FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Re: Starch packing peanut adjuncts and rat poison (Kris Thomas Messenger)
  RE: Using Dishwasher to Sanitize bottles (David Clark)
  Pale ales:  good og and fg (Alejandro Midence)
  SA: Trademarks, Brewing as a Business (WALZENBREW)
  Counterflow Chiller Sanitation/ Question on Lager Handling (Tom Wenck)
  Papazian's dream pillow and mugwort ("Jim Fitzgerald")
  HSA during sparging: Prelim. results ("Dave Draper")
  Wine filters (Denis Barsalo)
  questions ( STEVEN J BENN)
  24 pts (Jack Schmidling)
  Wort Abuse (jim_robinson)
  Phil's Sparge Arm (blacksab)
  Gott set mash summary/dancing bubbles ("Sharon A. Ritter")
  Re: Priming with Honey (Paul W Placeway)
  IPA & Oak Chips (EricHale)
  Beer Bottles Supply Issue/2 BBL micro (Nir Navot)
  Pat Babcock and sp.gr. ("Mark A. Melton")
  Steam generator ("Philip Gravel")
  RE: Kwass (Bill Ridgely FTS 827-1391)
  Liquid yeast and fermenting outside (Michael Kerns)
  Stuck Stout ("David Wright")
  First all-grain batch (rbarnes)
  Carbonation ("James Giacalone")
  Once and future felony..... ("Harralson, Kirk")
  Fuller's ESB Clone (John Wilkinson)



******************************************************************
* POLICY NOTE: Due to the incredible volume of bouncing mail,
* I am going to have to start removing addresses from the list
* that cause ongoing problems. In particular, if your mailbox
* is full or your account over quota, and this results in bounced
* mail, your address will be removed from the list after a few days.
* 
* If you use a 'vacation' program, please be sure that it only
* sends a automated reply to homebrew-request *once*. If I get
* more than one, then I'll delete your address from the list.
******************************************************************
 
#################################################################
#
# YET ANOTHER NEW FEDERAL REGULATION: if you are UNSUBSCRIBING from the
# digest, please make sure you send your request to the same service
# provider that you sent your subscription request!!! I am now receiving
# many unsubscribe requests that do not match any address on my mailing
# list, and effective immediately I will be silently deleting such
# requests.
#
#################################################################
NOTE NEW HOMEBREW ADDRESS hpfcmgw!

Send articles for __publication_only__ to homebrew at hpfcmgw.fc.hp.com
  (Articles are published in the order they are received.)
Send UNSUBSCRIBE and all other requests, ie, address change, etc.,
  to homebrew-request@ hpfcmgw.fc.hp.com, BUT PLEASE NOTE that if
  you subscribed via the BITNET listserver (BEER-L at UA1VM.UA.EDU),
  then you MUST unsubscribe the same way! 
If your account is being deleted, please be courteous and unsubscribe first.
Please don't send me requests for back issues - you will be silently ignored.
For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to lutzen at alpha.rollanet.org
ARCHIVES:
  An archive of previous issues of this digest, as well as other beer
  related information can be accessed via anonymous ftp at
  ftp.stanford.edu.  Use ftp to log in as anonymous and give your full
  e-mail address as the password, look under the directory
  /pub/clubs/homebrew/beer directory.  AFS users can find it under
  /afs/ir.stanford.edu/ftp/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer.  If you do not have
  ftp capability you may access the files via e-mail using the ftpmail
  service at gatekeeper.dec.com.  For information about this service,
  send an e-mail message to ftpmail at gatekeeper.dec.com with the word
  "help" (without the quotes) in the body of the message.


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 10:01:55 -0800
From: Kris Thomas Messenger <kmesseng at slonet.org>
Subject: Re: Starch packing peanut adjuncts and rat poison

Recently, Delano wrote:

>From: Delano Dugarm 36478 <ADUGARM at worldbank.org>
>Subject: Adjunct FAQ
>	I had never thought of using corn starch peanuts.  One 
>problem would be that they have a very large volume, complicating 
>mash-in.
>
>Delano 'Adjunct Boy' DuGarm
>adugarm at worldbank.org
>Arlington, VA

I believe someone else had suggested using corn starch packing peanuts as an
adjunct. These are usually stored in warehouses, warehouses frequented by
mice and rats.  There is a better than 50% chance that the manufacturers of
this item dose them with a small amount of rat poison to deal with this
problem.  I recall reading about a corn starch based wall paper paste that
was so treated. This is off the top of my head and I don't want to raise a
scare about a non issue but it might bear checking out. Something to think
about....


Meanwhile, Rolland wrote:

>Douglas Thomas gave us the ingredients for a Kwass recipe.  It
>sounds like interesting stuff, but totally unlike the beer-like
>beverage that has been served to me by Russian friends.  Their
>kwass was made from dark rye bread, not mare's milk.  It was so
>much like beer that I think it must properly be considered a
>type of beer.  Does anyone know anything this type of kwass?
>
>Rolland Everitt
>af509 at osfn.rhilinet.gov

I recently saw somewhere on the net reference to an old Russian recipe for
"Kvass" - whether the 'v' is used in place of the 'w' makes any difference,
I don't know. Anyway, it listed as ingredients just rye bread, sugar, yeast
and water. And it was reported to taste like 'beer'. 

