---

   FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
        Shawn Steele, Digest Janitor
        Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!

Contents:
  COPS vs. Homebrewers!  Watch Out! (Lee Bollard)
  Lactose & Fruit Beers ((MR BILL STOUGHTON))
  powdered amylase in mash (Steve Alexander)
  Scientific  Books on Brewing wanted - help (Steve Alexander)
  Protein Suspension (Steve Alexander)
  Botulism - infected grain. (Steve Alexander)
  GABF A Financial Bust (Rob Moline)
  Jet vs Ring (Kirk R Fleming)
  SS kettles with valve (BAke)
  Botulism (BOBKATPOND at aol.com)
  Third try of admission.. reject or cancel? ((Waymon Witherspoon))
  RE:  Sticking to styles/Oktoberfest recipes ((George De Piro))
  Re: Burners & Converted Kegs (RUSt1d?)
  Starch balling? Not here! ("P.S. Edwards")
  Shiner recipe (Dale Smith)
  Re: doughing in and Starch balling (Don Trotter)
  Announcing the Dayton Beerfest Competition (zabarnic at saber.udayton.edu)
  Splitting kegged beer? (KRAUSG)
  Dough in/Ofest (Jim Busch)
  Re: Tollhouse Porter IBUs/OG; Shoulda brewed lagers ("Pat Babcock")
  Thunder Mountain Brew-Off (Kirk Johnson)

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lee Bollard <leeb at iea.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 18:10:15 -0700
Subject: COPS vs. Homebrewers!  Watch Out!

> and to top it all off, the camera panned in on a  copy 
> of Papizian's _New Complete Joy of Hombrewing_!!!!!!!  I couldn't believe my 
> eyes! 
 
I also saw this episode of COPS some time ago. Unbelievable! Everything 
that Eric said about that program is true. Scary actually. I think the 
arrest took place in Tacoma, Washington. 
 
The "perpetrator" had committed a crime, his small marijuana plants 
growing in the closet... but all the discussion was about his so-called 
STILL! People could get the wrong idea after watching this episode then 
seeing the gear we beer-brewers use in every-day brewing! 
 
The funniest part was the shot of TNCJOHB... incredible... 
 
- -- 
- --------  Lee Bollard   leeb at iea.com  -------- 

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From: ZXRF66A at prodigy.com (MR BILL STOUGHTON)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 21:19:03, -0500
Subject: Lactose & Fruit Beers

- -- [ From: Bill Stoughton * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- 
 
Al wrote: 
 
> Milk sugar (lactose) is not fermentable and will not make your beer 
> thinner.  It will make it sweeter and thicker. 
 
During the recent discussions on adding fruit it was mentioned that 
residual sweetness was desirable in a fruit beer to accentuate the 
fruit flavor, and that the addition of crystal malt would supply this 
sweetness.  Could lactose also be used to increase sweetness, and thus 
improve the fruit character?  If so, at what stage should it be added 
to the brewing process? 
 
Bill Stoughton ZXRF66A at prodigy.com 
 
 

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From: Steve Alexander <stevea at clv.mcd.mot.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 22:10:09 -0400
Subject: powdered amylase in mash

 
Keith Royster writes ... 
 
>Also, nobody responded to my recent question regarding the pros/cons 
>of adding amylase in powdered form to my mash. I assume that it 
>won't really make much difference on well modified malts with strong 
>enzyme concentrations, but what about other grains such as wheat? 
 
I've seen analyses of wheat malt that show higher diastatic power than 
typical pale barley malt.  Perhaps you were referring to unmalted 
wheat.  Generally unmalted grains can contribute a fair bit of 
beta-amyalse to a mash, but no alpha-amylase. 
 
I have seen graphs from commercial enzyme producers indicating higher 
fermentability from pale malt by adding either extra BA or AA enzyme. 
YMMV.  This *WAS* from an enzyme vendor. Take it with a grain of salt. 
The graph showed fermentability rising to around 90% apparent 
attenuation with big additions of AA !! 
 
Powdered alpha-amylase will have decidedly different temperature 
characteristics than barley AA.  As I recall fungal source amylases 
have lower temperature stability and bacterial source AA has 
significantly higher temperature stability (might be the other way 
around) and the differences are significant. 
 
