From: Hettsmac at aol.com
Subject: New England Beer Weekend?

Folks,

Does anyone out there knows a nice weekend getaway in the New England area?

What I have in mind is a brewpub, which also offers lodging. I know one place
in New Hamshire: The Woodstock Brewing Company in North Woodstock, NH 10
miles south of the old man of the mountain. They even offer a special
"Brewer's Weekend", but I can't make it on their dates.

Please reply directly to hettsmac at aol.com and I will summarize for the
digest.

Robert Hett, Hudson, MA

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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 08:14:02 -0500
From: Bob McCowan <bob.mccowan at cfrp.varian.com>
Subject: Re: Propane use inside

>Subject: Propane use / inside cooking
>
>Denis Barsalo wrote:
>>>        What about those outdoor cookers everybody is using. Can I use one
>>>when it's -10F outside? Can they be modified to be used with natural gas?
>>>(That way I could use it inside)

>Then Bob McCowan wrote:
>>Does converting a cajun cooker to NG really make it safe to use inside?  Is
>>propane always unsafe?  Seems to me that many rural houses cook with propane
>>and the inhabitants are not dying of CO poisoning.
>
>        The problem as I understand it is not a CO issue but more the fact
>that propane is heavier than air. Any slight leak or unburned fuel will
>collect in the basement of your house. Sooner or later, an open flame will
>ingnite it and then *BOOM*!
>
>Denis Barsalo

Propane that I buy has a very obnoxious odor - added so that you can smell
any leaks.  Standard procedure is to use a soap solution around all
connections to detect any slight leaks.  Use in a garage with the door open
somewhat should allow dense gases to get out. Certainly storing propane
cylinders inside is a *really* bad idea.

Are all components of natural gas less dense than air - methane/ethane?  I
has always assumed that NG was a mix of gases.  Is the relative safety of NG
due to the density or to the use of hard plumbing? If this is the case a
flexible hose to a cooker might not be a safe thing.

These are interesting questions as we ponder the safety of our procedures.



Bob McCowan
bob.mccowan at cfrp.varian.com


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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 09:23:56 -0500
From: ajdel at interramp.com (A. J. deLange)
Subject: Water/Hemacytometers/Sparge Rates

Jeffrey Collins wondered why he came up short on wort in #1897:

There are lots of things which can cause this. Any recipe which says to
mash with a particular amount of water, sparge with a particular amount of
water and boil for a particular length of time to get a specified amount of
wort at a specified gravity is only going to give those results if the
equipment and procedures are exactly those of the person who formulated the
recipe . Factors such as the nature of the grind and the conversion and
lautering efficiencies will effect the amount of sugar collected with a
given amount of sparge water and the amount of sparge water retained by the
grain at the point at which collection is terminated. The boil nominally
causes a loss of 10%/hr but the actual loss obviously depends on the vigor
of the boil and the shape of the kettle. Finally some wort is retained by
the hops.

The advice here is not to worry too much about hitting the recipe's
numbers. Dough in with enough water to give mash of the proper stiffness.
Sparge until runoff pH reaches 6 or runoff gravity about 2 P whichever
comes first. Check the gravity in the kettle before and towards the end of
the boil and add as much water as is neceseeary or lengthen the boil as
necessary to hit the target volume and gravity at the end of the boil. In
doing this make allowance for any water you will use to sparge the hops.
With some experience you will develop numbers for your setup and procedures
which will help you to predict final brew length more accurately.

In the same number Rich Gibson asked about estimating yeast cell counts to
determine when to bottle:
The fancy slide is called a "hemacytometer" because of its traditional use
in counting blood cells. They are still made a (must be for the 3rd world
or for training techs since blood counts are now done in high $ automated
machines) and sell for a little over $100 if memory serves me. Their big
value is in being able to determine whether a wort has been pitched with
enough yeast (1 million cells per millilitre per degree Plato is the rule
of thumb). For purposes of determining when to bottle I would think that
perceived clarity of a test jar full of the beer would be sufficient.
Conversely one ought to be able to eventually come up with a subjective
impression of cell density by placing a drop of beer on a slide and
floating a cover slip on it. The hemacytometer has supports which hold the
cover slip at a fixed height (0.1mm) above the slide so that a given area
encloses a given volume of beer hence the cell/ml can be determined. In an
ordinary slide the heigt would be a function of the cover slip weight, the
surface tension and density of the beer i.e. quite variable. Nonetheless
the subjective impression of "lots of cells and protein globules" or "few
cells and protein globules" should be accurate enough for this purpose.

