---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Re: Water problems (Jim Dipalma)
  Traverse Brewing Academy/Big Primary ("Kevin A. Kutskill")
  Maple Sap,water filters (Scott Rudolph)
  hop plugs (Robert Rogers)
  re: real gross corny keg (Robert Rogers)
  cooler than room temperature brewing (Robert Rogers)
  how much wheat extract to use to get goog head retention.. (Victor J Farren)
  Re: Request recipe for Murphy's stout (Fredrik Stahl)
  Re: Hand stuck in carboy ("Braam Greyling")
  Really Stuck Ferment / High FGs (Neal Parker)
  Wyeast 1968 - London ESB strain (GSHUTELOCK)
  Trip / 6 row / Stuck hand (Ed Hitchcock)
  Re: Advice on getting that "bitter" flavor (Spencer W Thomas)
  Boiling Question (Steven Biggins)
  Wit beer, White Beer, WitBier Recipes (Steven Biggins)
  Brauwelt? ("James Hojel")
  Mini kegs (ByronOlive)
  Re: Rye in my beer (Bill Press)
   ("JEFFREY STRAUGHAN")
  Re: Wyeast sources (Jeff Frane)
  Grain Bed Depth (Darren Gaylor)
  HBRCP - Fonts (RUSt1d?)
  LN2 results and a question (David Raitt)
  Oxygen Regulator for CO2? (Harry Houck )
  H.G. Blow-off (Athol)
  "Scale Watcher" water treatment (Art Steinmetz)
  Armchair analysis (Domenick Venezia)
  Re: Armchair analysis (Russell Mast)
  RE: keeping my cool (RZ28)
  dry taste (Algis R Korzonas)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 1 Apr 96 14:22:25 EST
From: dipalma at sky.com (Jim Dipalma)
Subject: Re: Water problems



Hi All,

In HBD#1998, Raymond Louvier writes:

>As far as I can tell my water is very
>high in bicarbonates but low in calcium. I've been trying to boil the
>water to remove the carbonates but while reading Dave Millers book the
>other night I read where you must have the right amount of calcium to
>precipitate out the carbonates.

>Now I seem to have a bite to all my beers and I am wondering if I'm not
>getting any of the carbonates out from boiling and let sit over night.

  I think letting it sit overnight is the problem. The carbonate/bicarbonate
(I can never quite recall the details of this reaction, which one precips
out) is re-dissolving in the water as it rests overnight. Let the water
rest 20-30 minutes after pre-boiling, then rack or decant into another
vessel. 
  BTW, at 33 ppm, the calcium level in your water is quite low. Add a teaspoon
of either gypsum or calcium chloride to the water just before boiling. Since
you're brewing light lagers, it's desirable to keep the sulfate content low,
so calcium chloride is probably the better choice.

**************************************************************

Also in HBD#1998, Rick Pauly writes:

>I have an Ale that leaves a dryish sensation on the
>roof of my mouth and it stays there a long time  after swallowing
>the beer.
>This is a 10 gal. batch using 16# Klages 2row, 1# dextran, 1# 80L
>crystal, 16 hbu pearl 90min, 6 hbu cascade 30 min, 5 hbu cascade
>15 min. The water is very soft so I added 4 tbs of gypsum to the
                                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   I believe you're adding too much gypsum to your water. I'm not sure whether
you mean tablespoons or teaspoons by "tbs", but according to the information
I have, 1 teapoon of gypsum added to 5 gallons of water contributes 135 ppm
of sulfate. Four teaspoons in 10 gallons would be adding about 270 ppm, which
is quite a lot. If you meant 4 *tablespoons*, the contribution would be 810
ppm, assuming 1 tablespoon = 3 teaspoons.
   When I've tasted beers that had this problem, they came across as dry,
harsh, somewhat sulfury, and the taste lingered long after swallowing. The
flavor you're describing sounds very similar to this.
   
            Cheers,
              Jim              dipalma at sky.com

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Date: 01 Apr 96 23:45:03 EST
From: "Kevin A. Kutskill" <75233.500 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Traverse Brewing Academy/Big Primary

(Disengage lurking cloak)

Just had to tell all of you midwesterners of a great weekend to 
look out for next year.  I went to the Traverse Brewing Academy 
on March 22-23 in Traverse City, Michigan.  It was fantastic!!
The weekend started out with a reception featuring some great
microbrewed midwest beers, and an informal homebrew tasting 
contest on Friday nite, then a full day of homebrewing seminars
with notable homebrew names such as Dan McConnell, 
Fred Eckhardt, Karen Barela, Randy Mosher, and Mike Urseth.
Between the homebrews, microbrewed beers, and samples 
brought in by Phoenix Importers, there was more than 75 beers to 
sample!  The seminars and the bonding with my fellow brewers
made the weekend more than worthwhile.  I highly recommend it 
to all next year.  (insert standard disclaimer here).

