---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  hot tea/astringency/candi sugar (Algis R Korzonas)
  Crabtree and wort aeration ("Tracy Aquilla")
  pH strips (Douglas Thomas)
  Hot Side / Cold Side (Timothy P. Ward)
  Re: Steeping Grains (HBD1931) (Michael A. Genito)
  Re: open fermenters (Jeff Frane)
  HopTech Customer Service ("Bryan Dawe -GHL")
  Oregon Brewers Fest - 96 (Glenn Heath)
  Re: Request: pH meter info. ("Anton Verhulst")
  1st wort hopping ("Tracy Aquilla")
  Stuck Fermentation ("LTC ED KOUCHERAVY, D")
  Christmas Brew (guym)
  Grain Depth (Curt Woodson)
  wetting grains before you mill them ("Keith Royster")
  Crabtree effect. RIMS. Gravity gradient. Pectin. (Hugh Graham)
  extract 1st wort/Maerzen/Crabtree v. Pasteur/yeast kickstart/HSA/keg float/#1056 temp (Algis R Korzonas)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 10 Jan 96 09:45:57 CST
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: hot tea/astringency/candi sugar

Michael & Carlyn write, quoting D. Venezia:
>If your FG is 1.015 and you increase your volume from 4.5 gal to 5.0 gal
>you will only lower your FG to 1.0135.  If you can live with that
>then do it.  Also topping off with preboiled water is a good way to
>add some hop character.  Boil the water for 10-15 minutes, throw in
>some hops, COVER, and let boil for a minute or two, turn off the
>heat and allow to cool COVERED.  When cool add liquid to keg or carboy.

Warning: boiling hops in plain water can extract quite a bit of tannin
which will add astringency, contribute to chill haze and add colour.
Wort is usually in the 5.0 to 5.5 pH range, whereas most tapwaters are
in the 7.5 to 8.0 range!

***
Sean writes:
>>1.  What can cause astringency in beer?
<snip>
>use these in the US.) Malt husk tannin contents and degree of
>polymerisation (which controls the perceived astringence) will I guess
>vary from year to year and between varieties. Darker malts give higher
>perceived astringence than pale. Hops will vary the same. Year to year

Darker malts may have higher perceived astringency, but what's important
is the amount of tannin that is extracted from the hops and/or malt husks.
Dark malts actually lower mash (and steep) pH thereby *decreasing* the
extraction of tannins.  I've never tasted an astringent stout (and I've
tasted 100+ homebrewed stouts at competitions, club meetings and conferences).

<snip>
>>   b.  Environmental conditions (mash pH, temp, salts/ions, ???)
>pH yes, temp yes, rest yes esp. water treatment. Apart from varying the
>tannin extraction some salts reinforce or subtract astringence
>perception tastewise ie more sulphate ion - 'drier' taste so astringence
>more evident. 

It's fine to say yes, but it doesn't help if you don't explain.  A pH in the
range of 5.0 to 5.5 will extract very little tannin and the tannin extraction
increases steeply as the pH rises.  A pH of less than 5.0 will extract
even less, but then you begin to have problems with break formation in the
boil.

>>   c.  Procedures (HSA, mash, sparge, decoction mash, boil, ???)
>Sorry, what's HSA.? Mash yes, more raking - more silicate + tannin
>extraction from the husks. How far the runoff is taken. 1005/6 seems to
>be the cut off point many brewers use. Sparge temp yes. Decoction I
>guess gives more astringence due to higher temps and more physical
>manipulation.

I've tasted many beers made with triple decoction mashes with no noticeable
astringency.  It all has to do with the pH.  Also, the problem with
oversparging is not with taking too much runnings, but rather as you take
runnings, you also take away the mash's ability to keep the pH low.  If you
are careful with the pH and add acid *later* in the sparge, you can
(theoretially) take runnings down to 1.00001 without astringency (but you
will have to boil a week to get those 400 gallons down to 5.  The sparge
temperature is not as big a concern regarding tannins as it is in bursting
unconverted starch granules.  HSA is Hot-Side-Aeration and, to the best of
my knowledge, it does not affect astringency, but should be avoided for other
reasons.

>>   b.  Mash (Infusion, Decoction)
>I'd go for infusion. Part of the lagering process may well be for the
>purpose of softening the astringence produced by the decoction mash. On
>the other hand it also refines other aspects of the beers character.

If pH is watched carefully, then tannin extraction will not be a problem
with either method.  Your suspicion is right -- aging will soften tannins...
it is why red wines improve with age.

>>   c.  Sparge
>Don't go higher than 168 deg f.

See above.

>>   c.  Additives, Gelatine will remove tannins.
> finings. Some Auxillary finings used in the UK to bolster the charge on
>the yeast are silicate based. So don't overfine.
>- Why not look at how tannins are naturally removed. We make several
>dark beers which start out with some astringence but these seem to
>quickly soften out to silkiness within a week or so.