Also amylases from various sources produce somewhat different amounts of 
various sugars and dexrtins.  For example Barley BA does a poor job of 
breaking malto-triose into maltose + a glucose.  BA from some other 
sources do a much better job of this.  It's called enzyme specificity - 
enzymes of the same general class preferentially cataylse different 
reactions differently.  I've seen some data in Gerald Reeds book that 
indicates that AA from different sources produce quite different 
amounts of the various dextrins.  This can obviously affect flavor 
fermentability and body. 
 
>Will it throw my enzyme concentrations (alpha VS beta) out of whack? 
>I find it hard to beleive that nobody had an opinion on it, so I'm 
>assuming it was missed during the HBD mailer problems a few weeks 
>ago.  If anyone does have any thoughts on the matter, I'd love to 
>hear them. TIA! 
 
Some graphs I've been closely studying from M&B Sci (fig  9.13 I 
believe) lead me to think that as the BA to AA ratio of a mash drops, 
the fermentability drops only slowly until the BA:AA ratio gets down 
to around 2:1.  As the ratio drops further the fermentability drops 
much more quickly. I believe that this  graph was made with constant 
amount of AA and declining amounts of BA.  BTW - pale malt has a BA:AA 
ratio around 6:1, pale-ale malt, kilned at a high temp has a BA:AA 
ratio around 4:1. Raw grain adjuncts may contribute as much as 40% of 
their 'malted form' beta-amylase activity. 
 
The question is *WHY* do you want to add foreign amylases to your mash? 
 
If you are using a high concentration of unmalted grain, like barley, 
wheat, rye, sorghum or triticale, then you should expect the BA 
content to be low but probably no less than 30 or 40% of normal, and 
the AA content of the raw grain will be zero.  Adding extra AA might 
make sense in this case, because the mash time required would be quite 
long since you rely only on AA from a small pale barley malt addition. 
You should eventually end up with wort of normal fermentability I 
believe. 
 
Of course if you are trying to mash some other non-grain starch then 
all bets are off regarding enzyme content. 
 
If you are trying to get maximal fermentability then extra AA would 
also be useful, but the resulting beer may not be very desireable. The 
unfermentable content of beer provides a lot of the body and possibly 
some flavor. 
 
If maximal fermentability is the key (flavor be damned) then follow 
the whiskey distillers method.  Even with very high adjunct load 
whiskey manufacturers bring the very thin mash up to ~50C or 55C and 
then allow the mash to cool to pitching temperatures.  They then pitch 
right into the mash - grist and all with a highly attenuative strain 
of yeast/lactobacteria or both. The mash/beer/wort (?) continues to 
enzymatically produce new fermentables even as it ferments. 
 
Conclusion: 
 
Generally speaking I personally wouldn't bother with non-grain 
amylases when making high quality beer unless you anticipate a serious 
mashing problem that would severely limit fermentability.  The 
resulting wort when using foreign amylases will have different spectum 
of sugars and dextrins and this shift will certainly have repercussion 
in the resulting beer's body, possibly flavor, and even in the amount 
and types of yeast metabolic by-products (fusel alcohols, esters, 
VDKs). 
 
Experiment please, but be aware that it will take a lot of trial and 
error or research to learn to use these amylases in producing 'great 
beer'. 
 
Steve Alexander 
 
 
 
 

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From: Steve Alexander <stevea at clv.mcd.mot.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 22:21:18 -0400
Subject: Scientific  Books on Brewing wanted - help

 
Does anyone have an opinion on 'Brewing Science' from Academic Press, 
by Pollack(sp?).  Academic press has many fine books in their food 
science series, but I'm not anxious to part with $150 buck unless this 
is a *great* book. 
 
I also came across a reference to volume 4 of a multi-volume book 
called "Brewing Science and Technology" in a 1995 Journal of the 
Institute of Brewing (a british journal).  I have no publisher or 
author or other info.  It's probably british and probably fairly 
recent.  It was referenced in several places in an article discussing 
answers to the most recent Master Brewers examination - (which BTW 
looks like a pretty tough test).  Basically it looks like this book 
set contains many of the answers.  Does anyone have info on this one ? 
 
Other books ?  "Malting and Brewing Science" is well known with a 
second edition around 1981.  Is anyone aware of better newer books 
along this line ? 
 
Steve Alexander 
 

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From: Steve Alexander <stevea at clv.mcd.mot.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 22:52:27 -0400
Subject: Protein Suspension

 
Karel J. Chaloupka writes ... 
>I just brewed an Octoberfest beer yesterday and got a lot of protein 
>suspension. I used around 9 lbs of Pilsnet Malt & 1.5 lbs of assorted 
>crystal malts. I mash in at 158F and sparged at 172F. I also used irish moss 
>at the end of the boil. I've never really have had this problem before. Any 
>suggestions on why this happened? 
 
