---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Who is Crabtree? (Jeff Renner)
  Adjusting hyrdrometer readings ("Dr. John Pratte")
  Open fermentation in boiling kettle (Lee Bollard)
  open ferments/skimming (Dan McConnell)
  Re: Plastic Containers ("John Lifer, Jr.")
  DeClerck on skimming (Dan McConnell)
  Rye Beer (MHMILLER)
  Re:  newbie kegger, Frozen Wyeast packs ("R. Keith Frank")
  Pierre Rajotte's Systems (Nir Navot)
  Wort Aeration, rev. 4 (C.D. Pritchard)
  DME (Greg Holton)
  got there (Charles Webster)
  Brewing in Japan (Chris Green)
  super-hydrometer (Robert Rogers)
  Brewing with maple sap (Tim & Marilyn)
  stuck fermentation (?) (Gilad Barak)
  Glycerol/Glycerin(e) (John W. Braue, III)
  PLASTIC CONTAINERS (DONBREW)
  Lager yeast with Ale recipe? (Russ Snyder)
  soldering copper manifold (PatrickM50)
  War of The Worts Competition (Alan Folsom)
  Yeast in stabs (Pierre Jelenc)
  Bottle filling/hazes & heads (Charlie Scandrett)
  pitching yeast ("Dulisse, Brian")
  Re: Open Fermenters ("DAVID LEWIS")
  when to pitch, open fermentations ("Tracy Aquilla")
  RE: care and feeding of corney keg? (Brad Roach)
  RE: HB1941(Pat Babcock)/Portland Beer Places ("Olson, Greger J - CI/911-2")
  Hydrometer Altitude Corrections (Kelly Jones    Intel Portland Technology Development)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sat, 20 Jan 96 12:44:38 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Who is Crabtree?

I've certainly been enjoying the molecular biology lessons - thanks AJ
and Tracy.  It's been 20+ years since I had physiology - and that was
vertebrate phys., so it's taken some rust removal to bend my brain
around this stuff.  But my previous life as a history teacher leads me
to another question - who was/is Crabtree of the Crabtree Effect?  I
asssumed that he (possibly she) was old and dead like Pasteur, but in
February, 1996 Discover Magazine, there is an article about the
cellular/molecular biology of immunity, featuring the research of, among
others, Jerry Crabtree of Stanford.  With Crabtree being a fairly
uncommon name, I wondered if these were one and the same.  An now, in
the new issue of Science, there is an article about the breakdown of
Freon and other CFCs utilizing sodium oxalate, by Yale scientist Robert
H. Crabtree.  This isn't cellular biology, so this is probably not our
Crabtree, but what is this?  A big family of chemists?

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu


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Date:          Sat, 20 Jan 1996 12:58:32 EST
From: "Dr. John Pratte" <PRATTE at GG.csc.peachnet.edu>
Subject:       Adjusting hyrdrometer readings

In response to Roy Ogburn's question about adjusting hydrometer 
readings for high altitude, the answer is:

NO

Remember, the air pressure inside of the hydrometer has nothing to do 
with how a hydrometer works.  Using Archimedes principle, we know 
that the hydrometer will keep sinking into the liquid until it has 
displaced a volume of liquid that is equal in mass to its own.  The 
more dense the liquid, the less volume of liquid that has to be 
displaced and, therefore, the higher the hydrometer sits in the 
liquid.  Therefore, the pressure of the air in the hydrometer does 
not matter.  All that matters is that its mass remain constant, which 
it does since it is sealed.

John

________________________________________________________________
Dr. John M. Pratte                 pratte at gg.csc.peachnet.edu
Clayton State College              Office (770)961-3674
Morrow, GA  30260                  Fax (770)961-3700
http://www.csc.peachnet.edu/Schools/AS/NatSci/jmp1.html
________________________________________________________________


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Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 11:44:37 -0800
From: Lee Bollard <leeb at iea.com>
Subject: Open fermentation in boiling kettle

Open ferment in the boiling kettle?  Why rack?

I use hop bags, so I don't need to rack to eliminate hops.  
Can I do the primary ferment in the boiling kettle after 
removing the hop bags, cooling the wort, and pitching?  Any 
disadvantages to this method?

Since I missed the beginning of the open fermentation 
discussion, I'd appreciate pointers to which hbd(s) contained 
the technique and benefits.

- -- 						     --
    ---------- Lee Bollard  leeb at iea.com ----------



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Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 15:18:57 -0500
From: danmcc at umich.edu (Dan McConnell)
Subject: open ferments/skimming

From: Tim Laatsch <LAATSCH at kbs.msu.edu>

>.............As per recent suggestions, I skimmed the trub off
>the krauesen layer once per day until no further trub appeared (only 2
>days).  Being unafraid of anything beer and in the quest for knowledge, I
>tasted some of the trub-laden foam.  It was the most intensely bitter
>substance I've ever had the displeasure of tasting.  That started me
>thinking...how does skimming impact hop bitterness levels in the finished
>beer?  Logic would seem to say that bitterness would be decreased.  I've been
>very pleased with the previous bitterness levels in my beer, but my former
>method of fermentation allowed the trub to fall back in the beer.  Will I
>have to adjust IBUs in the future to compensate for the decrease in
>bitterness related to skimming??

