---

   FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
        Shawn Steele, Digest Janitor
        Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!

Contents:
  sparging ideas (James Murphy)
  Scrubbies ((Neal Christensen))
  Homebrewing in Italy ("MASSIMO FARAGGI")
  Location, Location, Location (John DeCarlo)
  Re: table sugar ((Rich Hampo))
  RIMS issues ("Louis K. Bonham")
  racking losses ((BAYEROSPACE))
  Iodine-based sanitizers  (Rscholz at aol.com)
  "They moved whilst you were at school, son..." ("Pat Babcock")
  Newbies and sanitizing (Steve)
  Flour, Hops and Crass Commercialism (Jack Schmidling)
  extended RIMS discussion questions (Daryl K Kalenchuk)
  IBU calculation (Alex Santic)
  The Pressures of Hosing (KennyEddy at aol.com)
  Specialty Beer Category (DENNIS WALTMAN)
  Spec Beer Cat and N.O. (RUSt1d?)
  Seminar Correction (Special Events)
  Re: RIMS with other grains (Kelly Jones)
  Just Hops changed hands (Jeff Frane)
  Hop and grain storage; Seasonal Ale Recipe Request; Carboyss ("Bernard D Hummel")
  JSP Maltmill, retail beer prices (John Chang)

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: James Murphy <murphy at gordy.ucdavis.edu>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:00:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: sparging ideas

Hi, 
 
Thanks to all who replied to my question about sparging techniques. 
In case there are others who are interested, the suggestions I got were: 
 
1. Buy or build a sparge arm like the one from Listermann and let gravity 
   do the work. 
2. Run a hose from the bucket to the boiler and let it flow slowly. 
3. Drill a bunch of holes in a tupperware bowl and suspend over the grain 
   bed (I think Ken also posted this idea directly to HBD). 
 
Jim Murphy 
jjmurphy at ucdavis.edu 

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From: nealc at selway.umt.edu (Neal Christensen)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 11:04:52 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Scrubbies

In 2187 W. D. Knudson wrote that 'The best combination for cleaning 
Stainless Steel is the Scotch brand green 
cleaning pads and the yeast dregs from the carboy.' 
 
I have been told that yeast slurry is/was often used to clean and shine the 
copper kettles in the brew house.  My experience is that it works great on 
copper - quickly removing any discoloring and bringing it to a shine.  I bet 
it would also work well on stainless.  I have also been told that the green 
cleaning pads commonly found at the grocery store are not the preferred 
choice in the brewery.  The red or maroon pads (also made by Scotch) found 
at the paint store are the preferred choice.  Can anyone support this and 
explain the difference between the pads? 
 
Neal Christensen 
Missoula 
 

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From: "MASSIMO FARAGGI" <maxfarag at hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 07:53:24 -0700
Subject: Homebrewing in Italy

Hi All, 
 
I am new to this group; I would like to introduce myself with a few 
words about Homebrewing in Italy. I hope this can be useful to: 
1. Italian homebrewers (or just beerlovers) reading HBD 
2. USA & rest-of-the-world brewers going to Italy, or just interested 
for a "cultural" point of view. 
 
I started homebrewing in 1984, with some beer kits bought in London 
by some relatives. Then during a travel to Scotland I could find a 
HB shop in Edimborough, so I could buy some ingredients and books; 
I switched since then to extract+hop brewing (with grains adjuncts). 
The major improvement happened when I could find some of the heaviest 
ingredients in Italy (see below); the shop in Scotland agreed to 
mail me the other ingredients (yeast, hops, some grains). I brewed 
about (only) 25 beers since then - usually a stout and an IPA and some 
experiments. 
 
I think I've been a sort of "pioneer" al least in my area (Genoa). 
Only in recent years I could meet some people (other than the friends 
that I introduced to this Art) who were homebrewing, usually from beer 
kits. 
However, the possibility of home brewing has always sounded quite 
interesting to a lot of people I met; at my present workplace we were 
at one time 5 people making beer and we organized at times 
"beer festivals" at lunch time! 
 