With such a high initial temperature you could potentially not have 
degraded the proteins sufficiently.  The other possibility is that at 
this very high saccharification temp, you got incomplete conversion 
as your enzymes went kaput - and now you have starch in suspension. 
 
Hard to say - but I'd guess starch if you haven't been having problems 
with this pilsner malt above in say other 149F to 158F infusion mashes. 
(where there isn't much protein breakdown either). 
 
Since you haven't had problems before and you have in all probability 
used these malts before - look at your brewing notes and see what is 
different.  My guess is that mash temperature and time varied from 
your typical mash - No ?  These are the culprits. 
 
BTW - I've just read an article indicating that irish moss is 
virtually useless at pH values below around 5.3.  You may want to 
check wort pH from the boiler before deciding whether to bother with 
the irish moss. 
 
The other possibility is that Mars, the god of war and october is 
punishing you for not using any Vienna or Munich malt in your 
'octoberfest' beer.  What *were* you thinking about Karel ? 
 
Steve Alexander 
 

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From: Steve Alexander <stevea at clv.mcd.mot.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 00:41:21 -0400
Subject: Botulism - infected grain.

 
Mark Marsula writes ... 
>Botulinum bacteria will not be destroyed by boiling!  Botulinum spores 
>become active in low-acid, oxygen-free conditions and produce a toxin that 
>causes botulism poisoning which can be fatal.  Pressure cookers are used 
>in home canning to reach a tempurature of 240F for that reason.  A high pH 
>(2 - 3.5)  will also prevent botulinum spores from becoming active. 
 
Uhh well - I don't want to re-ignite the sanitize sterilize debate, 
but boiling will drastically reduce the number of viable botilinum - 
but may not be sufficient to prevent an infection in canned goods 
stored for many months.  There are some nice curves in M&B Sci I 
believe showing viable cells on a temperature time graph.  Any book on 
food processing/infection issues shows the same graph.  An hour boil 
should knock out virtually every cell - but viable spores may remain 
unless you use a pressure cooker.  I don't think we care about the 
spores, we don't even care if a few cells survive in wort. 
 
Eating or drinking botulism cells or spores isn't dangerous, but the 
toxin they produce is extremely dangerous, potent and deadly.  The 
toxin is rendered harmless well below the boiling point. 
 
I don't know where Mark got the pH 2 to 3.5 figure, but this is far 
more acid than many of the canned fruits which do not require the 
pressure cooking canning techniques.  BTW fermented beer has a pH 
down near the 3.5 figure - far too low for the spores to get a start. 
 
Another point - botulism live primarily off of protein, not 
carbohydrates.  They used to historically be a big problem in canned 
meats which have plenty of protein and low acidity. 
 
Botulism is a very common organism in soil. If wort could support 
botulism colonies, we'd certainly have heard of homebrewing deaths 
from botulism by now.  HB wort is certainly infected by every other 
microbe in town - from my reading of HBD. 
 
My conclusion is that the probability of getting botulism poisoning by 
drinking beer from infected grain is essentially zero.  On the other 
hand there are some Ergot grain funguses that produce LSD like 
by-products (which some HBDers might actually prefer).  There is also 
one grain fungus which seems to produce a carcinogenic by-product, 
which causes pancreatic cancer - usually quite deadly.  These are 
probably both harmless after the boil but I wouldn't count on it. 
Particularly the carcinogenic possibility. 
 
I agree with other posters - forget the infected grain for flavor 
reasons at least. 
 
Steve Alexander 
 

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From: Rob Moline <brewer at kansas.net>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 22:54:44 -0500
Subject: GABF A Financial Bust

                        The Jethro Gump Report 
Trying to do some catching up, but saw the stuff on the GABF. I know for a 
fact that the GABF is a financial loser for the last 2 years. I believe this 
has to do with the costs associated with renting Currigan Hall, but as a 
brewer, the cost to send one beer to the GABF in '94 was 55 bucks, '95 was 
65 bucks, and this year it's 105 for a regular slot and 125 for one of the 
special anniversary slots. 
        I am in the process of moving my office back home, (gotta be 
prepared, ya know!), so am unable to locate the exact figures, but will 
vouch for the fact that they don't make a heap on the deal. 
Cheers! 
Jethro 
 
Cheers! 
Rob Moline 
Little Apple Brewing Company 
Manhattan, Kansas 
 
"The more I know about beer, the more I realize I need to know more about 
beer!"
 

