FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  boiled kegs (Rob Lauriston)
  Report on recipe (Gary McCarthy)
  Arizona (Jack Schmidling)
  (Brew)Pubs in Albany? (Lib)" <tmcdowel at library.bhs.org>
  Extract FAQ (William Shelton)
  Brandy Recipe (Aesoph, Michael)
  Adding heat to plastic mash tuns (coolers) (Art Steinmetz)
  Electric stove element (gravels)
  Mashing in Oven - OK? (Mike White)
  Riverside Brewing? ("Tracy Aquilla")
  Stove Mashes (SCHWAB_BRYAN)
  Cheap vent system (Matt_K)
  Thoughts While Brewing (Jeff Stampes)
  Corn sugar / FG (krkoupa)
  EasyMasher/cooler lid question (Algis R Korzonas)
  Re: Where has all the water gone, long time passing etc. (KennyEddy)
  HBD Reader Update; Fermentation Temperature Control (KennyEddy)
  Steam Heat, 'Clovey' taste (Kelly E Jones)
  Quality (long, rambling). (Russell Mast)
  CO2 in solution, high/low temp conditioning (Kelly Jones    Intel Portland Technology Development)
  Low tech aeration: (Joseph.Fleming)
  Re. Mashing in Oven - OK? (Bob Waterfall)
  CO datapoint/DMS (Algis R Korzonas)
  Racking Wort from SABCO Boiler (TMartyn)
  Sam Adams Homebrew Competition ("Penn, Thomas")
  Buying a refrigerator or freezer? (tim_lawson)
  Mashing:  KEEP YOUR LID SHUT! (Ed Winters )



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sun, 3 Dec 95 18:40 PST
From: robtrish at mindlink.bc.ca (Rob Lauriston)
Subject: boiled kegs 

A number of digests ago, Michael Owings asked about sanitizing cornelius
kegs with boiling water.

> Is boiling water a viable means of sanitizing cornelius kegs?  I have
been pouring a couple of quarts of boiling water and sloshing in my
cornys between the last few batches...

I think that this is the *best* way to sanitize Cornelius kegs because the
heat can penetrate into the nooks and crannies around the valves where
liquid sanitizers might not reach.  After I put the boiling water in and put
the lid on, I turn it upside down and briefly snap an 'in' tap on so that
some hot water shoots out the gas valve.  This one doesn't get dirty from
beer or foam, so I figure that this is good enough.  Then I put the keg
right side up again and put on an out fitting with a length of hose
attached.  The steam usually isn't enough pressure to empty the keg, so I
put some CO2 pressure on it.  The point of this is to sanitize the out line
and especially the poppet valve at the top.  Then I put a second kettle full
of boiling water in and let it sit for a while to get a good time/temp kill.
No, it's not autoclaving, but it's a good part of a cleaning regime.
Pressurizing with CO2 helps prevent the keg from sucking bad air when the
steam condenses.  If I'm not using the keg right away, I put in a small
amount of a liquid sanitizer and shoot some of that out the out line.

More confessions of an ARB:

Like any other method of sanitation, it assumes the keg is already clean.
(The heat could sanitize small amounts of dirt.)  I ran a T from my domestic
hot water line, put a ball valve on it with a hose and a corny QD out
fitting on the end of that.  When I want to rinse a keg, I snap on the out
tap and run water down the out tube.  While some people warn about
thermophilic bacteria in hot water supplies, I figure it's cleaner than my
cold water and that the chlorine will have been driven off.  (I don't think
I'm getting a water filter for Xmas.)  Since the water is running in the
opposite direction compared to beer dispensing, I figure this helps to
backwash out particles in the poppet, like pieces of hop.  I don't like
taking the poppets apart anymore because I think it leads to premature wear
and is a PITA, esp. reassembly.  When the keg is visually clean, I siphon a
solution of caustic soda into the keg from a second keg, and then back out
again.  Don't use caustic (sodium hydroxide) with the plastic nylon
fittings, because they will crack.  Siphoning the caustic back out should
help clean the out line.  Then my hot water hook-up rinses out the caustic
quite nicely and I'm ready to boil out the keg. 

The caustic does crack some of the plastic seals on the poppets (nylon?),
and they have to be periodically replaced when they start to leak.  I still
find taking the poppets apart to clean them makes them leak even sooner.

I've probably missed some posts on this subject, but I agree with one I
read;  when a keg is empty, if I have another beer using the same yeast
waiting to be racked, I might just rinse out the yeast.

    Rob Lauriston                          <robtrish at mindlink.bc.ca>
    The Low Overhead Brewery                        Vernon, B. C.


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Date: Sat, 2 Dec 95 09:15:02 -0700
From: gmccarthy at dayna.com (Gary McCarthy)
Subject: Report on recipe

Hello members of the (Borg) collective:

A while back I posted a recipe asking for opinions on the content.  I received
one reply :-(  , advising me to put like 4 oz of chocolate malt in as I was
trying to get a Brown out of the recipe.  Well, I didn't listen, and ended up
with more of an IPA than a Brown.  But thats okay too.  The taste is sweet and
very hoppy.  I reccomend this recipe, with the addition of 4 oz chocolate and
the subtraction of 8 oz of the carastan.

