FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Real Beer Page-December Issue (MANCUSJM)
  Wyeast 1338 Sulfur like aroma (Nir Navot)
  RE: hop usage; boiling times (Glenn Tinseth)
  Thank you/Question about mash temps (Bob Tortajada x9373)
  Scotch Ale recipe needed ("Gabrielle Palmer")
  Decoction mashing in the 20th century... ("Steven W. Smith")
  counter-flow chillers (DHatlestad)
  Re: Stout High FG (Algis R Korzonas)
  Re: Questions about mashing (Alejandro Midence)
  Typo (A. J. deLange)
  Is it true that..... (Todd W. Roat)
  Re: Decoction/Sparge (Dan Sherman)
  Sake style rice wine (Michael Boenisch)
  request (AuBservshn)
  Quality Suggestion ("Frederick L. Pauly")
  Re: CF Wort Chiller plans (Bob McCowan)
  Protein rest during decoctions ("Bob Hall" )
  re: Soda kegs... (Stan Fisher)
  Exploding Bottles (RUSt1d?)
  VERY foamy brown ale from a keg (Chris Jeffries)
  Re: CO2 in solution (Mike Uchima)
  Mash-tun Heating (THaby)
  Compressability of liquids ("Goodale, Daniel CPT 2AD DISCOM")
  Recent topics (Chris Cooper)
  oven mashing (Bill Countie)
  Re:  thanks for response on partial decoction (fwd) (Alejandro Midence)
  War of the Worts Competition (Alan Folsom)
  re:specs for beer styles, carbonation (KICKAHAbRU)
  Heating  Sparge in Plastic Bucket (w.r.) crick" <crick at bnr.ca>
  Decoction for weizen (Bill Pemberton)
  CO2 loss during siphoning/break removal (Algis R Korzonas)
  Re: Soda kegs... (Bill Pemberton)
  RE:  Brewer's Workpapers (Russ Kruska)
  compressible? (dludwig)
  Subjects unrelated to Homebrewing (dludwig)
  Fuller's ESB (Jeff Hewit)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 12:33 -0500 (EST)
From: MANCUSJM at sysadm.suny.edu
Subject: Real Beer Page-December Issue

The following appeared on the Real Beer Page, December Issue.  I am
only passing along the information.  I do not have a vested interest in the
page or any of the merchants (Although I will take the advice to quietly
post the note at home).


* Holiday Wrap up:
The following list of gift ideas is for anyone who likes beer. If you're a
beer 
enthusiast, print this out and leave it around in strategic places --
windshields, 
the bathroom mirror, bird cage, etc. -- as a hint about what you'd like to
receive 
this year...

** For the Home and Pro Brewer on Your List **
The ultimate gift for homebrewers? Try a 10-week intensive brewer's 
apprenticeship program from the American Brewer's Guild. It costs
$6,950 but 
everyone who graduated last year is now brewing professionally, so
we think it 
pays for itself. A little more than you were thinking about spending? Try
the 2-
day advanced homebrewer course for $149.00 or for that special
someone 
interested in opening a micro or brewpub, the 2-day How-To course
complete 
with business plan for $395.00. Sign up at http://realbeer.com/abg/

If you want a gift that reminds your favorite brewer about your
generosity the 
whole year, we'd like to recommend a subscription to
BrewingTechniques 
magazine. You can order a 1-year subscription for $30 and find the
order form 
at: http://brewingtechniques.com/brewingtechniques/order_form.html

Just online and on time for the holidays is BYO Magazine - Brew Your
Own. It's 
new and you can pick it up in your local homebrew shop or better yet,
order it 
online. Go to: http://realbeer.com/byo/subscribe.html

** Beer Information Lovers **
Have beer news delivered year-round right to their door:

West coast focus with editorial across the U.S.: The Celebrator Beer
News. 1-
year subscription to The Celebrator: $14.95/Gift subscriptions for only
$12.00!  
Go to: http://realbeer.com/celebrator/cel.subform.html

Southeast focus with editorial covering general beer news and
homebrewing: 
Southern Draft Brew News. 1-year subscription to Southern Draft Brew
News: 
$17. Go to: http://realbeer.com/sodraft/subform.html

Hawaii coverage and general brew news: Brew Hawaii. 1-year
subscription to 
Brew Hawaii:  Go to: http://realbeer.com/brewhawaii/

Coming soon to the Real Beer Page: Yankee Brew News (and others
t.b.a. in 
the next RBPMail)!