I would guess that this change is not only due to tannins, but also some
other flavor compound that you are calling astringency.  Perhaps higher
alcohols? Bitterness?  I don't know how much tannin gelatin will fine-out,
but the fining that *will* remove tannins is PVPP (aka Polyclar).  It will
not remove proteins (which is a good thing) but notice that some amount
of tannins is good for preventing oxidation problems later, as the beer
ages.  Overfining with PVPP can therefore reduce shelf life.

***
Russ writes:
>Can anyone tell me a reason not to just make my own rock candy and toss that
>in my beers?  Would this be better or worse than corn sugar?  Should I make
>rock candi with corn sugar?  If I want to make dark candi sugar, do I carmelize
>it before or after I crystallize it?

No need to make it into rocks.  White candi sugar == sucrose == table sugar.
Just use it (tm)!

As for dark candi sugar, yes, just caramelize table sugar syrup and use that.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at pubs.att.com

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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 96 10:56:30 CST
From: "Tracy Aquilla" <aquilla at salus.med.uvm.edu>
Subject: Crabtree and wort aeration

In Digest #1931:
ajdel at interramp.com (A. J. deLange) says:
[snip]
>Although I almost hesitate to mention it again so soon,
>the Crabtree effect should cause the yeast to stay in diauxic mode
>until most of the glucose is consumed.

I knew this thread would have some staying power! The Crabtree effect is
what keeps yeast in fermentation mode even when O2 is available. Yeast won't
exhibit their diauxic nature until two conditions are met: very low
fermentable sugar levels and relatively high levels of available O2 and
ethanol in solution. Thus, if the brew were essentially done fermenting (no
sugar left) and O2 were introduced, they'd oxidize ethanol to acetate
(fortunately, they usually don't get the chance to do this). The reason wort
aeration (or oxygenation) is a 'good practice' in the beginning phase of
fermentation is that yeast utilize the free O2 for the de novo synthesis of
ergosterol and fatty acids used in membrane biosynthesis. This allows them
to grow faster and thus helps them get off to a faster start. The reason the
DO levels drop so fast after pitching the yeast is that they are taking the
O2 out of solution and using it for membrane biosynthesis, but not as an
electron acceptor for energy production (ie. not for respiration). When
oxygen is introduced to a fermenting culture the yeast will quickly suck it
up and grow and ferment faster, but they won't respire if there is any sugar
around. This is known as the reverse-Pasteur effect and is not well
explained yet. If things go right, the yeast never get the chance to use
ethanol as a carbon source when making beer, because by the time all the
sugar is gone there should be no free O2 in solution.

[snip]
>I think the message is that its OK to oxygenate
>in a carboy as long as some measure is taken to get the partial pressure of
>oxygen down somewhat before putting on the air lock. Even if this is not
>done I expect that enough yeast would survive to get the DO level down to a
>healthier level and the fermentation would then procede.

I don't think homebrewers can practically add too much oxygen during the
first day or so after pitching. I usually aerate with an aquarium pump and
airstone for at least two hours by threading the air hose through a carboy
cap and dangling the stone in the wort. Then I connect a small "blow-off"
hose to the other fitting on the carboy cap so the excess foam goes down the
drain instead of on the counter. When using a 6.5 gallon carboy I usually
don't get much overflow at all.

>Fermenting in a
>cornelius keg under 5 psig pure O2 pressure (I saw someone post this once)
>is probably not a good idea.

Actually, I think it might be an excellent idea, at least for the first day.


Then John Wilkinson <jwilkins at imtn.tpd.dsccc.com> says:
>The discussion of yeast activity in the presence of oxygen and glucose
>has me thoroughly confused.

Sorry about that. Hang in there! It's a complicated subject and it's taken a
great deal of effort for me to compile all this information. I'm doing my
best to explain these things and keep the thread going until I finish my
article.

>Craig Amundsen said:
>
>>If there are fermentable sugars around it makes sense to the yeast to ignore 
>>any oxygen and just make alcohol.

Actually, they don't ignore the O2, they just use it for something other
than respiration. If yeast were to respire, they'd make CO2 and water
instead of CO2 and ethanol.

>Others have stated, I think, that yeast would not respirate in the presence
>of fermentable sugars.  If not, what is the point of oxygenating the wort?

Good question; it shows you're thinking. See the above comments about this.

>I thought the yeast needed oxygen but they would certainly be in the presence
>of plenty of fermentable sugars so how does that work?  Perhaps I don't really
>understand the term "respirate".