Kiss My Abbey(5 gal)

7 lbs 2-row
3 lbs Munich (prob 10. L)
1 lb carastan malt
1 lb brown malt
1 oz Columbia (alpha-15%)   1 oz Chinook (alpha-12%)

Protein rest - 15 min at 121.F.  Starch conversion - 2 hrs at 151-141.F, 30
mins at 160. F.  Mash out - 5 min at 168.F.  Sparge, boil, add all hops at 60
min before end of boil.  SG - 1.060.  FG - 1.020.  Bottled 30 - 12oz and 16
pints.

Gary McCarthy                  No fooling, it's a fu**ed up world!
gmccarthy at dayna.com      So be cool, my little junkie girl!  Walter Becker
                                      (the beatles would never sing a cool
line like that!)

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Date: Sat, 2 Dec 95 08:17 CST
From: arf at mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Arizona

 
 I am looking for someone who is in contact with the Arizona 
 Society of Homebrewers.  Please email if you are.
 
 js
 

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Date: Sat, 02 Dec 95 12:59:00 PST
From: "McDowell, Thomas Y. III (Lib)" <tmcdowel at library.bhs.org>
Subject: (Brew)Pubs in Albany?

Hi all,

I'm going to Albany next weekend and wondered if anyone knew of any good 
pubs, preferably brew pubs, in the Albany, NY area.  If so, I would 
appreciate an email with the name of the place, as well as directions, 
address, or phone number if you have it. My email address is as follows:
TMCDOWEL at LIBRARY.BHS.ORG
                                                       Thanx,

                                                         Tym, III


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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 20:34:18 +0000
From: William Shelton <William.Shelton.0206973 at nt.com>
Subject: Extract FAQ

Is there a FAQ on malt extracts somewhere?  I know from previous HBD =
threads that I can expect higher FG with Laaglander, but are there other =
things that I should know about other extracts.
If people want to send their responses to me directly, I will summarize =
the responses I get and post.

Bill Shelton
NORTEL Federal Systems
william_shelton at nt.com


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Date: 04 Dec 95 08:28:54 EST
From: aesoph%ncemt.ctc.com at ctcga.ctc.com (Aesoph, Michael)
Subject: Brandy Recipe

Dear Collective:



	Just thought I would post a Brandy Recipe given to me by a friend.  Give 
it a try.



3 Qt Fruit

3 Gal. Water at 112F

1 Small Cake Champagne Yeast

10# Sugar, best is Cane, not Beet

3 Quartered Lemons



Stir once everyday for 7 days.  Add 4# raisins.  Let stand 21 days and 
remove fruit and siphon.  Let stand 5 days, siphon and bottle.



	It's really kind of disappointing brewing anything but beer.  Wine, 
Brandy, liquors and other stuff generally don't require boiling...  No 
boiling, no good smell.  As a matter of fact, a wine making friend of 
mine says, "There's no such thing as a bad bug!"



					Mike Aesoph



      =================================================

      == You can sell your time, but you can never buy it back. ==

      =================================================


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Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 08:29:47 -0500
From: asteinm at pipeline.com (Art Steinmetz)
Subject: Adding heat to plastic mash tuns (coolers)

winters at ICD.Teradyne.COM (Ed Winters ) writes:   
 
>How do you "cooler" users add heat to the mash? 
 
Some folks have no problem hitting necessary temps with boiling water
infusions.  I use steam injection.  A pressuure cooker with a steam spigot
pumps steam through a copper pipe into the mash.  I achive very fine temp.
control this way and setup/breakdown of the equipment is a breeze.  I
avoided multi-step infusions in the past.  Now I do it all the time.  

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Date: Mon, 04 Dec 95 08:34:07 EST
From: gravels at TRISMTP.npt.nuwc.navy.mil
Subject: Electric stove element

Hi Ed,

Ed Iacofano posted in HBD #1890 about a canning replacement burner for 
his electric stove.  I am interested in replacing mine with one of 
these.  Ed, would you please let me know where you purchased it and 
the manufacturers address and phone number if you have it.  I tried to 
e-mail you directly, but it kept bouncing.  Thanks. 

Sorry for the waste of BW. 

          Steve Gravel          Newport, Rhode Island
               gravels at TRISMTP.npt.nuwc.navy.mil
      "Homebrew, it's not just a hobby it's an adventure!"





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Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 08:03:27 -0600
From: mike at datasync.com (Mike White)
Subject: Mashing in Oven - OK?

On Fri, 1 Dec, Jeff Hewit wrote:

>
>Reagrding mashing in an oven - can it be done?
>
>I am thinking about putting crushed grain in a pot 
>with warm water, and putting it in the oven at 155 deg or so.
>After about an hour, I would strain with hot water, like I
>currently do with specialty grain.  Will this work?
>I am also considering buying a mini lauter tun, and
>putting it in the oven.  Is this idea any good? 

My Reply:

I just bought a new stove/oven.  Admittedly it was the least expensive
electric range I could find.  However the oven thermostat is about 40
degrees F. out of calibration.  (Setting the thermostat at 350 degrees
resulted in 390 degrees in the oven.) 

In order to bake anything properly I had to buy an oven thermometer to allow
me to monitor the temperature accurately.  This thermometer sits on the
grate in the oven where I can see it through the oven window.  Watching this
thermometer function has revealed that my oven cycles up and down about 30
degrees F.

