---

   FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
        Shawn Steele, Digest Janitor
        Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!

Contents:
  Real world rims experience ("Norman Brewer")
  Brewing Beers Like Those You Buy (MadAntBrew at aol.com)
  Re: Ferm-Cap, Carboys ((Mike Uchima))
  Hop Removal, Corn Meal Adjunct, ("David R. Burley")
  WYeast 2206 drift ? ("Frederick L. Pauly")
  Water Softeners ((A. J. deLange))
  the definitive Oktoberfest? (Tom Lombardo)
  RE:  Scorching ("Dave Eddington")
  RIMS. (Geoff Bagley)
  Re: Corn Meal as ajunct? (Jeff Renner)
  Classic American Pilsner recognized! (Jeff Renner)
  Re: scorching (Jeff Renner)
  Waiting to pitch (Aaron Sepanski)
  Dwarf Hops in U.S.? (Charles Capwell)
  ?? (Schwab_Bryan at CCMAIL.ncsc.navy.mil)
  Homebrew Seminar Day (Special Events)
  Who wants Cascades Rhizomes? (Brad Anesi)
  No Sparge with Concentrated Wort Boil (( 0 Hadley_Scott x5921 B-077 ))
  Re: fire extinguishers (Joseph Kral)
  No-sparge and 'Yummy Malt Flavor' (Steve Stroud)
  cold fermentation/pale ale malt ((BAYEROSPACE))
  watch out for bees ((BAYEROSPACE))
  Copper/Priming ("Brian Thompson")
  Waiting mail  (msg.aa21846) (aob.org AOB Mail Delivery System try --)
  1997 AHA Conf. ? ("Curt Speaker")
  Dry-Hopping in Lagers ((JIM ANDERSON))
  300 Gallon Kettle? ((Craig Wynn))

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Norman Brewer" <NLBREWE at msn.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 96 19:16:10 UT
Subject: Real world rims experience

I have a rims system with 72 inch heating element and have brewed about 12 
batches with it so far.  I use the heating element to raise the temperature of 
the mash, and while it is raising the temperature, the heat is full on, 
providing about 1200 watts of heat.  I remove the element after each batch, 
and have noticed that it usually is covered with a soft tan colored film which 
easily washes off.  There is no scorched material on the element, and no 
carbonization is evident.  This was not always the case when I brewed in a pot 
on a propane heater. 
 
The circulating wort is transparent and the color depends on the type of beer 
being brewed.  Basically everything that goes into the boil is clear, but 
there is still lots of hot break and cold break material precipitated out in 
the boil and cooling.  From the boil on, the brewing cycle is exactly the same 
as with any other mashing technique. 
 
I typically get 30-32 specific gravity points per pound of grain,  have no 
problems with fermentation, and brew excellent beers with the rims system, so 
I'm happy. 

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From: MadAntBrew at aol.com
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 17:28:31 -0400
Subject: Brewing Beers Like Those You Buy

I just picked up a copy of this book at my local library looking for some new 
info to read. It has a great collection of English stye bitters, pales, 
old-ales etc., my kind of beers!!! The book was published in1978 when 
homebrewing methods and supplies were not as they are today and many of the 
recipes include "light or dark brown sugar, demerara sugar and saccharin 
tablets!" My question is , are these outdated ingredients? Does brown sugar 
add some wanted character to these beers as opposed to being cidery.I can't 
imagine adding saccharin to beer, I know it won't ferment and will add 
residual sweetness but I think I'll stick to crystal or cara-pils. Any 
thoughts or experience with these recipes or ingredients? 

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From: uchima at fncrd8.fnal.gov (Mike Uchima)
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 12:45:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Ferm-Cap, Carboys

Rob Moline <brewer at kansas.net> wrote: 
> Boy, lots of banch on this one!  Here's a thought....try "Ferm-Cap" 
> and forget the whole bloody thing! Manufactured by Siebel, distributed by 
> Crosby and Baker, this stuff is an emulsion of various stuff, that 'caps' 
> the fermentation, and prevents blow-off from ever being an issue. 
 
