---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Silicates (Pierre Jelenc)
  rotten egg odor during bottle conditioning? (Mike Uchima)
  Learned Alot About Grain.... (usbscrhc)
  Bottles (PET, twistoff) (Russell Mast)
  Optimum Temp for Yeasts (Michael K. Cinibulk)
  Brew-Pubs (Brian Dreckshage)
  Mushrooms in pilsner ??? (Steve Alexander)
  Rye in my beer ("Taber, Bruce")
  Re: Dishwasher Sanitation, High FGs (James M. Glenn)
  Amber Ale diversifies... (Hugh Graham)
  Interjection on mini kegs... (pbabcock.ford)
  New BreWater 1.05 ZIP FIle -- Installation Problems (KennyEddy)
  Lovibond Color (Brian S Kuhl)
  Copyrights. (Russell Mast)
  FWH, All-grain, variety (Neal Christensen)
  Wyeast attenuation (Algis R Korzonas)
  Water problems (Raymond Louvier)
  keeping my cool (Clay Crenshaw)
  RE: Taking the all grain plunge (Robert Servranckx)
  RE: Distillation (Art Steinmetz)
  M&F mailing address (Gregory King)
  Re: Iodophor/Thanks (Mark Kuebeler)
  Additives and Behaviour (Tom Fitzpatrick)
  NA Brewing (KennyEddy)
  Request recipe for Murphy's stout ("David Elm")
  Born again grain brewers (John Wilkinson)
  Beer in Carboy (George Hoenninger)
  100-year-old homebrew--top that! (from Carl Etnier) (Russell Mast)
  Filtering, cont (Jim Busch)
  Extraction efficiency pts/#/gall etc. (Ian Smith)
  Another PBW comment (Charles D. Ewen)
  Needed: Armchair analysis ("Frederick L. Pauly")
  Re: Iodophor/Thanks (hollen)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 28 Mar 96 10:25:20 EST
From: Pierre Jelenc <pcj1 at columbia.edu>
Subject: Silicates

in HOMEBREW Digest #1996 korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas) asks:

>                                 the formula has changed and now it is
> made primarily of Sodium Metasilicate.  Hmmm...  I don't know enough
> chemistry to tell you if that, mixed with water, will make a sanitizer,
> but I suspect it won't.  Could some chemists chime in and verify this?

Silicates are at best weak detergents (they "keep dirt in suspension" in 
laundry formulations); they are also strongly alkaline.

Quite frankly, I don't think sodium metasilicate by itself would be of 
much value in either cleaning or sanitizing, certainly not any better 
than sodium carbonate.

If there are other, non-inert, ingredients the story would be different, 
of course.

Pierre

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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 09:45:52 -0600
From: uchima at fncrd8.fnal.gov (Mike Uchima)
Subject: rotten egg odor during bottle conditioning?

Bottled a "Steam Doppelbock" nearly two weeks ago (brewed with the Wyeast 2112
California Lager). Smelled fine at bottling time, and tasted pretty good. Just
out of curiosity, I popped one open a couple of nights ago, to see how it was
doing. It had a moderate amount of carbonation, and a pronounced "rotten egg"
odor.

Now, I know that some yeasts can produce this odor during primary
fermentation; but it smelled clean at bottling time. Is it possible that the
sulfury odor resulted from the *bottle* fermentation? Will it go away once the
bottles are properly aged? Or do I need to rename my Steam Doppelbock to
something more appropriate -- like "Stinkerator"?

- -- Mike Uchima
- -- uchima at fncrd8.fnal.gov

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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 11:45:59 EST
From: usbscrhc at ibmmail.com
Subject: Learned Alot About Grain....

  
Thanks to all who responded about my extract vs. grain question. Didn't mean
to start a giant debate...For all other extract brewers who don't know much
about all-grain, I thought I'd summarize:
Most answers were identical and practical. Big plus with grain is the 'control'
you get over all the variables. Big minus is the time it takes. I did, however,
learn all about the process and it sounds fairly simple. Cost is also less,
but equipment may cost you in the beginning.
For the record, I use lots of grains to add variety to my extracts, and, as
I said previously, am happy with the results. I'm sticking to extract, but
may do an official 'partial mash' sometime soon.
One more comment: I read about all kinds of sugars and creative additions
to extracts on the digest, but haven't seen one that I thought I'd mention.
For my last batch I was out of honey and used Maple Syrup (pure Vermont).
I didn't overdo it and don't know if I even got the full effect, but it was
a primo ale...Thanks to all for what I learned. It's a great forum.
Howard - Baltimore
  

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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 11:27:22 -0600
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Bottles (PET, twistoff)


Shawn Scolack asks about PET bottles.  

Basically, they work great.  I've never tried to re-use them more than once,
so I can't comment on that.  I can say, without a doubt, that they will not
work well if you don't drink the beer within 3 months or so.  Use these for 
your fast-maturing ales.  I had one batch that went for over a year in a 
couple glass bottles and one in a PET bottle.  The PET was totally roasted,
oxidized to hell.  The glass was fine.  But, at 1 month, the same batch (in
different bottles) was fine in both.  

