FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  yes you can overpitch (Andy Walsh)
  DMS and Pitching temp (Robert Bush)
  Wine? (Douglas Thomas)
  using propane inside (jeff kulick)
  First batch-Goat Scrotum Ale (Porter) (DejNik)
  corn starch peanuts (FxBonz)
  Small scale bottling (Lassi Puupponen)
  Mashing in the oven (Alec Saunders)
  Re: Jim Koch redux (John DeCarlo              )
  Stove Mash (SCHWAB_BRYAN)
  RE:  Split Decoction-, infusion-mashing, etc. (Russ Brodeur)
  Phil's Psyphon Starter, Split decoction mashing, 40C, Complaint (Eric W. Miller)
  re: flow gages ("Colgan, Brian P.")
  Re:  Stopper trapped in Carboy ("steve")
  Belgian grains and stolen y ("Craig Rode")
  HI/Dishwashers (Jeff Smith)
  New brewer wants advice about all grain. (Bob Tortajada x9373)
  Depth of Grain Bed (p.) locker" <locker at bnr.ca>
  St. James Koch (guym)
  soda kegs (DejNik)
  Steam Injection, Partial Decoction Mash (Bob McCowan)
  Drilled Stopper trick (Eric Marzewski)
  Stopper in Carboy-Solved! (Chuck and Grace Burkins)
  Boston Beer Homebrew Contest & Stock Offering (Brad Anesi)
  (fwd) New Liquid Yeast Strains (Alejandro Midence)
  Phil's Psyphon Starter ("Dan Listermann, Cinci OH")
  Sparging Hops/Clove (A. J. deLange)
  decoction Vs infusion mashing (Douhan)
  re:dishwashers, (KICKAHAbRU)
  Sediment from bleach solution (Paul Kensler)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 10:01:10 +1100 (EST)
From: awalsh at crl.com.au (Andy Walsh)
Subject: yes you can overpitch

This is kind of interesting.
I have had some trouble with stuck fermentations when making Belgian style
ales using glucose and Wyeast 3944 (wit yeast), which is often recommended
for ale styles as well as wit (I do not recommend this one after some
expermentation - it seems easily shocked into catabolite repression by glucose).
I *hate* having to throw out a batch, so when making my most recent dubbel
(vol 40 litres, OG=1.068), I really decided to go all out with
"anti-stuck-fermentation" procedures. I pitched onto the primary yeast cake
from a previous fermentation (Yeast Labs Belgian Ale: Brigand) then racked
into a clean 70 litre plastic cylindrical fermenter, to remove trub etc.,
and aerated thoroughly with pure O2 from a cylinder and SS airstone. I then
placed the fermenter in my fridge and set the thermostat at 15C (60F). Well,
12 hours later (next day), the yeast was climbing out of the fermenter
through the airlock (that's a 2 foot climb in a *cylindrical* vessel!) and
was all over the fridge. The temperature underneath the fermenter (where I
had the sensor for the feedback control) was 28C! The fridge was going flat
out to try and maintain 15C but just could not cope with this thermonuclear
explosion I had created. Well, I cleaned up, and next day (within 36 hours
of pitching) all signs of fermentation had ceased. I tasted the beer, and it
was certainly attenuated, but can you shout, BANANA!!! (sorry). 
I think I might just have gone a bit overboard with the yeast here. I think
a thimbleful might be more appropriate.
Has anyone else used this yeast for Belgian ales? I know the wyeast one
makes great banana beer (I refuse to use it for that reason), but what about
YeastLabs? 

*************************************************************
Andy Walsh from Sydney
email: awalsh at world.net (or awalsh at crl.com.au if you prefer)
I still don't know what a Wohlgemuth unit is.
*************************************************************



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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 00:09:15 +0100
From: bush at shbf.se (Robert Bush)
Subject: DMS and Pitching temp

In HBD #1900 Don Van Valkenburg <dhvanvalkenburg at ccgate.hac.com> wrote:

>I am not sure the roll malt plays, but I have read
>somewhere (I'm sorry I can't remember the source; think it
>may be G. Fixx) that a contributing factor to DMS is high
>starting temperatures.  I can confirm that I have
>experienced very high DMS in lagers when I pitched the
>yeast while it was still cooling down.  I thought it would
>get it off to a quick start if I pitched it at 85-90 and
>proceeded to cool it down.  The result was a drinkable beer
>when it was young, but very high DMS after it aged.

According to Norman Soine (Zymurgy Special Issue 1987, Troubleshooting),
DMS can stem from two sources, namely bacterial infection of wort and/or
inefficient elimination or inadvertent entrainment of normally occuring DMS
during beer processing.
It is important to maintain a sanitary system in order to avoid infections
with wort bacteria and to have enough yeast ready to get the quick start
needed.
You could boil the wort longer than usual, as this will diminish DMS.

Another thing: 90 degrees F equals 32.2 degrees C. That sounds to me a bit
like living on the edge! Pitching at that high a temperature is very risky!
Even if most yeast strains might survive, your thermometer might not be
accurate and that differing extra degree might be what kills the yeast.

