---

   FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
        Shawn Steele, Digest Janitor
        Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!

Contents:
  PLEASE READ THIS NOTE! ((System Administrator))
  A presumed thread revival and thermometer question ("Gregory, Guy J.")
  re:  secondaries, sanitizing bottles (DEBOLT BRUCE)
  Maple (Kit Anderson)
  Re: Liberty Malt SS kettles with valve (Kent Fritz)
  Adding grain to water (Jim Busch)
  hop planting (Theo Elzinga)
  Blackberry/raspberry wine (Douglas Thomas)
  Winners from Made in the Shade-IV ((Jeff Handley & Gene Almquist))
  Starch Balling/Hammer mills/hydrogen peroxide for "sterile" air (korz at pubs.ih.lucent.com)
  Errors-To: bacchus at aob.org (Scott Dornseif)
  Pubcrawling in Maine (Kit Anderson)
  Propagation of Hops (Michael Caprara)
  Shiner Bock Recipe? ("Nickerson, Sam")
  Re: Mashing In (Nate Apkon)
  Maintaining brewing styles (JDPils at aol.com)
  Oktoberfest Recipes (JDPils at aol.com)
  Liberty Malt SS kettles with valve (DEBOLT BRUCE)
  Addendum to Aeration made easy ("Ed J. Basgall")
  Berr in Greece? (Bob Bessette/PicTel)
  Amylase Powder (KennyEddy at aol.com)
  Burners & Converted Kegs ("Kirk Harralson")
  Hazelnut Beer (CHRISTOPHER DIIORIO )
  Infection ? (Ian Smith)
  Roast vs. Toast / The Black Rice ("Dave Hinkle")

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: root at aob.org (System Administrator)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 96 14:39:26 MDT
Subject: PLEASE READ THIS NOTE!

Some people are still sending posts to the old HP address for the homebrew 
digest.  Please update your aliases, etc. to include the new address since 
the old one won't be around forever.  (homebrew at aob.org for submissions, 
homebrew-digest-request@ aob.org for (un)subscribe requests) 
 
TIA, 
shawn 
Digest Janitor 
 

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From: "Gregory, Guy J." <GGRE461 at ecy.wa.gov>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 96 10:37:00 PDT
Subject: A presumed thread revival and thermometer question

 
Chuck and Grace Burkins <burkins at oa.net> asks: 
 
> Whats your impression of the jet style King Kooker burners? 
Has anyone doing all grain actually scorched some wort, or is that a 
momism? I was sent the jet style in error, (miscommunication 
actually) and I want to know if I should send it back. It's quite a 
bit cheaper than the radial (ring) burner style cookers, and the 
claim that it can boil 7.5 Gal in 15 min is quite impressive (and 
tempting). My guess is that the radial style is more efficient and 
gives better control. What do you all think?" < 
 
Well, I have a single jet (Official hushpuppie fryer of NASCAR, complete 
with picture of Cale Yarborough on the front) and my brewpartner has a 
double ring burner.  We've discussed this at length, over vast volumes of 
beer of all kinds, and have come to the conclusion that they both get hot 
and beat the seeds outa an electric stove.  I'd like the double ring, cause 
its double, and the flame seems more efficient, but the single jet seems to 
work just fine for me.  And, it sounds like an F-15.  "Control" for me is 
important when cooking omelets; not real important for me when boiling. 
 Temp raising for mashing control I accomplish by removing the mashtun from 
the heat altogether....my brewpartner does the same with his ring burner. 
 -- 
Speaking of thermometers, a question: 
I use a 1" dial-type probe thermometer stuck through a coffee can lid 
floating on my mash to measure the temp while mashing.  My last batch I 
noted a discrepancy between the reading on the dial and reading on my 
outside thermometer, so I bought a new dial type and compared temps.  Yes, 
my old one reads 10 degrees hot, so my beer has some distinctive character 
notes.  The question is, what type of thermometer is favored for mashing, 
and what sort of calibration procedures do experienced homebrewers follow to 
ensure their thermometers read consistently batch to batch? 
 
TIA 
GuyG4 at aol.com 
Guy Gregory 
Lightning Creek Homebrewery 
Cold rest just ain't the best. 
 
 

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From: DEBOLT BRUCE <bdebolt at dow.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 96 13:54:10 -0400
Subject: re:  secondaries, sanitizing bottles

1.  Regarding not using secondaries (slightly dated topic). 
 
I asked this question of the collective about 6-8 months ago and after 
receiving a number of positive replies quit using a secondary fermenter. 
Now that I've tried it on a number of batches, I don't plan on ever using 
one again.  The time saving alone makes it worthwhile and I've had no 
detectable loss in quality (verified by a few contests).   Clarity and 
sediment haven't significantly changed either (I use Irish Moss).  Ever 
since I switched from dry to liquid yeast I don't get much bottle sediment 
anyway. 
 