Respiration is the production of biochemical energy (in the form of ATP)
through a process called oxidative-phosphorylation. This occurs in
mitochondria and is absolutely dependent on oxygen as the final electron
acceptor in the pathway. Brewer's yeasts tend not to do this and instead
obtain their energy (ATP) through substrate-level phosphorylation (even if
O2 is available), although this pathway is much less energy efficient in the
strict sense. Actually, Saccharomyces species are exceptional yeasts as they
represent the few species of yeast which have absolutely no requirement for
oxygen (they can grow under strict anaerobic conditions). Most other yeasts
can not grow at all without some level of available O2 (even the other
species of yeast which ferment sugars into alcohols). However, if given a
source of O2, Saccharomycetes in fermenting cultures (aerobic fermentation)
will use it to make fatty acids and sterols and hence can grow and ferment
faster than without O2.


Finally, Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com> says:
[snip]
>Jack found no difference in
>lag time with differing methods/amounts of aeration.  At the time Jack's
>results were largely berated and belittled but in light of the recent
>Crabtree discussion they make sense.

Aeration should increase the rate of growth and hence decrease lag time (see
the above discussion).

>After pitching the yeast finds itself in a glucose-rich medium and begins
>anerobic metabolism, ignoring the O2 in solution.

The yeast does use the O2, just not for respiration (see above discussion
again). 

>Until the glucose levels drop sufficiently (long
>after the lag time) the yeasties are not using O2, so it makes sense that
>aeration levels (more precisely dissoloved O2 levels) would have little or
>no effect on lag time.

Actually, the DO levels drop quite rapidly once the yeast is pitched. They
do use the O2 (but not for respiration) and it does make them grow faster. I
hope this clears things up some. Stay tuned for more later!
    Tracy in Vermont
    aquilla at salus.med.uvm.edu

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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 08:06:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Douglas Thomas <thomasd at uchastings.edu>
Subject: pH strips

I just ordered 200 strips, at 1.50 a hundred, from American Surplus and 
Scientific.  They offered both the acid-basic type, and one rated from 
pH1-pH11.  Generally, the stuff from the government is pretty decent.  If 
anyone out there gets the catalog, it is Cat# 91.  I am hoping these 
strips are as good as the last batch from them, which when tested against 
a lab pH meter, yielded results within 1/2 pH.  
This may be a good source for all the Homebrewers out there.  I know the 
catalog is sent anywhere in the U.S. for a $2 dollar annual fee, and they 
have at least one store in the Chicago area.  I will post an address 
later.  Also, they usually carry non-reactive tubing and high-end lab 
equipment at about 1/4 the price.  Watch for further postings on this 
subject.
Doug Thomas
thomasd at uchastings.edu


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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 96 09:12:52 MST
From: tward at redwood.dn.hac.com (Timothy P. Ward)
Subject: Hot Side / Cold Side

I'm getting ready to brew my first lager but I have some questions.
1) Every example I can find about pitching yeast has said >78deg C.
   But every examply has been an Ale.  Is there a perfered temp to 
   pitch lager yeast?
2) This leads me to Hot/Cold side aeration.  Where is the line between the
   two?

thanx.

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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 11:24:19 -0500
From: genitom at nyslgti.gen.ny.us (Michael A. Genito)
Subject: Re: Steeping Grains (HBD1931)

In HBD 1931, Gilad Barak wrote:
- -------------------------------------
I am an extract brewer, and I am not yet set for grain mashing/sparging etc.
I do however want to add grains to my brew and I recall seeing somehwere
that one could simply steep the grains during the extract boil (I don't see
it mentioned in TCJOHB). Could someone give me the details - how much grain
per 5 gallon batch, is crushing method crucial as it is for mashing, when do
you steep, for how long.

   gilad at orbotech.co.il

- -------------------------------------
Gilad - you can either try "partial mash" or "extract with specialty grains"
brewing.

In partial mash, you mash a limited amount of grain that can be comfortably
and easily mashed in a 16qt pot, sparging it with something as simple as a
colander and using the resultant liquid instead of water to boil with a can
of extract. Partial mashing is discussed in TCJOHB, so maybe this is not
what you were thinking of.

On the other hand, you can add specialty grains, such as crystal, chocolate,
black malt etc, to provide more character, sweetness, color or taste, which
IMHO really improves an otherwise basic extract brew. For this, you take ~1
pound of crushed specialty grain, place it in 2 gals of cold water in your
brewpot and when the water begins to boil, remove the grain. Add your
extract and continue as a normal extract brew. You can remove the grain with
a strainer, or put it in a muslin grain bag for easy removal. Some say to
remove it when the temperature is ~170F to avoid tannins leaching from the
grain, but I've never found this to be a problem. Whenever you crush the
grain, it will allow for better extraction of all the good things the grain
has to offer.

Specialty grains add a very nice touch to an otherwise ordinary brew.

