FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Underestimating water (Jeffrey M. Collins)
  Please take me off mail list. (Woodog8)
  Yeasty thoughts and relative brewery sizes (Rich Gibson)
  Carbonation Problems (Raymond Louvier )
  Re: Your Beer's gushing (Alejandro Midence)
  RE: Electric vs Gas vs Propane (Brad Roach)
  water and wheat (Steve Comella)
  Re: Laaglager DME ("Philip Gravel")
  2 bbl brewery (Nir Navot)
  JS Malt Mill v. Brewers Resource Malt Mill ("James Hojel")
  sparging rates ("Taber, Bruce")
  Propane use / inside cooking (Denis Barsalo)
  Stopper stuck in carboy ("Jim Webb")
  Re: Boiled kegs (Bob McCowan)
  Mash tun/Specialty Grains?/Propane (Ed Winters )
  extract storage (Adam Rich)
  another caramel ? (Larry N. Lowe)
  Re: Bread yeast and beer (Jeff Renner)
  fritz vs. jim redux ("Dulisse, Brian")
  Compressed air (Pierre Jelenc)
  Re: Wort to Prime (Gary McCarthy)
  Filters/Koch/Dilution (Jim Busch)
  Belgium Select (Thomas Williams)
  Gas Burners (Ronald J. La Borde)
  Sanitizing kegs (Scott Kaczorowski)
  Stoppers inside carboys (Brad Brim)
  Whiney Taste? (Russell Mast)
  ultracontaminated beer/homebrewers in Oslo? (Carl Etnier)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 17:02:40 -0600
From: jcollin2 at students.wisc.edu (Jeffrey M. Collins)
Subject: Underestimating water

I've recently switched to all-grain brewing, and I find that I'm not getting 
a full five gallons when I follow the charts.  Most recent batch (now in the 
fermenter):

8 lbs. english 2-row
4 oz. German 2-row (gettin' rid of leftovers)
1 lb. 60L crystal
3 oz. Chocolate

I mashed in with 2.375 gallons 170 degree F water, stabilized at 151 degrees F,
1 hour 30 minutes.
Sparged with 4 1/2 gallons 170 degree F water, 55 minutes.
Added a quart to the boil.
Boiled for just over an hour.

Yield to primary was just over 4 gallons, S.G. 1.061. I added 10 cups water 
to bring it up to the 5 gallon mark, S.G. 1.053.

Ideally, shouldn't I be getting 5.5 gallons in the primary? I can see where 
I was a quart short on my sparge water, but I ended up a gallon short 
overall. I know the water evaporated in the boil is variable depending on 
time, but I only boiled an hour, on an electric stove. Additionally, 1.06 
seems like a reasonable S.G. for 9 1/2 lbs. of grain, perhaps a bit low with 
the addition of a pound of honey to the boil. Granted, my technique probably 
needs refining.

I think I'm missing something... any help is appreciated.

To end on a happy note: Ale is now fermenting nicely in my 62 degree F basement.
It'll just be a bit lighter than I planned.
- --------------
Jeffrey M. Collins		Tri rudai faoin ol: e ol,
University of Wisconsin		e iompair, agus e ioc.
    Medical School
				Three things about the drink:
jcollin2 at students.wisc.edu	to drink it, to hold it, and
				to pay for it.
Mail to Jolene Seymour Collins		--Seanfhochail
can also be sent here.


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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 18:44:11 -0500
From: Woodog8 at aol.com
Subject: Please take me off mail list.

please take me off the mail list.

                     thank you....

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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 16:16:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Rich Gibson <drahcirr at netcom.com>
Subject: Yeasty thoughts and relative brewery sizes


I toured the Golden City Brewery  on their second anniversary.  They lager 
their ales for several days to clarify them.  They know when it is time to 
bottle because they use a microscope and a special calibrated slide (this 
slide had a big long name, which I can't remember) to count yeasties. 
When the population is the right number (which, of course, I can't remember) 
they bottle.

This ensures that they get enough yeast to bottle condition, while 
minimizing the amount of sediment.

I liked this approach, so I pulled out a garage sale microscope that I 
had and spent an evening looking at beer.  

Does any one have any thoughts on approximating a yeast count without a 
special slide?  (or perhaps, making a special calibration slide somehow?).

How big are the various nasties that infect beer?  Would they be visible 
under a cheapie microscope?

On the issue of breweries in Golden Colorado... There are three 
commercial breweries (that I know of) in Golden.  One, the world's 
largest brewery, supposedly decided that they didn't want to pay city 
taxes, and so deannexed themselves from Golden in the 50's.

Another brews Sake, and is not within the city limits.

The third one, the Golden City Brewery is right off of downtown, and 
advertises itself as the 'Second Largest Brewery in Golden.'

By my count, they are really either the largest brewery _in_ Golden, or 
the third largest (as the Sake brewery produces more sake then they 
produce beer).


Rich Gibson drahcirr at netcom.com   
Vieviendo en mi una pedazo de tierra, cerca de Golden Colorado   
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you can't trust me with a choice, how can you trust me with an Hawaiian 
pizza?