** Beer History, Travels and Transitions **
You can order the Mac or PC version of Michael Jackson's Beer Hunter
CD-
ROM and discover what his favorite 24 beers are from the U.S. You'll
also view 
video about beer history, the brew process and much more. This is a
great way 
for brew lovers to educate friends and family about why you're so crazy
about 
the stuff. And the English accent somehow makes the whole
presentation seem 
more high-brow. The CD-ROM costs $39.95 and is available at: 
http://realbeer.com/beerhunter/beerhunter.order.form.html

Brew Travels are covered with richness and depth in Brew Magazine.
The 
highly photographic presentation and chamber of commerce-like travel 
planning guides almost put you there as they visit 6-7 breweries and
events in 
each issue. Best part of this magazine? Almost no advertising, and
they're 
interested in keeping it this way. 1-year subscription: $25.00, but get
two; you'll 
want a copy yourself. Travel to: 
http://realbeer.com/brew/subscription/subscription.html

Want to head out on the brew travels path yourself? Make sure you use
our 
brewtour database at http://realbeer.com/rbp/brewtour.html. And if you
want a 
hard-copy with a map of the area, order Coops Maps. They're just $3.95
per 
region or $24.00 for 6 maps that cover the whole U.S. Check them out at 
http://realbeer.com/coops/prduct.html

For those who love all things malted, you might want to turn them on to
the Malt 
Advocate. This magazine has received highest praise from around the
world for 
quality writing about beer and its very close relative, whiskey. If the
desire for 
more flavor and craft-quality has brought you to real beer, we believe
you'll 
enjoy what this magazine will bring to your understanding of
craft-brewing. One-
year subscription is less than a good bottle of whiskey at $12.95. To
order, go 
to: http://realbeer.com/maltadvocate/malt.subform.html

** Beer Wear and Collectables **
We're pleased to bring you over 60 brewpub and microbrewery
tee-shirts from 
all across the U.S. --as well as the Great American Beer Festival shirts --
if 
you're looking for labels or beer images for your screensavers, you're in
heaven 
when you hit these pages.  Use our electronic shopping cart to order
several 
tee-shirts or sign up for the brew-tee of the month club. The recipient will
receive 
a new beer tee shirt each month, perfect for the ones who spill on
themselves a 
lot. Prices range from $12.95/tee and up in 3, 6 or 12 month formats.
Shop 'till 
your modem drops at: http://realbeer.com/brewtees/

Another beer lover one-stop shop is Beer Master's Tasting Society. From
their 
pages you can order glassware, tee-shirts, caps, newsletters, BMTS 
membership and more. The society is open to all who enjoy beer and can
be 
found at: http://beermasters.com/beermasters/form.html

Now that we've got you thirsty for a real beer, imagine how nice it would
be to 
sample a craftbrewed beer from a different brewery each month and
have it 
delivered right to your house. Now this is possible, and it can all be set
up right 
from the the World Wide Web. 1-800MICROBREW will deliver
hand-crafted, 
microbrewed beer from breweries all over the U.S. directly to your
doorstep 
each month. Also makes a great gift that keeps on giving all year long.
Get more info at http://realbeer.com/800microbrew.

Vanberg & Dewulf are the only importers to specialize in Belgian beers
(in which also include those of French Flanders) They have now made 
available a comprehensive look at their collection, numbering 30 beers
from 10 
breweries representing interpretations of 18 different styles, on the
WWW. 
Check out the unique Belgian glassware that they offer to compliment a
fine 
Belgian Beer: http://realbeer.com/vanberg


You can also order beer merchandise right from the brewers at the
following 
urls:

   Flying Fish         http://realbeer.com/flyingfish/WannaWear.html
   Lost Coast         http://realbeer.com/lostcoast/LCB_goodies.html
   Rockbottom     http://realbeer.com/rockbottom/merchandise.html
   Rogue                 http://realbeer.com/rogue/merchandise.html
   Shipyard           http://realbeer.com/shipyard/catalog.html
   Tied House       http://realbeer.com/tiedhouse/tied.merch.html
   Twenty Tank     http://realbeer.com/20tank/20.merch.html
   Triple Rock        http://realbeer.com/3rock/3rock.merch.html

And of course, you can get a tee shirt with that smiling Duke of URL
himself, the 
Real Beer Page guy at:

                             http://realbeer.com/rbp/rbp.rbpmerch.html

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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 20:08:13 +0200 (IST)
From: diagen at netvision.net.il (Nir Navot)
Subject: Wyeast 1338 Sulfur like aroma

Has anyone experienced a sulfur-like (rotten eggs) smell during
fermentation by Wyeast 1338 (alt strain)?
TIA
Nir



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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 10:12:22 -0800
From: gtinseth at teleport.com (Glenn Tinseth)
Subject: RE: hop usage; boiling times

Greg King <GKING at ARSERRC.Gov> asks:

>If hop aroma and flavor are pretty much gone after 10-15 minutes of
>boiling in the wort, and extraction of the bittering alpha acids takes
>at least 30 minutes of boiling time (with even longer times being
>preferable), is there ever any benefit derived from an addition of hops
>with 20 minutes left in the boil?

Hop essential oils (the flavor and aroma culprits) are not completely gone
after 10-15 minutes of boiling. Even a 60 minute boil can leave hop flavor
components in addition to bitterness. Of course a longer boil removes more
hop oils, but there is always something left. The flavor contribution
changes, in character and magnitude as a function of boil time.

Glenn

Glenn Tinseth                                 gtinseth at teleport.com
Project Manager                 Homebrewer and Certified Beer Judge
Terra Pacific Writing Corp--Technical Communication and Translation



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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 13:18:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Bob Tortajada x9373 <bobt at bear.com>
Subject: Thank you/Question about mash temps

First, I would like to thank all of you for the information about 
all-grain. Each and every response I got provided valuble insight into 
all-grain brewing. I will start to aquire the equipment needed and will 
do an all grain batch after the holidays. 

