---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Keeping fermenter cool (Brian S Kuhl)
  Skunked beer (again and again) (Steve Alexander)
  Overkill... Say what? (Rob Reed)
  Fear, Loathing, and a tip. ("Gregory, Guy J.")
  Grain Mills (Pre-installed User)
  CABT/MIBE (Russell Mast)
  Sale of HBD. (Russell Mast)
  Re: CABT/MIBE (Russell Mast)
  Hot climate brewstores / megabrews ("Dave Hinkle")
  HBD at aob and more (Denis Barsalo)
  Wort Chilling ... Again (JIM ANDERSON)
  Good Luck (Bill and Dianna)
  HB Day (Steve Waddell)
  Brew-Rat-Chat Forums (Scott Abene)
  AoB, National HB Day, and HSA (HuskerRed)
  fetal alcohol syngrome (BOBKATPOND)
  100% O2 for aeration (Mark Redman)
  Grow Up!!! (Michael T. Bell)
  HBD handoff - *some*body has to do it (Dick Dunn)
  Building a virtual brewery! ("William G. Rucker")
  some + and - responses. ("FINLEY, BARRY CURTIS")
  remove me from list (Simon McLaren)
  Please remove me from your mailing list (Katayama Katsuyuki)
  PLEASE REMOVE ME FROM YOUR MAILING LIST (Katayama Katsuyuki)
  Decoction/Water analysis (A. J. deLange)
  Alternatives to Peche Lambic (Mark Peacock)
  That ole' dingy-white magic (Cree-ee-py Boy)
  Help on Hop Horticulture! ("Clark D. Ritchie")
  New Brewing Water ("Michael S. Branigan")
  Maine Que & Brew (Kit Anderson)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 03 May 96 11:27:00 PDT
From: Brian S Kuhl <Brian_S_Kuhl at ccm.fm.intel.com>
Subject: Keeping fermenter cool

Many thanks to the one (whom I forgot) who suggested placing a 
fermenting carboy into a pail of water and wrapping the fermenter with a 
towel while letting the towel wick water from the pail.
This worked very well even WITHOUT the fan blowing on it. We had a 
typical summer day the last two days here in Sacramento. The temperature 
hit 97 degrees F. (The inside temp was 84 degrees).
I am now only curious about how well it will do on our hot days of 110 
degrees!
Should I keep the bottles cool as well, after bottling?

Many thanks
Brian

PS: I wasn't worried; I just drank a home brew...

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Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 12:42:57 -0400
From: Steve Alexander <stevea at clv.mcd.mot.com>
Subject: Skunked beer (again and again)


Paul Rybak writes ...
>Well, I'm about to beat a dead horse!  When I asked if I dare take 
>a pitcher of lager out to my pool in <shudder> BROAD DAYLIGHT I was 
>advised that unless the beer was in an opaque pitcher and served in 
>a ceramic stein, my beer would be SKUNKED!  I really do thank the 
>writer for the reply and I'm not making fun of the response.  BUT, 
>what about the liters of Octoberfest beers served in Germany?  Are 
>they drinking hopelessly skunked beer; do they really like it; do 
>they know what unskunked beer tastes like, or are taste buds killed 
>after several liters?---SORRY, just a thought. :-)

They apparently don't have skunks in europe, so the light-struck aroma
is referred to as a catty or civet one.

Hmmm  - I'm pretty sure I said that hoppy lightly colored beers are
particularly skunkable and gave my experience with a hoppy ale in a
summer garder as evidence.  Marzen is a medium dark beer with a
relatively low hopping rate, compared w/ say a Czech plzner or
american pale ale.  I believe I saw a lot of ceramic (tho unlidded)
steins on the Octoberfest pictures I saw a while back too. In any
case, what a marzen tastes like in Germany on a (likely overcast)
September day is peripheral to your example.

It's a matter of degree and should depend on the ambient light, the
clarity of the beer and container, the hopping rate, and according to
some recent posts the treatment of the iso-humulone. Up until the last
year or so it was impossible to get a bottle of Pilsner Urquell or a
Grolsch (both in green bottles) locally that wasn't somewhat skunked.
Since you still doubt the power of nasty rodent odors and the
aromatron hasn't been invented yet why don't you try a simple test ?
Take an Urquell after tasting it indoors, and then leave it in a clear
glass in direct sunlight for 10 minutes and see what you think. If you
don't instantly sense the difference then you've either got a troubled
sense of smell or else you need to bury that dead horse.

Stevea

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Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 14:39:42 -0400 (CDT)
From: Rob Reed <rhreed at icdc.delcoelect.com>
Subject: Overkill... Say what?

Adam writes:

>Isn't using dry ice to cool wort going a little too far?  I think
> that it may be dangerous too. 

Depending on how you employ the dry ice to cool wort, it could be 
dangerous, but how could it be interpreted as going too far
considering the widespead use of such techniques and equipment
as counterflow chilling, recirculating infusion mash system 
(I mean George Washington didn't need no stinking temperature
servo to make Porter 8<), and how about injecting pure oxygen
and building up 1 quart starters from a loopful of yeast?  What
about homebrewers who sterile filter and then bottle under 
pressure and three tier half barrel brew systems.  How about
a 1 barrel pilot brewery with an underground pipe from the
brewhaus to the fermenting room?  I can only say that I am
guilty of using more than one of the above...