Typically I ferment 7-14 days in a glass carboy, one week longer if dry 
hopped (yes, I drop hop in the primary).  Don't let your temperature get 
too high and you should be fine. 
 
As in all other brewing techniques, try it and see for yourself. 
 
2.  Sanitizing bottles 
 
Since it came up again I'll throw in my 2 cents worth.  I've used a 
dishwasher for 35+ batches now with no bottle infections.  After drinking a 
beer, I rinse three times with water and load in the bottom rack of the 
machine with the regular dishes.  I put the bottles away upside down.  On 
brewing day I run them through the dishwasher cycle with no detergent. 
When you open the door it makes an excellent shelf for bottling, all mess 
stays in the dishwasher. 
 
I tried this on a few bottles the first time, not wanting to risk an entire 
batch.  Over the next couple batches I increased the number of dishwasher 
sanitized bottles vs. iodophor sanitized, now that's all I do.  Try this 
gradual approach if you're nervous. 
 
In my previous house we had a hot water temperature boost on the washer 
which I always used.  In the apartment I'm now in I don't have the high 
temperature boost and it still worked for the last two batches. 

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From: Kit Anderson <kit at maine.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 11:22:37 -0500
Subject: Maple

Eric E-man asked: 
>I recently found a source for Maple Sugar.  At ten dollars a pound, it looks 
>like a reasonable substitute for maple syrup for brewing. 
 
>Anybody got an idea as to the chemical breakdown of maple sugar (in terms of 
>sucrose, maltose, dextrose, fructose, etc.)? 
 
100% sucrose. Maple syrup is graded by color. The lighter colors are the 
most popular. The color and flavor comes from carmelization. In the darker 
syrups, the sap has more amino acids that undergo Maillard browning. This 
contributes to a more intense maple flavor. Get Grade B dark amber if 
possible. Use the sugar in the same amounts that you would for table sugar. 
 
Just say no to Aunt Jemima. 
- - --- 
 
Kit  Anderson 
Bath, Maine 
<kit at maine.com> 
The Maine Beer Page  http://www.maine.com/brew 
 
 
- ------------------------------ 

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From: Kent Fritz <kfritz at gigatronics.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 96 10:58:31 PDT
Subject: Re: Liberty Malt SS kettles with valve

Bruce: 
 
The pots you describe sound suspiciously like the 50 liter pot that my wife 
bought for me from my local homebrew shop (similar construction, made in 
Italy.)  The included valve had straight threads, while the pot had 
welded-in pipe threads.  I used plenty of teflon tape when I assembled it, 
and after 4 brewing sessions, not one drip has been lost. 
 
After my immersion cooler has done its job, and the trub has settled, I just 
open the valve and let it pour into my fermenter.  It sucks the goo 
immediately around the valve, but most of it stays in the pot. 
 
So far, I'm happy with it. 
 
Kent Fritz 
 

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From: Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 14:07:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Adding grain to water

JC writes: 
>When doing an all grain mash; is there a reason to put the grains in first 
>and then add hot water? any problems if I put the water in first? It is 
>easier to measure the amount of hot water this way. TIA 
 
And Al correctly points out: 
 
<Yes.  Adding grain to water increases starch balling.  All commercial 
<breweries add water to grain or use what is known as a Steel's Masher 
<which mixes malt and water and delivers it into the mash tun. 
 
Despite the fact that it is possible to get starch balls when adding 
grain to water I do it this way in my pilot system.  I do it for the 
same reasons JC notes, its easier to measure my dough in water in 
the mash tun and heat it to the strike temperature.  The key is to 
carefully stir the malt in and avoid the temptation to dump it in 
too fast.  When Im doughing in with a friend doing the stirring I 
can dump the grain in pretty fast.  If Im going solo I have to be a 
bit more careful in the time and stirring.  Just pour some malt in 
to cover the water then stir it in and repeat.  It helps if you dont 
use a very thick mash.  I just made an Imperial Stout using 93 pounds 
of grain into 25 gals of water.  While I did get some balling, it was 
easy to smash them up.  Wait a bit when it gets thick and see if any 
balls rise to the surface and smash them before continuing. 
 
Jim Busch 
Colseville, Md 

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From: Theo Elzinga <theo.elzinga at pi.net>
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 21:50:10 +0200
Subject: hop planting

After lurking for some months (learning a lot, making better beers) I 
have a question about hops. I had 5 hop plants (dont know the exact 
species) but 3 of them are male, so I will destroy at least 2 of them. 
How can I get some new hopplants of the existing female plants (as my 
fench is long I can use some more). 
 
