HOMEBREW Digest #1941 Mon 22 January 1996
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FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Aeration during fermentation/Open fermentation/Sucrose/Pitch timing (Algis R Korzonas)
PLASTIC CONTAINERS (LaBorde, Ronald)
Grain bags... ("Ansley, Dean")
Labratory supply source wanted (Esbitter)
Portland, OR beer places. ("A. Sturdivant \"Sturdy\" McKee")
care and feeding of corney keg? (Robert Rogers)
Re: Gravity Gradient (dludwig)
open fermentations questions (Scottie617)
Bishop's Finger clone search (Bob_Brescia.GLAXO)
Diacetyl taste description? (Denis Barsalo)
Yeast techno-thread... (pbabcock.ford)
SCUM (Gary S. Kuyat)
Glycerol Gltcerin (G. M. Elliott)
priming with honey (Bryan Gros)
Harvesting Yeast Beasties. (Matthew Saunders)
Re: open fermentation and aeration redux again/Klages (Jeff Frane)
More stupid homebrewer tricks (Jeff Benjamin)
Dark Candi Sugar and Caramelized Sucrose (John DeCarlo )
PU Yeast Strains, Re: First Decoction Attempt (Bob McCowan)
Honey Bees/newbie kegger CO2/open fermenter aeration (Bob Waterfall)
Styrofoam?!?!?!? (Rob Emenecker)
Hopping Coffee ("Kevin Imel")
("Tom Williams")
Sagebrush, Lagers, and Mead Carbonation ("Goodale, Daniel CPT 4ID DISCOM")
re: Chartreuse... (Dick Dunn)
Thydrometer (TM) (chris pittock)
Plastic Hydrometer/RIMS Heater pipe/Open Ferment (Evan Kraus)
Micro Brewery Sites in NC/VA (Chris Strickland)
copper and oxidation (Rob Lauriston)
another CO data point (John W. Carpenter)
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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 96 14:46:08 CST
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: Aeration during fermentation/Open fermentation/Sucrose/Pitch timing
Tom writes:
>I for one will vouch for the fact that aeration (oxygenation) after
>the onset of vigorous fermentation will cause aldehyde production.
>I had a nice English brown that I brewed during the "dropping" thread
>a while back. As soon as vigorous fermentation kicked in, I racked
>while aerating (my misinterpretation of the thread) and ended up with
>an unintentional brown apple ale, the aroma was almost exactly like
>the smell of green apples. AVOID AERATION DURING FERMENT!!!!!
>By the way, the beer was not ruined, just different. 8^)
It depends very much upon the yeast strain. Some produce excess diacetyl
others don't. Your excess acetaldehyde may have been due to the aeration
during fermentation (I don't recall reading anywhere that aeration during
fermentation can increase acetaldehyde production -- anyone?) or it may
have been caused by other things like glycogen-starved yeast. I know that
the Samuel Smith's yeast (available from The Yeast Culture Kit Co.) behaves
well when you aerate during fermentation. It only increases the diacetyl
with that yeast. I faintly recall that Wyeast London ESB #1968 may
work well with aeration during fermentation. Has anyone had any other
yeasts that worked well (or did not for that matter)? Please post your
experiences.
***
Jeff writes:
>What I don't fully understand is why it's taking Jack 10 days
>to reach a stage that isn't even completely clear. In 10 days,
>I'm drinking my beer.
And then later he writes:
>I haven't done any lagers in quite a while, but I suspect it
>would depend. I've used a few strains that seemed to produce
>a distinct krausen, and they might work. I *believe* I've
>seen photographs in old texts of lager breweries that did
>their primary open, but don't quote me on it.
These two statments are actually related... Jack is making lagers.
Also, Pilsner Urquell ferments at least part of their beer in huge open
wooden fermenters. Also (although this may be at the PU brewery) there is
a picture in Jackson's New World Guide to Beer (or is it on his video?)
of a German or Bohemian brewmaster checking the clarity of some fermenting
lager with a small glass container and a candle that looks like it's about
to drip into the vat. Now that I think of it, I believe that it is in
Jackson's video because I remember seeing this brewmaster climbing a ladder
to take the sample. I haven't seen those videos for a couple of years,
come to think of it, maybe this weekend I'll watch one while brewing.
***
Aidan writes:
>(Al explained how hotter sparge temps were just more likely to
>burst unconverted starch granules more than cause astringency)
>
>My comment is basically re-iterating something JS said a *long*
>time ago, and was poo poo-ed for .. that your sparge water can
>be ALOT hotter than 168, but that dosen't mean your *grain bed*
>will be .. which is, after all, where all the action is.
Yes, and you will also recall that I pointed out that Jack's beer
had a slight haze, which may have been starch haze. Note that indeed
if you have a lot of heat loss between the hot liquor tank and the
mash bed, your sparge water will be much cooler by the time that
it hits the grain bed. On the other hand, whey you and Jack are
measuring your grain bed temperatures, are you doing so in the very
top 1/2-inch of the bed? Perhaps you did? Sure, I'll bet that the
middle of the grain bed is well below 170F, but all it takes to extract
some unconverted starch is to heat the top 1/2-inch to 180F, no?
