---

   FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
        Shawn Steele, Digest Janitor
        Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!

Contents:
  Digest Janitor on HBD Length ((Shawn Steele))
  H.O.T.H. scam/HBD volume (Don Trotter)
  Beer milkshakes (Robert Hatcher)
  top 10 list ("ted hull")
  MORE too much HBD. (Russell Mast)
  Redundancy. (Russell Mast)
  Warner and maltose rests (Jim Busch)
  Low cost equipment (Kathy Booth )
  Normal? We all Agree? (Charlie Scandrett)
  RIMS Pumps (JoeDonn at aol.com)
  RE: Too Much HBD? ("Kelsey, Timothy W.")
  The Blaster (Brad Raley)
  RE: Soapy Beer / Beer in spaaaace projections ("Aubrey Scott Howe, III")
  Re: Too much HBD? (hollen at vigra.com)
  Re: Iodophor (hollen at vigra.com)
  Re: Costa Mesa, CA mash improvements ((Jack Stafford))
  Soapy Beer/Chile Beer ("Fotovich, Paddy")
  Too much HBD? (Jeff Frane)
  Grolsch Caps (KennyEddy at aol.com)
  Re: insulating a carboy ((Gary McCarthy))
  Wet T-shirts ("Bryan L. Gros")
  Whew!, RIMS,Glucose priming ("David R. Burley")
  RE: Carboy insulation/Beer in Space ("Olson, Greger J - CI/911-2")
  freezer compartment removal? (Jerry Cunningham)
  Re:  Canning wort for starters ((Peter & Kristi Sabin))
  Old/Young Yeast - HUH? (Joe Rolfe)
  Re: Iodophor (Bill Rust)

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shawn at aob.org (Shawn Steele)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 09:15:51 -0600
Subject: Digest Janitor on HBD Length

>From all of the input on HBD length I have decided that the following
should probably apply:

1.  Technically it would be difficult to restrict the digest length to
the original 50K/day.  There is also mixed opinions about the
desirability of such a feature, so, for now, nothing like that will
happen.

2.  People should probably try to keep the noise down.  As long-term
HBDers know, this subject comes up every once in a while and then
people improve their habits, and then it slides again...

3.  I will eventually add a index to the confirmation message and then
I will add a cancel feature, however it will have to wait until I have
free time, which may be as late as October.  In the meantime, #2,
above, applies.

4.  If anyone would like to add their input, please send *private*
e-mail to shawn at aob.org.  I will read them although I may not have the
time to reply.  Should anyone have any neat suggestions I will reply to
the list.

- - shawn
Digest Janitor

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From: Don Trotter <dtrotter at imtn.tpd.dsccc.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 09:41:46 -0500
Subject: H.O.T.H. scam/HBD volume

> In HBD #2104, Bill Rust wrote:
>
>>From that letter from Dave Ryder:
>>............................................  After doing this, we have,
>>what we call, the "heart of the hop."
>Sure sounds like a definition of hop extract wrapped up in a bunch of
>marketing schpeel to me!
>

Here, here!  Have you even tried the stuff?  If it has any hop
flavor/aroma I'm surprised.  Why don't they just admit it's a scam?

>One more thing:  Gee, doesn't all the griping about the volume of posts
>contribute to the problem?  (my $0.02)

_DITTO_.  HBD content/quality is also suffering, so please.

Enjoy,
don

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From: Robert Hatcher <rhatcher at freenet.tlh.fl.us>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 10:39:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Beer milkshakes

I was in Magic City Brewery, Birmingham, Ala, the other day and saw an
entry on their dessert menu for a Chocolate malt milkshake.  There was an
age requirement of 21 to order.  I had intended to ask about this, but
forgot.  I will be returning there in the future, but until then, has
anyone else heard of this?  And, how would one go about making a
milkshake with beer?  Is it as simple as to just add beer to the mix
 ...?

Robert Hatcher 			"...growing older but not up..."(jb)
Online System Support		
Southern Company Services, Atlanta


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From: "ted hull" <Ted=Hull%GEN%Atlanta at brwncald.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 96 4:22:21 EDT
Subject: top 10 list

don't know if anyone's seen this yet:
(from food & wine, 8/96)

top 10 unorthodox flavorings used in entries in the boston beer
company's homebrew contest:
1. Zatarain's crab boil
2. Kiwi juice
3. Honey, ginger, jasmine rice, and peppers
4. Horseradish
5. Licorice root powder
6. Hickory
7. Maple syrup and crushed walnuts
8. Banana
9. Chocolate mint
10. Mango

actually, they don't seem that unusual to me (exc. the crab
boil)

ted hull

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From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 10:15:38 -0500
Subject: MORE too much HBD.