==================================

I did a partial grain/extract this last weekend and during the mash I 
let the temps get up to about 175F before settling at 158. Will elevated 
temps prevent the starch/sugar conversion from occuring even if you bring 
the temps back down? 

After the mash I tested the SG before adding the extract. Does the SG 
show sugars only or will soluble starches affect the SG as well.

One final question. Will unconverted starches affect the beer??


- --
*******************************************************************************
Bear Stearns is not responsible for any recommendation, solicitation, offer or
agreement or any information about any transaction, customer account or account
activity contained in this communication.
*******************************************************************************

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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 13:23:33 EST
From: "Gabrielle Palmer" <gabriellepalmer at e-mail.com>
Subject: Scotch Ale recipe needed

                                                                               
Greetings Homebrewers,                                                         
                                                                               
I'm looking for a good "extract with specialty grains" recipe for a Scotch     
Ale. I'm going to help a friend make this for his band's cd release party in   
January or February. All suggestions will be appreciated. Private replies      
appreciated, but you can post on the HBD if you think others would be          
interested. TIA.                                                               
                                                                               
Regards,                                                                       
Gabrielle Palmer                                                               
Phone: (313)59-42107     PROFS ID: GPALMER6                                    
Fax:   (313)32-24359     internet: gabriellepalmer at e-mail.com                  

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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 11:46:48 -0700 (MST)
From: "Steven W. Smith" <SYSSWS at gc.maricopa.edu>
Subject: Decoction mashing in the 20th century...

  Hola, decoction gurus!  I've been sincerely trying to understand what's 
going on with decoction mashing and, of course, would like to clear some things 
up.  You remove "the thickest portion of the mash and boil it" for x? minutes 
 - lately I've been reading here that a strainer could/should be used for 
getting this "thick portion" to minimize the liquid drawn off (sorry 'bout the
lack of credits for the strainer, I used to use an Al pot and have several 
mercury amalgam fillings ;-)

  It seems as though what you're really doing is boiling a small amount of 
wort and _steaming_ the grains that were removed by the steam rising 
through the grain.  It also seems as though the depth of the grain being 
boiled in this manner would be rather critical, but I've never seen that 
issue addressed.

  If The Whole Point (TM) of this exercise is to raise the temperature of 
some of the grain to X degrees (212F ?) to work "chemistry magic", yet 
avoid scorching the bottom, mightn't one accomplish this rather handily and 
quickly by using a microwave oven and corningware/pyrex rather than direct 
heat to the bottom of a pot?

  Am I tragically off-track here, or the proud daddy of Lazy Brewer's Nuclear 
Lager?  If someone who understands the reactions involved would be kind enough
to summarize the process in a "raise X percent of the grain to X degrees for X 
minutes" manner I'd like to give it a shot.  If appropriate, explaining at 
which point I became full of beans would likewise be appreciated :-)

  _,_/|   Steven W. Smith
  \o.O;   Systems Programmer, but not a Licensed Therapist
 =(___)=  Glendale Community College.  Glendale Az.
    U     syssws at gc.maricopa.edu or smith at peabody.gc.maricopa.edu
    "I see a BIG telephone bill in your future!" - my Psychic Friend

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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 15:58:25 -0500
From: DHatlestad at aol.com
Subject: counter-flow chillers

I use the copper tube in a hose model. To make the chiller more manageable, I
coiled it around a 5 gallon bucket. I arranged the chiller in one orderly
layer from top to bottom, using nylon wire ties threaded through holes
drilled in the bucket to keep the coils from moving. The theory was to
maintain a 'grade' from top to bottom because I siphon the hot wort from my
boil pot. I'm sure it's overkill, but mine is 35' long; the tube diameter is
3/8". Needless to say, I can chill my wort down to the temperature of my tap
water with no problem. The bucket provides a handy handle and a place to
stash a few odds and ends.

  Cheers,
  Don
  dhatlestad at aol.com
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Try my free HBD Browser for Windows available at ftp.stanford.edu.

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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 95 15:59:10 CST
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: Re: Stout High FG

Scott writes:
>Mashed grains at 155 deg.  O.G. 1.063
>I pitched a very active starter,
<snip>
> racked to secondary with a gravity of 1.017.

The important thing is the change in gravity.  From 1.063 to 1.017 is
73% attenuation.  This is typical for Wyeast Irish Ale.  No problem.
Let the beer sit for a week to settle yeast and bottle.  It will
be fruity because of the heat, but should be tasty.  Personally, I
like fruity stouts.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at pubs.att.com

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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 16:35:48 -0600
From: Alejandro Midence <alex at conline.com>
Subject: Re: Questions about mashing



 GKING <GKING at ARSERRC.Gov> wrote:


> 

> There are a few questions I have about the mashing process that one
> of you kind souls could answer (or point me to the relevant book(s)).
A relevant book would be The New Complete Joy Of Homebrewing by Charlie 
Papazian.  Another would be Principles Of Brewing by Dr. George Fix. 
Still another is Dave Miller's Complete Handbook Of Homebrewing.