The main problem in Italy has been and still is the availability of 
the ingredients. There are no specialized shops. 
This is the present situation as far as I know: 
MALT EXTRACT is available as pale DMS in 25 Kg. cans. It is used by 
bakers and sold by bakers' wholesale suppliers. It seems to be of a 
good quality compared to the UK homebrewing extract I could try and 
is produced from the same malteries and breweries producing italian 
beer. NO AMBER or DARK MALT EXTRACT seems available. 
UNMALTED GRAINS and FLAKES are available in herbs & special food shops. 
TORRIFIED and ROASTED UNMALTED  GRAINS I make at home from the raw 
grains (this will be a question I will post to HBD - grain roasting 
techniques - unless I can find some FAQ or so in the WEB) 
MALTED GRAINS for adjuncts - crystal malt etc. - these are not available and I 
mail order them to UK shops. 
HOPS are available in herbs & special food shops, but of unknow type and 
quality and badly kept in open air. I tried them and they just work to bitter 
your brew; I prefer to mail order them in UK. Maybe one can find wild hops 
somewhere or of course grow them. 
YEAST Baker yeast is available and works (other question to submit 
to HBD - suitability of baker yeast to make beer). As they are 
lightweight I prefer to mail order in UK the specific yeast I need. 
 
BEER KITS are now available in some hobby shops; the same can also sell the 
basic EQUIPMENT; anyway equipment is not a problem as winemaking is widespread.
 
 
So in our group of Hbrewers we found that the best thing is: mail ordering 
hops, yeasts and crystal and other malt grains from shops in UK (or ask friends
going to England to buy them) and buying here malt extract, flakes and raw 
barley grains. Mail ordering oflarge quantities of malt extraxt, or pale malt 
for all-grain brews is very expensive as post rates go by weight 
 
LAWS: it's a controversial point; in the land of winemaking it seems that none 
of our hundreds of thousands of laws handles the subject of 
homebrewing, neither to forbid it nor to allow it. (Home winemaking is 
allowed). I personally have a relative which is a judge specialized in 
health and food but she could give me no precise answer. I think you 
should at least pay some tax on your beer even for personal consumption (we 
also have here in Italy hundreds of thousands of different taxations..). 
Anyway if you don't hear from me for too much time please call Amnesty 
International... 
 
Ok, sorry if wasted some of HBD space and time, but I feel that there could be 
quite a few people in Italy or somewhere in the world (I remember a man from 
South America that recently posted to HBD) that is maybe reading beer 
newsgroups or digests in the Net and need just that little "push" to jump in 
and join us Hbrewers... 
 
I have dozens of technical questions (including the two I mentioned before) 
that I will NOT post for the moment... only, if some has any general advice to 
a brewer with my limitation, that is warmly welcome. 
Any Italian needing more info don't hesitate to email me. 
My positive contribution to HBD could be quite small for the moment, 
unless someone needs some info about European beers and Ales (I tasted 
over 600 and recorded data in my database). 
 
Cheers, 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Massimo Faraggi 
 
GENOVA - ITALY 
 
maxfarag at hotmail.com 
 
- --------------------------------------------------------- 
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com 
- --------------------------------------------------------- 

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From: John DeCarlo <jdecarlo at juno.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:08:45 -0400
Subject: Location, Location, Location

Could each person who posts about an event of any kind please *begin* 
the post with a geographical location (at least the country, state, 
city, and probably general location (Northern California, for example) 
for larger states and lesser-known cities).  Please! 
 
Even those of us who pretend to know something about world and US 
geography may not know where "Big Rock" is.  And for a particularly 
enjoyable event, it helps us to know ahead of time that it is too far 
away to even consider.  Otherwise we get our hopes up, only to see them 
dashed by a location at the end of the message, or by ending in 
confusion when no location is even mentioned. 
 
Thanks. 
 
John "I like to complain" DeCarlo,  Arlington, VA (Northern VA, near 
Washington, DC). 

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From: rhampo at ford.com (Rich Hampo)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:08:20 -0400
Subject: Re: table sugar

Howdy all, 
 
Al K. writes 
 
>>I've searched the archives and they do indicate that sucrose 
>>(tablet sugar) is derived from sugar beets. 
 
>In europe.  In the US it's virtually (if not all) from cane sugar.  Both 
>cane and beet sugar are almost 100% sucrose (table sugar). 
 
Actually, here in Michigan, a lot of sugar is indeed beet sugar. 
The Pioneer brand of sugar is made from sugar beets grown in 
mid-Michigan (somehow sugar cane just won't live through the 
snowy winters ;=) 
 
Cheers! 
 
Richard Hampo 
H&H Brewing Ltd. 
 

