---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Re: New Digest Owners (rdg)
  Comments on Al's response to Woody / Homebrew Day--AUTUMN! (Robert Paolino)
  Jeff Jones: Fix your E-mail Address... ("Pat Babcock")
  Re. "Rob the janitor" (Matt_K)
  Decoction Mash (Fred Hardy)
  simple LABEL attachment/removal (Jan Luttner)
  Dry Ice (Adam Rich)
  Brewing Season ("Rich Byrnes")
  O-Rings (Jim Nasiatka-Wylde)
  Re: bottle cleaning ("Dave Higdon")
  Yikes! THe HBD is just PACKED! (Patrick Babcock - SLIP)
  HBD ownership change (U18183)
  Re: Decoction Mash (Spencer W Thomas)
  Skunke beer (again) (PAUL RYBAK)
  more summer brewing debate ("Tracy Aquilla")
  Re: dry ice (Spencer W Thomas)
  Re: HBD#2026 National Homebrew Day (Michael Lausin)
  I 'C' U 'C' Re Al "C's ("Olson, Greger J - CI/911-2")
  Re: Sale of Homebrew Digest (hollen)
  Dry Ice ("FINLEY, BARRY CURTIS")
  Muriatic acid as a cleaner. (Pre-installed User)
  Re: - Homebrew-Digest Moving Pains (Shawn Steele)
  Overkill (James Todd Hoopes)
  Unnecessary responses ("FINLEY, BARRY CURTIS")
  Re: RIMS problems (Jim Dipalma)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 16:13:49 -0600
From: rdg at hpfcmgw.fc.hp.com
Subject: Re: New Digest Owners


To all:

I have received a few queries about the new digest owners, and there
has been some mention in the digest about the Association of Brewers,
so I wanted to clarify a few things.

First, in case you don't know who they are, the Association of Brewers
(AOB) is the organization that runs the Institute for Brewing Studies,
the American Homebrewer's Association (AHA) and puts out Zymurgy. They
are a non-profit organization whose goal is to provide services for
brewers. Though they might not be properly called "non-commercial"
please remember that they are non-profit. I have assurances from them
they will maintain a "hands-off" policy with the Homebrew Digest, and
you are free to discuss the same things that you usually do. 

Why did I decide to give it to the AOB? There were several reasons for
doing so.  My main concern was finding a stable and secure home for
the digest, and I think the AOB is about as stable as it gets
Individuals can come and go, change jobs or careers, and things like
running a digest can fall between the cracks.  Another factor is that
the AOB is located in Boulder, Colorado, which is extremely close to
its present home in Fort Collins, and I thought that this proximity
would substantially ease the task of transferring the technology to
its new home. AOB also has the resources to spend to improve digest
services. For instance, the mailing list software needs to be updated
to use one of the popular packages (ie, majordomo) because the
administrative load has been getting excessive lately.

I have also gotten quite a few messages from people thanking me for
starting the Homebrew Digest and keeping it running for such a long
time. Just for the record, the very first digest was mailed in October
of 1986, nearly 10 years ago! It was sent initially to only a few
people, but several dozen people asked for copies, and by the time the
second issue was out the following month, there were 53 people on the
mailing list. I might repost some of the early issues here in the next
few days, just for your amusement at how primitive we were back then ;-)

Some people have asked *why* the digest is being put under new management.
The short answer is that I can no longer take care of it myself. I had
been thinking about doing this for the last year or two, since my interest
in brewing has fallen off quite a bit recently, and the digest does
take up a bit of time. More immediately though, a new work assignment
will take me to Sweden for most of June, and possible the Summer,
and this will make management of the digest very difficult. So, there
is some urgency right now to achieve the transfer of ownership as
soon as possible.

Any comments or suggestions are welcome, as always.


Rob Gardner
rdg at fc.hp.com

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Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 19:35:43 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robert Paolino <rpaolino at execpc.com>
Subject: Comments on Al's response to Woody / Homebrew Day--AUTUMN!

I'd written a reply to Woody the Belgian barleywine guy, but the post was
rejected for non-ASCII characters (those damn Smart Quotes on my newer word
processing software).  But the cc: to the brewer made it to its destination
and it looks like others noticed a few of the things I addressed, so I
didn't reposting in its entirety.  I had been concerned that my response
might have been a little harsh, but it looks like I toned it down a bit
much compared to these other responses:

The Unabrewer wrote:

>Sorry Woody... you've got big problems.  First of all, that 1.5 oz of
>Chinook, assuming a 5-gallon batch size and a generous 30% utilization
>(*before* accounting for the high-gravity wort) will give you only about
>28 IBUs.  That's probably about 1/4 of what you should have used.  The
>high-gravity of the wort means you only got a fraction of that 30%.

(See above post for what I wrote)

I agree it was WAY underhopped, but how did you get 28 IBUs--and that
assuming 50% higher utilisation than I did (30% v. 20)%?  Now I was
surprised that my calculation came out as high as it did (still too low for
a good barleywine), but there it was:  My scribblings say roughly:

(13.5% A * 1.5 ounces * 20% U ) / (5 gallons * 4/3), or approximately

 20 AAU * 20 U * 3
- ------------------------
       20

cancel the 20s, you've got IBU = = 60

I could easily see dropping the U% to 15, which would bring it down to 45
(which I suggested in my post), but 28??