Skimming the trub laden foam serves much the same purpose as allowing the
fermentation to "blow off".  Have you ever tasted the material that comes
out the blow-off?  Or the material that sticks to the upper sholders of a
carboy?  It is the same intensly bitter material.  The harsh bitterness is
something that you don't want.

So Tim, did you save and repitch the yeast that rose after the trub?

 From:   Tracy in Vermont    <aquilla at salus.med.uvm.edu>

>Here's another controversy I just can't pass up (I'm gearing up to review
>the literature on this topic too). Without getting into the details of when
>glycogen levels are highest (yet), I think the best time to pitch is when
>the culture is at or near the peak of the log phase (after high kraeusen,
>but before activity slows),

Theoretical is fine, but if peak of the log phase occurs at 10 AM on a
Wednesday, I'm sorry, but  I  have commitments until  6PM.  Oops, I missed
it!  Is my beer ruined?

I think that it is counter productive to worry too much about theoretical
details when practical details rule our lives.  In any case I think, and
agree 100% with Tracy, that the PRIMARY concern is ....

>assuming one has grown a large enough starter to
>begin with. What's much more critical is the SIZE of the culture (i.e.
>number of cells). Pitching a 'big enough' starter will help to overcome many
>common problems and it's generally difficult for homebrewers to overpitch.

Absolutely!  The one with the biggest starter wins.

Now consider this:  Breweries that repitch their cultures (all) over many
generations, consequently ALWAYS  use yeast that has completed its work.
Since the fermentation is complete, this is certainly WELL past the log
growth phase.

From: Scottie617 at aol.com

>All of this talk about open and almost open and closed fermentation has me
>confused.  Could somebody please explain to me the advantages of open
>fermentation versus blowoff?

To which Jack Replied:
*Glad you asked.  This is another one of those areas where my opinion is
*less than meek and equivocal.  Blowoff is probably the silliest procedure
*that has ever been developed for making beer.  I am hard pressed to think
*of even a single redeeming feature.  The advantages of "open" fermentation
*are as myriad as those for blowoff are lacking.

I have to agree with Jack here.  I think that blow-off is a step back.
About the only advantage is that it is good for those that can not check or
manage their fermentations frequently.  Does anyone know who first
published the blowoff technique?  It is not in the old British Homebrewing
books and seems to have started in the US homebrew literature.

Another nugget from Jack:

*How bout a carboy without an airlock?

I'd call it silly (and hopefully only an exercise in semantics).

Scott also asked about open fermentation and yeast collection in a post
that was sent to me (and HBD) but has not yet hit the HBD.  Apparently the
time lag for posting has you bugged.  Nobody is ignoring you.  This time of
the year you must be patient for answers due to the backlog.

Jim Busch has written an excellent article on open fermentation that
appeared in Zymurgy (?) a few months back.  It can be downloaded from the
YCKCo home page (see URL below).  Basically the process is simple:

1-Skim the dark trub laden material during the first few days.
2-When the clean yeast rises (about day 3-4) skim the yeast and save it in
a sanitized container.
3-Use the saved yeast in your next batch.  Brew soon (within a week or
so-depending on the strain).

Now YOU have the biggest starter.

Dan McC
YCKCo Now Online at        http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/yckco.htm





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Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 16:49:21 -0600
From: "John Lifer, Jr." <jliferjr at felix.TECLink.Net>
Subject: Re: Plastic Containers


Randy Wrote:

>Subject: PLASTIC CONTAINERS
>Will the heat from this melt the plastic?

Just depends on the plastic.  Polyethylene will deform  at about 180 to 190f
Polypropylene will make it above 212.  

>Also, the container is somewhat square in shape, the plastic is slightly 
>softer (but thicker) than food-grade pickle-bucket plastic, and 
>originally held solvent but has since been used to store gasoline. Before 
>I make big plans to use the container to heat mash water, does anyone know 
>how I could remove all traces of gasoline from the plastic? I suspect that 
>I might get lots of "don't do it!" replies, but I thought I'd ask. The 
>flat sides of the container would seem to be ideal for mounting heating 
>elements, drains, etc. but I'll find something else if I have to.

JUST Don't do IT!  besides getting bad beer, You will possibly get very sick
from drinking gasoline.  The plastic has a tendancy to absorb some of just
about whatever it holds.  If you  or anyone else for that matter, uses USED
plastic containers, make darn sure that the container is food grade.  It
should have NSF, FDA or some other statement signifying that it is food
grade.  In addition make sure that it truly has held only food/ foodstuffs.
Stay away from colored containers unless it is food grade.  Some older
containers may contain heavy metal pigments which can leach out.  
BTW, I use plastic exclusively as the company I work for manufactures food
containers.  This is not an advertisement, no  trade names being used.  It
is just the start of the PLASTIC FAQ.  Just what you need to safely brew
your very best HB in.( Ties in nicely with the open fermentation thread
don't you'all think?   I'll answer any question you want to throw this way
until I have the FAQ done.