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From: Kirk R Fleming <flemingk at usa.net>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 22:15:07 +0100
Subject: Jet vs Ring

In #2153 "Gregory, Guy J." <GGRE461 at ecy.wa.gov> responded to Chuck and 
Grace Burkins <burkins at oa.net> who asks: 
 
> Whats your impression of the jet style King Kooker burners? 
 
I made two jet burners using 6" long water pipe nipples (1 1/2" NPT, I think) 
and they have the advantages of being easy to make, and very cheap to make if 
you're using natural gas. 
 
> Has anyone doing all grain actually scorched some wort, or is that a 
> momism? I was sent the jet style in error, (miscommunication 
 
Well, if anyone says "Jet burners scorch the wort" that's a generalization. As 
with many generalizations, it's definitely true in specific cases, but not 
generally so. With 50 or so batches, I've scorched once, and it was very minor 
and it was in the mash tun, not the kettle. 
 
> My guess is that the radial style is more efficient 
 
*This* may be a momism.  I don't know, but I think jet burners are real gas 
hogs.  Maybe BTU per cu ft of gas is worse, or maybe they simply deliver 
energy to the the pot less efficiently, can't say. 
 
> gives better control. 
Well, that's pretty much true, except you *can* turn jet burners down pretty 
low
but then it's pretty clear they aren't burning too efficiently. 
 
>...the single jet seems to work just fine for me. And, it sounds like an F-15.
 
More like an F-4, I think. 
 
> Temp raising for mashing control I accomplish by removing the mashtun from 
> the heat altogether....my brewpartner does the same with his ring burner. 
 
I burn wide open (MIL Thrust) for 60 seconds, which raises the mash temp very 
close to 1F, then reduce the recirc rate to minimum for the next 8-10 minutes, 
during which time the mash temp drops by 1F, then repeat. Perfectly observable,
controllable, and repeatable.  This could be automated with a residential 
furnace gas valve controlled electronically, but I haven't done it yet. 
 
I was told by someone here that Metal Fusion, the company that makes the ring 
burners for one of the Cajun Cooker type burners, sells the ring burner 
assembly for $15.  I think this is the way to go if you don't need the stand. 
 
KRF Colorado Springs 

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From: BAke <bakesbit at aol.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 23:02:43 -0700
Subject: SS kettles with valve

The kettles at Liberty are imported from a company called Marchisio 
in Italy by a company called Brewmaster in California and resold to 
homebrew shops around the country with a 100% markup!!! These "pots" 
come in many sizes (up to 1600 litre/ over 400 gal) in Italy but only 
the 30, 50, and 100 litre versions are brought here. The "pots" are 
actually olive oil vats that were NOT intended for boiling but rather 
for bulk olive oil storage. The Italian company makes a stand for them 
so that once filled they are high enough to hold a container under the 
tap,this is why there are no handles since they weren't meant to be 
moved. 
 
The pot is 304 stainless but the valve is nickel plated plain steel 
which will rust with time. Your best bet is to buy a nickel plated brass 
or better a stainless valve and a short 2 in. or so threaded piece of SS 
pipe to replace the original valve. That way you have a true taper fit 
that won't leak and won't corrode on you either. Also be careful of the 
welded seam up the side and around the bottom, watching for cracks, 
especially where heat gets near it at the bottom. 
 
Good luck with yours! 

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From: BOBKATPOND at aol.com
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 08:00:07 -0400
Subject: Botulism

There are two problems with botulism, the spores and the toxin. The spores at 
stable at 100C for several hours.  They are killed by moist heat at 120C in 
30 minutes. The toxin is what kills you and it is destroyed by 80C in 30 
minutes. (From Princlples of Internal Medicine text). 
 
I doubt that a puffy bag of malt has any botulism in it.  If it does that 
plant that produced it has major problems because all their malt is probably 
infected.  The most likely explaination is wild yeast. If it was free use it 
and see what happens, the taste will tell. 
 
Bob Morris 

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From: mwithers at atc.boeing.com (Waymon Witherspoon)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 05:05:38 -0700
Subject: Third try of admission.. reject or cancel?

 
I sent this in last week and the week before but it has not appeared.  I 
am using my alternate mail address to see what is going on.  If this does 
not appear, I will be canceling out due to CENSORSHIP... 
 