Al also writes:

>Secondly, for such a high-gravity beer, a 250ml starter is 1/8th to 1/16th
>of what you should have used.

Al's right here.  I recommended a litre in my post, because if he's
starting from a Wyeast pack and making 250ml, he'd probably give up and go
to dry yeast if he thought he had to step it up to 2 (or 4!) litres.
Me?  I use at least a pint of _yeast_ (not yeast and starter "beer"), but
that's because I either visit a brewpub or use what I've built up from a
recent brew (back when I had time to brew that frequently), so it's not a
problem for me.  Hell, I'd probably balk if I had to go from a Wyeast pack
to four litres.  A litre starter would have been a step in the right
direction.  Better a small (but significant) improvement than to discourage
someone from doing it all.

The Unabrewer continues with wise advice about cooler fermentation and
aeration, although I was a rather more hopeful than Al about the alcohol
tolerance of the yeast:

>if your yeast get down to *1.065* in four weeks, you'll be blessed and
>that's only 50% apparent attenuation.  75% apparent attenuation means
>a FG of 1.033 which would require 13% alcohol tolerance (a feat even
>for Champagne yeast).  You may not get below 1.050 FG.  My 1.120 Imperial
>Stout stopped at 1.050.

I brewed one almost as big as our friends Al and Woody, and got down to
1.028.  Granted I had to repitch (more American Ale yeast, not Champagne
yeast) at just under 1.040, but it got there.  Had I used more yeast and
aerated more initially, I might not have needed the repitching.  And it
sure didn't take six months.  Also, I had natural carbonation without any
problem.

Obviously my experience doesn't guarantee that Woody (or Al) will have the
same results, but it's certainly possible, and maybe I was trying to
provide a little more encouragement to him than Al does to the beginners he
turns away from his store in May ;-)

(I'll defend Al on the homebrew day in a bit)

But first, Jerry....

Jerry gave us a graphic description of his yeast starter.  You may not need
to go to such lengths, but it's the right idea.  LOTS OF YEAST.  The other
way to do it is visit your local homebrewer-friendly micro or brewpub for
yeast.  

>You probably shoulda used more hops. OK, a lot more hops. I ran this thru

No question about that.

>Tinseth's hop claculator and got somthing like 38 IBU's. It'll be malty,
to

Why are we getting IBU calculations all over the place?  Have I made a
stupid mistake that should have been obvious to me?  At least Jerry's a
little closer to where I came out.  And I could see cutting down the
utilisation to 15%, which would make for about 45 IBU, so 38 is in the same
ballpark.

* * * * *
ANYWAY, now to defend Al on the Homebrew Day.  What a bunch of nasty
responses!  Turning people away from the shop is a bit extreme, but he's
well-meaning, even if it is at his financial expense.

Yes, those of us who have the capacity  to keep things cool (and have been
brewing long enough to learn the little tricks) can brew year around.  But
those simply add complications for a beginner.  So Al is right, imho, on
the idea of moving the homebrew day to autumn if the intention is to
promote the craft to newcomers.  I can also see it, though, as a
celebration to end a brewing season for those of us who _already_ brew, but
Al's argument is more compelling.

A few additional points, though, about the idea of a brewing season:

1.  Even if I had the capacity (or desire to take the additional measures)
to keep fermentation temperatures cooler in an 80F apartment, am I going to
want to _brew_ in that same apartment?  I enjoy warm weather, sure, but I
don't want to be sweating over a stove.  Some of you may be able to set up
the Cajun Cooker in the backyard, but I don't have a backyard (or a propane
burner), and I don't think my neighbours or building management would take
too kindly to a mini-inferno out on the balcony.

2.  Change and variety are good.  I can play hockey all year, too, and many
people join summer leagues.  But when the university closes down the rink
in May, I decide it's time to put the equipment away for a few months also. 
There are other things to do in the summer; so take a rest and enjoy other
aspects of life.  And let somebody else make the beer for you :-)  Save the
brewing for those winter weeks when you're inside (and not playing hockey
or cross-country skiing.)

3.  Finally, for Al and his (potential) customers.  Let 'em brew, sell 'em
the equipment.  Yes, caution them that it will get better when it's cooler,
but don't discourage them from that June-to-August brewing if that's when
they want to get started.  No, the beer won't be up to _our_ standards, but
I bet _they'll_ enjoy it.  It'll be better than the
Buttwipers/Miller/Coors/Dog Style their friends are drinking, and they'll
overlook the flaws anyway because of the magic of having brewed their own
beer for the first time.  It won't be _great_ (or maybe not even good)
beer, but it'll be _their_ beer and they'll have plenty of time to learn
how to make it better.



Now go have a beer,


Bob Paolino                                     
Madison                                    rpaolino at earth.execpc.com
You may now go back to your regularly-scheduled beer


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Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 22:11:43 +0500
From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: Jeff Jones: Fix your E-mail Address...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager....