Still illegal in Mississippi
John and Judy in Mississippi


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Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 23:56:46 -0500
From: danmcc at umich.edu (Dan McConnell)
Subject: DeClerck on skimming

From: Tim Laatsch <LAATSCH at kbs.msu.edu>

>.............As per recent suggestions, I skimmed the trub off
>the krauesen layer once per day until no further trub appeared (only 2
>days).  Being unafraid of anything beer and in the quest for knowledge, I
>tasted some of the trub-laden foam.  It was the most intensely bitter
>substance I've ever had the displeasure of tasting.

Now that I have taken some time to look it up, here is the real deal.

Ref: De Clerck, A Textbook of Brewing, 1957, Vol 1, pp 401 (The text is
his, any typos are mine):

"Hop resins are largely eliminated during fermentation by the fall in pH as
well as by adsorption on the surface of the yeast cells and by coagulation
in the head.  There is, therefore, a considerable dimunition in bitter
flavour.

The eliminted bitter material is found partly in the head which should be
skimmed off carefully to avoid adding sharpness to the beer.  In top
fermentations, the resins are found mixed with the yeast which has risen to
the surface, and are removed along with the yeast at skimming.  So as not
to include too much bitter material in the yeast, the first heads formed on
the surface before purging of the yeast are skimmed off.  These are
sometimes called 'bitters'".

DanMcC



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Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 14:23:53 -0500
From: MHMILLER at aol.com
Subject: Rye Beer

I'm looking for a rye beer recipe using extract, if that's possible.  None in
SUDS imports.  Can anyone help me out?   Also looking for your favorite
porter (extract) recipes too.  Please email me too.  Thanks
Mark Miller, Seattle

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Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 13:32:58 -0600
From: "R. Keith Frank" <kfrank at brazosport.cc.tx.us>
Subject: Re:  newbie kegger, Frozen Wyeast packs

>From: aflinsch at njebmail.attmail.com (Flinsch, Alex)
>Subject: newbie kegger

>..... Is the gauge temp sensitive (reading lower after being chilled overnight)

I don't think so.

>DIHAGL/IMTE (do I have a gas leak/is my tank empty) ?

Sounds like a leak to me.  I use my system a lot and the CO2 lasts a long time.

>When force carbonating should I leave the gas on, or hit it with pressure 
>then turn it off.

Either way.  You were right to cool the water first, that makes a huge
difference.
Agitation also helps a great deal.  It really speeds up the dissolution of CO2.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -------------------
>From: "Larry.Carden" <Larry.Carden at pscmail.ps.net>
>Subject: Frozen Wyeast packs
>
>     I followed with interest the recent thread about preserving yeast in 
>     the freezer with glycogen. Anyone know if Wyeast adds such a substance 
>     to their liquid yeast packs? Or whether Wyeast is still viable after 
>     freezing or being slightly frozen?

For what it's worth - I accidently froze a Wyeast pack once but it seemed to
come back to like just fine.

Keith Frank                                        Lake Jackson, TX
                 kfrank at brazosport.cc.tx.us
 "They that drink beer will think beer"  - Washington Irving


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Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 21:44:46 +0200 (IST)
From: diagen at netvision.net.il (Nir Navot)
Subject: Pierre Rajotte's Systems

I am looking for someone who is using a Pierre Rajotte mini brewery and for
Rajotte's fax/phone/address. Thanks in advance. Nir.



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Date: Sun, 21 Jan 96 16:10 EST
From: cdp at chattanooga.net (C.D. Pritchard)
Subject: Wort Aeration, rev. 4

There's been several posts about using racking holes/air holes for aerating
wort. I though add a bit to the thread:

A drawback to the racking hose/holes is that the air it sucks in may cause
an infected brew,  particuliarly if you brew outdoors as I do.  OTHO, I've
done it a couple of times- w/o any infections I could detect.  I now use an
air pump with an in-line sterile filter.  I pipe this via a check valve
(don't omit it- pet stores sell them) and an aquarium type needle to the top
outlet of a 3/8" nylon tee inserted in the racking hose:
   air in           ** The turbulance caused by the tee   
      |             ** helps form small air bubbles
 tee->|--wort in     
      |               
   wort out - jammed into big hole of orange carboy cap

The thing works great. Unlike a racking hose/holes, it will aerate well even
at low wort flows.  It usually takes me 20-30 minutes to rack off the boiler
since I immersion cool, whirlpool and rack with a slotted copper loop
manifold and fast racking tends to clog the manifold with hops and break
material.

I collect the foam ejected from the carboy via a 1/4" hose attached to an
orange 2-hole carboy cap.  The hose runs vertically out of the cap for about
1-2 feet then down to a sanitized 3 L plastic pop bottle or a 5 gal. carboy
if I have an empty one.   If I don't use a carboy, I have to keep a close
watch on the level of foam in the 3 L bottle or it will overflow. If it
starts to overfill, I just turn off the air pump.  I also aerate after
racking with a air stone with the same blowoff setup.  After the foam in the
blowoff container has settled, I pour the resulting wort back into the
fermenter.