Nostalgia - it ain't what it used to be!
Cheers.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Messenger, Los Osos, California, USA *** kmesseng at slonet.org
- ----------------------------------------------------------------


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 9 Dec 95 12:29:15 CST
From: david.clark at analog.com (David Clark)
Subject: RE: Using Dishwasher to Sanitize bottles

In HBD #1905 (December 9, 1995) Jeff Hewit <jhewit at freenet.vcu.edu> wrote:

>One key point is to start with clean bottles.
>I rinse out each bottle right after I pour a beer.  It's much
>easier to rinse out yeast and sediment when it's wet than
>waiting for it to dry and harden.

 Yes that is the easiest way to avoid unwanted growth in your bottles. It's 
a real pain trying to get others to do the same. If you make them scrub the
growth out of the bottles, they kinda get the idea of the concept.

>I then run the empty bottles
>through with the rest of the dishes before storing them.  When
>I'm getting ready to bottle, I load all the bottles in the
>dishwasher.  I run it through a full wash/rinse cycle, set with
>heat option, using B-Brite in the wash and bleach in the
>rinse.  When it gets to the air dry stage, I interupt, and
>start over with a full wash/rinse/heat dry cycle, with no
>detergent or bleach to give the bottles a full rinse.

 All I do is run the dishwasher once empty to get out all the soap residue
from any previous dish washings. Then I put 5 six packs of 12 oz. bottles
on the top rack and two cases of 22 oz. bottles on the bottom rack. Add a 
1/2 cup to a 1 cup of bleach and run it on the "pot scrubber-heat dry"
setting and they are ready to go in a couple of hours. Usually I can get
two batches bottled at once with all these. 
 Make sure you don't use that Jet Dry stuff in the rinse. I've heard that
leaves a residue that can kill the head on your brews.

>After the dry cycle part is over, it takes forever for the bottles to
>cool.  I recommend starting the process in the evening, letting
>the bottles cool over night, and bottling in the morning.  I
>may be over doing it a bit, but there is almost no effort to
>this procedure.  This is one part of the brewing process where I am
>happy to let the machines do the work.  

 I've never had a problem yet, *knock knock* and it makes it a helluvalot
easier to do the least favorite part of making beer.

Dave Clark   david.clark at analog.com

Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 13:25:17 -0600
From: Alejandro Midence <alex at conline.com>
Subject: Pale ales:  good og and fg

Hi, folks,

What exactly is a good starting gravity for a pale ale.  I havew a  
recipe that says it's 1.040-1.042 but this seems so light to me.  I guess 
I'm just so used to stouts and bocks with og between the high fifties to 
seventies.  The finishing gravity for this rec is at 1.008.  Gosh, that's 
light!!  Am I just imagining it's too light or am I correct?  If it is 
light, then how much maltodextrine would be appropriate to boost the body 
up by maybe two or three grav points. I like 1.012-18 in my beers.  
Thanks for any info.
btw, thankfuly that gusher I wrote about was the only one.  The rest were 
all right and, alas, are all gone!

here's the pale ale recipe I'm refering to:
6 lbs light dme (munton)
0.5 lb crystal 40l
1.5 oz. kent goldings (8 hbus) boiling
0.75 oz. Tetnanger for flavor (2.5 hbus)
0.5 oz. kent goldings for aroma (2.65 hbus)
0.5 oz kent goldings dryhop
2 tablespoons gypsum
1/4 t-spoons irish moss 45 mins into boil
3/4 c corn sugar
London Ale yeast
og: 1.040-2
fg: 1.008-1.010

If it's fine, let me know.  



<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
If I were to tell you that everything I say is a lie, and then if I were 
to turn around and say that what I just told you is the truth, would you 
believe me?
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 15:03:12 -0500
From: WALZENBREW at aol.com
Subject: SA: Trademarks, Brewing as a Business

C. D. Pritchard writes in HD1901:

>Ads not withstanding, BBC's
>reason for brewing is $$$.  Decent brew just happens to be in the
>business plan (and rightly so). BBC ain't into brewing for the love 
>of the art or enjoyment as are most home and more than a few
>microbrewers.  

Homebrewers can afford to brew "for the love of the art or enjoyment" -
this is what the hobby is all about.  But the minute you take the step
of selling your beer, you're a business - and if you don't run it as a
business first you'll most likely fail.  Many, many brewpubs & micros have
failed in the past 10-12 years for just this reason - if your primary
purpose isn't to make $$$ and a PROFIT selling good beer, for the sake
of your investors and partners (and yourself) you should stay a
homebrewer.