Isn't that the beauty of homebrewing, that you are only limited
by your imagination and the credit limit on your charge card?

Cheers,

Rob Reed

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Date: Fri, 03 May 96 13:57:00 PDT
From: "Gregory, Guy J." <GGRE461 at eroerm1.ecy.wa.gov>
Subject: Fear, Loathing, and a tip.


Fear:

> On a related note, are any of you as scared as I am about the AHA taking
> over the HBD?

Loathing:

Is there reason for fear?  As a long time lurker, Rob has performed a 
thankless task with skill. Clearly, anyone who has done so much for so long 
with no tangible reward is truly an honorable man.  To suggest other than 
pure motives for the change is outrageous.

AOB will either perform as well as the past, in which case no significant 
change will occur; or they will not, in which case most of us will go 
elsewhere, and this remarkable phenomenon will pass.  If this is all we have 
to fear, we're doing pretty well. Hold on to your towels, folks.  The 
universe will continue.

My personal best wishes to you, Rob.  Sincere thanks for your efforts for 
the international  brewing community.

A tip:

I'm lagering in a old corny keg.  I cut off the bottom 1/2" of the out tube, 
and took out the valve from the in-tube.  Brew magazine has a cockamamie 
contraption for attaching an airlock involving a whole bunch of stuff.  I 
used, instead, a 2 inch length of 1/2" ID clear tube, into which I inserted 
a 3" length of 3/8 " ID, 1/2" OD tube, into which I inserted my airlock. 
 It's acceptably rigid, and the airlock is bubbling away happily.  My 
refrigerator does not have a dangerous buildup of CO2 in it nor does it 
smell, as the Brew magazine article suggested, and I am not light the 40 
bucks or so for the stuff they advised.  Anybody have any better ideas?

GuyG4 at aol.com...Lightning Ck. Picobrewery.
The only beer on tap at the Restaurant at the End of the Universe

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Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 13:59:53 -0000
From: Pre-installed User <dimke at montana.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Grain Mills

Hi all,
I have been brewing more and more and as such have started to buy grain =
a bag at a time.  Have finally decided that it would be nice to have my =
own grain mill.  This way I can just brew when ever....assuming I have =
the proper hops on hand of course!   Have searched the FAQ's and can not =
seem to find any info on these do dads.

Anyway, I have seen the Phils mill and the Corona mill in the catalog =
but neither impress me.  The mill my local homebrew place =
uses(Hellroaring Homebrew) is made by Jack S. ( Can't remember the full =
last name...sorry)  It is a great mill,  crushes well and is easy to put =
a drill on the crank shaft to speed things up a little( a lot actually). =
 Any opinions on these mill and any others out there that the rest of =
you recommend?  Where is the best place to get them? =20

TIA  Private e-mail ok . =20
Will post a summary if there seem to be a lot of input.

Rich and Mark
Brew Partners in Kraeusen.


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Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 16:02:44 -0500
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: CABT/MIBE


> From: Jim Nasiatka-Wylde <Jwylde at interaccess.com>
> Subject: Chicago Area Beer Tasting

> Where:  LaPiazza
> When:   May 17, 1996 7pm - 2am
> Cost:   $10

Dude.  I'm there.

> Proceeds go to sponsor two riders who are participating in the Chicago to
> Minneapolis AIDS ride, and I *think* it's tax deductable, but I ain't sure.

It is almost certainly not tax-deductable.  I'm no tax lawyer, but I'm pretty
sure that if you receive -anything- for a donation, it's not considered a 
donation by the taxman.  Still, how much taxes will we save from 10 bucks, eh?
(I do think that if someone just donates money straight-up, outside of the 
10 bucks, it might be, though.)

Speaking of the 17th :

A friend of mine just handed me something cut out from the Windy City Times
(I think) which advertises some OTHER beer event in town, at the Bismark.  
Jim Kroch, Wicked Pete, Jake "the snake" Leinenkugel, some guy that looks like
Dom Deluise, the professor and MaryAnn (Herman B'hoff and W. Littlefield) are 
all going to be there.  The per person prices are running $30 at the door per 
event, with several events per day.  (They actually range from $15-$100.  I'm 
not gonna type in the whole schedule here.)  I'm just shocked that so far no 
one has mentioned this yet.  (The threeday special is $439, or 349 if you skip 
dinner on Saturday.)  Most of the events are referred to as "Tasting Seminars".
It runs from the 17th to the 19th.

Anyone have any idea what the heck this is about and why this is the first I
hear of this, from Dirk of all people.  The MIBE sounds a bit hoky to me.  
There's one seminar called "Women in Beer".  (I think women brewing is great,
but I don't think it's going to TASTE different, so why have a "tasting" 
seminar about it?)  I might go to one on Saturday afternoon, the 18th, a 
"Special Event" on Belgian Beers and Belgian Cheeses.  (It's 2-3pm, but it's
$25 freakin' bukx, man.) 