Stephen Palmer asks about twist-off bottles.

I've used them a couple times.  They tend to break and leak more easily, and 
are generally a pain.  If you can make them work for you, go for it.

>  Am I just lucky, or are failures few and far between? 

I had about a 10% failure rate with them.  Even a 1% is highger than I like.

> I figure if I have one failure       
> every couple of batches, thats acceptable compared to $15 a case for 
bottles    
> from my supplier...   

Shop around - you can find cheaper non-twist off bottles.  (Or just drink beer
from them.)

 -R

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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 96 13:26:48 -0500
From: Michael K. Cinibulk <cinibumk at ml.wpafb.af.mil>
Subject: Optimum Temp for Yeasts

I have seen the FAQ on yeast posted at The Brewery, and it contains a list of 
Wyeast strains and some of their characteristics.  But, I would like to know 
what the optimum temperature for fermentation is for the various strains.  
Anyone have this information?

BTW, I tried American Ale II this weekend in a 1.056 OG American Pale Ale at 
70 F (500 mL starter); now I know what is meant by explosive fermentation.  
Foam and yeast came spouting out of the hole in the fermentation lid once the 
air lock was removed!  This is my first time using either of the American ale 
yeasts.  Is fermentation always this active and rapid?  I'm comparing with  
#1968 London ESB, the only other ale yeast I've used.

Also, I never saw the answer, how _do_ you pronouce Wyeast?

Mike Cinibulk
Bellbrook Ohio
   

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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 96 12:59:09 -0600
From: dreckash at ocdis01.tinker.af.mil (Brian Dreckshage)
Subject: Brew-Pubs

Las Vegas had one Brew Pub when I was there last fall.  The "Holy Cow"
Brew Pub/Casino did have a good selection of decent beer.  You'll need
to take a cab there (or drive) because the location is a bit out of
the way from the strip (no big deal).

Orange County has a number of good beer establishments.  As mentioned
"Goat Hill" has an awsome selection and just experiencing the place is
worth the trip.  Not far from there is a great little pub...good
English beer on tap and good food.  I just can't remember the name but
they are normally listed in the "Celebrator".  Also, Huntington Beach
had a very good Brew Pub, just up from the pier.

FYI, had a disappointing experience in Key West recently.  Kellie's
Brew Pub turned away a number of us beer hunters (after a long trip to
there).  It was odd, they were having a private party in the back but
wouldn't serve us one stinking, single beer from their front bar.
(They had plenty of employees around--what a bunch of jerks!)

Happy hunting!

Brian D. from the great beer wasteland of Oklahoma.

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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 14:22:49 -0500
From: Steve Alexander <stevea at clv.mcd.mot.com>
Subject: Mushrooms in pilsner ???

Al Stevens writes ...

>I think someone is pulling my leg. 
 ...
>He then said it couldn't be a real pilsner unless it had pilsner mushrooms in
>it. He said that in the hills around Pilsen, grow some strange mushrooms, and
>these are used in the beer.  I went along with it, but I think he was serious.
>Has anyone heard about this ?? or is this the start of another beer legend?

As an active amateur mycologist (and mushroom hunter) as well as a
homebrewer - I've never heard of this one.  I think he's misinformed
or pulling your leg.

If anyone is considering trying wild mushrooms in their brew (or in a
skillet) my suggestion is to get a POSITIVE identification from an
EXPERIENCED MYCOLOGIST.  A substantial proportion of the mushrooms you
are likely to come across are poisonous.  There are also quite a few
species of Coprinius mushrooms that contain a chemical that will cause
a problem (flushing, nausea, vomiting, possibly death) only if you
drink alcohol within a few days after consuming the mushrooms! [My
recollection is that the Coprinius tie-up or inactivate some of the
enzymes that break down alcohol in your system.] There are several
mushroom books in the bookstores that have incomplete, and in one case
dangerously erroneous information regarding mushroom identification.
Even with a good book, accurate identification requires practice.  We
all have better uses for our livers than having them destroyed by
cyclopeptides from an Amanita.

*** End of Public Service Announcement *** Back to brewing ***

Stevea

BTW there is some nice info & images on 'http://www.ijs.si/gobe/' re
wild mushrooms in eastern europe (Slovenia).

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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 96 09:13:00 EST
From: "Taber, Bruce" <BRUCE.TABER at NRC.CA>
Subject: Rye in my beer


     A few days ago I asked for suggestions on how to give my "lite" ale 
(all-grain) a "red" hue.  The good people of the digest gave me a few 
suggestions and one of them intrigues me.  Steve Alexander mentioned that 
rye will give a very red color, even a pink hue to the head.  He mentions 
that it will impart a flavor, but I love to try different things.
     Can anyone give me pointers on using rye?  I would like a reddish color 
contribution with only a limited flavor contribution.  Also, if I can't find 
malted rye can I use unmalted and boil it for say, 30 minutes to gelatinize 
it?
     TIA,
Bruce Taber
Almonte, Ont.
taber at irc.lan.nrc.ca

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Date-Warning: Date header was inserted by grove.iup.edu
From: jmglenn at grove.iup.edu (James M. Glenn)
Subject: Re: Dishwasher Sanitation, High FGs

In answer to Jon Vilhauer's original, and supplementing Steve Rosenzweig's
followup on dishwashers:

After about my third batch, I knew that the bottling process was getting in
the way of my total enjoyment of this more-than-a-little-fascinating hobby
 - more specifically, WASHING the durned things. I resolved to find a better
way, and the dishwasher was the answer.