I'm just speculating here for the sake of discussion. What do you
think?
***
Jeff writes:
>Sucrose does seem
>to benefit the development of a tight, dense head in conjunction with
>high carbonation (see various Belgian beers and Cooper's Ale);
I find this hard to swallow. I cannot see how the type of sugar used
in the priming could affect the consistency of the head. Jeff -- did
you read this somewhere or is this based upon your observations. I
can see how diluting the protein levels in the beer with refined sugars
would help *allow* a high carbonation level without the uncontrollable
foaming that would surely be the case if the beer was very high in
those head-retaining proteins. Consider Champagne -- high carbonation,
but no head. Then consider Guinness on draught -- low carbonation, but
endless head. If you were to switch the Guinness to straight CO2 and
dispense at 3.00 volumes of CO2, I'll bet you couldn't keep it in the
glass. Perhaps this is what you meant, Jeff?
***
Wade writes:
>I recall a discussion several months ago about the proper
>stage of yeast 'growth' at which to pitch a starter. There
>were two schools of though, I also recall. One that you
>should pitch at high krausen when the glycogen level was
>highest, and the other that you should pitch just after the
>krausen falls.
Quite the contrary -- high kraeusen is when the glycogen levels
are *lowest*. You're right about the two schools of thought,
but I'm afraid that the "pitch at high kraeusen" faction
is basing their methods on what Papazian and Miller and Noonan
have been preaching for a while. Since their books have
come out, there has been some research done on this (frankly,
I'm amazed at how much brewing research comes out of South
Africa these days and the article I keep referring to was
from SA) and they have found that pitching at high kraeusen
increased diacetyl and acetaldehyde levels in the finished
beer and resulted in less attenuation. I had to re-read
this article several times for a project I'm working on
and I've found that waiting till the kraeusen falls may
be not as good as pitching when the ferment is just beginning
to slow down.
The reference is:
Impact of Yeast Handling Procedures on Beer Flavor During Fermentation
Pickerell et. all.
American Society of Brewing Chemists (ASBC) Journal, Vol 49:2, 1991, pp.87-92
In looking for that reference title, I also came across
another reference that makes this same point, but is far
easier for most of us to get a copy:
Practical Yeast Management
Dr. Paul Monk
Brewery Operations Volume #6
(1989 Microbrewers Conference Transcripts)
Brewers Publications, Boulder, CO
I've also recently read that starved yeast take several
generations to recover and ferment normally again. I'm sorry
I'm so sketchy about this, but the article is at home and
I'm here at work.
The bottom line, from all this reading is:
The proper time to pitch is shortly after high kraeusen when the yeast
have stopped multiplying. So, when Wade wrote:
>It seems to me that starters
>are used to build up the cell count needed for healthy
>fermentation given the quantity of work to do (i.e., sugar
>to ferment). Once that is achieved, it seems that the
>starter should be pitched just after the oxygen is used to
>fully develop the cell walls (which is what I gathered from
>the metabolism discussion) rather than after fermentation
>activity is underway.
he was half right. Yes, we do want to pitch right after the numbers
of cells have reached their peak, but it so happens that this is
*after* high kraeusen. Whether *anaerobic* fermentation has already
begun or not I defer to the microbiologists, but I know that there
can be quite a bit of activity in the fermenter even *before* anaerobic
fermentation has begun. Another slight correction (one which Tracy
corrected me on in private email) is that the oxygen is used to
make cell *membranes* not cell *walls*. Furthermore, it is healthy
cell *membranes* and not cell walls that determine if the yeast
have good or poor alcohol tolerance. From a practical perspective,
however, the old rule (aerate more for high-alcohol beers) still holds
true.
Al.
Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at pubs.att.com
Copyright 1996, Al Korzonas
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 96 16:20:12 -0600
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: PLASTIC CONTAINERS
>Randy Barnes asks about plastic containers:
>Now that that issue is solved, it's time to tackle my mash water heating
>system. I'm considering a 15 gal. plastic container with a hot water
>heater element installed in the side. Someone posted several months ago
>that this worked with no problems (i.e. not melting the bucket), but I
>don't remember the wattage of the heater used. I would like to use a
>220V, 4000 watt heater, mounted in the side about 4 inches from the
>bottom of the container. Will the heat from this melt the plastic?
I have a 15 gal. plastic container that I have used for 3 boils now and I am
very happy with it. It is blue in color and is HDPE. Actually it is the
container that was used to hold liquid malt extract. It was purchaced from
the local homebrew store for $7.00 with the lid cut off. They have been
using them to hold ice and corny kegs for picnics.
So I guess if it held LME at room temperature it can hold LME at boiling
temperature. After all, one man's room temperature may be another man's
boiling temperature depending on location.
I installed a 4500 watt 220 volt 10 inch high density heating element.