Happy aerating to ya!
C.D. Pritchard    cdp at chattanooga.net


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Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 17:16:00 -0500 (EST)
From: greg at kgn.ibm.com (Greg Holton)
Subject: DME

> Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 08:19:39 -0500 (EST)
> From: Al Paglieri <bq359 at freenet.toronto.on.ca>
> Subject: Dried Malt Extract
> 
> 
> In my quest to get a good deal on a bulk purchase of DME I came across a 
> company that has "baking grade" DME.  The tech support could not 
> satisfactorily explain this for me.  
> 
> Is this sutible for my homebrew and what is the difference between 
> brewing grade and baking grade?
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> 
> Al.
> 

I've tried it and wouldn't recommend it.  I don't think it's mashed with
the intention of creating fermentable sugars, so it finishes with high FG
and very sweet.  If you already have some and are wondering what to do 
with it, I'd suggest using it in small proportions in beers where residual
sweetness is desired, such as scotch ales, etc., in place of cara pils.

  Greg

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Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 17:13:48 -0800
From: cwebster at ix.netcom.com (Charles Webster)
Subject: got there

Bryan,

got there I see. You guys won a medal at today's BABO. don't know which one.
Just saw your post and thought I'd write.

<Chas>

Charles Webster
cwebster at ix.netcom.com
clever sig under construction.


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Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 10:40:54 +0900
From: Chris Green <chris at gol.com>
Subject: Brewing in Japan

Doug Thomas writes:

> I have a friend in Japan who says that almost any beer you get there is
> 2nd rate at best, as well as being week.

Homogeneous, but not second-rate, at least when compared with North
American megabreweries. Lots of mild, lightly-hopped pale lagers with
substantially more body than Budmilloors. ABV ranges from 4.5 percent to
6 percent for some "winter" lagers.

> Home brewing is almost non-existant, seeing legally you can only produce a
> beverage of less than 1% alcohol.

A recent magazine article estimated the number of homebrewers at 10,000.
That sounds a little high, but I suspect there at least a few thousand
of us. As yet, though, liquid yeast and grain of any sort are
unavailable locally. People either source these goodies from overseas or
brew with extract and dry yeast.

> My question is, What about Sake?  I have heard there are a great number of
> home Sake brewers, and they produce a drink with a much higher percentage
> alcohol than 1%.  Is this because sake is fermented with yeast and
> bacteria, or are they just breaking the law and making it anyway?

I doubt whether many people brew sake at home (it's just as illegal as
beer and not nearly as palatable), but the country is peppered with sake
"micros" producing far better brews than the major refineries.

> Also, has anyone heard anything about the 1 or 2 microbreweries in
> Japan?  Where they are located and if they are any good?

At last count there were 16 or 17 licensed micros and brewpubs, all of
which have sprung up in the last year or two, and few of which yet
produce beers on a par with North American breweries and brewpubs. They
can be found throughout Japan, from Hokkaido down to Kyushu, and maybe
Okinawa.

- ------
Chris Green /  Tokyo, Japan  /  chris at gol.com

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Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 21:25:39 -0500
From: bob at harvey.carol.net (Robert Rogers)
Subject: super-hydrometer

>Anyhow, this is one I have wondered about as well.  But another feature
which would be great is to have a hydrometer and thermometer in one unit, so one
could do accurate correction without the hassle of two separate
menasurements.  I use the SG scale; frankly, if they bagged the potential
alcohol, Balling, and Plato scales in favor of good ol' degrees F and C it'd
be OK with me.  Perhaps there would even be room for a correction table on
the unit...

my grandmother has one with a thermometer an correction table in it. they
used it for maple syrup production, which they quit over 20 years ago. i
don't think she ever used it for the wine whe made. Method: dump fruit,
sugar, and water into large open ceramic vessles. wait. bottle. when she
moved some 20 years later we found some in the basement and it was still
drinkable. 

alcohol abuse: spilling it
bob rogers
bob at carol.net


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Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 01:58:38 -0600
From: brokenskull at earthlink.net (Tim & Marilyn)
Subject: Brewing with maple sap

Has anybody brewed with sap?  I am going to try it this year. However. i'm
not quite sure how to figure out how much the sugers in the sap will effect
the alcohol content.  Any help appreciated.

tim.....brokenskull at earthlink.net



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Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 11:23:21 +0200
From: gilad at Orbotech.Co.IL (Gilad Barak)
Subject: stuck fermentation (?)

Hi,

I have an ale fermenting for 11 days now. Due to cool weather fermentation was
never vigorous. I did move it from primary to secondary after 5 days assuming
that it will take time. Yeast is M&F dry ale yeast, and temperature reading
of the beer is around 14C (57F).
SG was 1044 it is now 1017 but seems to be stuck - the inverted cup in a three 
piece lock is kept suspended on a CO2 cushion but there are no bubbles (at least
not in the several minutes range). 
So - what do I do?
Wait - it will take time but will go lower?
Pitch new yeast?
Increase the temperture (how much)?
Other suggestions?

Usualy I have problems keeping the temperature low enough. It is the first time
I have temperatures which I think are a bit low for ale.

TIA,
Gilad
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
   Gilad Barak - Israel
   gilad at orbotech.co.il
   or
   gilad.barak at Orbotech.Co.Il
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 08:00:52
From: braue at ratsnest.win.net (John W. Braue, III)
Subject: Glycerol/Glycerin(e)

ge083 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (G. M. Elliott) asks:

>I need some help/answers on glycerol, is it the same as 
>glycerin?  I want to try to freeze some yeast samples using
>glycerol but have not had any luck finding it anywhere-I've
>tried all the local drugstores and nothing.
>
>Any help in finding it would be appreciated and or any comments
>on how well this has worked for anyone else.