Convincing my significant other wasn't TOO difficult; the bottles were only
the "oh, by the way" addition. Since she works out of our home, and doesn't
particularly like washing dishes anyway... So we acquired a new Kenmore
Ultrawash III portable.

I remove the top rack and the center spraywater carrier and load two cases
plus four, add a half cup of bleach to the prewash and fire that brother
up, using 150-degree water.

Twelve batches later, I'm totally convinced that it works BETTER than any
other method. The spray definitely gets up inside the bottles. And the
labels on Saranac Black & Tan bottles come right off, too.

RE: previous questions on my high OG / high FG - I found that my brew
thermometer was eleven degrees off, and my partial mashes were therefore
much to high, resulting in (I now assume) extra-dextrinous/tannin-filled
worts. They're aging into near-drinkability now, but my scotch ales and
porters of that period are as heavy as heavy stouts, and the stout is
danged near bulletproof. 'Spose if I save it til next Xmas, we can slice
off chunks and spread it on toast! My, what a great learning process this
has all been! Later beers, with a recalibrated instrument, have adequately
high, predictable OGs that get down to the FG 1.010-1.015 area where
they're supposed to be. I think I fixed THAT problem - on to the next!

====>James Glenn



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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 13:40:19 -0700 (MST)
From: Hugh Graham <hugh at lamar.ColoState.EDU>
Subject: Amber Ale diversifies...


Had a pleasant trip to central Washington state recently. The tourist, er,
I mean ranchin', huntin' fishin' 'n minin' town of Winthrop has a pleasant
brewpub with the tiniest frontage of any establishment of the kind that I
have yet encountered.  The porter, red, pale ale and A.N. other beer were
all just fine and, as it was Hyakatuke night, I was seeing stars all night
long, far from the city lights. Check it out next time you're East of the
Cascades. 

Anyway, next day it was off to Roslyn and a swift pint in the Brick.
The Roslyn Brewing company shows minimal beer name creativity and we had 
a choice between the Amber or the Dark.  Both were drinkable to say
the least.

But the Amber!  This had clearly been brewed with the specific intention
of messing with Dave Brockington's proposed new Amber ale classification,
(recent HBD, :)).  It was very pale, yellow to straw colored with
noticeable hop flavor. Unfortunately the brewery itself was not open (Sat
and Sun afternoons only) so details are limited to my unqualified
assessment and impaired memory but I found it intriguing that this beer was
termed an Amber, from the color alone.  Maybe they'd hooked up the wrong
barrel.. .  .  

Hugh

The Outhouse Brewery currently is idle, except for Sideshow Melomel in 
the fermenter that follows tertiary.  (Quaternary I assume). 
Yerpean Ale Yeast is being propagated for the weekend for a pale ale.
A barleywine is being planned.  And it's wheat beer brewin' time.


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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 16:02:44 EST
From: pbabcock.ford at e-mail.com
Subject: Interjection on mini kegs...

                                                                                
Pat Babcock             Internet: pbabcock.ford at e-mail.com                      
Bronco Plant Vehicle Team - Body Construction Assembly Engineer                 
Subject: Interjection on mini kegs...                                           
Hola, Cervesa-lings! Lleva me al puerta Negra Modelo...                         
(Or something like that...)                                                     
                                                                                
Ever notice the "taps" most stores sell WITH the mini kegs? A faucet and a can  
opener. You push the faucet in the bung, invert and puncture the keg (Yes, the  
Beer Kings are for us beer geeks. Most DESTROY the can in tapping it.)          
                                                                                
Being that the intent is to destroy the "big can" in emptying it, I feel no     
more guilt keeping them for the deposit than I would an aluminum Budweiser      
(Eegads! It even puts a foul taste in the mouth by TYPING it!) can.             
                                                                                
  See ya!                                                                       
  -p                                                                            
  pbabcock at oeonline.com                                                         
                                                                                
(No copyright desired, intended or possible. Anyone who sez I said this is a    
liar. And obviously drinks inferior beer. Remember: Automated flame operator    
at 1-800-SWIG-BUD)                                                              
Copyright 1996 Rutwoessesetwoells Thingthatkeepsthesailoffofthedeck             
                                                                                

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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 17:50:10 -0500
From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Subject: New BreWater 1.05 ZIP FIle -- Installation Problems

After receiving reports of installation results varying from totally
successful to complete failure, I've modified the SETUP.EXE to do as simple
as installation as possible.  If you had trouble installing BreWater and
would like to try again, download the new (smaller!) ZIP file from the same
URL:

ftp://users.aol.com/kennyeddy/water/brewater.zip               (~46K bytes)

Unzip the file into any "temporary" directory or floppy and run SETUP.EXE

Your \windows\system directory still needs VBRUN300.DLL.  CMDIALOG.VBX (a
Visual Basic library) is copied to your \windows\system directory, but no
other files are.