> From: Eugene Sonn <eugene at dreamscape.com>
> Subject: Re: too much HBD
>
> We might not be so overloaded if everyone stopped talking about it.  ;)

Absolutely!  I couldn't agree more.  What a waste of bandwidth it is for us
to complain about the wasting of bandwidth.

> From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at ford.com>
> Subject: Young yeast/old yeast; humor; amylase, spamylase

> life. And less repetition. It's pretty tiring to see the same words over and
> over and over. No new ground is being covered.

Pat, as usual, you hit the nail right on the head.  You called it.  Definately.
You are absolutely right about redundancy.  I get so sick of it sometimes.
In fact, it makes me ill rather often.  I'm tired of it, and I want it to stop.
So, no more redundancy.  I've had enough.  Man.

> From: "Allan Rubinoff" <allan_rubinoff at mathworks.com>
> Subject: Too much HBD?
>
> A couple of people have already made this point, but I'd like to speak up
> in agreement.  The HBD volume could be reduced significantly if two
> features from the "old" HBD were reinstated:  the ability to cancel
> articles, and the ability to see what else is in the queue.

That would help, but only for those on the digested version.  Maybe it makes
sense to go back to the old format, that is to remove the option of the
undigested version.  I'd like to take a straw poll - please reply to me via
PRIVATE E-MAIL how you feel about the undigested option (and whether or not
you use it) and I'll post the results, eh?  rmast at fnbc.com

While supplies last,
- -Russell Mast.  (copyright 1996 Bill Clinton)

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From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 10:16:20 -0500
Subject: Redundancy.

> From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at ford.com>
> Subject: Young yeast/old yeast; humor; amylase, spamylase

> life. And less repetition. It's pretty tiring to see the same words over and
> over and over. No new ground is being covered.

Right you are, Pat!

A delicious part of this complete breakfast,
- -Russell Mast, copyright 1996 Ameritech, Inc.

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From: Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 11:18:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Warner and maltose rests

<In an earlier post I quoted a reference from M&BS that said that in the*wort*
<beta amylase had a lifetime of 45 min to an hour, at 150F if I recall
<correctly. Not the 15 minutes, some would have us to believe. I gave an 
example
<from Eric Warner's wheat beer book in which a saccharification temperature of
<158-162F was used and this was a decoction mash in which the beta Amylase
<should be lower than in an infusion mash, generally since part of the mash has
<been boiled.

Just wanted to point out that if you read the text describing Warners mash
programs in all cases he suggests a main mash rest at 145-149F which is
by definition a maltose rest.  In his Isar Weizen recipe he suggests a
mash rest at 147F for 20 minutes, after combining the decocted and main
mash.  Since roughly 60% of the main mash had not been subjected to boiling,
there should be plenty of beta amylase available to rapidly produce maltose.
This is crucial in Erics recipes as he wants a weizen to achieve 80% ADA.

The other point Id like to make in comparing Erics recipes to ones that employ
boiling water infusions is that he advocates raising mash temps via direct
heating (either using steam jackets in pro systems or direct fired heat in
other systems).  He carefully presents a temp ramp too, so that a specific
period of time is spent transitioning from one rest to another.  Significant
conversion occurs during this ramp phase, assuming the pH is optimum.

<12:44 PM added 2 quarts of Boiling water.  T= 120-122
<Began immediately to heat to 135F
<12:56 Reached 135F
<14:00 158F added 3qts(?)

While below optimums, I would suspect some maltose production to occur during
a 1 hour rest at 135F.

While short maltose rests (10-20 mins) wont yield complete conversion they
will significantly alter the ADA and are very useful to achive a dryer finish
in the beer.

Good brewing,

Jim Busch

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From: Kathy Booth <kbooth at ingham.k12.mi.us>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 11:22:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Low cost equipment

	Dean requested advice on tooling up but $160 brewing kettles were
formatible.I've brewed 60+ batches with the following and would not
change unless I wanted larger than 7 gal batches.