Yes, they are the same.  "Glycerol" is the more proper name, as the
 -ol ending (properly) indicates an alcohol.  The older name,
"glycerin(e)", improperly suggests an amine component, which is
not present.

There was a lengthy thread on the use of glycerol in the recent
past, which I won't try to reproduce here. 

- --
John W. Braue, III                      braue at ratsnest.win.net

I prefer both my beer and my coffee to be dark and bitter; that way,
they fit in so well with the rest of my life.

I've decided that I must be the Messiah; people expect me to work 
miracles, and when I don't, I get crucified.

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Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 08:46:39 -0500
From: DONBREW at aol.com
Subject:  PLASTIC CONTAINERS

Ronald La Borde writes:
>What I plan to do is build a variable power source to the heating element.
>I have drawn up the plans but haven't tested it.  You can get the el cheapo
>600 watt dimmers for electrical lighting but try to go to 220 volts or more
>than 1000 watts and you are talking big bucks. So the only way would be to
>build one yourself.  You will need a solid state relay for 220 volts 25 amps
>Potter and Brumfield part number SSR-240D25R
>
>That "R" in the part number is very important it means RANDOM firing.  If
>you do not get the random firing solid state relay it will not be able to

>        "If the only tool you have is a hammer,
>               you tend to view every problem as a nail."
>

   Your sig line sums up my remark.  Why not use a control from an electric
stovetop?  They work on the same principle, but mechanical instead of
electrical.  They have a bi-metal strip with a heater coil on it so that the
contact goes intermittently at a rate determined by how far the contact has
to move.
   However, I am a gadget head so your idea does appeal to me.  FWIW a stove
control costs about $25 or can be had off of an old stove for free.  How much
do think your circuit might cost?

Don
Falls Church, Va.
  

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Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 09:37:55 -0500
From: Russ Snyder <rsnyder at LANDO.HNS.COM>
Subject: Lager yeast with Ale recipe?

Greetings from a long-time lurker, first-time poster,

I started a batch of pale ale this weekend only to find that the ambient
tempurature in our house is genereally too cool for the ale yeast to
ferment.  I'm using Edme dry ale yeast which says on the package to keep the
temp. between 65 and 75 deg. F.  Well, our house has been around 60 deg. F
(moral:  never buy a house with an electric heat pump) and the fermentation
has essentially stopped without ever reaching krausen.

Since I don't have a clever way of keeping the carboy at the required temp.
and cranking the heat up in the house is not an option (house is empty
during the day and can't justify heating it for the beer alone), I was
wondering:

1.  Is there an ale yeast that would work at 55-65 deg. F?
2.  Could I use a lager yeast if I moved the carboy to the basement or
garage       and kept it at 45-55 deg. F?
3.  If I did #2, how would the beer taste and should I dry hop as I was
planning?

I'm leaning towards the lager yeast solution for now.  It will be
interesting to see how this batch turns out.  Has anyone ever used both an
ale and a lager yeast in the same batch?  Kind of have all the tempurature
ranges covered that way, but have no real control over the yeast
contribution to the flavor.

TIA,
Russ


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Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 09:40:55 -0500
From: PatrickM50 at aol.com
Subject: soldering copper manifold

lposz at cisco.comsystem says that he:

>>>>>>>>
"opted for a slotted 1/2" diameter copper manifold 
in a rectangular shaped 48 quart picnic cooler.  . . .

I've already built the unit but had a question regarding
soldering the copper joints.  I used silver (lead free) solder
that complies with all applicable safe drinking water laws.

Is it okay to use the solder to secure the joints or should
I have tried harder to find compression fittings for the
90 degree elbow joints, etc.?"
>>>>>>>>>>>

Don't bother soldering the fittings at all.  Just slip the straight pieces
into the elbows at brew time and put the thing into your cooler.  This
assumes, of course, that the manifold is big enough to sit next to the walls
of your cooler and therefore can't be forced apart once it's installed.  Any
little bit of wort that leaks out just mixes with the rest of the wort that's
in the cooler anyway, i.e. it's not going anywhere except back into the
manifold. Actually, now that I think about it, the flow of wort through the
manifold is more likely to pull wort *into* the joints which are even more
effective than the cut slots at holding back debris.  So I don't worry about
it. 

It's also much easier to clean separate short pieces of slotted copper and
elbows than a soldered continuous ring of same.

BTW, for anyone with other reasons to solder copper and don't wish to invest
in the necessary equipment, you might try "Copper-Bond" adhesive.  It's a
two-part food grade epoxy that can be used for hot and cold potable water
connections.  Cures in 20 minutes and worked great for my sparging
contraption.  Available at your local hardware store for about $7.50US.  No
affiliation, of course, or I'd probably be making some serious money by now. 

Lager,
Pat Maloney -  Sonoma County, California

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Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 06:45:56 -0800
From: folsom at ix.netcom.com (Alan Folsom)
Subject: War of The Worts Competition

The Keystone Hops' War of the Worts competition, was by all the early 
evidence, a great success.  The organizing committee would like to 
thank all the judges, stewards, and especially the brewers who 
contributed to the contest.  181 beers were entered and judged in 14 
categories.  Chuck Hanning won Best of Show with his Dubbel.