On to picking the collective brain:  I am currently moving up to a 
10-15 gallon setup for a brewery, and I am trying to come up with 
a good idea for a primary fermenter.  The first thing that comes to 
mind is a Sankey keg, but I would like to seal it off as best as 
possible to the outside air (not ready to take the _open fermenter_
plunge).  Also, I would like to have the thing air tight with a ball lock
fitting on it to push the beer into cornelius secondaries with CO2,
and with an opening big enough to get my arm into it to clean.
Is this asking too much of a primary, or has someone done this 
before?  Private responses ok.

TIA

Kevin A. Kutskill ("Dr. Rottguts")
Clinton Township, MI

"A homebrew a day keeps the doctor happy"


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Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 23:10:05 -0600 (CST)
From: Scott Rudolph <rudy at execpc.com>
Subject: Maple Sap,water filters

        
First of all an overdue thank you to everyone who responded to my request
for chili info;  I  can now pursue that endeavor with confidence.

The Chili beer will have to wait on the back burner as it's time for a
seasonal beer that I  brewed last year and hope to improve on this year,
with y'alls help I  hope.  I  will be tapping Maple trees this weekend and
will bring home ten to fifteen gallons of Maple Sap.  Last year I  used ten
gallons of sap to make a five gallon batch of "waterless beer"  instead of
water I  used maple sap and wort extract.  I  thought the result was fair,
others liked it much more 
than I  did.  The maple flavor reminded me of a sherry.

Since that batch I've been brewing all grain which brings me to my question.
If I  sparge with maple sap rather than water,  will all the good maple
flavor flow through or will it be trapped in the grain bed?  I've been
thinking about this all winter,  I  realize I  could just use water as usual
and add maple syrup to the boil; but the romance of an all maple waterless
beer would not be there.  Then there's the question of conversion with sap.
Any suggestions on additives?  I  could go on, but I  think that's enough on
that subject.

My most recent batch was a dunkel weizen, a Zymurgy recipe, it was my first
decotion mash and also the first batch that I  used my instapure water filter.
Previous batches contained straight tap water from Appleton WI.  Now the
first sampling of this beer after about 3 weeks in the bottle, was
undrinkable, a first for me.  It tasted more like I  added chlorine rather
than removed it.
My friends say it just needs more time, but I'm not sure.   What I'm
wondering is did my filter filter out the good things in the water along
with the chlorine?  If so, could I  have easily replaced them?  Or am I
missing it completly and something else went wrong?  Maybe it just needs
more time.
The beer had a very promising taste at bottling.

Any thoughts, ideas, warnings, etc. are greatly appreciated.

Scott Rudolph,
Appleton, WI


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Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 02:09:33 -0500
From: bob at carol.net (Robert Rogers)
Subject: hop plugs

i used to use hop pellets until the brew supply store recommended hop plugs.
they are a lot cooler for sure.. first, they are 1/2 oz each, so measuring
is a snap. then when you throw them into the boil, they exapand out to full
leaves, which are easy to scoop out with a big strainer if you are so
inclined. they also have the alpha acid percentage when packaged printed on
the package, which is better than nothing.

bob
bob rogers,  bob at carol.net


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Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 02:09:50 -0500
From: bob at carol.net (Robert Rogers)
Subject: re: real gross corny keg

victor asks about lingering smell in a corny keg.

i can't immagine that the stainless steel can hold an odor. take the
fittings off and replace the o-rings. when you put the fittings back on use
teflon tape on the threads. there could be gunk in the "out" tube. it should
be easier to clean when it is out of the keg. try running something through it.

bob
bob rogers,  bob at carol.net


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Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 02:11:06 -0500
From: bob at carol.net (Robert Rogers)
Subject: cooler than room temperature brewing

if you don't pay for your water, you could set your fermenter in a tub and
run a trickle of water continuousy, that is if your tap water is the right
temperature (and you don't mind spotted owl for lunch :)  (yes, that is a joke)

i've been doing some lagers recently, and i put the primary in a larger vat,
and i fill the larger vat with water and drop plastic bottles filled with
ice. when the ice melts i put them in the freezer. by varying how many "ice
bombs" are in the vat at once, you can roughly control the temperature. the
more water the vat holds, the more stable the temperature will be. i try to
cool the bath to about 40 degrees before i transfer to the secondary, which
goes in the fridge.

bob
bob rogers,  bob at carol.net


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Date: Tue, 02 Apr 1996 02:48:17 -0500
From: Victor J Farren <wigwam at jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu>
Subject: how much wheat extract to use to get goog head retention..

	I plan on brewing a brown ale in the next couple of days.  I have 
had a problem with head retention and I was told that wheat extract helps 
a lot.  I bought 1 lb. of 55% wheat and 45% barley dried extract.  I am 
wondering if I should go ahead and use 1 lb. or 1/2lb.  Can i get good 
head retention with just 1/2 lb. or should I go ahead and use the whole 
package?  If I use 1 lb. will I be able to 'eat it with a spoon'?  Any 
comments are welcome.