Should you for some reason still have trouble, you can try a "manual
installation" by copying all the files into a new directory "c:\brewater" or
whatever.  SETUP.EXE can be discarded, and CMDIALOG.VBX should be move into
\windows\system.  Then manually create a program group/item.  The executable
is BREWATER.EXE.

I apologize for any inconveniences you may have encountered.  This latest ZIP
file should solve those install problems.

Ken

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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 96 15:00:00 PST
From: Brian S Kuhl <Brian_S_Kuhl at ccm.fm.intel.com>
Subject: Lovibond Color

Does anybody have a spreadsheet containing Lovibond color ratings of 
BOTH beer types AND Extracts of all types and various manufactures?
On my first two batches, it was difficult to even get a close result 
between the canned stuff and bulk of the same manufacturer.
IBU numbers for various beer types would also be appreciated.

Mail to : Brian_S_Kuhl at ccm.fm.intel.com

Thanks!

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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 17:29:35 -0600
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Copyrights.


Al - I tried to send you e-mail in response to your letter about my copyright
notice, but it bounced.  Did you get my letter?  Is there another address I
can reach you at?

 -Russell Mast
Copyright 1996 Algissimo Korzonas

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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 16:33:52 -0700
From: nealc at selway.umt.edu (Neal Christensen)
Subject: FWH, All-grain, variety

I have one more question on first wort hopping (sorry).  Someone earlier
mentioned that a lot of folks apply heat to the wort kettle as soon as they
have sparged enough to cover the bottom.  I start to heat gently about a
quarter full, and start to boil at three-quarter full.  I add my first
bitter hops at full and boil for one hour from there.  The advantages are:
no lag time to boil - when I sparge off, I'm boiling; the other advantage is
the extra boil time at the beginning to form hot break.  So, to at least
maintain the first advantage, how hot is too hot for the FWH soak - should I
not apply any heat?  And, How much time is adequate for soaking before I get
serious about heating the wort?

On all-grain:  For me the switch from extract to all-grain improved the
product.  Reasons could include: experience, better control of the process
through better equipment, better control of the recipe, etc.  I'm not sure
of the exact reasons, but it got better.  I do notice a typical flavor in a
lot of extract beers - even in commercial examples.  We have a BOP that also
sells to the public.  They only do extracts so far, but I would think they
have better equipment than almost any homebrewer.  Yet when compared to the
two local commercial breweries, I detect a persistent flavor profile that I
don't notice in either all-grain micro (one lager and one ale).  I don't
think it is a bad taste, just different than the all-grain beers that I am
familiar with.

On variety in recipes:  Kelly Heflin mentioned the lack of choice in local
grain selection and wandered about more variety.  Russell Mast offered many
good suggestions for additional ingredients that can be added to beer to
affect results.  I agree and recommend exploring all possibilities.
However, I personally enjoy the challenge of varying the results of my
brewing while limiting myself to following the old German brewing purity law
(no affiliation, bla, bla :^) using only the basic four ingredients.  This
does not allow one to brew all styles of beer and does not fit with
everyone's idea of a good time, but I like the results.  Its amazing how
much variation can be achieved while limiting ingredients to the basics.  I
think it helps me to learn to brew by limiting the factors that affect
flavor, and by limiting my options for solving problems (i.e. clarity, water
chemistry, enzymes, carbonation).

Neal 


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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 96 10:58:59 CST
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: Wyeast attenuation

In a recent post, I said that Wyeast "European Ale" (#1338) is their
least attenuative yeast.  Well, yes and no.  In a brochure I got
just yesterday, Wyeast #1968 "London ESB" is listed with the same
apparent attenuation: 67-71%.  Furthermore, "Belgian Lambic blend"
is listed with an apparent attenuation of 65-75%.

Just wanted to be accurate and compleat...

Al.

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Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 16:15:14 -0800
From: rlouvier at ix.netcom.com (Raymond Louvier)
Subject: Water problems

Hello all, I have a question I hope some of you chemistry majors can 
help me with. I have been tryin to brew lighter beers such as American 
light lager or actually I'm interested in brewing many light lagers, 
but I seem to not get it right. As far as I can tell my water is very 
high in bicarbonates but low in calcium. I've been trying to boil the 
water to remove the carbonates but while reading Dave Millers book the 
other night I read where you must have the right amount of calcium to 
precipitate out the carbonates. I just received a report from the city 
of Houston Water Department and here is the results: All are in PPM

Silica    12         Sulfate      14        Phosphate         <.1   
Calcium   33         Chloride     28       
Magnesium 8.3        Carbonate     0            
Sodium    59         Bicarbonate 239 
Potassium 2.1        Nitrate     <.05
   
Total dissolved solids        395.2
Suspended solids                1.3
Total Alkalinity(CaCO3)         196 
Hardness as CaCO3               116              
pH                              7.8
Chlorine Residual               NR  (?)