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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 17:12:22 -0800
From: rlouvier at ix.netcom.com (Raymond Louvier )
Subject: Carbonation Problems

Hi fellow brewers, I have a question concerning the carbonation of a 
Abbey Ale I just brewed 4 weeks ago. I have had it in the bottle for 2 
weeks now and just opened a couple of bottles to sample. When I first 
open the beer seems carbonated well enough, but after a few minutes it 
just goes flat. It was a five gallon batch OG was 1.047 and FG 1.010. I 
primed with 1 cup of corn sugar. This is the first time I have ever had 
a problem with carbonation. Any suggestions? Also I used the Wyeast 
Belgian Abbey Ale yeast and boy what a strong Clove smell and banana 
taste. Is this common with this strain. I will admit my fermentation 
temperatures are around 78 degrees. Is this contributing to the strong 
aroma and taste. Private E-Mail or Post is fine.  

TIA,
Ray Louvier
Houston,Texas
Brewing for one year now and never going back.

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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 19:21:57 -0600
From: Alejandro Midence <alex at conline.com>
Subject: Re: Your Beer's gushing





Warning: This is quite long.  

On Tue, 28 Nov 1995, Steven W. Schultz wrote:
(snip)
> This *one* beer bottle didn't get shaken or
> dropped, did it?
Actually, no.  I handle my bottles very carefully when ever I transport 
them anywhere.  It's never been shaken or droppped.  I *did* move the 
bottles from my garage to the kitchen because of the weather.  It hit 
forty in there a coupla days and doubtless threw the yeast into 
hibernation so, I moved it to the kitchen which was at about sixty 
degrees f (19 c). 

> 	2.  Did you bulk prime or add a measured amount of sugar to each
> bottle?  

I used 3/4 c of dextros boiled in about  one pt of water.  Nothing outa 
the ordinary.  Cooled priming solution to about sixtyish and poured it 
right in, stirring with a sanitized plastic spoon thereafter to mix 
well.  Then, I let it sit for about an hour before I started bottling.  
(allusions to possible contamination via adding sugar individualy to each 
botle deleted)
 > 	3.   How did the beer taste?  All of my contaminated beers 
have
> had just a slight off-smell and off-taste.  You QUICKLY learn to recognize
> the smell and taste.  As time goes by, the smell and taste - especially
> the taste - will get worse.  The only thing you can do about it is keep
> the beer as cold as possible, and drink the whole batch up immediately. 
> Time is the enemy.  
The beer tasted fine.  I've made this stuff before and tasted just the 
same.  Bittersweet, roasted barley flavor complemented by caramel 
sweetness derived from crystal.  Subtle hop flavor and very slight hop 
aroma due to 1/2 oz of fuggles added five mins before end of boil.  
Slight burned flavor from black pattent in background. All of this 
complimented by a yeasty flavor from the Irish Ale yeast I used. I'll 
take your advice of drinking it up after chilling all bottles. You sem to 
agree with most of the others who have be so good as  to respond.


> 	4.   It's too early to panic, that's for sure.  Another
> explanation is that one or more of your bottles were not adequately
> sanitized.  This could mean that this *one* gusher, and perhaps a few
> others, are contaminated.  That's not the end of the world-- at least you
> have some good beers to show for your troubles.
(Speculations as to whether I added 3/4 lb or one lb instead of the 
proper 3/4 to 1 c of dextros deleted.  I dare say I'd have had more than 
gushers to show for *those* troubles.  Following is some more advice that 
was given me  which corolated with that of other gracious responders.)

> TODAY,
> chill the bottles to near-freezing, then open them to release some
> carbonation, then immediately re-cap.  There are probably other, better,
> suggestions. 
Another suggestion I was given was to put the bottles in boiling water to 
pasturize and kill yeast+contaminating bacteria thereby eliminating the 
worry of further, more volatile carbonation.  

I chose to copy this particular message since this one seemed to be the 
most complete set of suggestions common to all the kind folks who 
responded.  To all of you, I am indebted.  As you can all see, I made 
some references to the other responses I got where they added some 
suggestions which Steve had not made.  Hope this has been to benefit to 
others in my predicament.  I apologize if this posting was rather long.

Alex


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
If I were to tell you that everything I say is a lie, and then if I were 
to turn around and say that what I just told you is the truth, would you 
believe me?
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 95 17:42:42 PST
From: b_roach at emulex.com (Brad Roach)
Subject: RE: Electric vs Gas vs Propane



>        What about those outdoor cookers everybody is using. Can I use one
>when it's -10F outside? Can they be modified to be used with natural gas?
>(That way I could use it inside)


I just bought a natural gas/propane burner that can be
converted between the two gases by adjusting the gas
flow. I have not tried it yet but it looks great and it
was cheap! $40 U.S. The only problem was that I bought
it Kona, Hawaii. For some reason, there is a big market
in Hawaii for this type of burners because the price 
was less than half the best price that I found in the 
mainland.


<disclaimer> I have no affiliation with this business.

The store name is: GasPro in Kona, Hawaii and they will ship.

If you want more details, let me know via private Email and
I will pass along the results and the phone #.