>>Most definitely he should sue...  Terms like "Boston" and "Sam" (most
>>of us call Sam Adams simply as "Sam") are the means that the public
>>uses to identify Boston Beer Company's products... they have every
>>right in the world to take all legal measures possible to...
>
>Come on Greg, fess up, you're a lawyer aren't ya?  Perhaps one of the
>many who get rich from suits like these? Just kiddin; however,
>kidding aside, the repeated suits against the Boston brewpubs and
>threaten (?) suit against the Texas one are, at best, frivilious.
>IMHO, only someone that's partaken of way too much brew or is
>otherwise brain dramaged would confuse a Sam Houston Austin whatever
>with a Samuel Adams whatever.

SAM ADAMS   BOSTON LAGER
SAM HOUSTON AUSTIN LAGER

Pretty similar, eh?  Not everybody in the world is as knowledgeable
about beer as the readers of this forum - to the average Joe Sixpack
these names are pretty much the same.  If you don't believe that the
general public's perceptions are this bad, there are numerous studies
out there that prove this.  The public's retention of product names is
rudimentary at best.  Why do you think advertisers spend so many
$billions to simply place their name in front of the public, again and
again and again (ad nauseam)?  So it will sink in, pure and simple.  So
if you come up with a name for a product that's even remotely similar to
a trademarked name used by a competitor, you most likely will have to
defend your choice in court.

The Austin brewpub that chose the Sam Houston name apparently did so
with BBC's name in mind.  While we may think this name is funny (I do),
I wouldn't be laughing if somebody did this to the name of a micro that
I was making and selling.

As I said in a previous post, even the "ethically correct" breweries
will protect themselves from someone infringing on their name.  For
example, Anchor has trademarked not only the term "steam" but also the
name "Liberty", and as was pointed out by Paul Wiatroski in HD1900:

>I don't remember reading about any litigation for the Steam name,
>but I do remember reading about Fritz threatening to suit someone in
>New Jersey for using the name Liberty Brewing for a brewpub. Apparently
>the name is too close to Liberty Ale.

Likewise, I was informed that Grant's in Yakima used a similar threat to
prevent Rainier Brewing from using the name "Yakima".  How is this any
different than trying to protect the name "Boston"?

BTW, professionally I'm a self-employed consulting engineer, not a
lawyer.  But when you deal regularly with the bottom line, you learn
fast what you have to do (and not do) to keep from getting into legal
hassles that force you to deal with lawyers.

Cheers,
Greg Walz

Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 15:47:55 -0500
From: Tom Wenck <twenck at clark.net>
Subject: Counterflow Chiller Sanitation/ Question on Lager Handling

We all know how amazingly often the immersion - counterflow chiller dabate
is replayed.  Not looking to raise if from the dead but I have never seen
this mentioned and wanted to share.  I sanitize my counterflow chiller the
same way others do their immersion chiller.  With boiling wort.  I boil in a
converted keg.  About 15 minutes before end of boil I hook up the chiller to
the kettle valve.  I then allow boiling wort to flow through the chiller and
into an old pot without any cooling water flow.  When the pot is 3/4 full, I
shut the valve, return the wort to the kettle, then replace the pot and
continue the flow.  My chiller is sanitized with boiling wort and there are
no extra steps since I had to hook it up for the cool down anyway.

BTW, for cleaning, I save the very hot outlet water from the cooler and then
gravity flow it through the chiller after the wort is in the fermenter.
This removes the residual sugars well enough.

********

A question about handling lagers.  I have never quite understood how
temperatures are maintained throughout the process.  Could someone walk
through this from yeast starter to finished product?

Are starters done at ferment temperature or room temp?  If at room temp, do
you pitch with wort at room temp and then gradually cool?  I think it's
probably best to pitch at fermenting temp so should the starter be at this
temp?  I once acutally stored a Wyeast pack in the fermenting fridge (50F)
for a few days and then popped it and left it in the fridge.  It never
inflated till I removed it to room temp.


Tom W


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 14:13:49 -0700
From: "Jim Fitzgerald" <jimfitz at netcom.netcom.com>
Subject: Papazian's dream pillow and mugwort

I was reading through Charlie Papazian's newest book _The Home Brower's 
Companion_ and came across a recipe for making a "dream pillow" that included 
some ingredients that were a little puzzling.

This recipe was taken from a summer 1980 volume of Zymurgy magazine and listed 
the ingredients as;

2 oz. Hops
2 oz. Dried Chamomile flowers
2 oz. dried dried rosebuds, crused
1 oz. dried mugwort
1 oz. dried lemongrass
1/2 oz. Benzoin (a natural preservative)

My question here is has anyone heard of Dried mugwort or know what this is? 
Direct email to my account with this answer, if anyone has it would be great.

Cheers!!!

