---

   FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
        Shawn Steele, Digest Janitor
        Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!

Contents:
  Homepage for Brewer's Workshop ("Robert Marshall")
  Actual BOD/TSS from Brewery (Joe Rolfe)
  More Homebrew Favorites ("Karl F. Lutzen")
  RE: Sankey Kegs for Fermenting (smucker at use.usit.net (David and Carol Smucker))
  Update (RANDY ERICKSON)
  Kosher Beer and Heavy Honey ("Phillip J. Birmingham")
  London pub web site, summary (DEBOLT BRUCE)
  Methanol (NOT AGAIN) (aesoph at ncemt1.ctc.com (Aesoph, Michael))
  re: Bottling Buckets ("Gregg A. Howard")
  Re: legality question (Rob Moline)
  All Grain Weizen (WalkerMik at aol.com)
  Latino Beer Recipe? (Kallen Jenne)
  The yeast slurry that ate New York ("J.A. Cadieux")

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ARCHIVES:
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----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Robert Marshall" <robertjm at hooked.net>
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 00:03:42 +0000
Subject: Homepage for Brewer's Workshop

A few issues ago someone asked about a place where they could 
download a demo of Brewer's Workshop.

I ran into their webpage tonight while surfing the Net. Its:

http://www.slonet.org/~tnelson/

Sure looks like a great program!! (I have no financial interest, 
thanks for asking;)  )

Later,


Later,

Robert Marshall
robertjm at hooked.net

homepage: http://www.hooked.net/users/robertjm
- ----------------------------------------------
"In Belgium, the magistrate has the dignity
of a prince, but by Bacchus, it is true
that the brewer is king."

          Emile Verhaeren (1855-1916)
          Flemish writer
- ------------------------------------------------

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From: Joe Rolfe <onbc at shore.net>
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 09:27:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Actual BOD/TSS from Brewery

 this is an actual reading from a qualified lab involved with
testing effluents/water etc.

these samples were transported within the hold time required.

fermenter
TSS	30000 mg/L
BOD 70000 mg/L

Kettle Bottom
TSS 2000 mg/L
BOD 60000 mg/L

these samples were raw (undiluted).  the local sewer pretreatment person
can get you a dilution chart, and should have max numbers for the total
pounds of (BOD/TSS) per day.  i do not have readily available the formula
to go from mg/L and flow to get pound per day.  but i do remember the
max flow but my limits are 31#BOD 25#TSS which limited me to 50 gallons
or raw undiluted effluent.  one of these (according to the sewer dept)
is not a linear dilution (1L water in 1L effluent wont cut the level in half)
anyone have the formula for the dilutions - i'd be interested.?
i'd also be interested in seeing if anyone else has had lab work done on the
streams (diluted or otherwise)

one stream i did not get was the bottom of the lauter - which i will assume to
be as loaded as the kettle bottoms. other streams of interest would be
bottle/kegs washing, or as some breweries do  - spent grains to sewer - which
is nuts but some do it.

flow rates (all water used) from most  breweries is 3 to 10 bbls water per
bbl of product. 

joe


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From: "Karl F. Lutzen" <lutzen at alpha.rollanet.org>
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 09:55:36 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: More Homebrew Favorites

First off a big thank you to all who have contributed recipes toward our
sequel to "Homebrew Favorites".  The response has been very good, with 
many GREAT recipes sent in and Mark Stevens and I really appreciate your 
efforts.

The important news is that Mark and I have extended the deadline for 
recipe contribution.  The new deadline is July 15, 1996 to get your 
recipe into the next volume of "Homebrew Favorites".  We will gladly 
accept recipes at any time after that, but they will be held until the 
next volume release. 

To make things easier, visit our Web site to get submission information. 
The address is:

	http://alpha.rollanet.org/~lutzen

>From here you will be able to download printer forms, and even submit 
recipes through the Web (provided your browser supports forms)!  

Any specific queries, as well as recipes, can be directed to:

	lutzen at alpha.rollanet.org

We will even give you a big "Thank You" for your recipes. All 
contributors who submit recipes that end up in the sequel to "Homebrew 
Favorites", will receive a copy of the finished product.  Now how can 
you beat that?

So, tell your friends, supply shops, club members and even strangers in 
the street of the news, and we'll be waiting to hear from all of you.


Karl Lutzen.


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From: smucker at use.usit.net (David and Carol Smucker)
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 19:33:57 -0400
Subject: RE: Sankey Kegs for Fermenting

In HBD #2054  Kallen Jenne ask about cleaning Sankey kegs that have been 
used for fermenting.
 