Michael A. Genito, Director of Finance, Town of Ramapo
237 Route 59, Suffern, NY 10901
TEL:  914-357-5100 x214   FAX: 914-357-7209


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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 08:22:48 -0800
From: jfrane at teleport.com (Jeff Frane)
Subject: Re: open fermenters

>From: Tim Laatsch <LAATSCH at kbs.msu.edu>
>   
>What exactly defines "open" fermentation?  Is it still considered "open" if I 
>place the lid loosely on the fermenter?  (Yes, according to Jim B.)  What 
>about covering with saran wrap like some micros do---Bell's, e.g.?  I assume 
>that the "open" period should begin as soon as a krauesen layer covers the 
>surface of the fermenting beer and should last until the foam begins to 
>subside and break apart.  Any dissention yet?
> 
>Some of the true British-style open fermentations I've seen (in pictures) use 
>a recirculating system, in which fermenting beer from the bottom of the 
>fermenter is redistributed to the top of the fermenter (spraying or stream).  
>What is the purpose of recirculation:  rousing, aeration, mixing, all of the 
>above?  

Since I started doing open fermentations (encouraged by Jim Busch),
I have not looked back.  Blow-off hoses are gone forever.

I regularly ferment in a converted keg/kettle, doing ten gallon
batches that finish out in a matter of days.  It's typical that
a 1.045 beer will be coming out of the tap ten days after brew
day.  I attribute this to two factors: yeast selection and the
tremendous improvement in aeration that I got when I switched to
open fermenters.

I have no reason to recirculate, and suspect that on a 10-gallon
scale there is no real point.  If I was brewing with this very
flocculant strain (Wyeast 1968) in a high-gravity beer, I would
take the opportunity to rouse the yeast to guarantee completion,
but otherwise there doesn't seem to be any reason at all.

Yes, I leave the lid on the kettle, although it doesn't fit very
well.  The point is to make sure that nothing falls into the
wort, especially before the krausen forms.  

I have no hard evidence for this, but I believe that the beer
is better, because the yeast is working under conditions that 
are most "natural" for the strain -- including fermenter
geometry, exposure to atmosphere, whatever.  I'm afraid I'm
not enough of a scientist to worry about they why's, so much
as someone interested in the result.

I skim the early, brown krausen when it rises and it is 
quickly replaced by new, clean krausen.  I love to watch it
grow, especially this strain, and watch it goes through very
clear stages.  The most dramatic is high krausen, when the
head is very dense, rising in high peaks.  Eventually, the
peaks fall, and are replaced by large bubbles -- that's the
time to rack.

With this strain, primary fermentation takes 3-4 days, maximum,
and then I allow another 3-4 days or so for the final few points
of gravity to drop.  I can keg it, carbonate it, and drink it
the next day, although the total time is usually 10 days.

- --Jeff Frane


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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 09:46:41 -0700
From: "Bryan Dawe -GHL" <bryand at larry.fc.hp.com>
Subject: HopTech Customer Service


Hello people,

A good thing happened to me recently.  I thought I might pass it
along.

I order my hops from HopTech.  Their quality/price meets my
needs, and I have gotten into the habit of calling them.

I recently placed and received an order from HopTech.  It
appeared that the box containing the packages of hops was packed
a little tighter than appropriate, and two of the packages
ruptured in transit.  One package dumped about half its contents
and the other about a quarter.  The truth is, I was able to
recover most of the spilled hops, and repackaging them in CO2
purged mason jars is no big deal.  But, they were of different
varieties and I could not separate them.  I tend to be kind of
picky about the hops used in my beers, so I was bummed.  I doubt
those hops will be used.

I called HopTech and explained that two packages ruptured.
Immediately I was asked which varieties needed to be replaced.
The person at HopTech stated that the replacement packages would
be shipped the next day.  I received the two packages one week
after my call, typical shipment time for where I live.

I did not need to explain why I was upset.  My experience was an
excellent example of "no questions asked," first class, customer
service.  I am impressed.  People tend to be pretty quick to
broadcast examples of poor customer service.  I felt I should
broadcast this very positive experience.

My reasons for calling HopTech go a bit beyond habit now.

I have no affiliation with HopTech . . . you know the mantra.

HopTech may be reached at 1-800-DRY-HOPS (379-4677).

Regards,
Bryan P. Dawe

- -- 
Bryan P. Dawe
Hewlett-Packard Company             Workstation Systems Group
Workstation Systems Division        e-mail: bryand at fc.hp.com
Graphics Hardware Lab               FAX: (970) 229-6858
3404 East Harmony Road  MS-73
Fort Collins, CO  80525-9599

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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 8:56:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Heath <GLENNH at merix.com>
Subject: Oregon Brewers Fest - 96

My sources tell me that this year's Oregon Brewers Fest will be
the last weekend in July.

Oh, in case anyone is curious -- it will be raining that weekend.

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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 96 11:51:53 -0500
From: "Anton Verhulst" <verhulst at zk3.dec.com>
Subject: Re: Request: pH meter info.