Brad Roach
Newport Beach, Calif.

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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 21:58:23 -0700
From: brew2u at azstarnet.com (Steve Comella)
Subject: water and wheat

A couple of questions for the collective knowledge base:

I recently received an analysis of my water and am somewhat baffled. 
I've read the previous threads on this subject, and just finished reading
the section on water in G. Noonan's "Brewing Lager Beer".  It appears that
I need to add lactic acid (ordered today) to my mashing regime instead of
gypsum, but after reading the various articles, perhaps I need to just
buy bottled water.  My water supply here in Tucson goes like this:

PH-7.48
Total dissolved solids-595
Hardness calc.-295
Bicarbonate alkalinity-219
Chloride-37.5
Sulfate-192
Sodium-74
Calcium-90
Magnesium-17

Based on this info, I *think* it is a permanent hardness, which is not
very conducive to brewing light beers (based upon my reading).
Question: Is there anything that can be done here, including diluting
my tap water with distilled water?  I must  admit that my introduction
to chemistry ~20 years ago was a quickly forgotten one.

My second question:

Having just ordered a JS Maltmill (non-adjustable) today, I decided
to stock up on some grains.  Since I love Belgian White beer, I found
and bought a 50 pound sack of domestic hard red unmalted winter wheat.  
However, when I opened the sack, I saw that this type of wheat is much
smaller in size than the wheat that I had previously used.  In fact, it
looks like it would just fall through the opening in the mill.  Is this type
of grain more suited for a Corona-type mill, or will I just be making bread
for the next three years?  I guess I got so excited after successfully
brewing my first all-grain batch, I may have jumped the gun on this one.
Maybe I could use it at weddings instead of rice...........

TIA for any help here.  
The past information passed on within this group has reduced my all-grain
hebejebe's to mere occasional shivers. Thank you.
Steve Comella
brew2u at azstarnet.com


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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 00:10:41 -0600 (CST)
From: "Philip Gravel" <pgravel at mcs.com>
Subject: Re: Laaglager DME

===> Michael R. Swan asks about Laaglander dried malt extract:

> 	I had read on the HBD that Laaglander dry malt extract was useful if 
> you were trying to brew a beer with a high final gravity because it contains 
> a lot of unfermentables.  However, after buying some (but before using it), I
> came across a posting on rec.crafts brewing that said that Laaglander should 
> *not* be used because it turns out beer with a "sour off-flavor".  The post 
> also mentioned that this extract has a small percentage of corn sugar in it.
> 
> 	Does anyone know if this is true? 

I personally have not heard of this problem except for the recent
posting to r.c.b that you note.  I have read many statements about
the amount of non-fermentables Laaglander DME has and the fact that
it tends to produce beers with higher final gravities.  I have only
seen the one isolated claim a sour, off-flavor with this malt extract.
Without supporting evidence, I have to wonder whether sanitation
problems led to an infection that caused the sourness and off flavors.

- -- 
Phil
_____________________________________________________________
Philip Gravel   Lisle, Illinois               pgravel at mcs.net

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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 14:26:02 +0200
From: diagen at netvision.net.il (Nir Navot)
Subject: 2 bbl brewery

I am looking for plans, technical drawings, suggestions and tips for the
construction of a 1-2 BBL pilot plant / brewery.
Got any to share with me?
TIA. Nir.



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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 95 00:04:55 UT
From: "James Hojel" <JTroy at msn.com>
Subject: JS Malt Mill v. Brewers Resource Malt Mill

Does anyone know if the JS Malt Mill that has been talked about so much is 
the same one as the Malt Mill in the Brewers Resource catalog? 

If not, does anyone have any input on the BR mill v. JS mill?

Thanks,
JTH

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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 95 08:53:00 EST
From: "Taber, Bruce" <BRUCE.TABER at NRC.CA>
Subject: sparging rates


Here's a simple little question.
As I understand it, if I sparge too fast I will achieve a lower extraction 
from
the grains.  If I sparge too slow I will risk extracting tannins from the 
grain.
Maybe these statement are too simplistic, or maybe completely wrong.
My question is - Is there a recommended sparging rate (ie.  gal / hr ) ?
Let the opinions fly !

Bruce Taber
taber at irc.lan.nrc.ca

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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 09:10:56 -0500
From: denisb at CAM.ORG (Denis Barsalo)
Subject: Propane use / inside cooking

Denis Barsalo wrote:
>>        What about those outdoor cookers everybody is using. Can I use one
>>when it's -10F outside? Can they be modified to be used with natural gas?
>>(That way I could use it inside)

Then Bob McCowan wrote:
>Does converting a cajun cooker to NG really make it safe to use inside?  Is
>propane always unsafe?  Seems to me that many rural houses cook with propane
>and the inhabitants are not dying of CO poisoning.

        The problem as I understand it is not a CO issue but more the fact
that propane is heavier than air. Any slight leak or unburned fuel will
collect in the basement of your house. Sooner or later, an open flame will
ingnite it and then *BOOM*!