Robert Bush

=================================
=  Robert Bush, Eskilstuna, SWEDEN  =
=  E-mail:  bush at shbf.se                   =
=================================



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Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 15:36:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Douglas Thomas <thomasd at uchastings.edu>
Subject: Wine? 

I posted a few days ago about any wine recipes or wine groups that may be 
out there.  I have not received any notice of either, but I am still 
hoping.  I acquired an old book called "Fortunes in Formulas" recently.  
In it, besides some very strange beer recipes, and an "authentic French 
absinthe receipt," there was a recipe for Kwass.  It follows as such
1/2 gallon mare's milk
1 teaspoon yeast
2 tablespoons sugar

it then goes on to describes what temperature the milk should be heated 
to, if not directly from the mare, how to stir in the sugar and that 
yeast from the bottom of a champagne bottle is better than that from 
bakers.  It also describes that this can be flavored with all spice, 
cloves, cinnamon, cardamum, or black pepper.  

I just wanted to know if anyone out there has made this, or anything like 
it, and if it is any good.  

Please send to
Doug Thomas
thomasd at uchastings.edu


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Date: Mon, 4 Dec 95 18:03:57 CST
From: kulick at ebs330.eb.uah.edu (jeff kulick)
Subject: using propane inside

>From what I have read, the cajun cookers are about 150,000 BTU
which is larger than many home gas furnaces, which themselves
kill quite a few people each year.  It's not the gas (LP or natural)
that's the problem, but the huge amount of O2 they use up and the 
production of CO2 and CO that is the risk.

Jeff Kulick

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Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 19:31:33 -0500
From: DejNik at aol.com
Subject: First batch-Goat Scrotum Ale (Porter)

Hi All
       I just bottled my first batch of beer and I can't wait to try it!!!!!!
I have couple of questions:
1. How long does it take for corn sugar to carbonate the beer in the bottle?
2. I have bunch of 5gal plastic bottles at home. Can I use this as my carboy.

3. Does anyone have a recipe for the clone of  Dixie Crimson Woodo Red Ale,
It is little to sweet for my taste but other than that I realy liked it a
lot.
4. Any tips on how to make siphoning easier. I'm a college student so my
equipment is VERY LIMITED.
5. We boiled the worth in 2 1/2 gal ainstead of 1 1/2 gal of water. Is this
going to afect the flavor of my beer
      Private mail is OK, I promisse I will post all interesting coments.
Dejan Nikitovic
Marquette University
DejNik at aol.com 
Thanks a Lot !!!!!!!!!

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Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 21:18:37 -0500
From: FxBonz at aol.com
Subject: corn starch peanuts

     Abe Lincoln once said it is better to be silent and be thought a fool
than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.  I have silently wondered about
this for some time: Biodegradable peanuts!  The little corn starch,
environmentally friendly alternatives to the styrofoam.  I have used a
research technique that is employed by many toddlers: I have placed a few in
my mouth and they dissolve and have a neutral flavor.  I am trying to figure
if they are mashable.  could they be used as an adjunct?  what would the
potential problems be?  The price is right?  Is my mind ruined?

Steve
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -------------------------------------------
Brewing beer is far more exciting when it is both a AND a felony!
                                                               The Alabama
Outlaw

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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 06:41:33 +0200
From: puuppone at hamkk.fi (Lassi Puupponen)
Subject: Small scale bottling

I=B4m going to buy a small scale bottling-machine. It does=B4n have
to be very automatic but it must work. Does anyone know where to=20
get a good one?

LP=20
Lassi Puupponen
H=E4meen ammattikorkeakoulu Mustiala
Kuninkaankartanon panimo
lassi.puupponen at mmol.hamk.fi
tel + 358-(9)16-4143249
mobile phone 9400-5071979
fax + 358-(9)16-4143224


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Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 22:05:18 -0800
From: Alec Saunders <alecs at microsoft.com>
Subject: Mashing in the oven


jhewit at freenet.vcu.edu (Jeff Hewit) writes:

"I am thinking about putting crushed grain in a pot 
with warm water, and putting it in the oven at 155 deg or so.
After about an hour, I would strain with hot water, like I
currently do with specialty grain.  Will this work?
I am also considering buying a mini lauter tun, and
putting it in the oven.  Is this idea any good? "

This is how I do all my mashes.  I heat the oven on the lowest setting 
possible -- with mine it holds a steady temp of just about 150 -- I advise 
testing yours with an oven thermometer before trying this.  

I heat the mash through the various steps on the stove top in a large 
stainless steel pot, and put it in the oven for the various rests.  With a 
little care and plenty of stirring you can avoid scorching the mash.

At the end of the mash I transfer the whole lot to my lauter tun - a plastic 
bucket with a Phil's Phalse Bottom inserted, and then I sparge.

Alec.


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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 95 07:41:22 EST
From: John DeCarlo <jdecarlo at homebrew.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Jim Koch redux

Sorry for prolonging this thread, but one major point seems not to have been
expressed.  In addition to the fact that people who regularly lie and 
deceive (in advertising, etc.) don't get the benefit of the doubt, Koch has 
pursued suits that were clearly *unwinnable*.  