So what's the deal?

On a final note, EVERY day is Homebrew Day as far as I'm concerned, and you're
all silly as pie to be argueing about it.  (And Pat, saying "But he started
it!" will not work this time.)

 -Russell Mast
Copyright 1996, Don Van Vliet

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Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 16:12:53 -0500
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Sale of HBD.


And another thing.  If the AoB screw up the digest, we start another somewhere
else.  No problem.  Unless and until they begin actually censoring the content
of posts, I don't give a rat's ass who's running the show.  The most they'll
likely do is use it as a bully pulpit, and be able to respond and react to 
criticism more quickly than the rest of us, but that might serve to make them
better neighbors anyway.

And, frankly, I think we've all grown accustomed to looking a gift horse in 
the mouth.  Unless YOU volunteer to take over the digest, then don't complain
about someone else doing so before they even have a chance to manage it.

I haven't offered to take it over because it's too much time and trouble.  
And money - I'd have to get another e-mail account, because I don't think 
my boss would care for me using company resources for such an effort.  (I
use enough as it is.)  But, if something happens to -really- screw it up,
I may grumble, but I will have little grounds for complaints without making
a real effort to having it moved.

And besides, it's not China taking over Hong Kong so much as vice versa.  

 -Russell Mast
copyright 1996, David Wills

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Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 16:27:03 -0500
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Re: CABT/MIBE


Correction: the MIBE announcement was in New City, not Windy City Times.  
As commercialized as the whole thing looks, I'd bet it's also in the 
Reader, the Trib, even the Sun Times.  But who reads those, anyway?

 -Russell Mast
copyright 1996, Carl Phillip Emmanuel Bach

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Date: 03 May 1996 15:21:18 -0700
From: "Dave Hinkle" <Dave.Hinkle at aexp.com>
Subject: Hot climate brewstores / megabrews

All this commotion about brewing in the summer is kind of
amusing to me here in Phoenix.  Our "summer" is about from
March through November, with the truly hot (over 100F) part 
being May through September.  Of the two brew stores I
frequent, one closes it's doors for about 3 months during the
peak heat.  The other is open year-round, with live demos
of how to overcome the obstacles to reasonable fermentation
temperatures.  Water baths w/ towel-wicks and fridge controllers
are all on display with staff ready to answer questions.  But
the store that stays open admits that most sales during summer
are from the "regulars".  So I guess it depends on how concerned
a store is for its regular, loyal customers.  It is no doubt a tough
time of year to get new homebrewers.  It is definitely more
work for me during the summer making sure my fermenters
stay in the right zone.  But not too hard, since I keep the house
at 82F, so we're only talking about a 10-15 degree required
drop.  I use a 2" thick styrofoam box I made to cover a couple
carboys.  Each morning, I swap one of those large "blue ice"
things with one from the freezer placed between the carboys.
It keeps the fermenters in the mid 60s.  Just another morning
ritual, like getting the paper, fresh water for the dog & cat, etc.
Someday, I'll get an old fridge and a controller, but for now my
$10 setup works just fine.  You guys up north w/o AC, well
boo hoo hoo.  Guess you'll have to buy your beer, which brings
me to my next topic.

Barry C. Finley makes a good point about being close-minded 
to megabrews.  If someone were to ask a _knowledgeable_ brewer
how to make something similar to Coors, he'd simply tell them 
(not retort w/ extreme bias against such a style).  When I am in-
between batches, yes, I actually BUY beer.  One of my choices
is Henry Weinhard's Boars Head Red.  It's $6-7 a _12_ pack of
bottles.  You can actually taste hops in it, which is pretty RARE
for a $.55 bottle of beer.  Sure, I'd like to drink Sierra Nevada, but
the price is more than double.  Maybe it also helps me appreciate
my own hoppy ales more after having to wait a couple of weeks
between batches now and then.

And...
I never met a free beer I wouldn't drink. (OK, except for
a friends first batch that tasted like Listerine.  But at least I
TRIED it).  I feel that we are teetering on beer snobery when
we refuse a beer because it may not be "up to our standards".
Beer is a bit like sex in that when it's good, it's REALLY good,
but when it's bad, it's STILL pretty good.

Sorry for the rambling, but it seems like the amount of technical
articles have been waning lately.  So thought y'all wouldn't mind
a little fiber in your digest.  Maybe the lack of atricles is 
indicative of a widespread summer brewing hiatus?!!!
 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Hinkle
Phoenix, AZ

Homer: "Thanks for coming to my party.  Wow, you brought a
whole beer keg!"
Barney: "Yeah.  Where can I fill it up?"
- -------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 19:16:58 -0500
From: denisb at cam.org (Denis Barsalo)
Subject: HBD at aob and more

        I am very confident that the HBD will live on for a long and happy
life in the hands of the AOB. Let's not forget that this is Rob's baby and
if he's willing to let it go to the AOB, then we should respect his
decision. He of all people knows what's best for the HBD.