> 
> Why do some brewers use a single protein rest, and others use 2 or
> even 3 rests?
There is only one protein rest at about 40 degrees celsius or 122 degrees 
Farenheit which  is conducted.  The reason for a protein rest is so that 
adequate nutrients can be provided for the yeast to carry fermentation 
out to it's completeness.  The other one or, at times, two rest are 
related to converting starches to sugars.  In light-bodied beers, a rest 
of 149 to 152 degrees f or sixty degrees celsius is conducted in order 
for highly fermentable sugars to be extracted from the grains. In more 
high-bodied beers, a rest at 158 degrees aids in the production of 
unfermentable dextrines which will give mouth and body to the beer.



> 
> What is accomplished in the "mashing out" step?


You deactivate the enzymes at this stage.  


> 
> >From what I've read, one should avoid heating the mash above 170^F
> (or is it 180^F?) because too many astringent phenolic compounds are
> extracted from the grains above this temperature.  However, in decoc-
> tion mashing, portions of the grain are removed, boiled (T > 200^F),
> and then returned to the mash to raise the overall temperature of the
> mash.  Doesn't boiling these portions of grain result in the extraction
> of some unwanted phenolic compounds?

>From what I understand, Decoction mashing provides more melanoidins which 
contribute a malty flavor to beers.  This maltiness is the flavor which 
is associated with Bocks, hels, and other German styles.  It can be a 
more time consuming process since you have to watch it so that it doesn't 
burn.  BTW, I thank the person who responded to my question about mashing 
in 1901.  I'll e-mail you personally since I have, unfortunately, 
forgotten your name.  Some of the finalic flavors come from unconverted 
starches in the grain which the boiling brings to the fore.  These are 
converted to sugars when the decoct is added to the rest of the mash 
whose enzymes are still active. 

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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 20:28:08 -0500
From: ajdel at interramp.com (A. J. deLange)
Subject: Typo

In #1906 I wrote concerning sparging:
"If pH gets above 5 before the desired runoff gravity is
reached...terminate...or acidify..."
It should read "above 6". Sorry about any confusion.

A.J. deLange   Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore!
ajdel at interramp.com



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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 20:22:57 -0500
From: troat at one.net (Todd W. Roat)
Subject: Is it true that.....

Hey science guys...... Someone told me that the fermenting beer in a carboy
is several degrees warmer than the air outside the carboy because the
chemical reactions taking place within the carboy during fermentation
generate heat/energy.  In a 60 degree house during Winter, could one put
some faith in this "theory" and assume the fermenting ale to be at 65
degrees?  Im hoping what they meant by "several" degrees warmer means about
5 degrees.  Any brewers doing open fermentations able to test this theory or
is the theory wrong to begin with?
Thanks Encyclopedia Brewtanica (got tired of "The Collective")
Todd

"The bottle was dusty but the liqour was clean"

 "Too much of everything is just enough!" 


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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 18:35:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Dan Sherman <dsherman at sdcc3.ucsd.edu>
Subject: Re: Decoction/Sparge

In HBD #1906, A.J. deLange listed as one of the cons of decoction mashing:

4. Darkens beer 


This can also be a pro -- allowing one to create that wonderfully malty, 
deep brown dunkel bock, dopplebock, etc.

Cheers!

Dan Sherman
dsherman at ucsd.edu

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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 95 21:57 EST
From: Michael Boenisch <mikebone at charm.net>
Subject: Sake style rice wine

Does anyone out there know anything about making sake (rice wine)? In Japan
it's made by beer manufacturers like Kirin. I understand the process is similar.

Mike Boenisch
Scientist, Fly Fisherman, Reformed Delinquent!
Charm City, MD, USA


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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 22:33:07 -0500
From: AuBservshn at aol.com
Subject: request

Please add me to the list
Please send me info on home brewing

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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 08:09:05 -0500
From: "Frederick L. Pauly" <flp2m at galen.med.virginia.edu>
Subject: Quality Suggestion

To all those involved in the quality debate please read the book
by Robert Pirsig "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance".
The book is 400 pages long, he went crazy, and then had to ride
is motorcycle across the country and I don't think he ever did
come away with the "answer".

Rick Pauly
Nuclear Med Tech  Charlottesville, VA

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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 08:21:08 -0500
From: Bob McCowan <bob.mccowan at cfrp.varian.com>
Subject: Re: CF Wort Chiller plans

Seems like 45 feet of copper is overkill.  I made one  with less than 20
feet and 5/8 hose and the only problem I've had is chilling to a temp too
low and having to warm the wort before pitching ale yeast.

Bob

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob McCowan                            
                                      voice:  (508)-922-6000 x208
ATG/Receiver-Protector                fax:    (508)-922-8914
CPI BMD
Formerly Varian CF&RPP                e-mail: bob.mccowan at cfrp.varian.com
Beverly, MA  01915

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 09:35:09 -0500
From: "Bob Hall" <bhall at sparc.ecology.uga.edu>
Subject: Protein rest during decoctions

I decoct my mashes for all dark lagers; the malt character in the beer is worth 
the effort. However, what is the effect of, what seems to me, to be an overlong 
protein rest on the wort? After pulling the decoction 10 min into the 50 C 
protein rest, it is at least 1 h (I do long boils) before the decoction is put 
back to the main mash to raise the temp to starch rest. I suspect that with the 
undermodified malts that Noonan spoke about in his book, that this was not a 
problem. I use Ireks malts - are these modified enough so that a 70 min protein 
rest is going to chop up too many proteins? Head retention on my beers is not 
spectatcular, however they taste ok. 