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From: "Louis K. Bonham" <lkbonham at i-link.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 12:09:37 +0000
Subject: RIMS issues

I have to quibble with Steve Alexander's recent critiques of RIMS mashing: 
 
> * The small high capacity heating elements used in typical RIMS means 
>   that a large amount of thermal energy is transferred over the rather 
>   small surface area of the heating element.  This leads to very high 
>   thermal gradient, and so high temperatures in the immediate vicinity 
>   of the heating element.  This would suggest thermal loss of enzymes, 
>   coagulation of proteins and caramelization of sugars. 
 
Good RIMS design relies on the in-line heater *only* to handle temperature 
maintenance and the last 2 degrees or so of a boost.  My system (a modified 
prototype of the unit now marketed by SABCO) has a jet burner and a baffle 
plate under the mash/lauter tun, and I use the burner to handle the bulk of 
the temp boosts (i.e., I turn the gas off when I get within two degrees of my 
target).  With this kind of setup, I've never had any problems of the type 
you suggest, even when brewing extremely pale beers. 
> 
> * The pumps typical of RIMS design cause substantial shear force 
>   which can, and undoubtedly does denature proteins and enzymes to 
>   some extent.  Throttling flow rates with a valve exacerbates this 
>   problem.  This issue is addressed in commercial enzymatic processes 
>   by specialized pump design. 
 
Theoretically, this may take place.  Practically, however, does this 
denaturing occur enough to make any material difference in the mash?  Again, 
I've done dozens of batches and have never encountered any problem of this 
nature, even though my system uses the typical pump (March magnetic drive 
pump) and controls the flow with a valve.  Do you have any hard data that 
documents that enzymes are denatured in a RIMS system to any material degree? 
 
> * Very thick mashes are probably not possible with a RIMS apparatus, 
>   as the amount of fluid available for recirculation and the amount of 
>   time requires for the liquid to sump would undoubtedly cause 
>   cavitation and/or loss of priming wort in the up-tube and subsequent 
>   heating problems. 
 
Again, is this critique based on experience?  I routinely do mashes that use 
1.2 quarts per pound, and could easily do thicker mashes by just increasing 
the batch size (the amount of "foundation" water that fills the plumbing is 
constant).  More to the point, what's the big deal about doing super-thick 
mashes?  As documented in Dr. Fix's book, mash thickness has very little 
practical effect on the mash, as long as you're not doing an extremely thin 
mash.  (I know that Noonan and others claim certain benefits from thick 
mashes, but I've never seen them advance any hard data to support such 
claims.) 
 
> * RIMS recirculation is probably not possible with very sticky mashes, 
>   for example those that include a high proportion of wheat, rye and 
>   perhaps rice. 
 
A valid point, but one that appears to have a solution.  Conrad Keyes, who 
designed the SABCO RIMS system, tells me that he solved the sticky mash 
problem of a high-proportion wheat mash by adding a few lbs of rice hulls to 
the grist.  I have no personal experience with this technique, but it appears 
conceptually sound. 
 
> * I really think that the liquid/electrical danger issue should be 
>   added to the disadvantages list -  Just as the advantage of no open 
>   propane flames and no resulting fumes certainly should be added to 
>   the advantages. 
 
The electrical danger is, of course, present, but it can be dealt with 
cheaply and easily.  Anyone designing or implementing a RIMS system **MUST** 
include a ground fault interruption circuit in their design, just as any 
electrical outlets installed in bathrooms or kitchens should have this 
feature.  OTOH, as indicated above, a good RIMS system still uses a flame 
source, so no advantage from its elimination. 
 
> It has been suggested on HBD that the extremely clear 
> highly recirculated runnings from a RIMS setup may lack sufficient 
> lipids for optimal yeast growth. 
 
Suggested, yes.  Documented, no.  I've never heard of anyone actually 
encountering this problem. 
 
> The initial dough-in stage owes little to the RIMS apparatus except 
> convenience of pumping.  After some initial mixing it's possible to 
> recirc wort with the RIMS to thoroughly mix the mash.  The shear 
> forces in the pump at this early stage may be objectionable.  Also a 
> RIMS probably can't take mashes as thick a those that I usually use at 
> dough-in and during the protein rest.  A paddle undoubtedly generates 
> less shear force than a pump at this stage.  Does the RIMS add to 
> control or repeatability at this stage ?  Hard to answer, but it seems 
> unlikely.  The major objective of getting grist in contact with water 
> and preventing balling still requires substantial human intervention 
> and observation I think. 
 