        Tomorrow is National Homebrew Day and I'm brewing a Bavarian
Pilsner. The cold room in the basement is still around 48 to 52 degrees and
when time comes to lager it for a few weeks, I can move it to a spare
fridge.
        I started brewing in Feb of 95 and have brewed over 25 beers since
then. That's an average of a batch every few weeks! I didn't stop when the
summer came, I just brewed ales! I don't plan to stop this summer either.
Actually, I was sort of planning on brewing a steam beer this summer. Any
suggestions for a recipe? (All-grain prefered!) What about the yeast?

Denis Barsalo (in Montreal)



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Date: Fri, 03 May 96 10:06:00 -0500
From: jim.anderson at execnet.com (JIM ANDERSON)
Subject: Wort Chilling ... Again


Hi all ...  Just yesterday I got a dynamite deal on a used SS 10-gal.
brewpot.  But alas, it won't fit into my sink for my customary ice bath
(combined with immersion chiller).

I've thought of two options (given my apartment setup, i.e. no bathtub
convenient): (1) throw ice cubes (from bottled spring water) directly
into the wort, compensating for evaporation; or (2) pouring from the
10-gal. into the 5-gal. and then proceeding with my normal chilling.  If
(2) then I imagine I'd still put the immersion chiller into the boiling
wort 5-10 minutes prior to finish, transfer the chiller first, then the
still high-temp wort.  Should I be concerned with aeration while still
hot?  (NOTE: I'm talking about 5-gal. batches.)

Any thoughts, comments, suggestions?  Email is fine, with my thanks in
advance!

  - Jim

 

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Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 19:40:59 -0700
From: Bill and Dianna <shewolf at sound.net>
Subject: Good Luck

Rob,		
	We've only been getting the Homebrew Digest for about one week.  
>From what we can see you've done a wonderful job on the Digest.  We hope 
that the AOB will do as well as you have.
	Thank you for putting your time and effort into promoting home 
brewing, and assisting the brewers with valuable information.
				
				Have a good time in Sweden!
					Thank you again
				Bill and Dianna Watt
	Don't worry.... have a home brew!!



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Date: Fri, 3 May 96 21:18 EDT
From: waddell at iglou.com (Steve Waddell)
Subject: HB Day

>Date: Thu, 2 May 96 09:13:55 MDT
>From: mel0083 at mcdata.com (Michael Lausin)
>Subject: Re: HBD#2026 National Homebrew Day
>
>All of this talk about brewing in the summer, etc. Excuse me, but National 
>Homebrew Day is on the 4th of May. If I remember correctly from grade school, 
>etc. summer doesn't start until June 21/22. That's a whole month and a half 
>away! Enough time to brew, ferment, bottle, and drink a whole batch of beer. 
>Or 2. 
>

Seems to me that, by having HB day in may that we are being ever so PC, by
being fair to our brewing brothers and sisters in South Africa, South
America, Austraila, etc.  

Lighten up (emotions, not beer).  ANY recognition is a good thing.
Of course, here in Kentucky USA May 4 is Derby Day (this year), and 
ain't nothin else gonna get any recognition!

>Besides, in most areas of the country (US of A) it doesn't get really hot until
>July or August and by that time most people (if they're anything like me) 
>already have another batch going before the last batch runs out. So if you time
>it right you can skip the really hot times of the year.
>
>As for summer being a time for the outdoors. Doesn't it ever rain in your
>part of the country? Save brewing for a rainy day [unless of course you brew 
>outside. But what the heck, you can always put an umbrella over the brew pot...
>:) ] Better than sitting around and watching the tube!

Any thing beats the tube.  June/July is just the time for brewing outside.
Rain keeps the wild beasties down, but use a tarp.  Umbrella is too small.
- ---------------------------------------------------
Steve Waddell  -  waddell at iglou.com

It is a good thing that we don't get all the government that we pay for!
                                          - Will Rogers


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Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 20:58:54 -0500
From: Scott Abene <skotrat at wwa.com>
Subject: Brew-Rat-Chat Forums

Hey everyone, 

I have added a list of Brewing Forums to be discussed on the Brew-Rat-Chat
on a nightly basis. If you have any Forums that you would like added please
email me and let me know what they are and if you would like to host them.

Once again the URL of the Brew-Rat-Chat is:

http://miso.wwa.com/~skotrat/Brew-Rat-Chat/


Brew-Rat-Chat Forum Schedule: 

   Monday, 7 PM (CST): Extract brewers Forum
   Tuesday, 7 PM (CST): Ale Brewers Forum
   Wednesday, 7 PM (CST): Lager Brewers Forum
   Thursday, 7 PM (CST): Belgian Ale Brewers Forum
   Friday, 7 PM (CST): All-Grain Brewers Forum
   Saturday, 7 PM (CST): Trouble Shooters Question & Answer Forum
   Sunday, 7 PM (CST): Beginner Brewer Forum


Later, 

Scott


####################################################
#                ThE-HoMe-BrEw-RaT		   #
#           Scott Abene <skotrat at wwa.com>	   #	
#           http://miso.wwa.com/~skotrat           #
# (Skotrats Official Homebrew "Beer Slut" Webpage) #
#                        OR                        #
#    http://miso.wwa.com/~skotrat/Brew-Rat-Chat/   #
#  (Skotrats Brew-Rat-Chat Homebrew Chat System)   #
#         "Get off your dead ass and brew"         #
####################################################


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Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 07:40:36 -0400
From: HuskerRed at aol.com
Subject: AoB, National HB Day, and HSA

Hello Neighbor- 
 
A couple of issues I must take issue with, AoB and National Home brewers 
Day.   
 