When you *know* you will lose, because you have no possible basis for 
winning (acting just on the word "Boston", for example), then you are more 
likely to be perceived as using your money and lawyers to damage 
competitors, since they can not easily afford the amount of money needed to 
defend themselves.

John DeCarlo, MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA--My views are my own
Fidonet:  1:109/131  Internet:  jdecarlo at mitre.org


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Date: Tue, 05 Dec 95 06:49:02 CDT
From: SCHWAB_BRYAN at CCMAIL.ncsc.navy.mil
Subject: Stove Mash

     
     Fellow Homebrewers, Greeetings!
     In HBD 1900, Jeff Hewit  asked about Mashing on/in the stove. Well I'm 
     here to say that it can be done In the stove successfully!  I have 
     been doing this for over two years without any problems.  I can put 
     the mash in the stove (preheated to 150 degrees) and never have any 
     worries.  I can get involved with whatever my two little kiddies have 
     up theirs sleeves and return 1 -2 hours later and my temp ranges have 
     only dropped 5-10 dgrees from where I start. And always a good 
     conversion!!
     I can do in my opinion, simple Step Infusion Mashes by added heated 
     water to the oven whose temp has also been increased by a few degrees 
     and maintain a good stabilization.
     
     I am no "Purist", never tried to be, Never wanted to be because I like 
     what I brew and I like what I drink! ( Time is a commitidy when you 
     raise two kiddies alone!)  My method has been tried by a few other 
     local brewers who have tried and maintained that Gott(tm) Coolers are 
     the only way to go with a Sleeping Blanket wrapped around it to 
     maintain the temp, or even have gone as far to shell out a few bucks 
     and purchase building Styrofoam and configured a heat box to store the 
     cooler in, and are now converted Stove Mashers!
     
     After using my Method for some time, one of my fellow brewers 
     mentioned to me that they saw something in a Brewers Magazine 
     mentioning "my" method as a simple a fool proof way to perform 
     infusion mashing.  So if the "Purist" like it, Why Not Jeff!  Go for 
     it!
     
     If you have any questions about how I set it up you can reach me at
     
     SCHWAB_BRYAN at CCMAIL.NSCS.NAVY.MIL
     904/235-5768


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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 95 08:45:34 -0500
From: r-brodeur at ds.mc.ti.com (Russ Brodeur)
Subject: RE:  Split Decoction-, infusion-mashing, etc.

>
>Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 08:55:09 -0800
>From: "Mark A. Melton" <melton at aurora.nscee.edu>
>Subject: Split decoction mashing
><<snippage>>
>Two decoctions are about the 
>limit as when I remove 1-1.5 gal and bring to a boil, the enzymes are 
>rapidly denatured. Even if I add more amylase enzyme to the last  rest 
>(at or around 158 dF) my conversion rate is poor and the last time I did 
>this I got an E.R. of 17 --not good! 
>Finally I drained out a gallon of mash liquor and 
>heated it 191 dF  and returned it to the mash tun which brought up the 
>temperature to 157-58 dF. I added 1 tsp. of amylase and let this rest for 
>90 minutes. 

Sounds like you are decocting the "thinnest" part of the mash instead of the
"thickest".  Decocting the thin liquor will indeed denature the enzymes.
This is why only the thickest part (use a strainer) should be boiled and
returned to the main mash to raise the temp for the next rest.  YOu will not
have any problems with conversion if you use this technique, nor will you
have to add amylase to the mash.

- -------------------------------------
- ------------------------------------
>Date: 02 Dec 95 12:53:50 EST
>From: "Sharon A. Ritter" <102446.3717 at compuserve.com>
>Subject: infusion mashing 
>water to grist ratio of over 2 quarts per pound. That's alot more water 
>per pound of grist than I used during my pre-Gott days!
>For those that want to check my math, the water infusions looked like 
>this: (ambient temp. 55 degrees) To reach 120 degrees, I added 1.75 gal.
>water  at  143 degrees to the Gott and added grains; To reach 153, I added 
>1.5 gal. boiling water (203 degrees); To reach 170 degrees, I added 2 
>gal. boiling water (203 degrees).   
>
My suggestion would be to use a mash-out decoction rather than adding that
last 2 gal of boiling water.  Simply draw off the "thinnest" ~1/3 of the
mash, boil it (I boil 'til the foaming subsides), then return to the main
mash.  I generally allow the mash to settle, then use a pan to remove the
sweet wort from above the grain bed.  You do not want to boil too much of
the grain material at this point since it may burst starch granules which
cannot be converted due to enzyme denaturing.  This should raise the temp to
your desired range.

- ------------------
- ------------------
Thanks to all who responded to my query regarding DMS production in lagers.
I asked whether allowing the hot wort to rest before cooling would lead to
higher DMS levels in the finished beer (which I like in lagers).