			Victor Farren

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Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 14:53:39 +0100
From: fredriks at abel.math.umu.se (Fredrik Stahl)
Subject: Re: Request recipe for Murphy's stout

I don't have any data for Murphy's, but I recently brewed a Beamish clone
based on a recipe by Graham Wheeler:



Berghem Beamish
===============

Total volume: 22 liters

2.85 kg pale malt
160 g chocolate malt
400 g roasted barley
400 g wheat malt (!)
200 g white sugar (in kettle)

23 g Northern Brewer, pellets, 6.3% AA  at  120 min
25 g Fuggles, leaf, 5% AA  at  120 min
11 g Fuggles, leaf, 5% AA  at  15 min

Salts: 3.6 g CaCO3, 0.5 g CaCl2, 1.3 g CaSO4 and 0.3 g NaCl.

Total boil time: 120 min.
OG 1.041
FG 1.011
IBU 42
Mash efficiency: 70%
Apparent attenuation: 72%

Step mash 30 min  at  43C, 45 min  at  60C, 15 min  at  70C and 15 min  at  77C.

Fermented with WYeast #1084 Irish at 19.5C.
Open fermentation in primary for 5 days and closed in secondary for 8 days.



The result is somewhat like Beamish but there is still some difference. It
has some nice roastiness with some chocolate, which seems to be right on,
but is a bit too sweet. It also has some fruity tones that I would like to
eliminate. Some ideas for improvement:
* change to cleaner and more attenuative yeast. Maybe YeastLab's Irish
yeast is better?
* ferment at lower temperature (17-18C).

The hop aroma is far too strong, and the beer could need more of a "clean bite".
I guess I will boil the last hop addition a bit longer, maybe for 30 min. or so.

I chose to do a step mash at 40-60-70 to control the fermentability of the
wort. The rest at 40C could well be shortened to 15 min., and if you cannot
do a step mash, use single infusion at about 63C to get high
fermentability.
(If I remember correctly Graham Wheeler states that Beamish has OG 39, FG
9.5 and IBU 40.)



I also tried to do a Guinness clone about a year ago:



Black Hole Stout
================

Total volume: 22 liters

3.06 kg pale malt
560 g flaked barley
380 g roasted barley

56 g Goldings, plugs, 4.5% AA  at  60 min
25 g Goldings, plugs, 4.5% AA  at  10 min

Salts: 3 g CaCO3, 1 g CaSO4 and 0.6 g NaCl.

Total boil time: 60 min.
OG 1.044
FG 1.013
IBU 29
Mash efficiency: 87%
Apparent attenuation: 70%

Single infusion 1 h 45 min  at  65C.

Fermented with WYeast #1028 at 20C.
Closed fermentation in primary for 9 days and secondary for 11 days.



I had the same problem with this as with Berghem Beamish - to sweet and too
much hop aroma (even a bit "grassy"). The same comments as above apply, and
maybe some other hop than Goldings should be used. The roasted character
was right on, though.

I chose #1028 instead of #1084 because of the higher attenuation. It's
still to sweet, so I probably need to lower the mash temp to 63C (or use a
step mash similar to the one above).



Actually, I think Murphy's is a little sweeter and milder than both Beamish
and Guinness. I also have a feeling that it has quite a pronounced
roastiness, but not such a distinct chocolate tone as Beamish. I would
start with a recipe with grains as in Black Hole Stout, maybe with a little
chocolate but less than 80g. I would use hops like in Berghem Beamish,
rescaled to get about 30-35 IBU, and boil the last addition for 30 min (or
skip it altogether).



Hope this is of some help, and do post the results if you give it a try.

Murphy's is a wonderful ale indeed, one of my favourites!

- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Fredrik Stahl                    Tel: int + 90 166027
Math. Dept., Umea University     Fax: int + 90 165222
S-90187 Umea, SWEDEN             E-mail: fredriks at abel.math.umu.se
        *** Nemo saltat sobrius, nisi forte insanit ***
- -------------------------------------------------------------------



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Date:          Tue, 2 Apr 1996 14:56:05 +200
From: "Braam Greyling" <ACG at knersus.nanoteq.co.za>
Subject:       Re: Hand stuck in carboy


>Oh, by the way to get my brains back out I just put some boiling water in 
>the carbouy and gave it a good shake and the resulting pressure blew them 
>back out.  Maybe you can do something similar with your hand.

How did you get such a brainy good idea when your brain was in the 
carboy ?   ;-D
Or did your new super intelligent carboy told you to do it ?
Can it tell you now when your beer is ready for the secondary ?


Braam Greyling           Design Engineer 
Nanoteq (Pty) Ltd        tel. +27 (12) 665-1338  
- ---- 24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a case ---- 
- ----     coincidence ?????                 ----

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Date: Tue, 2 Apr 96 08:31:55 EST
From: NParker at Lockheed.on.ca (Neal Parker)
Subject: Really Stuck Ferment / High FGs

Argh!

I've got an extract-based ale in the carboy.  OG= 1.048.  Expected
FG from ingredients = 1.016.  It is stuck at 1.026 (even after adding a
packet of dry yeast and yeast nutrient) - no action.  It looked great -
a lag of only 6 hrs., strong ferment.  I started this brew by pitching 2
packets of Cooper's dry yeast (rehydrated) and aerated with an 
airstone for 45 min.  I ferment in a glass carboy.  Temp fluctuated from 60
to 72 F.