Sorry for the waste of bandwidth, but the digest has been a bit on 
the thin side, so I figger it can stand it. Page down if your name 
ain't Jeff Jones...

PgDn +++ PgDn +++ PgDn +++ PgDn +++ PgDn +++ PgDn +++ PgDn 

JEFF JONES of CMCD-Folsom:

Your submission to the Homebrew Flea Market has been rejected for the 
very same reason I have to let you know here:

You have not completed setting up your e-mail account.
<your at email.address.here> is a little difficult to send mail to, and
just as difficult to reply to. Correct your account information, and
resubmit your "ad".  I think your items will go fairly quickly once 
people can reach you...

PgUp +++ PgUp +++ PgUp +++ PgUp +++ PgUp +++ PgUp +++ PgUp 

Again, thanks for your patience, and the use of a wee bit o'
bandwidth. I'll tip one in each of your honors (over the course of
my lifetime, anyway!)... 

See ya!

Pat Babcock in Canton, Michigan (Western Suburb of Detroit)
pbabcock at oeonline.com  URL: http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/
Visit the HomeBrew Flea Market via my homepage!
URL: http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/


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Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 08:07:08 est
From: Matt_K at ceo.sts-systems.ca
Subject: Re. "Rob the janitor"

In digest #2024 Mike Spinelli writes:

>I don't have a clue on what goes in to running the HBD, but I'd just 
>like to thank Rob for making it work.

I whole heartedly agree.  By looking after this Digest Rob has 
probably done more for homebrewing than any (most) of us can take 
credit for.  

Thank's Rob.

Matt
in Montreal 



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Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 08:19:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Fred Hardy <fcmbh at access.digex.net>
Subject: Decoction Mash


Wade asked for some guidance in appropriate recipes for decoction mashing.
On one level decoction mashing can be viewed as simply a method of
converting starches to fermentable sugars. Viewed this way, decoction
mashing is appropriate for any beer.

There are many beers that benefit from the Maillard reaction which occurs
during the boil of the decocted portion. The melanoidins formed during the
reaction impart a toasty, malty flavor and aroma to the brew. Some beers
benefit more than others. As a rule of thumb (remember, rule of thumb is
abbreviated "ROT") British beers do not derive much benefit from
decoction; Continental styles do (Pilsner, alt, kolsch, German lagers and
Bavarian weizens). The only indigenous American style where I think
decoction works well is California common (steam).

Cheers, Fred

==============================================================================
We must invent the future, else it will  |          <Fred Hardy>
happen to us and we will not like it.    |
[Stafford Beer, "Platform for Change"]   |    email: fcmbh at access.digex.net
==============================================================================


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Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 08:15:50 -0400
From: Jan Luttner <jluttner at scoot.netis.com>
Subject: simple LABEL attachment/removal

Hello fellow brewsters/brewers:

Discussions appear here every so often about label attachment and label 
creation (even old label removal).  First of all, while my time is better 
spent producing a fine brew than a fine label (yes, it's still drinkable 
without a label), there are times when a great presentation can be 
important (we might actually want to share some of our brews with friends 
;-) or enter a contest).  Since we drink with our eyes first, initial 
appearance should be inviting.

However you decide you'll create those labels we all need to adhere them 
to the bottles.   Like many of you I've tried a variety of attachment 
methods, everything from milk (simple but messy) to self-adhesive labels 
(expensive and tougher to remove).  I don't believe in buying those more 
expensive static-cling type labels.  Save your $$$ for brewing supplies.

The absolutely *simplest method* is to use a GLUE STICK.  A common and 
inexpensive one available in most stores, esp. office supply stores, is 
called a UHU STIC (no, I'm not affiliated in any way with this 
product...too bad).  It is completely water soluable.  It's labeled as 
non-toxic.  It even washes out of clothing (needed only if the kids are 
helping).

For the little you'd use, it is very economical.  There's no need to buy 
expensive papers of any type (unless you want to).  I rub a tad (smallest 
amount I can) along the right and left edges.  Of course, you could go 
all out and cover the entire label...I just don't see why you'd need to. 
I've easily removed labels from bottles stored like this since last fall.

To remove, simply tear off the majority of the label.  This leaves the 
small edges where you've run the glue line.  Under warm running water 
(that's all!) I use my thumb to rub off the old glue.  It's that simple! 
None of this "soaking for a few hours" stuff for me!  Never again do I 
want to soak off a homemade label...bad enough I have to soak those 
commercial labels (glad that's a one time deal).

TRY IT....you'll definitely like it.  Kiss those bottle soaking blues 
good-bye.  With all this time on your hands, shouldn't you be brewing?

