---

   FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
        Shawn Steele, Digest Janitor
        Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!

Contents:
  World Beer Cup! (Rob Moline)
  World Beer Cup! (Rob Moline)
  New Brewing Lager Beer (BOBKATPOND at aol.com)
  Re: Wort Chilling (Woody Weaver)
  Results of Oxynator request ("Robert Marshall")
  "stuck" fermentations ("David R. Burley")
  Re: Alternate Bittering Sources - gauging bitterness (Terry Smith)
  1996 World Beer Cup Trip Report (John Adams)
  Cool Tap Handles Revisited (ritchie at wnstar.com (Clark D. Ritchie))
  Wheat/Rye Beer w/ Oat Hulls (ritchie at wnstar.com (Clark D. Ritchie))
  On-line References (Kerry Drake)
  Beer in Ireland (afmccaul at rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (Tony McCauley))
  Hot-Water RIMS (KennyEddy at aol.com)
  blueberry porter ("Susan M. Muzik")
  re:  firkin (Kevin Khayat)
  Red Brick Brewery (CPT Paul Fischer)
  Correspondence Brewing Courses (CPT Paul Fischer)
  IBU's / Partial Mash (h.smith at e-mail.com)
  Re: only anchor ("Dave Higdon")
  Nobel Prizes ("Allan Rubinoff")
  Warm Lager Fermentation (r-brodeur at ds.mc.ti.com (Russ Brodeur))
  Spices (Michael Newman)
  Fuller yeast (Bill Giffin)
  Aeration (Joseph.Fleming at gsa.gov)
  Re: esters ("Tracy Aquilla")
  [none] (bhanson-mtc at rica.net (Ben Hanson))

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rob Moline <brewer at kansas.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 20:19:50 -0500
Subject: World Beer Cup!

YAHOO!!

Rob (Jethro Gump) Moline
Little Apple Brewing Company
Manhattan, Kansas

"The more I know about beer, the more I realize I need to know more about 
beer!"


Return to table of contents


From: Rob Moline <brewer at kansas.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 20:19:50 -0500
Subject: World Beer Cup!

YAHOO!!

Rob (Jethro Gump) Moline
Little Apple Brewing Company
Manhattan, Kansas

"The more I know about beer, the more I realize I need to know more about 
beer!"


Return to table of contents


From: BOBKATPOND at aol.com
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 09:22:13 -0400
Subject: New Brewing Lager Beer

Tracy responce to:
>even Greg Noonan in New Brewing Lager Beer spouts the conventional wisdom:
>lacking oxygen..fusel alcohols... to esters
was:
>Greg's book was written over 10 years ago; he's probably learned a few new
things >since then. I discussed this with him just last month;

Since you are such a close friend of Greg's, I am surprised that he hasn't
told you about his new book.  It is the lastest brewing book out copyright
1996. The above comment is on page 176. However, I think the book is
excellent overall.

Bob Morris

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From: Woody Weaver <woody at altair.stmarys-ca.edu>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 96 10:42 PDT
Subject: Re: Wort Chilling

Lou (lheavner at tcmail.frco.com), in response to an article by
Aaron Sepanski <sepanska at it.uwp.edu>

     It takes me about 30 - 45 minutes to cool 3 gal in my kettle to 80F -
     90F which I add to 60F tap water (added with the sink sprayer to
     increase aeration) and pitch.

There is a risk here; 60F tap water is unlikely to be sterile.  Let me
offer an alternative: since you are buying ice anyways, add it to the
hot wort instead of to the bath.  "Party ice" seems to be sterile: I
suspect that liabilities would require it.

However, I never remember to get commercial ice.  My solution is to
cool the hot wort in its boiling pot by partial immersion in a plastic
trash can, changing the water twice in that 45 mins.  It brings it
down to pitching temp without ice.  I boil down to about 13 liters of
wort, so I typically boil and reserve about eight liters of water into
sterilized containers to top off my wort to 20 liters.  For aeration,
I vigoursly pour the cold wort through a strainer, and then whisk with
a sterilized kitchen whisk until I have a nice layer of foam.