I dunno... call me reactionary or whatever, but I'm just kind of reluctant to 
add a bunch of who-knows-what to my beer. Even Polyclar gives me the 
jitters... (Add powdered *plastic* to my beer? You've gotta be kidding! :-)) 
 
I just make sure I leave a lot of headspace in my primary. The only time 
blowoff has been a serious problem for me was with Wyeast #3068... that yeast 
should come with a warning label! 
 
...and also: 
> Personally, I loved my carboys, all four of them. They never were a 
> PITA to me. Once emptied and rinsed, filled with H2O to the shoulder and 
> carried to the fermenting room, (the unused second bathroom) and then filled 
> to the top with clorox, they were self cleaning and sanitizing until the 
> next rinse and fill with wort. Oh, well, different strokes for different 
> folks! 
 
Yeah, I'll have to second this. After I empty my carboys, I just rinse, put 
about 1/3 cup of bleach in them, and top them off with cold water. After 
sitting for a few days, they are sparkling clean. Some people must have a very 
low tolerance for PITA-ness... :-) 
 
- -- Mike Uchima 
- -- uchima at fncrd8.fnal.gov 

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From: "David R. Burley" <103164.3202 at CompuServe.COM>
Date: 22 Sep 96 18:39:27 EDT
Subject: Hop Removal, Corn Meal Adjunct,

Brewsters: 
 
Steve Kemp wants to know of a good way to remove hops from the chilled boil 
kettle. The best method I have ever seen for hot or cold wort is to use a Chore
Boy (R) unsoaped (copper or SS) scrubbing pad at the bottom of the racking 
cane.
insert the cane about halfway into Chore Boy. wire it in place with a bare, 
heavy copper wire. Place it at the edge of the bottom of the whirlpooled kettle
and syphon. Works great at filtering out the hops and the trub. 
- ------------------------------------------------------- 
Ajunde asked about using Corn Meal as an adjunct. 
 
It works fine if you cook it separately before adding it to the mash. Usually 
about 20-30 minutes. If you don't add enough water you can always have corn 
meal
mush or polenta while it is hot.  Let it stand overnight and cool to room T or 
lower and you can slice and fry it and serve with butter and syrup. Delicious! 
 
I prefer instant grits.  I suspect these can be used without precooking, but 
have never tried it. 
 
I also have another method I detailed a few weeks ago in which I use 2# pale 
malt, milled and bring this adjunct plus malt up to boil slowly ( 2 deg/min) or
stage it up through saccharification and then boil. this substantially reduces 
the viscosity.  Cooking this a long time ( say 30-60 min) gives what I call a 
pseudo-decoction mash of the adjuncts.  Use this latter method to boost the 
maltiness and increase the color  of your American Lager. 
- --------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Keep on brewin' 
 
 
Dave Burley 
Kinnelon, NJ 07405 
103164.3203 at compuserve.com 
 

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From: "Frederick L. Pauly" <flp2m at galen.med.virginia.edu>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 18:52:03 -0400
Subject: WYeast 2206 drift ?

Three years ago I brewed an extract Marzen using Irekes Amber 
Extract, Hall.&Tetn. hops and Wyeast 2206 Bavarian Yeast. 
This beer had a wonderful spicy flavor. I contributed the spice 
to the yeast. But recently I brewed 2 all grain beers and used 
Wyeast 2206 and no spicy flavor. 
Has the yeast changed or was it the malt extract that gave the 
beer 
it's spicey flavor? 
 
Rick Pauly 
NucMed Tech 
Charlottesville,Va. 