Buy two 20 qt SS stock pots when they go on sale ($19.95 here) and split
your boil.  Advantages are: quicker to heat, full volume boils, easier to
lift, safer, start one when sparge is partially complete.
Disadvantage(?)is the extra surface provides more liquid reduction.

I have a double sink and I fabricated a "Y" immersion cooler out of
humidifier supply copper tube. One tap Y's to the two coils so I get rapid
cooling.  When the water cools down, I close the sink drain and let the
water fill around the outside of the 20 qt stock pots to get extra
cooling surface.  Keep draining the sink or you'll defeat yourself.

Cheap...easy....available.....Critiques are welcome  jim booth, lansing,
mi.....CHEERS


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From: Charlie Scandrett <merino at buggs.cynergy.com.au>
Date: 
Subject: Normal? We all Agree?

Dead & Dying Catalysts

I have been following this enzyme thread because I have been interested, and
like Ken S. I don't care how long an understanding takes, so long as it is
an *understanding*! I was particularly intererested in what Steve Alexander
had to say because he obviously spends some time in libraries, and not just
with brewing books.

Dave Burley posted,
>Normal rule of thumb kinetics would suggest that at 158F, the rate of
>disappearance of beta amylase would be on the order of twice of what it is
at >150 ( i.e. 22 to 30 min in the above example)

What are these "normal" kinetics? I need to understand because I have been
studying proteins extensively for a Protein FAQ and part of that field is
the denaturing of proteins. As enzymes are proteins I would have thought
that they would behave the same as other proteins?

The denaturing of each type of protein occurs very quickly once the heat
energy of the molecules reaches a *threshold* greater than the weakest
disulphide bonds in the structure of that protein. The structure partially
collapses and, for enzymes, structure determines function, so function ceases.

Steve Alexander posted.
>  Typically the rates of inactivation for enzymes increase by
>10X to 100X per 10C increase, from memory the rates for grain amylases
>are around 20-30X per 10C.  If you overshoot the temp by 2C, you'll
>get roughly 1/2 the total activity

It follows that a 5C increase (150F-158F) would produce some X10-X15
increase in the denaturing rate of enzymes. You would get no more than 2-6
minutes of Beta Amylase activity at 70C?

I trust Steve's figures because he has given references in earlier posts and
because it agrees with my own study. The rate of reaction is much faster
than a reaction involving different reagents like starch and an enzyme.
There is a breaking of a single bond in a molecule that does not even
seperate into other compounds. I would have thought that the reaction was
closer to exponential kinetics. For instance, the ammount of hot break that
boiling at 100C for an hour achieves, can be had in 30 seconds at 130C under
pressure. This seems exponential to me?

I think that simply put, what this argument is all about is whether the
enzymes are stable enough at 158F to allow *time* of rest to be *the*
determining factor. The published (not anecdotal) evidence and data all show
that 158F is far too high for predictable enzyme activity. Extending the
time at this temperature would seem pointless, a Schmidling-like flying in
the face of science.

I would also argue that because these enzymes/proteins are operating outside
the environmental conditions one would normally find in the plants that
formed them, they tend to be unstable anyway. For repeatable results, I
would suggest setting rests well away from denaturing thresholds, closer to
the centre of the "optimum" range. Then time would be a predictable control
of activity and has some hope of influencing FG.

Until we all understand this we will continue to get "last word" posts,
putting another spin on the discussion, not the facts? Pity.

Charlie( Brisbane, Australia)


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From: JoeDonn at aol.com
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 11:59:00 -0400
Subject: RIMS Pumps

I have only been a subscriber for a few days and have already gained valuable
information.  Thanks Keith Royster for listing this at your RIMS page.

Question:  I am currently in the process of designing a single level RIMS
system with a sparge water keg, a cooler for a mash/lauter tun, and a boiling
kettle.  I plan to brew 10gal batches.  I went to a local surplus vendor and
picked up two pumps, at very reasonable prices.  One pump will be used to
circulate the mash liquor in the RIMS system and to transfer the wort from
the mash tun to boiling tun during lautering.  The other will be used to
transfer 170F water during the lauter.  I have just received a spec sheet
from the manufacturer and am a little concerned about using this pump for
this application.  I need some advice.  Specs of the pump are as follows:

- -  3-Chamber diaphram pump (the sales person told me it was magnetically
coulped pump)
- - MAX Temp 180F (I don't plan on exceeding this during sparging)
- - Check valve to prevent reverse flow
- - 2 liters/minute flow at open pressure
- - 1.5 liters/minute at 60psi
- - Suitable for food uses.  Typical use is R.O. Booster pump.

