---

   FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
        Shawn Steele, Digest Janitor
        Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!

Contents:
  Homebrew Seminar Day (Special Events)
  Iodine-based sanitizers ((William S Jones))
  Re: Newbie probability ((Wouter de Waal))
  Brewing Equipment for sale-unfortunately ((WOLFF.R.C-))
  first batch, and second (Eugene Sonn)
  Good Hop Selection (Don Trotter)
  Neg Pressure from 3/16" hose (DAVE BRADLEY IC742 6-7932)
  L.A. brew (Val Martinez)
  Just Hops ((Ken ))
  Wyeast 3068 (Weihenstephan wheat) question ((George De Piro))
  Scorched brew pot ((Mike Spinelli))
  1996 Music City Brew Off ("Bryan L. Gros")
  pressure in keg lines ("Ted Hull")
  Cidery flavor questions ((BJM <Manbeck, Brad, J>))
  Re: Just Hops (RUSt1d?)
  RIMS (computer control) (ics-limited-allans at Empire.Net)
  Rubber stoppers - corrections ("Rich Byrnes")
  Hose Pressure drop; ("David R. Burley")
  60L English Crystal Question (William D Gladden )
  Re: Vienna and Munich Malt ((Bill Giffin))
  Rubber Stoppers ("Rich Byrnes")
  Re: RIMS - Disadvantages and some thoughts. (hollen at vigra.com)
  RE: pressure drop in hose (Daryl K Kalenchuk)

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Special Events <spevents at postoffice.ptd.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 12:08:36 +0000
Subject: Homebrew Seminar Day

GREAT BREWS OF AMERICA HOMEBREW SEMINAR DAY - November 22, 1996 
Our Homebrew Seminar Day will feature expert lectures presenting a=20 
variety of topics ranging from history, styles and basic brewing=20 
techniques to the more advanced processes.  In addition, we are=20 
hosting a Homebrewers Competition, sanctioned by the American=20 
Homebrewers Association.  The fee is $3.00 per entry and benefits the=20 
National Multiple Sclerosis Society.  Judging, by AHA certified=20 
judges, will follow the seminars.  (Please call for more information=20 
and an entry packet.)  A Beer & Food Matchign Dinner will conclude the=20 
Seminar Day.  Join Split Rock for a full day of expert insight into=20 
the world of homebrewing. =20 
 
HOMEBREW SEMINAR DAY INCLUDES: 
($40.00 Registration Fee) 
8:00 AM - 5:00 PM 
Continental Breakfast 
Seminars: 
History of Homebrewing - David Weisberg 
Overview of Brewing Ingredients - Tom Bedell 
The Brewing Process - Tom Kehoe 
Lunch 
Seminars: 
Classic Beer Styles and How to Brew Them - George Hummel 
Matching Chocolates with Beer Styles - David Weisberg 
Brewing Pitfalls - panel 
 
5:00 PM - 6:00 PM 
Homebrew Competition 
Homebrew Reception 
 
6:30 PM - 8:30 PM 
Beer & Food Matching Dinner 
Keynote Speaker - Alan Eames 
($25.00 additional cost) 
 
plus:  a complimentary copy of "50 Great Homebrewing Tips" by David=20 
Weisberg 
 
SEMINAR SPEAKERS: 
=80  David Weisberg - author/publisher, Lampman Brewing Publications 
=80  Tom Bedell - homebrew/beer writer and world traveler 
=80  Tom Kehoe - professional brewer from Yard's Brewing Co., 
   Philadelphia, PA 
=80  George Hummel - owner of Home Sweet Homebrew, Philadelphia, PA 
=80  Alan Eames - Nationally Renowned Beer Historian 
 
For advance tickets and information, call GREAT BREWS OF AMERICA at=20 
1-800-255-7625 

Return to table of contents


From: scottjones at juno.com (William S Jones)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 03:58:32 EDT
Subject: Iodine-based sanitizers

Whilst wishing I had a homebrew, Steve Johnson said: 
 
    "...rep who looked through her stock book and found an item listed as 
"Iosan" and 
     included some vague descriptors as to what it was used for...as a 
detergent/ 
     sanitizer and could be used as a final rinse. Added that it was good 
for 
     cleaning out drink dispensers. No info as to how much of the 
percentage was 
     titratable iodine like they put on the side of those little bottles 
of Iodophor 
     or such at the homebrew stores." 
 