Apparently this technique IS being used by one brewpub or micro.  Another
suggestion was to use Durst malt (German??).  I have been using primarily
dWC pils for my base lager malt.  I don't have any data regarding its SMM
levels, nor the SMM levels of any other malts, for that matter.  If anyone
has this data, I would certainly like to see it!

FWIW, I am now in the process of trying my first "open" fermentation.  I
used Wyeast's Irish ale yeast for this 10 gal stout, and it fermented like
gangbusters, the way it always does.  I just aerated in the boiling keg,
pitched the yeast and covered the top of the keg with a towel to keep the
beasties out.  After 2 1/2 days the krauesen has fallen and it should be
ready for racking.  This is fast, even for the Irish ale strain, IMHO.
Hopefully, I didn't screw anything up, or did I???  

Comments??, Suggestions??

TTFN  --<- at 

Russ Brodeur  (r-brodeur at ds.mc.ti.com)
Franklin, MA


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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 09:10:31 -0500
From: ac051 at osfn.rhilinet.gov (Eric W. Miller)
Subject: Phil's Psyphon Starter, Split decoction mashing, 40C, Complaint



Pat Babcock reviewed Phil's Psyphon Starter.  Sounds like a serious piece of
overengineering.  I prefer to just insert a short length of racking cane,
suck the air out of the enough of the hose to get the wort to start moving on
its own, take out the tube, and let gravity do the rest.  Simple and free.
I would recommend that anyone who's having trouble siphoning spend half an
hour playing with some water on a rainy afternoon.
===
Mark Melton describes an unusual mash program as "split decoction mashing"
and asks for input.  Mark, the decoction's you described were all liquid
decoctions.  Most of the mash's enzymes are in the liquid part of the mash.
So what you're doing with these decoctions is killing most of the enzymes
every time you try to raise the temperature.

Read Noonan's _Brewing Lager Beer_, or one of the decoction articles in
_Zymurgy_ or one of the other homebrewing magazines for a complete
description.  The idea is to raise temperatures by pulling off mostly
grain, boiling it, and then returning it to the rest of the mash, which
still contains most of the liquid and most of the enzymes.

>From the description of the mash program, it sounds like the main mash temp
was jumping around all over the place.  What temperatures were you trying
for?  You might want to try single step infusion mashing until you're more
comfortable with the mashing process.
===
That said, I had my own mashing misadventure this weekend.  Using a 40/60/70
decoction mash procedure, I got hung up on non-brewing stuff during the 40C
step.  It stayed there for almost two hours.  I went forward anyway (of
course, what's the alternative, throw away 9 lb of grain?) and brewed a
1.048 SG wort.  The wort is very thin tasting and I expect that it will
make a beer that comes up short on body.  I'll have to remember this
"technique" if I ever decide to make an American light lager :-)
===
Seems like there have been a lot of posts saying almost exactly the same
thing lately (re: Stopper in Carboy, Koch/Maytag, Propane).  Please think
about whether you're contributing something new before posting.

Thanks,

Eric Miller
Newport, RI

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Date: Mon, 04 Dec 95 19:44:20 EST
From: "Colgan, Brian P." <bcolgan at sungard.com>
Subject: re: flow gages

    > My problem:  I'd like to know how much hot water I'm gravity-flowing
    > onto the grain in my mash tun.
 .
 .
 .
    > My question:  Does anyone have a low-cost, commercial, elegant
    > solution to measuring elapsed flow?  Accuracy to the nearest pint or
    > so would be sufficient.  Thanks!

bpc 04dec:

Treat your sparge water tank like your heating oil tank, and use a dipstick 
with markings on it for the various fill levels. Thanks for shaking loose 
my braincells, I was looking for a good use for the fill tube I have from a 
converted Sankey keg!

Brian Colgan            "Every one has to believe in something."
bcolgan at sungard.com     "I believe I'll have another homebrew."
h:(610) 527-8896 / w: (215) 627-3800         
Radnor, PA.



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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 08:15:24 +0000
From: "steve" <sparke at cadvision.com>
Subject: Re:  Stopper trapped in Carboy



> Chuck Burkins, protein chemist, homebrewer, Wrote:
>Is My Carboy Ruined ? (IMCR?) Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Having been a bartender in previous lifetimes, I found that when the 
occasional wine cork would be loose and accidently was pushed into 
the bottle, leaving a floater for presentation to the diner, it could 
easily be removed by the following method:

After trying string, and tools, I found a packing strap, often used 
for cartons, in this case cardboard boxes of meat delivered to the 
restaurant.  The strap is a half inch wide ribbon of tough plastic 
webbing, very strong, and also flexible and relatively thin.  It's a 
plastic version of the steel banding used on heavier equipment.  

Fold it double into a simple loop ("U" shaped) and push it into the 
bottle. If the cork is floating on the top of the fluid (wine/water) 
in the vessel(winebottle/carboy), the cork can easily be maneuvered 
between the vertical members of the loop, which orients it to a 
vertical position.  An upward tug, or feat of strength, depending, 
will pull the cork out.  Typically no extra lubrication is required as 
the fluid helps in this case.