____________________________________________________________________________ 
 
I sent this in earlier this week but it has not appeared.  Is this 
too far off toipic that i get <CANCELED> or what?  Because I brew 
beer, wine, mead and megathins this is not off topic to me.. 
 
- ------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Ok, about 2/3rd of my hop crop is in.  The last batch I made 
the mistake of putting them in the oven to dry.  The oven is 
an old style (with pilot) for about 2.5 hrs at low heat.  Talk 
about crispy dry.  They smelled very grassy/citrusy (I have Cascade 
growing).  Next time, back to the Attic with tme.  So far picked 
4.5 OZ. 
 
Next.............  I need a wine pres.  Anyone in the So. Jersey 
/Piladelphia area have an old one to get rid of?  I cannot afford 
a new one.  Even if someone has turned it into a planter and 
the wood is rotting out, I can fix that.  Email or post here to 
tell me... 
 
Thanks 
 
Mark Witherspoon 
witherspoonm at pgate.he.boeing.com 
mwithers at atc.boeing.com 
 
"Re-engineering is like performing an apendectomy on yourself. Your chances of 
survival are slim and it really hurts, but you gain the confidence to go after 
something bigger next time ... like that red pumping thing." - Scott Adams 

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From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 08:29:52 -0700
Subject: RE:  Sticking to styles/Oktoberfest recipes

     Jim Dunlap writes about U.S. micros not sticking to style guidelines. 
     Well, it's easy for them to do that because the majority of people 
     here (U.S.) don't know the styles. 
 
     He complains about American HefeWeizen, especially.  The single 
     biggest reason that they lack the character of a true Bavarian Weizen 
     is the yeast strain.  Wheat, to my palate, does little more than 
     lighten the taste of beer.  The yeast used in Bavaria adds all the 
     distinctive flavors you love: clove, banana, vanilla, etc. 
 
     Bavarian HefeWeizen can be just as cloudy as American versions. 
     Paulaner from a keg, or with the sediment from a bottle poured into 
     the glass, is quite cloudy.  Part of the reason it may be a bit less 
     cloudy than it's American counterparts is because it is filtered to 
     remove the unique, poorly flocculating Weizen yeast.  A highly 
     flocculent lager yeast is then added for bottle conditioning. 
 
     In Germany consumers are much more educated about the beer they drink. 
     If a beer is labeled "HefeWeizen," they expect a beer of at least 50% 
     wheat malt with yeast in the bottle and the characteristic 
     banana/clove flavors. 
 
     I think it's cool that American brewers are creating some novel styles 
     by broadly interpreting the classics, but they shouldn't label them in 
     such a way that consumers are confused.  I personally stay away from 
     ALL American wheat beers because the majority are as interesting as 
     Miller (yes, I've had a FEW that are interesting, but too few)! 
 
     Alt beer?  How many Americans even have an idea of what this is, much 
     less had a real one! 
 
     Jim is correct in saying that only education of consumers will change 
     this. 
     ------------------ 
     About Oktoberfest formulations, the Fix book is confusing to me, also. 
     Perhaps it is out-of-date in it's assessment of the availability of 
     high quality Munich malt.  I don't see how one can obtain the proper 
     toasty character without Munich malt.  Crystal malts are going to give 
     the beer a Scotch ale like caramel quality. 
 
     In his book he stresses that the recipes were tried in contests and 
     adjusted according to the results.  After tasting the Oktoberfest 
     beers that were contending for the semifinal round of the BBC World 
     homebrew contest, I realized that just because a beer wins doesn't 
     mean it's right! 
 
     My own Marzen was NOT toasty enough for my palate, nor did it 
     attenuate as much as I would have liked.  My guess is that it was 
     closer to style then the other competitors, and there were COMPETENT 
     judges who knew this (not always the case, especially at regional 
     comps.  Case in point: Milo-Marzen #2 scored a 22 at a contest just 
     weeks before winning the Nationals!). 
 
     If you have a good palate it is best to judge your creations against 
     the world classics, and take judges opinions with a grain of salt, 
     even when they LIKE your beer! 
 
     By the way, perhaps Jim just typed his thought backwards, but I think 
     that you need a lot of Munich malt in the grain bill to achieve the 
     proper character, and little or no crystal. 
 
     Sorry if this turned preachy! 
 
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY) 

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From: RUSt1d? <rust1d at li.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 09:26:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Burners & Converted Kegs

>Does anyone know a SIMPLE way to make 
>this work, or should I go with the 160K - 200K jet type burners that 
>have a wider base for the kegs to sit on? 
 