But the real frustration of all this is that this is happening to most of my
recent brews.  FGs of 1.022, 1.021, 1.020, etc. when expected FG is 1.008 to 
1.016.  I've been using various yeasts, different brands of extract, different
fermenting locations, even changing my method but I'm still left with those 
high FGs.  Plus the beer produced hasn't been up to my standards at all.

So what do I try now?  I'm all equiped for all-grain but I really don't
want a disaster.  I've got to solve this FG thing.  Are high FG's a common
problem?  What about going to (going back to) open ferments?  Carbon filter
my tap water?  Pitch even more yeast?  Aerate even more?  Dance naked around
the fermenter praying to the great yeast gods?

Neal Parker   			nparker at lockheed.on.ca
Lockheed Martin Canada 
Kanata, Ontario, Canada


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Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 08:48:52 -0500
From: GSHUTELOCK at aol.com
Subject: Wyeast 1968 - London ESB strain

I'm planning on making an partial mash/extract IPA this weekend (probably the
"Classic IPA" recipe out of Noonan's Classic Beer Styles) and want to use up
a pack of the London ESB I have before it gets to old.  There's been some
mention in recent HBDs about this yeast being one of the lowest attenuating
of the Wyeast family.  My questions are:

     1) Does this mean it will just take a lot longer to ferment and/or that
my FG may not hit the TG? (OG is 1.055 and TG is 1.012-1.014 per the recipe).

     2) Is there anything special I should do for this yeast beyond making
the usual one pint starter?  Would pitching a larger starter help offset the
low attenuation properties of this yeast?  (I plan to aerate heavily with an
Oxynater before I pitch the starter).

     3) If anyone has experimented with culturing SNPA yeast from the bottle
I'd be interested in how it worked out.

Thanks in advance for any advice.  George Shutelock
(e-mail:gshutelock at aol.com)

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Date: Tue, 02 Apr 1996 14:04:05 GMT
From: ehitchcock at sparc.uccb.ns.ca (Ed Hitchcock)
Subject: Trip / 6 row / Stuck hand


I'll be taking a trip from Nova Scotia through Maine, NH, Vermont, and
upper NY state, crossing at Niagara Falls and on to my eventual
destination of Toronto.  If anyone has any recommendations for stores
along this route where rare beers (Lambics etc) may be purchased or
brewpubs which cannot be passed up (the name and location of Noonan's
place?) I would greatly apprectiate the info.  I believe e-mail is the
nettiquette way to respond, but I'll find any answers poetd here too.

	***

	David Rinker asked about 6-row in his wit.  First, you probably don't
have to worry about using 2-row pilsner malt, I've never had any
trouble.  Just do a protein rest and make sure you keep that sparge
warm.  As for the problems with 6-row, you shouldn't worry about
clarity when brewing a wit!  The other problems (tannins etc) are
usually only a problem if you use 100% 6 row.  60% 6 row is not a
problem at all (think of the clarity and stability of megaswill!)

	***

	Roland Everitt asks for advice on getting his hand unstuck from the
carboy.  May I suggest he is actually in an enviable situation.  A
while ago there was a discussion on how to drill a hole in the carboy
to attach a tap or nipple, until someone pointed out that once the
hole was drilled it would be impossible to thread the nut on the
inside anyway.  Well, since Mr. Rinker already has his hand inside, he
could drill the hole (using a copper tube and abrasive) and thread the
nut on the inside, then simply connect his CO2 to the tap and
pressurize the carboy to pop his hand back out.  Remember, when using
pressure and carboys always wear safety glasses.

	ed
ehitchcock at sparc.uccb.ns.ca


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Date: Tue, 02 Apr 1996 09:33:18 -0500
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Advice on getting that "bitter" flavor 

>>>>> "Frank" == Frank Ferguson x3584 <fpf at gasco.com> writes:

    Frank> One problem we've had is getting a truely sharp, bitter
    Frank> taste in our bitters.  By and large, we've wound up with a
    Frank> tendency for a somewhat sweet and gentle bitter.  What's
    Frank> the secret?  

You don't give many clues, so I'll give a scattershot answer, in the
hopes that at least one of my recommendations will help.  Try the
following (in no particular order):

1. Add gypsum.  Sulfates will help bring out the "sharp" bitterness
you want.

2. Grow a big yeast starter, and aerate your wort very well when
pitching.  This will help the yeast ferment the wort completely,
leaving you with a drier, less sweet finish.

3. Add a bit of sugar.  Many British pale ales and bitters have some
sugar in them.  I'd suggest no more than 1/2 lb for a 1.045 beer.
This will up your final alcohol without adding sweetness.  With a
small enough amount of sugar, there should be no bad flavor effects.

4. Try varying the extract you use.  Some extracts just end up sweeter
than others.  The Zymurgy special issue on extract brewing may help
here.  They had a chart showing fermentability for several brands.
You want one that is more fermentable (lower final gravity).

5. Use more bittering hops.  A bitter should have 30-45 IBUs.  For a
full-volume boil, this corresponds to 8-11 HBUs of hops, boiled for 60
minutes.  For a partial-volume boil, you might have to double the
hops.