I don't have a HP listing.  Will these pumps serve my purposes?  If so, let
me know and if you need some, the vendor had 5 or 6 more at $39 each, I will
give you their phone number.  If not, I made sure I could return the pumps if
they could not suit my needs.  Your comments are appreciated.

Cheers,

Joe Alfrey (joedonn at aol.com)

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From: "Kelsey, Timothy W." <Kelsey at PO.AERS.PSU.EDU>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 20:53:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: RE: Too Much HBD?

[PARODY MODE ON]
O.K., for the sake of brevity, can I try to summarize HBD activity over the
past month or two?

An astronaut on the space shuttle was having difficulty with his mashing
schedule, and posted his water's analysis for input.  HBD'ers consensus
was (1) that mashing at 158 either does or does not work (depending upon
whether you wear your plaid space suit); (2) a poor grind could be the
problem.
Instead of spending $1.3 million on design, testing and construction of the
NASA titanium roller miller (with triple system redundancy), NASA should
have purchased a Malt Mill (tm); (3) beer labels with the phrase "made
with pure recycled astronaut urine" would make consumer acceptance
difficult; and (4) the volume of HBD posts is overloading the space shuttle
communication system.

Did I forget anything?
[PARODY MODE OFF]

Sometimes I do fall behind on reading HBD and get tired of the threads
that don't seem to die, but I can (and do) page down through stuff that
doesn't interest me.  Overall I am still learning a lot from HBD (I even
enjoyed the astronaut thread), and don't want that to be threatened by
artificially restricting the number of posts a day.

Tim Kelsey
Kelsey at po.aers.psu.edu
For more parody, check out Half Moon Brewing Co.'s homepage:
  http://www.aers.psu.edu/f/kelsey/os/hm/halfmoon.htm

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From: Brad Raley <bfraley at uoknor.edu>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 96 11:02:10 -0500
Subject: The Blaster

Greetings,
I have been away from the HBD for some time, so please forgive me if I am
backtracking on this subject.  I saw a bottle washer in a store in Colorado
called the Blaster that had two jets and connected to the faucet with a
plastic hose.  It claimed to be easier on the faucet and pipes than the jet
washer (the brass u-shaped washer that connects directly to the faucet) and
sold for about 12 bucks.  I have had a lot of problems with the jet style
washer, my faucet simply won't hold it for very long.  A couple of bottles
cleaned, then it falls off, leaving me in a spray of hot water.
Has anyone had any experience with this Blaster and where can I purchase
one?  I know it is made by Fermtech, but I cannot find one in the stores I
frequent or on the net.

I appreciate anyone's help.  Thank you.
**********************************
*Brad F. Raley			 *
*University of Oklahoma		 *
*bfraley at uoknor.edu 		 *
*"Beer, nature's perfect food!"  *
**********************************


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From: "Aubrey Scott Howe, III" <usapmash at ibmmail.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 12:08:26 EDT
Subject: RE: Soapy Beer / Beer in spaaaace projections

  Captain Goodale (Yes, you *do* have a cool name!) said:
   <snip>
 >>The CO2 is collected from the front vented to space to the
 >>rear, pushing the space craft.  Eventually the engines
 >>could be turned off, the craft being accelerated by
 >>beer.  The engines would have to be restarted as the
 >>fermentation died down.
   <unsnip>

    This would then be a beer engine, right? <grin> If we could sell this
  beer, it would probably really take off! (OK, OK, I'll stop!)
_______________________

    Paddy F. asked about Soapy Beer problems, and mentioned hops as a possible
  cause.
    I had a similar problem with some hops I had used, but I forgot which
  variety I was using; it may have been either cascade or willamette, though.
  They were used in the finish, and for some odd reason they gave it a soapy
  flavor. I'm pretty sure it was that, since I never use soap in my cleaning
  of brewing equipment.  What variety did you use for those batches that came
  out soapy?

  For cascades to taste soapy rather than weedy seemed kind of wierd to me
  too, maybe my hops were mis-marked???

   --Aubrey Howe, III
     President of The Santa Barbeerians
     Santa Barbara, CA
     usapmash at ibmmail.com



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From: hollen at vigra.com
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 96 09:05:11 PDT
Subject: Re: Too much HBD?