Denis Barsalo



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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 95 13:53:01 -0500
From: "Jim Webb" <"webb_j%Organization=Mineral Sector Analysis Branch%Telephone=705-670-5889" at a1.torv05.umc>
Subject: Stopper stuck in carboy

[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]

Chuck Burkins asked:

>So does anyone know how to remove the $0.79 stopper without 
>breaking the $20.00 carboy?. I use this carboy as my secondary. 
>I have considered just sanitizing the carboy, stopper and all, 
>and using it for my secondary anyway, but I am worried about 
>what can be extracted out of a gum stopper by 3-5% ethanol. Am I 
>worrying too much? Is My Carboy Ruined ? (IMCR?) Any help would 
>be greatly appreciated.

Although I haven't had a stopper stuck in a carboy, I think the 
problem is the same as a cork pushed into a wine bottle -- a 
problem that is easily and sneakily solved.  Here is an trick I 
learned while working in the bush as a geologist:  HOW TO OPEN A 
WINE BOTTLE WITHOUT A CORKSCREW (OR REMOVE A FLOATING BUNG IN A 
CARBOY):

 - Push the cork into the bottle (on purpose). The cork will float 
into the narrowed neck of the bottle.
 - Tie a knot into the end of a shoelace and thread it into the 
bottle past the cork until the knot is below the cork
 - Start pulling up gently and steadily.  The shoelace, with the 
knot below the cork, will be squeezed between the cork and the 
glass and will pull the cork out quite easily.

I think this will work on a carboy -- fill the carboy with water 
and make sure the stopper is in an upright (or upside down) 
position.   Let us know if it works -- I've seen this question 
posed on the HBD before, without anyone providing an answer.

Jim Webb
Sudbury Ontario

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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 09:38:52 -0500
From: Bob McCowan <bob.mccowan at cfrp.varian.com>
Subject: Re: Boiled kegs

>Mike> Is boiling water a viable means of sanitizing cornelius kegs?  I
>Mike> have been pouring a couple of quarts of boiling water and
>Mike> sloshing in my cornys between the last few batches, and haven't
>Mike> yet had an infection problem.  
>I truly don't believe this is adequate.  Do you force water out of all
>the QD fittings?  Even if you do, boiling water is not sufficient.
>Boiling *in* water for a prolonged period of time is, but just adding
>boiling water is not.
>
True enough, but if you sanitize with iodophor and you fewel the need to rinse,
then a boiled water rinse is reasonable.  The O-rings should be able to take
it.  You could fill the thing with 200F+ water and let it sit for a while.

Of course, if your prior batch was not infected, chances are you can get away
with just this rinse.  Make sure that the inside is clean, and you're most of
the way there.  Hot water (w/TSP or B-Brite) through the fittings helps clean 
them out.  The following was suggested to me.

>For the Cleaning of Kegs, try the powderd line cleaner.
>I've used it for my 15.5 gal Brewing kegs and my five 
>gallon soda kegs.  It works great for cleaning and is
>designed for Beer Draft Systems.
>
>Stephen
><stephen at ccnet.com>

I haven't tried this yet, but may look for a source.

BTW, sorry about my last post, I guess I didn't to a good job w/ cut and paste.
Bob McCowan
bob.mccowan at cfrp.varian.com


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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 95 09:38:05 EST
From: winters at ICD.Teradyne.COM (Ed Winters )
Subject: Mash tun/Specialty Grains?/Propane

Mash Tun
I bought a round Gott cooler for my mashing when I began all-grain several
years ago.  It was a disaster!  I believed I could just simply add boiling
water to increase the temp.  Well, as the volume increases, so does the
required amount of water.  Before I knew what was going on, I was out of hot
water and the mash was soup!  "Don't worry, have a Homebrew!" my book
said.  So I did.  The brew turned out OK.  Lately I have been mashing in a
stainless pot (rapped in a blanket).  Add boiling water for major temp
jumps and on the stove (low low heat) for fine adjustments.  How do you
"cooler" users add heat to the mash?

Specialty Grains
Thanks Charlie for the first good explanation of how "Crystal Malt" is made.
(Homebrew Digest #1896)  But what are some of those other specialty malts?
Toasted malt is obvious.  I believe Black malt is nothing more that burnt
barley.  What about Chocolate malt, dextrin malt?  How are they made?
Anybody know?

Propane
I brewed a all-grain last weekend with my King-Cooker burner indoors!
My kitchen is about as small as they get.  I'm not DEAD!
I never even got any symptoms of CO intoxication.  I just set my cooker
close to my stove and turned on the exhaust fan high (vents outside).
I boiled 3 gal for mash/sparging and boiled the wort for 1 hour.  It
was going for nearly three hours!  Am I killing more brain cells
than my beer is?