Jim

Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 10:30:56 +10
From: "Dave Draper" <david.draper at mq.edu.au>
Subject: HSA during sparging: Prelim. results

Dear Friends, a couple of months ago I posted asking about whether 
hot-side aeration (HSA) could ensue from rough handling during 
lautering and sparging.  I had a few good responses, and have changed 
my procedures somewhat to incorporate the suggestions I got, and am 
here to report back on what I've learned so far.

The symptoms: most of my beers developed distinct flavor notes of 
oxidative deterioration after a few months.  The good news was that 
few of my batches lasted that long!  But I definitely had a stability 
problem, although not a horrible one.  My thinking was that, since 
the only time anything warm got splashed was between the end of the 
mash period and the beginning of the boil, the problem must be in 
there somewhere.

My previous procedure:  After stovetop + oven mashing (described
briefly a few days ago), I would simply dump the goods into my
plastic lauter tun (retired fermenter; has slotted-copper manifold).
 Ker-splash!  Then I would recirculate by collecting the initial
runnings via a short length of tubing (no splashing there at all),
and return to the grain bed by pouring from a height of a 30-40 cm
(couple of feet) onto an inverted coffee-cup saucer.  A bit of
splashing there but not too much.  Recirc in my setup typically
requires only 4 or 5 litres (close enough for goverment work to 4 or
5 qts), after which runnings go into the boiler again through the 
short length of hose (no splashing).  Sparge water added the same 
way, poured from the same height, but of course by the time one is 
adding water it doesn't matter if the water splashes (does it?).

Suggestions I got:  The unanimous one was don't dump the goods but 
instead transfer gently with some sort of scooping apparatus; better 
still, change setups to mash in the same vessel as I sparge in.  
Minimize the amount of pouring of recirculated wort as well.  Norm 
Pyle reckoned that water vapor dominates the makeup of the air 
immediately above the grain bed, since it is sitting there steaming, 
so that the splashing of the returned wort for recirculation should 
not be a very big source of oxidation.

Actions I took: Since getting the suggestions I have done 8 batches.  
Three of these are still in fermenters, so we have 5 batches to work 
with, and of those, three are > 2 months old, and two are about 6 
weeks in the bottle.  Recall that I was noticing the oxidation notes 
by the 2-month mark.  The first batch I did was mashed in my plastic 
lauter tun, heaped with blankets for insulation, but it failed 
dismally.  Temperatures stayed near 60 C (140 F) despite repeated 
infusions of boiling water, and the resulting beer (an alt) was thin 
(FG 1008) and astringent--but it did not show any of the oxidation 
problems as far as I could tell.  The rest were all done like this: 
after the mash period, I very gently transferred the goods to the 
lauter tun with a pitcher.  After the first couple scoops, the depth 
in the lauter tun was such that I could submerge the lip of the 
pitcher and literally lay the scoop o'mash down with virtually no 
motion at all (thanks to Ken Willing for that one).  Recirc went 
pretty much as before, i.e. I am counting on the steaminess of the 
air above the grain bed.  Everything else is the same--runnings go 
through the hose with no splashing.

Results: I am happy to report that this seems to have done the trick. 
The beers I have made thusly so far are the alt mentioned above, a 
Kolsch-like golden ale, another alt, a steam beer, and an oatmeal 
stout (in the bottles); and a US pale ale, a German pils, and a 
Scottish ale (still fermenting).  Thus I have covered a good range of 
color, gravity, strength, and hop levels, and as far as I can tell my 
oxidation notes have been greatly diminished.  I am pleased.

Bottom line: do whatever you can to not splash the mash, and if you 
can keep from splashing the recirculating wort, so much the better.  
I'll report again in another few months on these beers' longer-term 
stability.

Sorry for the long windedness (seems chronic with me lately).
Cheers, Dave in Sydney
"Cross your fingers and wait it out." ---A. J. deLange
- ---
***************************************************************************
David S. Draper, Earth Sciences, Macquarie University, Sydney NSW Australia
Email: david.draper at mq.edu.au  Home page: http://www.ocs.mq.edu.au/~ddraper
                ...I'm not from here, I just live here...

Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 19:12:31 -0500
From: denisb at CAM.ORG (Denis Barsalo)
Subject: Wine filters

In HBD # 1905 Mitch Hogg asked about filtering beer so he can have sediment
free bottles.

        If you bottle condition your beer, you'll have sediment. You can't
have it both ways.
If the winemaking store you work at offers a champagne service, you could
filter your beer, then force carbonate it, then bottle it. Now, you'll have
carbonated, bottled, sediment free beer. I've had good results using a wine
filter, then carbonating the beer in a keg. The owner of the
homebrew/winemaking store I shop at as offered me the bottling service a
few times. I guess it's just a matter of time....