Now I seem to have a bite to all my beers and I am wondering if I'm not 
getting any of the carbonates out from boiling and let sit over night. 
I'm really not sure about the permanent Hardness. I thought permanent 
hardness was carbonate and temporary hardness was bicarbonate but after 
experimenting on my own its obvious my chemistry lacks alot and I'm not 
sure which is which. I hope somebody from this great wealth of 
knowledge can explain this water problem in laymans terms. Also if I 
could be pointed in the right direction on what I need to do to my 
water to brew lighter beers. Thanks for all the help I've received just 
from reading this forum and I hope maybe I can get on the right track 
with this water. Private e-mail or post is fine. Again TIA.

Ray Louvier
rlouvier at ix.netcom.com
Houston, Texas Home of the fighting Memphis Oilers! Anybody out there 
from Memphis I hope You enjoy cause this Buds(Adams) for you.  Home H
 

         

 

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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 00:19:44 -0500
From: ccrenshaw at mail.utexas.edu (Clay Crenshaw)
Subject: keeping my cool

OK, guys, (and ladies), lets see what you pull out on this one...

My apartment hovers aroud 76-80 F, and I want to ferment at 65 F or so.
Besides investing in a THIRD refrigerator, does anyone have any creative,
or even obvious, solutions?  Cheap is preferred, but not absolutely
necessary.

Also, has anyone had much success with a "prechiller" (additional coil
immersed in ice bath) in an immersion-type chiller?  Also, when using an
immersion chiller, what kind of water pressure would be most efficient?  Is
fast-running water significantly more effective than slow-running water?

Thanks for your thoughts,
Clay


- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

             "Jazz is not dead...it just smells funny."  -Frank Zappa

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 08:40:59 -0800
From: Robert Servranckx <Robert_Ser at ceo.sts-systems.ca>
Subject: RE: Taking the all grain plunge

Matt in Montreal says:

>...What got me hooked was a friend of mine.  He volunteered to come to
>my house, bring any equipment I didn't have and show me how to do this
>thing.  In return, I supplied food and beer.  This worked like a charm.
>I couldn't believe how easy, and fun all grain was and I didn't have to
>worry.  I've since done this to someone else, who also became a convert.

Speaking as the guy who became the convert, I obviously have to second 
what Matt is saying :-). Matt also volunteered to come to my place, bring 
his equipment and knowledge, and show me how it was done in exchange for 
home-made pizza and homebrew (and homebrew, and homebrew... ;-). I was 
amazed to see how easy and fun it actually was.

I've been all-graining for over a year now, and I LOVE it. My brews are 
fuller, tastier and just plain better than before, and I find that I have
*much* more control over the taste of the final product. The initial 
investment to go from extract to all-grain can be as little as 40$ for
a home-made mash and lauter tun. You may of course spend more for a 
larger boiling kettle, a propane burner, wort-chiller, etc...

It takes me about 5.5 hours for an all-grain batch (up from 3.5 hours), but
this time is more fun and more relaxing than when I brewed with extract.

My average cost per 5 gallon batch has gone down from about 25$ to about
12$. In my case however, the increase in the taste and quality of my brew
is more important to me than the 13$ I save per batch.

Go ahead and give it a try.

Rob in Montreal
Robert_Ser at ceo.sts-systems.ca

P.S. Matt: you converted two guys, not just one...

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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 08:36:19 -0500
From: asteinm at pipeline.com (Art Steinmetz)
Subject: RE: Distillation

Sorry to come to this thread a bit late.  While I like jumping on the
Libertarian soapbox as much as anybody I'll simply provide some facts.  You
can find out quite a bit about still buidling in "The Lore of Still
Building" by Howard and Gibat.  Don't let the word "Lore" fool you (It's
intended to fool the BATF).  This basically a how-to.  Noteworthy is how
free it is of cautionary language like "don't try this at home or you'll
die"  that we've see a bit of on the HBD lately.  So you need to pay
attention to temperature.  Okay.  If I paid no attention to temp.  when
stroring meat I'd be asking for trouble too.  Also "Making Apple Cider" ( I
think that's the title) by Proulx and Nichols, published by Garden Way has
a chapter on still building and distillation.  This book should be widely
available. 
 

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Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 11:56:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Gregory King <GKING at ARSERRC.Gov>
Subject: M&F mailing address

Greetings HBD folk,

All this recent talk about salt concentrations in brewing water has
got me wondering what the amounts of these salts are in various malt
extracts.

I plan to write a letter to Munton & Fison asking about the salt
concentrations in their extracts.  Do any of you have Munton & Fison's
mailing address handy?

I will of course post any useful information I receive from M&F.  If
you are more interested in salt concentrations in extracts produced by
another manufacturer, I'll be happy to write the same letter to them if
you provide me with their mailing address.