Ed Winters
winters at ICD.Teradyne.COM
Boston, Ma

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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 09:39:14 -0600
From: rich.adam at mayo.edu (Adam Rich)
Subject: extract storage

Hello:
        I am wonderign about the storage of malt extract.  I have taken to
buying 40lb containers of extract sicne it is cheaper, and reduces the
frequency of trips to the store.  This translates to approximately 5 or 6
batches which takes me about 8 weeks to brew.  
        While brewign my last batch with this extract I noticed a funny
smell from the container.  Bacteria must surely grow in this extract.  I am
not worried abotu contamination of my beer since the wort gets boiled but
what about byproducts of bacterial growth?  Will this be similar to the
overnight-mashing problems that have been recently discussed?
        I wonder if this will later the final product, the brewed beer?  Is
this yet another variable that I need to consider?  Any related experiences?
thanks,
Adam Rich
=====================================================================
Adam Rich                     Dept. of Physiology and Biophysics
richa at mayo.edu                Guggenheim 9, Mayo Foundation
119 1/2 11'th ave NW          507-284-0879 (lab)/ 507-252-8115 (home)
Rochester, MN 55901
=====================================================================


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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 95 8:48:33 CST
From: Larry N. Lowe <lnl at apwk01g3.abrfc.noaa.gov>
Subject: another caramel ?

greetings to all in cyber-brew-space

  upon reading posts about carmalization, i have a related
question. i have yet to purchase an adequate size SS pan.
my is only 12qt...gasp. in other words, when i boil my extract,
i am doing so in only gallon-n-half (or less) of water. what effects 
does this have on my beer? i have noticed my beer is darker than a
fellow homebrewer (comparitive styles of course). is this due to 
the amount of water for the boil? are their any taste issues?
TIA 
- --
from: Larry N. Lowe
      NOAA, National Weather Service
      Arkansas-Red Basin River Forecast Center
      10159 East 11th St,  Suite 300
      Tulsa, Oklahoma 74128-3050
      lnl at apwk01g3.abrfc.noaa.gov
      Off: (918)832-4109  FAX: (918)832-4101

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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 95 10:08:34 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Bread yeast and beer

"Kevin A. Kutskill" <75233.500 at compuserve.com>says in HBD 1895:
>   I have a friend
>   (honestly, it is a friend and not me) who thought he had
>   a dead packet of dried yeast and used regular bread
>   yeast to ferment his first batch of homebrew.  Is my
>   friend's beer ruined?  Never heard of this
>   before--wondering if anyone has any information about
>   the taste characteristics of bread yeast (red star
>   brand). Looking forward to tasting a slice of it when it
>   is done :-).

Is this friend of yours a student at the U of M, and is his beer a brown
ale?  My son just gave me a bottle to critique that a fraternity brother
brewed with *exactly* the same history!  Since you live nearby, it seems
too close to be a coincidence.  I was asked to wait a few weeks to try
it, so it sits next to me now on my desk.

Anyway, beer and bread yeasts are the same species with similar origins
historically, but they have been selected for different characteristics.
Bread yeast is a very poor flocculator and so is reputed to have a
yeasty taste, but if it is settled out, I'll bet it has normal ale
characteristics.  Of more concern to me would be the likelihood of
contamination.  Until the last few years, dried beer yeast was
notoriously impure.  Contaminants are not a very serious problem with
bread dough, which is "pitched" much more heavily than wort and which
ferments for a few hours and is then baked.  For that reason, I suspect
that the manufacturers are not so concerned with absolute purity as they
are with beer yeasts.  The cultures are pure, it's the drying and
packaging that introduce contaminants.

A few years ago (before liquid yeasts were easily available), someone
reported success in Zymurgy using the middle of a one pound block of
fresh (not dried) bread yeast.  They reasoned that the center was nearly
pure and it was an easy way of getting one hell of a pitching rate,
which would overcome contaminants.  They reported a clean tasting ale,
as I recall.

I'd say to your friend to relax, try to bottle with as little yeast as
possible (use gelatin at racking), don't shake the bottles, and drink it
up soon if it shows signs of incipient infection.  Millions of gallons
of homebrew have been successfully, if not wonderfully, brewed with
bread yeast.

- ---
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu


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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 95 10:26:00 EST
From: "Dulisse, Brian" <bbd4 at CIPCOD1.EM.CDC.GOV>
Subject: fritz vs. jim redux


in response to my recent post noting the similarities of the legal actions 
of fritz maytag and jim koch, russell mast argues that "just because it's 
legal don't make it right."  i would agree with the sentiment (as well as 
the obverse, just because it's illegal don't make it wrong  :-)  ).  but i 
think this misses the point.  koch is generally ripped in this digest for 
his litigiousness.  what i am asking is why exactly is it that when koch 
tries to prevent the marketing of products that could free ride off of his 
advertising budget it's bad, but when maytag prevents all other brewers from 
using the recognized term for a style of beer it's ok?  in both cases, the 
brewer fears that the existence of products with names similar to his own 
product might harm the image of his own product;  this fear is justified (in 
a previous job i spent alot of time going through consumer responses to ads 
and product names, and you'd be surprised how confused they get over very 
simple things when dealing with remotely similar product names).  my point 
was that it's kind of incongruous to see koch ripped all the time, and also 
to see maytag praised (often by the same people), when they are engaging in 
essentially the same activity.