Most of the bugs which plague us are plainly visible under 400X
magnification if the lighting is right and that is probably where you will
have trouble with the garage sale microscope. It is undoubtedly a bright
field model in which case a good substage condeser which can be stopped way
down is desireable. Make a little low gravity wort and leave it uncovered
in the kitchen for a couple of days. Then examine it under your microscope.
You should be able to see all kinds of yeast, rods and possibly cocci. Bear
in mind that experience helps a lot. At first, in the words of Hercule
Poirot, you will "see but not observe".

Steve Comella asked about his Tucson water and red winter wheat:
This water has got lots of permanent hardness and lots of temporary
hardness as well. It is suitable for brewing Burton style ales and not much
else. You can get rid of the temporary hardness quite easily but will be
left with lots of sodium, a tremendous sulfate load and a fair amount of
carbonate alkalinity which will have a major effect on your hops
bitterness. Traditional water softeners won't touch the anions so they
won't be of much help. Bottled water or an RO unit will be required if you
want to do anything which requires soft water (wheat beers, Pilsners,
Helles).

The red winter wheat is fine for wit beers but is troublesome to mill. Set
the mill rollers closer together and prepare for a good workout. Don't try
to grind this stuff in a Glatt. The gears will strip.

Bruce Taber asks about sparge rates:
The slower you go the more efficient the extraction provided that grain bed
temperature can be maintained. Tannin extraction is an issue if the sparge
pH is allowed to rise above 6. Darryl Richman in "Bock" reports that
standard practice is to start at a flow rate of 0.18 gallons/min/square
foot and increase it to 0.33 g/m/ft2 over the course of a 3 hour
lauter/sparge. He gives numbers for a 16" diameter lauter tun: 0.25 g/m
increasing to 0.46 g/m.

A.J. deLange   Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore!
ajdel at interramp.com



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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 06:15:52 -0800
From: dkaros at ix.netcom.com (Demetrius J. Karos )
Subject: Re: Stopper Stuck in Carboy

I purchased a Cork Retriever from Presque Isle Wine Cellars for a 
similar problem.  Their number is 800-488-7492.  The Cork Retriever is 
$5.95 each. 

I haven't tried it on Carboys but the concept is the same.  The cork 
retriever has 3 long metal rods connected to a handle.  At the end of 
the rods is a metal ring that when pushed down will tighted the rods.  
This allows the user to pull the cork through the openning.  

Good Luck. 

Demetrius

Long live the Innerstave and the Crusher/Destemmer.

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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 09:22:55 -0500
From: Bob McCowan <bob.mccowan at cfrp.varian.com>
Subject: Slants

I decided that it would be fun to try some yeast slants, and got some vials
and parafilm.  I though I'd try gelatin, since it's easily found and
inexpensive.

I mixed up one packet of Knox gelatin in one cup of boiled wort, filled a
bunch of vials, capped them loosely and pressure-cooked at 15 PSI for 20
Min.  I slanted them and let them cool and they looked OK.

I noticed a bunch of solids that precipitated during the cooling.  Is this
some protein?

Also, when I had some yeast growing, when I loosened the caps the pressure
release caused the gelatin to nearly explode and make a mess inside the vial.
Being more careful in releasing the pressure slowly helped but did not
completely eliminate the problem.

Would more gelatin help, or should I go find some agar?  Winter temp in the
house is around 65F.  The cellar is cooler ~55F.
Bob McCowan
bob.mccowan at cfrp.varian.com


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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 09:55:20 -0500 (EST)
From: waterr at rpi.edu (Bob Waterfall)
Subject: Propane use / inside cooking

Denis Barsalo said:
>The problem as I understand it is not a CO issue but more the fact
>that propane is heavier than air. Any slight leak or unburned fuel will
>collect in the basement of your house. Sooner or later, an open flame will
>ingnite it and then *BOOM*!
- ------------------
As an air pollution engineer, I think I can speak with some confidence on
this.  I certainly agree that indoor use of propane can be dangerous due to
the "heavier than air" problem (Natural gas is lighter than air but can
collect near the ceiling).   However, I wouldn't minimize the hazards of CO
buildups from using high BTU cookers with EITHER propane or natural gas.
The issue here is poor combustion.  If you have a sooty, yellow flame then
you are certainly producing a lot of CO.