Theo Elzinga 
 
(My mother learned me drinking, why is she complaining about that now) 
 
 

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From: Douglas Thomas <thomasd at uchastings.edu>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 11:44:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Blackberry/raspberry wine

So you wanted a simple recipe? 
Here it goes.  This is my basic recipe for the dark berries 
15 pounds berries 
water to 5 1/2 gallons 
campden tablets 
sugar 
4 large oranges juice and zest 
acid blend 
pectic enzyme 
 
What I do is freeze the berries.  This makes extraction easier.  Let them 
thaw out completely before mashing.  It is best to put them into a press 
bag, and mash in the bottom of your primary bucket.  To this add water to 
5 1/2 gallons, juice and zest of oranges and the campden tablets (1 for 
each gallon).  Take your hydrometer readings and pH readings.  Adjust 
both.  I shoot for 8 1/2% - 11% alcohol, and a pH of about 2.9 - 3.5 
Outside of these can cause infection problems or off tastes.  One day 
after adjusting, add the pectic enzyme and the yeast starter.  Ferment 
without airlock for 1 day and then add the airlock and stir once each day 
for 4 days - 1 week.  Then just let it go.  When the bubbling in the 
airlock is pretty slow (once every 30 seconds) rack to the secondary, and 
let it continue until it is still.  Rack off the lees into another carboy 
and let it clear.  Rack again, this time with campden (keeps it from 
picking up too much oxygen) and fine if necessary.  If it does not need 
to be fined, this let it age for 1 - 2 months and then bottle. 
I prefer Lalvin champagne, Red Star Pasteur, or for a slightly sweet 
wine, Tokay. 
Hope this helps 
 
Doug Thomas 
thomasd at uchastings.edu 
 

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From: homebrew at infomagic.com (Jeff Handley & Gene Almquist)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 11:57:06 -0700
Subject: Winners from Made in the Shade-IV

The following people won First Place in the following 15 categories: 
 
Steve Soroka-Mead & Cider 
Miffie Seideman-Herb & Specialty/Classic Porter 
Cubby Lash-American Style Ale/American Pale Ale 
Frank Wetherell-Stout/Sweet Stout 
Nat Rowell-Pale Ale/Classic Pale Ale 
John Adkisson-Bock/Helles Bock 
Greg Scharrer-Barley Wine & Old Ale/Barley Wine 
Rick Drake/John Forbes-Vienna, Octoberfest, Marzen/Octoberfest Marzen 
Rick Drake/John Forbes-Porter/Brown Porter 
Rick Drake/John Forbes-Classic Pilsner/German Pilsner 
David Hinkle-Wheat Beer/German Weizen 
Suzanne Scott-Belgian, French Ale, Lambic/Biere de Garde 
Joe Early-Fruit Beer/Apricot Fruit Beer 
 
And Beast of Show went to Rick Drake and John Forbes for their German 
Pilsner! We would like to extend our congrats to eveyone who participated in 
this festival! 
******************************************** 
* Jeff Handley***outpost@ homebrewers.com   * 
* Homebrewers Outpost-Flagstaff, Arizona   * 
*      http://www.homebrewers.com          * 
*                                          * 
* Homer: "Thanks for coming to my party.   * 
*  Wow, you brought a whole beer keg!"     * 
* Barney: "Yeah.  Where can I fill it up?" * 
******************************************** 
 
 
- ------------------------------ 

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From: korz at pubs.ih.lucent.com
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 96 14:17:58 CDT
Subject: Starch Balling/Hammer mills/hydrogen peroxide for "sterile" air

Don writes: 
>Al, can you explain what "Starch Balling" is, and refer us to some 
>text?  I've been adding my grain to my water, and everything seems to 
>be working fine. 
 
Balled starch is where you have a little ball that looks like it's wet 
grain, but in fact, only the outside is wet -- there is a pocket of 
dry starch inside.  You can brew great beer by adding the malt to the 
water, but every now and then you can have a starch haze in the beer 
because you missed breaking up one of these starch balls at the beginning 
of the mash and it broke up only at mashout releasing starch into your 
wort. 
 
Another problem is that with a fine crush and a thick mash you can lose a 
significant portion of your extract to balled starch. 
 
Noonan is probably the most vocal about the risks of balled starch.  See 
any one of this three books: Brewing Lager Beer, Scotch Ale (which I'm 
currently reading) and his new Brewing Lager Beer book.  Miller is less 
adamant than Noonan, but I do believe he mentions it in Pilsner and 
possibly also in Complete Handbook of Homebrewing.  Look under "doughing-in." 
 