>>>>> "Allan" == "Allan Rubinoff" <allan_rubinoff at mathworks.com> writes:

Allan> A couple of people have already made this point, but I'd like
Allan> to speak up in agreement.  The HBD volume could be reduced
Allan> significantly if two features from the "old" HBD were
Allan> reinstated: the ability to cancel articles, and the ability to
Allan> see what else is in the queue.

Sorry to add to bandwidth but I have to disagree.  There is no way I
can find out whether what is in the queue says what I am saying.  All
it tells me is that someone else responded to the topic.

- --
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x164                 Email: hollen at vigra.com
Sr. Software Engineer - Vigra Div. of Visicom Labs  San Diego, California

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From: hollen at vigra.com
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 96 08:59:27 PDT
Subject: Re: Iodophor

>>>>> "Bill" == Bill Rust <wrust at csc.com> writes:

Bill> Iodophor's usefulness also degrades with time, although if kept
Bill> in a tighly sealed container this can be extended to a week
Bill> (i.e. Corny keg...)

Not quite true.  If kept in a corny keg, it will last indefinitely.  I
have tested the concentration with iodine indicator papers and at
least as accurate as the papers are, it stayed at 200ppm for months.

dion

- --
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x164                 Email: hollen at vigra.com
Sr. Software Engineer - Vigra Div. of Visicom Labs  San Diego, California

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From: stafford at newport26.hac.com (Jack Stafford)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 96 09:15:48 PDT
Subject: Re: Costa Mesa, CA mash improvements

> It is a 5 gallon batch.  It'll go into a keg this weekend so I
> will know what the FG is.  Lower mash temp should yield a lower
> FG (if I've been paying attention to all that discussion).

I measured it last night at 1.006  That's a pretty low number.
OG 1.064  FG 1.006

Jack
Costa Mesa, CA


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From: "Fotovich, Paddy" <pfotovic at ingr.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 13:06:46 -0500
Subject: Soapy Beer/Chile Beer

     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY) write

>     Paddy writes to ask why his beer tastes soapy.  High temp.
>     fermentation is a common cause of this (something to do with lipids,
>     don't remember specifically).  Could that be it?  Was this short
>     enough?

Bingo.  We have a winner.  That has to be it.  That is the only variable
in the brewing equation not held fixed.  My first IPA (best damn one at
that) was brewed in the winter all the others were brewed during the
summer.  I'm going to try the wet towel thing next weekend.  Thanks for
the help.

OAON, has anyone FWH using chilies.  I have a friend who is a
chilehead/beer drinker and I wanted to make a Chile beer.  I figured I
would FWH (FCH?) using some peppers.  Good/bad idea?  Maybe half of the
peppers FCH with the rest in the secondary?


Paddy Fotovich
pfotovic at ingr.com
(205) 730-3127
Second place is the first loser.


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From: Jeff Frane <jfrane at teleport.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 09:19:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Too much HBD?

 Having been on the list for the HBD for <mumble mumble> years now, I find
the idea of limiting it kind of weird, especially when it actually gets
interesting
now and again in spite of itself.  As others have mentioned, you don't actually
need to read the whole thing!!!  Check the list of subjects (you *do* use
subjects, don't you?), and figure out if there's anything of interest and read
that.

There are some people whose entire lives seem to be tied up in writing in
the Digest (you know who you are!), and it might be nice if they confined
themselves to a self-imposed limit.  It's certainly not necessary to respond
to everything posted, simply because you have an opinion (or even because
you hold the monopoly on The Truth in Brewing<tm>).

And when offering suggestions on how to cut down bandwidth, try to be
concise; I find it hugely ironic that someone would write 100+ lines in
such a suggestion.  Having said which: goodbye.

- --Jeff Frane


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From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 13:19:53 -0400
Subject: Grolsch Caps

Kurt Schilling asks:

<<
One quick question addressed to the collective wisdom of HBD land. How
or what is best way to prepare Grolsch bottles for use? By this I seek
>>

I leave the gaskets on, and "flip" them (inverted, so they're curving away
from the cap).  Then I just dishwasher-sanitize the lot of 'em.