Denis Barsalo



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 09 Dec 1995 19:17:22 EST
From: BLXF53A at prodigy.com ( STEVEN J BENN)
Subject: questions 

I've just started reading homebrew and am quite impressed with the 
level of knowledge that is out there. Please can someone tell me how 
to find: Wyeast products ( at  or phone #) ?. 
Also currently I use Williams catalog to order supplies but it is 
limited - I cant find the ingredients you all are using to brew with. 
Can someone tell me where a good source is (mail order)??
Third - I brewed a batch of ale from 2 row and after a month it is so 
sickening sweet that it is not drinkable (seemed to ferment ok but 
with high ending gravity of 5 balling). Something went wrong in  the 
mash(step mash with highest temp of 149). Is there anyway to use this 
stuff??  Perhaps add it to the mash of another batch???
Thanks, Steve Benn 


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 9 Dec 95 19:11 CST
From: arf at mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: 24 pts

                        
Craig Rode mentions that he only gets 24 pts extraction on his system and Al
says he should get 30.  I say if you consistently get the same number and it
is reasonable, is one of two things:

A. Measurement uncertainty or technique

B.  The malt

I was getting consistently in the high 20's but never broke the magic 30 
barrier until I started using D-K Belgian malt.  On the first batch it
jumped to the low 30's and I have used nothing else since and still get the 
same yield.

Just for the record, my experience is limited to Pils base malt.  I have
never used any of the other base malts.

Measurement uncertainty/technique is a far more complicated issue, involving
many variables.  I would try changing malt first if you are getting
consistent results.


js




Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 08 Dec 95 15:56:37 PST
From: jim_robinson at ccmailsmtp.ast.com
Subject: Wort Abuse


A month or so ago, (sorry, I don't know which HBD) someone 
commented that a Professional Brewmaster from Belgium told him 
that wort should only be transferred by gentle means i.e.. 
gravity or special "low turbulence pumps" lest the final beer 
suffer from such abuse.  As a proud owner/user of a March MDX 
powered brew setup, I sure would like to find out if this is a 
bunch of Bandini.  To make matters worse, I don't use a speed 
controller on my pump.  I found that an "endless loop" plumbed 
into the inlet and outlet line, with a gate valve in the loop 
controls the head pressure really nicely.  Unfortunately, the 
relief loop probably beats the little wort lipids mercilessly.  
So, does anybody really know if we need to be kindlier, gentler 
brewers?

Jim Robinson
Aliso Viejo CA


Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 10:40:04 -0600
From: blacksab at siu.edu
Subject: Phil's Sparge Arm

Has anyone used Phil's rotating sparge arm? Right now I'm using a copper
spiral and it works fine, but I can't seem to leave well enough alone. What
I'm wondering is whether the 10-in. diameter model is hefty enough for
10-gal batches. Should I get one? Should I make one? Is there a better way
to get a rotating sparge arm? 

What is the collective's experience?

TIA,

Harlan


============================================================================

       Harlan Bauer                       ...malt does more than Milton can
    <blacksab at siu.edu>                    To justify God's ways to man.
                                                    
                                                             --A.E. Houseman
============================================================================


Return to table of contents


Date: 10 Dec 95 11:03:21 EST
From: "Sharon A. Ritter" <102446.3717 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Gott set mash summary/dancing bubbles

Thanks to everyone who responded with theories relating to the set mash 
problem I posted. The problem in a nutshell was that I had my first set mash 
using a 10-gallon Gott cooler with a Phil's Phalse Bottom. I suspected the 
problem might have been the 2 quarts of water per pound of grist I ended  with
after mash-out. The responses were: 

        * Use boiling water for each infusion step. This will result in the   
 smallest water to grist ratio at the end.

        * Several respondents noted that they use about the same water to     
 grain ratio with no problems.

        * Other possible culprits could be the Phalse Bottom floating up when 
 infusing water or too fine a grain crush.

        * Try using a large nylon mesh grain bag.

My favorite for its simplicity:

        * 2 quarts per pound is fine.

I'm happy to report that my last batch went off without a hitch.  I used about
1.7 quarts per pound of grain after mash-out.  Ended up with 83% extraction 
rate over a 90 minute sparge.

 ...well not really without a hitch (there's always SOMETHING!). I have a 3/8" 
brass needle valve attached to my Gott with a 5" piece of 3/8" copper bent 
into a faucet type arrangement.  To that piece of copper I attach a 3/8" piece
of vinyl hose that runs the wort to my boiling pot. As I run off the wort I've
noticed 20-30 tiny bubbles forming near the place where the tubing attaches to
the end of the copper pipe. The only way I can get rid of the bubbles (I've 
tightened everything I can tighten) is to open the valve all the way (which 
will reduce my extraction rate). The other option is to run the wort off in a 
small stream down the vinyl tube as opposed to filling the tube completely and
having the tiny bubbles.

Which method will oxidize the wort less - the full tube with the dancing 
bubbles or the trickle stream? Can this small amount of oxidation cause 
problems with the final product? Should I reduce the ID of the hose I'm 
running from the copper tube?  Anyone have a similar experience? 
 