Stephen Parke
Calgary Alberta
Sparke at cadvision.com


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Date: 5 Dec 1995 11:35:57 -0600
From: "Craig Rode" <craig.rode at sdrc.com>
Subject: Belgian grains and stolen y

                      Subject:                              Time:  11:18 AM
  OFFICE MEMO         Belgian grains and stolen yeast       Date:  12/5/95

Greetings to the fermenatti....

Well, I am 4 batches into the world of all-grain, and what a difference it
makes!  But I have some questions for you smart folks...

1) How does Belgian pale ale differ from American? I find lots of info on
British vs. American, but not Belgian.  Can I use it as a base, or is the
enzyme count too low?  Any info would be appreciated.

2) I "harvested" some yeast from the bottom of a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale
bottle, just to see if it would work.  It smelled great in my starter.  I
pitched it 3 weeks ago.  Standard vigorous primary fermentation (O Joy)! 
After 4 days, (OG=1.052, Gravity at racking 1.022).  Now, three weeks later, I
still get airlock bubbles every 10 seconds.  Fermentation temp (in basement)
is about 62F.  Any ideas? Is this stuff weird or is this normal?  It continues
to smell ok.

3)  I am using an Easymasher in a canning kettle.  Have tried both infusion
mashing and stovetop mashing.  (Do you server your turkey with stovetop
mashing?).  I have tried fine grind and coarse crush.  I keep getting about 24
pts/lb/gallon.  I haven't checked the Ph, because everyone says "don't worry."
 Think that is the problem? Al K. says in Zymurgy I should be able to get 30. 

4)  I am getting uneven carbonation in my bottles.  How do you ensure proper
mixing of the boiled DME with the green beer.  I would have thought that
siphoning on top of it in the bottling bucket would sufficiently mix it. 
Apparently, I am missing the boat here somehow.

 

Thanks to all....

Craig


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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 11:36:38 -0600
From: snsi at win.bright.net (Jeff Smith)
Subject: HI/Dishwashers

First Howdy neighbors,

Last week I subscribed to the HBD and now that I've caught up on my reading
I just wanted to say hi.

HI.

I also  wanted to reply to Mike Moss, Montreal <mmoss at PO-Box.McGill.CA> :

>An another subject.  Does anybody have experience using the dishwasher (as 
>suggested by Dave Miller) to sterilize bottles?  Do you use the full cycle or 
>just the heat cycle?  If full cycle do you use detergent as if you were 
>washing dishes?

Mike,  I've been using my dishwasher for bottles about two years with no
real problems. I run my bottles after use with the regular dishes  and store
them upside down or cover until bottling.  Before bottling I fill the lower
rack only with bottles.  When bottling I run full cycle and heat dry with a
1/2 cup of chlorine added before I start it.  I'm able to wash about two
cases.  I have yet to a problem other than the WIFE occasionally complaining
about the bottles being in the kitchen.

PS Mike does Molsons still make Brador (sic).  I went to high school in
North Bay, Ontario and remember tossing back a couple.

Jeff Smith <snsi at win.bright.net>
Barnes, WI

Jeff Smith
'71 HD Sprint 350SX
snsi at win.bright.net


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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 14:06:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Bob Tortajada x9373 <bobt at bear.com>
Subject: New brewer wants advice about all grain.

I am fairly new to homebrewing. I have been working with grain and 
extract mixes in two gallon boils mixed with 3 gal of cold water for 
cooling. I would like to explore all grain and/or full volume boiling 
and would like some advice. 

1) I see alot of talk about steam injection mashing with complicated 
equipment. Is all grain really that much more complicated than extract 
brewing? Is there an easier way to get started in all grain brewing than 
building a steam injection system?

2) Is there a good source for malted grain? 

3) Can I build a wort cooler out of a copper coil submerged in the wort 
with cold tap water running through it?


I realize these may be stupid questions but I am new to this so please 
beer with me.

Thanks

Bob T.


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Date:  Tue, 5 Dec 1995 11:24:00 -0500 
From: "philip (p.) locker" <locker at bnr.ca>
Subject:  Depth of Grain Bed 

First of all, thanks to the replies on my steam injection questions.
I think I've been convinced to use a pressure cooker as my steam source,
if for no other reason than the built in pressure release (safety).

Now, on to the next question in my brewery design:

I tend to stick to 3 recipes ("lawnmower lager", "hophead red bitter",
oatmeal stout) so I want the capacity to brew them in 10 gallon batches.
But I also want to be able to experiment with 5 gallon batches of other
recipes.  My question is this: if I use a rectangular cooler for mashing
(48 quart?), the grain bed will be about 1/2 the depth for 5 gallon 
batches as it will for 10 gallon batches.  Should this be a concern?
Is there such a thing as too shallow a grain bed?

Thanks,
Phil
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phil Locker            | All standard |Toys: Fender Telecaster, '68 Mustang GT 
Bell-Northern Research | disclaimers  |Fastback (390 4spd), Fireball sailboat.
locker at bnr.ca          |   apply      |        Have I won yet?