I still question whether the issue of shear forces causing problems isn't 
more academic than actual, at least in the small scale batches produced by 
homebrewers (>1 bbl) .  As to the need for human intervention at dough in, 
you're right: ain't no substitute for hand mixing if you don't want balls of 
malt. 
 
> The RIMS pumps' shear force loss of enzymes and 
> proteins continues to be a negative and the high temperatures produced 
> at the very small surface if the waterheater element is an even 
> greater threat to the wort. 
 
See above.  Again, I've never encountered any problems from any "loss of 
enzymes" (indeed, the increased circulation from the RIMS process appears to 
accellerate the starch degradation process -- I typically have complete 
conversion much sooner than a conventional mash) or insufficient protein. 
 
Regards --------Louis Bonham 

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From: M257876 at sl1001.mdc.com (BAYEROSPACE)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 12:12 -0600
Subject: racking losses

collective homebrew conscience: 
 
chuck in nashville wrote: 
 
>anyone 
>have any suggestions on how to eliminate the trub gunk from getting into the 
>primary.  I already use an immersion chiller to rapidly cool the wort and 
>whirlpool the brewpot and let it sit for about ten minutes before 
>transferring into the primary.  However there usually isn't much trub left in 
>the center of the pot after racking, it all seems to be in the fermenter. 
 
here's an idea:  use a 7 gallon carboy to put the chilled wort+trub in. 
you can aerate/pitch your yeast at this point, depending on temperature, then 
wait for the trub to settle.  usually within a few hours the trub will settle 
to the bottom and you can then siphon the wort off the trub.  i use this 
method and it seems to work okay.  it assumes, however, that you know about 
how much trub a recipe will generate.  i usually try to hit the 5.5 to 5.8 
gallon mark on the 7 gallon carboy for a typical all barley malt average 
gravity (1.048) recipe, and i'm usually in the ballpark.  bigger barley 
malt recipes give more trub, and wheat malt seems to not contribute much, 
in my experience. 
 
 
by the way, i measure my extraction by using both the pre-racking volume and 
the post racking volume.  the numbers i come up with are usually about 
28 or 29 for post racking volume, and 31-33 for pre-racking volume.  which 
volume do most of the rest of you use? 
 
i have a question about this method, though.  if the yeast is pitched before 
racking off the trub, does some of it sediment with the trub and therefore 
get left behind when the wort is racked to the real primary?  i've often 
wondered if i'm losing yeast this way.  the alternative is to wait and not 
pitch the yeast until after racking (ooh, scary).  i've done this for beers 
that i have chilled to below 50 degrees and never had a problem, but my 
preference is to pitch asap. 
 
so, am i losing yeast by pitching before racking?  and if so, is this still 
preferable to pitching after waiting for the trub to settle and racking? 
 
brew hard, 
 
mark bayer 

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From: Rscholz at aol.com
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:30:13 -0400
Subject: Iodine-based sanitizers 

brewsters, 
 
Steve Johnson writes: 
>found an item listed as "Iosan" and 
>included some vague descriptors as to what it was used for...as a detergent/ 
 
>sanitizer and could be used as a final rinse. Added that it was good for 
>cleaning out drink dispensers. No info as to how much of the percentage was 
>titratable iodine like they put on the side of those little bottles of 
Iodophor 
>or such at the homebrew stores.  But, at $23.05 bottle for a gallon, it may 
be a 
>worthwhile investment for me and my other homebrewing comrades.  Anybody 
>know anything about this stuff? 
 
I use a similar commercial product I get from the resturant supply in NY,NY 
I was suprised how little the store reps knew about what they carry. I asked 
for a no-rinse sanitizer and they said " we don't carry anything like that" 
so I walk 
over to the shelf and read the label on their "Beer glass cleaner" and it's 
iodine based with instructions for dilutions to air-dry/ no-rinse large food 
handling equip. For beer glasses: one dips and rinses in clean water. 
that's all the store guys knew about it, but it's great for sanitizing and at 
 
$16.50 / gal per case of six gals. ( yes I know I've got enough for the next 
5 yrs) 
it beats Iodofor at ~ $1/oz. So look for it as beer glass cleaner and the 
resturant 
suppliers might know what you want. Hope this helps. 
 
richard l scholz 
bklyn ny 

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From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at ford.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:33:27 -0400
Subject: "They moved whilst you were at school, son..."

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your psychologist... 
 
I was recently ruminating on the underlying feeling of hostility I now pick 
up from the digest - a feeling that started a few months before the digest 
transferred and has been growing ever since. The feeling of "family", or at 
least of "community" seems to be waning. 
 