For instance if I set it on 150 degrees F. (which is 110 degrees in my
screwed up oven) it will heat up until it reaches 165 degrees then shut off
the heating element until it cools to 135 degrees. This cycling will
continue , thereby averaging 150 degrees, for as long as the oven is on.

Not being an all grain brewer I'm not sure how this cycling will affect your
wort.  However after his experience and after watching several chefs on
television discussing temperature variations in ovens I suggest you at least
buy an oven thermometer from your local department store (about $4 American)
and put it in your oven.
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Thought for the day:

That's my answer, aren't you sorry you asked?.
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Mike White
mike at datasync.com


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Date: Mon, 4 Dec 95 09:52:50 CST
From: "Tracy Aquilla" <aquilla at salus.med.uvm.edu>
Subject: Riverside Brewing?

In Digest #1900:
RANDY ERICKSON <RANDYE at mid.org> sez:
>A buddy and I will be in Riverside, California next week.  Anyone know
>of a good spot for great beer?  We'll be staying near the University.
>
>I'm in the mood for a good Brown Sky Brown Ale, or something similar.

Yeah, but this time of year it should be almost blue.
I think there is more than one place to get decent beer in Riverside these
days. I went to grad school in Riverside but unfortunately, the good beer
arrived shortly after I left. I think Riverside Brewing won a medal at the
GABF this past year, but don't remember the details and don't know the exact
location of the brewery. Not much help, am I? In any case, I'm sure you'll
find it (phone book, students pointing the way?) and I'd really appreciate
if you would report back and give us a critique of the products you try.
    Tracy in Vermont (missing Riverside about two weeks per year, in late April)
    aquilla at salus.med.uvm.edu

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Date: Mon, 04 Dec 95 08:59:45 CDT
From: SCHWAB_BRYAN at CCMAIL.ncsc.navy.mil
Subject: Stove Mashes

     
     Greetings Fellow Brewers:
     Yesterday Jeff Hewit asked about performing Mashes in a stove heated 
     to 155 degs or so.....
     
     From my experience over the past couple years I find this method 
     exteremly advantageous for me.
     My method is as follows ( for no other reason than simplicity)
     I remove my grains from the fridge and after formulating the recipe, I 
     put the grains/malts etc into a pot and put this into a preheated oven 
     set at about 155-170 to preheat the grains until the water is heated 
     to about 155 degrees. I then remove the pot and slowly pour/mix the 
     heated water into the grains. 
     When I have acheived the consitency I am searching for, I return the 
     pot with the mash into the stove and let this sit for roughly an hour 
     or so, doing Mash temp checks and stirs occassionally.
     
     Several times I have even raised the temp of the oven 20-30 degrees to 
     maintain the desired temp for the mash bed or to simplify "my" version 
     of a "Step Mash Process" which has been verified with a thermometer in 
     the Mash.  ( When I want to perform this simplified Step Mash, I 
     naturally add more water the original Mash to absorb the heat from the 
     oven and though the process may take a bit longer, it dosen't bother 
     me)
     I have even been distracted from the process by my kiddies several 
     times for several hours without any adverse effects over the outcome 
     of my desired results. 
     
     Working in the stove opposed to on the stove works for me, 
     as results from the '95 Santa Rosa Brewfest in Ft. Walton Fl, One Best 
     of Show for a Barleywine, 2 third Places for a Fruit and Specialty 
     Beer, and second place for recipe formulation! :)
     
     Try it Jeff, you won't be dissapointed, you will be actually amazed at 
     the simpilicity of it all!
     
     Bryan


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Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 10:21:04 est
From: Matt_K at ceo.sts-systems.ca
Subject: Cheap vent system

In HBD 1900 Steve Alexander wrote:
>One issue that never seems to come up in discussions of indoor
>brewing is that all water lost during the boil recondenses in the
>interior of your home.  <snip>
>If someone has a plan for an effective exhaust vent system this
>problem as well as the combustion gas problem would both be reduced.

I too had this problem and solved it by convincing my wife that we 
needed a new vent hood for the kitchen.   I brew in the basement using 
 my "bionic boiler" (converted keg with hot water heater element as 
heat  source) which plugs into the 220v dryer outlet.  Since I'm 
fairly close to the dryer anyway, I simply connect the old vent hood 
to the dryer exhaust duct and presto, most of the humidity and 
offending (not my opinion!!) brewing smells are whisked outside for 
the neighbors to enjoy.  While this is not perfect (the old vent is a 
little anemic) it has turned indoor brewing from a hoppy, sauna like 
experience into something much more acceptable to everyone else in the 
house.

Matt
In Montreal



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Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 08:37:34 -0700
From: Jeff Stampes <jeff.stampes at Xilinx.COM>
Subject: Thoughts While Brewing


So after a massive brewing autumn (well, as massive as we could manage)
where we whipped up enough homebrew to last each of us a while, my
brewing partner & I are on a holiday hiatus.  We've been doing 10 gallon
all-grain batches at his house, you see...

