---

   FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
        Shawn Steele, Digest Janitor
        Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!

Contents:
  HUNTER AIRSTAT (DONBREW at aol.com)
  HUNTER AIRSTAT (DONBREW at aol.com)
  Propane cookers (aldrich at mail.his.com (Dan Aldrich))
  Re: Lager temps, yeast (johan.haggstrom at ped.gu.se dv dv    (Johan H\dggstr\vm))
  'text-book' crushes/the last 10% (STROUDS at cliffy.polaroid.com)
  5 Liter Keg Cleaning ("Bessette, Bob")
  Immersion  Chillers (Michael K. Cinibulk)
  Re: '100% fruit beers' ("Tracy Aquilla")
  Hose length/carbonation (waterr at rpi.edu (Bob Waterfall))
  Keg thread (h.smith at e-mail.com)
  Re: Beer In Chicago (so nobody else has to ask) ("Roger Deschner  ")
  Digest Lateness (shawn at aob.org (Shawn Steele))

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DONBREW at aol.com
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 08:27:50 -0400
Subject: HUNTER AIRSTAT

>Subject: calibrating Hunter temperature controller
>
>I have been using a Hunter air conditioner thermostat to control the 
>temperature of my chest freezer for several years.  The thermostat has 
>apparently lost much of its accuracy.  It's digital readout is set at 50F 
>but a dial probe thermometer, located next to the thermostat temperature 
>probe, reads 33F.  Occasionally the thermostat reads high if it gets wet. 
>However, this condition has lasted for weeks.
>
>Has anyone had any similar experiences?  Can the temperature probe on the 
>Hunter thermostat be calibrated, or is it necessary for it to be cleaned, 
>repaired, or replaced?
>
    Don't get the probe wet.  There is a tiny circuit board inside with only
one component on it, a thermistor (replacement available at Radio Shack!!!,
the only one they carry).  Anyway, if you get it wet A)the water will cause a
bad reading and B)cause a corrosion on the circuit board between the solder
points.
    My suggestion is to go to Radio Shack and get a new thermistor to attach
to the probe wire, then make a new probe by inserting the thermistor into a
brass tube after GOOP(tm)ing the assembly to seal up the tube and insulate
the solder connections.  You could use silicone or epoxy I suppose.

Don   

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From: DONBREW at aol.com
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 08:29:18 -0400
Subject: HUNTER AIRSTAT

>Subject: calibrating Hunter temperature controller
>
>I have been using a Hunter air conditioner thermostat to control the 
>temperature of my chest freezer for several years.  The thermostat has 
>apparently lost much of its accuracy.  It's digital readout is set at 50F 
>but a dial probe thermometer, located next to the thermostat temperature 
>probe, reads 33F.  Occasionally the thermostat reads high if it gets wet. 
>However, this condition has lasted for weeks.
>
>Has anyone had any similar experiences?  Can the temperature probe on the 
>Hunter thermostat be calibrated, or is it necessary for it to be cleaned, 
>repaired, or replaced?
>
    Don't get the probe wet.  There is a tiny circuit board inside with only
one component on it, a thermistor (replacement available at Radio Shack!!!,
the only one they carry).  Anyway, if you get it wet A)the water will cause a
bad reading and B)cause a corrosion on the circuit board between the solder
points.
    My suggestion is to go to Radio Shack and get a new thermistor to attach
to the probe wire, then make a new probe by inserting the thermistor into a
brass tube after GOOP(tm)ing the assembly to seal up the tube and insulate
the solder connections.  You could use silicone or epoxy I suppose.

Don   

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From: aldrich at mail.his.com (Dan Aldrich)
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 10:19:05 -0400
Subject: Propane cookers

I've been looking around for a propane cooker and finally my wife bought me
one(lucky guy). When I read the instructions, it said the weight limit for
the cooker was only 50lbs, not much weight at all by brewing standards. This
isn't a small unit either; 170,000btu.

Does anyone have a favorite burner that they like that can handle a more
reasonable load?

Thanks,
- -Dan
____________________________________________________________________________
Dan Aldrich                                                  aldrich at his.com
                                  "Wine is Sunlight, held together by water"
                                                                   -Galileo


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From: johan.haggstrom at ped.gu.se dv dv (Johan H\dggstr\vm)
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 16:48:54 +0100
Subject: Re: Lager temps, yeast

>Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 22:40:27 -0400
>From: HuskerRed at aol.com
>Subject: Lager temps, yeast, Longshot, and pints

>I've recently bought a deep freeze a t-stat set-up for lagering.  The 
>freezer will hold five 'boys (pilsner all summer:).  I've got the 
>temperature set at 50F.  I want to use it for primary and secondary 
>fermentation.  I've got two batches in it now.  The first one took forever 
>to take off and the second one did great since I racked the first one off 
>and used the dregs for the second one.  My question is, is this to cold 
>for primary, even if I use large starters?  If it is to cold, what range 
>should I shoot for? 