>I brew larger 10-15 gal batches and have, in the past, used old 
>Sankey-styled (straight-sided) kegs with a #2 stopper and a fermentation 
>lock - very successfully.  My method of sterilizing thus far has been 
>bleach.  My last batch went awry and I ended up dumping 15 gallons of a 
>Foster's clone.  The problem, according to my hb supply person probably 
>lies in not being able to adequately remove the beerstones on the inside 
>of the keg.  Now I am looking at a two step cleaning/sterilizing 
>process:  first, a hot lie solution to melt away any sediment; and then 
>a warm TSP soak, followed by vigorous rinse.

I have been using Sankey kegs as my fermenter for about 3 years now and 
both like them very much and have never had a sanitation problem with 
them.  The key is getting them very clean.  One nice thing about a 
stainless Sankey keg is that using very hot cleaning solution is never a 
problem as with glass.

To clean I use a hot (almost boiling) NaOH (lye) solution. BUT YOU MUST BE
VERY CAREFUL WITH THIS STUFF -- IT CAN CAUSE VERY BAD BURNS AND ABOVE ALL 
YOUR DON'T WANT TO GET ANY ANYWHERE NEAR YOU EYES.

One of the dangerous things about NaOH is that it generates a great deal 
of heat when added to water.  Because of this don't add it to hot water 
near the boiling point or you will get a rather violent reaction which 
can cause it to boil over or splash out at you.  Start with room 
temperature to 50 C temperature water and add about 1/2 cup of NaOH for 10 
or 12 gallons of water.  I heat  right in my boiling keg. (A converted 
Sankey keg.)  I then transfer via gravity flow into my keg needing 
cleaning and then top up with hot water.  

I plug the opening with a 2 inch expanding plumbing pipe plug and invert 
the keg for 24 hours.  The hot NaOH will "eat" any organic remaining from
the fermentation.  (To be effective NaOH has to be hot -- I understand 
above about 75 C  -- I shoot for about 90 C.)

This get the keg clean of organics but may not clean all deposits.  I 
follow the NaOH with a rinse and then with about pH 4 to 5  HCl acid 
rinse.

I cap the clean keg with aluminum foil and put away until the next use.

AT THAT TIME I PUT 4 TO 5 GALLONS OF BOILING WATER IN THE KEG AND ROLL IT 
AROUND AND THEN DRAIN.  It is then ready for use.

One other key thing is knowing that you got your keg really clean.  To do 
this I use a small inspection mirror (from an auto parts store) that is a 
little bigger than a dentists mirror but goes in the 2 inch opening 
easily.  To have enough good light to see by I hang a auto tail light bulb 
from a pair of wires and light up the inside of my kegs.  Works great.

One last thing.  Don't use bleach on stainless. Can cause holes in you keg 
under some conditions.

Hope this helps

Dave Smucker




David E. Smucker, Mech. Engr.,  Carol J. Smucker, Nursing 
Knoxville, Tennessee, USA   <smucker at use.usit.net>


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From: RANDY ERICKSON <RANDYE at mid.org>
Date: 
Subject: Update

The other day I reminisced about some of the old timers in this forum that
we don't hear from so much any more.

The Ulick Stafford posts two days in a row -- not exactly missing, huh?

Spencer Thomas assures me he's still kicking, just busier.  

And Micah continues to make a success of Murphy's Creek Brewing in
my home town!  How come when I lived there the only things open after
the general store closed at 8:00 were the redneck bar and the cowboy
bar?  Now there's B&B's, restaurants, a pub, and at least 3
microbreweries within 10 miles!  What's next, a stoplight?

Randy Erickson
Modesto Irrigation District
Modesto, California
************************************************************
Beer is a little bit like sex in that when it's good,
it's REALLY good, but when it's bad, 
it's STILL pretty good -- Dave Hinkle



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From: "Phillip J. Birmingham" <phillip at mcs.com>
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 13:29:49 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Kosher Beer and Heavy Honey

	Daniel Goodale asks about kosher beer:

> 	I have a Jewish friend for whom I would
> like to brew some Kosher beer.  I am woefully
> ignorant of Jewish dietary laws.

	You might, if you haven't already, ask your friend if a look
around the brewery and at your ingredients will be enough.  Rabbinical 
supervision basically exists as a proxy for just this process, allowing 
Jews to know that their food is being handled properly in situations 
where they cannot themselves know precisely what is being done to it.

	Afraid I can't help you with the other stuff, but maybe I've 
saved you some effort.

> 7.  Is this a bridge too far for the ordinary home
> brewer?

	Is *any* bridge too far?