Perhaps its the impression of a few "experts" apparently trying to dominate 
the pages of this august forum whilst trying to make the other look to be a 
ninny. Or maybe it's the inevitable degradation of such things. Or, maybe its 
the content-control freaks exerting their influence - I can't answer. I can 
only hope that calling attention to it will bring back the digest I used to 
know. 
 
Where are Tracy Aquilla? Spencer Thomas? AJ DeLange? Dave Draper? Others? 
These folks used to be CONSTANT contibutors? Now it's a rare occassion that 
we hear from them; and then, only for brief. Have they noticed, too? Am I 
insane? Will Batman and Robin get free from the evil clutches of the 
Kochster? 
 
It's a lot like coming home to the sudden realization that your family has 
moved out while you were at work. 
 
Is it just me? 
 
My intent is not to discount the contributions that some new "faces" have 
made to the digest. Just that it seems more like a a fire-fight than a 
community any more. 
 
Pat Babcock 
pbabcock at oeonline.com (Please, oh please use this address for replies) 
Pondering my navel in Canton, MI 

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From: Steve <JOHNSONS at UANSV5.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 12:38:31 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Newbies and sanitizing

Don Chase in HBD #2193 talks about helping a "newbie" brew his first batch, 
and that his friend "...got so worked up over doing everything right that he 
oversanitized, and his beer wasswill." 
 
Well, I don't mean to be picky, but I also don't want new brewers to get the 
wrong idea about sanitation.  I don't think that a brewer can ever get too 
careful about sanitation, to the point of "oversanitizing" any equipment. 
Perhaps Don means that his friend was a bit sloppy or haphazzard about 
carefullyrinsing or drying any equipment that had been sanitized.
 
As a relatively new brewer myself, early on (batch 4, maybe) I had the mis- 
fortune of getting some lactic flavors in some of my bottles, and took the 
advice from some of my fellow brewers in our club, the Music City Brewers in 
Nashville, TN, to tighten up my sanitizing procedures and separate my yogurt 
making from my beer making!  I'm now getting to ready to brew my 15th batch, 
and haven't had any problems with infections or iodophor and/or bleach 
flavors in my beers, either.  The bottom line is that all brewers should make 
careful sanitation and cleanliness a habit with their brewing, and let those 
yeast cells do what they do best!  With good sanitation procedures as a 
foundation to brewing, I think any newbrewer will have an exceptional chance 
of making good beer. 
 
Steve Johnson 
Music City Brewers 
Nashville, TN 

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From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 07:57:47 -0700
Subject: Flour, Hops and Crass Commercialism

Al K... 
>The whole point of this and my initial post, which Dave seems to havechanged, 
is that flour content should not be the primary measure of the
quality of a crush... the integrity of the husks is far more important! 
 
A breath of fresh air.  There is little that has created more paranoia 
in home brewing than all the ghuru advice about flour, not to mention 
the phone calls from people thinking there is something wrong with 
their brand new MM's because they see a lot of "flour".  When I ask if 
they made beer with it yet, the answer is always no. 
 
The home brew books of the 60's were mostly bad info and the more recent 
ones are mostly good info but there is still a significant 
amount of bad that just will not go away. 
 
>From: Mike Demers <mdemers at ctron.com> 
 
 
>I also tried eliminating the use of hop bags byinstalling my EASYMASHER (tm) 
in my 15 gal. pot
so I could strain the wort through the hops. 
This did not work as well as I thought it would. 
The wort would flow out pretty good for a while 
but then the EM would get clogged up pretty good 
and I had to get in there with a spoon and push 
the hops away from the screen so the flow would speed 
up.  It basically was a nightmare and I don't know 
if I'll try this again. 
 
It really works quite well but there are a few tricks 
to avoid the nightmares. 
 
First of all, you must allow the wort to settle and NEVER 
under any circumstances, stir it.  Forget the whirlpool for 
this critter.  It belongs elsewhere. 
 
 
If hops do get sucked in, the worst thing you can 
do is to stir.  That produces the nightmare.  A gentle 
blow on the end of the hose (you figure out how to do 
it in a sanitary way) will usually clear it up and get 
you through the drain. 
 
I and many others have been using EM's in the kettle for 
years.  It works. 
 
 
>From: Ian Smith <rela!isrs at netcom.com> 
 
>Can someone give me the specifications on the MaltMill (TM) - what length and 
diameter are the rollers ? What is the material of
construction.... 
 