Frankly, you can look in any basic cookbook.  In the introductory pages 
it will say to always add liquids to dry goods and to do it slowly with 
lots of stirring in between.  Balling of the dry goods is again the 
concern. 
 
The other reason that we would prefer to not add the malt to the hot liquor 
is because of the enzymes.  Let's say you are starting with 180F water 
and plan to hit a target temp of 158F.  You add a pound of malt to 10 
quarts of hot water.  Stir till most of the clumps break up.  Now the 
water (and all the enzymes from that first pound of grist) are at, say 
176F.  You add another pound, stir; temp is 174F...  Only when you add 
the final pound and stir will you reach 158F. 
 
If you do it the other way around, the temperature of the mash starts 
at room temperature and approaches the first rest from below in stead 
of above. 
 
George writes: 
     Al is correct that the grain is sometimes wet down while being 
     transferred to the mash tun (where the bulk of the mash water is 
     waiting), but I've never been to a brewery where the water is added to 
     the grain (that doesn't mean that they don't exist, I don't claim to 
     have been everywhere!) 
 
In a Steel's Masher, my understanding is that all of the mash liquor goes 
through it and that there is not a large volume of hot liquor waiting in 
the tun (other than the foundation water, as Jeff points out correctly). 
George was absolutely right in pointing out that he hasn't been to every 
brewery and that's what I should have said too.  At the breweries that I've 
visited (perhaps 30 or 40) that I've asked how they mash-in (perhaps half) 
they either added the foundation water, then the grist then the rest of 
the water (slowly) used some variation of a Steel's Masher or a more modern 
system in which the grain passes through a spray of water on the way to the 
tun.  All the UK breweries I visited (except Traquair House, of course, and 
Burton Bridge) used Steel's Mashers. 
 
A Steel's Masher is basically a cylinder which contains a helical device. 
Malt and water enter the device from the back and a motor turns the helical 
blades.  In addition to mixing the grist and water, the blades push the 
mashed-in grains down the cylinder and into the mash tun. 
 
I, personally, always add the water to the grain.  Usually, I add about 
half, mix well and then add the rest, one gallon at a time, mixing well 
between water additions.  Once I tried it the other way around.  I got 
more tired chasing the floating starch balls around the tun than I do 
mixing the very thich mash.  I've even used a potato masher several times 
to break up the (inevitable) balled starch.  The point is that it's 
easier to break up the balled starch when it's wedged in among a thick mash 
then when it's a bunch of dumplings floating around. 
 
*** 
Tom (in food science heaven) writes: 
>THE BIG QUESTION:  has anyone out there in HBD-land used a hammer mill 
>to crush grain?  Someone mentioned a few months back that Guinness uses 
>hammer mills to crush their grain, so it should be possible. 
 
Not personally, but if you re-read the posts on the Guinness hammer mill, 
you'll find that it MUST be used in conjunction with their new mash filter. 
They don't use a lauter tun for the hammer milled grains -- it would not 
work.  A mash filter is like a big plate & frame filter (Coors uses them 
exclusively for their main product lines, incidentally) -- you pump the mash 
in and basically filter out the all but the wort. 
 
*** 
Ed writes: 
>Fill the jar about 1/2 full with hydrogen peroxide (H2O2). 
>You can sanitize the airstone and hose that goes into the wort by soaking 
>it in the peroxide (I usually suck some of the peroxide up into the 
>stone a few times and blow it out again.) 
>Now put the lid on tight so the inside airstone 
>is in the peroxide.  Put the sanitized end into your wort and turn on the 
>pump.  Ths gives you sterile oxygenated air. 
 
I'm afraid this is not sterile air.  It's not even sanitized air.  The 
only contact between the air and the hydrogen peroxide is at the surface 
of each bubble.  Any bacteria, wild yeast or molds that are in the air 
are still floating around in each little bubble.  You can't make the 
bubbles small enough to sanitize (let alone sterilize) the air.  When 
the bubble pops, any microbes in the bubble go flying out into the headspace 
of the jar and eventually into your wort. 
 
It's much simpler and cheaper to buy a 0.2 micron syringe filter and put 
that in-line between your pump and airstone.  Heartland Hydroponics and 
Brewer's Resource (no affiliation) sell these things already assembled. 
 
I bought one of these and used it a couple of times, but the problem is 
that it takes a long time to get the wort even close to the proper O2 
level and I had to turn off the pump every minute or two because the 
foam was crawling out of the carboy.  1 minute of aeration, 10 minutes 
rest, 1 minute of aeration...  Because I'm usually pitching yeast at 
midnight the additional hour to aerate was not pleasant.  I've since 
bought an Oxynater(tm) and while there is still a lot of foam created, 
I only need to oxygenate 1 minute, rest 10 minutes, oxygenate 1 minute 
and I'm done. 
 