        Dan Ritter in Grangeville, Idaho
        102446.3717 at compuserve.com 

Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 14:21:52 -0500
From: Paul W Placeway <Paul_W_Placeway at LOAN4.SP.CS.CMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Priming with Honey

Tom Neary <tom.neary at peri.com>, writes:

< Has anybody ever primed with honey instead of corn sugar?

Yes.  It works pretty well, and is especially useful if you are
starting with a light honey-based beverage and don't want to throw off
the honey flavor.

< I have read that 1 cup of honey is enough to prime 5 gallons of beer.

Enough to explode bottles.

According to the conversion chart in _Enjoy_Home_Winemaking_, 1 lb sugar ~=
3 cups corn sugar, and 4 lbs sugar ~= 5 lbs honey.  This is fairly
consistent with honey giving around .037 points per gallon.

So if you were going to use 3/4 cups corn sugar, which should be about
1/4 lb of corn sugar (4 oz weight), you will want around 5 oz. weight
of honey.  1 lb of honey is about 10.25 fluid ounces.  So you want
3.28 fl. oz. of honey, or around 6 1/2 Tbs.  Very much less than 1
cup.

< I would like to know if you have to boil the honey with a pint of
< water before adding it to the beer?

Boiling it would be a good idea.  There are usually wild yeasts,
bacteria, and other scrunge in honey that you don't want in your
beer.
		--Paul Placeway

Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 15:05:56 -0500
From: EricHale at aol.com
Subject: IPA & Oak Chips 

I've read some IPA descriptions that mention oak, but I have not been 
able to find any guidance.  A local homebrew supplier, who was 
happy to sell me some chips, could not provide any guidance on how 
to use them.

1.  What's the proper quantity to add?
2.  When/where do you add them?
3.  Do they require any special sanitation?
4.  What are they supposed to provide - flavor or clarification?

Also, to make an IPA I was planning to take an ale recipe and add a
little extra (about a pound of DME) and a bunch of hops.  Any suggestions
about this?

Thanks,
Eric Hale
EricHale at aol.com  (pleasure)
Eric.R.Hale at naperville.nalco.infonet.com  (work)

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 00:50:40 +0200 (IST)
From: diagen at netvision.net.il (Nir Navot)
Subject: Beer Bottles Supply Issue/2 BBL micro

Can anyone point out for me suppliers (wholesale / US or Europe) of brown
beer bottles?

Thanks for all the people who wrote in response to my question regarding
plans for a 2 BBL micro/pilot brewery. Too bad all of you that wrote were
looking for the same information. Sorry, I have nothing regarding 2 BBL to
share with you.

Cheers,
Nir



Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 16:32:24 -0800
From: "Mark A. Melton" <melton at aurora.nscee.edu>
Subject: Pat Babcock and sp.gr.

Pat's message (Dec 9) regarding my suggestion to use the first runnings 
sp.gr. (= SG,  please note) and the volume of the mash liquor, to which I 
responded in a rather scathing manner, was based on a misinterpretation 
of sp.gr. --he thought it meant "spent grains" and I intended SG or 
specific gravity. He has written to me with an explanation and apology 
and I hereby apologize also, so everything is cool --I hope. If anyone 
has any further comments/clarifications/questions please CC me directly 
as we are still having lengthy access problems with the local node and 
long messages get degraded.
Slainte to all,
Mark A. Melton
melton at aurora.nscee.edu

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 00:20:51 -0600 (CST)
From: "Philip Gravel" <pgravel at mcs.com>
Subject: Steam generator

===> Christopher P. Weirup asks about steam generators:

>I have been very interested in the recent thread about pressure cookers as
>steam generators for mashing.  I definitely would like to pursue this
>option for my Gott setup.
> 
>My question is this:  where can I go to get the proper hardware installed
>on the pressure cooker?  I don't have the tools to thread or install values
>and whatever in the cooker, let alone the knowledge.  Plus, I want to make
>sure everything is fitted properly.  Too many things can go wrong with a
>poor job of installing this hardware.

I just completed mine and used it for the first time today.  It worked
great and allowed me to easily and quickly raise the temperature of the
mash without significantly diluting it.

To make the steam generator, I used a small brass ball valve that I
picked up at Builders Square or Home Depot.  It has a 3/8" compression
fitting on one end and a 1/4" or 3/8" MPT (male pipe thread) on the other.
I had a friend at a mechanics shop drill the hole in the lid of the
pressure cooker and thread it.  You can probably do it yourself.  You can
buy taps at hardware stores; perhaps you can rent them at an equipment
rental stores.  The instructions should tell you what size pilot hole to
drill for the tap.

- -- 
Phil
_____________________________________________________________
Philip Gravel   Lisle, Illinois               pgravel at mcs.net

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 08:25:00 EST
From: Bill Ridgely FTS 827-1391 <RIDGELY at A1.CBER.FDA.GOV>
Subject: RE: Kwass

Doug Thomas (thomasd at uchastings.edu) posted a recipe for "kwass"
several issues back, obtained from an old book called "Fortunes in
Formulas":

     >1/2 gallon mare's milk
     >1 teaspoon yeast
     >2 tablespoons sugar

I think the authors were a little confused on the names given to these
indigenous fermentations. Fermented mare's milk is made and consumed
on the steppes of Russia and is called "koumiss". Kwass (or kvass) is
a low-alcohol Russian beverage made primarily from stale black bread.
At one time, it was very popular on the streets of Moscow and other
Russian cities (sold from small tank trailers), but it now seems to
be going the way of many other Russian traditions (into the "dustbin
of history").