Jan Luttner
NH Brewster


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Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 07:22:17 -0500
From: rich.adam at Mayo.EDU (Adam Rich)
Subject: Dry Ice

Hi,
        Isn't using dry ice to cool wort going a little too far?  I think
that it may be dangerous too.  Dry ice bubbles like crazy when put into
water, right?  Imagine what it might do to boiling-hot sticky wort!  The CO2
given off might splatter your kitchen walls, ceiling, garage floor..... and
You!  It really doesn't seem worth it.
        Moreover, I recall someone posting some time ago about the heat
capacity if dry ice. I recall that it was low so a very large amount would
be neccesary to cool 5-10 gallons of wort. I think that it is a lousy idea.
All these people using immersion or counter-flow chillers are probably not
wrong!
just my two cents,
Adam Rich
=======================================================
Adam Rich, PhD     Dept. of Physiology and Biophysics
richa at mayo.edu (lab)   or    arich at millcomm.com (home)
The Improved HomePage: http://www.millcomm.com/~arich/index.html 
=======================================================


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Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 08:32:25 EDT
From: "Rich Byrnes" <rbyrnes2.ford at e-mail.com>
Subject: Brewing Season

*************************************************                               

Caution, as May 4th approaches, please discontinue                              
reading the HBD, there can be no information worth                              
reading after may 4th.  Heck, even our esteemed                                 
janitor Rob Gardner is quitting for the summer,                                 
possibly forever, he may not come back in the fall!                             

I was going to ask a brilliant witty question, but                              
forget it, I wont be able to brew after this weekend                            
sigghhhhhhhhh................................                                   

*****************************************************                           

With apologies to Al, did I stir up a can of worms or                           
what?  ;-)                                                                      

Regards,_Rich Byrnes Jr                                                         
Fermental Order of Renaissance Draughtsmen     \\\|///                          
phone #(313)323-2613, fax #390-4520_______o000_(.) (.)_000o                     
rbyrnes2.ford at e-mail.com                         (_)                            


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Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 07:35:05 -0500
From: Jim Nasiatka-Wylde <Jwylde at interaccess.com>
Subject: O-Rings

>Way back when, Eric Peters <epeters at harris.com> said:
>
>I have some ten gallon soda syrup kegs (ball-lock) and I am
>having trouble finding replacement o-rings for the lids.  Can
>any of you offer any advice on good hunting grounds for o-rings?

W.W.Grainger or McMaster Carr would be good places for bulk,
or check out the local Ace Hardware, Sears, or the local auto parts
store.  You'll pay a bit more for the smaller packages of them
though.

>The o-rings are a smaller diameter than what is used for the
>typical 5 gallon keg, and appear to be fatter and spongier.
>McMaster-Carr has a pretty good selection of o-rings, but I'm
>not sure what material would be best (buna-n, viton, etc.)

If you can match the diameters, then you sholdn't have any 
problems with the materials.  Either Buna-N or Viton are pretty
standard, and are what's in standard kegs.  Make sure that they are
clean before using them.  If you really wanna get exotic, try finding
PTFE or Gore-Tex o-rings.  Of course you'll be paying $3 per ring...

The 'squishyness' either means that the O-ring is saturated and 
falling apart, or it has a softer durometer reading 
(material hardness - the higher the number, the harder or less
compressable it is)  Most o-rings you'll get in the stores are about
60-80 durometer.

Jim

All the money in the world is no match for hard work and ingenuity...
 ____
 \  /   Nothing is so strong as Gentleness;       JWylde at interaccess.com
  \/       nothing so gentle as real strength           Nasiatka at anl.gov


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Date:          Thu, 2 May 1996 08:47:58 EST
From: "Dave Higdon" <DAVEH at qesrv1.bwi.wec.com>
Subject:       Re: bottle cleaning

try soaking them in a bleach/ water solution. About 1 or 2 capfulls 
per 5 gallons of water

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Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 08:49:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Patrick Babcock - SLIP <pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com>
Subject: Yikes! THe HBD is just PACKED!

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Wow! Lot's of varying opinions out there on this "dumb thread". Much of
which I, well, er, I can concede the points. Yeah, a brewer can be faced
with some additional challenges in the summer, and perhaps *SOME* might
not be able to think around the corners, if you know what I mean. I really
don't like the thought of anyone turning a potential brewer away, though,
since that first batch is typically a kit-brewed-on-the-stove and
fermented in the basement/closet/old chevy. I can still remember some of
my first batches, made through pretty primitive (by today's standards)
means. I still say it ain't that big of a deal - but, apparently, that's
just me. 

Now, categorically:

Tracy: Yup - light hearted. Your points are, however, contrary to Al's. 
He contends brewing shouldn't be done in the summer (for newbies) due to 
the additional challenges. Your point (apparently) is that brewing 
shouldn't be done in the summer because of all the other fun one should 
be having. Or did I misread your post?

Scott: "Motor City Madman"? I prefer the more "PC" label of "Motor City 
Sanity-Deficient Person". Calm for me is an altered state, slander was 
not intended, um, let's see... 
 ... Oh! And a thread can only be as dumb as those participating in it! 
That's you 'n me, Kid!

Jim: Yup, 'tis true. I think we should have a few of'em, though. And I 
think they should all be on Mondays so I can have three-day weekends for 
them...

Schmidling: Hi, Jack! Glad to see you on the web! (Yeah, I know - you're 
not in this...)

Kelly: Good point! Hadn't thought in those terms. Hey! Where's the 
Brewery? You'd think those guys'd jump on it. (Drat! Another topic 
slipped in!)