More than you will ever want to know is on our web page. 
 
However, we have just added something that seems newsworthy. 
 
We are now offering hardened steel rollers for the high volume user 
as an option at a modest additional cost. 
 
Seems as how some really heavy users are actually wearing out the 
diamond knurl and having to return them for re-knurling.  Hardening 
them in the first place costs little more than reworking and saves 
downtime. 
 
js 
 
- -- 
Visit our WEB pages: 
Beer Stuff:  http://dezines.com/ at your.service/jsp/ 
Astronomy:   http://user.mc.net/arf/ 
 
 

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From: Daryl K Kalenchuk <dkk886 at mail.usask.ca>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 11:49 -0600 (CST)
Subject: extended RIMS discussion questions

This message began as a private reply to Steve Alexander and others for 
their great responses to my question posted in HBD on RIMS disadvantages 
this is the type of info I was looking for, but it seems that this issue has 
gained some interest now and maybe rekindled some old flames (pun optional). 
I'm not going to summarize or argue anyone since I don't have any data on 
the subject but would appreciate a little input. 
 
Let me begin by clarifying my question about RIMS benefit to sparging.  I 
thought that partial recirculation of the sparge water would decrease sparge 
time but from gaining further understanding of the sparge process that this 
would dramatically decrease my yields.  The only advantage would be the ease 
of recirculating initial and runnings if raking the bed was required. 
 
I had the same concerns regarding heat transfer rates and pump turbulence(as 
Steve) ,not entirely for the same reasons though.  I have thought of two 
modifications and thought I might get your opinion on them.  First heat the 
bottom of the mash tun (assuming it's SS) by a burner or large electrical 
element thus using the entire area of the false bottom to heat that volume 
and recirculating it.  If flow is sufficient and heat flux is not too high 
then scorching wouldn't be a problem but I'm not sure at what levels this 
would be the case.  Secondly instead using an external pump immerse an 
impeller in a vertical column which runs from the an opening in the false 
bottom to an open diffuser at the top of the grain bed.  The impeller would 
only need to produce a small amount of head(lift of liquid) thus shear would 
be minimal as it could run at a very low speed.  Two possible problems with 
this the very advantages of  RIMS.  I'm not sure what my temperature control 
capabilities will be (this is still just an idea) and the ability of this 
low flow pump to move suspended particles back to the top of the grain bed 
for filtering.  Also no pump to double for other tasks. 
 
As an added question are there limitations as to the styles that can be 
produced by a RIMS and do any RIMS people combine the procedure with 
decoctation mashes or can you follow a mash schedule which eliminates the 
need for decoctaions(sorry I had to ask it). 
 
Daryl K. Kalenchuk 
Saskatoon, Canada 
                                               Daryl K. Kalenchuk 
**************************************************************************** 
Advanced Engineering Design Lab.      *         (home) 
University of Saskatchewan            *    403 Egbert Avenue 
Saskatoon, Canada                     *    Saskatoon, Canada  S7N 2S8 
ph.(306) 966-5498                     *    ph. (306) 477-5003 
http://www.aed06.usask.ca/            *    http://www.engr.usask.ca/~dkk886 
**************************************************************************** 
 

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From: Alex Santic <alex at salley.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:51:25 -0400
Subject: IBU calculation

Paul Bryan would like to calculate the number of IBUs the recipe below = 
might result in, using a 3 gallon concentrated boil. I believe that Paul = 
wanted to try the Tinseth formulas which seems like a good idea to me. 
 
Honey Ale=20 
   6 lb Light LME=20 
   .5 lb Light DME=20 
   .5 lb Belgium Biscuit Malt=20 
   .5 lb Crystal Malt=20 
   1 oz Columbus Hops (12.4%) 60 min=20 
   1 oz Cascade Hops (5.5%) 20 min=20 
   1.5 lb Orange Blossum Honey 20 min=20 
   1 oz cascade Hops (5.5%) steep=20 
   O.G. 1.045=20 
   F.G. 1.013=20 
   IBU's ?=20 
=20 
It's easy to calculate the SG of the boil by multiplying the extract = 
potential of each ingredient by the number of lbs, then taking the sum = 
of all these and dividing by the number of gallons. The LME would be = 
contributing about 1.035 points per lb/gal, the DME about 1.045 and the = 
specialty grains I dunno but 1.020 seems to work in my calculations. = 
Doesn't make a big difference in such quantities. 
 