> Howdy - trying to keep my brewing on the scientific side 
> I decided to get a pH meter. I tried paper strips and they 
> seem notoriously inaccurate - I knew only that I was not 
> totally off (pH = 9 etc).

I've spent about 10 years in clinical chemistry labs and have more than
a little experience with pH meters.  IMHO, they're not worth it for the
average home brewer.

They need constant calibration, which means that you need to buy reference
buffer solutions.  The electrodes will dry out, if not maintained properly,
and the typical home brewer will not maintain them properly.  More importantly,
once you've used the meter a few times you'll understand your brewing
operation and you'll not need the meter again - unless you change your water 
supply, or something like that.

Your experience with pH papers is bad because you used the wrong (cheap)
papers, I suspect.   Good "papers" can be had.  These are really
plastic strips with the reagent at the tip.  They're more expensive
than the lousy all paper strips - about $14.95/100 but worth it.
Best of all, they also work for dark beers such as porters and stouts.
These pH strips can be had, mail order, from the Brewers Resource 
at 1-800-827-3983.  I have no affiliation with BR, other than as a satisfied
customer.


- --Tony V

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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 96 12:19:25 CST
From: "Tracy Aquilla" <aquilla at salus.med.uvm.edu>
Subject: 1st wort hopping

In Digest #1931:
gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix) says:
>
>Late kettle hopping will lead to much higher iso-co-humulone
>fractions than other hopping procedures.

Considering that I'm planning to make a Bohemian-style Pilsner very soon, I
have enjoyed this thread and appreciate having this information just in
time. I'm definitely going to try this approach to hopping. Is there really
enough time for significant isomerization of cohumulone to occur with late
additions? How late are we talking here anyway (I figured last ten minutes
or so)?
    Tracy in Vermont
    aquilla at salus.med.uvm.edu

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Date:         Wed, 10 Jan 96  12:45:38 EST
From: "LTC ED KOUCHERAVY, D" <KOUCHERA at PENTAGON-HQDADSS.ARMY.MIL>
Subject:      Stuck Fermentation

Subject: Stuck Fermentation

Any help out there? I brewed an extract batch of "Toad Spit Stout" per "The
New Complete Joy of Hombrewing." Among other problems, I looked away and had a
minor boil-over (is it ever minor?). Anyway, probably lost about a quart of my
wort. When I put it in my primary I was at an OG of 1.042 -- a bit low, but
considering the boilover, not unexpected. I pitched my yeast (Edme dry ale)
and watched. Had vigorous fermentation evident after 24 hours, which continued
for about 3 days. Seemed pretty normal, given my 6 or so batches worth of
experience. After 7 days, I transferred to a secondary and took a spec. grav.
- -- 1.028! Seemed pretty high (FG should end up around 1.016 from an original
of 1.052 -- I'm working from memory here).Could it be that the ambient
temperature is too low ( I keep the house at 68F during the day, but down to
60F at night)? When I took the SG reading the wort was at about 65F.  Right now
it sits in the secondary with no apparent activity (not even any bubbles on
the top).Doesn't look like there's much further fermentation to go.  Should I
re-pitch? Should I try to warm the secondary? Or should I just go and bottle?
Replies to my e-mail would be fine.  I'll summarize for the general population.

********************************************
*      If you think it's bad now,*
*  Just wait a while -- It will get worse! *
********************************************

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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 96 15:06:41 MDT
From: guym at Exabyte.COM
Subject: Christmas Brew

  I would like to submit my 1995 Christmas brew recipe to the digest.  It was 
  exquisite!  I am already thinking about next year's holiday concoction.  
  This beer was brewed on July 1, 1995 as a 10 gallon batch.  I split it into 
  two 5 gallon batches and spiced one of them.  The unspiced stout was kegged 
  on 7-8-95 and the Christmas brew was bottled on 7-22-95.
  
               Loch Norman Stout/1995 Jingle Ale
  
  14 pounds English Pale Ale malt
  2 pounds English Crystal, 80 L
  2 pounds English Roasted Barley
  1 pound Flaked Barley
  1 pound English Chocolate Malt
  
  0.5 ounce Nugget whole hop flowers (14.4 AAU) 90 minutes
  1.0 ounce Kent Goldings hop flowers (4.5 AAU) 60 minutes
  1.0 ounce Tettnanger hop flowers (2.5 AAU) 20 minutes
  
  WYeast 1084 Irish (stout)
  WYeast 1056 American Ale (Jingle Ale)
  