Al. 
 
Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL 
korzonas at lucent.com 
Copyright 1996 Al Korzonas 

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From: Scott Dornseif <SDORNSE at wpo.it.luc.edu>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 14:12:26 -0500
Subject: Errors-To: bacchus at aob.org

<<<< 
From: Kevin Kane <kkane at uidaho.edu> 
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 20:12:05 -0700 (PDT) 
Subject: Overnight mash 
 
A friend and I tried an overnight mash for a stout the other day, (snip) but 
has anyone
tried this before, (snip)I'm  concerned about astringent flavors 
and components that would contribute to  a greater-than-normal 
amount of haze. (snip) >>> 
 
I too would like to hear about any disadvantageous reactions during an extended
mash... sometimes you find that you HAVE GOT TO tend to something else during 
brewday. 
Just as a related point of interest, I have let freshly sparged wort, (for a 
stout) set 12 -
15 hours overnight to "sour" the batch.  For THIS check Paps. Joy under SOUR 
MASH. 
Scott Dornseif 
 

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From: Kit Anderson <kit at maine.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 15:57:07 -0400
Subject: Pubcrawling in Maine

>Eugene Sonn asks about Alagash Brewing in Portland, ME. 
>>Anyone in Upstate New York or 
>>Massachusetts seen any in stores?  I believe they make Belgian Ales. 
 
>Haven't seen it around the Albany area.  My Maine itinerary shows it as a 
>brewpub.  Now that doesn't mean that they don't distribute, but I didn't see 
>any in the stores in Bar Harbor either.  Granted that BH is a long way from 
>Portland, but you CAN get there from here.  I wish I'd known about the 
>Belgian thing though.  We stopped in Gritty McDuff's on the way home.  The 
>stout was OK but we would have liked a Trappist Style Ale better. 
 
 
The Maine Beer Page is at http://www.maine.com/brew 
 
There are 22 breweries there now. Maybe 23 if I can get someone to answer 
the phone and confirm that they exist. 
Allagash is a brewery, not a brewpub. They started bottling a few months 
ago. So I doubt distribution is in New York. They brew a respectable wit 
(had 3 yesterday) and a dubbel. The dubbel has a sharpness and a distinct 
chocolate flavor that make it a weird Trappist. 
 
If you stop at Gritty's, the brewpub in Freeport is better than the one in 
Portland. 
 
- --- 
 
Kit  Anderson 
<kit at maine.com> 
Bath, Maine 
The Maine Beer Page  http://www.maine.com/brew 
 

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From: Michael Caprara <mcaprara at awwarf.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 13:52:46 -0600
Subject: Propagation of Hops

Theo, 
First, don't destroy the females (the ones with the cones!)  They are the 
ones you want. 
 
As for propagation of hops, it is very easy!  There are a few ways. 
1.  Plant from seed.  This is the least desirable because you have to let 
your plants go to seed and the seedlings take a long time. 
 
2.  Take cuttings.  In the spring, you are supposed to cut back the new 
growth so that you only have 3 or 4 shoots per hill.  When you cut off a 
new shoot you can root it.  The easiest way is to just stick the freshly 
cut shoot into the dirt.  You have to water the freshly planted shoots a lot 
for the first month or two.  This has a success rate of about 50% (based 
on the cuttings I rooted this spring).  You can also put some root 
hormone on the cutting and put it in either water or vermiculite (I was too 
lazy to try that this spring and was happy with my 50% success rate!) 
 
3.  Take root cuttings.  In the spring (or fall if you want to dry the 
rhizomes) dig up and cut off a section of root about 4 to 6 inches long. 
Try to find a piece that has lots of "eyes".  Plant these just like you 
planted your original rhizomes. 
 
4.  I have also read (in David Beach's book) that you can cut off a long 
section of the mature vine and bury it horizontally.  I personally have 
never tried this. 
 
To sum up, hops are like weeds.  They are easy to propagate.  Keep in 
mind that the new transplants will probably not produce abundant 
amounts of hops the first year.  Good Luck! 
 
Brewfully Deadicated 
 
MC        :{P}   <----Hopus headus maximoso  (my scientific name!) 
 

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From: "Nickerson, Sam" <SamN at broc.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 16:01:33 -0400
Subject: Shiner Bock Recipe?