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From: ajdel at interramp.com (A. J. deLange)
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 22:53:30 -0500
Subject: Water Softeners

David Sprague asked about brewing with softened water. His post indicates 
that he is aware of the principal result of softening with the usual type 
of home softener: all the cations [ Ca++, Mg++,K+, Fe(++/+++)] are replaced 
by Na+ and the anions are unchanged. The problem with this is where the 
hardness is largely carbonate. Such water is highly alkaline but where the 
bicarbonate is paired with calcium one can remove some of it easily by 
simply boiling the water or depend upon the reactions of the calcium ions 
with phosphate in the grist to lower the pH into the proper range. If the 
calcium is absent neither of these options remains. Sodium is more or less 
of a "don't care" ion except where it is present to the extent that the 
beer tastes salty. I leave judgements as to the health effects of sodium to 
the individual. Softeners are now available which replace the cations with 
potassium for those who are concerned about sodium intake. 
 
David says the water in his area has 13 degrees of hardness. Where are you? 
Degrees usually means German degrees but there are also British and French 
degrees and the US unit of 1 mg/L as CaCO3 is sometimes called a degree so 
tell us what the unit is (or let us try to guess from your location) and we 
will be in a better postion to comment on how hard the water is and what to 
do about it. Some beers are brewed with very hard water with no problem. 
 
A.J. deLange   Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore! 
ajdel at interramp.com 
 
 

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From: Tom Lombardo <favt3tl at rvcux1.RVC.CC.IL.US>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 18:40:52 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: the definitive Oktoberfest?

OK, I don't know much about the Oktoberfest style.  I just picked up a six 
of Sam Adams Oktoberfest.  I know Sam is usually an "Americanized" 
(watered down) version of most styles, so I'm asking, what commercial brew 
is to Oktoberfest  what Guinness is to Stout? 
 
I think I read in the HBD that Munich malt is typically used in 
Oktoberfest, but the Sam's label doesn't mention it.  It says crystal, 
caramel and harrington malts are used.  (Harrington?) 
 
Opinions? 
 
Tom (in Rockford IL, for you geographically curious types) 
 
 
Homebrew - It's good for what ALES you! 
 
Tom Lombardo (favt3tl at rvcux1.rvc.cc.il.us) 
 
 
 

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From: "Dave Eddington" <homebrew at aristotle.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 17:16:46 -0600
Subject: RE:  Scorching

 Scott Murman <smurman at best.com> wrote: 
<SNIP> 
> Stainless steel is desirable from a non-reactive point of view, but its 
thermal >properties for cooking leave much to be desired.  One of the 
reasons that heavy >gauge aluminum cookware is popular is that it will 
evenly distribute the heat through >the entire cooking pot, rather than 
letting it pass through easily and concentrate >above the heating element. 
 
Is this a commonly known fact?  Is aluminum really that much better than 
S.S. for cookware?  Why does every home (or commercial for that matter) 
brewery use S.S. for mash tuns, boilers and hot liquor tanks if it causes 
"hot spots"? 
 
> Unfortunately, heavy gauge aluminum would be far too expensive for a 10 
or 15 >gallon pot. 
 
I gotta disagree.  I visited my local restaurant supply house and saw (IMO) 
heavy gauge aluminum 40 qt. stockpots for about $70.  Less than half the 
price of a comparable Vollrath S.S.!  I would have long since picked one 
up, but it seems we never have decided whether or not aluminum makes good 
breware.  I don't mean to kick up the Alzheimer's/off-taste thread, but I'm 
beginning to understand why it's a popular question.  Aluminum pots are 
cheaper, and now it seems that they're better heat conductors.  My question 
is why isn't EVERYBODY using them?  I'm ready to put an end to this fear of 
aluminum once and for all.  If somebody will send me a pint of 
aluminum-brewed homebrew (all-grain preferably, so it'll include mash and 
boil), I'll pay to get the lab analysis done to see exactly how much Al is 
leached into our beer during brewing.  If it's very little to none, then 
we'll know there is no problem.  If it's a lot, then we'll back up, 
regroup, and decide whether or not it matters.  I'm serious. 
******************************* 
Dave Eddington 
Little Rock, AR 
Homebrew at aristotle.net 

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From: Geoff Bagley <geoff at gcbagley.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 22:47:35 +0100
Subject: RIMS.