There are a few reasons why these fuels can be used safely for cooking, home
heating, dryers, etc.  First, the gas piping has (normally) been checked by
a gas-fitter to ensure that it is leak-free.  Second, stoves are much lower
BTU than outdoor cookers.  Third, stoves, boilers, water heaters, dryers,
etc. are being used within the range of design heat output. No yellow
flames, less CO.  Fourth, boilers, water heaters, dryers, etc. are vented
directly to the outside via chimneys or ducts.  A little breeze flowing
across the top of a chimney creates suction to pull fresh air into/through
the appliance and out the stack.

Personally, I have a Cajun cooker that produces a sooty yellow flame when
it's turned down for maintaining a boil.  I use it either outdoors or in the
garage with doors open at both ends.  I always check my connections with
soap solution as soon as I hook up the tank.  I will be getting a CO monitor
for the house that I can move to the garage for brew sessions.  Call me
overly cautious, but excellent beer is not worth dying for.

Bob Waterfall <waterr at rpi.edu>,
Troy, NY, USA


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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 95 09:59:15 CST
From: "Tracy Aquilla" <aquilla at salus.med.uvm.edu>
Subject: Russ' survey, Fritz vs. Jim, well water

In Digest #1890:
Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com> sez:
>Degrees don't make you smart

I'll drink to that. They'll give a degree to just about any fool who wants one!
I thought the survey was fairly interesting. The results were about what I
would have predicted. I agree, the survey was probably biased towards those
with more education, possibly because it was an on-line survey. I also
believe that those with more education would be more likely to respond
(boasting, you know).
Degrees don't make you smart, but beer does (well, at least it made BUD wiser).
Sorry for the silly pun, I couldn't resist.


In Digest #1892:
kens at lan.nsc.com (Ken Schroeder) sez:
>Here is the part that gets me, he does it HONESTLY, and many times without
>financial gain (or law suites) (try both of those koch).

I believe Fritz Maytag claims the trademark "steam" and enforces it. If
anyone tried selling "steam" beer they'd be sued by Maytag just as anyone
selling Sam Houston or Ben Franklin beer would be sued by Jim Koch. I don't
see how this is any different from Koch claiming his trademarks. Well OK,
maybe Koch goes further in claiming a LOT more names. Either way, they're
both trying to make a profit and protect their interests. It's all legal, BTW. 


and HYMT59A at prodigy.com (MR SCOTT H MOBERG) sez:
In response to HBD #1886, where JAWeld at aol.com says:
>>In the HBD from 11/14/95, Phil.finkle ask if it is necessary to boil 
>>well water.  I would have to say yes, it is necessary.  For the same 
>>reason you boil water before feeding to newborn infants.  You should boil all 
>>water to remove the chance of bacterial infection.  And after all, isn't a 
>>batch of brew as helpless as a baby??  I would be especially careful of well 
>>water, which may or may not be chlorinated.

I think these are good points, but Scott doesn't. 

>I have to disagree with two points. I have made both extract and all 
>grain using unboiled well water, and all four of my kids from infants 
>on up have drank unboiled well water. In fact, newborns have great 
>immune systems, especially if breast fed, and well water, once 
>checked for E. Coliform, is very safe and relatively bacteria free. 
>(of course any water may have other contaminants such as fertilizer 
>byproducts, metals, etc.) There are also different types of wells. I 
>would normally prefer a drilled well (75 - 200 Ft deep) that taps an 
>aquifier  as opposed to a "point", that may only be 10 ft deep and 
>utilizes surface water runoff.  I have never had a problem with 
>bacteria infections in any of my batches, and have never worried 
>about tap water contributing to contamination. I also prefer the 
>taste of my well water to most municipal water systems because I 
>don't like chlorine flavored water. Anybody ever experience bacterial 
>problems directly attributable to use of well water?