The concentration is enough to meet the guidelines set out by the EPA, 
which regulates chemical sanitizers.  And they do have pretty strict 
guidelines.  Note that this particular product is a detergent/sanitizer. 
You can use it to clean your equipment, but in order to sanitize, you 
would need to wash and rinse first, then hit it with another, separate 
batch of the solution to avoid recontaminating.  Iodine-based 
detergent/sanitizers tend to be a bit more expensive than plain old 
iodine-sanitizers, so you might want to talk to the sales rep and see if 
she can find an alternative.  If not, Iosan(tm) would still do a good 
job.  Just remember to read the label for usage concentration, temp, etc. 
 
Good brewing, 
 
Scott Jones 
scottjones at juno.com 

Return to table of contents


From: wrm at ccii.co.za (Wouter de Waal)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 11:57:02 +0200
Subject: Re: Newbie probability

OK, time for me to come out of the closet :-) 
 
Tim Kniveton asks: 
>What is the probability that a beginning homebrewer will turn out a 
>decent first batch of beer?  second?  third? 
 
I recently brewed my first beer. I used an EDME bitter kit, using the 
directions on how to brew your first beer I found on the net somewhere. This 
basically says not to add sugar, but to use two kits instead. I didn't want 
to risk two kits (EDME kits are the best available to me, also the most 
expensive) so I halved the water. I got abt 36 bottles (375 ml) of strong, 
very bitter beer. Which happens to be what I like :-) The first bottle 
tasted of bleach, so maybe I should cut down on the sanitization, but either 
I'm getting used to it or it's mellowing out. 
 
A week or so after that my brother built his first beer, Ironman wheat, 
following the directions on the kit (i.e. adding 1 lb sugar). It's been in 
bottles since last Saturday, we tasted the first bottle last night, again a 
slight flavour of bleach (aftertaste, kind of, when you breathe out) but 
also fairly good, IMHO. 
 
We plan to enter both into a smallish (club) competition on the 2nd Nov, see 
what the experts think :-) 
 
So: You have a very good chance to brew a really good first beer, as long as 
you stick to the basics and remember to relax and have a homebrew :-) 
 
Wouter 
 
- -- 
Wouter de Waal ZS1KE     GE>AT d-(pu) s+:-- a- C++$ UL+ U*+$ P>++ L++ E- W 
Argo 505 / FT200       N+++>++ !o K w(--) !O !M V(--) PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP>++ t 
Amateur Homebrewer 5? X? R? tv>--- b+++ DI+ D+ G e+++(*) h--- r+++ y+++(*) 
                                                      Perseverance my son, 
'72 Puma - 1700 FI Type IV engine                        it's a   Land/ 
Series II LR SW - factory fitted Lucas immobiliser                /Rover 
 
"All journeys end when we reach our destination but the journeying remains 
a thing apart, unique unto itself. Most of us make life's journeys without 
understanding that the journeying is a separate thing."  --  Bob Hoover 
 

Return to table of contents


From: WOLFF.R.C- at smtpgty.bwi.wec.com (WOLFF.R.C-)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 07:57:58 -0400
Subject: Brewing Equipment for sale-unfortunately

     I have to leave the homebrew hobby-with much regret. I have a large 
     amount of HB equipment to sell.  I live in the Baltimore area. 
     I have an all grain stainless steel setup. CF wort chiller, many 
     carboys, tables for correct drain heights, corny kegs, 1/4 kegs,1/2 
     kegs, many various bottles, propane cookers and on and on. Also wine 
     making equipment. Call 410-552-2514 or 410-465-5759 or e mail me. I 
     have brewed many prize winning beers with this equipment.I also have a 
     new pump , if interested. 
     So long fellow brewers. 