I think it's great that AoB is going to devote some of it's resources to 
HBD.  I don't think that they would stand to gain much with censorship.  
If something like that would happen to me, I would go through my last ten 
issues of HBD and extract all the e-mail address and e-mail all of you my 
problem, once having a large lynch mob, we would drowned AoB with the 
complaints.  I don't expect this to happen however.   Hugh Graham 
mentioned that Zymurgy might take some tidbit and republish them.  They 
did this to me, but only after asking permission and offering some *beer 
money*.  I let them publish my tip in exchange for a subscription (thanks 
Dana:-).  If they were going to unscrupulous about, they would already be 
doing it. 
 
And now about NHB Day, I think fall is a better time for it if it's to get 
newbies interested.  A friend was sorta interested a couple of months ago 
but has put off doing much until the fall, citing softball, camping, and 
his pool as being to time consuming during the summer.  Another problem is 
boiling a couple of gallons of wort for and hour or so heats and 
humidifies the house.  I probably wouldn't of brewed again (or until fall) 
after my first batch if I would have done it in the middle of August.  
Since I can brew outside and just bought a chest style freeze, I will be 
brewing all summer long, got to have that Bohemian Pilsner! 
 
- ----- 
 
A question about hot side aeration, when does it become a concern?  Can 
HSA happen in the mash and the sparge?  Or does boiling remove it's effect 
and only happen after the boil? 
 
Lager on, 
Jason Henning 
Big Red Alchemy and Brewing 
 
Wealth make materialism easier to bear -- P.J. O'Rourke 


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Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 08:52:45 -0400
From: BOBKATPOND at aol.com
Subject: fetal alcohol syngrome

from "Tracy Aquilla" <aquilla at salus.med.uvm.edu>

>Nothing personal, but I'm not so sure it's "well known fact"; some say it's
>merely folklore. While the perception that an occasional beer might produce
>fetal alcohol syndrome is based mostly on ignorance, and I'd honestly like
>to believe that the consumption of beer in moderation is good for everyone,
>including nursing moms and babes, I prefer to get my facts from documented
>resources.

Fetal alcohol syndrome has nothing to do with nursing mothers, it is an in
utero problem. Here is a quote from Harrison's "Principles of Internal
Medicine" since you are such a skeptic. "Cases of fetal alcohol sydrome
observed to date have occured only in children born to severely alcoholic
mothers who continued to drink heavily (80 ml absolute alcohol per day)
thought their pregnancy."

Bob Morris

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Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 09:00:58 -0400
From: Mark Redman <brewman at vivid.net>
Subject: 100% O2 for aeration

I've been using 100% Medical Grade O2 (I work in a hospital lab) to 
aerate my worts for quite some time now with great result. I have 
an "E" cylinder of O2 with a standard dual guage regulator, connected
to 3/16" ID tubing and a SS aerating stone I purchased from Liquid 
Bread (who also manufacture their own disposable O2 cannisters).
I know we have had threads before about how the fear of over-oxygenating
the wort is not a worry, since Fix's original calculations of high
O2 levels did not take into account that they quickly dropped down 
to managable levels.
My question to the collective masses:

Does anybody using 100% O2 vary the amount of oxygenation depending on 
the style, S.G., and fermenting temp?

To give an example, I just brewed another all grain Sierra Nevada Pale Ale
clone (yummy) that had an O.G. of 1.050, but finished with a gravity of
1.010  Since the grain bill included 3/4 lb of crystal malt and 1/2 lb
of carapils malt I would have thought the final gravity would have been
a little higher (BTW, I used Wyeast Chico American ale yeast with a 1
pint starter). I'm guessing that the yeast got a little too giddy from
all that O2 (I could occasionally hear squeals of delight emitting from
the carboy) and knocked my attenuation up to about 80%. 

Currently I pre-oxygenate by running O2 into the carboy until the head-
space fills with foam, then repeat the process about 3 to 4 times over 
the next several hours. Is this more than necessary? I know if I was
fermenting a doppelbock at 50 degrees I would oxygenate the hell out
of the wort with no worry, but I'm guessing that normal gravity ales could
probably be happy with only one long burst of O2; normal gravity lagers
with 2 to 3 bursts of O2 and high gravity lagers even more. Anybody
else have experience in this area? Comments? Suggestions? Financial
Contributions?

Thanks,

Mark Redman  

brewman at vivid.net       http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/4980


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Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 11:05:46 -0500
From: mikeb at flash.net (Michael T. Bell)
Subject: Grow Up!!!