I had a Shiner Bock the other weekend and was very pleased, Would anyone 
happen to have a great likeness in an all grain recipe? I would greatly 
appreciate the help in cloning this one. Reply to samn at broc.com. 
Thanx, 
Sam Nickerson 
samn at broc.com 

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From: Nate Apkon <nmapkon at sprynet.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 15:05:45 -0700
Subject: Re: Mashing In

I've had good results by adding water to cover my false bottom, and then 
adding equal amounts (volumetric) of grain & water, alternating grain & 
water to my tun. 
 
Saves a lot of stirring time and energy and I get a good mix. 
 
My guesss is that it doesn't matter a whole lot as long as you get a good 
 mix. 

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From: JDPils at aol.com
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 16:26:13 -0400
Subject: Maintaining brewing styles

I have recently read several criticisms of the big breweries on HBD. 
 Miller's new beer and Coor's for example.  First, how clever someone is at 
Miller to use the scrap hops from oil extraction.  It results in a 20% 
reduction in hop usage if the "RED' label is made one in five batches.  Maybe 
if we all drink tons of it (I rather drink the sludge from my fermenter), 
Miller will be forced to use more hops rather than less.  On the other hand I 
have enjoyed some of the new Anheuser Busch specialty beers such as Faust and 
Munchner. 
 
While the digest is discussing the short comings of the large breweries we 
should not stop here.  Recently I have had several poor examples of beer 
styles from brew pubs and small microbreweries.  These endanger the styles 
they represent. 
 
Hefeweizen is a good example.  First where is the efervesence, hints of 
clove, bannana, and lemon flavors in a Pyramid or Widmer?  Why is a true 
German Hefeweizen cloudy but still transluscent but these on draft murky 
enough to dim a flashlight?  The only lemon flavor is from the wedge on top 
of the glass.  Also why are these beers so whimpy versus the German's at 5.5% 
alc by vol.?  While we cannot do much to change what most Americans now 
beleive to be Hefewiezen we can certainly correct others. 
 
Several mis - represented examples I have recently tasted at local breweries 
or pubs are: 
 
1) Cask Conditioned Ale - Many places serve this warm and dead flat whereas 
it should be mildly carbonated through natural fermetnation and at cellar 
temperature.  The latter tastes like my ales at bottling on a 75F day. 
 
2) Alt Beer - I recently had an Alt beer as cloudy as one of those wanna-be 
Hefeweizen's.  This is totally unacceptable as these beers get their 
crispness from a cold aging process. 
 
3) Bock beer - Served with carbonation levels of an English Real Ale.  When 
asked how Iiked this beer I replied very well except the cabonation was too 
low.  The response was this is how its suppose to be! (so much for the 
traditional German brewery).  I really did enjoy the flavor of this beer and 
would have purchased a half gallon to go, but who is going to drink a flat 
bock? 
 
4) Grant's 50th Anniversery Ale (This deserves specific mention as its the 
worst beer I have ever purchased.)  This ale cost $4.59 for 22oz. and was 
contaminated with some nasty medicine flavors. 
 
 
The point of my posting is we as homebrewers must continue to educate our 
friends and commercial establishments to brew and serve beers within their 
proclaimed styles or they will be over clouded like Hefeweizen.  If the style 
guidelines cannot be followed then I'm sure there is some clever marketeer 
who can create a new name which if successful it will become a new style of 
beer. 
 
Prosit!! 
 
Jim Dunlap 
Woodinville, WA 
 

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From: JDPils at aol.com
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 16:27:06 -0400
Subject: Oktoberfest Recipes

he recipes for Octoberfest are perplexing to me.  I agree with George 
DePiro's assesment that toasted malt flavor versus carmel is should make up 
the malt profile.  However in George Fix's book on Vienna Marzen and 
Oktoberfest his "Traditional Octoberfest Recipe uses German Crystal and 
English Carmel malts and no Munich.  I have seen other recipe's like this and 
cannot accept them.  To me a good Marzen/Octoberfest should have a low to 
moderate amount of Light Munich Malt. 
 
Does anyone else in the brewing collective able to shed some light on this? 
 
Jim Dunlap 
Woodinville WA 

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From: DEBOLT BRUCE <bdebolt at dow.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 96 13:33:08 -0400
Subject: Liberty Malt SS kettles with valve

Last week was on vacation in Seattle and visited the Liberty Malt Supply. 
I noticed some nicely priced 304 stainless steel pots with a welded ball 
valve on the bottom.  The 8 gallon was $129 and the 15 gallon $159 (made in 
Italy I believe).  It appeared that the whole bottom of the pot had been 
welded on, although the finish looked good. 
 