Return to table of contents


From: Eugene Sonn <eugene at dreamscape.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 08:17:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: first batch, and second

HBDers, especially newbies and lurkers, 
 Regarding the odds of brewing a good beer on a first batch....the 
odds are great.  My warning is to not slack off on your second batch. 
When I began brewing in 1992, my brew buddie and I did a great (in our not 
so humble opinions) wheat beer for our first batch.  But our second batch 
was horrible.  It was a combination of several factors, but I attribute 
them all to the fact that we thought the first batch was easy to do and so 
we were not so careful about ingredients and sanitation in the second 
batch.  My advice is to be careful, don't brew when you're tired or in a 
hurry and once it's in the fermenter sit back and await the joy you will 
have when you hoist your first homebrew. 
 
Eugene Sonn 
eugene at nova.dreamscape.com 
 

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From: Don Trotter <dtrotter at imtn.tpd.dsccc.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 09:51:03 -0500
Subject: Good Hop Selection

 
I find that Brewers Resource, 800-827-3983, has a very good selection 
of hops, which includes Irish Northdown, UK Target, and US Columbus at 
very reasonable prices.  They offer many other ingredients and 
equipments at very competitive prices.  Check 'em out.  They send free 
catalogs! 
 
BTW:  No affiliation, etc., just a very satisfied customer. 
 
don 

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From: DAVE BRADLEY IC742 6-7932 <BRADLEY_DAVID_A at LILLY.COM>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 12:44:36 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Neg Pressure from 3/16" hose

I think I've explained one of the great mysteries of the 20th 
century!  I'm talking about the disappearance of the great 
labor leader Jimmy Hoffa.  Clearly, while enjoying a dinner in 
the 'burbs of Detroit, Jimmy was tempted to sample a fine homebrew 
offered to him (perhaps by Pat Babcock) fresh from the tap 
of a Cornelius keg, when, horribly, he was sucked into the extra 
long 3/16" tubing (Pat) used on his keg!  The tubing was probably 
then recycled, Jimmy and all, as AstroTurf now covering the 
field used by the NY Jets!  Of course the beer in that keg was 
unadulterated since the keg always maintained the 30psi level. 
 
Dave in Indy 
Home of the 3-D B.B.B. 
 

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From: Val Martinez <valhhm at trib.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 06:52:14 -0600
Subject: L.A. brew

i am going to los angeles in a few weeks and am looking for good microbrews 
and/or brewpubs.  any recommendations? 
 

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From: kbjohns at escape.com (Ken )
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 09:08:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Just Hops

It appears that John is not an unbiased, satisfied customer, but conected 
with it based on the URL in his signature. Wonder what he ordered. 
 
>John wrote 
>For comparable prices to Just Hops, try the Malt and Hop Stop, also in 
>Illinois. I placed an order yesterday. Free shipping and at prices 
>cheaper then most. blah blah blah (<-standard disclaimer). 
 
>http://www.mcs.net/7Emaltnhop/home.html 
>John Varady 
>Boneyard Brewing Co. 
>"Ale today, Gone tomorrow" 
 
Bob Johnson 
 
 

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From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 07:25:54 -0700
Subject: Wyeast 3068 (Weihenstephan wheat) question

     Hi, 
 
     A quick question:  has anybody out there tried to push the lowest 
     temperature that Wyeast 3068 will perform at?  I would like to have 
     more clove and less banana in my Weizen, and since varying the degree 
     of aeration didn't work, I'm thinking that lowering the temp might 
     reduce the esters. 
 
     I have a starter going now that took some time to reach high krausen, 
     ~32 hours at 65F (18C), which seemed a tad long to me.  Is 65F already 
     pushing it for that yeast (hard to believe based on my past 
     experience, perhaps just a slow batch)? 
 
     Will lowering the fermentation temp actually reduce the esters, or 
     will it just slow the ferment? 
 
     Have Fun! 
 
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY) 

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From: paa3983 at dpsc.dla.mil (Mike Spinelli)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 08:37:44 edt
Subject: Scorched brew pot

HBDers, 
Has anyone heard that a way to remove the baked on wort /grain in the bottom of
a keg is to heat the keg (empty) until the scorched stuff flakes off? 
 
A buddy in the restaurant business said that's what the kitchen help does to 
remove the stuff on their stainless pots. 
 
Mike in Cherry Hill NJ 
 

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From: "Bryan L. Gros" <grosbl at ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 08:36:51 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: 1996 Music City Brew Off

This is an announcement of the first annual Music City Brew Off 
sponsored by the Music City Brewers. 
 
