---

   FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
        Shawn Steele, Digest Janitor
        Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!

Contents:
  Sulphites - who needs 'em? (Andy Walsh)
  guinness auction (Rscholz at aol.com)
  Re: giving recipies (Don Trotter)
  Sharing Recipes (Michael Caprara)
  Beet/cane molasses (rq at lysator.liu.se)
  Hopping/Extract Brewing (Paul Ward)
  Corny Keg Sanitation ("ESCHOVIL.US.ORACLE.COM")
  Zip City (talcottk at PENNIE.COM)
  CO2 Evolution in Secondary (Rob Reed)
  Giving up recipes (Steve Stroud)
  Where the hell is Zip City really?   ((George De Piro))
  re:autolysis and secondaries (Oliver Weatherbee)
  Oktoberfest vs. Scotch Ale / Lagale / Smoke / Rogue Smoke / Styles (Dave Greenlee)
  RE: La Chouffe (Steve Stroud)
  Re: New Miller: This "Heart of the Hops" ruse... (RUSt1d?)
  Re: secret recipes/ looking for Kolsch (lheavner at tcmail.frco.com)
  correction (M257876 at sl1001.mdc.com (bayerospace at mac))
  zip city bottles (Rscholz at aol.com)
  I forgot the Irish Moss! ((Billy Cole))
  Rice Hulls Source?/Gott Capacity/Bottle Cleaning (Eric Peters)
  How many #s in a 10 gal Gott? ((Preston Merrick))
  IFTIM, recipes (RUSt1d?)

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Andy Walsh <awalsh at crl.com.au>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 18:59:03 +1100
Subject: Sulphites - who needs 'em?

So if metabisuphites just give you a pathetic 99.9% kill 
factor, who needs 'em? 
Narziss has shown that a sulphite content in beer of 8-9 ppm 
leads to the most stable beer flavour on the shelf. Although 
yeast produces some during fermentation, some breweries add 
more to act as an antioxidant/preservative. The taste (whoops 
I mean "organoleptic" - gotta watch what I say!) threshold 
is about 25ppm. 
 
Sulphite binds with acetaldehyde, but not the higher aldehydes. 
(Aside: 
Acetaldehyde-bisulphite is found in beer but not the 
other aldehyde-bisulphites, such as trans-2-nonenal-bisulphite. 
Since trans-2-nonenal is responsible for cardboard staling, 
sulphite does not contribute to beer stability by a masking 
activity. Kaneda et al. from Sapporo contend that sulphites 
have a free radical scavenging activity instead). ie. sulphite 
acts as an antioxidant, but don't worry too much how this 
happens. Just about all wine has a ton (whoops again, I didn't 
really mean a *real* ton, not unless we're talking zillions of 
litres - oh s***, what's a zillion?) of sulphite in it for this 
reason. 
 
When acetaldehyde is bound by sulphite, it can no longer be 
reduced to ethanol. The normal fermentation pathway is blocked. 
For this reason sodium metabisulphite should not be used in 
bottle-conditioned beer as it can lead to high acetaldehyde 
levels. Sulphite should be added after fermentation has ceased. 
Personally I drink all my kegged beer way before it has a chance 
to stale. I like to keep some bottle-conditioned beer, but 
sulphite is clearly a no-no at the bottling stage. 
 
Sulphite reacts with hypochlorite (bleach). If you have plastic 
fermenters that have become impregnated with bleach, sodium met. 
can be used to help get rid of the chlorine. I routinely clean/ 
sanitise (better not say the 's' word around these parts!) 
with bleach, and keep a weak solution of sulphite in the container 
for storage afterwards. I am always careful to rinse out the 
container well before each use (maybe even give a bit of an H2O 
soak). 
 
Many people have a bad reaction to sulphite. It is really horrible 
stuff to use, and is unnecessary in homebrewing (exceptions above). 
I suspect its widespread use is a throwback from homebrewing's 
original links with winemaking. I really wish kit manufacturers 
would stop recommending it for all the wrong reasons. I also 
wonder how much of the homebrew/kit cider taste is a result 
of the brewer rinsing the bottles in a solution of this without 
rinsing with water afterwards (as I have also seen recommended 
around the traps). 
 
Andy "sterilise is not a dirty word" Walsh. 
 
- -- 
Andrew Walsh   CHAD Research Laboratories 
Phone (61 2) 212 6333  5/57 Foveaux Street 
Fax   (61 2) 212 1336  Surry Hills. NSW. 2010 
email awalsh at crl.com.au  Australia. 
 