How about one of those 4 way tire irons? It could be wired to the top 
of the burner. You know the kind I mean, shaped like a plus sign with 
four different size sockets... 
 
>I was also looking at the 
>false bottom/drain setup by Stainless in Seattle advertised in BT. 
>Does anyone have any experience with these?  Are they worth the 
>money?  All opinions are welcome, public or private. 
 
I would also like to know of other sources of false bottoms. Send 
addresses/phone numbers to me please. Kirk, could you send Stainless'? 
John Varady 
Boneyard Brewing Co. 
"Ale today, Gone tomorrow" 
 

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From: "P.S. Edwards" <pedwards at iquest.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 08:49:02 -0500
Subject: Starch balling? Not here!

Al writes: 
 
>The other reason that we would prefer to not add the malt to the hot 
>liquor is because of the enzymes.  Let's say you are starting with 180F 
>water and plan to hit a target temp of 158F.  You add a pound of malt 
>to 10 quarts of hot water.  Stir till most of the clumps break up.  Now 
>the water (and all the enzymes from that first pound of grist) are at, 
>say 176F. You add another pound, stir; temp is 174F... Only when you >add the 
final pound and stir will you reach 158F.
 
Wow, you start w/ 180 deg water?  In my Gott cooler, to hit a 158 deg 
mash temp with 20 lbs of grain and 20 qts mash water, I only need 174 
deg water. 
 
I'm an advocate of adding grain to mash water for the same reason Jim 
Busch states: easier to measure the mash water in my mash-tun (a 
10-gallon Gott cooler with copper tube manifold).  I heat all my mash & 
sparge water in an insulated & electrically heated 1/2 bbl keg, and I 
usually have put in more water than I think I'll need.  To see how much 
I've drained out if I were to add water to grist would require me to 
either add a flowmeter in line with the drain or add a calibrated sight 
tube to the tank.  Call me lazy.  Night before I brew, I fill the tank, 
plug the heating element into a heavy-duty 110 VAC timer, and set it to 
come on about 4 am.  When I get down to the brewery the next morning at 
about 7:30 or 8:00, I've got 14 gallons of approximately 180 deg water 
ready to go.  (My add'l approx 2 gallons of mash-out water is boiled in 
a stockpot on my burner while the mash is progressing) 
 
I pre-heat the tun by adding the mash water at 180 (+/-) deg F and then 
let it cool to my target temp, then mix in grain. 
 
I add about 1/2  or 3/4 of the grain, stir (using a long-handled 
restaurant sized potato masher as a rake), then add the rest of the 
grain.  The potato masher is lifted up & down in the mash as I go to 
break up any clumps.  No problemo. I used to do the iodine test for 
conversion, but since my mashes never fail to convert, I stopped. 
Starch haze hasn't ever been a problem for me. 
 
And as a long time bread-maker, I usually add flour to liquid in my 
Kitchenaid mixer w/o a balling problem.  If mixing by hand (when making 
biscuits or something) I do it the other way 'round.  In a mechanized 
mixer like the Kitchenaid, if you put the flour in first, then add 
liquid & turn on mixer (even on slowest setting), it'll toss flour _all_ 
over the place. 
 
So the answers is:  It depends... 
 
- --Paul 

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From: Dale Smith <des at io.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 08:28:01 -0500
Subject: Shiner recipe

Sam, 
  I've used this recipe several times with much success. As you probaly 
know, shiner is a lager. They use lots of Maize in their recipe & not 
very much hops. Overall, it's decent summer beer. It used to be my beer 
of choice until I became a beer snob. They have a new beer out, an 
unfiltered keg conditioned Honey Wheat Wiezen. It's quite nice! 
Anyway here's the recipe I use. It's a bit hoppier & a little darker 
than shiner but quite good. 
 
5 lbs Aamerican Pale Malt  ( Briess ) 
1.5 lbs munich 10L 
1 lb flaked Maize 
1/8 lb black Patent 
1 oz Centenial hops (bittering) 
1/2 oz Libertry hops (finishing) 
Wyeast #2178 Lager blend 
 
Mash all grains at 155 degrees for an hour 
boil for an hour 
adding Centenial a start of boil & Liberty after 50 minutes 
cool quickly and pitch yeast 
Since the lager blend is twice as much yeast as normal packs I rarely 
make a starter with this one 
Ferment 2 weeks  at  45 degrees 
rack & ferment for 1 more week  at  40 degrees 
rack into a keg & prime 
set for two more weeks  at  35 degrees 
enjoy!! 
 