	Ted Davidson asks about honey:

>Subject: Weight of Honey
 
>I have a honey porter recipe that calls for 3lbs of honey.  The place I 
>called for honey prices only sells by the pint or quart.  Does anybody know 
>the weight of honey?

	I don't, save to say it's probably greater than that of water.  
Buy three pints; it should be enough.

- --
 Phillip J. Birmingham    
 phillip at mcs.com "Tampering in God's Domain since 1965!"   TMA#7
 http://www.mcs.com/~phillip/home.html


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From: DEBOLT BRUCE <bdebolt at dow.com>
Date: Fri, 31 May 96 15:04:55 -0400
Subject: London pub web site, summary

I would like to thank those who replied to my request for London pub info. 
There were too many replies to send thank you notes to all.  Unfortunately
I'm not going, this was for a friend, but I'm saving the posts for future
reference.  Dave Harsh sent me the London pub summary from the TRASH
homepage (but the web address wasn't noted).  I'd recommend that homepage
if you are interested in the details. 

Bruce DeBolt
bdebolt at dow.com





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From: aesoph at ncemt1.ctc.com (Aesoph, Michael)
Date: 31 May 96 15:02:39 EDT
Subject: Methanol (NOT AGAIN)

Dear Collective:

	I humbly apologize for bringing up the dumb issue of methanol production 
in home brew.  We all know better around here.  However, I have had some 
of my beverages turned down by the uninitiated because of the methanol 
myth.  They are afraid that my beverage will cause blindness, death, etc. 
 I would like to reduce their fears by pointing to a credible reference 
that says otherwise.  Could someone out there please provide either a 
definitive reference or a reasonable (technical) explanation as to why 
"HOME BREW CAN'T HURT YOU"?  Taken in context of course.



==================================================

        Michael D. Aesoph                Associate Engineer

==================================================


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From: "Gregg A. Howard" <102012.3350 at CompuServe.COM>
Date: 31 May 96 15:48:03 EDT
Subject: re: Bottling Buckets

   In the interest of conserving bandwidth, I will not post my stunningly
brilliant, unsurpassedly simple, very likely unique priming and bottling
technique, but anyone interested can send me an email with the subject line
"send bottling text" and receive the outline in return.  All horse-s**t aside,
it does work quite well, eliminates hose-sucking and minimizes aeration and
exposure to possible contaminants.

Gregg,

Gregg A. Howard    Denver, Co.    102012.3350 at compuserve.com


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From: Rob Moline <brewer at kansas.net>
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 23:42:07 -0500
Subject: Re: legality question

>From: Gregory King <GKING at ARSERRC.Gov>
>Subject: legality question

>The owner of a small restaurant/pub wants to enter into an arrangement
>with me where he sells my homebrew, offering it as a house brand.
>
>Do any of you know if/how this can be done legally?  (the restaurant
is,
>in Pennsylvania if that matters)

Sure, it can be done legally! First, you have to go through BATF, State
of
Pennsylvania, City and County for necessary permits, licenses,
approvals, etc.
Be prepared to spend thousands of dollars, and lots of time. Then you
may
need to get a distributor involved. Is your house zoned for this
commercial
activity?
What about insurance...will your existing house policy cover this VERY
large
liability? Probably not. What about security. The BATF, etc, are VERY
interested in knowing that adequate measures are  available to ensure
the
safety of the tax producing product, i.e., that no one can steal the
beer.
And on and on...

The point is that you are able to do this, depending most heavily on
whether
or not you are wealthy enough to spend thousands to get pennies in
profit. I
think you will find it's not worth it, unless you have more of a market
than
one restaurant, or want to set up a deal with him to install a brewery
in
his place, give up your day job and run it. The quantities involved are
just
too small to make you much of a return on a typical 5 gallon batch.
But, it
has been done before! 


>From: Dave Mercer <dmercer at path.org>
>Subject: Bottling buckets (why?), 
 Did I independently arrive at a no-brainer that everyone else
>has known for years? 

Yes!

>
>From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>

>I love you guys.  No, I mean it.  I really love you guys.

SORRY, Russell, but you can't have my Little Apple beer! But I will
give you
all the BUD Light you want!