6. Boil the full volume.  A partial boil will increase caramelization
of the wort, producing unfermentable compounds and a flavor profile
that is not desirable for a bitter.

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)

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Date: Tue, 02 Apr 1996 09:53:57 -0500
From: Steven Biggins <sy73308 at vantage.fmr.com>
Subject: Boiling Question



  In my last two batches I have done a full boil on a Cajun
  Cooker.  I start with about 6 gallons of wort and boil for
  90 mins.  I get a great "Rolling Boil".  The problem I'm 
  having is that I end up with 3 1/2 gals. of wort when I'm
  done.

  I guess my questions would be what actually is a "Rolling Boil"
  and why after 90 mins. am I getting only 3 1/2 gals of wort 
  when I'm shooting for 5 - 5 1/2 gals.


  Steve B.

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Date: Tue, 02 Apr 1996 10:02:13 -0500
From: Steven Biggins <sy73308 at vantage.fmr.com>
Subject: Wit beer, White Beer, WitBier Recipes


 Hello Brewing Public,

 I'm looking for any (All Grain) recipes for:
 White Beer, Wit Beer and/or Witbier.  I'm sure
 there are places that I could look but I'm having
 problems with my Netscape.  Any tips on brewing this
 style with be helpful too.


 TIA,

 Stevie B.
 

 

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Date: Thu, 21 Mar 96 15:46:18 UT
From: "James Hojel" <JTroy at msn.com>
Subject: Brauwelt?

In HBD #1989, Dave referenced an article that appeared in Brauwelt.  It sounds 
like a very interesting source of information.  What is Brauwelt (magazine, 
journal) and how do I get my hands on a copy?

JTH

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Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 10:34:37 -0500
From: ByronOlive at aol.com
Subject: Mini kegs

Good morning

Upon reading all the posts about mini kegs, I thought you ought to know that
the kegs you purchase at the store with commercial beer in them are DIFFERENT
than the kegs sold by the same mfg. to homebrew suppliers. The commercial
kegs are intended for a one time use only and may rust at the opening. The
"overpriced" ones sold at the homebrew shops have an additional and thicker
vinyl lining that won't react with beer and keeps the rust away so it may be
re-used. I believe this is why they cost more. 

BTW a "carbonator",  made for filling 2 liter PET bottles fits where your CO2
encasement screws on and you could apply CO2 pressure this way. WARNING these
kegs can withstand a limited amount of pressure, 30psi I'm guessing, so don't
go overboard and waste beer.

Byron Schmidt 

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Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 09:45:49 -0600
From: Bill Press <press at lip.wustl.edu>
Subject: Re: Rye in my beer

> Can anyone give me pointers on using rye?  I would like a reddish
> color contribution with only a limited flavor contribution.  Also,
> if I can't find malted rye can I use unmalted and boil it for say,
> 30 minutes to gelatinize it?

When using malted rye, be sure to do a beta-glucan rest.  Beta-glucan
is extremely viscous, and using a decent amount of rye (>20%, they
say) will cause a stuck sparge.  To avoid this (I have yet to try
this... I'm brewing my first rye ale next week), hold your mash at
35-45 C for 30 minutes to an hour.  I'm going to do 45-60-70 C
for 30-30-30 min.

You can get malted rye from St. Patrick's of Texas (800-448-4224).  If
you can, ask for Lynn if you have questions.  Even better, try calling
Brewcrafters (800-HOT-WORT).  They said they would start carrying
malted rye sometime this month.  They also carry whole hops (correctly
packaged in O2 barrier bags), which is a plus, and Jim is a very
knowledgable and friendly voice.  I try to use Brewcrafters whenever I
can (check out http://www.brewcrafters.com/hotwort/ for their online
catalog).

	Bill (who has no affiliation with St Pats or Brewcrafters)

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Date:          Tue, 2 Apr 1996 11:54:25 AST4ADT
From: "JEFFREY STRAUGHAN" <015056S at axe.acadiau.ca>
Subject:       

signoff beer-l

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Date: Tue, 02 Apr 1996 08:19:36 -0800
From: jfrane at teleport.com (Jeff Frane)
Subject: Re: Wyeast sources


Al Korzonas wrote:
>
>Remember a while back when Tom Fitzpatrick said that he spoke to Dave
>Logsdon at Wyeast and got the origins for many of the yeasts?  Remember
>when I posted that Dave usually doesn't give out the the sources and
>that I was suspicious of Tom's confidence in the yeast sources.
>
>I'm not saying that they are the sources of the yeasts, nor am I saying
>that they are not.  Furthermore, I'm not saying that Dave is not telling
>the truth nor that Tom is not telling the truth.  What I suspect, is that
>Tom asked Dave point blank and that Dave gave a half-yes-half-maybe
>answer (as he has always done with me) and Tom interpreted that as being
>a yes.
>
>But, don't take any of the matchings of Wyeasts with sources too seriously
>because there is an awful lot of speculation infused into those matchings.
>

I've known Dave for well over a decade and have frequently learned the 
specific source for Wyeast's strains.  I've always respected Dave's desire
to be protective of his information -- and of his sources.  I was a little
surprised to hear Tom's original statement that Dave had given him such
definite response about several of the new strains because, as Al notes,
he generally doesn't do that.