Connected a 220 volt cord and tried it out -- WOW this dude can cook! Let
me tell you one thing you do not need to worry about is if it can boil. It
can get 8 or so gal. of wort boiling in about 15 minutes. I thought maybee
the boil could be controlled by unplugging it from time to time but this
idea is no good. It stops boiling as soon as the plug is pulled.
So on the 3 boils that I have done I just let her rip and reduced the liquid
level about 2 gals. in 60 minutes. I haven't had any problems with
scorching. This was my greatest worry before I had tried it out. The
element mount stays cool enough to actually touch with my fingers and not
get burnt. The water does a fine job of keeping the temperature evenly
distributed. As I said I am very happy with this so far.
What I plan to do is build a variable power source to the heating element.
I have drawn up the plans but haven't tested it. You can get the el cheapo
600 watt dimmers for electrical lighting but try to go to 220 volts or more
than 1000 watts and you are talking big bucks. So the only way would be to
build one yourself. You will need a solid state relay for 220 volts 25 amps
Potter and Brumfield part number SSR-240D25R
That "R" in the part number is very important it means RANDOM firing. If
you do not get the random firing solid state relay it will not be able to
phase angle controll your load. This will not do for our use. Wire up an
el cheapo 600 watt dimmer and use it's output to feed a bridge rectifier to
produce the D.C. pulses needed to drive the big sold state relay. You will
need to reduce the voltage to less than 24 volts as the relay is rated for
24 volt max control voltage. You will need a metal box also, to act as a
heat sink. Will need at least 36 square inches to dissipate the heat (6 x 6
inches). This controller will (should) allow you to twirl the knob and enjoy
smooth heat control. I have not built this yet and I am sure it will take
some tinkering to get it right but I plan to start on it in a week or so.
Ronald J. La Borde "If the only tool you have is a hammer,
Metairie, LA you tend to view every problem as a nail."
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 17:37:00 +0000
From: "Ansley, Dean" <dansley at broc.com>
Subject: Grain bags...
Gilad writes:
>To me the first option seems simple and efficient. Since I have no grain
>bag (can't get one here in Israel), I went with the second method.
>What are the specs for a grain bag. is the nylon mesh used for windows
good
>enough (I guess it can withstand the temperature, but is the size
right?).
>I would like to get suggestion as to how I can make one myself
(material,
size
>etc.).
Something else that is a fantastic replacement for a grain bag is a
Stuffing bag. These can be found at most grocery stores, or most places
where they sell cooking items. They also should be easier to find than a
grain bag.
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 18:24:41 -0500
From: Esbitter at aol.com
Subject: Labratory supply source wanted
Can anyone suggest a good catalog or source for chemicals, lab equipment
(test tubes, etc), and sterile filters for airation setups? Please pass along
any phone numbers or e-mail addresses that might be helpful. TIA.
Randy Reed
South Shore Brew Club
South of Boston, MA - USA
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 18:12:40 -0800 (PST)
From: "A. Sturdivant \"Sturdy\" McKee" <sturdy at itsa.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Portland, OR beer places.
I know this type of thing gets repetitive, and for that I apologize.
Skip to next message.
As a search of the Realbeer Page turned up over 20 breweries/brewpubs and
as I'm only going to Portland for 2 days, could any of you please send me
your top ten list of places to visit?
TIA,
Sturdy
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 21:56:00 -0500
From: bob at harvey.carol.net (Robert Rogers)
Subject: care and feeding of corney keg?
i am the proud owner of a reconditiond corney keg. my first batch was less
than stellar. the keg won't hold more than about 5psi. i think i need a new
o ring. does anyone know of a good source?
also, how can i tell how much is still in the keg (without opening it)?
cool idea: lowe's has plastic tubing with stainless steel braid on sale. i
think i'm going to use it for my serving line.
alcohol abuse: pouring it out
bob rogers
bob at carol.net
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 22:42:38 -0500
From: dludwig at atc.ameritel.net
Subject: Re: Gravity Gradient
>3) Secondary gravity gradients. Hmmm. I always assumed that the beer was
>pretty much of one nature at this point, so there wouldn't be any thicker or
>thinner parts to form gradients. Anyone know if this is true or not?
I'll give it a shot. No detectable S.G. gradient. Because the compounds
we're dealing with are soluble in water, your beer is going to find
equilibrium in terms of S.G unlike a mixture of oil and water where you
would see differences depending on where you take your sample. Or from
another angle, your non-fermentable sugars don't gravitate to the bottom and
your alcohols and water gravitate to the top. As far as S.G. gradients, if
you add fresh water to fermenting beer, equilibrium has to take a finite
amount of time to occur so I suspect you would detect an S.G. gradient if
you were fast enough.
Dave Ludwig in Southern MD
Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 23:05:42 -0500
From: Scottie617 at aol.com
Subject: open fermentations questions
Hi Y'all
I got no responses from my questions on open fermentation, maybe I'm too
simple or redundant, but here goes again. I will keep asking until I get
some help. I will simplefy my questions.
1-How and why should I use open fermentation?
2-How do you reuse the yeast. And when and how should I save it.
and for how long?