Can someone please tell me what RIMS is ? 
regards, 
Geoff Bagley 

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From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 96 22:13:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Corn Meal as ajunct?

AJUNDE at ccmail.monsanto.com asks: 
> I've been itching to ask this question since my visit to Chippewa 
> Falls last year.  Linenkugles uses corn meal as an ajunct.  I assume 
> this it to raise the alcohol content and lighten the body, but, how 
> 
> Can you add it directly to the mash, or should you boil it first? 
 
Corn does much more than you suggest, it adds a wonderful flavor and 
sweetness.  It goes especially well with the characteristics of 6-row 
malt. 
 
Brewers use brewer's corn grits, which are degerminated and de-branned 
pieces of endosperm.  They are coarser than cornmeal.  Flaking grits are 
from 0.132 inch to 0.223, coarse grits 0.0512 to 0.797 inch, and regular 
grits from 0.0234 0.0512 inch.  Cornmeal is from 0.0098 to 0.0234 inch. 
 
If you use degerminated cornmeal (not whole corn meal), this would work 
as well.  The germ contains corn oil which could be a problem in head 
retention, although I believe Jack Schmidling has posted here success 
with using Corona milled whole corn.  You do have boil either first to 
gelatinize the starch, and should use about 10% crushed malt with it to 
keep it from turning into a lump.  You can add this "porridge" to the 
rest of the mash which is at a protein rest of 122F to boost it to 
saccharification temperature, although the temperature arrived at will 
depend on how much corn you use and may require adjustment. 
 
A much simpler way to use corn is to use brewer's flaked corn, which is 
made from passing wetted flaking grits through heated rollers.  This 
gelatinizes the starches, eliminating the need for boiling them.  This 
isn't commercially feasible due to their increased cost, but it is for 
homebrewers. 
 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu 
 

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From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 96 22:18:22 -0400
Subject: Classic American Pilsner recognized!

The style I proposed in HBD more than a year ago and in a Brewing 
Techniques article a year ago, Classic American Pilsner, made with 
20-25% corn (and preferably 6-row malt) and hopped like a Continental 
Pilsener, has been added to the 1997 AHA style guidelines.  It will be a 
substyle of classic Pilseners, with German and Bohemian Pilseners as the 
others.  Thanks to James Spence at AHA and George Fix, Pete Garofalo and 
Del Lansing for helping make this come about. 
 
This style is really tasty - I like it better than Reinheitsgebot 
Pilseners, and so do many others.  In blind tastings, where tasters 
haven't been told about the corn (which might prejudice them), it is 
immensely popular, even with homebrewers, according to George.  I just 
served some to a friend who pronounced it the best beer she had ever 
tasted.  So much for the mega-breweries idea that beer has to be 
tasteless to appeal to women.  I hope many of you will brew it this 
winter and enter it in competitions in 1997.  You'll like it!  It's a 
part of our heritage. 
 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu 
 

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From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 96 22:18:35 -0400
Subject: Re: scorching

Scott Murman <smurman at best.com> said 
>   Unfortunately, heavy gauge aluminum would be far too 
>   expensive for a 10 or 15 gallon pot. 
 
Au contraire, mon frere!  My ten gallon, 5mm thick aluminum pots cost 
about $80 with lids and shipping from a restaurant supply house, far 
less than ss.  (And to head off a repeat of the aluminum thread, 
aluminum pots do not cause a higher level of aluminum in the wort, do 
not cause a metallic taste in beer, and do not cause Alzheimer's 
Disease.  Anyone wanting to dispute this, please check the HBD archives 
where it has been beat to death.) 
 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu 
 

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From: Aaron Sepanski <sepanska at it.uwp.edu>
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 22:14:36 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Waiting to pitch