So now I[m back on my own again, and have been doing a little night-time
partial-mash/extract brewing.  I was making a pale ale yesterday, and
started to think (always dangerous...)..I currently do mashes with
2 lbs. Briess, .5 lb wheat, .5 lb. Dextrine, .5-1 lb. crystal, and
whatever specialty malts I choose to use.  I try to stay around 4 lb.
of grain, since that's what fits in my mini-mash system I've been using.

I started wondering why I need to do this every time...why not do a
larger full-scale mash, give it a brief boil for sanitation's sake, and
bottle it in gallon jugs?  If I used our standard equipment and mashed
enough grain to make 10 gallons of weak wort and bottled it, brewing on
brew night would consist of popping open two jugs, mixing in the 
extract, toss in the hops, and off I go.  One day of work gives me
5 easy brew sessions with all the benefits of a mini-mash.

I'm sure I'm missing something here, but it seems to me it would work...
I could even keg the wort in two kegs!  So what am I missing?  

- -- Jeff Stampes -- Xilinx, Inc. -- Boulder, CO -- jeff.stampes at xilinx.com --
- -- Only a fool would believe that anything I may say or do reflects upon  --
- -- my employer, my friends, my family, my roomate or my dog.  Ppphhbbtt!  --

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Date: Mon, 04 Dec 95 08:05:05 PST
From: krkoupa at ccmail2.srv.PacBell.COM
Subject: Corn sugar / FG

     Corn Sugar for Priming in Bottles
     I just read Don Put's article in the Nov/Dec '95 Brewing Techniques.  
     For 5 gallons, he uses 3/4 cup corn sugar in 1 pint of water.  For the 
     past 15 years I've been using Byron Burch's book's formula of 1/4 cup 
     corn sugar per gallon (or 5/4 cup corn sugar, in 1-2 cups water.)  I 
     don't think I'm over-priming.  If so, I've been doing it a long time.  
     I know, it depends on the style and your tastes, but:
     1.  How much corn sugar / water would be considered over-priming? 
     2.  How much corn sugar / water would be considered under-priming?
     3.  3/4 cup, 5/4 cup, does it really matter that much (as long as it's 
     not flat or bulging the caps or sweeter than you can stand)?
     
     Final Gravity
     I bought a bottle of beer that lists IBUs and FG on the label.  That's 
     a cool way of getting around publishing alcohol/vol content.  Of 
     course, you have to educate the average public.
     
     Question:  Do you measure Final Gravity before or after adding the 
     priming sugar?  I guess it depends on how you define "final."  Is 
     there a standard source of Final Gravity definition?
     
     Ken Koupal     krkoupa at ccmail2.pacbell.com


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Date: Mon, 4 Dec 95 10:15:09 CST
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: EasyMasher/cooler lid question

Paul writes:
>First:  The mash stuck twice, initially, and when I had to shut off the flow
>once halfway through.  I was able to restart it by "underletting" (i.e 15ml
>of water shot into the spigot with a syringe), but it did cause a bit of a
>mess.  My mash was 5# of pale ale malt and 1/2# crystal - neither crushed
>too fine. What was the problem? Stirring didnt help unstick it.

Paul and I talked about this offline, but in his private mail to me, he
did not mention the crush.  Perhaps this is the problem -- maybe the grain
was, indeed, crushed too fine.  I have brewed over 30 batches with an
Easymasher(tm) and have never had a set mash.  I did have a very slow
runoff with a mash that was 43% rye malt, but really that was my fault for
overshooting the beta-glucan rest.  After 3 hours of slow, but continuous
runnings, I got 7 gallons.  Final result was over 30 points/lb/gal but the
final runnings were still more than 1.020!
 
>Second:  I put a hose on the spigot to collect the wort, and at any flow
>less than max, the seam in the spigot made the seal leak - causing a flow
>of tiny bubbles to enter the flow hose.  Needless to say - this was causing
>oxidation from hell.  The only way to stop it was to apply pressure to the
>plastic hose near the seam.  Since the damn little brass spigot gets hot, and
>I really didnt feel like putting my finger on it for an hour, I just let the
>sparge go at full speed for most of the time - giving me a poor yield.

On my personal system, I don't rely on the spigot valve to regulate the
flow -- I use an adjustable hose clamp lower down on the hose.  I have the
spigot valve either open 100% or closed completely.  I had some air leakage
too on my first use but fixed that with a hose clamp.  I put some duct tape
over the hose before putting on the hose clamp because the plain, old vinyl
hose gushed out the "sprocket holes" of the clamp when the vinyl got hot.
The tape just keeps the clamp from "digging in."

I was skeptical of the EM initially and expected to use it once or twice
and go to a Gott mashtun, but have stuck with it and am pleased with the
results.  I plan to step up to a keg-based system soon and will probably
go with a SABCO tun fitted with a matching EasyMasher that is made for
the SABCO fitting.  The experiment I did for the Great Grains issue of
Zymurgy was a great excercise and showed me not only that the extraction
rates are quite comparable among the most popular designs, but also that
ease of setup and use are the deciding factors in choosing a design.

Given what I know now, I think that if you plan to do single- or step-
infusion mashes, the Phil's Phalse bottom in a Gott is the best choice.
If you want the ability to add direct heat (which, despite the fact that I
usually do infusions, I do want), I'd go with a Keg-based or kettle-based
EasyMasher system.
 