To all concerned(you know who you are),

     I think some people here have forgotten what this digest is all about.
STOP THE BITCHING!!!!!  I think I speak for many when I say that I'm sick
of reading a slamfest involving about 4-5 persons that takes up about 50%
of this forum.  Who cares WHEN National Homebrew Day is.  Lets just be
happy that there is one.  Think about a new brewer looking at the digest
for the first time lately.  He/she would have run screaming.
   If you want to verbally asault each other, do it by E-mail or better
yet, on the phone so it can be done with quickly.  Lets talk about beer for
Gods sake and not stick pins in vodoo dolls of each other.


I feel much better now,


mtb
beer is good food



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Date: 4 May 96 11:07:55 MDT (Sat)
From: rcd at raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: HBD handoff - *some*body has to do it

Regarding handing off the HBD - folks may have valid concerns about the AoB
taking over, but come on!  Rob needs to give it to someone who will actually
DO the work, not just ponder the philosophical implications.

I know that Rob made a serious effort to find a new janitor, starting well
before the recent "advertising" for the position in the HBD.  I'd discussed
it with him--since I already handle the cider and mead digests--much earlier.
It turned out I wasn't going to be able to do it; I figure I lost any right
to gripe about Rob's choice when I made that decision.  I assume Rob chased
around contacting various plausible candidates and that the general HBD
appeal was the last shot at finding someone.  If you don't like the choice
of AoB, ask yourself why you didn't volunteer to take it on, or who could
have taken it instead of AoB...if you don't come up with a good answer,
well, there's your explanation.

Dealing with a digest can be a lot of hassle, especially with the ever-
increasing amount of twisted, misconfigured, just-plain-bad mail software
and the fact that most subscribers are careless about unsubscribing or
changing addresses when they move on.  This makes it hard to find someone
to handle a large digest like HBD.

If the AoB does OK, there's no problem.  If they screw up, it *is* possible
to start a new digest--assuming someone cared enough to put the effort into
starting and running it.
- ---
Dick Dunn      rcd at talisman.com      Boulder County, Colorado  USA
   Turn off the tube.  Hang up the phone.  Get out of the car.  Log off.
   Get out and live for real!

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Date: Fri, 03 May 96 14:09:53 EST
From: "William G. Rucker" <ruckewg at naesco.com>
Subject: Building a virtual brewery!

     Hellllooo  HBDers,
     
     I am starting up a project that I hope might find some interest in 
     some of you fellow brewers. I have been puttering around with some 
     ideas about building a 3 vessel brewery for myself. I have looked 
     around at some of the commercial offerings and they just cost too much 
     money. I have some ideas but am unsure of some of them. 
     
     I-D-E-A
     
     I am going to create a web page that kind of starts with a few design 
     features and using the HBD and private email, design a brewery that 
     suits many tastes. Any and all help will be welcome. No suggestion too 
     small, no comment too weak. I will display as much of the information 
     as I can get on the web. The page should be up in a few days, in the 
     meantime think about what we as "the digest" can do. 
     
     I am going to guinea pig the final design. I will keep track of all 
     costs and a complete material list. When completed I will provide the 
     designs to any who wish to build it. When construction is complete, 
     hopefully by the fall breweing season, Hi Al, we can fine tune it 
     together and make it as good as it can be. 
     
     I look forward to your help and the more participation the better.
     
     
     Bill Rucker
     
     brewzer at peanut.mv.com
     
     please don't reply to the address this Email is coming from. Use the 
     one above. Thanks!


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Date:        Sat, 04 May 1996 18:40:17 EDT
From: "FINLEY, BARRY CURTIS" <BFINLEY at MUSIC.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject: some + and - responses.

Hello to all of my fellow brewers.
I would like to let everyone know some of the responses I have received
in regards to my last post about unnessecary responses and posts.
Adam Rich wrote:
"Just for the record, I think Coors sucks. The greatest thin about the
HBD is that I don't have to worry about someone beating me up for
expressing my opinion."

Well said Adam, you shouldn't have to worry about getting beat up just
because you express your opinion, but that was not the point of my post.
I never said that I personally beat up people simply because they have
a different opinion than I do. In fact, you completly misunderstood
my post. It had nothing to do with me thinking Coors is a good beer or
not. I guess I will simplify things for you a bit. The point of the post
was to simply let people know that I am tired of reading trash posts
that shouldn't have even been written in the first place. I was also
trying to get people to quit putting down others simply because they
don't like the same types of brews. Isn't that their own opinion?
Just as you shouldn't have to worry about expressing your opinion
without getting harassed, shouldn' others be afforded the privilege of
asking for a receipe without having someone harass them? Enough said.

Douglas King wrote:
"I just wanted to think you for saying exactly what should have been
said a long time ago. We don't need immature, childish responses on
HBD; the bashing needs to stop."
Hey Douglas, I'm glad to see that you understood what my post was about.

J. Todd Hoopes wrote;
"There no need to clog up the net with your profanity and protracted
whining".

To this all I have to say is that If I offended anyone by saying balls
(maybe I said asshole too), then I am truly sorry. But I have heard much
worse language from 2nd graders. Totally off the subject, I know, but I
heard a preacher say GD once.  But serioulsy, If my use of words truly
offended anyone, I would like to apoligize.