Ken Schwartz
KennyEddy at aol.com
http://users.aol.com/kennyeddy

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From: gmccarthy at sisna.com (Gary McCarthy)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 11:57:01 -0600
Subject: Re: insulating a carboy

In HBD 2102, Val wrote:
>i am thinking about making a quilted sleeve/jacket for my carboy to
> help keep the temperature more even.  what do any or all of you think?

Don't do it!  It will just lead you to heartbreak and eventual angora abuse!

Really, though, if you that concerned with the temp swing in a carboy
overnight, just do it!


Gary McCarthy									Then I learned to play some lead guitar,
gmccarthy at sisna.com			 I was underage in this funky bar, & I stepped
                                      outside & smoked myself a J.   Paul
Simon



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From: "Bryan L. Gros" <grosbl at ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 14:03:13 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Wet T-shirts

AlK writes:
>John writes:
>>I've heard that a wet towel
>>or T-shirt around the fermenter in a bucket of shallow water will drop the
>>temperature about 10F.
>
>The drop in temperature depends a lot on your humidity.  If it is humid
>where the setup is, the drop in temperature could be a lot less than 10F.

I was pretty skeptical of this 10 degree number too.  And since I live in
the south with humidity, I wondered, but tried the wet t shirt anyway.
I put the bucket (with the carboy with the tshirt) near an A/C vent
in the corner and covered it with a towel (to prevent light from getting
in).  Well, with the A/C blowing near it, the temp (according to the
Fermometer) was 65 in a house that goes between 75 and 80.  Of course
the air is a lot dryer with the A/C going and the air is circulating by
the vent, so it all adds up to 10 degrees difference.

   - Bryan
     grosbl at ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

Check out the Music City Brewers homepage:
 http://www.theporch.com/~homebrew1/


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From: "David R. Burley" <103164.3202 at CompuServe.COM>
Date: 12 Jul 96 15:32:26 EDT
Subject: Whew!, RIMS,Glucose priming

Brewsters:

Whew!  AlK, at least you understood my ridiculous post. Thanks. I was getting
worried when I scanned through most of the HBD and saw no comment.  I was
getting afraid people were taking me seriously! I had hoped the ham radio thing

and all the other irrelevant (but wonderfully true!) info about me that I put 
in
my post on my brew schedule and procedures would tip people off to what I was
trying to do. I hope this parody of BS and egotism will set an example of how
NOT to behave here.  What's lacking from this medium is the ability to see each
other's faces and read the rest of the communication.  Hmmmm, could we insert a
.........

Based on recent experience, this wonderful forum could easily become a "my ego
is bigger than yours" type thing. We must not let that happen. It is NOT
important what kinds of degrees we have, how many and what kinds of prizes we
win, how wonderfully smart we are ( and I detect a LOT of smart, interesting
people out there) or anything else. In the future, when we are discussing a
point, no matter how heated it gets ( and I hope it does), lets stick to the
facts as points of argument. OK.?  Assume the best of each other and question
facts, not people.

Al, yeah, we will probably have heated disagreement in the future, hopefully it
will focus on the issues and everyone, including us, will learn something.. It
is dangerous to try to categorize and somehow dismiss someone by saying "Oh,
Dave is just like a polite Jack Schmidling" and stuff like that.  I have never
run a ham radio forum and find most ham activity, call sign, signal strength
contacts VERY boring.  I do like the high techie stuff, satellites, computer
controls, designing and building stuff, antennas, packet, field days, etc. 
Since
we have never met and spent time together, yet, ya hardly know me.

As a comment, I think it IS important to question dogma, impressions and
rules-of-thumb constantly, since circumstances (not facts and Mama Nature) of
application change - e.g. RIMS - although I have never done RIMS, I would think
we need to at least review things like temperature gradients, flow rates,
viscosities, etc which are not really part of normal amateur brewing lingo ( at
least not mine) today and their impact on quality. For example, I wonder how 
the
heater wattage, surface temperature and heater geometry and pump rate affect 
the
taste from carmelization, color, ratio of fermentables etc.,etc. Is the optimal
grist to water ratio larger or smaller than the "normal" ratio, etc.? Things I
may have missed out on in past HBD discussions and not part of any books I have
read, but nevertheless a part of that large universe of things we need to
understand better and not lock away as "solved".