We're accepting entries in eight categories (which include several styles): 
Pale Ale (Am. Pale Ale, ESB, IPA) 
Porter 
Stout (Sweet Stout, Dry Stout) 
Light lager (American Lager, Bohemian Pilsner, Munich Helles) 
Dark lager (Marzen/Octoberfest, Dunkels, Bock) 
Strong beer (Old ale, Barleywine, Scotch Ale) 
Wheat beer (Am. Wheat, Bav. Wheat, Wit) 
Specialty (herb, spice and fruit beer) 
 
Entries consist of three 12 oz. bottles and will be accepted October 16-23 
at Boscos Brewery in Nashville.  $5/ entry.  Judging will be October 26. 
Judges and stewards needed. 
 
email for more information or see our web site at 
http://www.theporch.com/~homebrew1/brewoff.html 
 
          - Bryan 
            grosbl at ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu 
            Nashville, TN 
 

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From: "Ted Hull" <THull at brwncald.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 3:38:21 EDT
Subject: pressure in keg lines

mark bayer answered, and 
 
kelly jones wrote: 
 
>So, if I use 10 feet of hose, I should get about 30 psi drop, 
right?  Now, 
>if I hook this up to my keg, which is carbonated/pressurized at 
only 10 psi, 
>I should have (10 - 30) = negative 20 psi at the tap.  Will 
this negative 
>presssure cause my keg to suck air back through the line into 
the keg, or 
>will the negative pressure cause the hose to collapse, thus 
preventing any 
>flow at all? 
 
first, you can't get -20 psi at the tap. if the head loss is too 
great in the tubing, the beer gets to a certain point and just 
stops flowing because the liquid pressure (head) becomes equal 
to atmospheric pressure. a psi is equal to about 2.31 ft of 
water head. so, if i have a keg pressurized to 1 psi above 
atmospheric pressure, a tap hose held vertically will have beer 
rise to roughly 2.31 feet above the liquid surface in the keg 
(minus a bit for friction losses). 
 
also, the head loss in the tubing depends on how much flow 
you're trying to force through it. at a higher keg pressure, you 
get more flow, but at a greater head loss. and i haven't tried 
it, but 3 psi per foot of tube seems a bit high as a rule of 
thumb. 
 
i must admit that i don't have a complete grasp on the effect of 
pushing a carbonated liquid through a tube/pipe, but it seems to 
me (and my limited budget) that you'd want to be able to use the 
same hose over a range of keg pressures. haven't tried it yet, 
but seems like you could use some sort of clamp (or clamps) on 
the beer line to induce headloss and achieve the desired tap 
pressure (still flowing, but not too foamy). 
 
so, the moral of the story is that vacuums don't just happen, 
you gotta suck. 
 
ted 

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From: BJM at roisysinc.com (BJM <Manbeck, Brad, J>)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 08:35:57 -0600
Subject: Cidery flavor questions

- --_[INTERGATE-SMTP696523125]_ 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 
 
I have a question concerning some slight off flavors in an ale that I 
bottled last night. When I transferred the beer into the bottling bucket 
I noticed a slight cidery smell. This is approximately my 25th batch, all 
of which have been extract brews. I read in Papazins The New Complete Joy 
of Homebrewing that cidery of flavor can be attributed to using sugar in 
the initial brew. I did NOT do this. Here are some points that differ 
from my previous batches. 
 
1. The final SG was unusually high 1.026. Original SG was 1.046. The beer 
had plenty of time to ferment. 7 days in the primary and 10 days in the 
secondary. 
2. The batch I brewed previous to this was a cinnamon spice amber ale. 
Could the plastic fermenter have retained any flavors? (I use plastic for 
primary and secondary) 
3. For the first time I used all DME. 6lbs of LAAglander Extra Light. 
 
Here's a quick ingredient list. (Trying for a simple, light colored ale, 
nothing fancy) 
1. 6lbs Laaglander Extra light DME. 
2. 1/2 lb Victory Malt 
3. 1oz of Fuggles for the boil (60 mins) and 1oz of Fuggles for 
finishing. 
4. I used the British Ale WYeast # 1098 
 
Getting back to my question, Has anyone else experienced this condition? 
(Cidery off flavors). I am not concerned that the batch is ruined. I just 
want to determine the possible causes off this condition so I can avoid 
it in the future. Nip it in the bud so to speak. 
 