Curt: Yeah. I think that was addressed. The water bath does work, though, 
and is a good suggestion to pass on to the newbies. Your pale ale 
probably wouldn't have turned to Pledge had you used it... 

Ken: See Al's post. It probably IS Charlie's Birthday!

Phillip: Thermodynamics and heat transfer are hardly voodoo and black
magic. Well, maybe if you don't understand them. I take the geek thing as
a compliment - Remember: geeks are a natural resource! Only YOU can
prevent ruined batches! I find most who are not destined for geek-dom tend
towards "the bag" or "the machine" for that first batch. Most - not all. 

Al: Very cogent response. That's why I respect you. Had I the cash, I'd 
be in the same racket. 'Tis true, sir! I envy you...

Well, well, well! Would seem a thread has popped up where none was 
expected! Cool! (Or not cool, I guess, would be more appropriate)

See ya!

Pat "The Motor City Sanity-Deficient Person" Babcock
"Get off your too-warm butt and make wit da brewing!" 
(apologies to Scott Abene)                 
Visit the Homebrew Flea Market via http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock
(C)Copyright 1996 Cree-ee-py Boy

                          


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Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 08:24:21 CDT
From: <U18183 at UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU> "Paul Sovcik"
Subject:     HBD ownership change

> On a related note, are any of you as scared as I am about the AHA taking
> over the HBD?

   Yes.  I really am a bit nervous about this.  As a HBD reader for the
last six years or so, I have seen quite a bit of Zymurgy and AHA bashing
in this forum.  I wonder if the AHA will tolerate this freedom of
expression -  I certainly hope so.   Hopefully, they will allow the HBD
to remain a self-regulated digest, and minimize AOB self-promotion.

 -Paul                                 PJS at uic.edu
Paul Sovcik,  Western Springs, IL

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Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 10:14:51 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Decoction Mash 

(Bohemian) Pilsner and Helles would be good choices.  Try this one:

Pils
for 5 gallons

9.5 lbs 2-row (preferably German Pilsner malt)
 .5 lb Cara-Pils (preferably DWC Belgian)

Lotsa hops (Saaz preferred)
	(OK, you want quantities?  Enough bittering hops to make about
	40IBUs (about 10 HBUs), an ounce of flavor hops at 20 minutes,
	and an ounce of aroma hops at the end of the boil.)

Mash-in to 40C with 6 quarts of water at about 44C (YMMV).  THis makes
	a stiff but manageable mash, and leaves you with some room to
	step with boiling water additions.  Hold 20 minutes.
Step to 60C with 7 quarts of boiling water (again, YMMV, this quantity
	works for me.)  Hold 15 minutes, then take about 1/2 the mash
	as a decoction (mostly grains, with enough water to make a
	"porridge".)
Heat the decoction to 70C (with stirring) and hold 15 minutes (it
	should become noticeably clearer ("darker") during this
	period).
Heat decoction to boiling, with frequent stirring, boil 30 minutes,
	stirring enough to keep it from sticking.
Return the decoction gradually to the main mash, stirring and checking
	the temperature, to bring the main mash to 70C.  If there's
	any decoction left over, let it cool to 70C, then return to
	the main mash.
Hold the mash at 70C until starch conversion has completed (could take
	another 30 minutes, shouldn't take much longer than that).
If you wish, you can mash out by taking a liquid decoction of about
	1/3 the mash volume, bringing it to a boil, and adding back to
	raise the temperature to about 77C.

Sparge 6.5-7 gallons.

Total boil time should be about 90 minutes, with bittering hops added
at 60 minutes from the end, flavor hops at 20, and aroma hops at the
end.

Chill to 50F and pitch lager yeast from a starter, also at 50F
(starter should be at least a quart, bigger is better -- let it
ferment out, and pitch just the slurry, not all the "beer").

For a quick-and-dirty dunkel, substitute Munich malt for about 1/2 of
the 2-row, drop the hopping level to 25 IBUs, and cut down on the
flavor and aroma hops (and probably switch to Hallertauer or
Tettnang.)

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)

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Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 09:23:27
From: PERSAND at gnn.com (PAUL RYBAK)
Subject: Skunke beer (again)

Well, I'm about to beat a dead horse!  When I asked if I dare take 
a pitcher of lager out to my pool in <shudder> BROAD DAYLIGHT I was 
advised that unless the beer was in an opaque pitcher and served in 
a ceramic stein, my beer would be SKUNKED!  I really do thank the 
writer for the reply and I'm not making fun of the response.  BUT, 
what about the liters of Octoberfest beers served in Germany?  Are 
they drinking hopelessly skunked beer; do they really like it; do 
they know what unskunked beer tastes like, or are taste buds killed 
after several liters?---SORRY, just a thought. :-)


On a lighter (liter) note, and inexpensive pH meter may be 
purchased from Edmund Scientific.  It's catalogue no. 35558, costs 
about $50 +freight.  Appears to be quite accurate and easier than 
pH papers.  Phone: 609-573-6250.  No affilliation etc.,etc.