I included the full text above because I think there are several critical
issues here. First, infants do not "have great immune systems", whether
they're breast fed or not. In fact, one reason breast feeding is good is
that the mother's milk provides antibodies which the baby doesn't have the
ability to produce. Infants are highly susceptible to infection, and can
essentially be considered to be immunologically compromised. This is why
there are very strict standards for the microbiological quality of baby
formulas and foods. Secondly, testing a well once doesn't mean it won't be
contaminated in the future. It's best to test at least once annually. While
deep wells tend to be "cleaner", this is not always the case. My water comes
from a spring, which is generally considered to be the best you can get
because the source is very deep down below the aquifer. This fall,
torrential rains caused some surface disturbances and surface water began
mixing with our spring water. Suddenly one day my water was brown. Since my
neighbors have cows, horses, etc., I was concerned about this. You wouldn't
believe the stinky critters I've cultured from this water. The point is, the
quality of well water can change dramatically within a very short time. If
you don't do full volume wort boils and instead top off with cold water
after boiling the wort, it's best to top of with pre-boiled water,
particularly if it hasn't been treated (i.e. at the municipal plant). Well
water can be great, but since nobody else is monitoring it's quality, you
need to do this yourself and should be aware that its quality can change
literally overnight.
    Tracy in Vermont
    aquilla at salus.med.uvm.edu

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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 95 07:16:16 PST
From: hollen at vigra.com
Subject: Re: Sanitizing kegs

>>>>> "Scott" == Scott Kaczorowski <kacz at aisf.com> writes:

Scott> Dion says in HBD #1896:

Dion> Mike> Is boiling water a viable means of sanitizing cornelius kegs?
Dion> 
Dion> I truly don't believe this is adequate.  Do you force water out of all
Dion> the QD fittings?  Even if you do, boiling water is not sufficient.
Dion> Boiling *in* water for a prolonged period of time is, but just adding
Dion> boiling water is not.

Dion> Mike> Hey, it sure is cheaper than Idophor....
Dion> 
Dion> I don't know why people get the idea that Iodophor is expensive.
Dion> ... It costs me $22 per gallon, ...

Scott> A while ago, Dion was asking about test strips to try to gauge
Scott> the effectiveness of old iodophor solution.  That is, he didn't
Scott> believe that the mere presence of color meant the solution was
Scott> still viable.  Dion, did you convince yourself that if it still
Scott> has color it still has value?  If so, what convinced you?  The
Scott> kegs-in-series trick sounds like a good one, but long-term
Scott> viability concerns me.

Since people may have missed my report, I will re-iterate.  I found
test strips, filled a keg with 25ppm iodophor and let it sit for 6
weeks, testing every few days.  Within the ability of the test papers,
there was no measurable change in concentration.  I have now been
using the same iodophor for over 6 months and all I have to do is to
add a little extra and some water to top up the volume due to losses
when transferring.

With what I have seen so far and the private Email I have gotten from
another reader, iodophor will be effective indefinitely when used in
this manner and kept closed up in a keg.

dion

- -- 
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x119       Email: hollen at vigra.com
Senior Software Engineer     Vigra, Inc.  San Diego, California

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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 08:35:48 -0600 (CST)
From: "Michael A. Owings" <mikey at waste.com>
Subject: Saliva Bock


> Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 19:41:26 +0100 (MET)
> From: Carl Etnier <Carl.Etnier at abc.se>
> Subject: ultracontaminated beer/homebrewers in Oslo?

[Stuff about experimental contamination deleted]

> opened two of them now, one a pale ale and the other a dark bock.  I
> can discern almost no difference between these "infected" bottles and
> the
> other bottles from the same batch. (No smart remarks now about how my
> beer in general must taste, please.) The saliva bock does have less
                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^
> carbonation than the normal bock and is a little sweeter.

Is this an AHA-approved style?  If not,  shouldn't it be?

=============================================================================
Michael Owings                                            Chief of Operations
Uncle Leroi's Hazardous Materials Storage and FemtoBrewery    New Orleans, LA
=============================================================================



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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 95 08:48:04 MST
From: roberts at Rt66.com (Bird)
Subject: Re: Whiney Taste?

>>>>> "Russell" == Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com> writes:

    >> From: Mark Redman <redman at vivid.net>

    >> I have been an all-grain brewer for a couple of years, and
    >> still bottle with a corn sugar prime. I recently entered a
    >> brewing contest, and although I won a couple of third place
    >> awards, I was counted off for a "whiney" taste attributed to
    >> corn sugar.

    Russell> The judges were simply misattributing the off-flavor.
    Russell> There may well be a winey taste to your beers, but the
    Russell> amount of corn sugar used in priming is pretty miniscule,
    Russell> and not enough to cause this flavor.