>What's anyone got to say about #2278 Czech pils and #3333 German wheat? 
 
>Jason Henning 
>Big Red Alchemy and Brewing 

Hi!
The Czech pils yeast (#2278) is excellent. I've used it for several consecutive
fermentations in a similar way that you describe. My fridge is down in the
basement where it already is quite cool. Inside the fridge I can get a temp
close to zeroC. The #2278 will work great down to 1-2 C. Right now I have
40 liters of pilsener bubbling happily at that temp.

Johan Haggstrom, Goteborg, Sweden



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From: STROUDS at cliffy.polaroid.com
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 12:30:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 'text-book' crushes/the last 10%

JackS sez:

>So if we start with ......  the Pre-adjusted MM
>and then tighten up one end of the spacing to about the
>same as the closest spacing on a multi-stage mill, guess what
>happens? The overall distrubution starts to look like it went through a
>multi-stage roller mill.

This statement is at odds with the sieve results (measured by Siebel) we 
obtained for a single pass through an adjustable MM.  In terms of crush 
distribution, the MM was not significantly better or worse than other 
two-roller mills available to the public, and none of them approached the 
'ideal' numbers published in The Practical Brewer.  I can think of several
reasons to buy the MaltMill, but _quality of crush_ (vs other grain mills) is
not one of them. 

JS>Run it through again or make the rollers
>longer and it gets even closer.  

I don't know about the longer part, but Jack is right about the second pass.  
We saw that a second pass through a two-roller mill will indeed make the crush 
start to look more like a multi-stage roller mill.  

This point reminds me to ask Jack a question.  Jack, in the past you've quoted 
George Fix's review of the MaltMill and its ability to produce a 'text-book'
crush (Fix gave sieve results in which the MaltMill produced a crush virtually
identical to those obtained from an industrial six-roller mill).  Will you
state for the record how Fix's numbers were acheived - i.e., were they a single
pass, a multiple pass at one setting, or a multiple pass, changing the spacing
between passes? 

************
Bill (billg at maine.com) wrote...

>Many folks are happy with the MaltMill and 28-30 pppg.  I would much rather
>have a yeild of 31-35 pppg.  That last 10 per cent is where a lot of the flavor
>resides.  Aside from better flavor.  I paid for the malt and I will get
>everything I can out of it. 

Unless you are referring to astringent flavors, 'a lot' of the flavor is not 
found in the last 10% of the runnings.  The most malt character and least 
astringency are found in the mash water  (One can get ~70% of the yield [~21 
pts/lb/gal] by simplying draining the mashtun without sparging, assuming a mash 
of ordinary thickness).  

Homebrewers can get superhuman extraction rates and squeeze dimes out of
their grain bed if they wish to, but as George Fix pointed out in the last
issue of Zymurgy, "In brewing, efficiency and beer quality are not always in
harmony." 

Cheers,
Steve Stroud

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From: "Bessette, Bob" <bob.bessette at lamrc.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 96 09:43:00 PDT
Subject: 5 Liter Keg Cleaning

Fellow Brewers,
 I have a question about cleaning out the 5L Kegs. I typically just fill 
these with B-Bright and let them sit for a while and then rinse and turn 
them over so they can drip dry. What I do notice is that I always end up 
getting a little bit of what appears to be rust in the inside of the 
opening. I simply run a paper towel in the hole that the bung goes in and 
rub the top of the keg. There always appears to be a little bit of rust on 
the paper towel.

 Is there a better way to dry out these kegs other than just turning them 
upside down and letting them run out? You can never get all of the water out 
and I would imagine that this is what is causing the rust. Any ideas?

Bob Bessette
bob.bessette at lamrc.com



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From: Michael K. Cinibulk <cinibumk at ml.wpafb.af.mil>
Date: Thu, 23 May 96 13:45:34 -0400
Subject: Immersion  Chillers

John Chang writes "The most important considerations in the construction of 
the chiller are:

1) to have the input end of the tube enter the coil from the top (heat rises).

2) build the coil diameter large enough to facilitate stirring.

3) build the maximum surface area of tubing that will fit in the boiling 
vessel
as long   as the  entire coil structure remains submerged."