Personal e-mails are welcome. 
 
Thanks in advance for any information. 
 
Brad Manbeck 
bjm at roisysinc.com 
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From: RUSt1d? <rust1d at li.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:04:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Just Hops

>It appears that John is not an unbiased, satisfied customer, but conected 
>with it based on the URL in his signature. Wonder what he ordered. 
> 
>>For comparable prices to Just Hops, try the Malt and Hop Stop, also in 
>>Illinois. I placed an order yesterday. Free shipping and at prices 
>>cheaper then most. blah blah blah (<-standard disclaimer). 
> 
>>http://www.mcs.net/7Emaltnhop/home.html 
>>John Varady 
> 
>Bob Johnson 
 
You are correct, sir. I am not yet a satisfied customer. When my first 
order (8 lbs rye malt, 10 lbs Belgian wheat malt, 1 lb whole cascade, 1 
lb whole centennial, 33 oz Iodophor, 6 hop bags, 2 brewers best thermo 
strips, 20' 3/8"id x 1/2"od tubing - since you wondered) arrives, then, 
hopefully, I will be satisfied. 
 
I provided the standard disclaimer (blah, blah, blah) and assure you that 
I spoke as an unbiased partisan. The url was provided for those interested 
to click at. 
 
http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady/index.html 
 
I'm a good guy. Really. 
 
John Varady 
Boneyard Brewing Co. 
"Ale today, Gone tomorrow" 
 

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From: ics-limited-allans at Empire.Net
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:17:10 +0000
Subject: RIMS (computer control)

>>I would like to automate my mash and sparge with a computer. Is it 
>>possible to buy a card that will convert a thermocouple (or other temp 
>>sensor) to an input that can be read by a computer ? 
 
Yes there are a number of good data acquisition boards on the market. 
CyberResearch (800) 341-2525 
ComputerBoards (508) 261-1123 
Compurep (603) 329-4248 
 
would be 3 distributers. Recommend that you get a board that does linearization
and cold junction compensation. 
 
>> I would also like to turn an electric heater on and off as well as some 
>> valves and a pump. 
 
The data acquisition board that you would buy can contain digital I/O, however 
you would have to provide some type of relay interface. 
 
Another approach, would be to puchase a temperature controller and a small mini
PLC. If there is a real desire to communicate to a pc, then both can be 
acquired
with communications. While you would still need to program the user interface 
to
the pc,the temperature controller would handle all of the PID algorithmns for 
control. I believe that there are a number of Ramp/Soak temperature controllers
made by RKC Syscon, P200 Series I believe. 
+---------------------------------------- 
Industrial Control Specialists 
300 Bedford Street 
Manchester, NH 03101 
(603) 625-2900   Fax: (603) 625-2431 
In Pursuit of Customer Service Excellence 
+---------------------------------------- 

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From: "Rich Byrnes" <rbyrnes2.ford at e-mail.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 09:56:41 EDT
Subject: Rubber stoppers - corrections

 
DOH!!!  I miss the delete feature, I'm such a fool.. 
 
First off, you drill a hole in a piece of wood, not weed! 
 
2) the od of the brass tube should be the hole size you need 
 
3) the total length of the tube (not tobe) should be 6-8", not 
   6-8" into the wood handle 
 
sorry for the obvious lack of proofreading, no flames allowed!! 
 
Regards,_Rich Byrnes Jr 
Fermental Order of Renaissance Draughtsmen     \\\|/// 
phone #(313)323-2613, fax #390-4520_______o000_(.) (.)_000o 
rbyrnes2.ford at e-mail.com                         (_) 
 

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From: "David R. Burley" <103164.3202 at CompuServe.COM>
Date: 19 Sep 96 10:32:47 EDT
Subject: Hose Pressure drop;

Brewsters: 
 
Kelly Jones writes that based on calculations he's seen here, he has a long 
enough hose coming out of his corny that he gets a 30psi drop and he expects a 
negative pressure of 20psi at his tank head.  Don't forget that gauge is PSIG 
and measures pressure above atmosphere, so you only have a negative pressure of
5psi and the flow back into your tank will be slower. 
 