  OG. 1.060
  FG. 1.022
  
  Mashed at 155 F for 60 minutes, mashout at 168 F for 10 minutes.  Boiled 
  for 90 minutes, force cooled through counterflow chiller, and split into 
  two 7 gallon glass primary fermentors.  Primary ferment was 7 days after 
  which the stout was racked to a keg for secondary fermentation/natural 
  carbonation.  The Jingle Ale sat in the secondary for 15 days before 
  bottling.  At bottling, a spice tea was made by simmering 12" cracked 
  cinnamon sticks, 2 oz. freshly peeled and grated ginger root, and 3 fl. oz. 
  clover honey (for priming) in 1 qt water for 30 minutes.  This was cooled 
  and poured through a strainer into the bottling bucket along with 2 oz. 
  HopTech Blueberry flavoring.  The beer was siphoned in and bottled in 22 
  oz. bottles.  Fermentation and bottle conditioning was done at 68 F.  On 
  7-30-95, the Jingle Ale was moved to my beer freezer and stored at 35 F 
  until I began drinking it at Thanksgiving.  This beer was great!  The stout 
  was smooth and didn't last long.  The Christmas beer had a wonderful 
  blueberry aroma and flavor accented by the cinnamon with just a hint of 
  ginger.  This is my best holiday beer to date.
  
  Just in case anyone wants to get an early start on next year's holiday 
  brew.
  
  --
  Guy McConnell /// Huntersville, NC /// guym at exabyte.com
  "And the beer I had for breakfast wasn't bad, so I had one for dessert..."


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Date: 10 Jan 96 15:35:45 EST
From: Curt Woodson <cdwood at lexmark.com>
Subject: Grain Depth

Greeting and Happy New Year from snow covered Kentucky!

Well I have been a lurker of the HBD for over a year now and have gained a lot 
of useful info along the way. A MILLION THANKS to everyone!  Currently I brew 
Extract + Speciality Grains batches. However, I'm currently building a 3 tier 
tower system to start brewing all-grain soon.  

I built myself a grain mill last year after studying a JSP MaltMill(tm), mine 
has 2- 3.5" x 5" steel rollers mounted between 2- 12" x10" x  3/4" Oak drawer 
fronts (sideplates) ,  1/4" plywood sits between the sides forming a 'V' which 
is the input hopper. It will hold 3-4 lbs of grain. The rollers are on 3/4" 
shafts running thru ball bearing flanges bolted to the sideplates.  A set of 
homemade gears couple the rollers to each other. A hand crank from a sausage 
grinder is used to turn the rollers. The crush looks perfect, with hulls 
intact. It mounts on to my workbench in the basement. Output falls into a 1.5 
gal plastic bucket mounted under the rollers. See lousy ascii drawing below.
__________
|\                    /|
|  \                /  |
|     \          /     |
|        \     /       |
|___ O O __ |
        

Now for a few questions: 
1) What is the average depth of the grain in a round 10 gal Gott coller?  I 
plan to put a thermometer in the side and want to target the middle of the mash.

2) Where does one find Food Grade silicone sealant (to seal the thermometer)? 
Will Aquarium sealer work?

3) Where does one find these Ring Burners that have been talked about in the 
HBD? 
 Will they boil 12 gal of wort in a reasonable amount of time or should I just 
go out and buy a CajanKooker?

My 3 teir system is being built using the Best of the HBD ideas IMHO. It has a 
1/2 barrel (with a thermometer mounted in the side) for the hot water, gravity 
feeding into a round 10 gal Gott with: a) a slotted copper sparge water 
manifold, b) a slotted copper manifold for sparging in the bottom, c) a ice 
cream maker motor driving a stirring paddle (made from the dip tube from a 1/2 
keg), d) Steam infusion thru the bottom manifold, and e) a thermometer mounted 
in the side of the Gott. This will feed in to another 1/2 barrel for the boil. 
All of the above ideas were found here in the HBD! 

Thanks to the many whose ideas I have used! My beer is all the better for it!!

My your next batch be your BEST!!
Curt Woodson  (cdwood at lexmark.com)

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Date:          Wed, 10 Jan 1996 15:59:42 +0500 ET
From: "Keith Royster" <N1EA471 at mro.ehnr.state.nc.us>
Subject:       wetting grains before you mill them

In the most recent issue of Brewing Techniques there is an article about
controlling the color of your beer.  One of the things that this article
mentions as a contributing factor to color is the quality of the crush of
your grains.  Apparently, a finer crush will leach more tannins which will
darken your beer.  It suggests spraying the grain with an amount of water
equal to 1-2% of the grains weight and letting it sit for 15-20 minutes
before you mill as a way of controlling the crush.  This will soften the
grain husks making them less brittle.  As this sounds like a good way of
controlling mill quality regardless of your concern for color, I was
wondering if anyone else out there does this and if they have any comments
on the process.  It seems that if you were not careful you could soften
the grain too much, and end up just mashing the grains in your mill
(instead of your mash tun!). 