I have a problem with 1).  I have heard this before many times but from what I 
remember of my Chem. Eng. heat transfer course (admittedly 14 yrs ago) you 
want a countercurrent heat exchanger to maximize transfer of energy.  Meaning, 
the coolest part of the water enters where the coolest part of the wort is; 
this would be at the bottom of the pot.  Otherwise, with the water entering 
the hottest part first (effectively cocurrent), during cooling you could at 
some point actually heat the wort at the bottom with the heated cooling water, 
due to the natural thermal gradient (if large enough) in the pot.  Granted 
this is an extreme case, but at the very least it would reduce cooling times. 

Or, am I missing something?   

Mike Cinibulk..........cinibumk at ml.wpafb.af.mil
Bellbrook, OH



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From: "Tracy Aquilla" <aquilla at salus.med.uvm.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 May 96 13:53:05 CDT
Subject: Re: '100% fruit beers'

In Digest #2042:
Al K wrote:
>Some people have reported success with them, but I've yet to taste
>a good homebrewed or commercial beer made with fruit extracts.
[snip]
>in fact, I told the server "this is made with extract" or "this is made
>with real fruit" and they confirmed....

I entered two different fruit beers in a recent competition. One was made
with fresh ripe raspberries, the other with apricot extract. The apricot ale
took first in the fruit beer category. The judges seemed to think it was
made with fresh fruit. Brewers Resource apricot 'essence' fooled 'em!
Tracy


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From: waterr at rpi.edu (Bob Waterfall)
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 13:54:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Hose length/carbonation

Jay Reeves <jay at ro.com> asks:
>Can anyone tell me if this is true reguarding psi drop
>for line length/diameter:
>
>size            psi drop per foot
>
>3/8" ID         0.25
>1/4" ID         0.85
>3/16" ID        2.2 - 3
>
>My problem is that I use the 3/16" and am experiencing no
>where near the 2.2 -3 psi drop per foot.

The data may be correct, but only for a certain set of circumstances.  You
really can't transfer those results to your setup.  Kelly Jones correctly
points out:
>if your keg is at 12
>psi, then the pressure drop from the keg to your glass is always 12 psi,
>regardless of your hose length.  It is not possible to specify a pressure
>drop per foot of hose, as the pressure drop per foot is dependant both
>upon hose diameter AND flow rate.

I don't know where that data came from but it would have to be based on a
few assumptions or fixed conditions.

First of all it probably assumes laminar flow (as opposed to turbulent
flow), this should be OK since we're TRYING to find how much tubing will
provide enough friction to get rid of velocity induced turbulence that
causes the foaming.

It also assumes a constant viscosity.  This is *not* OK.  Viscosity is
actually related to the temperature and composition of the beer and it can
make a big difference.  A doppelbock served at 40 degF would probably have
quite a different viscosity than a mild bitter served at 55 degF.
Unfortunately, my chem. engg. references don't include the viscosity of beer
over a range of temperatures and specific gravities.  The Chem Engg Handbook
does have values for water, 40% ethanol, and 100% ethanol.  The pure ethanol
actually behaves somewhat like water, but the 40% solution is so far from
them that I wouldn't even guess what a 5 to 10% solution would do.  The 40%
solution's viscosity changes by about a factor of 1.6 between 30 and 60 deg F.

As Kelly pointed out flow rate affects the pressure drop.  Even for laminar
flow and everything else equal, the head loss per foot will be directly
proportional to the flow rate.  However since we're only interested in a
flow rate that will fill a pint in a reasonable amount of time, that
assumption is somewhat justified.  Some people may be willing to take more
time to pour a pint than others.

With all that out of the way, the head loss per foot of hose should be
roughly inversely proportional to the diameter to the fourth power or
HL1/HL2=(D2/D1)^4 for a given set of viscosity, and flow rate.  The data
above is close but does not quite follow that relationship.

>I carbonated and serve at 12psi.  I figured the hose
>length 2 different ways: 1) all the pressure drop
>across the hose length and 2) pressure drop over the
>line length and spigot (thru the door mount).
>
>Both methods produced about the same results.
>
>I figured 5.4 ft of 3/16" hose needed to drop that 12 psi.
>Opened the tap and the beer/foam comes out at warp.  I
>finally got my hose length up to 16 feet to get the right
>pressure at the tap: 0.5 psi or 1 pint every 10-15 seconds.
>I know my regulator's not wrong - checked it against 2
>other guages and check the pressure in the keg.  I know the
>beer's carbonation is right because it had it's carbonation
>with the 16 ft line.  The drop I experienced was .75psi per
>foot.
>
>What gives?