whether or not koch has a reputation for caring more about profits than beer 
(or even whether or not he actually does) is completely irrelevant; if it 
were not, then we wouldn't even have a pretense of equality before the law, 
but would instead revert to a middle age society where one's legal status 
depended on his beliefs.  saying that maytag makes beer for the sake of beer 
and koch makes beer for the sake of profits is thus far a normative (i.e., a 
value judgement) rather than a positve (something which can be tested) claim 
(we'd need to check out the returns on investment for each company, at a 
minimum).  i prefer anchor's beers to sam adams' beers; most of the people 
reading this digest probably do as well.  but a huge number of people have 
preferences that differ from ours.  ok, so we're maytag's target audience, 
and the great unwashed is koch's.  koch is still making beer that they want. 
 who are we to say that because a company is making a product that we don't 
like as much as another product, the company does not care about their 
product?  under this logic, a devotee of miller genuine draft would be 
justified in claiming that maytag doesn't care about beer for beer's sake. 
 does ford not care about the cars they produce because they aren't making 
rolls royces?  of course not.  terms like "good" or "quality" or whatever 
are not defined as "what i like."

although i don't think he believes it, russell puts the point i was trying 
to raise well: maybe maytag and koch are more alike than we (the collective) 
tend to think.

my contribution to reducing the bandwidth of this is to omit the spirited 
defense of the pursuit of profits.  although personally, i find this more 
interesting than award lists from competitions.  ;-)

bd

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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 95 10:50:38 EST
From: Pierre Jelenc <pcj1 at columbia.edu>
Subject: Compressed air

In HOMEBREW Digest #1896 wa5dxp at mail.sstar.com (Jim Overstreet) says:
> Subject: Disturbing Pub Trend
> 
> In the New Orleans area, there has been a very disturbing and I think
> very negative trend at places serving "craft beers".  Over the last several
> months, it appears most of the pubs have switched over to an "air delivery"
> system of pushing beer, in place of the old CO2 method.  

That seems to be totally counter to what's happening in New York. Here,
until very recently, every draft beer but Guinness was dispensed via
compressed air. Today, probably 99% is _still_ being dispensed that way
but there are signs of improvement as little by little the better taverns
switch over to either CO2 or G mix. 

Pierre

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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 95 08:55:02 -0700
From: gmccarthy at dayna.com (Gary McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Wort to Prime

Mark:

You wrote in HBD 1896:
>I want to start priming with either malt extract or wort saved from brew day.
<snip> 
>What amount of extract is sufficient for adequate carbonation?

I always use wort saved from brew day to prime.  Now others will prob give you
a formula for the amount, and I believe that in MJOHB there is an easy formula
based on 5  gal and the OG.  Me, I just use a quart canning jar (mandatory
sertilization, even though I am not a fanatic) full of wort.  I store that in
the frig (whoops sorry, fridge!!  Need to remember "Frig is an activity".) for
the two weeks or so that I let my batches ferment out.  I get the carbonation
I like, fairly lightly carbonated.  Makes a good 2-3 in head with a full
bottle pour, and retains some head for most of the consumption time.  And
retaining head is important!!  :-)

>How much longer does it take to carbonate using extract? <snip>
>What are the advantages of krausening with wort saved from brew day(?)

I don't think it takes any longer, but then I like light carbonation.
Advantages:  I have never had a gusher batch with wort priming, but I had
several with corn sugar priming.  Don't have to buy sugar.  That jar in the
fridge is a reminder to bottle(from the wife).  I guess there are some taste
advantages.

Gary McCarthy in SLC            I like my women a little on the trashy side.
gmccarthy at dayna.com            Jerry Jeff Walker

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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 11:19:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Filters/Koch/Dilution

Im interested in filters for homebrewers.  I know a good bit about the
cartridge type filters sold for brewing but are there others that folks
are using?  Does anyone know of a plate style filter sold for homebrewers?

RE:Jim Koch.  Did anyone notice how much money Jim is personally pocketing
from the stock offering?  I dont mind business going public and then as sales
increase or some value is added to the corporation a kickback is given to
the people running it, but this is pure pocketing.   

Doug writes:
<So, now that I know to adjust the ph, I'm trying to find a supplier of
<food-grade lactic acid (88% aqueous),

How bout using Phosphoric acid.  Its commonly used for the same purpose.
BT lists this as a supplier: George Hrouda Associates, Box 7061, Moreno Valley
Ca, 92552.  909-924-7342.

Delano (adjunct boy) says:
<2) Columbus can be replaced by Centennial, but Columbus 
<gives an especially grotesque, tasty oily hoppiness.

Thats the first time Ive heard of using grotesque and tasty in the same hop
description!  What would HopUnion say?

Tim says:
<One of the latest experiments I've dreamed up is making a concentrated mild 
<ale and diluting it to 10 gallons in the secondary.

Id dilute pre-fermentation.  