Just wanted to let everyone know about a recent mishap gone good, or OK 
actually.  I recently made a batch of beer with a friend, same batch side 
by side, and it got so late that we didn't want to pitch until morning, 
which was in a few hours.  We both agreeded that this would be fine. 
Well he had all the "beer" and stuff at his house, and had to go out of 
town and the drop of a dime.  So we were unable to pitch until 3 nights 
later.  I have often heard that you should pitch asap, to help the yeast 
out compete the bacteria in the beer.  However, when racked of the 
sediment left over, there was no evidence of bacteria at all.  No off 
flavor, and no evidence of "fermentation" by the bacteria.  The wort 
tasted as good, clean, and sweet as when I poured it into the carboy. 
This proves that the wort was completely sterile at the time I put it in 
the carboy, and at the time I pitched.  This also proves obviously, that 
it remained sterile while in the carboy those three nights.  Thius all 
sewems to make sense in retrospect.  There aren't many bacteria that can 
maitain life at boiling temperature (there are a few.  There are bacteria 
that live in hot springs that have enzymes compatable to that temp.). 
These temperatures are to extreme for the proteins (enzymes) in the 
bacteria cell.  This exactly why it is advantageous to cool the wort 
asap.  As the temp lowers ther are more and more types of bacteria that 
can live in the wort.  But chilling fast and racking into a sterile 
carboy, sealed by a sterile fermentation lock almost gaurantees success. 
Look at how many batches that we collectively have brewed without 
problems.  Another key feature of the fermentation lock is that is 
contains water.  Off hand, I can't think of many bacteria that are both 
aerial and aquatic, although I'm sure that there are some.  This is 
another feature that helps keep the wrot bacteria free. 
 
I guess the point is....  Don't wait 3 days to pitch as I did.  Pitching 
asap so the yeast can begin producing alcohol is sound advice.  Unlike 
yeast, there are virtually no bacteria that are alcohol tolerant.  Some 
strains can take some, but yest are comfortable all the way up to ~15% 
(yeast can produce more alcohol in a higher concentration than this).  So 
this is really sound advice.  But what I'm saying is don't neccesarily 
throw out your wort if you run into situations such as these.  It worked 
out for us, so it's worth checking first. 
 
Some other key notes. 
 
All sterilization was done with bleach at a concentraion of about 10-15% 
 
Beer was stored in the dark at a standard room temperature of 70 +/- 2 
degrees. 
 
Gravity= 1.061. 
 
Carboys were sealed with fermentaion locks filled with ordinary water. 
 
 
Thanks for taking the time to read this post. 
 
Aaron Sepanski 
 
P.S.  Any comments or questions i invite personal email 
 
Thanks again! 

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From: Charles Capwell <chas at A119008.sat1.as.crl.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 03:31:42 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Dwarf Hops in U.S.?

Howdy ya'll, 
 
While I was perusing the net this morning I came across an article 
concerning dwarf hops(http://www.breworld.com/the_brewer/9601/br4.html). 
This was apparently a professional paper aimed at the UK. However, I've 
been interested trying to grow my own hops, but unfortunately don't 
really have access to the height needed to grow regular hops. This 
article gave me hope though, stating that the optimum height for the 
dwarf hop varities is 8 ft. 
 
My fiance's sister has a fenced in(rectangular metal wire) yard and 
has been slowly growing traditional vines to attempt to cover it. 
Given the speed at which hops grow, she's agreeable to let me try using 
her yard for hops sometime. 
 
So, does anyone know if or where I could possibly purchase the rhizomes 
for the First Gold varity? This sounds like the best bet out of three 
mentioned in the article. Also if someone knows where I could actually 
get my hands on some of these hops to use in my brewing, I'd be 
really grateful! :> 
 
- -Chas (chas at crl.com) 
 
 

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From: Schwab_Bryan at CCMAIL.ncsc.navy.mil
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 96 06:52:00 CDT
Subject: ??