Boo, hiss to the five judges who said they were coming and didn't show.

Score sheets and results will be mailed as soon as we can stand dealing 
with them again.  In the meantime, if anyone would like a list of all 
the winners, send me email and I'll get it out to you electronically.

Any feedback on the organization of the contest (please, don't tell me 
about how your beer was misjudged!) would be appreciated.  I'll pass it 
along to the rest of the committee.

Thanks again to all who contributed.

Al Folsom



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Date: Mon, 22 Jan 96 10:04:36 EST
From: Pierre Jelenc <pcj1 at columbia.edu>
Subject: Yeast in stabs

I have just had reason to try to revive three yeast strains that have been
in YPD-agar stabs at home fridge temperature since October 1992. 

The champagne yeast (WYeast) was strong and healthy and formed numerous
colonies on plate. 

The Chimay (Red) and the Sierra Nevada (Pale Ale) were both essentially
dead, giving respectively one and three colonies from a generous loopful.
Since they were both in good shape this past July, it seems that their
life expectancy in stabs is about 3 years. 

Pierre

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Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 01:19:09 +1100
From: merino at cynergy.com.au (Charlie Scandrett)
Subject: Bottle filling/hazes & heads

Kelly Jones posts about Steve Alexander's experiments with bottle filling
levels and fermentation,
KJ>1) Steve's work seems to indicate that low-fill bottles carbonate
>faster than high-fill.  I can't come up with an explanation for this
>based upon the physics, and so I suspect Steve may be right when he
>suggests that more oxygen in the underfill bottles may be creating a
>healthier environment for the yeast.

Actually Steve's results have broad agreement with other research on this
subject. G. Fix says that increasing CO2 pressure "tends to retard yeast
metabolism", while quoting a paper, 
The Response of S. Cerevisiae to Fermentation under CO2 pressure",
Arcay-Ledezma, J.C. Slaughter, "JIB", Vol 90, 1984.
If anyone can find this article, please let me know!
Commercially, increased CO2 pressure is used to retard diacytel and ester
production in high temp lager fermentation. (18C)

Jeff Smith posts:
JS>I crushed the rice in my PhilMill and cooked it in 6 qt. of water for one
JS>hour and let the temp drop to 130F.  Then I added the grain and held the
JS>temp at 122F for 30 minutes.  I added 2 qt. boiling water and raised the
JS>temp to 152F and held it there for 1 hour.  I sparged with 2 gallons of
JS>water (with no stuck or slow run off), added the extract and boiled.

JS>I racked the it after a week in the carboy, threw in some hops and put it on
JS>my porch to sit.  After a day in the cold (between 32F and 10F) I noticed
JS>that the beer was cloudy. 

and Dave Draper posts,

DD>Dear Friends, Dave Rinker asks about not getting that fine bead. 
DD>Dave, you might try adding a little wheat malt and/or flaked barley
DD>to the mash.  You might pay for it with increase haze, but I have
DD>routinely achieved fine, creamy head doing this.  Lately, in an
DD>effort to track down the source of some haze problems, I have left
DD>it out, but it is too soon to tell for sure whether that will affect
DD>the heading, but the early signs are that it does.  I use anywhere
DD>from 200 to 500 gr in my usual 3-3.5 kg mashes (7 to 17 oz in 6.6 to
DD>7.7 lb) of combined wheat malt & flaked barley depending on style.

As an adjunct brewer, Jeff needs the 50C (122F) rest for amino acid levels
for yeast nutrition. (I suggest 47C(117F)). But this rest has little effect
on haze, and a negative one at that. 
A rest at 57C (135F) would stimulate Proteinase activity and reduce the High
Molecular Weight Proteins to more soluble forms. HMWP's are considered "bad"
for haze, but it is the structure of *some* of them that is more important.
Dave's wheat has lots of HMWP's but they are not that haze prone as the
classic barley fraction. They do contribute to head.
For an all malt brewer with less than 20% wheat and a base malt with *over*
37% Kolbach index of modification, a "protein" rest in the 45-52C range
(Peptidase)is counter productive. More than necessary FANs, more HWMP's
while you wait, reduction in albumin and medium weight polypeptides.
Also, because most(~75%) of the total soluble protein was hydrolysed in
malting *and* it continues quickly to its limit at a wide range of mash
temps, (35-65C), there is little point trying to limit it. The problematic
HWMP's will pass into the mash anyway, so
1/Reduce them by Proteinase activity in the 55-59C range.
2/Keep the pH low at start of boil ~5.5 max.
3/Keep the pH low at start of boil ~5.5 max.(yes, I repeated it)
4/ If your kettle has a tight lid, put on an oven mit and hold it down tight
for 10 minutes at the start of the boil. The little bit of pressure (~1 psi)
generated will have a noticible effect on the quantity of hot break, and an
invisible effect on the *quality* of the break. The problematic fraction of
HWMP's.
5/ Lauter/sparge slowly, especially for rice adjuncts. This reduces tannins
as we know (as does low pH), but it also reduces head destroying
lipids(oils). Protein rests are often blamed for the effects of these
lipids. It has been calculated that there is 3-5 times as much of the
positive head retaining protein fraction in pale, well modified malts that
are infusion mashed as is necessary for a good stable head.
6/ For a fine head bubble, "Keep the pH low at start of boil ~5.5 max."!