Good brewing,

Jim Busch

Coming soon to Philadelphia beer lovers: 
A Victory For Your Taste, Victory Brewing Co, Downingtown, Pa.
Featuring: Ur-Maerzen, Lager, IPA and seasonals 

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Date: Wed,  29 Nov 95 11:27:25 EST
From: Thomas Williams <TJWILLIA at VM.OCC.CC.MI.US>
Subject: Belgium Select

Dear Friends:

I know that this is not strictly HB related, but I need the info. anyway ;{)

A *friend* will be traveling back to Belgium in the next few weeks and has
offered to bring back a few bottles of their best.  My question is:  if you
more experienced Belgian beer drinkers had to select the six *most* available
beers that represent the best from that country, what would they be?  I don't
see myself traveling there in the near future, and my friend is not the most
well versed in beer as one would hope.  Could you/ would you please e-mail me
your most choicest selections?  TIA

Tom Williams
Milford, MI


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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 95 10:57:33 -0600
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (Ronald J. La Borde)
Subject: Gas Burners

>Gregg Writes: "Gregg A. Howard" <102012.3350 at compuserve.com>
>Subject: Gas Burners
>
>   While reading all the traffic on various fuels and burners, it occurred
to me
>that a salvaged NG burner from a water heater might be the basis of a good high
>output cooker.  It then occurred to me that since this is such a dandy
idea, I'm
>probably not the first one to think of it.  Does anyone have any experience
with
>same?
>

I have no experience with hot water heater burners.  No easy way to get an
old heater to my house so I can hack it apart.  I do see many old heaters
waiting for the trash pickup to come by.  In my area the normal method of
disposal is the front lawn!  How is it in the rest of the country?  Does
come in handy if you have a truck.  Also a great source of supply for
washers, dryers, fridges (sans doors), etc.

Here's something new to mull over.  One day something flashed into my mind.
(Oh it happerns often and I have just learned to live with it).

The flash I had was to use the heating apparatus from a gas clothes dryer!!!!
All the ones I have seen are auto ignited and seem to throw out a single
flame.  The temperature is controlled by on/off so it would lend itself to
automation (RIMS people take note) Has anyone tried this before?  I know
there are people who love to tinker and this seems like a tinkerers dream.

PLEASE, PLEASE, be carefull and know well what you are getting into as
regards to the dangers of playing with gas and fire. Travel at your own risk
and caution and knowledge.
also here is my CYA (cover your a..) for any and all adverse results from
this idea.

Happy brewing


*******************************************************************
* Ronald J. La Borde |                                            *
* Work (504)568-4842 | "If the only tool you have is a hammer,    *
* Home (504)837-0672 |  you tend to see every problem as a nail." * 
* Metairie, LA       |                                            *
*******************************************************************


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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 95 9:55:02 PST
From: Scott Kaczorowski <kacz at aisf.com>
Subject: Sanitizing kegs


Dion says in HBD #1896:

Dion> Mike> Is boiling water a viable means of sanitizing cornelius kegs?
Dion> 
Dion> I truly don't believe this is adequate.  Do you force water out of all
Dion> the QD fittings?  Even if you do, boiling water is not sufficient.
Dion> Boiling *in* water for a prolonged period of time is, but just adding
Dion> boiling water is not.

I go a little overboard and I sanitize with iodophor and then do two
rinses with boiling water.  The first rinse is about a quart to preheat
the keg, and the second is more like two quarts.  I run the hot water
out both QDs and the relief valve in the lid.  I do this for insurance
and because I simply cannot bring myself to not rinse any sanitizing
solution including iodophor (I'm out of Bud Light for the latter purpose
and just can't bring myself to buy more).

I backpack and "they" used to say to boil all drinking water for ten
minutes.  The new direction is to simply bring water to a boil.  I
believe that anything we need to be (reasonably) concerned about is
killed more or less instantly upon contact with boiling or near-boiling
water.  I suppose there are organisms that laugh at a brief dip in
boiling water, but we're talking about finished beer here.  Didn't
somebody post recently about the relatively low (160F-ish?) temps used
to pasteurize milk?  IMO, Mike's treatment with boiling water alone
will work fine.

Dion> Mike> Could this damage (melt, deform)
Dion> Mike> soft rubber o-rings?  A search of back issues of the HBD reveals
Dion> Mike> at least one comment to this effect. Any other opinions?  

Just keep the contact time short.  I've not had a problem.

Dion> Mike> Hey, it sure is cheaper than Idophor....
Dion> 
Dion> I don't know why people get the idea that Iodophor is expensive.
Dion> ... It costs me $22 per gallon, ...

I think the issue is that it's expensive compared to bleach.  At $2.50
a gallon, you save $19.50 over Dion's price for iodophor (No, I'm not
suggesting the amounts used are the same.  Similar, though.)

Dion> Another reader Emailed me how he uses several corny kegs in series and
Dion> transfers sterile water and iodophor in a series so he puts a clean
Dion> unsanitary keg at the end of the line, forces the sterile water from
Dion> the first keg into the second keg which holds iodophor, which forces
Dion> the iodophor into the empty keg.  He then takes the first keg off the
Dion> line and it is empty and purged with CO2.  Not a drop of iodophor
Dion> lost.
Dion>
Dion> If you keep an iodophor solution sealed up in a corny keg, it will
Dion> last indefinitely.

A while ago, Dion was asking about test strips to try to gauge the
effectiveness of old iodophor solution.  That is, he didn't believe
that the mere presence of color meant the solution was still viable.
Dion, did you convince yourself that if it still has color it still
has value?  If so, what convinced you?  The kegs-in-series trick
sounds like a good one, but long-term viability concerns me.