I have to disagree with this. I can _always_ tell by taste when a 
batch was primed with corn sugar. Even 1/2 cup to prime a 5 gallon 
batch leaves a winey taste signature that detracts from the beer's
quality. It was for this reason that I used DME to prime (back in the
olden days when I still carbonated that way...).

- --Doug

- -- 
You know how dumb the average American is?
Just remember that 50% is (or are) even dumber than that.

Doug Roberts
roberts at rt66.com

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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 95 07:56:50 PST
From: kens at lan.nsc.com (Ken Schroeder)
Subject: Fritz vs jim : round x

Brian Dulisse continues the thread which may be going on to long. Brian
states that Jim and Fritz are much alike. Maybe. I think what Brian missed
is that Fritz claims the name Steam. He resurrected this previously
little known style when he turned Anchor into a profit maker. koch,
on the other hand, has put a claim in for almost every founder of this
country. This list is extensive, but just a few names will help out:
Thomas Jefferson, Sam Houston, Ben Franklin and on and on. I don't think
koch is responsible for preventing saving these names from being forgotten.
Let us not talk about the word Boston...apparently koch feels he owns the 
name. I always though Boston was a city, not a kingdom. There in
is the difference, Fritz lays claim to a product he made profitable to
sell. koch lays claim to our forefathers names, and at least one city 
by my count. koch appears to want to litigate competition out of business.
Fritz helps build competition (Sierra Nevada, Mendicino, Mad River, Albion, 
ect). Fritz seems to have the idea that competition is good, koch thinks
comnpetition of any kind must be squashed. Can anybody cite the last 
litigation for the Steam name brought on by Fritz? I can't. The brewing 
business, at least at the smaller levels, is more a brotherhood. Brewers help 
brewers, drink each other's beer, seek advice and judgment on beer and 
business matters. Fritz plays the game in this mamnner. koch, simply put, 
violates this brotherhood. This is why he is such an easy target for the rath 
of most brewers I talk with. We (the HBD community) seem to cheerish "the 
brotherhood" and are insensed when someone obviously does not want to play 
this way. Then the guy tries to buy us off with gimmicks like his contest and 
his stale hops sale. koch is sort of like that in law that doen't fit in the 
family, and always does something against the family code of ethics, yet 
claims to be the leader of the family. Does that make this whole thread a 
family discussion on family issues? Hmmm.......

Ken Schroeder
Sequoia Brewing (may be my last post on this tired thread...don't count on it)

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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 08:04:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Douglas Thomas <thomasd at uchastings.edu>
Subject: Full Sail in Berkeley?

Just recently, Hart Brewing co applied for permits to build a 30,000 sq 
ft brewery in Berkeley CA.  There were some problems, but now that is all 
cleared up.  I just wanted to know if anyone had heard of when the new 
brewery was supposed to be coming in and if they will be brewing Full 
Sail or doing a new set of brews.  
If anyone has heard about this, please let me know.  I am also looking 
for any wine groups that may be out there in cyberspace.
Doug Thomas
thomasd at uchastings.edu

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Date: 30 Nov 1995 11:16:54 U
From: "Manning Martin MP" <manning_martin_mp at mcst.ae.ge.com>
Subject: New Filter

Jim Busch writes:

>I know a good bit about the
>cartridge type filters sold for brewing but are there others that folks
>are using?  Does anyone know of a plate style filter sold for home >brewers?

Listermann Mfg. is importing a Canadian-made pad-type filter which was
originally developed for wine making.  Known as the "Hexter" (because of its
hexagonal shape), it uses two ~8" diameter pads (micron rating unknown, but
more than one pore size is reportedly available) in a single-pass
arrangement.  The beer enters between the two pads and flows outward on each
side. Hookups are molded-in hose barbs, and CO2 pressure is used to push from
one soda keg to another via the filter.  It has not been released to retail
stores yet, but samples have been evaluated, and good performance reported. 
Retail price is expected to be ~$36.  Listermann doesn't sell direct, so ask
your local retailer.

MPM


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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 10:50:56 -0600
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Good Gott Almighty.


> From: winters at ICD.Teradyne.COM (Ed Winters )
> Subject: Mash tun/Specialty Grains?/Propane
> 
> Mash Tun
> I bought a round Gott cooler for my mashing when I began all-grain several
> years ago.  It was a disaster!  I believed I could just simply add boiling
> water to increase the temp....  How do you
> "cooler" users add heat to the mash?