To all of you who stand behind me, I thank you very much. To those of
you that don't, I did not mean to make you mad. However, I refuse to
apoligize to those that think acting unadult-like on HBD is OK. If
you have anything important to say to me, please don't think that I
will hunt you down and beat you up for expressing your opinion. But
I will post nothing further on the subject, since I have nothing else to
say about it.
Barry C. Finley






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Date: Sat, 4 May 96 23:21 MDT
From: smclaren at rmi.net (Simon McLaren)
Subject: remove me from list

Please tell me how to remove myself from your mailling list
I am possibly under a defferent address;  smclaren at rmii.com
Simon McLaren


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Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 00:01:43 +0900 (JST)
From: katayama at st.rim.or.jp (Katayama Katsuyuki)
Subject: Please remove me from your mailing list

SIGNOFF HOMEBREW


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Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 00:01:52 +0900 (JST)
From: katayama at st.rim.or.jp (Katayama Katsuyuki)
Subject: PLEASE REMOVE ME FROM YOUR MAILING LIST

SIGNOFF HOMEBREW


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Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 09:59:00 -0500
From: ajdel at interramp.com (A. J. deLange)
Subject: Decoction/Water analysis

Adam Rich asked whether decoction results in "..destruction of protein, from
boiling, tannin removal from the husk, and therefore cloudy and astringent
beer." It does. Perhaps destruction of protein is a bit strong as the
protein is not actually destroyed but rather coagulated and precipitated.
This leads to one of the advantages of decoction mashing: much of the trub
is left behind in the lauter tun and does not have to be removed from the
kettle or the chilled wort later on. Tannins and silicates are, of course,
also leached from the grain husks during the decoction boils. Some of these
complex with the protein and are removed during lautering but others remain
in solution. One of the major reasons for the traditional long lagering
times associated with decocted beer production is to give these tannins
time to complex with protein and settle out.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Pat Humphrey submitted a water analysis and asked for comments. There is
some question in my mind as to whether this is of general enough interest
to be here or if it should have been put into private e-mail. I'll post it
here and you can all let me know whether I should do this in the future or
not.

                        mg/L                    mg/L
Hardness, EDTA total    2.4     Alkalinity      251
Chloride                1.6     Fluoride        0.93
Nitrate & NO2           0.01    Sulfate         62
Calcium                 40.7    Sodium          35.4
Ammonia-N               0.4     Magnesium       39.1
Potassium               1.9     (ROE) TDS at 180C  3.1?

                        ug/L                    ug/L
Copper                  10      Manganese       15
Strontium               1400    Iron            407

Hardness Calc.          262C mg/L
pH = ~6.3

The "Hardness, Total EDTA" number is a mystery. Hardness is measured by
titration with EDTA. No number involved in the titration calculation comes
up 2.4 for this water sample. It's total hardness is 102 ppm Calcium + 162
ppm Magnesium = 264 ppm all as calcium carbonate. This is close to the
"Hardness Calc." number and probably differs only because of roundoff
error. Thecalcium levels is nice but magnesium is high to the point where
you may notice a sour quality to beer made from this water. The big problem
with this water is the alkalinity at a whopping 251. This water will have
to be decarbonated before use for anything but beers which contain a lot of
dark malts. Boiling should work the problem being that you never know how
much you precipitate without doing a post boil analysis. You can get
hardness test kits from pet stores and you might try that. As most of the
hardness is temporary, removing calcium and magnesium will take the
alkalinity with it. The problem is that more calcium than magnesium will go
and the former is required for mashing. Your sulfate level is already high
so that replacement of the lost calcium with gypsum is not an option for
many styles of beer but is OK for many ales. Calcium chloride would be a
good choice as the chloride level is so low. Sodium is somewhat high but
should not be a problem as chloride is so low. The TDS number does not make
sense. TDS should be about 500 for this water and it is never, as far as I
know, stated at 180C but rather standardized to a lower temperature where
it is determined by conductivity which is the ususal case.

Iron is not too bad but you may be able to taste it at this level. Iron
removal equipment is available for installation in the incoming water line
or you can thoroughly aerate the water and then filter it through a foot or
so of clean sand. This should get most of the iron out.

The strontium is a bit of a surprise but not a problem unless it is
Strontium -90 which it isn't or your city wouldn't be supplying you with
this water. Do you live in the mid-west?

All in all this isn't the greatest brewing water. You may wish to consider
installation of RO or ion exchange (anion and cation) equipment for your
brewing needs but will then have to add salts to the water for each batch.

A.J. deLange   Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore!
ajdel at interramp.com



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Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 14:46:38 -0400
From: Mark Peacock <mpeacock at oeonline.com>
Subject: Alternatives to Peche Lambic

Accompanying me on business trips to Brussels, my wife developed a taste for
peach (peche in Brussels) lambics.  I would always stay at the SAS Hotel
near the Grand Place and also just a block away from the Mort Subite beer
hall.  I would hit the gueze while my wife would go after the peche.