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From: Rscholz at aol.com
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 08:03:08 -0400
Subject: guinness auction

brewsters, 
this isn't strictly brewing related but interesting none the less: 
 
NEW YORK, Aug 12 (Reuter) - Christie's East on Monday started displaying a 
large personal collection of advertising related to Irish brewer Guinness 
<GUIN.L>, ranging from 60-year-old posters to ceramic, boozy zoo animals, to 
be auctioned next month. 
   Bar owners and advertising fans inspected the collection of Briton Ian 
Livingston, who recently decided that the collection of several hundred items 
had overtaken his life, Christie's spokeswoman Jill Potterton. 
   Livingston, a games inventor, he sold half to the famous Irish brewer and 
half is scheduled to go on the auction block at Christie's in London on Sept. 
11. He will keep only one item: a Guinness lamp that started his collection 
passion 20 years ago. 
   Livingston, who launched Dungeons and Dragons in Britain, was attracted to 
the "whimsical, silly" character of the old-time Guinness advertising, 
Potterton said. 
   Many of the posters, figurines and trays feature the lazy zoo keeper 
character who for decades battled animals that tried to swipe his beer. 
   Ceramic pieces from 1956 include the exasperated zoo keeper, an ostrich 
who has swallowed a pint glass, a kangaroo with a bottle in his pouch and a 
seal, toucan and tortoise with beers. 
   Some items, such as posters proclaiming "Guinness is good for you," or 
special edition children's books with added references to beer, might be 
controversial if introduced today, Potterton said. 
   The Guinness company, which is about 200 years old, began advertising with 
posters in Scotland in 1928. The auction house expects interest from Irish 
pubs in Britain, Ireland, the United States and Asia. 
 
richard scholz 
bklyn ny 

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From: Don Trotter <dtrotter at imtn.tpd.dsccc.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 08:33:59 -0500
Subject: Re: giving recipies

 
To All: 
 
My point was a matter of encouragement, rather than criticism.  I don't 
believe that you or anyone else reading HBD are inept.  If you don't 
believe that you can write up a recipe from scratch, then give Suds a 
try.  I have made some recipes myself, and I have used suds.  Now I let 
suds do the calculations, but I pick the grains and hops according to 
style. 
 
I don't claim to be brewer extraordinaire.  I have been brewing steadily 
for just one year, and have gone from extract, to partial grain to all 
grain, and have formulated every recipe myself.  Some good, some not so 
good, some wonderful.  I've even dumped 5 batches, for various 
reasons.  I even finished a batch of English Pale Ale that started at 
1.041 and finished at 1.024 -- talk about near beer. 
 
My point is you learn from trying. 
 
Anyway, give the recipe I put out yesterday a try.  You should be 
pleasantly surprised.  Of course it's a 10 gallon recipe, so you may 
have to do some math.  The recipe and instructions, if done correctly 
will make a beer that will score 40 or more in a competition.  IT DID. 
 
I will, however, give up no more recipes. :| 
 
Enjoy, 
don 

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From: Michael Caprara <mcaprara at awwarf.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 07:35:52 -0600
Subject: Sharing Recipes

Hello Fellow Brewers! 
Well, I have to put my $.02 in since everyone else is!  I think that giving 
away recipes is a good thing.  In fact I put my recipes on my homebrew 
club's home(brew)page.  Some of these recipes are award winning 
beers.  My philosophy is that another brewer cannot duplicate my or 
your beers exactly, they may be better or they may not.  For example: 
Go to the LSD homepage (my homebrew club) 
<http:www.dimensional.com/~godbey/louthan.html> and look at my ESB 
recipe.  It took first place in the first round of the AHA National 
Competition, and it was a real good bitter.  In order for you to truly 
duplicate that beer, you have to have a stuck mash, pull the mash out of 
the mash tun and slowly heat it to about 165 degrees, put it back in the 
tun, bubble CO2 through the mash, and then sparge.  (I thought this beer 
would suck because of the problems, and the only reason I entered it 
was to get more than 12 entries thus reducing my entry fee!!!)  Also, I 
placed the fermenters on my Bass Amp and played some raunchy 
radical full volume bass licks through the beer (Yes, you CAN taste the 
Bass in it), keeping time with the airlock (which would invaribly speed up 
due to the massive vibrations from my thundering bass lines!).  So, with 
that said, please try to duplicate my Bass Bitter EXACTLY! 
 