3-I figure from Jim Bushes post that contamination is not a problem, but I am
concerned that I never have very short lag times.
Scott E.
Return to table of contents
Date: 19 Jan 96 00:09:31 EST
From: <Bob_Brescia.GLAXO at notes.compuserve.com>
Subject: Bishop's Finger clone search
I am trying to formulate a recipe close to the Naeme's Bishops Finger
Kentish Ale.....
My first guess would be something along these lines, but am not sure what
yeast to use..Any suggestions?
6 lb Light DME
1/2 lb Crystal (60L)
1/2 lb Carapils-Dextrine
1/2 lb Brown sugar
1 oz Fuggles (60 min)
1/2 oz Kent Golding (30 min)
1/2 oz Kent Golding (3 min steep)
1 tsp gypsum
1 tsp irish moss
1 pkg Wyeast 1098 British Ale Yeast
1-1/4 c. DME for priming
Add grains to 3 gallons of cold water and heat to 160. Remove from heat,
cover and let sit for 15 minutes.
After 30 minutes remove grains and bring to boil.
Add all extract and 1 oz. Fuggles hops.
At 30 minutes add 1/2 oz of Kent Goldings.
At 40 minutes add irish moss
At 60 minutes add remainder of hops and remove from heat.
Steep hops for 3 minutes, remove all hops and cool to 65 degrees.
Pitch yeast.
Primary for 5 days and rack to secondary for additional 7 days.
Bottle with 1-1/4c. DME.
Serve after 3 weeks
Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 07:32:08 -0500
From: denisb at CAM.ORG (Denis Barsalo)
Subject: Diacetyl taste description?
Brewers,
Can anyone who has had problems with high diacetyl levels decribe
the taste for me?
Why would one want to increase or decrease this taste?
TIA
Denis
Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 07:45:06 EST
From: pbabcock.ford at e-mail.com
Subject: Yeast techno-thread...
Pat Babcock Internet: pbabcock.ford at e-mail.com
Bronco Plant Vehicle Team - Body Construction Assembly Engineer
Subject: Yeast techno-thread...
For all of you who haven't been paying attention to the current yeast thread:
It'll be on the final exam...
=)
IYWIDRTYMJFDIY
Best regards,
Patrick G. Babcock Michigan Truck Plant PVT Office
(313)46-70842 (V) -70843 (F) 38303 Michigan Wayne,MI 48184
Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 8:25:15 EST
From: Gary S. Kuyat <gkuyat at clark.att.com>
Subject: SCUM
Every year I do an experimental batch to showcase my homegrown hops. This
standard brew has evolved (or maybe de-evolved) into a 6-row/cornstarch brew.
Sooo, I'm using lots o' starch here. The taste brings rave reviews from all my
megabrew swilling friends.
I have noticed while brewing this that a lot of scum accumulates on the surface
of the boil. The first time this occured, there was so much that I decided to
taste it. It tasted like unmashed starch. Further, this stuff when skimmed
and put in a glass does not turn back into wort as it cools. Skimming has
basically eliminated boilovers, and since this stuff doesn't reform after
removal, I don't think it's "wort in disguise".
I have not noticed any down side to this skimmming, but maybe there is one?
Anybody know for sure what's in this scum I skim?
Gary Kuyat
gkuyat at clark.lc.att.com
Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 10:46:54 -0500
From: ge083 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (G. M. Elliott)
Subject: Glycerol Gltcerin
I need some help/answers on glycerol, is it the same as
glycerin? I want to try to freeze some yeast samples using
glycerol but have not had any luck finding it anywhere-I've
tried all the local drugstores and nothing.
Any help in finding it would be appreciated and or any comments
on how well this has worked for anyone else.
TIA
Mark Elliott in the colder part of OHIO (NE)
Return to table of contents
Date-Warning: Date header was inserted by ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu
From: grosbl at ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu (Bryan Gros)
Subject: priming with honey
Scott J. Mindrebo" <dmindreb at gator1.brazosport.cc.tx.us> wrote:
> While brewing a Nut Brown Ale, A honey bee would not let me
>increase the flow rate of my sparge. I thought it was an omen
>so I primed this batch with a cup of Honey.
Hopefully this was a 10 gallon batch, or you're looking at
an overcarbonated beer.!
- Bryan
grosbl at ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 11:46:10 +0100
From: saunderm at vt.edu (Matthew Saunders)
Subject: Harvesting Yeast Beasties.
Collective,
I'm looking at harvesting and re-using yeast beasties. I've read a fair
amount here and in different books. I have conflicting info. Would some
of you folks give me a step by step procedure for doing this? TIA.
Cheers!
Matthew.
Private email is prefered. I'll post a consensus.
M.