Here in the US, however, my wife's taste for lambic is a bit expensive --
$5-7/bottle.  I'd like to be able to brew a decent alternative without
maintaining a refrigerator full of bacteria cultures unless I absolutely
have to.  My thought is to first try a (style puritans may wish to avert
their eyes) fruit wit.  If she doesn't like that, I'll move to the infamous
Wyeast Brett-ale yeast combo.  And if that doesn't do it, I'll give up and
do the whole yeast-Brett-Pedio sequential innoculation.

Any thoughts/suggestions/warnings would be appreciated.

Regards,
Mark Peacock
Birmingham, MI
mpeacock at oeonline.com


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Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 14:58:22 -0500 (CDT)
From: Cree-ee-py Boy <phillip at mcs.com>
Subject: That ole' dingy-white magic


	So quoth Pat:

> Phillip: Thermodynamics and heat transfer are hardly voodoo and black 
> magic. Well, maybe if you don't understand them. 

	I *understand* heat transfer and thermodynamics.  I also, as an
experimental physicist, understand the primacy of empirical evidence, and
in Batavia throughout most of the summer, the wet t-shirt method *does*
*not* *work.* It's too humid to allow much heat loss due to evaporation
and too hot for the small effect it has to be enough.  Maybe in Detroit
one runs the risk of frozen yeast, but here you might as well wave a
chicken foot at your fermenter, unless you have a basement or AC. 

> I take the geek thing as a compliment 

	As any CBS member can tell you, it's not an insult.  However,
assuming that all or even most of the new brewers will be geeks is a bit
optimistic. 

> - Remember: geeks are a natural resource! Only YOU can 
> prevent ruined batches! I find most who are not destined for geek-dom tend
> towards "the bag" or "the machine" for that first batch. Most - not all. 

	Not sure I believe that; a non-geek might read a newspaper article
about brewing, or else watch "The Beer Hunter" and get the CD-ROM, with
its shop listings.  Heck, maybe they look in the phone book under "Brewing
Supplies."  Maybe they ask a beer-geek friend.  All of these can produce
leads to brewing equipment that never get one close to a machine or bag. 

							Regards,
							Phillip


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Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 12:21:30 -0700
From: "Clark D. Ritchie" <ritchie at ups.edu>
Subject: Help on Hop Horticulture!

All:

I need some advice from seasoned hop cultivators out there.  I was a little
slow in stringing up a trellis for my hop vines this year and in the
meantime, one of my vines decided to climb up the lattice work in my back
yard.  Well, in doing so, it became very tangled very quickly.

About two weeks ago, I finally got around to rigging up a some twine for my
plants and when it came time to unwind the vine that had chosen my lattice
work, I accidentally snapped or broke the vine about 3 feet from its tip.
No worries, I thought, so I continued to unwind the vine and later rewound
it around the twine.

After examining the place where I snapped the vine, I decided that I'd
better just cut it off because it was going to die back anyway.  So I
snipped it off and let it be.  Well, yesterday, I was out back examining the
condition of my vines and I noticed that on that one plant, the core of the
vine had disintegrated about 1.5" from where I cut it and it appears to be
rotting out.  The rest of the plant looks OK with big, green leaves.

Now my question: does it matter if one cuts a hop vine?  Better yet, does it
matter where on the vine one cuts?  On some plants, if you snip near a leaf
or other point on the plant, it stunts its growth.  Should I re-cut the vine
in another location, say near the closest leaf junction?

Thanks... CDR

PS - I'd also like to chime in and thank Rob for all his hard work with the
digest.  Like so many others, the HBD has been a wonderful resource of
beer-related wisdom.  I look forward to future editions!
Clark D. Ritchie, ritchie at ups.edu


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Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 19:45:06 -0400
From: "Michael S. Branigan" <mikebran at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: New Brewing Water

Fellow Brewers....

I am in the process of moving to a new home which has a well, rather 
than city water I am used to for brewing, and had an analysis by a local 
lab as part of my pre-purchase plan. Naturally, I am concerned about the 
flexibility I will have for brewing different styles in the future and 
would like to get some opinions as to what I can expect to brew in my 
new home. 

Most of my brewing now is single step infusion all-grain using an Igloo 
cooler and a steam generator for mashout. Some day I plan to try 
multi-step mashing with this set-up as I get more experienced. Anyway, 
here is the test results and would appreciate any opinions or comments 
on what I can or cannot do with this water.

Units are in mg/litre unless otherwise noted.

pH = 6.8
Chloride = <5.0
Nitrate = 0.65
Hardness (as CaCO3) = 19.9
Calcium = 5.35
Copper = <0.05
Iron = <0.05
Lead = <0.002
Manganese = <0.02
Sodium = 5.50

Thanks in advance for your comments.

- -- 
*******************************************
Michael S. Branigan
E. Greenwich, Rhode Island

mikebran at ix.netcom.com
MikeB10468 at aol.com
*******************************************

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Date: Sun, 05 May 1996 22:15:01 -0400
From: Kit Anderson <kit at maine.com>
Subject: Maine Que & Brew

The Maine Que & Brew scheduled for May 11-12 has been cancelled by the
organizer.
He hopes to reschedule in September and apologizes for any inconvenience.
Kit  Anderson
Bath, Maine 
<kit at maine.com>
The Maine Beer Page  http://www.maine.com/brew


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