Brewfully Deadicated 
MC                                  :{P}   <---mmmm  Bass Bitter 
You can taste the bass in it! #                                                
 
"Bass Bitter" and "You can taste the bass in it" are trademarks of the 
Dark Star Brewery, Littleton, Colorado 
 

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From: rq at lysator.liu.se
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 96 12:39:12 +0000
Subject: Beet/cane molasses

Hi, 
 
I want to brew a porter with molasses. What kind of 
molasses should I use? Here in Sweden beet sugar is 
the most common kind of sugar, and I've only seen 
beet molasses here. It smells nasty!! I guess molasses 
from cane sugar would be better. What kind of molasses 
is commonly used in brewing?????? 
Post or private e-mail. 
 
Thanks in advance. 
 
Erik Roennqvist, Linkoeping University, Sweden 
email:  rq at lysator.liu.se 

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From: Paul Ward <paulw at doc.state.vt.us>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 10:05:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Hopping/Extract Brewing

O.K., I've got several batches under my belt (literally), haven't 
had a major brewing disaster in the past couple of months, and am 
beginning to feel comfortable with what I'm doing and (more 
importantly) like my product.  So now it's time to reflect and 
try to improve process. 
 
I only brew extract/specialty grain, and probably always will (I 
know, anathema!).  My understanding is that we boil the extract 
with the hops at a rolling boil for a full 60 minutes not for the 
sake of the extract as much as for hop utilization (bitterness) 
because the alpha acid whatevers need to react with the extract 
components.  Because I'm boiling 6 or 7 pounds of extract in 
about 2 gallons of water, my hop efficiency is severely 
restricted and I have to compensate by adding more and more hops 
as I use more extract.  This doesn't sound like an efficient 
system to me. 
 
What I was wondering.....just exactly how much malt extract is 
needed to efficiently utilize hop products?  Instead of adding my 
full 6 pounds of DME to the 2 gallons of water with 2 ounces of 
Cascade, what would happen if I only added 1 pound of DME to the 
water and hops and boiled this for 45 minutes, and then added the 
remaining DME for the last 15 minutes of boil?  My thought is 
that this would cause less darkening (caramelization?) of the 
wort than the full 60 minute boil, hopefully giving a lighter 
product. 
 
Would the 1 pound of DME for the full rolling boil be enough for 
the hops to do their thing with?  (<--grammatically incorrect) 
 
Would 15 minutes be enough boil time to produce any and all 'hot 
break' (do you really get this from extract?) from the remaining 
malt extract? 
 
Am I barking up the wrong tree?  It just seems that lowering the 
specific gravity of the boil should increase hop utilization if 
that is the limiting factor in the first place. 
 
Should I take up another hobby and just buy good beer? (NAAAHH!!) 
 
Paul 
 
paulw at doc.state.vt.us 
 
- -- 
If vegetarians eat vegetables, what of humanitarians? 

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From: "ESCHOVIL.US.ORACLE.COM" <ESCHOVIL at us.oracle.com>
Date: 13 Aug 96 07:21:12 -0700
Subject: Corny Keg Sanitation

I recently had a really bad experience.  I just tapped my first attempt at 
kegging, and the beer was bad.  I hope I never taste infected beer again! 
Anyway, I think I know what went wrong.  The guy at my local shop who sold the 
corny to me told me to soak the keg and all of its parts in an iodophor 
solution and then let try overnight.  This offended my sensibilities because I 
thought that letting it air dry overnight would definitely present a 
possiblity for infection.  Could this be what happened? 
 
I am very new to the hobby, and up till this time, I have used bleach for my 
glass/plastic items with no problems.  Any ideas? 
 
Also, I have read here and elsewhere that it is possible to use twist-off 
bottles.  Do you need the special thinner caps, or will the regular one work 
fine? 
 
Aufwiedershreiben, 
 
Eric Schoville 
Think foreign languages are fun?  Try Klingon! 

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From: talcottk at PENNIE.COM
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 10:53:49 -0500
Subject: Zip City

FYI, Zip City Brewery is located at 3 West 18th Street in the 
Chelsea/Union Square neighborhood of Manhattan.  (212) 366-6333. 
 
While you're in the neighborhood: 
 
Nearby (within stumbling distance) is the Heartland Brewery, 35 
Union Square West, (212) 645-3400.  I've been to Heartland and 
Zip City and would say they're worth a visit if you are careful 
(interrogate the bartender) before choosing your beer. 
 
A little further away is Neptune Brewery, 448 West 16th Street, 
(212) 229-2129; I've never been there as it's a little out of the 
way, but have read some good reviews. 
 