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|M U S T A R D J E T S W A N E H A S M E | |
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Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 08:40:47 -0800
From: jfrane at teleport.com (Jeff Frane)
Subject: Re: open fermentation and aeration redux again/Klages
Barry M Wertheimer wrote:
>Jeff Frane wrote:
>
>>I sanitize a stainless steel kitchen whip, lean into the fermenter and
>>beat the wort into a froth
>
>Sounds a little kinky. Seriously, what is the size of the whip? If it
>is the sort of device I am thinking of (for whipping cream, etc.), it
>wouldn't go very deep into the wort (I think I am thinking of a whisk; is
>a whip different?). Are you beating at the surface or
>am I off base? Also, curious whether this is the primary/sole means of
>aeration, or whether you also pump in air/oxygen?
>
I think whip and whisk are essentially identical; they come in a wide
variety of lengths, from a little three-incher to whips that are
four or five feet (for institutional soups, etc). This one is
probably 18 inches over-all. When you start whipping the wort,
you create a vortex and you can go pretty deeply indeed (especially
if you'r wearing rubber gloves, as I do). But I whip it at various
points during the run-in, from when there's a gallon or two in the
fermenter until it's full.
This is the *only* source of aeration; part of the purpose was
to avoid having to build some sort of pump device. It's good
exercise, too.
Ken Frampton >
>What, exactly is Klages malt? Is this a brand name or a style?
>If it's a brand name who is the malting company? If it's a style
>of malt what is the difference between it and pale malt?
>
Klages is (or was) a variety of *barley*, from which malt is
made. At one time, it was the primary variety of western
malting barley, but has apparently been supplanted by Harringtons.
- --Jeff Frane
Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 9:55:15 MST
From: Jeff Benjamin <benji at hpfcbug.fc.hp.com>
Subject: More stupid homebrewer tricks
Seems there's always a spot in HBD for homebrew foibles. The following
is an actual entry from the log of a brew I made a few years ago:
"Do NOT pour sparge water on your hand!"
Ouch. Homebrewing can be painful.
- --
Jeff Benjamin benji at fc.hp.com
Hewlett Packard Co. Fort Collins, Colorado
"Think! It ain't illegal yet." -- George Clinton
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Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 11:57:23 EST
From: John DeCarlo <jdecarlo at mitre.org>
Subject: Dark Candi Sugar and Caramelized Sucrose
I may be way off-base on this, as the last time I tasted dark Belgian candi
sugar was years ago.
But, I don't recall *any* caramel taste in dark candi sugar. Thus, it seems
unlikely to me that *caramelized* sucrose (table sugar) will be at all
equivalent.
If I am not mistaken, dark candi sugar is used in Belgium to add color and
not much flavor. In fact, many breweries apparently use light candi sugar
and a special extract to add color, as it is more easily controlled and the
results are the same.
It goes without saying that corrections will show up soon. <grin>
John DeCarlo, MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA--My views are my own
Fidonet: 1:109/131 Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org
Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 12:07:05 -0500
From: Bob McCowan <bob.mccowan at cfrp.varian.com>
Subject: PU Yeast Strains, Re: First Decoction Attempt
I just used the PU "D" strain for a pilsener, and figure that there must be
strains A-C at least. Does anyone know what all the strains do, when they
are added to the ferment, and what strains are available. I'm told "B" is
available.
As far as decoctions go:
Have fun! - After my first decoction mash, I said "never again", until
I drank the beer! Then it was "maybe again". I have a decoction-mashed
pilsener fermenting now.
As far as your procedure goes, it looks straight out of Noonan. I've tried
using that mash schedule and I seem to have trouble getting enough
temperature rise
when recombining the boiler mash and the rest mash. I may be losing too much
heat from my igloo cooler (rest mash) when boiling the decoction. This time I
tried a 40-50-60-70 mash sequence with 40-50 done by infusion, and 50-60 and
60-70 done by decoction It went a little smoother with fewer last-minute
temperature adjustments. While adding the decoction back in, keep the flame
on the decoction kettle, otherwise the temp will drop rapidly in the boiler
mash, you wont be adding boiling-temp mash, and you wont get the temp rise
you need.
If your experience is like mine, you'll get higher extraction efficiency
from the decoction mash than your infusion mash. Last time I got 32 pts/lb.
I never get that with infustions. In fact, with 11 lbs for 5 gallons you may
have too much grain and end up with a bock. The grain bed will be much more
compact in the lauter tun. 9 lbs of grain came up unly to the 2 gal mark on
a five gal igloo (using a homemade easymasher-like system, so the grain goes
to the bottom of the tun.
Be prepared for two things - temperature adjustments and a long brew day;
I've found that final starch conversion can be slow.
Bob
Bob McCowan
bob.mccowan at cfrp.varian.com
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Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 12:21:57 -0500 (EST)
From: waterr at rpi.edu (Bob Waterfall)
Subject: Honey Bees/newbie kegger CO2/open fermenter aeration
Scott J. Mindrebo says in HBD1939:
>I also had the same experience two weeks ago :') While brewing a Nut Brown
>Ale, A honey bee would not let me increase the flow rate of my sparge. I
>would chase it away and seconds later it would re-land on my flow regulator.
I was helping out serving beer at an outdoor event a couple of years ago and
the beer distributor tied anti-static clothes dryer towels (Bounce?) to the
tap handles to keep the bees away. It seemed to work, since the bees were
swarming around the unprotected soda kegs about 20 feet away and pretty much
ignoring us.