Like Kelly I have seen lots of comments on using a long hose to drop pressure 
from a keg to atmosphere so foaming won't be a problem. The idea is appealing, 
but I have yet to have any theoretical development ( ala Reynolds numbers, 
e.g.)
of the idea.  Like a resistor demonstrating a voltage drop, flow has to be 
taking place to get a pressure drop. The idea goes, If the pressure can be 
dropped by hose resistance so that at the at the delivery  end of the hose the 
pressure is dropped to one atmosphere then no foaming can take place. Some have
suggested this is the ideal  and some have cut 35 ft hoses to unsuccessfully 
utilize the idea. If this were the case then no flow can take place can it? so 
you get no pressure drop?  How many angels *can* dance on a pinhead? 
 
Remember, the pressure at the end of any hose in which the valve is open is 1 
atmosphere and the tank pressure at the other. With the pressure differential 
determined, the flow rate is determined by the resistance of the hose.  The 
smaller the hose, the slower the flow. The longer the hose, the slower the flow
and interestingly, the less pressure drop per foot!. 
 
I think the main issue here is the surface texture of the hose and the delivery
spout ( rougher=more foam), the heat influx ( insulate it) and most importantly
the nozzle that delivers the beer. The finer the nozzle, the greater the foam. 
To reduce foam you want a big opening from the beer line to the delivery spout 
not a needle valve. 
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
 
Keep on brewin' 
 
Dave Burley 
Kinnelon, NJ 07405 USA 
103164.3202 at COMPUSERVE.COM 
 

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From: William D Gladden <W_GLADDEN at Mail.Co.Chester.PA.US>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 09:35:49 -0500
Subject: 60L English Crystal Question

I brewed an extract ale with Londen Ale Yeast Lab yeast, pale 
M&F DME, hopped with Fuggles & EKG and added 1# caravienna and 1# 
60L English Crystal.  Well ... when I drink it the back of my 
tongue gets *REALLY* dry.  I've never had this happen with 
caravienna before and suspect the 60L.  I'm guessing I used too 
much crystal.  Following recipes was working fine so I just had 
to try to learn by making up my own :-\  Anyone with insights 
into this sahara like condition on the back of the tongue?  What 
are the odds this will mellow out over time like hops and fruit 
tastes do?  Comments? 
 
I'm having a hard time keeping up with HBD these days (all 
problems should be so pleasant) so private email responses would 
be greatly appreciated.  TIA 
 
Bill Gladden, Downingtown PA 
<W_GLADDEN at Mail.Co.Chester.PA.US> 
 

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From: bill-giffin at juno.com (Bill Giffin)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 08:54:31 cst
Subject: Re: Vienna and Munich Malt

I have brewed a number of beers using both the Vienna and the Munich malt 
as the base malt.  The average extraction for these malt using a 
decoction mash has been about 31 points per pounds per gallon.  I am 
happy to know that the malt doesn't seem to care what its diastatic power 
is, what is there is enough.  Both Irek's and Durst malts have been used 
to come to this result. 
 
Contrary to Don's post commonly available Vienna and Munich malt are a 
bit on the light side to come to the correct color for the Vienna and 
dunkel styles and require a touch of darker malts to come to the correct 
color.  At least this is what I  have had to do with the Durst malts. 
 
Bill 

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From: "Rich Byrnes" <rbyrnes2.ford at e-mail.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:51:37 EDT
Subject: Rubber Stoppers

> From: Ken Sullivan <kj at nts.gssc.com> 
> Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:18:06 -0600 
> Subject: Drill bits vs. stopper sizes 
> Hi all,  does anyone out there have a table which correlates 
> rubber stopper sizes with hole sizes for the purpose of 
> selecting the proper drill bit?? 
> thanks, kj 
 
 
 A new book on the market, Brew Ware by the infamous Karl Lutzen and 
 ? Stevens is a gadget lovers treasure chest of info, the book has many 
 great tips and plans for building "stuff".  Anyways, they just happened 
 to have a nifty trick for drilling out rubber stoppers without a drill! 
 Stoppers are near impossible to drill, I've tried!  The trick is to find 
 a brass tube of the diameter hole you want (I'm sure the book actually 
 named the size but it's at home now). You build a drilling tool by 
 gluing(epoxy?) the brass tube (about 6-8") into a wood handle you make 
 by drilling a hole into a piece of wood, then you cut the end of the 
 tube at an angle so you have a sharp point.  Now just push the tube 
 through thr stopper with a twisting motion, voila!!  This is based 
 on the same principle as a leather punch. 
 