If anyone would like a more complete list of NYC brewpubs I'd be 
happy to respond via e-mail; if I get enough interest I'll just 
post a list here. 
 
Kelly Talcott; talcottk at pennie.com 

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From: Rob Reed <rhreed at icdc.delcoelect.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 10:00:13 -0400 (CDT)
Subject: CO2 Evolution in Secondary

Al wrote responding to my post on the advantages of secondaries: 
> 
> >3) Two-step fermentation allows much of the dissolved CO2 to outgas 
> >   and yields more consistent carbonation for bottled beers 
> 
> This is incorrect.  The amount of CO2 in solution is simply a function 
> of temperature.  All the time in the world will not reduce the amount 
> of dissolved CO2 in the beer at a given temperature.  Yes, more CO2 
> may bubble out in the secondary, but that's only because of fermentation, 
> rise in temperature during racking or agitation during racking. 
 
Perhaps in a particulate-free container of liquid, the rate of CO2 
outgassing is *strictly* a function of temperature; however, 
my experience shows that beers racked to secondary usually bubble for 
2-3 weeks after which they settle down.  I attribute this to yeast 
flocs and protein-tannin precipitate acting as nucleation sites, much 
as the way polyclar or Si gel behave when added to my fermentor. 
Also, since I don't ferment my beer on an isolated foundation, there 
is vibration due to doors slamming, children and pets running through 
the house and the occasional pair of F-15s passing overhead. 
 
Cheers, 
 
Rob Reed 

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From: Steve Stroud <strouds at cliffy.polaroid.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 11:25:12 +0000
Subject: Giving up recipes

JimB>  ...the last thing I want to see is Jim Koch marketing 
JimB>  a  HopDevil knockoff because someone gave him a great 
JimB>  recipe in the  Longshot program.  Let the big boys 
JimB>  develop their own beers! 
 
 
Well, OK, but personally I'd be happy if _any_ American brewer came out 
with a De Hopduvel lookalike at a cheap price;  I wouldn't care how they 
got the recipe.  The current BBC restrictions on Longshot beers (>6% 
alc., standard BBC yeasts) limit what they can brew.  One of the nine 
winners this year was apparently a dubbel-like strong Belgian ale, but 
by the time the yeast is changed and the alcohol level is brought down 
it will probably drink more like a strongish brown ale - I hope that I'm 
wrong! 
 
Steve 

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From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro)
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 10:29:47 -0700
Subject: Where the hell is Zip City really?  

     Sorry to waste space on this, but every post about the location of Zip 
     City has been wrong, and it would be upsetting to see so many friendly 
     homebrewers wondering aimlessly around Manhattan! 
 
     Zip City is at 3 West 18th street between 5th and 6th avenues.  It is 
     not near NYU, nor is it near Columbus Circle, nor is Columbus Circle 
     near NYU!  Of course, all of these places are very near to each other 
     on a planetary scale, but that's not relevant here! 
 
     It is, like most NY city brew pubs, mediocre.  Worth the visit if 
     you're in the area, or collecting bottles, but that's it. 
 
     Have Fun! 
 
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY: a suburb just north of NYC) 

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From: Oliver Weatherbee <oliver at triton.cms.udel.edu>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 11:38:57 -0400
Subject: re:autolysis and secondaries

Al Korzonas replies to Rob's following arguments: 
 
>>1) Secondary fermentation allows time for yeast to drop and allows 
>>   time for your beer to clear naturally (via tannin-protein complexing) 
 
>I just leave the beer in primary longer. 
 
>>3) Two-step fermentation allows much of the dissolved CO2 to outgas 
>>   and yields more consistent carbonation for bottled beers 
 
>This is incorrect.  The amount of CO2 in solution is simply a function 
>of temperature.  All the time in the world will not reduce the amount 
>of dissolved CO2 in the beer at a given temperature.  Yes, more CO2 
>may bubble out in the secondary, but that's only because of fermentation, 
>rise in temperature during racking or agitation during racking.rise in 
>temperature during racking or agitation during racking.
 
>On the subject of clarity, the yeast will settle out.  I have gotten 
>comments from judges regarding the amount of yeast on the bottoms of my 
>bottles like: "nice lunar landscape..." so I do sometimes have more yeast 
>in the bottles than most, but this is also a function of how long I keep 
>the beer in the primary and how stingy I am siphoning every last drop out 
>of the primary. 
 