(6 * 35 + .5 * 45 + 1 * 20) / 3 =3D 84.17 
 
So the SG of the boil is about 1.084. Using this figure for the = 
utilization calculation gives you about 40 IBUs, not taking the honey = 
into account. You could do a calculation for the SG after adding honey, = 
but it only affects the 20-minute hop addition which contributed 8 IBUs = 
in the original calculation. I'd just estimate 36 IBUs or so...it's all = 
pretty approximate anyway. 
 
Honey ferments pretty completely I hear, so that should contribute = 
mostly flavor and alcohol. The remaining ingredients should add up to a = 
fairly light but tasty brew. In terms of balance, I'd predict this beer = 
would have a distinct (probably nice) bitter edge. 
 
Those who'd like to investigate the utilization formula used above can = 
check out Glenn Tinseth's article at = 
http://realbeer.com/hops/research.html. The online IBU calculator that = 
Paul referred to in his original message is at = 
http://realbeer.com/hops/IBU.html. Note that there's an error on some of = 
the forms where it says "Boil Volume" whereas you actually need to enter = 
the final volume of the batch. 
 
- -- 
Alex Santic - alex at salley.com 
Silicon Alley Connections, LLC 
527 Third Avenue #419 - NYC 10016 - 212-213-2666 - Fax 212-447-9107 
http://www.salley.com 
 
 

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From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:59:15 -0400
Subject: The Pressures of Hosing

Daryl K Kalenchuk posed a good point on the hose pressure thread: 
 
"Assuming turbulent flow in the beer lines occurs I have to question Al's 
comment that shaking the keg creates eddies which harbour nucleation sites 
for CO2.  Turbulent flow would create the same opportunity for nucleation. 
Do you believe it's because of the short time (about 5 sec) that the beer 
will flow through the lines if so the first third of the second pouring 
should be foamy also, no?" 
 
I once fell for the psi per foot theory, happily adding a mile or so of 3/16" 
tubing onto my keg.  What I got was slow, foamy beer.  I then went back to 
the short length of 1/4" tubing and tried a small C-clamp to see if I could 
tweak in just the right drop.  Foam city again.  The turbulence created in 
these scenarios, I believe, is causing the very problem we're trying to 
solve.  I now use the shortest practical length of 1/4" tubing, with my 
regulator set to 10 - 12 psi and using door-mount beer faucets.  I open the 
tap full-blast to serve.  My first pour usually runs 1/2 foam + 1/2 beer; 
after that I get a pretty decent serve.  Based on comparison with beer styles 
& carbonation charts, I'd estimate my beers have somewhere slightly under 2 
volumes of carbonation, which works fine for my ales. 
 
***** 
 
Ken Schwartz 
El Paso, TX 
KennyEddy at aol.com 
http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy 

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From: DENNIS WALTMAN <PDWALTMAN at sablaw.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:46:47 -0400
Subject: Specialty Beer Category

I have a question for the digest collective: 
 
Would a beer that used First Wort Hopping count as a Specialty Beer by 
the AHA style guidelines? 
 
It uses a non-standard technique, but how non-standard is it, and is 
it enough for the style? 
 
Thanks in Advance, 
 
Dennis Waltman 
Sutherland, Asbill, & Brennan 
pdwaltman at sablaw.com 

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From: RUSt1d? <rust1d at li.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 15:31:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Spec Beer Cat and N.O.

>Would a beer that used First Wort Hopping count as a Specialty Beer by 
>the AHA style guidelines? 
 
No more then dry-hopping. When you add the hops to your brew does not 
make it a Specialty beer. However, from what I understand, you can 
enter your beer into whatever catagory you like. It just won't score 
well if it didn't belong. 
 
NEW ORLEANS 
If you were recently in 'Nawlins or happen to live there I would like 
information about the city. I will be honeymooning there in mid-october 
and am wondering whats cool. I'm not just looking for brewpubs, but 
rather anything else that's cool to do. TIA. 
 
 
 
John Varady 
Boneyard Brewing Co. 
"Ale today, Gone tomorrow" 
 

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From: Special Events <spevents at postoffice.ptd.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 15:45:51 +0000
Subject: Seminar Correction

Just a note: 
In the information about the Great Brews of America Homebrew Seminar 
Day, it stated that judging would be done by AHA certifies judges.  It 
was meant to read BJCP judges.  Sorry about the error. 
Cheers! 
Melissa Simock 
 
- -Thanks Mark! 