TIA,

Greg King
gking at arserrc.gov


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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 08:48:31 -0600 (CST)
From: kuebeler at PICARD.tamu.edu (Mark Kuebeler)
Subject: Re: Iodophor/Thanks

Christopher M. Goll writes:
>      I have another idea to toss to the collective for critique:
>      
>      From recent HBD traffic, we seem to agree on approximately 12.5 ppm 
>      iodine (1/2 oz iodophor in 5 gal) as a good sanitizing level.  
>      However, trying to _accurately_ pour out 1/2 an ounce from a five oz 
>      bottle (the size available at my local brew store) is a PITA, leading 
>      me to add at least 3/4 oz to "make sure I've got it covered."  While 
>      my iodophor usage is not driving me to the poorhouse, it does seem 
>      like a waste.

I do most of my sanitizing with just 3 gallons of iodophor solution.
I start with 3 gallons of water in the carboy or bottling bucket, and
add 2 tsp of iodophor (this is about .33 oz., which results in a tad
more than a 12.5 ppm concentration, but it's easy to measure).  I let
the container stand upright for 5 minutes to make sure the bottom
surfaces get full contact.  Then I lay the container on its side (the
bottling bucket has the lid on, of course <g>), and give it a quarter
turn every 5 minutes until all inner side surfaces have had full
contact.  To finish the carboys I set the carboy upside down in one of
the gallon plastic buckets I buy extract in for another 5 minutes.
This ensures the entire inner surface of the carboy is sanitized.  Be
careful when doing this last part; you have to cover the mouth of the
carboy with one hand and hold the bottom with your other hand, so
there's some risk of the carboy slipping out of your hands.

Once the carboy is done, I pour half of the iodophor solution into a
wallpapering tray for sanitizing racking canes and bottle fillers,
and the rest into a plastic dishpan for doing hoses and little items.
The empty carboy is set upside down in the bucket to drip dry and keep
dust out until I'm ready to use it.

I figure one 4 oz. bottle of iodophor usually gets me through 3
batches and part of a 4th.

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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 08:51:48 -0600 (CST)
From: fitz at fasicsv.fnal.gov (Tom Fitzpatrick)
Subject: Additives and Behaviour

I'm sure most of you out there have stories you could tell 
about the effects of drinking cheap beer on one's behaviour.
My wife gets particularly squirrely when she drinks beer with 
lots of adjuncts/additives/preservatives. Can anyone point me 
to any studies or reference material on how and/or why
adjuncts/additives in beer affect us physically or mentally. 
My wife is taking a graduate course relating to alcohol use
and thought it might be an interesting topic. Thanks for any
help. 
- -- 
Tom Fitzpatrick

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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 10:04:38 -0500
From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Subject: NA Brewing

Jim Mitchell pines:

> The US offerings are dreadful - tastes boiled. Some of the European 
> recipies, are quite good. Can anyone help?

They taste boiled because that's perhaps the most straightforward way to make
NA beer -- take your finished/flat/unprimed beer, heat to ~170 for several
minutes, then cool, prime, pitch a small amount of "bottling" yeast (the
original colony is now dead from the heat), and bottle.

>From what I have read, the NA processes of most breweries falls under the
"trade secret" umbrella.  Whether there is a real "process" or just simple
dilution is not known to this brewer.

NA homebrewing techniques I have read about include freezing beer &
separating off the alcohol (questionable alcohol reduction & effect on
character), heating to ~100F or so under vacuum (same as boiling but lower
temperature prevents "cooked" taste; hop volatiles suffer but one can
compensate by overhopping the recipe), simple diluting, brewing weak low
gravity recipes, or mashing at the top of the temperature scale to minimize
fermentable yield.  I haven't tried any of these personally.

Ken Schwartz
KennyEddy at aol.com

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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 10:26:32 -0500 (EST)
From: "David Elm" <delm at hookup.net>
Subject: Request recipe for Murphy's stout

	Can anyone suggest an all grain recipe for Murphy's stout ?
- -- 
    David Elm    delm at hookup.net    (416) 961-9452    fax: (416) 961-8706
    253 Wellesley St E TH#2,   Toronto,  Ontario,  M4X 1G8,  Canada             


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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 09:28:29 -0600
From: John Wilkinson <jwilkins at imtn.tpd.dsccc.com>
Subject: Born again grain brewers

>What got me hooked was a friend of mine.  He volunteered to come to my 
>house, bring any equipment I didn't have and show me how to do this 
>thing.  In return, I supplied food and beer.  This worked like a 
>charm.  I couldn't believe how easy, and fun all grain was and I 
>didn't have to worry.  I've since done this to someone else, who also 
>became a convert.


Oh no!  Evangelical grain brewers!
I guess we will be o.k. unless they start getting TV programs.

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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 10:41:11 -0500
From: George Hoenninger <george at smarts.com>
Subject: Beer in Carboy

I am new to homebrewing and was looking for some friendly advice.  My
friends and I just tried an all-grain brew for the first time and I was
windering to things:
                1.  how long should i let the beer stay in the carboy?
                2.  how long should it stay in the bottles?