I haven't had occasion to test this out for myself since then.
- ------------
Flinsch, Alex says:
><snip>...I decided to test out the keg by making plain
>old seltzer water. I filled the keg to about 1 1/2 inches from the gas in
>tube, put it in the fridge and hit it with about 25 psi until I heard the
>gas stop running, then turned it down to 10 psi and left it on. Early this
>morning I decided to check on it before coming to work, Highly carbonated
>into the glass but went flat almost instantly. Looking at the gas gauges it
>seems that the high pressure guage dropped from 800 psi to just under 400
>psi, and was now reading in the "Order Gas Now" range on the dial.
>
>Now the questions -
>Is the gauge temp sensitive (reading lower after being chilled overnight)
Maybe a little, there was some discussion of that point here last year but I
don't remember the outcome. More important is the fact that as you chill
down your CO2 tank some of the gaseous CO2 headspace condenses to a liquid
and reduces the pressure in the tank. At 6degC (43F), the vapor pressure of
CO2 is about 590 psia or 575 psig (gauge pressure). At 22.4C (72.3F) it's
about 735 psia. So that would account for MOST of the pressure drop in your
tank. In order to get down to 400 psig, your temperature would have to be
around -10C (+14F) for a tank with any liquid left in it.
>DIHAGL/IMTE (do I have a gas leak/is my tank empty) ? I don't think so,
>since I checked all of the fittings with soapy water before putting the
>whole thing into the fridge.
>
>When force carbonating should I leave the gas on, or hit it with pressure
>then turn it off.
>
>Anyway I turned off the gas and am letting it sit until I get home tonight.
I've found that slow leaks can be slow enough that you can't hear the gas
flowing through the regulator. So I always pressurize my kegs a shoy at a
time and give them another shot every few beers to keep the carbonation
where I want it. I also picked up a pressure gauge on a gas in connector to
test the pressure in kegs that are sitting around for a while. On a related
topic, I haven't lengthened my serving hoses yet but longer or smaller ID
hoses allow you to maintain a higher pressure in the keg without having the
beer come out the faucet like a firehose.
- -----------
Barry M Wertheimer asks about Jeff Frane beating his open fermenter:
>Are you beating at the surface or
>am I off base? Also, curious whether this is the primary/sole means of
>aeration, or whether you also pump in air/oxygen?
I can't speak for Jeff and I've never open fermented, but as a sometime
saltwater aquarist I can say that the aeration you get in a fishtank is
mostly from the changeover of water being brought to the surface and not
from the bubbles formed by some filter pumps. My system doesn't create any
bubbles and maintains enough dissolved oxygen to support the fish no
problem. I figure the same applies to wort in a fermenter, ie. you don't
need to pump in air but it probably wouldn't hurt.
Happy Brewing,
Bob Waterfall
waterr at rpi.edu
Troy, NY, USA
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Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 12:22:58 PST
From: Rob Emenecker <remenecker at cadmus.com>
Subject: Styrofoam?!?!?!?
At the risk of getting flamed, or starting a lengthy thread more related to
physics, chemistry and pathology than beer, I am going to ask a question.
Over the past few months there have been several intermittent mentions of
using styrofoam as a floatation device in both kegs and fermenters. As a
child it was routinely beat into my head that styrofoam is poisonous (read
TOXIC). Was I lied to? If not, doesn't anyone care about using this stuff?
Can it really be food grade?
Well gotta go know. My asbestos line mash tun needs a stirrin'.
- --Rob
P.S. Has anyone ever considered calling Dick Clark or Ed McMahon and having
them do a "Best of the HBD Bloopers". BTW, I can't recall the person who
posted it, but I would be interested in how the DMS primed batch of brew is
doing ;)
****************************************************************************
| (remenecker at cadmus.com) | (RobEmnckr at aol.com) |
| Cadmus Journal Services, Inc. | Brewery Manager, Standing Rock Brewery |
| Linthicum, Maryland 21090 | Proud Purveyors of "Hairy Dog Homebrew"! |
| 410-691-6454 / 684-2793 (fax) | (410) 859-9169 (voice only) |
****************************************************************************
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Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 09:38:04 +8
From: "Kevin Imel" <kimel at moscow.com>
Subject: Hopping Coffee
Hi Gang!
I have gotten so many responses to my comment about adding hops to
coffee that I figured I might as well post my answer here and save
some time and effort.
I believe that this issue has previously been covered on HBD or in
rec.crafts.brewing but here goes anyway.
For a 10-12 cup pot of coffee I generally use 5-7 flowers depending
on the type of hop, the age of the hop (ie: how fresh it is), and
taste. I like Mt. Hood and Fuggles but that is just me. I have used
as much as 15 flowers per pot (which makes for a FULL filter basket
but I didn't have any problems with overflow). I have read of people
using pellets but since I don't use them for brewing I have never had
any around to try.