And, yes, with my background, RIMS does sound more interesting every day.  You
might be right on that one Al.
- -------------------------------------------------------------
Speaking of RIMS, I reviewed Keith Royster's "My RIMS" web page yesterday,
http://dezines.com/ at your.service/RIMS.  Great job!  Excellent pictures!
Thanks Keith.
- -------------------------------------------------------------
Does anyone know how to keep the Win CIM's mail to 60 columns or so? Please let

me know.
- -------------------------------------------------------------
Speaking of dogma, I have recently been trying to use corn sugar to prime my
brews.  I must admit I am very disappointed with the results, so far.  For many
years, I used sucrose at the rate of 10 oz per 5 gallons.  I ignored Charlie's
suggestion in books 1,2 and 3 to prime with corn sugar, but then I read in Dave
Miller's book "The Complete Handbook of Home Brewing", P. 169  that using
glucose (corn sugar) would give me faster carbonation. "The rapid fermentation
means that a beer can be drunk after only a couple of weeks in the bottle" I
also think I remember in one of his books he talks about the yeast starting to
fement the priming glucose immediately so that by leaving the caps loose for a
while and capping later, the CO2 would purge any oxygen, and the Crabtree 
effect
and oxygen in the bottle not getting chewed up, etc.etc. It certainly sounded
like he knew what he was talking about.  I eventually (probably a year or two
later, since I wasn't unhappy)  ordered some corn sugar, thinking what a great
idea, no need to have the yeast take the time to invert the sucrose, etc.

Well, I don't have parallel comparisons, but my sense is that 1) glucose is
slower than sucrose by a substantial margin 2) 3/4 of a cup is not enough. 3/4
cup, the generally recommended amount , is about 5 oz, half of the amount of
sucrose I normally use. I toyed with the idea that maybe this reduced amount
was, perhaps, because the yeast wouldn't ferment the fructose, the other half 
of
the sucrose, and I would need twice as much sucrose as glucose, so I tried the
recommended 3/4 cup.  I later assumed that maybe I had low bulk density corn
sugar to try to explain the difference in my priming results with sucrose and
glucose. I tried intermediate amounts between 5 and 10 oz and recently went to 

10 oz and bought a new capper, thinking that might be the problem, since my
creaky old one was putting dents in the center of the cap. No difference.  Some
of my brews, several months old are now becoming properly carbonated, if a
little low, so it wasn't the capper.

I saw a post here about the fact that introducing glucose into a ferment that
had switched over to maltose as a foood source would shut the whole thing down
while the yeasts switched back to glucose as the metabolic pathway.  It wasn't
until then that I think I understood what has been happening. Is there a
reference?

Does this make sense that this is the source of my problem? Is the glucose
priming shutting down what small amount of yeast I have in the beer at bottling
time?  Any direct comparison info?  How long does it take the colony to recover
under these circumstances?

Could it be that sucrose, since it is not directly fermentable and won't shut
down the yeasts in the priming stage, is actually better than corn sugar for
priming?

Although I normally don't put yeast in at bottling, should I get a starter of
yeast going on the corn sugar and put that in at bottling time?

Does anyone weigh their corn sugar? How much is enough?

Keep on brewin'

Dave Burley


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From: "Olson, Greger J - CI/911-2" <gjolson at bpa.gov>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 96 12:37:00 PDT
Subject: RE: Carboy insulation/Beer in Space

For carboy insulation I've rapped them in closed-cell foam camping pads, and
then put the whole thing in a cardboard box.  Cheap (I've already got the
pads), effective, and closed cell foam is easy to clean if you, ahem, allow
your airlock to get plugged and produce a beer geyser.  For beer in space
the simplest solution seems to be a spherical or cylindrical fermenter which
can be spun to simulate gravity.  [All you physics types can calculate the
effect gyroscopic forces produced by rotating 5 gal or so of wort could have
on the orbital dynamics of the shuttle.

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From: Jerry Cunningham <gcunning at census.gov>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 15:46:30 -0400
Subject: freezer compartment removal?

I have a 3.7 cubic foot fridge that can hold one pin-lock keg and a 5 lb.
co2 bottle, plus a coupla bottles of yeast. Space is kinda tight. Can
anybody tell me how/if I can yank out the freezer compartment? It's pretty
worthless to me, it builds up major frost, freezes portions of the beer
line, etc. If you could explain in terms that an unscientifical mo-ron (that
would be me) can understand, I would greatly appreciate it!