On another note, our homebrew club, the Carolina BrewMasters, has finally 
found a new and hopefully permanent home.  As some of you may remember it 
had been running "illegally" on my office computer unbeknownst (sp?) to my 
superviser.  Any way, the new address is:

http://www.wp.com/ at your.service/cbm/brewmast.htm

Update your list of favorite sites! =)

 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Keith Royster 
  email: KRoyster at mro.ehnr.state.nc.us
  etalk: KRoyster at ws21.mro.ehnr.state.nc.us (WinTalk.exe=freeware)
    web: http://www.wp.com/ at your.service/kroyster.htm    <<<NEW>>> 

NC DEHNR - Mooresville, NC, USA - Air Quality Engineer I / Asst. LAN Mgr.
  web: http://mro.ehnr.state.nc.us/aq/ 
  Voice: (704) 663-1699 x252     Fax: (704) 663-6040 

 at your.service - The Affordable Web Page Provider
  web: http://www.wp.com/ at your.service/
  Voice & Fax: (704) 663-1098
 

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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 14:23:20 -0700 (MST)
From: Hugh Graham <hugh at lamar.ColoState.EDU>
Subject: Crabtree effect. RIMS. Gravity gradient. Pectin.


In HBD #1931:.. .  

Domenick Venezia writes:

Subject: Crabtree and Schmidling
                               
>  After pitching the yeast finds
> itself in a glucose-rich medium and begins anerobic metabolism, ignoring
> the O2 in solution.  Until the glucose levels drop sufficiently (long
> after the lag time) the yeasties are not using O2, so it makes sense that
> aeration levels (more precisely dissoloved O2 levels) would have little 
> or no effect on lag time.

Studies in our lab indicate that S. cerevisae do use oxygen when subject
to the Crabtree effect.  They make a cytochrome (oxygen transport related
enzyme) during glucose repressed growth that is not found during anaerobic
fermentation.  Furthermore, dissolved oxygen measurements indicate that
oxygen _is_ being consumed while glucose levels are high and ethanol is
being produced (though not as much as in non-repressed growth). Typically
the biosmass yield (weight of bugs per weight of glucose) drops from about
50% to 15-20% under catabolite repression.  These experiments do not bear
a close relationship to conditions found in brewing but they indicate that
Crabtree effect fermentation is somewhat different from anaerobic
fermentation.  Anybody want a reference?  Tracy? 

> I am looking forward to Tracy's paper.

Me too.  Where will we find it?

In any case, oxygenation/aeration is performed to make the yeast happy
(plentiful in sterols etc.) so that full attenuation occurs. It seems to
me that any link with lag time is inferred by the assumption propagated in
the homebrew literature that yeast reproduction only occurs in the
presence of oxygen.  (More O2 => more propagation => more yeasties 
=> shorter lag). 

Which, as this thread has mentioned, is not the exact truth. 

- -----------------------------

Paul Fisher writes:
Subject: Gravity Gradient

> As a very simplistic chilling method, I have been
> throwing blocks of pre-boiled ice into my wort.  
> [snip] I ran into a situation where the top of my fermenter
> (6 gal. plastic bucket) was 60 degrees while the very bottom
> was about 90-95.  Not wanting to stir up the batch, I
> pitched and have had no apparant problems.

It seems to me that stirring up the batch is essential.
  a) to avoid this problem
  b) to aerate the wort (which can only be done at low temperatures)

Then the density gradient would be gone.  Hurrah.

(The gravity gradient is a result of the earth's mass etc etc :))

- ------------------------

David Hill writes:
Subject: RIMS

> My brew mate and I are considering recirculating the mash through a 
> copper coin immersed in our sparge water heater.  
That's what we do. (Coil, right?) 
> The idea is to keep the sparge water at near boiling and recirculate the 
> mash liquor through it as required to elevate the mash temp. 
Or just to keep an Infusion Mash at the correct temperature during  
Recycling. 

> Can anyone see any obvious flaws in this idea.?
Works for me.

> Would it take too long to transfer sufficient heat?
> Wild guesses at diameter and length of copper needed to be immersed in the
> hot water to achieve adequate heat transfer would be appreciated.

We heat the mash water up in advance then sometimes use the heat input to
achieve a mash out.  65 to 77 C takes 20 minutes with part of the lag
caused by the time it takes to heat up the external water bath.  If the
water bath is at 80 C during recycling to temperature in a double bucket
mash/lauter system will be around 67 C for about 10 lbs grain.  This is
using a 25 ft 3/8 in diameter copper coil in ~5 gals of water.  Our larger 
batches are mash/lautered in a picnic cooler which, being better insulated,
actually needs less heat input to maintain the mash temperature.  So your
mileage or kilometrage will most definately vary.  You obviously need a 
suitable (high temp, food grade etc.) pump too.  And temperature losses 
in connection tubing will vary with the flowrate that you choose.   

Unlike the traditional RIMS system, temperature controllers and 
scorching problems are avoided, although you will need to baby
sit the setup until you know how stable everything can be (due
to the high heat capacity, relatively low temperature, heat source
i.e. the water bath).