Dale Smith 
Austin, Tx. 

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From: Don Trotter <dtrotter at imtn.tpd.dsccc.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 08:55:37 -0500
Subject: Re: doughing in and Starch balling

 
I guessed right when I thought that "starch balling" meant that the 
srain would ball up and not thoroughly mix with the water.  After 
reading a few posts, I have decided that this may not be an issue with 
small mashes of 10 gallons or less in volume.  After reading Jim 
Busches post "Subject: Adding grain to water," Tue, 20 Aug 1996, It 
seems to me that the mash volume may contribute to balling.  As I had 
said in my earlier post, I add the grain to the measured and preheated 
water, in Gott coolers.  I have seen no balling yet, and I always mix 
real well - until the grain is thoroughly soaked - so this would also 
have the effect of breaking up the starch balls.  If this is the only 
problem, then it seems that it really is not a problem. 
 
Of course, there is the question of denaturing the amylase with 
excessive heat, but I see this happening either way. 
 
don 

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From: zabarnic at saber.udayton.edu
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 09:57:13 -0400
Subject: Announcing the Dayton Beerfest Competition

The Dayton Regional Amateur Fermentation Technologists (D.R.A.F.T.) invite you 
to enter and participate in the First Dayton Beerfest Competition, Saturday 
September 21, 1996 in Dayton, OH. This is an AHA and BJCP certified 
competition.
Entries will be accepted from September 1 through September 13. The competition
is open to all non-commercial, home produced beers and meads.  We will not be 
judging cider or sake. 
 
For complete information and on-line entry forms see the competition web page: 
http://alpha.rollanet.org/~draft/daybeerfest.html 
 
We are also looking for BJCP judges. If you are interested in judging see our 
on-line judge entry form at: 
(http://alpha.rollanet.org/~draft/competition/judge.html) or contact our judge 
organizer listed below. 
 
If you have any questions please contact: 
Gary Foskuhl - Competition Organizer - (513) 277-3319 
Bat Bateman - D.R.A.F.T. club president - (513) 845-0572 or 
     rbateman at dayton.csc.com 
Mark Schmitt - Judge Organizer - (513) 236-4857 or 
     102160.1456 at compuserve.com 
 
Thanks, 
 
Steve Zabarnick 
zabarnic at saber.udayton.edu 

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From: KRAUSG <krausg at aa.wl.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 10:27:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Splitting kegged beer?

 
This may sound like sacrilege to avid home brewers, but a friend and I have 
convinced a local distributor to order us a 1/2 barrel of an excellent 
German specialty beer.    We would like to divide this into 4 - 5gal Corny 
Kegs (2 for each).    We have both been kegging our own beer for about 2 
years but have never tried to transfer beer from a commercial keg to our own 
Cornies.   The 1/2 barrel won't fit in either of our frig's and we live too 
far apart to run to the others house for a pint.   Is there a "good?" way to 
do this and will it ultimately effect the beer?   Thanks in advance! 
 
Gene Kraus        krausg at aa.wl.com 
 
Remember:   Never let you morals get in the way of doing what you know is 
right. 
******************************************************************* 
 

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From: Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 10:35:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Dough in/Ofest

Al writes: 
 
<Another problem is that with a fine crush and a thick mash you can lose a 
<significant portion of your extract to balled starch. 
 
I guess it depends on how thick and what is significant.  Another factor 
here is stirring well to mix the grain and water. 
 
<Noonan is probably the most vocal about the risks of balled starch.  See 
<any one of this three books 
 
After I read this, about 5 years ago, I tried it.  Once.  Never again. 
My brew bud at the time thought I was absolutly crazy to try it once. 
 
<The other reason that we would prefer to not add the malt to the hot liquor 
<is because of the enzymes.  Let's say you are starting with 180F water 
<and plan to hit a target temp of 158F.  You add a pound of malt to 10 
<quarts of hot water.  Stir till most of the clumps break up.  Now the 
<water (and all the enzymes from that first pound of grist) are at, say 
<176F.  You add another pound, stir; temp is 174F...  Only when you add 
<the final pound and stir will you reach 158F. 
 
True but an extreme example.  A 22F drop in temp at dough in is pretty 
extreme in my experience.  Also note in all malt beers how much excess 
enzymatic power exists in the malt.  If you are getting a respectable 
yield by adding grain to water then stay with it.  Its not that big a 
difference, much more important is lautering and holding the right temps. 
 