One concern was that the valve is very close to the bottom of the pot, 
making it more difficult to avoid carrying hot break over.  Another was the 
integrity of the valve seal, being so close to the pot bottom.  The store 
attendent said he just tipped the pot away from the valve before draining 
and didn't have any problems with the valve getting too hot. 
 
Has anyone tried these?  The prices seemed very reasonable for a pot with a 
valve included.  No affiliation, etc. 
 
TIA, 
Bruce DeBolt 
bdebolt at dow.com 
 

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From: "Ed J. Basgall" <edb at chem.psu.edu>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 96 16:57:51 EDT
Subject: Addendum to Aeration made easy

Well, wouldn't ya know it.  I guess I was misled by a commercial 
brewing magazine no less.  My thanks to Al for pointing out my error. 
 
In my future aerations I will add a sterile cotton plug as a filter 
into the air line as it comes out of my pump.  I know that works 
for cell culture and microbiology applications.  I wonder how many 
contaminating organisms can float around and for how long in a small bubble 
without hitting the sides?  Sounds like a thesis project. 
 
My appologies for misleading the collective.  Thanks again Al. 
 
Ed Basgall 
SCUM 
(State College Underground Maltsters) 

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From: Bob Bessette/PicTel
Date: 20 Aug 96 16:56:59 EDT
Subject: Berr in Greece?

Fellow HBDers, 
 I know that someone out there will have an answer for me. I am heading to 
Greece (Mykonos, Santorini, and Athens) for 2 weeks in 2 weeks and would like 
to know if there is any reasonable semblance of decent beer available there. I 
am told that Amstel and a couple of Greek bottled beers are available. Is there
the concept of brewpubs in Greece. Any help would be appreciated. My gut feel 
is that I may have to stick to Ouzo...Please send private email to 
bbessett at pictel.com... 
 
Cheers, 
Bob Bessette 
 

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From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 18:13:31 -0400
Subject: Amylase Powder

Some talk has gone on about using amylase powder in brewing.  Thought I'd 
toss in my 0.14 pesos. 
 
At one point I surmised that perhaps adding amylase in a steeping or 
partial-mash situation would somehow enhance the process, especially if the 
overall diastastic power of the grist was low (e.g., when there is little or 
no pale or wheat malt).  While this may be true, it was later pointed out to 
me that "amylase powder" contains no alpha amylase.  Also, even a pinch of 
the stuff is a lot, so what you'll likely end up with is a well-converted but 
very thin (highly-fermentable) wort.  Pretty much the opposite of what you're 
usually after when steeping/partial mashing.  I suppose it might have some 
use in "mashing" corn or rice or other enzyme-challenged starch, if the 
intent is to "thin" the character or simply to add fermentable sugar.  If 
this is the goal, do it separately from the "main mash" and denature the 
amylase before combining, by raising the temperature above ~170F. 
 
Enzymes are also used to "unstick" stuck mashes.  Essentially the enzyme 
attacks the remaining larger sugars, making them an easier target for the 
yeast.  The lazy yeast, having a new, simpler food source suddenly made 
available, figure what the hell and come back to life.  Downside, again, is 
that these larger sugars contribute greatly to the body of the beer, so the 
end result is often a very dry beer relative to what it might have been 
otherwise.  Kevin Hass has an interesting post on the topic at The Brewery 
(http://alpha.rollanet.org/library.html) should you wish to investigate the 
use of enzymes in stuck mashes. 
 
Ken Schwartz 
KennyEddy at aol.com 
http://users.aol.com.kennyeddy 
 
"We are unable to announce the weather.  We depend on weather reports from 
the airport, which is closed, due to the weather.  Whether we will be able to 
give you the weather tomorrow will depend on the weather."  -- from the 
_Arab_News_ 

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From: "Kirk Harralson" <kirkh at mail.clark.net>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 18:44:35 +0000
Subject: Burners & Converted Kegs

I had just decided that the 35K ring-type propane burner was exactly 
what I needed to move my brewing operation outdoors when I noticed 
that the diameter of the one I was going to order was only 13 inches. 
Since I am planning to use converted 15.5 gallon kegs, I need a wide, 
stable base, and I don't think 13" is going to be sufficient.  I know 
the best solution is to build a two or three tier tower and mount 
burners accordingly, but I am somewhat construction-challenged (can't 
weld, etc.).  I will probably contract that work sometime in the 
future.  For now, I thought a couple of kegs and propane burners 
would be a good interim step.  Does anyone know a SIMPLE way to make 
this work, or should I go with the 160K - 200K jet type burners that 
have a wider base for the kegs to sit on?  I was also looking at the 
false bottom/drain setup by Stainless in Seattle advertised in BT. 
Does anyone have any experience with these?  Are they worth the 
money?  All opinions are welcome, public or private. 
 