- ---------------------
Pectin:

Will _any_ protease rid my melomel of a potential pectin haze?
Probably not I assume.
What's that enzyme used for zapping chill haze?  Will that work?
The name escapes me but I know I've got some somewhere.. .   .

Hugh
- ---------------------

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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 96 15:39:05 CST
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: extract 1st wort/Maerzen/Crabtree v. Pasteur/yeast kickstart/HSA/keg float/#1056 temp

Ken writes:
>Does this mean toss the hops into an empty boiler, then sparge wort into the
>kettle & commence boiling as usual?  And for an extract brewer, would this
>mean putting hops in the kettle, then adding cold water & begin heating?  If
>so, are the supposed benefits acheived by this "cold soak"?

No, the latter won't work for two reasons.  Firstly, George Fix wrote that
the aromatic hop components complexed with some malt compounds so you need
to have the malt extract already dissolved in the water.  Secondly, the pH
of your water will probably extract considerable tannins out of your hops.
It might work if you dissolved the extract into 150F water (which is the
temperature at which you might expect the first runnings to be) and put the
hops into that.

***
Denis writes:
>While I'm at it, what's the difference between a Maerzen and an
>Oktoberfest? The way I see it, the only difference is the season that it's
>traditionally brewed in!

This is a common misconception.  Maerzen is brewed in March for Sept/Oct
consumption (during Oktoberfest).  Even Brewers Publications thinks that
Oktoberfests are brewed in October -- that's why they put the Oktoberfest
book on sale in September.  They are the same style -- just two different
names.

***
Steve Alexander and Tracy Aquilla have been discussing Crabtree effect

It is also important to consider the contribution of the Pasteur effect.
While the Crabtree effect is the yeast foresaking oxygen to ferment
anaerobically in the presence of too much glucose, the Pasteur effect is
the yeast foresaking glucose to respire in the presence of a lot of oxygen.
So, if we have enough oxygen in the wort, the yeast will respire *despite*
the high glucose levels.  Again, the importance of aeration becomes apparent.

Thanks to George Fix for explaining the above to me offline a couple of
years ago.

***
SSLOFL writes (and from context, I assume that Wyeast #1028 London was used):
>I racked to the secondary in order to aerate the
>yeast (and hopefully kick-start the little suckers!), and moved the
>secondary to a 65-68 F location.  No change occured in the s.g. after
>a week or so in the secondary.

You don't want to aerate after the fermentation begins.  If any additional
fermentation took place it was hopefully due to rousing the yeast and not
due to aeration.  Aeration after fermentation begins will increase the
production of diacetyl and can lead to high levels of aldehydes in the
finished beer.

***
Darrin writes:
>Anyway, my question is: if my wort is still very hot (say 130 deg.) when I
>pour it into the fermenter, will I get HSA? With my techinque, what should I
>do to avoid HSA? 

Yes, but less than at 212F.  To minimize HSA, cool before aerating or
splashing the wort.  Faster chilling will precipitate more cold break,
but won't make a BIG difference in your finished beer.  Minimizing HSA will.

***
Ken writes:
>The idea of the tubing exiting from the bottom of the cork in the previous
>design was to help stabilize the cork in the "upright" orientation.

At issue here is a way to keep a hose just below the level of the beer
in a keg.  Why not:


                                         -------
                                         |     |
                                         |float|
                                         |     |
                                         -------
                                            |
                                            |
          ~---------------------------------k--
   <- to dip tube         flexible hose     k
          ~---------------------------------k--
                                            |
                                            |
                                            |
                                          WWWWW

The vertical line is fishing line and the k's are a slipknot.  The WWWWW is
some kind of weight.  What's important is that everything be food-grade and
easy to sanitize without any nooks, crannies or scratches that could harbour
bacteria (perhaps closed-cell polystyrene and a stainless steel washer?).
Heck, even the knot could be a potential problem!

***
Jim writes:
>I agree with 1-3, but Ive used this yeast [Wyeast #1056, American Ale]
>an awful lot and never had
>troubles with fermenting between 60-65F.  In my opinion, a significant
>factor in healthy fermentation is the generation of the yeast pitched.
>I get my yeast from a local micro, and thus it is thick/dense slurry
>that has been around the block a few times in the fermentation game. 

I feel that the volume yeast you pitch is more important.  I think that
if you pitch a sizeable population of any yeast, they will be able to
ferment at much colder temperatures than if they have to reproduce a lot.
Jim's yeast is probably generating a considerable amount of heat in a few
hours.  I've had *blowoff* in 4 hours when pitching 8 ounces of *slurry*.
On the other hand, I had a batch made from a 16 ounce starter of #1056
never get over 1 bubble every 15 seconds and take three weeks to ferment-
out because it was at 61F.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at pubs.att.com

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