I guess Im not familiar with a Steels masher but if its used in UK 
brewing Im sure Ive seen it and never noticed.  At Victory and many 
other US systems Ive seem, the grain falls down from the grist case 
and is met by a spray of hot water, mixing as they fall into the tun. 
About foundation water, there are many many brewers who mash in the 
kettle and foundation water is a nonissue.  This is how my pilot system 
works as well as Victorys brewhouse.  Its the single infusion UK style 
folks who need to be concerned with foundation water.  (or RIMS...) 
 
Jim writes: 
 
< To me a good Marzen/Octoberfest should have a low to 
<moderate amount of Light Munich Malt. 
 
Vienna and/or some Munich malts.  I recommend a decoction too.  Keep 
the caramel malts to below 10% of grist.  You need some, but dont 
go too heavy. 
 
<Here's one for you to think about:  If black patent is a 
<roasted malt, is Munich malt high-kilned, or light-roasted? 
 
Its high-kilned but not until an extensive drying process is complete 
at relatively low temperatures.  The drying is important to create 
amino acids and sugars that will undergo Maillard reactions to 
produce melanoidins and Strecker aldehydes. 
 
Jim Busch 

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From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 10:40:52 +0500
Subject: Re: Tollhouse Porter IBUs/OG; Shoulda brewed lagers

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager... 
 
Had some e-mail regarding the IBUs and the OG of the Nestle Tollhouse 
Porter recipe. 
 
The IBU issue is an omission on my part! My hop utilization numbers 
are fairly dismal 'cause I'd rather buy more hops than try to 
separate them from the wort while trying to prevent my pumps from 
stopping up! The "designed" IBU value for the recipe is 34 IBUs. 
Adjust your hop quantities accordingly. And I apologize for the 
omission. (Hope noone made a super-hopped batch in the interim! 
 
The OG has to do mostly with efficiency, partly with the unaccounted 
for contribution of the cocoa powder. I get excellent efficiency 
from my Pico system. 32 pgp is typical for my system. Even so, this 
is only 1.057. The additional points (indeed, if my efficiency was 
off that day, part of the 1.057!) are most likey due to the suspended 
cocoa powder. 
 
If you're efficiency is less or more than mine, make the adjustment 
to the base (pale ale) malt. Extract/specialty grain brewers should 
be fine with the numbers cited (and that was 8.5 # LME _OR_ 7.5 DME). 
 
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* 
 
Interesting to see how many others were doing the wild thing over 
the Thanksgiving season rather than brewing lagers! Recent visitors to my 
homepage are already aware of the arrival of Jessica Rose on the 
ninth of this month. This year, rest assured I'll be brewing lagers, 
though... 
 
Congrats to Brother Baby Brewers! 
 
See ya! 
 
Pat Babcock in Canton, Michigan (Western Suburb of Detroit) 
pbabcock at oeonline.com  URL: http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/ 
Babstech Enterprises WWW Authoring Services 
http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/BabsTech.WWW.html 
 

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From: Kirk Johnson <johnson at primenet.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 07:47:57 +0900
Subject: Thunder Mountain Brew-Off

Hi All, 
 
I would like to invite HBD readers and homebrew enthusiasts to participate 
in this years' Thunder Mountain Brew-Off (TMBO) being held in Sierra Vista, 
Arizona on 22 September 1996.  The TMBO is an AHA sanctioned competition 
sponsored by the Southern Arizona Natural Draughters (SAND).  The best of 
show winner will be awarded a $100 gift certificate from The Home Brewery 
and TMBO trophy; 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place winners in each category will be 
awarded ribbons.  Entry information can be obtained from the competition 
chairman, Paul Lachmanek at E-mail: paulgl at primenet.com, phone: (520) 
378-4290 or myself, Kirk Johnson at E-mail: johnson at primenet.com.  All 
requests should include a return address so that we can mail you an entry 
packet.  Competition entries will be submitted in accordance with AHA 
guidelines and are due by 18 September.  The delivery address for entries is 
Thunder Mountain Brew-Off, c/o The Home Brewery, 4641 S. Hwy. 92, Sierra 
Vista, Arizona, 85635.  We can always use a few good men and women:  For 
those of you in the Southern Arizona area who wish to judge or steward 
please contact the competition chairman.  Cheers, Kirk Johnson 
 

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