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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 08:03:31 -0700
From: Stan Fisher <stanf at goodnet.com>
Subject: re: Soda kegs...    

>The pin-lock type - Coke - tend to be taller canisters. Also, the disconnects  
>are much taller as well. They also appear to be more durable, but I can't      
>substantiate that. The ball-lock - Pepsi - are shorter, but marginally wider.  
>The disconnects do not stand as tall above the keg, either. 

Ya got that backwards friend...  5 gal. Coke cornelius = short, wide pin-lock
                                5 gal. Pepsi cornelius = tall, narrow ball-lock

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
    Stan Fisher | stanf at goodnet.com - http://www.goodnet.com/~stanf
  (602)893-3620 (H)|         I brew again therefore I drink.
(602)866-5399 x486(W) | Friends don't let friends drink Light Beer.


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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 09:58:34 -0500
From: RUSt1d? <rust1d at swamp.li.com>
Subject: Exploding Bottles

I have a batch of IPA with O.G. of 1051 and F.G. of 1019. This was a Dry
Malt Ext. w/1.5 lbs of specialty grains. The S.G. stayed at 1019 for 4 days
so I bottled it. I though maybe it was a little high, but no activity.

Now I am wondering, If a bottle was going to explode, how long would it take
to do so?  From the current thread of carbonation, I would assume that all
bottling sugar is gone in 2 days.  So if no *pop* in 2 days can I assume
that the fermentation was not stuck and all is well?

TIA,

John Varady
Big Belly Homebrew - It'll grow on you.



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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 09:01:52 -0600
From: Chris Jeffries <jeffries at accessus.net>
Subject: VERY foamy brown ale from a keg

I am a rookie brewer who just laid a few too many clams down on some metal
kegs and a tap for my brewing activity.  I eagerly anticipated my batch of
Brown Ale on tap.  I tried it for the first time last night.  When poured
through my dandy new tap, it came out almost completely as head - a very
Guinness-like foamy head.  It took at least 20 minutes for the beer to
settle down enough for a taste.  

What's causing the problem...  My beer (very possible, I haven't done this
very many times)    My new tap?  Any ideas?

Thanks for your help.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Jeffries
jeffries at accessus.net
http://www.accessus.net/~jeffries/


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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 10:48:38 -0600
From: uchima at fncrd8.fnal.gov (Mike Uchima)
Subject: Re: CO2 in solution

In issue #1907, SLGibson71 at aol.com points out:
> [...] 
> 
> As far as the CO2 in the headspace coming back into solution,
> there is some transfer of CO2 molecules back and forth between
> air and liquid but the overall concentration remains constant. 
> Let's just say that for every CO2 molecule that goes back into
> solution, there must be another molecule leaving solution.  The
> pressure caused by the CO2 in the air space will not change the
> concentration of the dissolved CO2, but it will change the
> density of the beer until the cap is removed.

I'm sorry, but this simply cannot be correct. The quantity of gas that will
dissolve (and stay dissolved) in liquid is *very* dependent on the pressure of
the gas above it. If this was not true, then you couldn't "force carbonate"
beer using a CO2 tank; and beer (and soft drinks) that were left uncapped
would never go flat!

The change in density of the beer itself due to external pressure is
practically nil; I'd be very surprised if it can even be measured, without
sophisticated equipment. When was the last time you saw the *beer* expand when
the bottle was uncapped? (I'm talking about the liquid itself, not any bubbles
that might come out of solution.)

> Finally, liquids are compressable.  Just ask any scuba diver.  
> A defined amount of liquid will change density but not concentration.

I do not see how you can change the density of anything without changing its
concentration, as the two are proportional to each other.

> Notice that I say a defined amount, because for
> example, a cubic foot of water at the bottom of a lake would be
> more dense and more concentrated than a cubic foot at the top
> because there is simply more water molecules packed into the
> cubic foot at depth.

The compressability of water is so slight that it is negligible at the
pressures encountered in a bottle of beer. The amount of dissolved CO2 is
determined primarily by the pressure and the temperature (colder liquids can
hold more dissolved gas).

- -- Mike Uchima
- -- uchima at fnal.gov

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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 8:55:11 CST
From: THaby at swri.edu
Subject: Mash-tun Heating

Brewers, When doing an infusion mash is it practical to preheat the mash-tun
(in my case an Igloo 10gal cooler) with water that is slightly higher than 
the mash temp. water? I was thinking of doing the following:
 
1. Heat about 4 gallons of water to just above mash temp.
2. Let sit for about one half hour for heat transfer in the mash tun.
3. Drain
4. Start infusion mash process.

I apologize if this question has been beat to death here. Thanks for any
help you can provide.
 