Brewing in Morris, IL since 1990


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Date: Thu, 2 May 96 10:44:48 CDT
From: "Tracy Aquilla" <aquilla at salus.med.uvm.edu>
Subject: more summer brewing debate

In Digest #2026:
korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas) wrote:
>I believe I should have made myself more clear... the issue is airborne
>nasties.
>
>In the fall, winter and early spring, I can simply shake the carboy or
>rely on the natural aeration of pouring the cooled wort through a funnel
>to aerate the wort.  In the late spring and all summer long, I have
>problems with wild yeast.  I have been able to handle the wild yeast problem
>with a filtered aeration system, but how do I convince a new brewer that
>he/she needs this $40 aeration system (that isn't even mentioned in the
>brewing book that I include in the kit I sell) along with the $50 equipment
>kit?

If you pitch an adequate starter, wild yeast shouldn't be a problem. While I
realize that some wild yeasts are super-attenuative, I've never encountered
any of these critters in over 15 years of brewing year round (both coasts,
far north and south). I brewed some great ales (and lagers) last summer and
boiled/chilled them all outside. BUT, I think October would be a much better
time for Nat'l Homebrew Day.

Also, one should be able to set up a complete aeration system for about
$10-12. Go to a pet store, buy an $8 pump, a few feet of tubing and a couple
of disposable diffusers. If you're anal about sanitation, you can get a 0.45
or 0.22 micron filter, but I don't think that would increase the price to
$40, even if you don't have 'lab connections' like some of us.
Tracy


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Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 10:59:23 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: dry ice 

    Bryan> For those with access, [dry ice]
    Bryan> could be a cheaper method of cooling than a wort chiller,
    Bryan> which is pretty cheap itself.

Ok, let's do some math.

To cool 1 kg of water from 100C to 20C requires 80*4.19 = 335 Kj of
heat extracted.

Dry Ice has a heat of fusion of 9kj/mol (at its "melting point" of -57C).

Thus, it would require 335 / 9 = 37.2 moles of dry ice to cool
1kg of water.  Multiplying by 44g/mole gives 1.6kg of dry ice per 1kg
of water.  

To cool a 5 gallon batch would require 19*1.6 = 31kg = 68lb of dry
ice.

I don't think that 68lb of dry ice is very cheap.

*** Enter Technodweeb mode:

I made some simplifying assumptions above.  These include

* perfect heat transfer to the water.

* The heat capacity of gaseous CO2 is negligible.

* the dry ice is at its "melting" point.  If it's colder, it has, as I
recall, a heat capacity 1/2 that of water.  The effect is minor.  1.6kg
of dry ice at, say -67C, will, in effect, drop the temperature of 1kg
of water from 100C to 92C before it starts vaporizing.  Thus, the
total amount of dry ice required is reduced by about 10%.  (At least
one lab I know keeps its dry ice in a -70C freezer.)

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)

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Date: Thu, 2 May 96 09:13:55 MDT
From: mel0083 at mcdata.com (Michael Lausin)
Subject: Re: HBD#2026 National Homebrew Day

All of this talk about brewing in the summer, etc. Excuse me, but National 
Homebrew Day is on the 4th of May. If I remember correctly from grade school, 
etc. summer doesn't start until June 21/22. That's a whole month and a half 
away! Enough time to brew, ferment, bottle, and drink a whole batch of beer. 
Or 2. 

Besides, in most areas of the country (US of A) it doesn't get really hot until
July or August and by that time most people (if they're anything like me) 
already have another batch going before the last batch runs out. So if you time
it right you can skip the really hot times of the year.

As for summer being a time for the outdoors. Doesn't it ever rain in your
part of the country? Save brewing for a rainy day [unless of course you brew 
outside. But what the heck, you can always put an umbrella over the brew pot...
:) ] Better than sitting around and watching the tube!
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
michael at mcdata.com  Michael Lausin  McDATA Corp.  Broomfield, Co  303-460-4107
                  http://www.mcdata.com/~mel0083/brewing.html
The opinions expressed are mine, 'cause I'm the one pushing the keys!

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Date: Thu, 02 May 96 08:24:00 PDT
From: "Olson, Greger J - CI/911-2" <gjolson at bpa.gov>
Subject: I 'C' U 'C' Re Al "C's


>#include <stdio.h>
>main()
>{
>for(i=0;i<10;i++)
>        printf("I'm not in this for the money.\n");
>}
>
>Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
>korz at pubs.att.com

I C your point Al, but are you suffering from Java envy?  Perhaps you could 
write a HBD reader with an embedded interpretive language (Stout?) that 
would do automatic all-grain/extract conversions & IBU calculations whenever 
it parses a recipe.  ;-)
_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-  
_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
Cobol.  It is the language of the Living Dead, a decrepit tool that inhabits 
a hoary technological netherworld.  At the heels of this demon follow its 
minions, Lost Information Systems Souls who drone mindlessly to pollute 
American enterprise with billions and billions of wretched, fetid lines of 
code.   COMPUTERWORLD 4/25/94.
Mindlessly droning in Portland, OR
_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-  
_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-

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Date: Thu, 2 May 96 08:23:34 PDT
From: hollen at vigra.com
Subject: Re: Sale of Homebrew Digest

>>>>> "Kelly" == Kelly Jones <kejones at ptdcs2.intel.com> writes:

Kelly> Rob wrote:
>> This is to let you all know that it is likely that the Association of
>> Brewers will be taking over

Kelly> Does anyone else find this extremely distressing?  Although I
Kelly> appreciate all of Rob's effort over the years, and can
Kelly> certainly understand if he or his provider can no longer
Kelly> continue to support the HBD, would it be possible to hold out
Kelly> until we can find a noncommercial, unbiased sponsor?