- --woody

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From: "Robert Marshall" <robertjm at hooked.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 10:55:24 +0000
Subject: Results of Oxynator request

Just a short note to let you know that I received about 5 responses
to my question about the Oxynator, from Liquid Bread.

All of them were in favor of its use.

I now have one sitting about two feet from this keyboard just waiting
for my barlywine recipe to be finished!!


Later,

Robert Marshall
robertjm at hooked.net

homepage: http://www.hooked.net/users/robertjm
- ----------------------------------------------
"In Belgium, the magistrate has the dignity
of a prince, but by Bacchus, it is true
that the brewer is king."

          Emile Verhaeren (1855-1916)
          Flemish writer
- ------------------------------------------------

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From: "David R. Burley" <103164.3202 at CompuServe.COM>
Date: 16 Jun 96 17:30:28 EDT
Subject: "stuck" fermentations

Brewsters:

Reading Domenick Venezia's trials (and tribulations) on using oxidation to try
get to lower FG is in line with some other recent comments I have read here 
from
brewers who are unhappy with high FG brews. In some cases it may simply be 
that
they started with a high OG wort and if this were diluted to the  1.05 region,
would deliver a "normal" FG in the 1.01 range.

However, Domenick and some of  the other brewers are probably experiencing
either a poorly attentative yeast - a genetic trait, in most cases, and
unchangeable OR most likely, in the case of all grain brews, they are holding 
at
a high a temperature ( say 158-160)  for too SHORT a time during the
saccarification stage.

Remember that the higher the temperature, the faster the enzymes degrade.  The
lower the concentration of enzymes, ergo ,the slower the conversion of starch 
to
sugar. SO, at the high end ( 155-158) of the saccarification region ( 145-160
F), even though the rate of saccrification (at a constant enzyme 
concentration),
is higher, the  stability of the enzyme is lower and is disappearing faster.
This leads to a lower enzyme concentration, and depending on the ratio of 
water
to grist in the mash, could lead to a high level of unfermentables. The
solution? Extend the saccharification time to get complete conversion. This 
will
lower the unfermentables and increase the fermentables.     You could also try
using a lower ratio of water to grist. This will increase the concentration of
the enzymes and speed up the conversion.  I am skeptical, in the absence of
data, that enzymes are more stable at higher concentrations, as some of the
texts and HB books would have us believe. I am open to proof on the subject.

When I am worried about fermentable sugar content at the end of a 
fermentation,
I use Clinitest ( available at the drug store in the diabetics section) and 
run
a test for sugar content. For the chemists among us, this a commercial form of
Fehling's or Benedict's test and reduces sugars, aldoses and ketoses but not
ketones, using an alkaline solution of cupric ion. It comes as little
alka-seltzer like pills in a bottle in a plastic box that doubles as a testube 

holder. The testube, eyedropper and plastic box are supplied with the KIT form 

( about $6 for maybe fifty tests). Comparison with the supplied color chart
gives you the sugar content instantly.  It is quantitative. The test is cheap,
simple and foolproof and it removes all the worry that using a hydrometer to
detect end of fermentation can cause. The hydrometer is not a reliable tool 
for
this purpose, as you know, since you cannot detect the difference between a
stuck fermentation and a high FG.  Less that 1/4% sugar is OK to prime and
bottle.

Personally, I like malty brews with FGs in the upper teens and lower twenties.
This allows me to put in plenty of hops to counterbalance - the result- a very 

flavorful brew.

- ----------------------------

HELP!

The other night I went to a play and during intermission I temporarily set my
beer down on a glass case next to a CD display containing a CD with a plaid
cover  titled something like "Forever PLAID".   Was my beer ruined? Should I
have thrown it out?

Keep on brewin'

Dave Burley


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From: Terry Smith <tsmith at tiac.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 17:47:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Alternate Bittering Sources - gauging bitterness

  It is difficult to say that two dissimilar substances are equally bitter,
given other flavor elements.  A (possibly) better technique is that used for
the standard measure for pepper hotness.  Make a measured solution of each
substance  and dilute until the bitterness is just noticable (compared
against a drink of clear water), measuring the dilution.