In my experience, hopped coffee works best with a full bodied brew
that doesn't have any other flavors added (ie: vanilla, irish creme,
etc.). French Roast is a good place to start and then work around
from there.
Also, I had been using a gold plated mesh filter up until recently
(when an unfortunate accident ruined my filter) and have now switched
to paper filters until I can locate another gold filter. The gold
filter left much more hop flavor and aroma in the coffee than does
the paper filter. I have tried both "natural" and bleached paper
filters and neither does the job as well as a gold filter.
There you go...brew on!
Cheers!
Kevin
___________________________
Kevin Imel
kimel at moscow.com kimel at vetmed.wsu.edu
Palouse, Washinington USA
"The only way to truely fail is to fail to try"
For a copy of my pgp public key send message with subject "SEND PGP KEY"
Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 10:22:22 EST
From: "Tom Williams" <Tom_Williams at ccmail.eo.ray.com>
Subject:
In HBD #1939 aflinsch at njebmail.attmail.com (Flinsch, Alex) wrote:
> Looking at the gas gauges it seems that the high pressure gauge dropped
> from 800 psi to just under 400 psi, and was now reading in the "Order Gas
> Now" range on the dial.
>
> Now the questions -
> Is the gauge temp sensitive (reading lower after being chilled overnight)
You didn't specify whether you put the CO2 bottle in the fridge, but I'm
guessing you did. CO2 is sold in liquid form, and as you use gas from the
bottle, some of the liquid CO2 vaporizes (boils) to replace what you used.
During this process, the pressure in the bottle stays at the saturation
pressure, which varies with temperature. According to my CO2 chart,
saturation temperature corresponding to 800 psi is about 65 F. If you
lower the temperature of the bottle to, say, 35 F, the saturation pressure
drops to 550 psi.
This is the same principle by which we know that water boils at a lower
temperature at high altitudes (lower atmospheric pressure, hence lower
saturation temperature).
Weight is a better method of judging when more CO2 is needed. CO2 fire
extinguishers have the empty weight stamped on the bottle, so you can tell
how much CO2 is in them with a scale.
If you didn't put the CO2 bottle in the fridge, then ...Never mind!
Tom Williams Raytheon Engineers & Constructors
twilliams at ccgate.ueci.com Norcross, Georgia, USA
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Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 12:04:00 PST
From: "Goodale, Daniel CPT 4ID DISCOM" <GoodaleD at hood-03.army.mil>
Subject: Sagebrush, Lagers, and Mead Carbonation
Dear Collective Intelligence,
1. I did not get any e-mail on suggestions on how to use
sagebrush powder that I found in a Korean grocery shop.
However, I was warned about the strong laxative effect
that sagebrush tea can have (in the form of a very funny
"run for the border" story). I've decided to try an
experiment with a nondescript pale ale divided into
five one gallon batches broken down as follows:
a. The control with a normal hopping
schedule (dry hopped).
b. One "bittered" with sagebrush (2 Tbls)
and dry hopped.
c. One bittered with hops and dry "saged"
d. One "bittered" and dry "hopped" with
sagebrush powder.
e. One "bittered" and dry "hopped" with
twice as much as in d.
It may be just a waste of money, but its all in the name
of science (I'm sure it will make a good insecticide if
nothing else).
2. I've decided to use my refrigerator as a lagering
refrigerator as I only keep beer and some six month
old eggs (I might have a jar of mustard or something).
An unexpected advantage of a bachelor diet. I've
tested it and it can get to 50 degrees Fahrenheit. What
pitfalls am I overlooking here?
3. I've got a sweet mead in the fermenter now and am
concerned about carbonation. The way I understand
it, the yeast gives up early due to high alcohol
concentration leaving some sugar for sweetness.
I don't see how adding priming sugar will cause
carbonation as there is already more than enough
sugar to eat. Unless I add the sugar with enough
water to dilute the alcohol concentration? Am I
off base here or have I balked. I repeat that I'm just
concerned, not worried.
###########################################
Give the gift that keeps on giving, VX!
Your Acetylcholinesterase will never know what
hit it.
CPT Goodale
###########################################
Return to table of contents
Date: 19 Jan 96 10:50:43 MST (Fri)
From: rcd at raven.eklektix.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: re: Chartreuse...
Douglas Thomas <thomasd at uchastings.edu> wrote about a "Chartreuse recipe
from Fortunes in formulas":
> Fresh balm mint herbs-------64 parts
...etc...
"Balm mint herbs" is a phrase sure to confuse brewer, gardener, and
herbalist alike. Regardless of what was actually intended there,
Chartreuse isn't at all mint-like. One of the predominant flavors of
Chartreuse is basil, apparently extracted from fresh leaves (since the
flavors of fresh and dried basil are entirely different).
[Fresh sweet basil makes a very interesting mead. I wonder if it might
not add an interesting character to a lighter summer beer, perhaps a wheat
beer. My experiments with it in mead suggested adding the leaves to a
fermentation already under way, and leaving them only for a day or so.]
The recipe lists five other ingredients. Based on those few ingredients,
it will probably make an interesting liqueur in its own right, but will
fall far short of anything like Chartreuse--which is most notable for the
complexity of flavors it contains.