Kelly> Although many fine things can no doubt be said about the AoB,
Kelly> they are also an entity which is directly or indirectly
Kelly> involved in making money from nearly every aspect of brewing
Kelly> and homebrewing.

I totally agree with Kelly.  From all the wrangling that has gone on
with the AHA backing out of the BJCP support, I certainly don't trust
them to be in charge of a fine independent effort like the HBD.

dion

- -- 
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x164                 Email: hollen at vigra.com
Sr. Software Engineer - Vigra Div. of Visicom Labs  San Diego, California

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Date:        Thu, 02 May 1996 11:27:21 EDT
From: "FINLEY, BARRY CURTIS" <BFINLEY at MUSIC.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Dry Ice

Since quite a few people have been posting about the use of dry ice,
I thought I would jump into the mix.  First of all, I have been curious
about using dry ice to cool the wort for quite some time.  I've read the
posts about how dry ice has bacteria and some oil and some other nasty
things in it, but when it was proposed that it could be used to cool
15 gal of wort, all of the responding posts were negative dry ice.  I
understand that putting the dry ice into the wort could possibly cause
some problems, but has anyone else thought of other ways that the ice
could be used without actually putting it dierctly into the wort.
What would be wrong with putting large chunks of the dry ice into
sanitized freezer bags. Hey, they make some pretty large bags, and if
this wouldn't satisfy your need for surface area you could put into
a five gallon trash bag.  Yet another idea.  Currently, I place my pot
into a sink and pack ice (regular) around it.  Then I run a little H20
to make an ice bath.  It works somewhat decent, but wouldn't it work
100 times better if it were dry ice that was surrounding my pot.
I feel that all of the above would be cheap, effective was of cooling
even large amounts of wort. If someone has already tried these methods
to no avail, please correct me before I brew again.  If not, I'll let
everyone know how good (or bad) everything works out.

Barry C. Finley

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Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 08:01:56 -0000
From: Pre-installed User <dimke at montana.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Muriatic acid as a cleaner.

In HBD 2026 Duffy Toler writes.=20
>The bottles are covered with a white, rough, scaly=20
>film. I have tried soaking, scrubbing, TSP, etc. to clean them with =
little=20
>luck.  I was thinking of soaking them in some acidic solution.  I have =
some=20
>Muriatic acid for cleaning bricks, would it be a really bad idea to =
make a=20
>weak solution with this to soak the bottles?  or how about white =
vinegar=20
>instead?
>
>Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated!
>
>Duffy Toler

Muriatic acid is HCl (Hydrochloric acid ) and typically is about 31% by =
weight or 10 molar.  I have found when working in the lab (yes I am a =
chemist as well as a avid homebrewer) that .1M to.5M HCl soak tends to =
clean out my hard water deposits on my glassware.  So to mix add 1part =
muriatic acid and 50 to 100 parts water.  I would soak overnight.  As =
for health use caution when diluting the acid. Remember acid into water =
not the other way around.  Glasses and gloves are a must as you probably =
already know.  Also, note that .1M HCl will eat clothing ever so slowly. =
 Spill ignore wash in a week and have a nice hole.   But the rinse and =
should leave your bottles quite clean.  If you are at all worried give a =
rinse in NaHCO3 solution ( sodium bicarbonate ) also found in your =
kitchen as baking soda.  Vinegar is acetic acid in about 1-3% a weak =
acid in low concentration.  I have had very little luck using this to =
clean things, especially minerals. =20

Brew on.
Mark Dimke
<Dimke at montana.campus.mci.net>


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Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 09:46:27 -0600
From: Shawn Steele <shawn at aob.org>
Subject: Re: - Homebrew-Digest Moving Pains

> Rob wrote:
> 
> > This is to let you all know that it is likely that the Association
> > of Brewers will be taking over

There were a few comments along the lines of:

> I would hate to see this become a forum where members feel hesitant
> to discuss their thoughts on Charlie, the AoB, the GABF, Zymurgy,
> Brewer's Publications, the AHA, contests, bottle caps, etc. for fear
> of censorship and/or loss of sponsorship.

We already read the digest :)  We WILL NOT censor or moderate the
Digest at its new home.  I personally thought that it would be nice to
offer the digest a home which could be permanent and not subject to the
change of anyone's job, access provider or whatever, and asked the
AOB/AHA if they would object to using their computers for this purpose.
Rob & I both expected there to be some concern on the digest and I hope
that I have alleviated your fears.  Rob impressed on me the need to
keep the digest continuing in the same fashion as it has been and I &
the AHA have agreed.