Al, I always find your postings interesting and informative but in light 
of your upcoming book(s?) I am also a little concerned with your 
(admitted) bias against using a secondary. Perhaps bias is not the right 
word, but from your own post I can see some advantages to using a 
secondary particulary for those of us who don't have ~40 fermenters. 
 
Providing adequate sanitation: Racking to secondary provides faster 
fermentation and clearing of the beer as per your response to Robs' (1) 
and I believe as you also allude to in number (3) the racking/agitation 
will hasten the fermentation to its FG. For me this means I can usually 
bottle 2 - 3 weeks after brewing (standard ales). Easily allowing me to 
stick to a once a month brew schedule. 
 
Also, avoiding too much bottle sediment has been a desire expressed 
by other beginners posting to this forum and r.c.b., a result achieved 
through the use of a secondary as you showed. 
 
I believe the issue is not whether there are benefits to using a 
secondary, but rather do those benefits outweigh the risks (infection, 
oxidation, etc.) and costs (time). For me I believe they do, for yourself 
apparantly not. Hopefully, when you present your material to a beginner, 
you will do so with an even hand. 
 
- -- 
________________________________________________________ 
Oliver Weatherbee   oliver at triton.cms.udel.edu 
   First State Brewers 
 http://triton.cms.udel.edu/~oliver/firststate/ 
________________________________________________________ 

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From: Dave Greenlee <daveg at mail.airmail.net>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 10:54:06 -0500
Subject: Oktoberfest vs. Scotch Ale / Lagale / Smoke / Rogue Smoke / Styles

TOPIC 1, OKT VS. SCOT:  What is the essential difference between Okt and 
an Export/Wee Heavy Scotch Ale?  In most style guides, Okt fits neatly 
into the lower end of the O.G. gap between Export and Wee Heavy, and if 
one eliminates the 'can have's' and 'may have's' and the places where the 
style guides disagree with one another to get down to the lowest common 
denominator of each style, it would seem to come down to the fact that 
the Okt is a lager and the Scot is an ale, which would seem to be 
confirmed by my taste buds.  The Scots seem to me to be heartier with the 
broader range of flavors (i.e. some esters and diacetyl, etc.) that ale 
brewing brings, while the Okt's seem to have a sharply-defined, clean 
malt flavor, and perhaps a bit of tostiness or caramel flavor (aren't 
they the same?) from the use of Munich or Vienna malt and lagering.  The 
only other mostly-agreed upon difference in the style guides would seem 
to be that the Okt's can have that clean maltiness balanced by a bit of 
hoppiness, where hoppiness is not generally acceptable in the Scots, but 
my tastings would not seem to bear this out on the Okt side; if they're 
hopped to the point that it can be detected, I can't detect it. So: 
+     From an lowest common denominator point of view, is my 
undisciplined brain or my unruly crew of taste buds missing something? 
 
TOPIC B, LAGALE:  What kind of Frankenstein's monster would I be creating 
if I were to make a ScotOberfest Lagale?  That is, a brew which is made 
basicly as an ale, but which strikes the balance between the two styles 
by using a ale yeast with lager characteristics?  (I need to get a yeast 
that will let me work at higher temperatures; I can probably manage a 
fairly steady 65F, but not much lower than that.  Wyeast California Lager 
Yeast 2112 is what I was thinking of using, or one of the 
brewing-Okt-as-an-ale yeasts - Wyeast 1007 or 1338 - suggested by Roger 
Bergen in Oktoberfest Alternatives at 
http://realbeer.com/brewingtechniques/oa_online.html , and most likely 
the 1338.)  I'd also probably want to use some Munich, but that brings me 
to the next topic. 
 
TOPIC III, SMOKE:  Having read how to home-smoke malt and how to 
home-toast malt, doesn't smoked malt have, per se, a toasty flavor, or is 
the toasty/caramel flavor covered by the smoke flavor?  If I were to add 
some peat-smoked malt (from, I believe, Marris Otter [sp?]) to my lagale, 
to add a hint of Scots smokiness, but in a small amount so not as to 
create a RausScotBier - to which I'll return in a moment - would I get 
the toasty flavor I need in a Okt, or would I need to add some Munich as 
well?  Would Belgian Special B, Victory, or Belgian Biscuit malts, none 
of which I have ever used or tasted, be of any assistance? 
 
TOPIC d, THE TRUTH COMES OUT:  Okay, okay, what I really want to brew is 
a RausScotOberfest Lagale; a basic brew which I could split out into 
three batches: a Oktoberfest Lagale (leave out all the smoked malt), a 
Scotch Ale (a very light touch of peat smoked malt), and the full 
RausScotOberfest in which a hardwood smoke flavor is introduced (perhaps 
through the addition of liquid smoke to the basic Scotch Ale) to create 
something resembling Rogue Smoke. 
 