> The genuine chartreuse comes in three different colors, viz, green, white
> and yellow...
Douglas - I think you've got a bad source of information. Chartreuse comes
in two colors (yellow and green) and in two grades (regular and "VEP") in
each color...although I've never found VEP yellow in the US.
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd at talisman.com -or- raven!rcd Boulder, Colorado USA
...Simpler is better.
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Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 21:49:05 +1100
From: pittock at rsbs-central.anu.edu.au (chris pittock)
Subject: Thydrometer (TM)
KennyEddy at aol.com wrote:
>
>...But another feature which would be great is to have a hydrometer and
>>thermometer in one unit...[snip] Perhaps there would even be room for a
>>correction table on the unit...
Fear not! The all-in-one "thydrometer"(TM?!) exists! I snaffled one in a
bunch of gear I bought from a guy who moved overseas... haven't used it,
but it may lack thermal transfer efficiency (the thermometer is mounted on
cardboard inside the main bulb of the hydrometer). It was bought here in
Canberra, Australia. If you are keen for details - get back to me. As for
correction tables - why not just have a self-correcting hydrometer - like a
pH meter that corrects for temperature... "we have the technology to
rebuild him"!?
Chris.
Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 08:04:56 -0500 (EST)
From: ejk at bselab.bls.com (Evan Kraus)
Subject: Plastic Hydrometer/RIMS Heater pipe/Open Ferment
Plastic Hydrometer
If your looking fro the indestructible hydrometer Cole Plame sells
one for $37
Specific Gravity Range Division
H-08265-00 1.000 to 1.220 .002
Brix
H-08266-08 0 to 35% 0.5%
Telephone# (800)323-4340
- ---------
RIMS Heater Pipe
All of the parts to make an enclosure out of 304 or 316 Stainless are
avilable from McMaster-Carr Supply.
The procedure is simple all the connections are threaded and the
only tools needed are 2 large Channel Lock pliers. The only
problem is cost. Parts are also available from your local plumbing
supply just check your yellow pages. There are also Pipe and Valve supply
companys that sell the fittings and pipe, some also will cut and thread
appropriate size nipple for U.
- -------------
Open Ferment
After meeting Jim Busch at the AHA Confrence and several emails
later I took a keg cut the top off and now ferment reguraly
ferment in it. I have a plasitc lid than normally during
a vigarous ferment will get lifted off the fermenteg 3" to 5" by the krausen.
After my first open ferment I haven't done any more 10 gallon
batches in 2 5gal Craboys and ther is definately a differenc in the
flavor of the finished product.
- --
ejk at bselab.bls.com
Evan Kraus
BellSouth Wirless
(404) 713-1111 Voice & Fax
Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 10:40:28 -0500
From: Chris Strickland <cstrick at iu.net>
Subject: Micro Brewery Sites in NC/VA
I'm going on vacation to Williamsburg VA, and Ashville NC next summer. Does
anyone know of any good micro-brewies around these areas?
- --------------
Chris Strickland
cstrick at iu.net
http://www.teg.saic.com/mote/people.html
Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 96 09:08 PST
From: robtrish at mindlink.bc.ca (Rob Lauriston)
Subject: copper and oxidation
A while back Steve Gravel mentioned copper dissolved into the beer from the
chiller:
"As for taste in your beer, you probably won't detect any
off-flavors in your brew, I didn't. It has been said that the yeast
reproduce better with a little copper in the wort anyway. The old
time brewers (and some of todays brewers) used huge copper vats. Some
brewers cut off a few pieces of the copper tube and add them to the
brew pot during the boil to help control the boil and add a little
copper to assist in yeast growth."
A new one on me was the mention of copper in Nick Huige's article on Beer
Oxidation in the American Chemical Society's book, "Beer and Wine
Production". George Fix reviewed the book favourably in BT, and I've been
especially enlightened by Huige's chapter. Anyway, with respect to copper,
it is not advised as a material of construction when one is *absolutely*
seeking to minimize the potential for oxidation of the beer. However, I
know that I do not want to produce beer which is going to sit around for
more than two or three months -- my objective is actually to brew enough so
that the beer ages for one month! There is no way I'm going to junk my
present copper counterflow chiller.
Soldering new copper is almost as neat as running new electricity or cooling
in fresh wort!
- -- Rob
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Date: Sat, 20 Jan 96 12:31:58 EST
From: jwc at med.unc.edu (John W. Carpenter)
Subject: another CO data point
Last weekend I brewed a batch in my garage (24' X 25') with one of the 2
car doors open. My 135,000 BTU burner was about 6' from the other end of
the garage (away from the door). I used the Nighthawk 2000 digital
read-out CO detector placed just a couple of feet from the burner. The
burner was wide open during the initial heating of sparge water and the
beginning of the boil. At no time did I notice the readout going above 0.
I was pleasantly surprised, FWIW.
John - jwc at med.unc.edu
* Never Trust a Brewer with an inseam larger than his waistline. *
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