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Date: Tue, 05 Dec 95 16:50:55 MDT
From: guym at Exabyte.COM
Subject: St. James Koch

  In Digest 1893 (OK, so I'm behind a bit) Greg Walz writes:
  
  >>What about the lawsuit issues?  Koch is filing lawsuits left & right
  >>against just about anyone he can.  He threatened to sue a brewpub here
  >>in Austin for serving Sam Houston Austin Lager.  Koch claimed to own
  >>the trademark on Sam Houston.  He also keeps harassing Boston Beer
  >>Works, a small Boston brewpub, because he claims he owns the rights to
  >>the name of Boston.
  
  >Most definitely he should sue.  In the highly competitive marketing world
  >your names and trademarks are your LIFE.  Terms like "Boston" and "Sam" 
  >(most of us call Sam Adams simply as "Sam") are the means that the public 
  >uses to identify Boston Beer Company's products - and, like any company 
  >posed with the threat of somebody ripping off their name to promote a 
  >competing product, they have every right in the world to take all legal 
  >measures possible to prevent this from happening.
  
  Well, actually the beer in question is called Samuel Adams, not "Sam Adams" 
  in spite of what "most of us" call it.  Also, if memory serves, there was a 
  city or something named "Boston" a day or two before old Jimmy was born.  I 
  don't think one can trademark the name of a city (though Koch keeps trying) 
  and, in a rare fit of sanity, the courts still agree.
  
  >What would happen if the Boston brewpub would come out with names for 
  >their beers like Boston Ale or Boston Lager?  This would be an obvious
  >trademark infringement.  Same with calling any other beer "Sam", 
  >regardless as to who the "Sam" in question is - especially a closely 
  >alliterative name like "Sam Houston Austin Lager."
  
  But the brewpub has NOT come out with these names.  They simply named the 
  brewpub after the city it is in - unlike Koch whose beer isn't even brewed 
  there!  They could have called it "Pittsburgh Beer Works" but somehow that 
  doesn't have the same ring to it considering its location.  Besides, the 
  brewpubs serve their beer on premise only methinks.  As for the Sam Houston 
  issue, those Texans will see Jimbo rot in hell before they give that one 
  up.  Consider the historical context of each man in relation to the cities 
  using the names, Jim's tantrums notwithstanding.
  
  Sure a company has the right to try and protect its identity but it is 
  ludicrous to expect everyone to relinquish the rights to naming their 
  company after the city it is in (we're lucky he didn't name it USA Brewing 
  Company!).
  
  Just another view.
  
  --
  Guy McConnell -- Huntersville, NC -- guym at exabyte.com


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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:18:12 -0500
From: DejNik at aol.com
Subject: soda kegs

Hi all

Does anyone know were to find soda kegs in Chicago or Milwaukee area?
Also how can you find out about upcoming competitions?

Dejan Nikitovic
Marquette University
DejNik at aol.com

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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:45:31 -0500
From: Bob McCowan <bob.mccowan at cfrp.varian.com>
Subject: Steam Injection, Partial Decoction Mash

Steam injection:

Can one easily steam heat without injecting the steam into the mash/boil?.
Most of the heat comes from the latent heat of vaporization.  Suppose you
use a sufficient length of copper to let the condensed water drain outside
the mashtun or kettle, or does that give you too much water hammer, and blow
your relief valve?

Partial Decoction:

In a decoction mash you do not boil the grains after mash out.  All grain
boiling occurs before the final conversion rest.  To liquid part of the mash
is boiled after conversion, and then reincorporated into the mash to reach
the mashout temp.  Noonan has a good description of what is boiled when.
Bob McCowan
bob.mccowan at cfrp.varian.com


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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:47:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Marzewski <emarzews at nova.umuc.edu>
Subject: Drilled Stopper trick

I 've pulled a drilled rubber stopper out with a bent coat hanger, just
floated the stopper with water and hooked it with the coat hanger, then 
yanked it thru the neck. Just some FYI,  but for a solid one???? maybe
upside-down with no water and catching it near the center witha rigid 
coat hanger would yank it out?  Have fun.... ;-P

Cheers,

Eric Marzewski

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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:39:03 +0001 (EST)
From: Chuck and Grace Burkins <burkins at world.std.com>
Subject: Stopper in Carboy-Solved!

Hi all:

    In HBD 1896, I related my problem with an undrilled gum stopper that I 
pushed into my carboy. The response was truly overwelming. Thanks to Cory 
Wright, C.D. Pritchard, Brad Brim, Russell Mast, Russ LaPenna, John 
DeCarlo, Karl Patzer, Bob Surratt, Greg Boes, Keith Huizinga, Irwin 
Goverman, Chris Weight, Scott Hadley, Steve Schultz, Ed Iaciofano, Alan 
Freigang, CoAir at aol.com, Glenn Anderson, Greg Walz, Frank Dechaine, Mike 
White, and anybody whose mail I forgot to save. All of the suggestions 
were good. The one that I used was a variation on a theme suggested by 
many folks, used mainly because I had the raw material at hand. The other 
methods have been represented by Digest postings in the last few days.
    To remove the stopper from the carboy I placed a hankerchief inside 
the carboy with one corner protruding from the top. I flipped the carboy 
upside down and got the stopper facing skinny side out in the neck. (The 
hanky was now between the stopper and the wall of the carboy). I pulled 
the hanky out and the stopper was forced to follow. The stopper came out 
on the first try. Total expended time: 2 minutes.  I spent some stupid 
worry on a problem that was really easy to fix. Thanks again to all that 
helped.
   