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From: Kelly Jones <kejones at ptdcs2.intel.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:05:35 -0700
Subject: Re: RIMS with other grains

SA> RIMS recirculation is probably not possible with very sticky 
SA> mashes, for example those that include a high proportion of wheat, 
SA> rye and perhaps rice. 
 
The last Wit I made in my RIMS included about 45% wheat, most of which was 
raw white wheat, a little bit was wheat malt.  Absolutely no problems with 
recirculation, but you can bet I did extensive multi-step protein resting. 
Fortunately, multi-step mashes are a cinch with RIMS. 
 
Kelly 
Hillsboro, OR 

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From: Jeff Frane <jfrane at teleport.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:06:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Just Hops changed hands

Speaking of Just Hops: I contacted them to check on availability of British 
hop pellets, 
and got this response from Mark: 
 
>Just Hops has switched hands. I've decided to spend  more time with the 
>family and less time packing hops and more time actually brewing beer. Call 
>1800 934 BREW and they will be able to help you out. Ask for Duane. Thanks 
>for your support and good luck to you! 
 
I called Duane yesterday, and was told that he had not yet received the 
shipment of hops from Just Hops but it was on the way.  WIth luck, Duane 
won't be raising prices from what JH was charging.  I did find out that there 
were some British hops (Challenger, Target, etc.) available in pellets. Hooray.
 
- --Jeff Frane 
 

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From: "Bernard D Hummel" <hummelbe at pilot.msu.edu>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 16:51:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Hop and grain storage; Seasonal Ale Recipe Request; Carboyss

 
I have been lurking for a while and saving up some questions for the 'experts'.
 Please bear with my beginner questions.  I apologize if these questions came 
up recently, I can't keep up with this HBD two-a-day stuff. 
 
    Question 1:  Can hops be stored in the freezer?  This seems logical but I 
        commercial suppliers do not.  They just refrigerate.  Am I missing 
        something?  I only use commercial (dried) hops but use pellets, plugs 
        and whole.  BYW, anyone know where you can get oxygen impermeable 
        plastic bags (do Ziplock freezer bags work)? 
 
Question 2: Whats the best way to store malted grains (crushed and whole).     
        Is it OK if I store crushed grain in a plastic bag at basement temp 
        (65F)?  How long will it keep? 
 
    Recipes:  I love to collect recipes for homebrew.  Anyone have a good 
        recipe for a Pumkin/Spiced Ale?  'Tis the season to be thinking of 
        these.  I'm not up for all grain so I need extract-specialty grain or 
partial mash recipes. Your comments on how the recipe turned out would         
        be greatly appreciated. (for my private use only) 
 
    My thoughts on carboys:  I currently don't use a carboy much because I 
        think that they are APITA.  Anyone know of a manufacturer of carboys 
        with wide-mouth openings (big enough to get your arm down in it for 
        cleaning)?  My idea of the perfect carboy is one with a wide mouth and 
        some sort of spigot near the bottom.  I would certainly buy one if I 
        could find it. 
 
Thanks for all those who take time to respond.  BTW, I think some people 
underestimate the usefullness of public posts to begginner questions.  I for 
one get a lot out of them (Just my 2 pennys worth). That being said, public or 
private responses to my questions are greatly appreciated. 
 
 -- Ben Hummel 
    hummelbe at pilot.msu.edu 
 
 

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From: John Chang <75411.142 at CompuServe.COM>
Date: 19 Sep 96 17:00:11 EDT
Subject: JSP Maltmill, retail beer prices

Hey Guys! 
 
Having digested all of the malt mill discussions submitted over the last few 
months, I have talked myself into acquiring a JSP Maltmill.  How much should I 
expect to pay for one, and are there different models available?  I would like 
to aquire a mill prior to my next brewing session as all of my prior batches 
were made with precrushed malt.  Private email welcomed, and by all means, if 
you have any other words of advice/warning/praise, by all means please include 
them. 
 
*******************************************************************************
 
On another note, I have seen the import and microbrew sections of  local 
supermarkets ( Southern California) expand tremendously over the last year. 
Several of them now regularly stock over 150 brands (too bad!).  As they all 
regularly put selected  sixers and individual beers on *sale*, the question 
occurred to me: what does the rest of the country pay for these? 
 
If it provides enough general interest, I will accept, compile, and post retail
prices for all of the beers that folks wish to report from their part of the 
country. 
 
John Chang 
75411.142 at compuserve.com 
 

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