Sorry if this isn't very helpful, but I "just simply add boiling water to 
increase the temp".  I rarely, if ever, have any problems with it.  

I use a 5 gallon Gott to brew ~5 gallon batches.  (I sometimes do have the 
problem with only 4 gallons left, as someone else posted.  Usually, I just
try to collect a lot more spargate than I think I need and end up with just 
enough.)  When I brew heavy beers, like 12.5 lbs of grain, it gets pretty 
crowded in there.  But, usually, I do just fine.  According to the books I 
have, protein rests should be done with a thick mash anyway, so I try to add
as little water as possible to raise the temp.  I usually strike with ~190, 
figuring it cools off quickly enough.  

To figure out how much water to add later, I do rough averaging.  If I have 
what looks like 2 gallons of 'mash' at 130, and I want something at 150, I 
can add two gallons of water at 170, or 1 gallon at 190.  
(190 + 2*130) / 3 = 150.
It's not perfect, but it gives a ballpark estimate.  Too cool it, unless 
I seriously overshoot, I just stir vigorously and let steam escape.

And I always keep it covered when I'm not stirring, or checking temp, or 
otherwise poking around with it.  

I would have sent this via private e-mail, but then I read poor Ed's obit.
Poor fellow apparently keeled over from carbon monoxide poisoning.  Pity.
Well, maybe someone can gain from this.

 -R

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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 12:44:50 -0500
From: af509 at osfn.rhilinet.gov (Rolland Everitt)
Subject: Poor carbonation in PET bottles



As a user of PET bottles (I brew small batches which don't last
long), I have been interested in the several posts regarding O2
permeation.  I like PET bottles for several reasons, and intend
to continue using them within their limitations.  I have noticed,
however, that my beers are often not very carbonated.  Since I
make mostly English style ales, this isn't a problem, but I 
would like to try other styles.  My question is this - could
O2 seeping into the bottles be sufficient to promote aerobic
fermentation during bottle conditioning?  As I understand it,
in aerobic mode, yeast metabolizes sugar, but does not produce
CO2.  If the bottle fermentation is partially aerobic, then
it seems likely that carbonation would be reduced.

Am I way off base?  I believe that I have eliminated yeast type,
temperature, priming method, and duration of bottle conditioning
as causes of the poor-to-moderate carbonation levels I see.

Rolland Everitt
af509 at osfn.rhilinet.gov

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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 95 08:00:19 -0800
From: Kelly Jones Intel Portland Technology Development <kejones at ptdcs2.intel.com>
Subject: Typo in my post

In a post in HBD 1891, I wrote:

>Flow rate equals pressure drop times resistance, and increasing 
length or decreasing ID increases resistance.

What I meant to say was "Flow rate equals pressure drop _divided
by_ resistance...".   

Sorry.

Kelly
Portland, OR

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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 11:49:16 -0700
From: nealc at selway.umt.edu (Neal Christensen)
Subject: Sound's like a bomb!

Alex provided a summary of responses re: his gushing bottle of beer.  One of
the responses caused me alarm.  The suggestion that the bottles be
pasteurized in BOILING (sorry) water does not sound like a safe practice.
First, CO2 will come out of solution as the bottles are warmed - thereby
increasing the pressure in bottles that are probably already
over-pressurized.  Second, I don't think boiling is necessary for
pasteurization.  I don't know the appropriate time and temperature - but the
temp. is less than boiling.  Third, when you sterilize using the boiling
water bath method in home canning, the lids are not sealed - so they can
release any pressure building up from the boiling contents.  I'm assuming
the suggestion was to be applied to sealed bottles - not opened bottles.
Hope I didn't misunderstand and blow (no pun) this out of proportion.

Dion - I like the tip you mentioned about storing iodophor in cornys and
sanitizing them in-line.  I'll try that one!  Another use for extra cornys
that I am trying out is to use them as the pre-chiller on my immersion
chiller.  I can store one for brewing day in my beer fridge full of water.
When I get ready to chill, I can further cool the water in the corny by
adding ice cubes (or snow soon).  I figure if I hook the contents of this
chilled corny in-line with my cooler, I'll get faster initial cooling.  My
only concern is the possibility of frozen or ice-clogged lines, but no
problems so far.  

Does anyone know the spec.s for German Aiyanger (sp?) pils malt?

Neal Christensen
Montana: "No stop signs; speed limits; nobody's gonna slow me down!" (AC/DC)


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1898, 12/01/95