Chuck Burkins
protein chemist, homebrewer
burkins at world.std.com


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Date: Tue, 05 Dec 1995 12:45:45 -0800
From: BANESI at novell.com (Brad Anesi)
Subject: Boston Beer Homebrew Contest & Stock Offering

Hi all-

Has anyone gotten their entry confirmation of hops and t-shirt yet?  I sent
my entry in for arrival on the first day of the contest, but have not heard
anything yet.

Also, I sent my check in for the consumer offering of 33 shares, but
have received nothing back yet (shares or returned check).  Anyone
else get anything on this yet.

 ...and I haven't in said anything bad about Jim ...or Fritz, for that matter!

Thanks,

Brad 


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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 19:37:51 -0600
From: Alejandro Midence <alex at conline.com>
Subject: (fwd) New Liquid Yeast Strains

Hi, folks,

I found this article in rcb today and decided y'all might like to see 
it.  I remember someone in a previous issue was requesting information 
about Young's yeast strain and how wyeast would have one available.  
Well, take a look at this:
Forwarded message follows:


From: scregger at u.washington.edu (S. Cregger)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
Subject: New Liquid Yeast Strains
Date: 29 Nov 1995 05:08:48 GMT
Lines: 23


Yeast Lovers. This already be common knowledge in the group (I've been a 
bit out of touch for a while), but Wyeast just introduced about 10 new 
liquid yeast strains a couple of weeks ago. Not much info yet, but I do 
have their info. sheet. The new ones include:

#1318 London Ale Yeast III - From a traditional London brewery (any guesses?)
#1272 American ale Yeast II - Fruitier and more flocculant than 1056
#1388 Belgian Strong Ale Yeast - Neutral w/mod. to high alcohol tolerance
#1762 Belgian Abbey Yeast II - High gravity yeast w/solventy flavor
      profile (less banana than their first cut, maybe?)
#3787 Trappist High Gravity - Phenolic character. alc tolerant to 12%.

and 2 more ale yeasts, 2 lager yeasts, 2 more wheat beer yeasts (a 
Belgian and a Weisse), and a Swedish Porter Yeast.

I'm giving the 1318 a try in my next pale ale. (The package is puffy 
and my starter should be going tonight). Anyone else try any of these yet?

Also, I guess these should be added to the yeast FAQ if they haven't been 
already. Who does the updates (if anyone)? 

S. Cregger (scregger at u.washington.edu)

- --
Alex:  alex at conline.com
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
If I were to tell you that everything I say is a lie, and then if I were 
to turn around and say that what I just told you is the truth, would you 
believe me?
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

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Date: 05 Dec 95 20:43:17 EST
From: "Dan Listermann, Cinci OH" <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Phil's Psyphon Starter

Pat Babcock reviewed a Phil's Psyphon Starter  in HBD1901.  Unfortunatly his is
one of the ones that got away before we discovered the joys of raw material
variation for this product and he found some problems.

As with any of our products, if there is anything worng with it, all we ask is
that you return it to us and we will repair it or, failing that, we will replace
it.  

We have fixed the problem of the inner parts moving around and will soon be
supplying plastic clamps that can be used for racking canes that are undersized.

Sorry if you were inconvenienced.  Just drop it into the mail to:

Listermann Mfg. Co., Inc.
P.O. Box 12251
Cincinnati, OH 45212-0251

Dan Listermann


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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 22:52:00 -0500
From: ajdel at interramp.com (A. J. deLange)
Subject: Sparging Hops/Clove

In #1900 Ed Lingel asks if "sparging" is the correct term for rinsing hops
and whether trub material carried into the fermenter by this practice:

As far as I know "sparge" is an acceptable term since it merely means "to
sprinkle". I have seen adverts for laboratory fermenters which have
"upwards oxygen spargers" so I think that a general interpretation is
allowable ("...tuba mirum spargens sonum.."). More importantly, what about
the trub? My opinion here is based upon my personal brewing habits and
experience. I prefer not to sparge the hops because to do so certainly
disturbs the surface layer of fines which have neatly settled onto them (my
boiler is a stockpot with false bottom onto which the hops drop forming a
trub filter bed). On the other hand, if I have laboured long (as I did last
time - sparge from hell) I'll be damned if I'll leave any wort on those
hops to do nothing but nourish the compost heap and thus I do sparge in
some cases. I am a lupoholic and use noble (i.e. low alpha) leaf or
hopplets so that the quantity is pretty close to a pound in most of my
brews i.e. the hop bed is a couple of inches thick. I think the thickness
of the bed prevents anything which gets kicked up at its top from making
its way through.