Now a question:

Given that the lids on most coolers are simply hollow plastic and a source
of a lot of heat loss, has anyone used that "styrofoam in a can" stuff
to fill a cooler lid?  Any problems?

Al.

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Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 11:21:35 -0500
From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Subject: Re: Where has all the water gone, long time passing etc.

In HBD #1897, Jeffrey M. Collins writes:

> Ideally, shouldn't I be getting 5.5 gallons in the primary? I can see where

> I was a quart short on my sparge water, but I ended up a gallon short 
> overall. I know the water evaporated in the boil is variable depending on 
> time, but I only boiled an hour, on an electric stove. Additionally, 1.06 
> seems like a reasonable S.G. for 9 1/2 lbs. of grain, perhaps a bit low
with 
> the addition of a pound of honey to the boil. Granted, my technique
probably 
> needs refining.


Don't forget the (approximate) 1/10 gallon of water *absorbed* per pound of
grain, and the inevitable few cups left in the brewpot (unless you
pour/strain, but still you would have some wort absorbed in the trub & hops
left behind).  Using your numbers:

Mash Water       :  2.375 gal
Sparge Water     :  4.500 gal
Water Absorbed   : -0.944 gal  ( at 0.1 gal/lb)
Make-Up to Boil  :  0.250 gal  (1 quart)
                    ---------
Wort Before Boil :  6.181 gal

For a vigorous boil, 1 gal/hour evaporation is not unreasonable; if you
boiled 70 min:

Loss to Evap     : -1.167 gal
Make-Up Water    :  0.625 gal  (10 cups)  
Yield to Fermntr : -5.000 gal
                    ---------
Leftover Wort    :  0.639 gal

More than 0.1 gal/lb absorption is possible especially if the grind was fine
(lots of flour).  If the rate is say 0.125 gal/lb, this reduces the "lost
wort" to less than 2 quarts.  A higher evap rate could account for this, as
would any wort left in the brewpot and/or absorbed by hops & trub in the
strainer.

That's right, blame it on the science.  Seems reasonable.

Ken Schwartz



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Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 11:21:48 -0500
From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Subject: HBD Reader Update; Fermentation Temperature Control

An update to the HBD Reader (ver 3.0) program is now available.  It
incorporates bug fixes and user suggestions into a much-improved program.
 You can get your copy of the complete installation package (323K) from my
ftp site at ftp://users.aol.com/kennyeddy/files/hbd30.zip.

>>>If you already have vbrun300.dll on your machine<<<
a *much* smaller (58K) file is available at
ftp://users.aol.com/kennyeddy/files/hbd30nv.zip which contains everything
except vbrun300.dll.

The new file (hbd30.zip) is also available on Pat Babcock's page at
http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock as well as at The Brewery at
http://alpha.rollanet.org.  Pat's page has the non-vbrun version as well.

Thanks to all of you who contributed critiques and suggestions to the new
version.  I think you'll find version 3.0 to be a useful utility.

>>>>> BTW this will be the last posting concerning this program (yay).

******** New Topic:*******

In recent HBD's John Herman (jmherman at gonix.gonix.com) and Eric Palmer
(palmer at San-Jose.ate.slb.com) discussed fermentation temperature control
devices.  A while back (HBD #1843) I posted a verbal description of my
fermentation chiller design, which is basically a chambered insulated box
with a thermostat & fan.  Even in 90F ambient, I can ferment ales at 65F
changing ice every 2 days.  At room temp (70F-75F) I can go four days or
more.  If your ambient temperature is low enough (<60F) you should be able to
lager at near-freezing temperatures with similar performance.  The key aspect
of my design is that the thermostat regulates the temperature with excellent
precision (as long as it's warmer outside the Chiller than the setpoint
inside).

You can download a copy of the Word 2.0 document (complete plans) from
ftp://users.aol.com/kennyeddy/files/chiller.zip or you can view it on-line
(and print it) on Pat Babcock's page at http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock.

Ken Schwartz
KennyEddy at aol.com


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Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 16:44:36 GMT
From: Kelly E Jones <kejones at ptdcs2.intel.com>
Subject: Steam Heat, 'Clovey' taste

In #1899, Rob Wallace asks about using forced air heat for heating a
mash tun.  While it's an interesting idea, I'll give a couple reasons why
I think it won't work:

1) As Rob pointed out, the heat capacity of air is very low.  The real
indication of how much heat is available is the power rating of the
heater, listed as KW or possibly amps (multiply amps by 110 to get
watts).  1.5 KW (generally the max available from such devices) is
about 5000 BTU - not a lot.

2) Air is a very poor conductor of heat.  It is unlikely that blowing
hot air through a copper tube would transfer much heat to the mash,
chances are most of the heat would still be in the air as it exited
the end of the pipe.  Generally, when heat transfer to/from air is
involved, one must use large surface areas, finned designs, etc.

Also, Rob notes a concern about the use of pressurized steam. The
pressures used here are not "high", running only a few psi, which the
pot and tubing are well equipped to handle.  There are much more
dangerous things in the brewery (open gas burners, for one) than
slightly pressurized steam.
******************************************************************
Phil Locker also had an interesting idea, that of using an open copper
coil as a steam generator.  While this could work, the main problem I
see is in control.  You'll need to accurately control both the water
flow and the flame to get the effects you want.  If your flame is too
low, or your water flow too high, you'll get hot water, not steam,
coming out the end.  Not enough water, and your efficiency may
suffer.  However, if you try it, let us know how it turns out!