 The measurement of relative dilution will probably give you a dependable
measure of the relative bitterness.  (I recall that this works better
because of deep properties of the human perception system that I don't fully
recall.)


Return to table of contents


From: John Adams <jadams at pipeline.cnd.hp.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 20:22:01 -0600
Subject: 1996 World Beer Cup Trip Report

                          1996 World Beer Cup

   The first every World Beer Cup was held in Vail Colorado from Wednesday
   June 12 to Saturday June 15 at Vail's luxurious Sonnenalp Resort.  Over
   570 beers from 27 countries vied for awards in 61 categories.  The World
   Beer Cup, unlike the GABF, included a beer judging, a private tasting,
   and an awards ceremony.

   I was one of six Table Captain's serving 29 judges.  The Table Captains
   and Stewards are in charge of the beers and attending to the judges
   during the tasting.  The perks are many but the bigest thrill is sampling
   excellent beers and getting to know beers from around the world, many of
   which are not available or very hard to find in the United States.

   Wednesday evening kicked-off with a judges orientation followed by a
   reception.  During this time I met some new judges and conversed with
   some I've had the pleasure to work with in past GABF judging sessions.

   During Thursday and Friday the judging took place.  I captained some
   excellent categories including: Bohemian Pilseners, Vienna Lagers,
   Scottish Ales, German Browns/Dusseldorf Altbiers, Belgian Abbeys, German
   Pilseners, German Weizenbock/Weissbocks, American Wheats, and European
   Dark Lagers.

   During the judging I had the honor of working with: Fal Allen, Paul Bayley,
   Fred Eckhardt, John Harris, Grant Johnson, Finn Knudsen, Gary Luther,
   David Sipes, and Hugh Smith.  It was fantastic observing Hugh Smith and
   Fred Eckhardt 'combat' over differing opinions.  Fal Allen, Gary Luther,
   and John Harris discussed how evaporation rates effect quality.  I also
   shared lunch with Fred Eckhardt and Paul Bayley and discussed liquor laws,
   prohibation, mega-swill, and Jim Cooks marketing skills.

   In the evenings we frequented Vail's Hubcap Brewery, drank Vail Pale Ale,
   single malt scotch, ate (less-than) Thermonuclear buffalo wings, and
   taunted our waitress, Nina, mercilessly.  Saturday afternoon was the
   private tasting and awards ceremony.  Brewers were on hand to receive
   their awards, the atmosphere was relaxed, the conversation entertaining,
   the food was fantastic, and the beer was even better (all 570+ on hand).

   One of the many perks of being a volunteer was getting the extra beer
   from the judging sessions.  I was very fortunate to get 8 gold, 4 silver,
   and 5 bronze cup winners in my take home selection.  I am very much
   looking forward to the second World Brewers Cup in 1998 to be held in
   Barcelona Spain!

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From: ritchie at wnstar.com (Clark D. Ritchie)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 19:26:22 -0700
Subject: Cool Tap Handles Revisited

A few months ago I posted a note searching for a supplier of non-standard
tap handles.  Well, I am proud to announce that my search finally yielded a
source that recently provided me with a tap handle of superlative quality.

I ended up doing business with William Winter of Wild Willy's Wood Works
(contact information below).  William made for me a tap handle out of
mahogany that is a true piece of art.  About 10" in length, the handle has
curves, balls and all sorts of beautiful lathe-trickery.  The handle also
has a wonderful varnish not to mention the correct hardware to attach it to
a standard tap faucet.  Numerous other woods are also available.

I paid $30 for mine.

William can be contacted at:

Wild Willy=92s Wood Words
1507 Leister Drive
Silver Spring, MD  20904
VOICE: (301) 384-0456
FAX: (202) 806-6065
EMAIL: wildwillyp at aol.com

I highly recommend his workmanship if anyone else is looking for attractive
tap handles to add to their setups... CDR

PS - Standard disclaimer applies (I have no affiliation, etc. =96 just a=
 happy
customer).
<--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><-->
                    Clark D. Ritchie, ritchie at wnstar.com
               World Wide Web: http://www.wnstar.com/ritchie/


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From: ritchie at wnstar.com (Clark D. Ritchie)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 19:32:25 -0700
Subject: Wheat/Rye Beer w/ Oat Hulls