Tim Haby

thaby at swri.edu

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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 10:32:00 PST
From: "Goodale, Daniel CPT 2AD DISCOM" <GoodaleD at hood-03.army.mil>
Subject: Compressability of liquids


>Finally, liquids are compressable.  Just ask any scuba diver.  A
>defined amount of liquid will change density but not
>concentration.  Notice that I say a defined amount, because for
>example, a cubic foot of water at the bottom of a lake would be
>more dense and more concentrated than a cubic foot at the top
>because there is simply more water molecules packed into the
>cubic foot at depth.

Check me on this, but one of the few things I retained from
good old SUNY Cortland was that liquids are not generally
compressable.  Isn't that the basis of hydrolics in
general?  Thats why we put brake fluid in our cars and
why it is disasterous to get a very compressable air
bubble in your brake line.  The air would compress instead
of just pushing as the liquid would.  I've been scuba
diving in lakes before and havn't noticed thicker water near
the bottom (too scared of sudden death to notice much of
anything probably).  The water may be denser near the
bottom, but I would say it was caused by colder tempatures
and not due to compression.

               DANIEL W. GOODALE
               CPT, CM
               DISCOM Chemical Officer




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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 12:53:10 -0500
From: Chris Cooper <ccooper at a2607cc.msr.hp.com>
Subject: Recent topics

Hi all!

I've been busy lately and my brewing schedule has slowed to an unacceptable
rate so I'm gearing up for a holiday brew-fest with a couple fellow brewers.

The other day I set my carboy on the "Maytag" and noticed that a stopper
had been "infused", I started to worry (a cardianl sin for a brewer)
so I "decocted" the following plan. First "sparge" the inverted carboy
(I'm not trying to resurrect the "inverted carboy" thread !) with
"propane inside" and heat to force the stopper out. I'm not sure which
would be the best heat source, "stove/oven", "steam injection" or a
full blown Cajun cooker.  I wouldn't want to turn the carboy into a
"Koch"-rocket with me as the pilot.  My main concern is, will this effect 
the "quality" of my brew?  IMQR (Is My Quality Ruined)

Boy, this digest has really effected  my stream-of-conscience lately!
Keep up the good work all!



Chris Cooper , Commerce Michigan    --> Pine Haven Brewery <--
ccooper at a2607.cc.msr.hp.com         --> aka. Deb's Kitchen <--
 


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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 13:38:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Countie <wgcount at husc.harvard.edu>
Subject: oven mashing

To maintain a constant temp in an oven is impossible, but there is a way 
to mash in the oven and to be sure of the temperature. Put your 
thermometer into a pan of water and put the oven at it's lowest setting. 
close the oven and check it every 1/2 hour. Adjust the oven to achive the 
desired level of heat. I use this method to do an infusion mash.  It 
takes awhile to find this temperature, but I feel better knowing rather 
than guessing.  Remove the pan with the water and insert kettle with the 
mash.I leave the themometer in the mash and check it through the oven window.  
The oven timer reminds me to check every 30 min.

Bill Countie-Ale Connor-Just tell me where to sit
Merrimack Valley Homebrewers
e-mail wgcount at husc7.harvard.edu


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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 14:29:48 -0600 (CST)
From: Alejandro Midence <alex at conline.com>
Subject: Re:  thanks for response on partial decoction (fwd)

Dear collective,

In hbd1901 I posed a question to you regarding a partial decoction mash.  
Jim di Palma responded with some very constructive suggestions which I 
have decided to post with his prior consent.  I left the message 
completely in tact with  my own comments and his answers to them.

On tu 12 dec. 1995 Jim di Palma was so gtood as to write:


> 
> >I am mighty grateful to you for your response to my query on the 
> >decoction mashing.
> 
> No problem, glad to help.
> 
> >  So, you're saying that if I were to boil say, one 
> >third of the lager and munich malts, I could maybe pull it off if I 
> >mashed the other remaining malts together?
> 
> Here's what I would do:
> 
>   Mash-in at 122F. As soon as the temp is stable at 122F, remove 40-50% of
> the thickest portion of the mash. I've found that the 1/3 that Noonan and
> others recommend is not quite enough, you'll undershoot the target mash temp.
> To remove the thickest portion, tip the pot, allow the liquid to run to one
> side, remove the grain from the other side. The liquid contains most of the
> enzymes, you don't want to boil them. Also, don't bother with a protein rest
> - Munich malt is extremely well modified.
>   Heat the thickest 40-50% to 155F and hold to conversion. You want to convert
> this portion of the mash before boiling it, since boiling denatures the
> enzymes. 155F is a temp at which both beta amylase and alpha amylase are
> active, so you'll likely see full conversion in 30-40 minutes. Don't bother
> doing a step mash with the decocted portion - once it's boiled, some degree
> of caramelization occurs anyway, so a rest at 145-150F doesn't buy you
> anything.
>   Once converted, heat *slowly* to boiling, taking care not to scorch the
> mash. Boil 15 minutes, then add back to the main mash that's sitting at
> 122F. Mix *thoroughly*, this is very important. You'll find the re-combined
> mash will settle at 150-158F, you can apply heat to adjust if needed. Hold
> the re-combined mash to conversion, then mash-out. Since you saved most of the
> enzymes in the liquid portion of the main mash, any unconverted starch that's
> released by boiling the decoction will be converted.
>   The only other suggestion I have is to use as much Munich malt as possible.
> A true Munich malt is a very special product, intended to produce the rich,
> malty flavors of a bock. When I brew bock, I use Ireks Munich as 85% of the
> grain bill.
> 
> Hope this helps,
> Jim
> 