***************************************************************

Russell Mast says:
>On a similar topic, am I the only one that thinks that the phenolic flavors
>in high-phenol wheat beers tastes almost nothing like cloves do?

Yes!  I've never been able to make this flavor connection.  I never
associated Weizens with cloves until I heard them described that way
in brewing literature.  I assumed that everyone called it 'clovey'
just because, well, everyone _else_ called it clovey.  However, I once
offered one of my very phenolic Weizens to a friend who had never had
such a beer, nor been exposed to any beer/brewing literature.  His
immediate comment upon tasting it was "Mmmm... tastes like cloves!".
So I guess the similarity is there, but to my taste buds, phenolic
beers taste nothing like cloves.

Kelly
Portland, OR

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Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 11:24:06 -0600
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Quality (long, rambling).


Ed Lingel writes :

> "Quality" means different things to different people.  From discussions 
> I've read on the HBD (not necessarily in Russell's post), for many people 
> "quality" means "I like the taste".  Since tastes vary between 
> individuals, arguing about "quality" is pointless.

I've been thinking about this more and more lately, and I am still convinced
there is more to it than "personal taste".

"Quality" does not -mean- different things to different people.  Quality is 
"the way things should be made/done".  Now, different people can argue about
whether or not a given beer/restaurant/dry-cleaner's/etc. is of high or low
"quality".  But, I think we all generally believe that quality is something
besides just "what I like". 

How about Quality is "what we think we should like".  Since most people 
like to believe they do most things well, they will be more likely to say 
that "what they like" has lots of "quality".  They will also likely be 
subject to peer pressure, because that's a major source of judgements about 
what "we think we should" do, we begin to think that the things our friends 
like is "quality".  

For example - I am violently allergic to bell peppers, particularly green ones.
I do not "like the taste", in fact it's highly unpleasant to me.  However, I
do believe that there are very many dishes which can be made to an excellent 
standard of "quality" with green peppers in them.  I will still not like the
taste.  I won't eat it, I won't even taste a little bit, I won't, in fact, 
want to be close enough to smell the stuff.  But, I will be able to claim that
it is of high or low quality, based on my impression of how the dish is 
prepared and my evaluations of people whose tastes I trust.  

I will grant that most people's ideas of the level of "quality" in a product 
will be greatly biased by their personal tastes.  I will admit that.  However,
I think there is some idea that goes above and beyond that which is, in many 
ways, more important than personal taste.  

Arguing about quality is not pointless.  Difficult and rife with personal bias?
Yes.  Pointless?  No.  I think the idea of quality is to have some way of 
communicating amongst people of different tastes, tastes which you don't know
necessarily.  Maybe it's nothing more than a consensus on taste.  I think 
there's a good deal more to it than that, but if that's all it is, it's still 
useful to discuss.

I just checked Webster's New World Dictionary.  It has 4 defintions of quality,
two of which are relevant.  One is "the degree of excellence of a thing", the 
other is "excellence, superiority".  That's not very useful.  I'm not going to
hunt around for excellence only to be directed to "good" and so forth.

Anyway, quality is "what we should like" if not "what everyone should like".  
The idea of quality carries an inherent moral judgement in it, and that makes
many people feel uncomfrotable.  (As well it should, passing moral judgement
should always be done with caution and sensitivity.  At least if you want it
to be a "quality judgement".)  

Sorry this is so long, but I think it's relevant to the Jim Kroch thread, to 
the Mega-brewery "they're stealing our micros" thread, to the perennial "how
can people drink that stuff" mega-brew thread, and to the various threads about
judging beer.  (Notice that one argument about brew categories says we should
just drop them and judge the "excellence" of beers.  If excellence, if quality,
is nothing more than personal taste, why bother with competetions at all?)

I hope you all make and drink beer of the highest quality.  (Hmmm... of 
course, if that does mean nothing but "what I like", that means you all 
would have to send me a sample.  Maybe we should do that, just to test the
theory?  Heh heh...)

 -Russell

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Date: Mon, 04 Dec 95 09:35:26 -0800
From: Kelly Jones Intel Portland Technology Development <kejones at ptdcs2.intel.com>
Subject: CO2 in solution, high/low temp conditioning

In #1899, Jerry Cunningham wrote:

>In Dave Miller's new book, _Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide_, he states 
>something to the effect that, when priming with corn sugar, the corn 
>sugar in the bottle get fermented very quickly - something like 24 - 48 
>hours. All the (newly produced) CO2 is in the head space at this point. 
>It's the disolving of the CO2 _back into the beer_ that takes 2-3 weeks. 

I haven't seen this book, but what you have written makes no sense to me.
The newly produced CO2 is produced _in solution_, not in the headspace.  
By what mechanism would it all come out of solution in 24-48 hours, and 
then spend 2-3 weeks trying to get back in?  I believe this is an error.