Has anyone out there made an all-grain wheat/rye beer using oat hulls (or
something else to ward off total gelatinization)?  The process intrigues me.
However the last stuck mash that I experienced (on a ~30% rye recipe) was
enough to send me to the loony bin (which is probably where I belong to
begin with).  Info on the proper use of oat hulls would be appreciated.
TIA... CDR
<--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><-->
                    Clark D. Ritchie, ritchie at wnstar.com
               World Wide Web: http://www.wnstar.com/ritchie/

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From: Kerry Drake <drakes at oklahoma.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 22:05:40 -0500
Subject: On-line References

If any one knows of brewing reference material on-line please let me know.
I'm not looking for The Brewery or similar sites (I've already found most of
them), but some of the more complex texts mentioned here from time to time.
E-mail or post is fine.  Thanks
Kerry Drake

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From: afmccaul at rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (Tony McCauley)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 22:09:30 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Beer in Ireland

I've got family headed to Ireland next week.  The offer has been made, so I
want to take advantage of it.  I'm looking for bottled or canned beer to ask
to be brought home for me.

Private responses are great.

Thanks for the help.

                        Tony McCauley

                        afmccaul at rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu

..

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From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 00:17:01 -0400
Subject: Hot-Water RIMS

I want to first thank Charlie Scandrett for tossing out his studied analysis
of the Hot Water RIMS heater idea that I adapted from Kevin McEnhill's
orignal post a couple of HBD's ago.  The general thought was that the idea is
basiclaly sound and the heat exchanger is adequately efficient.  I challenged
Charlie on the statement he made about "3 mm " wall thickness; copper tubing
wall thickness is more on the order of 1 mm.  But as Charlie then pointed
out, it's not the thickness so much as what happens at the *surface* that
governs heat conduction.  Toss in a correction too that the heat exchanger
tube is more like 280 mm (11"+) than 350, but this has little real impact on
the final verdict.

Another point Charlie made which is crucial to working with the "ideal"
formulae he presents is that you'll always have about a 4C difference between
your bath and the wort outflow, just because heat transfer relies on
temperature *difference* and it slows drastically at that low of a dT.  But
also note that Charlie's figures lead to a ~6C dT; add a simple agitator to
bring the heat transfer closer to the ideal and you're pushing the "as good
as it gets" (AGAIG) level of performance.

Note that the element in an electric bucket puts out a *lot* of heat energy
(at least my 4500W unit does!) -- just the convection from such a setup would
assist in reducing boundary effects.  But a simple stirrer -- a cheap
elelctric motor mounted to the bucket lid with a paddle or (better) and auger
- -- would make for a practically "perfect" system, which would approach the
AGAIG performance.

Note that the 1C/min rate is faster than many reported rise rates I've seen
quoted for many RIMS systems (0.5C to 0.8C), although these may be more
typical for 10-gal systems than 5 as Charlie was working with.

I like the idea of adding sight glasses to gauge compaction, which remonded
me of something I thought of but have yet to try.  I've seen many good
designs for homemade sight glasses but they typically involve cutting a
"window" in a pipe, and inserting a vinyl tube.  Why not use a spring as the
support -- easy to see through (compression spring, not extension!) and can
be mounted by capturing a coil under a screwhead or washer.

Finally, seeing as there is a fair difference between the bath and the wort
temperatures, the controller sensor might be better placed in the *wort
outflow* (sticking into the tube / pipe at the "out" end).  Charlie also
suggests a 90-degree elbow just before the inlet to enhance turbulence (and
thus efficiency).

Ken Schwartz
KennyEddy at aol.com
http://users.aol.com/kennyeddy

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From: "Susan M. Muzik" <sumuzik at teleport.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 21:36:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: blueberry porter

Does anyone have a recipe for a blueberry porter?  I'm most interested in
using a frozen fruit concentrate.  Any clues?