I hope this has been to your edificationc hbders.  

y'all take care now,

alex



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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 13:02:21 -0800
From: folsom at ix.netcom.com (Alan Folsom)
Subject: War of the Worts Competition

We (finally) have the competition packets for the War of the Worts 
contest, to be held Jan 20th outside New Hope, PA, at the Buckingham 
Mountain Brewery and Restaurant.  Any people who emailed me with 
requests should get the packets shortly.

If anyone else is interested in judging or entering the contest, please 
send me a USMail address, and I'll get a packet out right away.

Thanks,

Al Folsom

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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 16:40:02 -0500
From: KICKAHAbRU at aol.com
Subject: re:specs for beer styles, carbonation

Hello HBDers,

DejNik at aol.com asks "does anyone know where I can get specifications for
different styles of beer, like O.G, F.G ranges, color, bitterness etc."

Charlie Papazians "The Homebrewer's Companion" has a pretty extensive listing
of beer
styles and thier specifics, also SUDS 4.0 has an AHA beer style data base,
you can find it in the downloads of AOL

Now for my .03 cents worth (inflation) on the carbonation thread,  it seems
to me in my limited knowledge that as CO2 is produced in solution, since
that's where the yeast is, that it will also leave solution so as to maintain
equlibrium as it is produced.  Therefore the carbonation level of the beer
and the amount of CO2 in the head space should be at approx. the same levels
until full carbonation is reached.  Maybe thats too simple an explanation
(and -maybe- wrong) but its something to think about.

Just us yeasties here!

Jeff Burch <  KICKAHAbRU at aol.com

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Date:  Tue, 12 Dec 1995 16:47:19 +0000 
From: "bill (w.r.) crick" <crick at bnr.ca>
Subject:  Heating  Sparge in Plastic Bucket 

Regarding heating sparge water in a plastic bucket using a water heater element:
If you get a 220V element, and run it on 110V, then it will produce about
1/4 of its rated power, which will reduce its temp considerably. I use
a 3000W 220V element at 100 volts mounted in a plastic juice bottle to 
heat sparges. We call it the HotRod. The plastic bottle acts as a handle,
a sheild against touching the wilres, and a float. That is you can throw it 
into a bucket and it floats with the element down. NOTE: the element sticks
out of the juice bottle, with the wires inside the bottle. The bottom of the
bottle has been cut off.
Now to get to the point, the element screw fitting screws fairly tightly into
the bottle neck, and this is sealed, strengthened with polyester resin. We have
had no problems with the element base or fitting getting hot enough, to melt or 
soften the polyethelene bottle so you should be OK?

Bill Crick
Brewius, Ergo Sum!
crick at bnr.ca 




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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 16:42:26 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Pemberton <wfp5p at tigger.itc.virginia.edu>
Subject: Decoction for weizen

Is a decoction mash required for a weizen?  I know that decoction is the
authentic method, but I'm wondering if a weizen can be made with a simple
infusion mash.  

If an infusion mash is possible, what about a single step infusion?

- -- 
Bill


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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 14:56:45 CST
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: CO2 loss during siphoning/break removal

SLGibson writes:
>I do not think siphoning would cause the lose
>of dissolved CO2, but any agitation, such as liquid splashing
>into glass on transfer would cause lose of dissolved CO2.  I
>think the partial vacuum would only cause the liquid to become
>these dense, but the change is so small it is negligible.  The
>priming sugar will replenish the lost dissolved CO2 causing
>saturation, then the undissolved CO2 will rise to the headspace
>and eventually cause a growth in pressure, but this takes time.

I think that we are in agreement (and the rest of SLGibson's
post was well thought-out also) except for the loss of dissolved
CO2.  I'll grant you that some of the CO2 comes out of solution
due to agitation, but I feel that a significant portion of the lost
CO2 is due to the pressure changes involved in siphoning.

Consider this: take a bottle of filtered beer and shake it.  Are
there bubbles?  Not really.  If you immediately open the bottle,
you will have an outrush of CO2 because the turbulence of the
beer (eddy currents?) provide nucleation sites.  But this beer
is at equilibrium till you open it, so you don't have foaming
before you open the bottle.  (There was a long thread about this
in HBD back in 1988 or 89).

Similarly in the fermenter -- the beer is at equilibrium.  It is
holding as much CO2 as it can for the given temperature and pressure
(approx 1 atmosphere plus that due to the weight of the water displaced
in the airlock, right?).  Agitation will cause some CO2 to come out
of solution but since the CO2 in solution is not supersaturated, it
has no desire to leave.  Therefore, don't underestimate the losses due
to the pressures involved in siphoning.  Remember that it's more than
just the height differences -- we're talking dynamic system here and
moving fluids mean pressure (or density) drops.  Remember how many psi
drop there is in six feet of hose on a kegging system (albeit smaller
ID hose)?