Thanks,

- - Jerry Cunningham
  Annapolis, MD


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From: pts_kls at en.com (Peter & Kristi Sabin)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 16:48:31 -0400
Subject: Re:  Canning wort for starters

Jim Hodge writes that the food preservation route for canning foods is to
use a pressure cooker. In fact, the criteria for canning by boiling (max
temp 212) and pressure cooker (excess of 240 degrees) has to do with the
acidity of the food stuff.

Generally, foods that have high acidity can be safely canned by boiling.

I had decided to try the addition of citric acid to my starter wort to
bring the acidity to 'safe' levels. However, my local brew store (Grape &
Granary in Akron OH--standard interest disclaimer) suggested using high
alpha hops instead. So yesterday I made a batch of starter using two pounds
of DME, two gallons of water and 1 oz of 14% Chinook. (What a hoppy beer
that'd make, heh?).

I canned 14 pints of starter from this. If I don't die two months from now,
I'll let you know. :)

Hope this helps.


peter t. sabin
pts_kls at en.com  ph & fax 330.686.1335

ps.comm  market communication services
                   on-time...
                              or free.




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From: Joe Rolfe <onbc at shore.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 16:51:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Old/Young Yeast - HUH?

 hello all,
in refereence to pitching old/young  yeast from several

there has been a thread on this young/old yeast - i have no clue as to what
you all mean - old yeast is tired and has many birth scars, young yeast
has few or none.  after a number of scars (varies but have seen 10 to 15 as
being a number of interest) the yeast is beat.

there was an article in a recent trade mag about the viability and natural
order of mother/daughter percentages - possibly from G. Fix.  this delves into
the statistical percentage of how many birth scars per cell. either way
i doubt anyone would be able to pick the young from the old.  in a bottom
cropping situation - discard the first plug - harvest the middle layer - toss
the top layers.

now if you mean old/young as in time from pitching.  old yeast - unless
properly fed and kept cold is somewhat useless (IMHO) unless you have other
uses beside use in fermentation.  younger is better, and by this after the
primary fermentation is complete (for bottom cropping), cooled  and most
of the beer is somewhat brite, harvest the middle layer.  for most homebrewers
this is tough to do - unless you have a conical bottom tank or the upside
down carboy "thing".

from a packet of wyeast - use it all in a 10X volume starter - not sure how
much they put in the packets these days - but i would guess less than 25ml.
older packets or stressed packets should be built up in maybe half (x2) - to
insure rapid start.  this you may be able to tell from history of using a
yeast strain (how many days to bulge the packet).

i typically go to plate (twice now - due to a URI professors hints - to insure
as close to single cell start as possible - Tracy what do you think?)
then to 5 ml - which is going well after 24 hrs, then 10X.....on up to pitching
quantity.

well enough, old or new - newer is better......

joe

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From: Bill Rust <wrust at csc.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 96 15:06 EDT
Subject: Re: Iodophor

I was ready to roll over and stop reusing my iodophor solution after reading
the Zymurgy article, however...

In response to a statement in recent post Dion wrote me:
>>>>> "Bill" == Bill Rust <wrust at csc.com> writes:

Bill> Iodophor's usefulness also degrades with time, although if kept
Bill> in a tighly sealed container this can be extended to a week
Bill> (i.e. Corny keg...)

>Not quite true.  If kept in a corny keg, it will last indefinitely.  I
>have tested the concentration with iodine indicator papers and at
>least as accurate as the papers are, it stayed at 200ppm for months.

I hope you are right.  My own experience and your test results bear that
out.  The article says that iodine (12.5 ppm BTW, the 200ppm ratio was for
chlorine) will outgas from the solution given time, and that by keeping it
in a tightly sealed jar or PET bottle, it could remain stable for a week.
It could be that the iodine outgases into the headspace of the jar.  PET
bottles, from what I understand, are gas permeable anyway.

Could it be that the pressurized headspace in a corny keg keeps the iodine
in solution?  I'm no scientific guru (obviously), but can the iodine outgas
and be replaced by Co2?  How many lbs. of pressure would be required to
prevent the iodine from outgassing?  You need at least 5-6 lbs. just to make
sure the seals work.

OK, back to your regularly scheduled broadcast...

 -----------------------------------------------------------
 Bill Rust, Master Brewer |  for (beer=99; beer>0; beer--) {
 Jack Pine Savage Brewery |     take_one_down();
 Established 1985  (NACE) |     pass_it_around(); }
 -----------------------------------------------------------


- ------------------------------

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