TOPIC FIVE, ROGUE SMOKE:  Rogue's brew page at 
http://204.152.97.15/rogue/ says that Rogue Smoke is brewed from: 
Northwest Harrington and Klages, Crystal, Carastan, Bamberg Beechwood 
Smoked, and Chuck Linquist's hand-smoked Munich malts (using alder and 
cherry), Perle and Saaz hops, plus their proprietary Pacman yeast. 
Does anyone have an idea as to the proper proportions for 5 gallons?  Is 
there _really_ any difference between the various hardwoods in flavor, 
once it gets into the beer? 
 
TOPIC LAST, STYLE GUIDES:  I have available to me, the style guides by 
Dawson (WWW), Papazian (HBC), AHA (1996), Walz (BJCESG), and Malt of the 
Earth (at http://www.maltbev.com/report/style.html); is Fred Eckhardt's 
book worth spending another $12-15 on with these at hand?  Is it badly 
out of date as to styles and, even so, still an authority? 
 
I welcome the advice of anyone bored enough to have read all of this! 
 
Nazdrowie, 
Dave Greenlee 
 

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From: Steve Stroud <strouds at cliffy.polaroid.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 12:07:04 +0000
Subject: RE: La Chouffe

Mark Peacock asks for some direction for developing a La Chouffe-like 
beer and has received some good advice from JimB and BobW. 
 
I would echo most of what they say and reinforce the point that you 
should use la Chouffe yeast if at all possible. Besides those sources 
already mentioned, the Belgian yeast sold by RTP cultures is the La 
Chouffe yeast. 
 
Wheeler and Protz's book "Brew Classic European Beers at Home" gives a 
recipe for La Chouffe;  the spicing in it is unusual.  Here is an 
outline of their recipe: 
 
5 US gallons 
OG 1.080 
 
pilsner malt 87% 
caramalt      5% 
white sucrose 8% 
 
A mixture of EKG, Styrian Goldings, and Saaz hops, all boiled one hour 
to give ~30 IBU's. 
 
_Ground_ spices, all boiled last 15 minutes: 
0.15 oz coriander 
0.15 oz cumin 
0.08 oz caraway seed (hmmmmmm......) 
 
 
Interesting addition of caraway;  has anyone here ever used it in a 
Belgian ale?  At 0.08 oz/5 gallons it must be barely detectable, just 
used for complexity. 
 
Steve Stroud 

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From: RUSt1d? <rust1d at li.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 96 12:05:33 -0700
Subject: Re: New Miller: This "Heart of the Hops" ruse...

>Miller Beer uses only the heart of the hop to produce a rich flavor 
>that diminshes the bitter and filling characterisitics typically 
>associated with full-flavored beers 
 
Funny, I never knew hops added to the "filling characterisitics" of 
a beer, and here i've been adding malt... 
 
>Miller Beer is brewed with four times as many hops as other premium, 
>mainstream beers 
 
Let's remember some math: 4*0 = 0. 
 
Real Hop Question: 
 
Looking at my hops the other day and comparing the leaves to a chart 
I got from the John Haas hop company, they all had three pointed leaves. 
According to the chart, only Cascade is supposed to have three points. 
(all the rest have five). I have Cascade, Chinook, Fuggles, Mt Hood, 
Perle, and Willamette growing. This is the first year for the plants. 
Do these plants only have three points on the leaf because they are young? 
 
I also noted that a forming hop cone looks alot like a sticky kind bud growing.
 
- -- 
John Varady                       HBRCP11: Homebrew Software Made Easy 
Boneyard Brewing Co.              http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady/ 
"Ale today, Gone tomorrow" 
 
 
 

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From: lheavner at tcmail.frco.com
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 11:06:16 -0500
Subject: Re: secret recipes/ looking for Kolsch

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may not understand. Parts of the message will appear as 
text. To process the rest, you will have to use a Mime 
compatible mail reader. Contact your vendor for details. 
 
- --IMA.Boundary.839954054 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII 
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part 
 
 
     Don Trotter <dtrotter at imtn.tpd.dsccc.com> asks: 
 
     How many of us give up our recipes? 
 
     Seeing all the recipe requests in HBD doesn't make me feel well. 
     Can't 
     any of the requesters develop their own recipes?  It really isn't 
     difficult.  A little light reading and a little light math, or a 
     recipe 
     formulation program is all it takes. 
 