Thanks, 
Kirk Harralson 
Bel Air, Maryland 

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From: CHRISTOPHER DIIORIO <cd8701 at acc.msmc.edu>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 19:05:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Hazelnut Beer

All, 
 
Three quick questions: 
 
Number one: 
I have been brewing for almost a year and have yet to switch to all grain 
(mostly because I'm very happy with my current process and results). 
Although I do experiment with different methods using specialty grains, 
fruits and herbs, I mostly rely on collecting recipes from others. 
Unfortunately, most of the really good recipes I find are for all grain. 
Not being all that scientifically inclined, I am wondering if any of you 
know a good ratio for converting an all grain recipe to extract.  I 
usually make 5 gallon batches but can make up to 20 at a time. 
 
Number two: 
I am interested in making a hazelnut brown ale.  My wife tried one at the 
Sam Adams Brewhouse in Boston and loved it.  Not having tried it myself, I 
don't know much about it.  Does anyone know more about this brew?  I'd be 
interested in opinions, suggestions and/or recipes that may help me make a 
batch for her. 
 
Number three: 
I plan to make a cinnamon beer for the Holiday's.  Any help toward a 
good cinnamon recipe would also be appreciated. 
 
Thanks in advance for all your help.  Private E-mail may be best, but 
helpful posts work too! 
 
Brewingly yours, 
 
Chris DiIorio 
 
Take your pick: 
cd8701 at acc.msmc.edu   or 
diiorio at acc.msmc.edu  or 
cdiiorio at sprynet.com 
 

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From: Ian Smith <rela!isrs at netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 17:45:09 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Infection ?

I recently brewed an IPA. I used a filter to remove chlorine/cloramides 
etc. but after 2 weeks in the secondary and a dry hop it tastes 
medicinal sorta like phenol/phenolic - does anyone know what this is (it 
has happened before) and if so how do I prevent it ? It is very difficult 
to describe a taste but I notice that after 10 minutes in a glass the 
taste dissipates a little bit - so it must be volatile. 
 
Cheers 
Ian Smith 
isrs at rela.uucp.netcom.com 

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From: "Dave Hinkle" <Dave.Hinkle at aexp.com>
Date: 20 Aug 1996 14:20:05 -0700
Subject: Roast vs. Toast / The Black Rice

Al K said: 
 
"I, personally, would say that "toasty" is a white bread crust flavour 
and thus synonymous with "biscuity."  On the other hand, "roasty," to me, 
would have a slightly burnt component, like black bread crust.  This is 
just semantics, however, and you know how difficult it is to put flavours 
into words.  ..." 
 
Al, so you've never had burnt toast?  But seriously, I generally agree with 
your analogies.  If you consider that in culinary terminology, 'roasting' is 
using dry high heat for a long time to cook &/or dry something generally that 
has a high moisture content to start with such as meat, potatoes, green coffee 
beans, etc.  'Toasting', on the other hand, is using dry high heat for a short 
period of time to dry and crisp something that is already generally low in 
moisture (like bread crumbs, etc.).  But since either can be done to various 
degrees of "doneness", I don't automatically associate 'roasted' with a burnt 
component. 
 
Toasted malt has been kiln dried, then heated in a hot, dry oven.  Roasted 
barley or malt went in the oven still wet (green).  My analogy would be to 
think of coffee beans or peanuts when you think of roasted, and think of ...er 
...whatsit ...um toast when you think of toasted (but not BURNT toast :).  But 
it's hard to describe something based on taste/smell alone that is a reflection
of the processing.  Here's one for you to think about:  If black patent is a 
roasted malt, is Munich malt high-kilned, or light-roasted? 
 
Also, this got me thinking (uh oh):  I've seen recipies and have made batches 
that called for either unmalted barley and/or black-roasted barley.  But has 
anyone ever used  toasted or light roasted barley (not malt)?  You know, 
something inbetween?  What about other adjuncts?  I got a bag of "black rice" 
in an Asian food store, and it was actually whole rice (husks intact) that had 
been roasted until mostly black.  Might make an interesting experiment to cook 
some of this stuff and add it to a mash at 10%.  What do you all think?  Would 
this make Miller Lite Stout (doesn't THAT sound appealing)? Do rice hulls have 
significant tannins that would make boiling a bad idea?  I would guess not, 
since you need to boil or steam the stuff to eat it (I tried it, it tasted 
pretty good - very nutty).  Could I just mill the stuff and add the raw black 
rice grist to the mash?   Should I just eat it (can you say FIBER)?  Should I 
pretend I never saw the stuff? 
 
Dave Hinkle 
too much time on my hands 
 

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