Kelly
Portland, OR

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Date: Mon, 04 Dec 95 09:20:15 est
From: Joseph.Fleming at gsa.gov
Subject: Low tech aeration:

        Was making a starter the other day that I wanted to take off 
     quickly, so I broke out the electric hand beaters.  Talk aboout foam!  
     There was no wort left!
     
        Is this an objectionable procedure to aerate a full batch?  Does 
     the violent action of the beater create any undesired circumstances 
     that the "gentler" aeration stone or venturi wand does not?
     
        Lauter tun design note while I'm here.  1st manifold: copper tubing 
     w/ slits.  # mashes before mangling manifold: 1.  2nd manifold: 1/2" 
     PVC tubing.  Handles temps > 180F, breaks down for easy cleaning, hair 
     dryer will allow tubes to be bent.  Design your own: it's like beer 
     Lego.  Hw could copper be better?
     
     
                Joe - joseph.fleming at gsa.gov


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Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 13:24:23 -0500 (EST)
From: waterr at rpi.edu (Bob Waterfall)
Subject: Re. Mashing in Oven - OK?

Jeff Hewit asks:
>Reagrding mashing in an oven - can it be done?

Yes, I do it all the time (~ a dozen batches so far).  Going to the stovetop
for temperature steps or decoctions is quite convenient.

>I am planning to move from extract/specialty grain to partial
>mashes.  For a variety of reasons, I am not planning to go all
>grain, but do want to use a few pounds of regular malt in my
>brewing.  I am thinking about putting crushed grain in a pot 
>with warm water, and putting it in the oven at 155 deg or so.

This should be OK.  Temperature control with a small batch will be very
important.  I have an oven thermometer to make sure I'm in the right
ballpark and gently stir the mash and check its temperature about every 15
minutes.  I don't know what your reasons are for not going to all-grain, but
if the expense of a SS pot is one of them, I've succesfully used an enamel
on steel 33-qt canning pot for my mashing and boiling.  (I admit there were
a few boilovers that a 10 gal. pot would have helped avoid).

>After about an hour, I would strain with hot water, like I
>currently do with specialty grain.  Will this work?

Strain, as in kitchen strainer?  Although I've never used the strainer
method, I believe a lauter tun (or mash tun w/ manifold or Easymasher <tm>)
should improve your efficiencies due to controlling the flow through the
grain bed.

Bob Waterfall,(Off-line mailreading and posting like never before from...)
Troy, NY, USA




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Date: Mon, 4 Dec 95 13:02:47 CST
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: CO datapoint/DMS

Regarding the issue of using cookers indoors, I think the people that
discount the Carbon Monoxide (CO) buildup are being far too optimistic.

I use a rather high-BTU home (not commercial) NG stove.  It has two
12,000 BTU burners and two 9,000 BTU burners.  Most other stoves I've
seen for the home are 10,000/6,000 or 9,000/4,000.  In any event, I
was making several starters a few weeks ago and happed to walk out of
the kitchen down the hall towards the bedroom.  I took a look at the
electonic CO detector mounted a good 10 feet and around a corner from
the stove and witnessed it change from 25 to 64.  The alarm did not
go off because it uses a weighted time/concentration value to set off
the siren (it's a Nighthawk).  I forget the actual times, but it's something
like 2 hours at 50, 1 hour at 100, 15 minutes at 200, etc.

I have a built-in range hood and the exhaust fan was on medium.  I was making
four starters, so I had all four burners on only partway.  I immediately
opened a window and a door, turned up the exhaust fan up to high and
started swinging the door back and forth to fan air into the room.  The
monitor dropped down to 0 in about two minutes.

What worries me are two things:

1) since the detector was 10 feet away and around a corner, I'll bet it
was much higher where I was, standing over the stove, and

2) that was while running the burners at a sum of perhaps 20,000 BTU's,
so what would it be like if it was a 200,000 BTU cooker?

Sorry for extending the life of this thread, but I figured the actual
numbers had some merit in this discussion.

***
Don writes:
     Rob Reed asserts that the cause of DMS in Lagers is caused 
     somehow by the malt.  
     
     I am not sure the roll malt plays, but I have read 
     somewhere (I'm sorry I can't remember the source; think it 
     may be G. Fixx) that a contributing factor to DMS is high 
     starting temperatures.  I can confirm that I have 
     experienced very high DMS in lagers when I pitched the 
     yeast while it was still cooling down.  I thought it would 
     get it off to a quick start if I pitched it at 85-90 and 
     proceeded to cool it down.  The result was a drinkable beer 
     when it was young, but very high DMS after it aged. 

Rob is right... and George Fix's articles back him up (see the 1st or
2nd issue of Brewing Techniques).  However, Don's observation may
related to something else.  The two factors that most strongly
contribute to DMS under *normal* conditions are low SMM in the malt
(related to the time and temperature of kilning -- paler malts have
more SMM) and the speed with which the wort is cooled (faster cooling,
less DMS).  If you got in increase in DMS as the beer aged, I would
blame bacterial infection.  The bacteria used to be called Obesumbacterium
(I believe I got the spelling right), but now I think it's called
Hafnia Protea (don't quote me on this -- going from memory).  In any
event, it is this bacteria that produces lots of DMS.  This sounds like
the source of your particular problem.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at pubs.att.com

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Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 15:20:55 -0500
From: TMartyn at aol.com
Subject: Racking Wort from SABCO Boiler

Greetings, Brewheads,

And thanks to the 14 people who responded to my post last week about racking
cooled wort off the hop'n'trub goo at the bottom of my 15.5 gall. SABCO
boiler.  The responses fell into four main categories.  