The beer I am brewing is a stout with a high alcohol content (recipe lists
it at 9%).  I am not sure if it helps so I will show the recipe:
        
Ingredients: (5 gal.)
10 lbs. British Pale Ale Malted Barley
1 lb.    Roasted Unmalted Barley
1 lb.    Flaked Barley
2 lbs.  Flaked Oats
1 lb.    Chocolate Malted Barley
1 lb.   Crystal 40L
1 lb.   Black Malted Barley
2 lbs. Dark Malt Extract (For an X-tra kick)
3 oz.  Centennial Hop Pellets (Boiling)
1 oz.  Tettnang Hop Pellets (Finishing)
#1028 Brewers Choice London Liquid Yeast
 
OG 1.096   FG 1.024    Alcohol Content about 9.5%

Any other information or helpful advice would be greatly appreciated.

George


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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 10:06:04 -0600
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: 100-year-old homebrew--top that! (from Carl Etnier)


The 'bot has rejected the following post from Carl Etnier several times 
in the last few days. He asked me to try submitting it from my account.

==============================================================

I just went through a stack of old unread HBDs and saw the posting from 
February where someone had found 10-year-old homebrew and wondered 
whether his beer was ruined. Better late than never--let me report on my 
experiences last year with 100-year-old beer. (_Everything_ is older in 
Europe.) 

Some of you will recall that I was on assignment a lot in Switzerland 
last year. I worked with an aristocratic German named Lustig, whose 
family has owned an estate in the mountains above Lucerne for centuries. 
He had just finished renovating the ruins of the von Spass family castle 
to make part of it livable again. In the cellar, he had come across six 
bottles of beer plus the brewing notes--forgotten homebrew! 

He showed them to me last fall when I was helping him move in. I could 
not read the old-style German script the notes were written in, but 
Lustig said solemnly, "Dis vas beered in eighteen hundret fife ant 
ninety." (He has the peculiar habit of saying "beered" when he means 
"brewed." In fact, "to beer" is a very versatile English verb for him. 
Once, when I ran out of beer and then brought home a case, he declared, 
delighted, "Now ees your home once more beered!") From the notes it 
transpired that this venerable beer was a bock, whose high alcohol 
content made its likelihood of surviving the century at least somewhat 
greater than a snowball's chance in a helles.

I was amazed that the beer could survive in that cellar for 100 years, 
untouched by humans or other creatures. Rushing in where trolls feared to 
feed, I suggested we drink one of the bottles. Besides, it was the only 
thing to be had--we hadn't brought up any beer yet, commercial or 
homebrew. 

Lustig reminded me about the Swedish archeologist who tasted 300-year-old 
butter when the warship Wasa was rediscovered in Stockholm's harbor. The 
poor guy contracted some chicken-pox-like disease that had been 
eradicated for over a century. I assured him that no known pathogen 
survives in beer and selflessly volunteered to be the guinea pig, so we 
took the bottles to the renovated part of the castle ruin.

What glassware is appropriate for a 100-year-old bock? I wanted something 
shallow and wide that would bring out the full profile of the beer, like 
a Chimay or Orval glass. Lustig took out instead a Bavarian Ludwig II 
stein. It was the anniversary of King Ludwig's death, September 31, and 
Lustig wanted to dedicate the bottle to his memory. The stein was one of 
those with the 19th century fairy tale king's face both on the side and 
on the translucent bottom. I uncorked a bottle and poured the dark liquid 
into (and onto) the monarch's mug. 

There was some carbonation left in the old bock; a little foam built a 
brownish white head. My heart beating rapidly from anticipation and 
nervousness, I lifted the stein to my lips and took a sip. Other than 
bitterness, all hops character was gone. The beer was somewhat stale, and 
there was just a hint of sourness where there should have been a little 
sweetness. Still, it was recognizable as a bock. 

"Lustig von Spass," I declared with satisfaction, 
"your ruin is definitely beered."

Prost!

- --Carl

Carl.Etnier at abc.se
A Kinetic Yankee in King Harald's Port
Oslo, Norway

P.S. I got Lustig to transcribe the brewing notes from old German script 
to modern letters, and I have a copy in one of my still- packed boxes. 
I'll translate the recipe and post it sometime. If you want to try 
brewing this before the northern latitudes' summer is upon us, let me 
know. With enough demand, I'll root around some and see if I can find it 
right away.

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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 11:10:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Filtering, cont

Tom writes:

<How does filtering affect biological stability?
<A polish filter (5 micron) definitely leaves some yeast in the finished
<product, which is desirable as yeast offers some biological stability.
<A finer filter (1 micron) might remove all the yeast, but leave some
<bacteria behind, free to do their dirty work. Sterile filtering (.22 micron)
<would presumably produce a stable product. I ask this question with the
<experience of having some filtered beers turn buttery and/or sour after
<sitting in the keg for extended periods (> 2 months). I know, the solution
<is to drink up!

In an ideal world, everything is sanitized to the point where biological
stability is not a problem.  Maybe this is more of an issue in a home
setting.  I think a more important consideration is avoid oxidation of
the beer as much as possible.  Also, by storeing the filter in a weak
sanitizer it should be biologically stable.

"Although filtration can do an adequate job of removing much or the perm-
anent haze, it can remove little of the chill haze."