As for the incompressability, yes, you caught me.  What I should
have said was that compared to the headspace (which is a mixture of
gasses), the beer is essentially incompressable.

****
Jim writes:
>I'm all for open ferments but you have to
>remove hot break if you want to make clean and stable beers.  

I was just reading about this last night and read both DeClerck and
Malting and Brewing Science, so I'm not sure which said which, but
the bottom line was that there appeared to be no correlation between
break removal and stability.  Another factor was clarity and I believe
that there was less chill haze in the beer made with trub-free wort.

The most important factors associated with the break removal were yeast
activity and taster "preference." The yeast performed much better in
the trub-free batch, presumably (by the author) because the break
interfered with the yeast's ability to uptake some nutrients.  The
taster preference was rather nebulous.

The author did not specifically say that tasters preferred the trub-
free beer, but (paraphrasing) "...subsequent batches brewed with the
trub-free wort showed an increasing preference by the tasters..." or
something like that.  I don't know if I've written it quite right
here, but in effect, it sounded to me as if the tasters first like
the trub-full beer, but then after subsequent tastings of subsequent
batches, they began to like the trub-free beer.  Very strange.  I
read it over and over and still am not sure if I have the meaning
right.  If anyone else could read these passages and comment, I
would be interested in your opinions.

Jim's right though -- removal of break is recommended for a number of
reasons.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at pubs.att.com

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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 18:24:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Pemberton <wfp5p at tigger.itc.virginia.edu>
Subject: Re: Soda kegs...

pbabcock at e-mail.com writes:
>
>
> The pin-lock type - Coke - tend to be taller canisters. Also, the
> disconnects are much taller as well. They also appear to be more durable,
> but I can't substantiate that. The ball-lock - Pepsi - are shorter, but
> marginally wider. The disconnects do not stand as tall above the keg,
> either.

You've got that backwards.  The pin-lock are shorter and fatter -- at least
all the pin-lock that I've ever seen are shorter and fatter.

> Another point to consider is that the disconnect fittings on the pin-lock
> type require that you either buy or make a slotted socket in order to remove
> them for maintenance. The pin-lock type do not suffer from this impediment.

You also may be able to remove the fittings with a crescent wrench, it works
for me.

The other thing that I've noticed is that "other goodies" tend to be either
ball lock or easier to find in ball lock.  By "other goodies" I mean stuff
like the Carbonator or keg pressure gauges.

- -- 
Bill 

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Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 16:17:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Russ Kruska <R.KRUSKA at CGNET.COM>
Subject: RE:  Brewer's Workpapers


Can anyone give any feedback about this new shareware
product ??  It seems pretty good to me with the exception of
no documentation and no 'gravity of boil' inclusion in the IBU
calculations (ie. the total batch size is used).  The $12 price tag
certainly is right.  

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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 21:37:12 -0500
From: dludwig at ameritel.net
Subject: compressible?

>Finally, liquids are compressable.  Just ask any scuba diver.  A
>defined amount of liquid will change density but not
>concentration.  Notice that I say a defined amount, because for
>example, a cubic foot of water at the bottom of a lake would be
>more dense and more concentrated than a cubic foot at the top
>because there is simply more water molecules packed into the
>cubic foot at depth.

Yes you can compress anything but liquids such as water are essentially
incompressible. That is, if you transfer your cubic foot volume of water at
the surface of the lake to the bottom of the lake, it will still inhabit
about 1 cubic foot although at a higher static pressure. Of course gases in
the water will change things somewhat adding some compressibility to the
otherwise essentially incompressible volume of water. Not sure what this
adds to the thread. -Dave


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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 21:54:16 -0500
From: dludwig at ameritel.net
Subject: Subjects unrelated to Homebrewing

>reawakened by this.  If part of the automagical response we all get
>when posting were to include the subject lines to all the posts in
>the queue at the time the submission is added to the queue, the
>poster could judge immediately whether the post they just sent off is

Here's another solution. How about if everyone who posts, stop first and
consider whether their post is directly related to homebrewing? You'all who
post frequently know that there can be as many as 70 or 80 posts ahead of
you and it can take several days for the post to manifest itself in the HBD.
A lot of bandwidth has be devoted lately to subjects I would consider
irrelevent to homebrewing. Something to think about. Have a beer! -Dave 


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Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 22:43:34 -0500
From: jhewit at freenet.vcu.edu (Jeff Hewit)
Subject: Fuller's ESB



In response to a request for a Fuller's ESB clone, there are
some recipes for this in the Cat's Meow III, which can be
accessed through THE BREWERY on the World Wide Web
(http://alpha.rollanet.org/).  BTW, this web page is full of
good information for home brewers at all levels, and includes
numerous links to other related pages.  I highly recommend it
to those with web access.

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Hewit              Eat a live toad first thing in the morning,
Midlothian, Virginia    and nothing worse will happen to you for
                        the rest of the day.  

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1909, 12/14/95