Someone once posted some recipes for kvass on the HBD, but I can't
recall who or when (Delano?).

Bill Ridgely (Brewer, Patriot, Bicyclist)                    __o
ridgely at a1.cber.fda.gov (A1 Mail)                           -\<,
ridgely at cber.cber.fda.gov (VMS Mail)                     ...O/ O...
ridgely at burp.org (BURP Mail)



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 07:29:13 -0700
From: mck at yar.cusa.com (Michael Kerns)
Subject: Liquid yeast and fermenting outside

Good Morning Collective!

A couple of questions I was hoping the experienced hber's could help me out
with.  

First, I've only recently started using liquid yeast and I'm getting
conflicting opinions on when to pitch the starter to the wort.  The guy I
buy my supplies from says do it at the first sign of activity.  Another
supply store owner told me wait until I see vigorous fermentation and yet a
third party said to wait until all activity in the starter has ceased.
What's the story here?

Second, I'm dying to try doing a lager but live in a tiny apartment with a
tiny fridge that my spouse insists we use for such incidentals as food.  I
was wondering if I could put the fermenter on my balcony as the temperature
here has been in the 40F to 60F range.  My main questionis would this degree
of temperature shift adversely affect fermentation and taste and has anyone
ever tried this? Private e-mail is fine or post here if you think others
would benefit.  TIA and thanks to all contributors as the info I'm getting
here is great!

Mike


Return to table of contents


Date:          Mon, 11 Dec 1995 09:49:56 EST5EDT
From: "David Wright" <DWRIGHT at osp.emory.edu>
Subject:       Stuck Stout

I have an Imperial Stout that I brewed that has a similiar problem
to Scott Bukofsky's stuck stout, but seems to be more severe.  
Here is a little background on the beer that I have going.

8 lbs Montlicks Dark Extract
chocolate, black patent, and dark crystal grains
2 oz Galena (boiling hops)
1 oz Kent Goldings (finishing hops)
whitbread ale yeast

3 gal batch

OG = 1.095

after two weeks gravity was down to 1.030. I racked to a secondary and 
added a packet of champaign yeast to try and finish up the 
fermentation. The next day the SG = 1.025 but most of the 
fermentation activity seemed to be gone. I have moved the beer from 
my beer closet to the kitchen because I thought that the temperature 
was having an adverse affect (approx. 65 degrees maybe even a couple 
of degrees colder). I have also tried to resuspend the yeast back 
into beer to see of that would help, so far I haven't been able to 
determine the success of this.

Any comments or advice?

David Wright
Office of Sponsored Programs
Emory University
Phone: (404)727-2503
Fax: (404)727-2509
E-Mail: dwright at osp.emory.edu

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 11 Dec 95 07:59:10 pst
From: rbarnes at sdccd.cc.ca.us
Subject: First all-grain batch

I brewed my first all-grain batch on Saturday night (and part of 
Sunday morning). The process seemed to go quite well, but I have 
a few questions.

1. I used a compost thermometer (20" probe) inserted through the lid 
of my 10 gal. Gott. I tested the reading by comparing to my floating
thermometer, and found that at a mash temp of ~ 160 df the compost 
thermometer read about 5 df higher than the floating thermometer. 
However, I could move the probe up and down through the mash and 
the temp would rise (when probe was deeper in the mash) and fall
when the probe was 2 or 3 inches into the mash. I noticed the same
problem when inserted into a pot of hot water. Both thermometers 
read the same temp at when cool (room temp), and read very close to
212 df in boiling water. Is there a way to modify the compost 
thermometer to make it read consistently (and correctly)? Or do I just
need to stir my mash?

2. I have followed the EasyMasher thread (bubbles drawn into mash 
run-off through hose connection) and it dawned on me that I was having
the same problem when draining wort from the lauter tun. Since this 
occurs prior to the boil, will it oxidize the wort? I'll probably 
use clamps next time.

3. I pitched yeast that I grew from a bottle of Chimay. I'm not
sure that I pitched enough. I fed the culture three times, so I started
with nearly a pint. There was a small layer of sediment in the bottom
of the container (~1/8" thick). I decanted all but about 2" of the 
beer on top of the yeast (probably shouldn't have done this), and pitched 
at about 70 df. I've kept the fermenter warm with a heating pad (70-75df),
but I'm not seeing much evidence of fermentation yet. Air lock seems quiet,
there's a thin layer of foam and bubbles on top of the wort, but I'm 
used to more vigorous action. O.G. = 1.048, time since pitching 36 hrs.