>From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro)
>Subject: RE:Sparge water temp
>
>     In HBD #2046 Dave Beedle notes that the temperature in the lauter
tun is 
>quite a bit lower than the sparge water. I too, have wondered about
this.      
>Since I get good yields and the beer tastes good, I've not really
worried      
>     about it.
>     I have been toying with the idea of heating the sparge water
enough to 
>     maintain the bed temperature at 165F.  I've not tried it though,
because 
>     I'm afraid of getting the grains too hot and washing unconverted
starch 
>     (damn heathens!) into the kettle.  I'm also unsure of what
benefit there 
>     would be.  Perhaps sparging would be more efficient.  I don't
know.  
>Anybody out there know what the pro's do? I never thought to ask
during a      
>     brewery tour.  Next time I will.
>     

It would make for an interesting experiment, with temp probes
distributed
through out the mash. But I think that what you are proposing would
heat (at
least the top of the mash) higher than you would like, with resultant
extraction of tannins, etc.
At LABCO, I heat the sparge h2o to 178 F and store it in a separate
holding
tank while mashing. The sparge h2o temp is 176 or so by the time
sparging
commences. I'll do some sequential temp checks on tomorrows batch, but
I'm
quite sure that the mash temp, as indicated by grant temp, doesnt get
into
the 165 range until quite a bit into the sparge.

>From: Kallen Jenne <tirado at sprynet.com>
>Subject: Sankey Kegs for Fermenting
>Question 1:
>I understand that commercial brewers use steam to clean these filthy 
>things out, but any practical ideas for a homebrewer?  Is my 
>cleaning/sterilization method worth a go or destined to fail due to my 
>inexperience in this area?

Commercial brewers use caustic solutions to clean and h2o to rinse.
Some
countries require a final steam blast for sanitization, the US does
not.
Most keg washers made in Europe have this steam feature. But a beer keg
is
just like any other stainless vessel in a brewery. They need, every so
often, an acid bath, in addition to the caustic bath to keep beerstone
at
bay. Most brewers I talk with use an acid every 4 or 5 cleaning cycles
on
stainless.

 Rob Moline
Little Apple Brewing Company
Manhattan, Kansas

"The more I know about beer, the more I realise I need to know more
about beer!"


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From: WalkerMik at aol.com
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 20:31:18 -0400
Subject: All Grain Weizen

Greetings from a long time lurker and first time poster!  The decoction
mashing thead of the last few days has captured my interest.

I plan to brew an all grain recipe from Eric Warner's German Wheat Beer book,
and have a few questions.  I'm trying to decide if the decoction mash (my
first) would be worth the extra time and effort, or if I should just go with
an infusion mash due to the rising temp here in AZ (105 - 110 F by Monday).
 An 8 hour brewing session sounds like a long day in the heat to me!

If I decided to do an infusion mash, what type of mash schedule should I
follow?  Should I follow the decoction procedure, omitting the decoction?

Can anybody convince me one way or the other?

Any recommendations would be appreciated!

Mike Walker
Mesa, AZ

Does a decoction mashing FAQ exist?

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From: Kallen Jenne <tirado at sprynet.com>
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 18:48:08 -0700
Subject: Latino Beer Recipe?

I'm looking for an all-grain latin beer recipe (not dark beer).  I seem 
to recall a Corona knock-off circulating about a year or so ago, but 
can't find it now.  I've seen the Dos Equis recipe on Cat's Meow 3, but 
I'm not really looking for that heavy of a beer.  Really looking for a 
Tecate/Corona/Bohemia (Brazil)/Antartica (Brazil) type of beer.  Any 
recipes would be helpful.

Thanks Much

Kallen Jenne
tirado at sprynet.com

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From: "J.A. Cadieux" <s710724 at aix2.uottawa.ca>
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 21:53:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: The yeast slurry that ate New York

I recently brewed an IPA, which had a fairly high OG (~1.065).  I pitched
a rehydrated 14g pack (I know, I should have started culturing again, 
but I just started brewing again after a 2 yr. hiatus) of dry Whitbread Ale
yeast.

After about 8 hours, fermentation began in earnest.  Over the next 36 
hours, I noticed the most violent fermentation I had ever seen, then the 
fermentation went dead at about 1.034 and remained there for the next 
five days.

Tonight, I decided to rack the beer in a hope that it would begin 
fermenting again after a little agitation and coaxing.  However, when I 
was racking, I found at the bottom of the fermenter the largest yeast 
slurry (i.e. dregs) I had ever seen!  It was over 1" deep, and I 
estimated that this monster slurry cost me 2 or 3 quarts of beer.  :(

I was wondering if anyone has had similar experiences (low attenuation 
after an initial violent primary fermentation, very large volume of 
slurry) with dry Whitbread Ale yeast. 

Also, what would the recommended course of action be if the racking still 
fails to induce a revival in the fermentation?  I was thinking of 
pitching a second time with a more attenuative yeast, but I have my 
reservations about this...

Thanks,

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jay A. Cadieux                     "Out of the crooked timber of humanity,
Univ. of Ottawa (Hon. Chem.)        no straight thing can ever by made." 
s710724 at aix2.uottawa.ca                          -Immanuel Kant              
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------


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