I did some calculations and (I think) your beer had an absolute viscosity of
about 4.5 centipoise or 0.00304 lbm/ft-sec (assuming 1 US pt/ 10 sec).  The
head loss data you gave in the table (2.2 - 3 psi per foot) would result
from viscosities around 1.7 to 2.3 centipoise assuming the same flowrate.
Alternatively, when I assumed the same viscosity as yours, I got a flow rate
of 1 US pint per 3.4 seconds.  This would put the flow in the hose well into
the turbulent range, so that assumption can't be right.  Thus I'm left
figuring that they had a different viscosity than you.  I'm curious what the
temperature and alcohol content of your beer were.  Does anyone have access
to beer viscosity data or know how the data Jay quoted were derived?

BTW, for my kegging system I just use the length of hose that came with the
faucet and fiddle with the pressure until I get reasonable head and flow
rate.  Then I just deal with the amount of carbonation that ends up giving.
All this calculating and research was just an excuse to dust off some
reference books.
Bob Waterfall <waterr at rpi.edu>,
Troy, NY, USA


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From: h.smith at e-mail.com
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 14:13:06 EDT
Subject: Keg thread

Darrin P. asked if anyone is interested in a keg thread. Well, hell, I guess
I am. There's gotta be lots to learn. Can I start by asking what is the flow
rate supposed to be??? How long to fill 12 oz? or 16 oz? As long as it's
comin' out and I'm carbonated, I'm pretty happy. And if I'm not carbontated,
I'm still not too upset.
Howard

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From: "Roger Deschner " <U52983 at UICVM.UIC.EDU>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 12:15:01 CDT
Subject: Re: Beer In Chicago (so nobody else has to ask)

I'm posting this here to PREVENT the further waste of badwidth from
having somebody post "tell me too". There are going to be a lot of
visitors to Chicago this summer, for Comdex, the Democrats, and more.
Here's where to go. (Save this if you are coming to the Windy City soon.)

GOOSE ISLAND BREWERY, 1800 N. Clybourn. Chicago's original brewpub, and
still its best. New batch SUMMERTIME KOLSCH now on tap is one of their
best Kolsches yet. PORTER is always reliable at The Goose. Good food.
Tours on weekend afternoons only. Some beers brewed offsite at their new
microbrewery plant, which is strictly a brewery and bottling facility
with no pub or tours.

CLARK STREET ALE HOUSE, Clark  at  Chicago. Not a brewpub, but has 20-some
taps of top all-US Micros. A favorite spot of the local "beer geeks". No
food.

ROCK BOTTOM BREWERY, State  at  Grand. A representative, but not
extraordinary, example of the chain. Locals do favor it because of its
extremely convenient location, very nice pool tables, and good food. CTA
trains at the door will whisk you directly to either Comiskey Park or
Wrigley Field for baseball without any driving or parking hassles.

VILLAGE TAP, 2055 W. Roscoe. largest number of micro taps in the city.

PUFFER'S TAVERN: 34th  at  Halsted. You mentioned baseball, and this is very
close to Comiskey Park. Good micros and good imports, on draught,
highlight this "traditional Chicago Neighborhood tavern."

BERGHOFF, Adams  at  State. Beer made at their own brewery in Monroe,
Wisconsin, as it has been for decades for this century-old German
restaurant. If you just want beer, go to the stand-up bar.

IN THE SUBURBS: Much of the brewpub scene in Chicago is actually out in
Suburbia, at TAYLOR in Naperville (SW), MICKEY FINN'S in Libertyville
(N), WALTER PAYTON'S in Aurora (SW), MILLROSE in Barrington (NW),
WEINKELLER in Berwyn (W) and Westmont (W). Brand-new FLOSSMOOR STATION in
Flossmoor (S), and something in Downer's Grove (SW) probably will not be
open in time for Comdex. I know I'm forgetting something hidden out there
in the boonies.

Roger Deschner      University of Illinois at Chicago     rogerd at uic.edu
Aliases: u52983 at uicvm.uic.edu    R.Deschner at uic.edu     USUICZ3P at IBMMAIL
=============== "Civilization was CAUSED by beer." =====================

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From: shawn at aob.org (Shawn Steele)
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 13:03:43 -0600
Subject: Digest Lateness

The digest is being slow, but you should still receive it eventually.
I have modified the transmission method which should improve the speed
of this and future deliveries.  If the transmission time cannot be
brought under control by Friday's digest, Rob & I have an alternate
plan to improve timelyness.

I am forcing this digest to be sent early partially as a test.

- - shawn
Digest Janitor

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