     I for one have given a few recipes away to strangers, but will give no 
     more. 
 
     The beers I make are good -- all of my friends tell me so.  Shoot, 
 
     Honorable mention and a First Place winners tell me so.  I don't know 
     about you all, but I plan to enter many more competitions and would 
     not 
     like to compete against myself, err, someone else using my recipe. 
 
     So, go ahead.  Give it a try.  Formulate you own.  Remember what ol' 
     Charlie says, "Relax, ...."  You'll never know until you try. 
 
     Don, 
 
     relax.  not everybody who asks for a recipe wants to compete against 
     you.  Sometimes, we are just searching for that special beer that we 
     have not been able to create/duplicate.  I've been brewing longer than 
     I care to say and I have never entered a contest.  Until I got on the 
     internet, I had no idea how many people were involved in homebrewing. 
     I don't read zymurgy or any of the other mags and I don't have room on 
     my pc for recipe software that looks interesting.  Admittedly, 
     experimenting can be easy and fun, but it can take a while unless you 
     and your friends are heavy consumers or you get lucky in one of your 
     first few batches.  And it is hard to make a bad beer if you just pay 
     attention to the basics, but not everybody is adventurous in the 
     brewery/kitchen.  Anyway, I will freely give away any recipes that I 
     have tried.  They won't have an official judges comments attached, of 
     course. 
 
     Now for a request.  Is there a style defining Kolsch beer available in 
     Texas?  I recently brewed a Kolsch from a kit that was one of the best 
     beers I've had in quite a while.  The fruityness was incredible.  I 
     just don't know if it was true to style or not, because I am 
     unfamiliar with the style.  I used Wyeast Kolsch and fermented 
     relatively warm due to our hot and dry summer.  It was recommended as 
     an alternative to American Lite which some of my lowlife friends are 
     fond of and it has indeed been popular with them. 
 
     Lou Heavner 
     <lheavner at frmail.frco.com> 
     ...this from a guy who drinks beer floats... 
- --IMA.Boundary.839954054-- 

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From: M257876 at sl1001.mdc.com (bayerospace at mac)
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 11:47 -0600
Subject: correction

collective homebrew conscience: 
 
i need to clean up a misleading sentence from last time: 
 
 
>regarding racking to a secondary fermenter, i've done this with a few 
>beers this spring, particularly a couple of pilsners <SNIP> 
 
 
what i meant was, i DIDN'T rack the pilsners.  sorry for the confusion. 
 
hey, let's write about brewing, guys. 
 
brew hard, 
 
mark bayer 

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From: Rscholz at aol.com
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 12:48:56 -0400
Subject: zip city bottles

brewsters, 
 
Paul A. Hausman replies to Ronald  Narvaez: 
 
>>I was wondering if anybody has heard of this beer. The full name on the 
>>label was " Zip City Lager, Zip City Lager Brewing company Vienna" I am 
>>intrested in getting a bottle 
 
>Zip City Brewing Company is a brewpub located in downtown Manhattan 
>(New York City) somewhere around the Columbus Circle, NYU area. 
>"Vienna" is the name of one of their lager beers.  The "cool 
>bottles" (I've got one in my collection) are available only for 
>take out, directly from the brew-pub.  You hafta leave a hefty 
>deposit and are supposed to return it for refill or refund. 
 
 Just to clear a few details up: Zip City Brew Pub is located on 18th St just 
off 
 5th Ave. ( I go there offen, no afil) They have recently bottled their 
AltBier 
a great german dark ale and are distributing it around the new york area. 
I can get it at my local deli in brooklyn (Park Slope) I hear they will 
bottle 
more types based on the good response to the AltBier. 
Keep on Brewin' 
 
richard scholz 

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From: Billy_Cole at dgii.com (Billy Cole)
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 09:54:38 +0100
Subject: I forgot the Irish Moss!

 
I just brewed a batch of pale ale and forgot to add the Irish moss to the boil.
The beer
is still in its primary right now and I'd like to do something to clear it up a
bit. I've heard
conflicting information on the fact that the Irish moss can still be introduced
to the beer.
I plan on going to secondary in a couple of days. Can anyone supply me with any
ideas
on what I can do?? Thanks. 
 