On the other hand, I *know* that the answers Tom reported were accurate;
maybe Dave surprised himself by being so clear to Tom, but I'm willing
to take Tom's word that Dave *was* clear.  

Dave has never been adamant about a yeast's source unless he has no
reason to doubt the authenticity -- as, for instance, when he's gotten
the yeast directly from the brewery.  I don't know why he was so clear
with Tom in this particular instance, but given the fact that he told
Tom and me exactly the same thing, without any quibbling, I suspect that
in those cases the answers are unequivocal and can be relied on.

- --Jeff Frane




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Date: Tue, 02 Apr 1996 08:30:52 -0800
From: Darren Gaylor <dgaylor at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Grain Bed Depth

I am preparing to take the all-grain plunge and am
gradually amassing the necessary equipment.  I have
a 10 gallon pot that I want to use as my mash/lauter
tun (inside diameter about 16").  Will this provide
me with a deep enough grain bed when it is time to
sparge, or do I need something with a smaller diameter?

As I plan on sticking to 5 gallon batches for the time
being.  I would like to know the volume of a "normal" mash
per pound of grain as well as the recommended grain bed
depth for sparging.

TIA,

Darren

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Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 11:25:35 -0500
From: RUSt1d? <rust1d at swamp.li.com>
Subject: HBRCP - Fonts

To those who have download my homebrew recipe calculator, I forgot to 
include a couple of fonts. They are now included in the .zip file so
you may want to get the new one. Also, I am really interested in feedback
on how well it preforms and what needs improvement.

John Varady


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Date: Tue, 02 Apr 1996 11:43:03 -0500
From: David Raitt <draitt at scri.fsu.edu>
Subject: LN2 results and a question


First the cooling:

I posted a little while ago asking if anyone had experience cooling wort 
using liquid nitrogen (LN2). Since no one had any strong reasons why it 
might not be a good idea, I went ahead and tried it. The beer is a fairly 
standard pale ale extract batch, so I had about 3 gallons of wort to cool, 
using about 5 litres of nitrogen. Roughly, I needed more LN2 than that. 
Initially, it seemed that the nitrogen was boiling so fast that there was 
little cooling of the wort going on. It is probably that the LN2 was boiling 
before reaching the surface of the liquid, so there was little cooling. As 
the temperature dropped, the LN2 didn't boil as fast, and was more effective 
at cooling. Overall, it took about 20 minutes to drop the wort from boiling 
to 110F, when we ran out of LN2 and used a standard ice bath instead. 

If I were to repeat the experiment, I would probably try and cool the wort 
to 160F or so by standard means and then use the LN2 in the range where it 
seemed to be most effective. However, it was really cool, in a vaguely mad 
scientist kind of way, to see the vapor coming out of my kettle like that. 
And it could blow vapour rings!

Now the question(s):

I am slowly making the shift to all-grain from extract brewing. Since the 
local fire regulations prohibit me from having a propane tank on my 
apartment balcony, I won't be able to do a full 6-7 gallon boil until I 
move. As a result I have started partial mashing -- generally 4-6 pounds of 
grain. 

The first question is whether this is the amount of grain that most people 
who partial mash use? A lot of the recipes in the Cat's Meow that claim to 
be partial mash actually seem to be extract with steeped specialty grains, 
which I would not have called a partial mash.

The second question concerns the beer that I am making this weekend. I am 
planning on making a stout and got to thinking (dangerous!). If I mash about 
6 pounds of pale malt as a base and then steep an additional three pounds of 
specialty grains (a combination of black patent, chocolate, roasted barley, 
etc. yet to be determined) it seems that I should get an OG of around 1.050 
or so which is a reasonable starting point. There will be a lot of 
unfermentables in the wort, but that is common to many stouts. Is there any 
reason why this wouldn't work to create a reasonably drinkable stout?

David

- -- 
|David Raitt Postdoc RA          | SCRI                     |  Head Brewer  |
|draitt at scri.fsu.edu             | Florida State University | Chief  Taster |
|http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~draitt/| Tallahassee, FL 32306    | Late Shipment |
|Office: (904) 644-2434          | Fax: (904) 644-0098      |  Picobrewery  |
************************** How 'bout them Wildcats? *************************



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Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 08:55:01 -0800
From: hhouck at ix.netcom.com (Harry Houck )
Subject: Oxygen Regulator for CO2?

I picked up a nice, cheap ($1) oxygen regulator at the swap meet. Put a 
Co2 tail piece on it and plumbed it up to my 20# tank. The oxy 
regulator has a Liters Per Minute guage in addition to the high 
pressure guage. It also has an orifice fitting on the low pressure side 
which I had to remove before attaching a standard 0-40 lb. guage for 
calibration, cause it wouldn't fit otherwise. The oxy regulator 
measured 40lbs. when _barely_ cranked in. I'm not a physicist (although 
I portray one in my brewery), but O is 1/3 the density of Co2, right? 
Does the orifice do anything more than prevent oxygen mask blow-out?

My question. Can this nice, chrome and green regulator be modified for 
brewery use? Do I need to find a fitting to re-install the orifice? 