Because I am a lager nut I decoction mash (the only ales I do are wheat
beers which also require decoction mashing) so that there is not much trub
present anyway and I feel quite safe. Were I to have "egg drop soup" boils
as some do I might be a bit more cautious in this regard.

I oxygenate my worts from the bottom and after oxygenation is complete I
turn up the flow to the point where the wort boils with large O2 bubbles
thus emulating air flotation. Sometimes a small amount of trub appears on
the top of the foam (which I skim) but not usually. I have also "blown
down" trub when the cell count gets high enough but usually don't bother
with this as the quantities I have obtained by doing this have been so
small. In summary disturbing the hops by sparging does not seem to be a
problem given the way I brew. I would expect the same result if I were
separating by whirlpooling as long as the wort were whirled a second time
after the addition of the sparge water.



There has been some discussion of the clove character in wheat beers. This
is obviously a very subjective area but it makes me recall the first time I
ever tasted a wheat beer. I had been put on the plane to Germany (first
trip) and all I knew about brewing when I landed was from TCJHB which had
been my reading on the flight. My buddy and I wandered into a Gaststaette
in Neue Isenburg and were sampling everything they had. Eventually we got
to Kailor's Dunkelweiss which I thought an interesting contradiction in
terms (and I remember all this because it was a beer drinking renaissance).
Upon tasting the stuff we were both absolutely convinced that it actually
had cloves in it which we couldn't understand because the label on the
bottle went on for a couple of paragraphs about Reinheitsgebot and I did
know that cloves were not one of the 3 allowable ingredients (nor is wheat
for that matter but lets not start that one up here - they just beat it to
death again over on rcb). The point is that I didn't know what 4-vinyl
guaiacol is nor that it is supposed to taste like cloves and yet my first
thought on tasting that beer was that it had cloves in it (and my second
was that I'd like another). Now I must say that I have never had such a
strong impression of cloves in any wheat beer I have drunk since. Sometimes
the clove is very faint and sometimes it is masked by other phenolics. On
the other hand, perhaps the memory of the intial experience is magnified.
My first impression of a Komodo dragon was that it is a BIG lizzard. If I
saw one again it might not seem so large.

A.J. deLange   Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore!
ajdel at interramp.com



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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 18:55:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Douhan <gdouhan at wsunix.wsu.edu>
Subject: decoction Vs infusion mashing

	I have only been getting the HBD for about two weeks now and am 
pretty satisfied. I enjoy the brewing aspects of the digests but there 
seems to be a lot of soap opera type facets which I don't. 
	I have noticed that a lot of you use decoction mashing, even 
those who utilize cooler type systems. I don't decoction mash even though 
I have a sytem that would alow me too. I just don't see a reason why to 
bother. The barely malts that are available today are highly modified. 
Sellective breeding has given rise to high quality malts. My questions are:
How many breweries out there use decoction mashing(those which do not use 
adjuncts)? Have any of you ran side by side comparisons and noticed 
differences? 
	I hope that this has not been a recent thread. I have not tried 
to access past postings. Private Email would be great! Thanks
Greg Douhan
gdouhan at wsunix.wsu.edu 

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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 23:20:42 -0500
From: KICKAHAbRU at aol.com
Subject: re:dishwashers, 

Hello fellow brewer's.  I'm fairly new to this list but thought I'd drop a
line (or dozen).

First of all Mike Moss (mmoss at PO-Box.McGill.CA) writes:
< Does anybody have experience using the dishwasher (as suggested by Dave
<Miller) to sterilize bottles?  Do you use the full cycle or just the heat
cycle?  If <full cycle do you use detergent as if you were washing dishes?

I have used my dishwasher in just that manner and it has worked for me.  I
thoroughly wash the bottles with a bottle brush and liquid dishwasher soap,
rinse  prior to placing them in the dishwasher and run it through the cycle
without adding detergent as a second rinsing.

On  another note I've read some of the discussion on Wyeast # 1056, on a
related if not insignificant note I 've noticed that #1087 gets a bit
sluggish below 65F(usually at night). Wrapping my carboy in a towel as added
insulation  has livened the little beasties up.  My question is, will temp
fluctuations cause any "off" flavors due to prolonged fermentation (3+
weeks)? 

TIA for any answers.  "To your own brew, be true."

Jeff Burch,   KICKAHAbRU at aol.com 

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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 22:57:10 -0600 (CST)
From: Paul Kensler <kensler at metronet.com>
Subject: Sediment from bleach solution

	I recently soaked ten new bottles in a solution of bleach water
overnight (2 oz. bleach in 5 gal water).  The bottles were new, but very
dusty and I didn't feel like scrubbing or worrying about nasties hiding in
the dust.  I soaked them in my food-grade 7 gallon bucket that I use for
bottling (I keep it very clean at all times).  24 hours later, there was a
noticeable precipitation on all of the bottle surfaces - a thin chalky
layer inside and out.  While this layer could be rubbed off with my hand,
it was stuck to the bottle - it didn't rinse off. 

	Any ideas as to what this film was, where it came from and how to
avoid it in the future? 

				PK


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1903, 12/07/95