As a final note, please give it a few months and if the digest members
feel that it isn't working for them, we will willingly give it to some
other party who has the appropriate resources.  I am working hard with
Rob to make sure that nothing changes and that the Digest continues as
it has.

 - shawn

Shawn Steele
Webmaster
Information Systems Administrator
Association of Brewers            (303) 447-0816 x 118   (voice)
736 Pearl Street                  (303) 447-2825         (fax)
PO Box 1679                       shawn at aob.org          (e-mail)
Boulder, CO  80306-1679           info at aob.org           (aob info)
U.S.A.                            http://www.aob.org/aob (web)

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Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 23:28:02 -0500
From: Hoopes at bscr.uga.edu (James Todd Hoopes)
Subject: Overkill

Enough about the brewing season thing.  To each his own

*********************************************************************
Do unto others.. for given a reversal of situation they would surely
do it unto you.                 J. Todd Hoopes <Hoopes at bscr.uga.edu>     



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Date:        Thu, 02 May 1996 12:08:27 EDT
From: "FINLEY, BARRY CURTIS" <BFINLEY at MUSIC.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Unnecessary responses

I don't want to be acting like I'm holier tahn thou, but I read a
post that really pissed me off.
Someone asked for a receipe that would give them a brew similar to
Coors. Hey, I have no problem with this, I happen to drink Coors lite
when I don't have any homebrew around.  What made me mad was the
response of some unknow coward. This person didn't even have the
balls to sign his or her name to their response.  They gave some stupid
ass receipe like water, dog, bucket, bowl. They said to collect urine
and prime with corn sugar before bottling.  Hey, just because you
don't like this type of beer gives you no right to compare it to dog
urine.  My understanding is that we are all adults, we should act like
it. This means that if you wouldn't say it to their face, then don't
say it at all.  I have a feeling that if this wise ass went into some
of the bars that I frequent, and told someboby in so many words that
they were drinking dog piss, then he would be carried out on a stretch
(if he were carried out at all).
If you have no helpful hints, or bits of advise to give to someone,
then don't respond at all.

We all share a common intrest, there is no need to catagorize into
individual groups based on the type of beer we enjoy drinking.  And
there is definately no excuse to cut down someone because you don't
drink what they drink.

So, I'll shut up until I need some helpful advise, or can give some
myself.  Damn, this Coors is great!

Barry C. Finley

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Date: Thu, 2 May 96 12:24:55 EDT
From: dipalma at sky.com (Jim Dipalma)
Subject: Re: RIMS problems



Hi All,

In HBD #2026, Ron Moucka writes:

>I've
>noticed some talk about RIMS oversparging, and I wondered if I
>could get some help with a problem I'm having with my pseudo
>RIMS.  I've only done about 5 or 6 batches with it, but my
>extraction seems to be extremely poor.  Averages around 23 to 25
>instead of my usual 27 to 29 with my old system.  Never have hit
>the 30's.  I recirculate the mash for about half the mash time.
>Hitting the right temps don't seem to be a problem.  Last batch I
>noticed the mash seemed unusually acidic, ~4.7.

  Ron, I don't think the problem is oversparging, or your RIMS equipment.
At 4.7, the pH of your mash is way too low. The optimal pH range for amylase
enzyme activity is roughly 5.2 - 5.4. In addition to low extraction, you
would likely see sluggish conversion as well.
  My guess would be that it's a water chemistry problem, though it's very
difficult to say so definitively without more details of your mash-in
procedure. Are you adding gypsum, dark malts, or anything else to your mash??
When are you taking the measurement, before or after starting recirculation??
If you are simply mixing the base malt and water, then measuring the pH
before starting the recirculation and getting a pH of 4.7, I'd say a little
calcium carbonate may be in order. Please post some additional details.

>I'm not getting a very good cold break, despite the fact that I'm
>cooling with an imersion chiller as I always have.

  As the brewing process progresses, the wort becomes more acidic. Let's say
your mash was 5.2 - 5.4, and you acidified your sparge water to about 5.8.
The resulting wort should be about 5.6 - 5.8 going into the boiler. During
the boil, as alpha acids are extracted from the hops, the pH drops further.
At the conclusion of the boil, the pH should be roughly 5.0.
  If your mash was at 4.7, I think it's likely the wort delivered to the 
boiler was already under 5.0. Poor break formation is one symptom of
overacidified wort (source: DeClerck (sp?), Miller). 

>The
>fermentations have been wierd too.

  Overacidifaction can also result in sluggish yeast performance. A good
starting pH for beer yeast is about 5.0, I think (Tracy??). If the wort pH
was under 5.0 when you started the boil, it's would have been considerably
lower than 5.0 when the yeast was pitched. Since pH drops even further
during fermentation, it may be getting to a point during fermentation where
yeast performance is adversely affected.

  Every problem you've cited, low extraction, poor break formation, strange
yeast performance can be attributed to poor pH control. I honestly feel
that's what you need to look at to solve these problems. Please post some
details of your mash-in procedure, include a water analysis if possible,
let's see if we can nail this down for you.

            Cheers,
              Jim              dipalma at sky.com

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