4. Does anyone know of a 220V temp controller that I could use with a
hot water heater element? This would be used in a keg to heat mash water.

Thanks in advance.

Randy Barnes, San Diego

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 11 Dec 95 8:30:20 MST
From: "James Giacalone" <JGiacalone at vines.ColoState.EDU>
Subject: Carbonation

I recently bottled a smokey porter using 1 cup cooked 
malt extract to prime.  It has been 4 weeks now and 
the beer tastes REALLY good but slightly under carbonated.
When I brought a few bottles to California for Thanksgiving,
My friends opened a few bottles and they were all completely
flat!  This is not the first time this has happened.  I have taken 
homebrew to New York with me that has been well carbonated
 here in Ft. Collins (Elevation ~ 5,000 ft) only to find it flat
when I arrive at sea level.  Can the pressure difference be that
much to affect the beer?  Even the unopened bottles that sat at
 sea level for a week or two were not carbonated.  
When I got back to Ft. Collins I opened another and it was fine.
Could it be the caps I am using?  Change in Elevation?
Please help!  I hate watching good beer go down the drain!

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 11 Dec 95 11:52:02 EST
From: "Harralson, Kirk" <kwh at roadnet.ups.com>
Subject: Once and future felony.....

     In HBD 1903, FxBonz at aol.com (Steve)ends with a great tag line:
     
     >Brewing beer is far more exciting when it is both a hobby AND a 
     >felony!
     >                                          The Alabama Outlaw
     
     As 1995 comes to a close, it occurs to me that there is a way for you 
     to get back to your "felony" status.  I believe it is only legal to 
     make up to 200 gallons of homebrew per year per household.  If this 
     isn't a great incentive to get a bigger kettle, more carboys, etc., I 
     don't know what is!  My 1995 production was well under this, but it 
     gives me a great target for 1996.  Is anyone out there over the limit 
     yet?  Anyone close?  Big equipment ar ar ar ar....
     
     Kirk Harralson
     Bel Air, Maryland


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 11:16:22 -0600
From: John Wilkinson <jwilkins at imtn.tpd.dsccc.com>
Subject: Fuller's ESB Clone

In HBD #1905 Ian Smith <rela!isrs at netcom.com> asked about a Fuller's ESB Clone.
I am enclosing one I think appeared in HBD or rcb before.  A co-worker
tried it and liked it.  I sampled his brew and while not quite the
same flavor of Fuller's, (hops, maybe?) I thought it quite good.  I made
it this weekend and anxiously wait to taste it.
Here is the recipe (unfortunately the author's name has been lost);

>   Here's the Fuller's recipe I've been working on for awhile--I haven't yet
>bottled this particular batch, but it tasted great at racking.
>
>     3.3# Munton & Fison extra light extract syrup
>      4.5# 2-row malt
>      0.5# crystal (40 deg. L)
>      1.0# flaked maize
>      0.25# dark Belgian candi sugar (275 deg. L)
>
>   1 step infusion, mini-mash  at  154 deg. F for 70 minutes, or until
>conversion.  Mashout  at  170 deg. F for 20 minutes.  Sparge w/3 gallons water  at 
>150 deg. F to collect 4.25 gallons.
>
>      1 oz Bullion pellets (8.5 AAU) 60 mins
>      1 oz Bullion pellets (8.5 AAU) 20 mins
>      1 oz Goldings flowers (4.5 AAU) 20 mins
>      0.75 oz Goldings flowers (4.5 AAU) 10 mins
>      0.25 oz goldings flowers dry-hopped in secondary
>
>   You want an O.G. of around 1.052 - 1.054 (this recipe gave me 1.053). 
>Bittering hops in Fuller's, from what I've read, are not Bullion but
>Challenger, Target, and/or Northdown (which can be tough to find).  Any
>high AAU, British hop should get you pretty close as long as you finish
>with Goldings.
>	
>   The flaked maize is a must and needs to be 8-10% of your total grain
>bill.  I used the dark Belgian candi sugar to try and get a little closer
>to the right amber/orange color (my first try came out too light).
>
>   If you don't want to mash any grains, I'd suggest using another can of
>M&F, and a pound of corn sugar instead of the grains.  You could darken the
>beer a little by carmelizing some of the extract (leave your kettle on the
>burner when you add the extract).
>
>   The yeast you want to use is Wyeast's 1968 (London ale).

I got Challenger hop plugs from Williams Brewing (800) 759-6025 as I could
not find them locally.  My co-worker used Bullion the first time for this
reason.  He also substituted some kind of dark unrefined sugar because
he could not find Belgian Candi sugar.  I ordered some from Brewer's
Resource (800) 827-3983 but it did not arrive in time to use this past weekend.
I went without it.  I will see how that worked.  I plan to brew it again
next weekend with the Belgian Candi sugar.


Return to table of contents

End of HOMEBREW Digest #1908, 12/13/95