            -Harry Houck

 - "Beer is cheaper than dialysis" - me



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Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 13:00:27 -0500 (EST)
From: Athol <ktp52952 at pegasus.cc.ucf.edu>
Subject: H.G. Blow-off


i'm sure this has been discussed before, however i missed it.
consider me a newbie...

i brewed 5 gals of russian imperial stout last weekend, ending up with a 
O.G. of about 1.078 or so, along with a healthy quart starter of london ale 
Wyeast.  During the following days, it erupted, spilling quite a 
considerable (and impressive) amount of blow-off...
(around half a gallon?  the water level in the 5 gal glass carboy fell 
two/three inches from the *mid-shoulder* )

now, for my questions:
1) does the water lost need to be replaced?
   (this wouldn't be a problem with low OG beers, but...)
2) due to the water lost, i assume the OG will be inflated a bit 
(correct?).  will the new inflated OG be to high for the London Wyeast?
   (i notice quite a difference in the bubbling rate between this RIS 
(slow), and others before (much faster), i wonder if the Wyeast are being 
put under considerable growing-pains, swimming in too much of thier own 
alcohol, thus should I dillute/replace lost water the beer with water. 
sorry, i don't know my yeasts...)

thank you all for your help,
if you reply, please do so via private email.
any comments on bottling this HG stout (as in +/- repitching/yeast nutrients)
would be appreciated as well.

 -ktp52952 at Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu     
 -University of Central Florida, Orlando Fl.

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Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 15:14:28 -0500
From: asteinm at pipeline.com (Art Steinmetz)
Subject: "Scale Watcher" water treatment

I got a brochure the other day for a gizmo called "Scale Watcher."  You
wrap some kind of induction coil around a cold water pipe and "modern
integrated circuitry" sends out "modulated frequencies"  to precipate
dissolved calcium ions into "insoluble calcium salts which move in a
suspended form in water."  The idea is that the precipitated particles
won't cause scale in pipes and such. 
 
It strikes me that (if it works) a little filtration down the line would
provide the benefits of pre-boiling and racking off the precipitate.   
 
Anybody know about this thing?  Thanks. 
 
- -- 
Art Steinmetz 
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/asteinmetz

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Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 12:18:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com>
Subject: Armchair analysis

- ------------------------------

Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com> responds to Ian Smith in HBD #2000, 1 Apr

Ian asks:
>> Also a rule of thumb for end of sparging has been to stop when the sg of 
>> the runnings reaches 1.010 - is this measurement made at 68 F or at 
>> sparge temperature (140 - 160 F) ?

Russell responds:
>I would never waste my time with a hydrometer during a sparge.  Taste the 
>stuff.  If it tastes bad, don't use it.  I always stop sparging when I have
>7 gallons unless I have a lot of time to kill and a few extra containers.

Ian asks: (snipped)
>> I have been doing the pts/#/gall calcs based on the number of points of 
>> ...

Russell responds:
>Who cares?  The only thing I'd recommend you change is to include your 
>adjuncts.  I have a ballpark idea of my rather variable extraction rate, and
>I use that to figure how much grain I'll need.  Beyond that, I don't worry
>much about it, and I don't really know why anyone does.  (Enlighten me!)

These two answers by Russell reflect a personal philosophy of home
brewing.  A perfectly fine philosophy, but one that I do not share.  I
take an SG measurement of the runnings every 2 gallons during the sparge. 
I also note the grain bed temp at the same times.  From these measurements
I can track the course of the sparge and get a better idea of when to
stop.  I collect between 6 and 9 gallons of wort.  But, also like Russell
I taste the runnings near the end.  In this way I attempt to use every
tool at my disposal.  By monitoring the sparge so closely I can get an
idea of the effects and efficiency of my process.  Did the finer crush
increase efficiency?  When did the majority of solutes emerge?  What
effect did the hotter sparger water have on the process?  And so on. 

One thing that I have learned is that as long as the pH of the sparge
remains at or below 5.8 the danger of tannin extraction is minimal.  This
includes boiling water extractions and is of course contrary to accepted 
practice.  If anybody has a reference for a tannin extraction vs sparge
pH study I'd appreciate getting it. 

Ian asks:
>> opinions. I have an Ale that leaves a dryish sensation on the
>> roof of my mouth and it stays there a long time  after swallowing
>> the beer.  ... through the sparge with 180F.

Russell responds:
>Tannins.  I'll bet you 20 bucks.  Your sparge water might be too hot.
>Your thermometer might be slower than you think.  (Like, it slows down 
>
>Is that the mash in the lauter tun, or is that the sparge water?  THat's 
>pretty darned hot - if that's your grain temp, that's the source of your
>tannins.

I'll take that bet!  Note that Ian also used a fair amount of gypsum (4
tsp in 10 gallons - tbl was a typo by Ian) and had a 65 IBU hopping rate. 
My guess is that the dryness perceived by Ian is a sulphate dryness, the
front of the mouth powdery dryness that is a distinguishing characteristic
of Burton style ales. 