 
The book shows how to motorize a grain mill, build a gravity rack for 
an all grain half barrel system, and a lot more that I haven't had time 
to read yet! 
 
No affiliation blah blah blah but highly recommended for the gadgeteers 
library! 
 
Regards,_Rich Byrnes Jr 
Fermental Order of Renaissance Draughtsmen     \\\|/// 
phone #(313)323-2613, fax #390-4520_______o000_(.) (.)_000o 
rbyrnes2.ford at e-mail.com                         (_) 
 

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From: hollen at vigra.com
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 09:22:02 PDT
Subject: Re: RIMS - Disadvantages and some thoughts.

>> Steve Alexander writes: 
 
SA> Daryl K Kalenchuk asks about RIMS disadvantages ... 
 
I am not trying to be argumentative or bash you, but from your post, 
it sounds like you are basing your statements on supposition.  Have 
you actully ever proved any of this on a RIMS system?  You have some 
very good points, and if there is corroborative evidence, I sure would 
like to see it. 
 
SA> The small high capacity heating elements used in typical RIMS 
SA> means that a large amount of thermal energy is transferred over 
SA> the rather small surface area of the heating element.  This leads 
SA> to very high thermal gradient, and so high temperatures in the 
SA> immediate vicinity of the heating element.  This would suggest 
SA> thermal loss of enzymes, coagulation of proteins and 
SA> caramelization of sugars. 
 
Totally agreed, but if you build a RIMS with a small high density 
heating element, IMHO, you have completely botched it.  In a well 
designed RIMS system, you will use a very low density heating element 
which precludes all these disadvantages. 
 
SA> The pumps typical of RIMS design cause substantial shear force 
SA> which can, and undoubtedly does denature proteins and enzymes to 
SA> some extent.  Throttling flow rates with a valve exacerbates this 
SA> problem.  This issue is addressed in commercial enzymatic 
SA> processes by specialized pump design. 
 
While I cannot discount this, do you have any proof?  I will accede 
that it may be so in commercial enzymatic processes, but does it have 
any *noticeable* effect in beer production and what would those 
effects be?  I certainly produce excellent beers on my RIMS system and 
have been using a little too high a flow rate for a couple of years 
now.  Just recently throttled it back a tad due to discussions on 
grain bed compaction. 
 
SA> Very thick mashes are probably not possible with a RIMS apparatus, 
SA> as the amount of fluid available for recirculation and the amount 
SA> of time requires for the liquid to sump would undoubtedly cause 
SA> cavitation and/or loss of priming wort in the up-tube and 
SA> subsequent heating problems. 
 
Depends on what you term very thick mashes.  My normal RIMS mash us at 
1.1 quarts per lb. of grain plus a fixed 2 quarts for system volume. 
This is quite thick when compared to some figures I have seen quoted 
for stovetop mashes.  This leaves a couple of inches of liquid on top 
of the grain bed and the flow rate is as high as 4 GPM. 
 
SA> RIMS recirculation is probably not possible with very sticky 
SA> mashes, for example those that include a high proportion of wheat, 
SA> rye and perhaps rice. 
 
Very good point.  I have no data on this as I have not tried those 
grains in my beer.  Would really like to hear from a RIMS user who 
*has*. 
 
SA> -- Advantage/Disadvantage -- 
 
SA> I really think that the liquid/electrical danger issue should be 
SA> added to the disadvantages list - Just as the advantage of no open 
SA> propane flames and no resulting fumes certainly should be added to 
SA> the advantages. 
 
Yes, definitely.  But again, with a properly designed system, this can 
be minimized.  The heater chamber should be grounded and *all* 
electricity to the system should come directly into a GFCI breaker and 
from there be fed out to the various electrical needs.  This should go 
a long way towards prevention of electrical hazards. 
 