I will explain all this and more in the upcoming Protein FAQ. I expect a
lively debate.

Charlie  (Brisbane, Australia)


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Date: Mon, 22 Jan 96 10:36:00 EST
From: "Dulisse, Brian" <bbd4 at CIPCOD1.EM.CDC.GOV>
Subject: pitching yeast


now that the "when to pitch" thread is coming back, i would like to raise an 
issue i've wondered about:  how much better is it to pitch at the optimal 
time in the life cycle of the starter than to wait until later (perhaps even 
until the yeast has fallen out of suspension)?  it seems to me there's a 
tradeoff involved here.  pitching soon after high kraeusen seems to imply 
that you are pitching the entire starter, and if following the 10:1 "rule", 
means that you are adding liquid equivalent to 10 percent of your wort 
volume by adding the starter.  although i have made the switch to all grain, 
i still use dme to make up my starters; this would imply that roughly 9 
percent of the resulting wort in the fermenter is the starter, which likely 
differs in significant ways from the wort i labored to create via my choice 
of grains, mashing schedule, etc.

so, accepting that the yeast are in the optimal state to pitch just after 
high kraeusen, how much worse off are the yeast if we wait, say, until 
they've settled out (so that we can pour off the liquid)?  presumably 
they've used up some of the built up glycogen, but how much?  a more 
subjective way of putting the question is does adding the yeast at the 
optimal point in the starter cycle offset the addition of the "alien" wort 
to the fermenter?

a related question: when we add yeast to a starter, is the size of the 
starter  the limiting factor determining the  "goodness" of the resulting 
material pitched into the wort (assuming an appropriate temperature, etc.)? 
 in other words, suppose i take two starters of a pint each, and innoculate 
one with a smak-pak worth of yeast, and innoculate the other with a big glob 
of yeast saved from a previous batch.  are the number of *healthy* cells at 
any point after high kraeusen the same?  if not, does this argue for the 
following starter procedure: taking saved yeast from previous batches, 
making a *small* starter (i.e., much less than the 10:1 "rule"), and 
pitching that just after high kraeusen?

sorry for the length

bd

oh, one more thing.  i'm going to be in the san francisco area next month. 
 i went on the anchor tour last year; are there any other brewery/brewpub 
tours worth taking in the area (chico is too far)?

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Date:          Mon, 22 Jan 1996 16:45:28 +0200
From: "DAVID LEWIS" <LEWIS at hali.edv.agrar.tu-muenchen.de>
Subject:       Re: Open Fermenters

Open fermenters are still relatively common in Bavaria.  The brewery 
I worked at had 8 open and 4 closed, and in summer used lager tanks 
as emergency primary fermenters.  Even the closed fermenters were 
little more than loosely covered open fermenters.  Lag times were 
kept low by carefully monitoring yeast viability--yeast was reused 
up to 12 times, within 8 hours of harvesting.  Air was filtered, and 
the room was under more or less counterpressure.  There were never 
any problems with infections during my year there.  We brewed only 
bottom fermenting beers there; for top fermenting beers, for example 
weiss beers, open fermenting is even more common.    

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Date: Mon, 22 Jan 96 11:20:59 CST
From: "Tracy Aquilla" <aquilla at salus.med.uvm.edu>
Subject: when to pitch, open fermentations

In Digest #1941:
korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas) wrote:
>Wade writes:
>>should pitch at high krausen when the glycogen level was
>>highest, and the other that you should pitch just after the
>>krausen falls.
>
>Quite the contrary -- high kraeusen is when the glycogen levels
>are *lowest*.  You're right about the two schools of thought,
>but I'm afraid that the "pitch at high kraeusen" faction
>is basing their methods on what Papazian and Miller and Noonan
>have been preaching for a while.  Since their books have
>come out, there has been some research done on this [snip] and
>they have found that pitching at high kraeusen increased
>diacetyl and acetaldehyde levels in the finished
>beer and resulted in less attenuation.
>The reference is:...[snip]

This is not necessarily so. My position is not based on what Papazian,
Miller, or Noonan say, but rather my knowledge of microbiology and the
scientific literature. Since many people have complained about too much
biochemistry lately, I'm not going to get into that here. Suffice it to say
that glycogen metabolism is MUCH more complex than is indicated here and is
highly dependent on wort nitrogen, sulfur, and phosphate levels, as well as
availability of fermentable carbohydrates. Based on what I've found in the
literature, glycogen synthesis in fermenting beer (or a starter culture)
begins well before the stationary phase and yeast glycogen reserves may not
be rapidly depleted upon pitching, particularly if the culture is
well-adapted to the wort. There are also authors who have found that initial
glycogen levels in pitching yeast have no measurable impact on beer quality.
The point here is, it's probably not a good idea to rely on a single
reference when it comes to something this complex.

[snip]
>The bottom line, from all this reading is:
>The proper time to pitch is shortly after high kraeusen when the yeast
>have stopped multiplying.