Thanks in advance,

p-town brew sisters

sumuzik at teleport.COM  Public Access User -- Not affiliated with Teleport
Public Access UNIX and Internet at (503) 220-1016 (2400-28800, N81)


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From: Kevin Khayat <100607.2563 at CompuServe.COM>
Date: 17 Jun 96 03:52:59 EDT
Subject: re:  firkin

Clark Ritchie asked what a firkin was.  In Imperial measures, a firkin is a
quarter barrel or 9 imperial gallons (a barrel not uncoincidentally being 36
imperial gallons).  Six firkins is a hogshead (54 imperial gallons).  It is
because of these differences, and brewers' varying preferences, that the term
'cask-conditioned' is more accurate than 'barrel-conditioned' since a barrel 
is
a specific volume and a cask isn't.

Of course, the main thing is that they get empty!

Cheers,
Kevin Khayat


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From: CPT Paul Fischer <fischerp at emh1.gordon.army.mil>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 07:32:25 -0700
Subject: Red Brick Brewery

I may be shooting myself in the foot (or the mouth), but I recently
purchased a six pack of Red Brick Ale, from the Red Brick Brewery in
Atlanta, GA..  I must say, if you can find this beer, buy it...it is
probably the best micro-brewery beer that I have ever tasted in bottle
form!  Maybe my tastes are skewed, but I loved it....and I would be be
greatly appreciative of anyone that knows how to brew a close copy to it.
I have been brewing for over a year and have tasted many a great
beer..Red Brick ranks right up there.  Personal e-mails would be fine.	

 -Paul

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From: CPT Paul Fischer <fischerp at emh1.gordon.army.mil>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 07:52:41 -0700
Subject: Correspondence Brewing Courses

Awhile back I had contacted several brewing education "colleges" in
search of some correspondence courses that I could take in lieu of going
to California, Chicago, etc. (I live in Augusta, Georgia and am in the
military).  At the time, Feb or March 96, I was told by (I think) the
Siebel Insitute of Brewing that they would be offering some
correspondence course in pursuit of a brewing degree in the 96-97' school
year.  Does anyone know of some courses I could take and eventually do a
"lab" somewhere for a few days and be awarded a brewing degree???

 -Paul

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From: h.smith at e-mail.com
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:31:42 EDT
Subject: IBU's / Partial Mash

All,
Sent a question out about my first partial mash last week and didn't get any
response. I'd like to repeat and add a follow-up...My usual ale (1 can 
extract,
3# DME, and 1.5-2# honey) gives me gravities of 1.052-1.055 consistently.
This time I substituted 3# English Pale Malt for one # of DME and one # of
honey. 'Mashed' and 'sparged' using the Dippety Doo method, but did it as
efficiently as possible. I ended up at a gravity of 1.062. Does the malt sub
explain this difference? I pretty much expected it to be lower than usual due
to poor extraction with this method....
And now my ferment is done (pitched with 3/4 litre of starter) and is at
a whopping 1.026! Any comments?

Second Q: when calculating IBU's, how do you weigh the different alpha acid
percentages versus the time in boil and amount added? For example, if I
add a 7% hop for 60 min., a 4.5% for 30 min., and a 4% finish, what would my 
AA
% be that I use for the IBU calculation? Do you simply average the 3
percentages if you use 1 oz. of each?

Thanks for any help....
Howard


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From: "Dave Higdon" <DAVEH at qesrv1.bwi.wec.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:54:50 EST
Subject: Re: only anchor

Not in america because I think anchor has a patent on the yeast since
they developed it.

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From: "Allan Rubinoff" <allan_rubinoff at mathworks.com>
Date: 17 Jun 1996 09:41:26 -0400
Subject: Nobel Prizes

In HBD #2071, TMCASTLE at am.pnu.com writes:

>   (3)  Did you know that one of Einstein's three Nobel Prizes was for
>   developing the mathematics of Brownian Motion?  I don't remmber the
>   other two (I think one was the photoelectric effect) but NONE of
>   them were for his theories of special or general relativity (his
>   calling card).

Einstein did not win three Nobel Prizes; he won one, for his work on the
photoelectric effect.  It is true that he did not win a Nobel Prize for
special or general relativity.

I realize this isn't exactly beer related, but I really hate seeing
misinformation being spread in a public forum.