1.  Use a perforated, SS screen in the bottom of the boiler to filter the
wort.

2.  Use a large nylon or muslin hop bag to contain the hops.  Respondents
suggested a 10-15% increase in the IBUs to offset the loss of utilization.
 Several said that they still have some problem with leakage from pelletized
hops, several said they have no problem.

3.  Use a Schmidling Easy-masher or homemade clone thereof to filter the
wort.  

4.  Turn the pickup tube so it draws from the side of the boiler rather than
dead-center bottom-middle.  Many respondents also recommended whirlpooling;
 without offsetting the pickup tube, this would only concentrate the trub and
hop detritus at the pickup.  By offsetting the pickup point, the whirlpool
should concentrate the break away from the pickup point.

My plan is to try both the hop bag and the offset pickup tube this weekend
for the Trippel I plan to brew.  

I should also say that my procedure is to rack from the boiler into a 5.25
gall carboy, plus +/- 1 quart into a 1/2 gall. glass jug.  The carboy goes
into the fridge overnight to massively drop the cold break; while my yeast
starter goes into the 1/2 gall glass.  In the morning, I rack 5 +/- gall off
the break into my primary fermenter, plus pitch +/- 1 quart of yeast starter
which has had 12-16 hours to acclimatize to the very wort it will be
fermenting.  Since I went to this procedure, I've had very fast starts and
very complete, clean ferments.  Any comments or feedback?

Thanks to all who responded.


Yours in lace,


Tom Martyn
Brattleboro, VT
TMartyn at aol.com

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Date: 4 Dec 1995 15:38:36 U
From: "Penn, Thomas" <penn#m#_thomas at msgw.vf.mmc.com>
Subject: Sam Adams Homebrew Competition

Has anyone received their confirmation of entry to the Boston Beer Co.
Homebrew competition?  I assume that preliminary winners have been notified,
but I have not received my Hops/T-Shirt to confirm receipt of my entry.

Tom Penn
Bordentown, NJ

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Date: Mon, 04 Dec 95 15:32:29 EST
From: tim_lawson at mail.msj.edu
Subject: Buying a refrigerator or freezer?

        I would like to buy either a refrigerator or chest freezer to use 
     in (a) making lagers and (b) storing bottled homebrews.  Can anyone 
     give me advice on which one to buy (I'm trying to decide whether a 
     refrigerator or chest freezer would be best)?  I would also like to 
     know what type of thermostat I should buy (I've heard that one is 
     needed to maintain a more stable temperature).  Thanks in advance!  
     Please reply privately.
     
     
     Tim Lawson
     Cincinnati, Ohio
     tim_lawson at mail.msj.edu 


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Date: Mon, 4 Dec 95 14:10:57 EST
From: winters at ICD.Teradyne.COM (Ed Winters )
Subject: Mashing:  KEEP YOUR LID SHUT!

Reply to all that helped solve my SOUPY Mashing in my Gott cooler.  
Especially Russell Mast.  

Over the past week I got numerous suggestions for adding heat to the mash
in plastic coolers.  I just though I would share them since they all are
good suggestions:

1) Add heat by steam injection.  A pressure cooker fitted with a hose
works great.

2) Removing excess water, boiling and returning.  (partial decoction)

3) Keep the acid rest thick. (1qt per pound of grain)

4) It's best to mix a slight bit hotter than you need.  Leaving
the lid off and stirring will quickly lower the temp. 
(my figures show ~ 5minutes per degree F for 3 gallons)

5) Keep the lid shut !!!  Go wait in the other room with a homebrew.

It turns out, the problem I was having, most likely, was I kept checking
and stirring in more water for fine temp control.  By doing so, was letting
the heat out the top.  Adding more water, stirring more . . .  finally
SOUP!

After many e-mails with Russ, I found several problems with my mash in 
plastic.
  
  I don't have a round 5 gal. Gott but an 5 gal. Igloo (same thing).  And a
  Igloo cooler has foam insulation (I checked).
 
  I ran some experiments and found my Igloo looses 3 degrees per hour 
  for 3 gallons of water at 150F.  It only takes 3/4 of a quart to bring 
  back the temp to 150F.  (Shouldn't badly thin a mash)

  My Igloo looses nearly 12 degrees per hour with the lid removed (again with
  3 gallons of water).  Also, each time you open it, it looses a large mass 
  of water vapor heat.  A calculation of how much water must be added to a 
  90 minute 3 gallon mash for correcting for the heat out the top (if lid 
  was removed 50% of the time) is about 0.7 gallons!  The resulting volume 
  would be 3.7 gal.  My recipe said to add water to bring to 158 degrees 
  and hold for 20-30min.  That's another 0.7 gallons to bring it from 150 
  to 158F and another 0.26 gal. over the 30 min sit to correct due to heat 
  loss. The result: 4.6 gallons (SOUP!)  And the cooler is full of it!

That's right I'm not DEAD of CO poison from my propane burner.

Ed Winters
Tewksbury, MA

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1902, 12/06/95