<I assume you're talking about 3-5 micron levels here? I don't get any
<chill haze when filtering to .5 microns.

Sorry, yes submicron filtration can clear up chill haze and this is
the main reason .5 mics are routinely sold.  Should of added rough, or
polish or something to that line.

<What do you use for sanitizing?

Ive used the old B-brite, dilute iodophor and the Filter Store suggests
chlorine based sanitizers.

<I'm reluctant to
use iodophor for fear of staining my nice, bright white cartridge.

It shouldnt matter.  Taste is what counts.

< I have a set of "secondary" kegs with about 1/2"
<cut off the down tube. Even if you don't filter this idea is nice since
<it leaves the sediment on the bottom. Only a half-pint or so is lost.

Agreed.  All of my kegs have the dip tube cut.  Most of my beers do clear
in time and some cold conditioning.

Brew on!
Jim Busch

http://wanda.pond.com/~clrleaf/victory/Victory.html

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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 09:33:21 -0700 (MST)
From: Ian Smith <rela!isrs at netcom.com>
Subject: Extraction efficiency pts/#/gall etc.

Dear collective,

The question of extraction efficiency and the calculation of pts/#/gall 
has been bugging me for some time so I thought I'd ask for help !

When calculating the number of pounds used do you include the adjuncts 
such as crystal malt etc. ? (I mash the adjuncts with the base malt)

When calculating the number of points do you use the gravity of the hot 
sweet liquor that was collected after sparging and if so do you have to 
cool it to 68 F to take a reading ?

For the volume (number of galls) do you use the volume collected after 
sparging or the volume after boiling and hop additions etc (which 
is typically a couple of gallons less) ?

Also a rule of thumb for end of sparging has been to stop when the sg of 
the runnings reaches 1.010 - is this measurement made at 68 F or at 
sparge temperature (140 - 160 F) ?

I have been doing the pts/#/gall calcs based on the number of points of 
the wort after immersion cooling and dumping into the carboy. I have 
been using the number of gallons collected in the carboy and the 
number of pounds of base malt (ignoring adjuncts). Is this correct ? When is 
the appropriate time for doing the efficiency calculation and what is 
the 100% efficiency number ?

Help !
Ian Smith
isrs at rela.uucp.netcom.com

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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 12:05:53 -0500
From: cdewen at pipeline.com (Charles D. Ewen)
Subject: Another PBW comment

Recent HBD posts have praised the cleaning chemical PBW.   Here's my
experience: 
 
I acquired some old 5 gal SS kegs with dried product stains on the inside
walls.   An overnight 
soak with a 140F degree CTSP solution had little effect.   The next night,
I filled them with a 
solution of 1 Tbls PBW to 1 gal of _cold_ tap water, and left them in an
unheated garage - the 
temperature was never over 45F degrees.   The stains were gone in the
morning.   I like the 
stuff. 

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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 12:02:20 -0500
From: "Frederick L. Pauly" <flp2m at galen.med.virginia.edu>
Subject: Needed: Armchair analysis

Well, I think I have a problem and would like your expert
opinions. I have an Ale that leaves a dryish sensation on the
roof of my mouth and it stays there a long time  after swallowing
the beer.
This is a 10 gal. batch using 16# Klages 2row, 1# dextran, 1# 80L
crystal, 16 hbu pearl 90min, 6 hbu cascade 30 min, 5 hbu cascade
15 min. The water is very soft so I added 4 tbs of gypsum to the
mash water. Mashed 30 min at 108, 90 min at 158, pH stayed at 5.8
through the sparge with 180F .
Question part 2.
Noonan says if a hand full of grains tossed into water sinks then
the grain is too old. Any comments or experience on determining
if your grain is not fresh enough to use?
Thanks
Rick Pauly in Charlottesville,VA

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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 96 09:22:46 PST
From: hollen at vigra.com
Subject: Re: Iodophor/Thanks

>>>>> "Chris" == "Christopher M Goll" <cgoll at cc-mail.pica.army.mil> writes:

     
Chris> From recent HBD traffic, we seem to agree on approximately 12.5
Chris> ppm iodine (1/2 oz iodophor in 5 gal) as a good sanitizing
Chris> level.  However, trying to _accurately_ pour out 1/2 an ounce
Chris> from a five oz bottle (the size available at my local brew
Chris> store) is a PITA, leading me to add at least 3/4 oz to "make
Chris> sure I've got it covered."  While my iodophor usage is not
Chris> driving me to the poorhouse, it does seem like a waste.
     
I have two methods.  The first would be to use a syringe at 3cc per
gallon.  The second, which may not work for most people is to use a
plunger dispenser (since I use gallon bottles of iodophor, these are
readily available).  I put a piece of cut hose on the plunger to get
it to only make a partial stroke.  This arrangement is calibrated
using water until one plunger stroke will dispense the right amount of
iodophor.  When using this method, however, I am using 25ppm because I
do a final rinse.

dion

- -- 
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x119       Email: hollen at vigra.com
Senior Software Engineer     Vigra, Inc.  San Diego, California

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