Allan Rubinoff
rubinoff at mathworks.com


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From: r-brodeur at ds.mc.ti.com (Russ Brodeur)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 09:45:10 -0400
Subject: Warm Lager Fermentation

I would like to stimulate some discussion of the May/June Brewing Techniques
article regarding "warm" lager fermentation (Sorry, but I don't have the
exact title and author's name with me).  I found this article quite
intriguing.  First, let me briefly describe the process:

The bitter wort is cooled to ~40 F and racked off the trub.  At this point a
"large" quantity of lager yeast is pitched from an active starter.  (I think
the pitching rate is probably key for this technique)  The fermentor is
allowed to gradually warm to ~ 60 F over several days by insulating and/or
relying on the thermal mass of the beer to slow warming.  The remaining
sequence is pretty much the same as for ale brewing.

I feel this technique may indeed have some merit for the HB'er.  While I am
certainly no expert on yeast metabolism, what I have gained from the
collective is that most of the off-flavors attributable to "warm"
fermentation arise during the yeast's "growth" phase.  In lager fermentation
these off flavors (diacetyl, esters etc.) can be minimized by adequate
pitching rates, low temperatures (45-50 F) and (no, I won't touch the
aeration/ester thread!).

Since in this fermentation technique the growth phase is conducted at low
temperatures, production of diacetyl and esters should be minimized and
fermentation will procede rapidly as the beer warms over the next several 
days.

What do you think??

TTFN  --<- at 

Russ Brodeur  (r-brodeur at ds.mc.ti.com)
Franklin, MA


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From: Michael Newman <100711.2111 at CompuServe.COM>
Date: 17 Jun 96 10:26:03 EDT
Subject: Spices

Help!

I am trying to recreate a late 18th century British recipe for Reading Beer. 
It
is spiced with coriander, Indian bark, and grains of paradise.

What are Indian bark (cinnamon/cassia?) and grains of paradise (these come 
from
the West Indies I think). Grains of paradise are used in some London gins.

Any and all help accepted!

MICHAEL NEWMAN


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From: Bill Giffin <billg at maine.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:52:58 -0500
Subject: Fuller yeast

Good morning,

Domenick Venezia in HBD 2072 said:
>In my quest for a perfect Fuller's ESB clone I decided to try do
>everything I could to get my bootleg yeast to behave properly.

If your bootleg yeast was Fuller's which is what Wyeast 1968 is
rumored to be, then your problem could be too much Ca in the wort.
Wyeast 1968 is supposed to floc out at the drop of a hat.  My first
batch of beer wouldn't drop bright if I beat it with a club.  I dropped
the temperature from 68 F to 45 F and it wouldn't drop bright.  I finally
filtered the beer and it was lovely, some pleasant esters yet basically
clean with no apparent defect.

I called Dave at Wyeast to see if there had been a problem with that
batch of yeast and perhaps the wrong yeast had been packaged.  Dave
assured me that was not the case.

I tried another batch of bitter with a different batch of Wyeast 1968 and
had the same result good beer but it wouldn't floc  and I filtered that
batch of beer.  Same results as the first.

Why didn't the yeast fall out?  The only reason I could come up with is
my water is very soft with a very low amount of Ca.  When I brewed
the above mentioned beers I adjusted the pH with lactic acid and used
no gypsum in the beers as I was brewing for Bill and I prefer a softer
bitterness then Burtanizing the mash and water will give me.

Domenick didn't state what he used for water adjustment but I think
that it is possible that his problem is too much Calcium in the wort  for
this particular yeast which could have caused the yeast to floc
prematurely.  Perhaps his idea of using the  ammonium sulfate  to get
the sulfate he wanted and forgetting about the calcium chloride would
do the trick.


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From: Joseph.Fleming at gsa.gov
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 11:09:43 EST
Subject: Aeration

     Is it even close to being effective?
        Can anyone gauge how effective different aeration methods are?
     Like using the racking tube with holes in it gets you X times as much
     O2 as carboy shaking and X times worse than an hour with an oxygen
     stone?  What is the ideal aeration amount (ballpark for high and low
     gravity worts)?
        Also (asking for the third time!), can anyone say whether FOOP is a
     myth or not?  If it is, can an aeration stone be any better than a
     whisk or electric breaters?