I really do believe that the danger of tannin extraction is overblown
(given the pH 5.8 runnings limit).  Scottish sparges (as described to me
by Ron Price who toured Scottish breweries) are batch sparges with the
first batch at 170F, then 180F, then the last at a simmer (>200F). 

Finally, Russell's comments about thermometers should be taken seriously. 
Often thermometers are not accurate and they are slow to respond to those 
last couple of degrees.

Domenick Venezia
Computer Resources
ZymoGenetics, Inc.
Seattle, WA
venezia at zgi.com




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Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 14:42:32 -0600
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Re: Armchair analysis


> From venezia at zgi.com Tue Apr  2 14:19 CST 1996
> From: Domenick "that's not homebrew!" Venezia <venezia at zgi.com>

> Russell responds:
> >Tannins.  I'll bet you 20 bucks. 

> I'll take that bet! 

Hey!  I was betting Ian, not you!  And, I was basing my bet more on his 
description of the flavor than on his description of his methods.  

> Note that Ian also used a fair amount of gypsum (4
> tsp in 10 gallons - tbl was a typo by Ian) and had a 65 IBU hopping rate. 
> My guess is that the dryness perceived by Ian is a sulphate dryness, the
> front of the mouth powdery dryness that is a distinguishing characteristic
> of Burton style ales. 

I don't find the sulfate dryness to last that long, though, whereas the 
tannin dryness seems to really stick with me.  However, I experience tannin
effects mostly at the back of the throat.  Ian said "roof of the mouth", I
assumed it was palatte.  Sulfate dryness, unless I'm mistakening it for 
something else, I usually get all over, but more pronounced towards the front
of the mouth (as you say), but it seems to pass rather quickly.  It's usually
very harsh, though, which matches Ian's description, whereas tannins are 
usually more mild to my tongue, and usually part of an aftertaste.

Okay, Ian, the bet's off.

> I really do believe that the danger of tannin extraction is overblown
> (given the pH 5.8 runnings limit). 

I have definately has some hefty tannin extraction with water temps around
180.  I don't always take pH readings, but I did two very similar batches 
within a couple weeks using very similar methods.  I'd guess it would depend
somewhat on your water supply.  Maybe not.  I, too, would like to see some 
hard data with both heat and pH varied.

> Finally, Russell's comments about thermometers should be taken seriously. 

The rest of it, though, you should just laugh off.  :-)

 -Russell Mast
The "Calder Logo" is an official trademark of the City of Grand Rapids.

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Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 16:16:42 -0500
From: RZ28 at aol.com
Subject: RE: keeping my cool


I am new to the brew thing, only 8 extract batches so far (and so good!).

In HBD 1998 (I am a few issues behind) Clay asks:
>My apartment hovers aroud 76-80 F, and I want to ferment at 65 F or so.
>Besides investing in a THIRD refrigerator, does anyone have any creative,
>or even obvious, solutions?  Cheap is preferred, but not absolutely
>necessary.

* Cheap way to cool your beer and humidify your apartment. <g>
You might try putting your fermenter in a plastic keg bucket full of water
and 
slip a thick cotton t-shirt over the fermenter and into the water.  I am no
expert
but the evaporation should help drop your fermenter temp a few degrees, 
maybe someone who knows about energy conversion due to evaporation 
can post how well (or not) this might work.  

I have been having the opposite problem (temps too low) in my cellar. 
I have been rasing the temp by placing my carboy in a keg bucket full of 
water and using a 100watt aquarium heater to warm it to the appropriate temp.
 
Works great!

Thanks to all for the great information, reading the HBD has helped me alot!
~RZ


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Date: Tue, 2 Apr 96 14:34:54 CST
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: dry taste

Russell writes:
>> From: "Frederick L. Pauly" <flp2m at galen.med.virginia.edu>
>> Subject: Needed: Armchair analysis
>> 
>> Well, I think I have a problem and would like your expert
>> opinions. I have an Ale that leaves a dryish sensation on the
>> roof of my mouth and it stays there a long time  after swallowing
>> the beer.
>
>Tannins.  I'll bet you 20 bucks.  Your sparge water might be too hot.
>Your thermometer might be slower than you think.  (Like, it slows down 
>and seems to stop at some temp, but if you leave it long enough, you
>realize it's warmer than you thought.)  Or, it might just be giving
>you bad readings.  

Before you start counting your money, you had better consider if these
brewers have high levels of sulphates in their water (or are adding a
lot of gypsum).  Sulphates tend to take your bitterness and make it
linger in a dry sort-of way in your mouth.

>> through the sparge with 180F .
>
>Is that the mash in the lauter tun, or is that the sparge water?  THat's 
>pretty darned hot - if that's your grain temp, that's the source of your
>tannins.

It's probably their sparge water, but when will you all get it through
your heads that the problem with hot sparge water is *not* that it extracts
tannins (wouldn't boiling decoctions extract a lot of tannins then?) but
rather too-hot sparge water can extract unconverted starch from the grain!
If you keep your pH down, the temperature of the sparge is virtually
immaterial when it comes to tannin extraction.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at pubs.att.com
Copywrong 1996 Rusel Masstt
Copyright 1996 Al Korzonas

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