Scott Kaczorowski
Long Beach, CA
kacz at aisf.com


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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 95 10:32:40 PST
From: Brad Brim <bradb at hpnmhjw.sr.hp.com>
Subject: Stoppers inside carboys

Re: Stopper Stuck in Carboy


In digest #1865 Jeff Hewit relates his experience in removing a stopper from
the inside of a carboy.

> ... I took a piece of flexible electrical wire (from a lamp cord) and was
> able to run it through the hole in the stopper.  A ran about an additional
> foot or so beyond the exit hole of the stopper, and using a hook fashioned
> from a coat hanger, retrieved the other end of the wire.  Now having both
> ends of the wire, I was able to pull the stopper out sideways.

Good idea, Jeff!


In digest #1896 Chuck Burkins relates his unfortunate experience with having
a solid (undrilled) stopper inside a carboy.

> I have a solid gum stopper that I use to plug the carboy. After bleaching
> the stopper, I rinsed it under hot water, put it in the neck of the carboy
> and plop! it went right in...  So does anyone know how to remove the $0.79
> stopper without breaking the $20.00 carboy?.


For those of you may accidentally end up with an undrilled stopper in your
carboy there is also a simple extraction solution:

  Obtain about 18 inches of strong string, I use a light weight nylon string.
  Hold onto the two ends and dangle the loop of string into the top of the
  carboy.  Tip the carboy upside down, or very nearly so.  The stopper will
  now be at or near the neck of the carboy.  Position the loop of string
  across the middle of one of the flat sides of the stopper.  This may take
  a few tries but you will succeed with patience.  Now pull on the string
  slowly and steadily to tighten the loop across the bottom of the stopper
  and move it snugly into the neck of the carboy.  Now pull hard on the
  string and the stopper will come out of the carboy.
  
  Hints:
    - It is much easier to pull the stopper out skinny side first.
    - A (very) little water makes a great lubricant for this process
      and doesn't affect the maneuverability of the string.
    - Make sure the loop of string is across the middle of the stopper,
      otherwise it can slip off the stopper when you pull hard on it.

I learned this trick in cleaning out wine bottles obtained from a restaurant
for bottling homemade wine.  About 5% of the bottles had parts of the cork
pushed into the bottles.  With a little practice you can do this in less than
half a minute.


Brad Brim  (95/11/29)
  bradb at sr.hp.com
  Santa Rosa, CA

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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 12:46:46 -0600
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Whiney Taste?


> From: Mark Redman <redman at vivid.net>

> I have been an all-grain brewer for a couple of years, and still bottle with
> a corn sugar prime. I recently entered a brewing contest, and although I won
> a couple of third place awards, I was counted off for a "whiney" taste
> attributed to corn sugar.

The judges were simply misattributing the off-flavor.  There may well be a 
winey taste to your beers, but the amount of corn sugar used in priming 
is pretty miniscule, and not enough to cause this flavor.  

Beer judges are valuable sources for critique and improving your technique, 
but they are not infallible.  I had several well-respected judges at a club
meeting try to guess to the source of undue bitterness in a recent batch of
beer.  Three judges had three guesses, none of them right, and I had a 
different theory, whichthey all thought was poppycock.  (Turns out it was,
my -real- problem was water chemistry, too much sulfate.)

 -R

ps.  Did I mention the T-shirts?  100% cotton.  Fashion statement of the
century.

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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 19:41:26 +0100 (MET)
From: Carl Etnier <Carl.Etnier at abc.se>
Subject: ultracontaminated beer/homebrewers in Oslo?

I posted a few months ago about an experiment I was making with
contaminating beer. Years ago I degraded my bottle cleansing
procedures from a chlorine bleach solution and cold water rinse to
rinsing the used bottles a couple times immediately with hot water
and then once with very hot water right before bottling. Not an
infected bottle yet.

Wondering how far I could go, I spit in the last, half-full bottle
that I bottled in several batches, and marked it "infected". I have
opened two of them now, one a pale ale and the other a dark bock.  I
can discern almost no difference between these "infected" bottles and 
the
other bottles from the same batch. (No smart remarks now about how my
beer in general must taste, please.) The saliva bock does have less 
carbonation than the normal bock and is a little sweeter. 

Could the lack of carbonation have to do with the fact that the 
saliva-innoculated bottle was only 1/3 full? I've never noticed this 
effect before on last-of-the-batch, incompletely filled bottles.  I 
can't think of any theoretical grounds for the difference, either.

While I still wouldn't recommend this as a bottling procedure--you
might get dry in the mouth spitting 50-70 times per bottling session
:-)--it's a couple data points for the old debate about whether to 
suck
on the siphon or not. 

- -----------------

I'll be living in Oslo, Norway from January on. I'd like to meet the
homebrewers there and swap beer, mead, pyment, etc. Can any Oslo
brewers out there get in touch with me, please? Or anybody who knows
about the homebrew scene there? Thanks.

Carl Etnier
A transplanted Yank in Trosa, Sweden
Number of days since last snowfall: 3



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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1897, 11/30/95