SA> It has been suggested on HBD that the extremely clear highly 
SA> recirculated runnings from a RIMS setup may lack sufficient lipids 
SA> for optimal yeast growth. 
 
If this is true, then how do I get a Belgian strong ale with an OG of 
1.095 to ferment out to 1.016?  I have seen no problems with yeast 
growth on my system.  Then again, I force oxygenate with O2 and a 
sintered SS air stone and produce optimal conditons for vigorous yeast 
growth and pitch large amounts of healthy freshly cultured yeast.  I 
coudl see if someone just dumps in the contents of a smack pack, that 
it may be on the edge, and in that case your disadvantage may come 
into play. 
 
SA> Also a RIMS probably can't take mashes as thick a those that I 
SA> usually use at dough-in and during the protein rest. 
 
Yes, but why do you have your mashes that thick?  Because you need to 
add water later to boost temperatures?  With a RIMS, there is no need 
for water additions, so the initial thickness is the final thickness. 
Is there a *reason* one would *need* a thick mash during a protein 
rest, other than to avoid the final mash being too thin after repeated 
water additions? 
 
SA> Does the RIMS add to control or repeatability at this stage ? 
 
Well, I think so.  I dump the grain into the return flow of wort using 
a special return manifold which is not the one used during mashing. 
This effectively mixes the grain and water immediately and results in 
never getting grain balls.  That I think could be considered added 
control.  If grain balls never form, it is impossible to miss getting 
rid of them. 
 
SA> The major objective of getting grist in contact with water and 
SA> preventing balling still requires substantial human intervention 
SA> and observation I think. 
 
True, but at least the way I do it with my RIMS, it requires much less 
and is much easier to do. 
 
Steve makes some very good points, and if the ones he has questioned 
have corroborative evidence, then it behooves us to improve upon what 
would be a deficiency. 
 
dion 
 
- -- 
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x164                 Email: hollen at vigra.com 
Sr. Software Engineer - Vigra Div. of Visicom Labs  San Diego, California 

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From: Daryl K Kalenchuk <dkk886 at mail.usask.ca>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:33 -0600 (CST)
Subject: RE: pressure drop in hose

mark bayer writes in response to kelly jones: 
<snip> i say this because 
i believe the restriction value of 3 psi per foot is based on some nominal 
rate of flow in an equilibrium condition.  i don't believe the restriction 
is 3 psi per foot if the beer moves significantly slower than the rate of 
flow used to generate the tables for hose restriction. <> 
 
Your on the right track, for laminar flows pressure loss is proportional to 
flow rates, at turbulent flow pressure loss is proportional to the flow rate 
squared.  Since in this system you begin with a fixed pressure (what is in 
your keg) as you add more fittings and line you are increasing the pressure 
drop thus flow decreases until you have virtually no pressure and thus no 
flow.  You can see this by placing your thumb over the end of a garden hose 
(expansion of the hose allows for some flow to continue after first placing 
your thumb over the end)  feel the pressure build up as the flow slows and 
stops eventually the pressure will be the same as the curb pressure.  Thus 
no flow no pressure drop, low flow low pressure drop.  This is why you 
shouldn't throttle the tap but instead crack it wide open. 
 
if you fill your 12oz mug in about 15 sec and running the beer through 3/16" 
(inner dia) lines then the flow in those lines is turbulent (Renoylds#=8000 
2000 is the transition to laminar).  So the pressure drop is about 
proportional to the flow rate squared.  Using these numbers in some quick 
and dirty calculations the pressure drop should be about 1 psi/foot which 
after including losses in other fittings, corners ect. is close to the 3 
psi/foot mentioned.  My point being that since pressure drop is largely 
determined by the flow rate the amount of line you need depends greatly on 
how fast your beer can flow out of your tap. 
 
Assuming turbulent flow in the beer lines occurs I have to question Al's 
comment that shaking the keg creates eddies which harbour nucleation sites 
for CO2.  Turbulent flow would create the same opportunity for nucleation. 
Do you believe it's because of the short time (about 5 sec) that the beer 
will flow through the lines if so the first third of the second pouring 
should be foamy also, no? 
 
Daryl Kalenchuk 
Saskatoon, Canada 
 

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