     On Gelatin
        The past couple of batches I've fined with gelatin and bottled have
     had the tendancy to form yeast chunks in the glass when poured, even
     when taking care to leave the yeast cake undisturbed and not decanting
     the last ounce or so (the chunks still escape).  Not aethetically
     pleasing to have chuncks floating around your glass.  Anyone else
     notice this?  I've since gone to no fining and no chucks problems.
     Technique: using various Wyeast strains, add 1/2 packet Knox to 2C
     cold water, swell, bring to close to a boil (well, some have boiled),
     chill, add to secondary 3 days before bottling.

     Oh, the humanity!
        While recuperating from an ear infection I am cannot consume
     fermented beverages.  Apparently yeast aggravates congestion.  How
     could Man's best friend betray me so?!

                Joe
                joseph.fleming at gsa.gov


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From: "Tracy Aquilla" <aquilla at salus.med.uvm.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 11:36:39 CDT
Subject: Re: esters

In Digest # 2070:
Bill Giffin <billg at maine.com> wrote:
>Esters are formed by the combination of alcohol and acid.  I think that
>all beer has alcohol and acid.  Would I then be correct to state that all
>beer has esters?

Yes. Ethyl acetate is by far the most abundant ester in beer, but about 100
different others have been identified as well.

>If our beers had no esters would we be happy with them?

Probably not. The esters are critical to the aroma and flavor of beer. In
many beer styles, the esters are important defining characteristics. Without
ANY esters it probably wouldn't taste/smell much like beer.

>Even though some of the esters are below the taste threshold, would they be
>missed if they were not there?

Probably. Depends a lot on the particular compound (and what you like!).

>When the discussion talked about an increase in the level of esters if the
>wort were aerated.  By how much?

It's impossible to say how much without actually measuring (i.e. by GC, TLC,
etc.), but if any particular esters can be detected by sensory evaluation,
it's probably safe to assume in most cases that the level is above
threshold, and higher than in beers where they are undetectable.

>More important then worrying about the production of esters is to use
>yeast that is low in ester production if that is what is desired and using
>yeast that produce a lot of esters if that is what is sought.

True, the yeast strain will definitely have far more impact than worrying!

>Another thought, there are a few strains of yeast that produce fewer
>esters if they are fermented warm.  One is Yeast Labs A-07 another is
>Wyeast 1214.

Very interesting. Thanks for the info.

>Swings in the fermentation temperature also seem to increase the
>production of esters.  I don't know why and have not found a source
>for this but it seems to occur.

According to the literature I've been able to dig up so far, it seems that
certain specific yeast esterases and ester synthase enzymes are thought to
be induced by anaerobic conditions. I suppose other changes in the
environment (eg. temp. fluct.) could probably trigger a similar response.
Generally, that which causes the yeast to grow very rapidly tends also to
increase ester synthesis, such as a high temperature or a high gravity wort.


In Digest #2072:
Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com> wrote:
>In my quest for a perfect Fuller's ESB clone I decided to try do
>everything I could to get my bootleg yeast to behave properly.  In
>batches past (3) this yeast has stalled at 1.025 from an OG of 1.057.

In terms of the 'perfect' Fuller's clone, was your intention with this
latest batch to increase esters or to increase attenuation (or both, or
something else)? 56% apparent attenuation is pretty low, even for a highly
flocculant strain, and I think moving up from 56% AA to 65% AA is a
significant increase. Considering you've made three different attempts (4
now) with this isolate, your results indicate to me that your yeast
(isolated from a bottle?) may be a mutant. Have you tried streaking your
culture to see if any petite colonies can be isolated? Even a very low level
of petites can ruin beer. Increased flocculation or loss of ability to
ferment minor wort sugars can also cause high FGs. Have you noticed any
other problems with this isolate?

>I assumed that the yeast had a high oxygen requirement as it comes out of
>an open fermentation with dropping environment.

Is this a valid assumption (perhaps so, based on your results)? I don't know
myself (I might have actually made the same assumption), but it might not
be. (...since I've never noticed #1968 being fastidious wrt oxygen...)