 
 
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Billy Cole / Senior Engineer / Digi International 
ph: 206-867-3893x628 / pager: 206-663-0229 
billyc at dgii.com 
 

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From: Eric Peters <epeters at harris.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 96 13:48:30 EDT
Subject: Rice Hulls Source?/Gott Capacity/Bottle Cleaning

Does anyone know a convenient source for rice hulls?  Do health 
food stores carry them?  (Never been in one.)  Fifteen per cent 
oatmeal isn't enough anymore.  I usually have several hundred 
lbs. of two-row around, so it seems silly to go out and buy six- 
row. 
 
Thanks for your help! 
 
***** 
Steve writes (quoting Keith [quoting Dion]): 
>>> Did you somehow misunderstand, Keith?  Gott Cooler??  An 18# grain 
>>> bill in *my* 10 gal Gott is 4" from the top.  Where is there space 
>>> for another 10#??  How far from the top was your 20# mash? 
>> 
>>Me?  Misunderstand?  Never!  I was obviously referring to *metric* 
>>pounds ;) 
> 
>This tweaked my curiosity.  I routinely mash twelve pounds in a 10 gallon 
>Gott cooler for five gallon batches ( actually ~ 6 Gals. ).  I use 1.1 quarts 
>per pound of grist and a copper manifold with no false bottom.  While it 
>would be a stretch, I could double this mash and still fit it in the Gott. 
>Dion, do you use a false bottom?  How much strike water per pound? 
 
My Mechanical Wonder IPA contains 29 lbs. of grain and mashes in a 
10 gallon Gott.  I think I may have gone as high as 31 lbs. at one 
point.  It's just a matter of your water-grain ratio and how thick 
your willing to go.  A nine-iron is must for stirring those really 
thick mashes. 
 
***** 
On Fri, 09 Aug 96 16:04:49 edt  Mike Spinelli wrote: 
> HBDers, 
> Regarding bottle baking, in my opinion is overkill.  Several months ago I 
> explored this very thing on the HBD. Tried it twice and chucked the practice.
> i think it was Russell Mast who wrote to me that he doesn't do jack to his 
> bottles other than rinse them with water. 
 
Didn't we have an HBDer who spat in his last, partial bottle every time, 
and claimed not to have a problem?  I didn't do it. 
 
***** 
From: Scott Dornseif <SDORNSE at wpo.it.luc.edu> 
>Hello; 
>I am writing to complain about all the people complaining in the HBD. People 
>whining 
>about how hard it is to read, what people write Blah, Blah Blah. If people 
>don't stop 
>complaining I am going to have to complain. 
> Thank you for your time. 
>Scott Dornseif 
 
<whiny voice on> 
Well, I'd like complain about people who complain about people who 
complain about people who..... 
<whiny voice off> 
 
From: Marty Tippin <martyt at sky.net> 
>Well, I've had about enough of the degeneration of the HBD and will be 
>unsubscribing shortly. 
 
Hang in there Marty!  We just need a few good threads to really get 
the HBD going again.  How 'bout these ideas: 
 
   Dr. Crabtree  -  Genius or Crackpot? 
   Turd Beer  -  What category should I enter it in? 
   JSP Maltmill  -  God-given tool of the century? 
 
Uh oh.  Too much coffee this morning. 
 
Eric Peters 
 
"My opinion is worth what you are paying for it." -  David Harsh 
 

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From: labmgr at magicnet.net (Preston Merrick)
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 14:00:18 -0400
Subject: How many #s in a 10 gal Gott?

For Kieth, Steve, Dion and Elvis: 
 
I just finished a 27.5 lb mash in a 10 gal Igloo cooler.  It was a rather 
thick mash but wound up with just over 1 qt/ lb.  I would consider this the 
max. capacity and it wouldn't work with a thinner mash (smaller beers). 
 

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From: RUSt1d? <rust1d at li.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 14:12:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: IFTIM, recipes

>I just brewed a batch of pale ale and forgot to add the Irish 
>moss to the boil.  The beer is still in its primary right now 
>and I'd like to do something to clear it up a bit. 
 
Why not just wait and watch it clear on its own? I forget to add 
I.M. often and have never taken any other steps to clear the beer. 
If after 8-10 days in the primary it's still not clear then add 
some gelatin or polycar. Typically, you'll find you need nothing 
extra (unless your yeast is a bitch). 
 
>A little light reading and a little light math, or a recipe 
>formulation program is all it takes. 
 
Not only do I give away recipes, but I give away the software I 
wrote to calculate them. Hopefully people are using it to create 
better homebrew. If everyone was so stingy, no one would progress 
past the level of novice in this explosive hobby and this list 
would dry (sic.) up. I seldom copy a recipe, but rather prefer to 
average together several winning recipes, taking pieces from each 
that I like to create my own. 
 

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