I think we may have a problem with semantics here. Actually, "shortly after"
high kraeusen (HK), the yeast are still budding fairly rapidly; they have
not stopped multiplying yet. It would not be good to wait until they stop
growing to pitch, as this would increase lag time significantly. My opinion
is that it is somewhat difficult for most homebrewers to time their yeast
starters with brew day. It is also somewhat tedious to determine glycogen
reserves (you can do a starch test). In light of these facts, even if it
were best to pitch when glycogen reserves were highest, and even if we had a
way of knowing this, it would generally be difficult to accomplish in
practice. Fortunately, we have alternatives, like pitching more cells and
aerating the wort thoroughly. IMO, if you adapt the starter to a wort
similar to the brew, grow it large enough, and aerate the wort, you
generally won't have any problems with off-flavors or poor attenuation,
whether you pitch at HK or after. In fact, if you do all these things AND
pitch at HK, you'll give the yeast the best chance to make good beer. 


Then Scottie617 at aol.com wrote:
[snip]
>1-How and why should I use open fermentation?
>2-How do you reuse the yeast. And when and how should I save it.
>and for how long?
>3-I figure from Jim Bushes post that contamination is not a problem, but I am
>concerned that I never have very short lag times.

1) HOW?-use a bucket for a fermenter and remove the lid once a head forms.
If your home is infested with curious critters, you might leave the lid on
loosely. WHY?-some say 'it just tastes better'. So far, nobody here has been
able to put their finger on exactly why or how this works, or what the
improved flavors are.
2) Just as one would with any other fermenter, collect the yeast and save it
in a sanitized jar in the fridge or repitch onto the yeast cake after
transfer. Some believe that ideally, one should skim the yeast from the top
during high kraeusen. You'll certainly get more viable cells this way, but
it's a bit more work. If you save the yeast, try to use it ASAP (best within
a coupla weeks).
3) Whether or not contamination is a problem depends on your sanitation and
your philosophy. When repitching routinely, one is bound to accumulate
contaminants over time, but this may not develop into a serious problem and
may ultimately result in "house flavors", some good, others potentially bad.
If you repitch fairly fresh yeast, lag times should be pretty short and
contaminants shouldn't be a big problem, at least for many generations. Good
luck.

    Tracy in Vermont
    aquilla at salus.med.uvm.edu

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Date: Mon, 22 Jan 96 09:22:02 PST
From: b_roach at emulex.com (Brad Roach)
Subject: RE: care and feeding of corney keg?


Bob writes:
>also, how can i tell how much is still in the keg (without opening it)?

In my set up, I use an old bathroom scale that I purchased in a garage 
sale. I marked on the scale an empty keg weight and a full keg weight.

>the keg won't hold more than about 5psi

I had the same problem even with new O rings. I got around the problem
by soaking the rings in water and cranking on the initial pressure to
around 40-50 psi to form a better seal. I think that soda pop dispenses
at a much higher pressure than 5 psi, so I figured that the O rings may 
seal better at a higher initial pressure. After 5-10 minutes, i lower the
pressure to 20 psi to condition the beer. Sometimes if I suspect leaks, I 
make up some soapy water and wipe around the seal and check for bubbles.
 

Brad Roach in Newport Beach, Calif

"From the key board, through the web, nothing but net"


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Date: Mon, 22 Jan 96 09:17:00 PST
From: "Olson, Greger J - CI/911-2" <gjolson at bpa.gov>
Subject: RE: HB1941(Pat Babcock)/Portland Beer Places


OK Pat, I'll bite (byte?).  What is

>> IYWIDRTYMJFDIY  ?
 -------------------------------------------------------
From: "A. Sturdivant \"Sturdy\" McKee" <sturdy at itsa.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Portland, OR beer places.
<Snip>
>>As a search of the Realbeer Page turned up over 20 breweries/brewpubs and
>>as I'm only going to Portland for 2 days, could any of you please send me
>>your top ten list of places to visit?

For the Micros themselves try: Bridgeport, Portland Brewing and Widmer. 
 Saxer makes lagers (which is atypical, but I don't think they have a pub).

For the brewpubs try: Any of the McMenamin's (McBeer) outlets (decent 
food/brews, Grateful Dead atmosphere - I recommend the Terminator stout), 
Rock Bottom (if you like a yuppie/trendy feel), Fulton Pub, Harborside 
Pilsner Room (for upscale, watch the tourists & the river).  All of these 
are near downtown. This is only a small sample but I need to do more 
personal "research".

<insert clever tag lines>
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------  
 -----
Greg Olson - Grouchy Bear <Pico>Brewery, Lake Oswego, Oregon
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------  
 -----Cobol.  It is the language of the Living Dead, a decrepit tool that 
inhabits a hoary technological netherworld.  At the heels of this demon 
follow its minions, Lost Information Systems Souls... COMPUTERWORLD  <What I 
do besides brew>
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------  
 -----

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Date: Mon, 22 Jan 96 09:39:31 -0800
From: Kelly Jones Intel Portland Technology Development <kejones at ptdcs2.intel.com>
Subject: Hydrometer Altitude Corrections

Roy asks about altitude corrections for hydrometer readings:  
This effect (yes, the air in Denver has less bouyancy than that 
here in Portland) is far too negligible to consider.

Kelly


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