>Aeration was extensive and periodic during the active
>primary fermentation at 63-66F.  I aerated at 0, 14, 24, and 54 hours.

How long was aeration at each time point and was there any shaking? Was the
starter aerated/fed just prior to pitching, or did you expect a significant 
lag?

>The fermentation stopped dead at 1.020.

Still seems a bit high (i.e. low AA). I presume you made a highly
fermentable wort (as opposed to a dextrinous wort). True? What was the malt
and mash program used? What final density were you expecting?

>The beer tasted good, even Fulleresque, though it was pretty heavy. I 
detected
>no excessive fruitiness or esteriness and it did not differ too much from
>previous batches with this yeast that were pitched and aerated normally.  I
>guess that my single data point is this: in one batch with a massive starter
>and extensive aeration (during active fermentation) excessive esters were NOT
>formed.

Did cell culture density increase significantly during the fermentation
(yeast counts before/after fermentation)? Since you apparently overpitched,
I wouldn't expect excessive esters because a high pitching rate would likely
preclude extensive budding during the fermentation. (If you had underpitched
and aerated continuously during the first 12 hours of fermentation, I would
expect noticeably more esters.)

>So, how did I ruin my beer?  Like General Montgomery I went too far.  I
>decided to put my own speculations to the test and see if aeration would
>restart a stuck fermentation.

I think this case falls short of a  true 'stuck' fermentation. It finished a
little on the high side, but I wouldn't really call this stuck, because I
think there is a difference between a high FG and a true stuck ferment.

>I aerated again at 101 hours when there was
>NO airlock activity whatsoever.  Oops.  Can you say "20 minute
>shelf-life"?  Can you say "cloying"?  Can you say "sherry"?  The
>fermentation did not restart; the beer began to go off.

Well, what did you expect! Of course, aeration THAT late (essentially AFTER
the fermentation) will almost always accelerate oxidation reactions to the
point where oxidation products would be very obvious.

>A number of lessons should be learned from this.  Not all "stuck"
>fermentations can be cured with aeration.

Also note the difference between stuck and a high FG.

>Finally, what else could I have tried to unstick the fermentation or
>to get it to continue longer?

This is speculative, but I think the problem you have here may be with the
yeast. You may have isolated a mutant, or perhaps the strain you have is OK
but it hasn't yet recovered from the isolation procedure. If the yeast in
the bottle is old, it can sometimes take many generations to return to
'normal'. Unless your worts had more unfermentables than you expected, I can
think of no other reasonable explanation for your reported high FG
observations with this isolate, particularly considering this last
experiment you did.

>I think that it is safe to assume that the fermentation was NOT oxygen 
limited.
>The accepted dogma is that all-grain worts are oxygen limited and extract 
worts
>are nitrogen (FAN) limited.  I speculate that the wort became FAN limited and
>that perhaps the addition of yeast fertilizer (ammonium sulfate) would have
>restarted the fermentation, or the initial enrichment of the wort with 
ammonium
>sulfate would have allowed the fermentation to continue.

While extracts are notorious for having low levels of FAN, it's also
possible with all-grain brews, particularly with mutant yeast (eg. at a
locus relevant to AA metab.). Considering that you may have overpitched this
batch and the OG is only about 'average', it's also possible that yeast
growth quickly became FAN-limited, especially if you used much malt extract
in the recipe.
Tracy


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From: bhanson-mtc at rica.net (Ben Hanson)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 06:47:54 -0500
Subject: [none]

Greetings,

A friend of mine recently sent me one of the more interesting brewing
gadgets I have seen for quite a while.  It is a mini-chiller for taking
gravity readings of wort at a variety of temps.  Instead of my usual
process of putting the hydrometer tube in the freezer for 20 minutes to
cool boiling wort to 60 degrees, you just run this contraption under tap
water for about a minute, and the copper center dissipates heat from the
sample inside.  It's pretty neat, a time saver, and it also could be used
to bring lagering samples back up to 60 degrees.  My friend has a web page
advertising this gizmo for the masses at:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/JanetRuhl/chiller.htm

enjoy!

Ben

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(540) 434-5961

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