     Just wonderin' if anyone out the in the Land of Lincoln has heard the 
     results of the "Second Annual Brewers Dream" results which was held on 
     the 8th of this month at Mickey Finns in Libertyville.  Been tryin to 
     make contact with Steve Howard, but he has switched jobs and no luck 
     yet.... 
 
     Private E-mail is fine. 
 
     Thanks, and now I return you to your regularly scheduled digest 
 
     Bryan 
     Schwab_Bryan at ccmail.Ncsc.Navy.Mil 
 

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From: Special Events <spevents at postoffice.ptd.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 10:10:05 +0000
Subject: Homebrew Seminar Day

The Homebrew Seminar Day on November 22, 1996 is being hosted by The 
Resort at Split Rock in Lake Harmony, PA 18624.  Lake Harmony is about 
1 1/2 hours north of Philadelphia.  For directions, please call 
1-800-255-7625. 

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From: Brad Anesi <BANESI at novell.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 08:22:55 -0600
Subject: Who wants Cascades Rhizomes?

Saturday was spent picking hops and thinning the roots, which leads to 
the following questions and an offer... 
1) What makes for better (and faster) hop propagation - mature (thick) or 
immature (thin) root stock? 
2) When is a better time to plant - now or spring?  If spring, how should 
the root/rhizome be handled for the winter - refrigerated, dried, cellared? 
3) And finally, who wants some Cascade rhizomes???  I've got plenty 
and would be happy to send some out to interested parties.  Exchange 
Saaz, Hallertauer, Tettanger, or ??? rhizomes would be nice, but is not 
required.   Just send me your address and watch for an answer to the 
aforementioned questions. 
 
Brad (banesi at novell.com) 
Northern New Jersey 
 

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From: hadleyse at pweh.com ( 0 Hadley_Scott x5921 B-077 )
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 12:16:05 -0400
Subject: No Sparge with Concentrated Wort Boil

I've been very interested in the no sparge thread.  I hope to try it in 
my next batch to save time without sacrificing quality.  I'm also 
considering topping off the cool wort in the fermenter with cold 
dechlorinated water and ice cubes instead of adding water to the boiler 
before boiling the wort to reach the desired gravity.  This would allow 
me to get the wort to a boil sooner and chill faster since there is less 
wort to go through my counter flow chiller.  I've read somewhere that 
one thing you can do to improve the quality of your brew is to do a full 
wort boil but I'm not sure why.  Would there be any sacrifice in the 
quality of the resulting brew because of the concentrated wort boil 
other than decreased hop utilization and an added risk of wort 
carmelization?  I imagine appropriately increasing the hops and careful 
monitoring of the boil would solve those potential problems.  Is there 
any reduction in the quality of the brew because of the addition of cold 
dechlorinated tap water and ice cubes to the already cool wort (less 
than 80 deg. F).  Since the wort is already cool I wouldn't imagine HSA 
would be a problem. 
 
Thanks, 
 
Scott Hadley in Hartford CT 

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From: Joseph Kral <kral at hpljlk.hpl.hp.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 9:41:51 PDT
Subject: Re: fire extinguishers

 > 
 > Hello: 
 > I'm trying to brew my stout right now, but the old cracked hose to 
 > my propane stove just started to leak and caught fire.  It quickly 
 > burned through and started to whoosh around like a "Willy the 
 > Water Weasel" but with fire coming out instead of water.  I can't 
 > get to the gas to turn it off with this flying around so,  it has not 
 > started my curtains and a set of cabinets to flame.   My question 
 > is, what kind of a fire extinguisher should I but to put this out?  If I 
 > get a CO2 extinguisher could this double as a keg gas supply? 
 > Now a water extinguisher is cheaper AND cheaper and easier to 
 > refill, but you can't use them on an electric fire.  You would 
 > REALLY have to convince me to go HALON gas, too expensive. 
 > Anyway the fire is spreading so any ideas? 
 > 
 
 My appologies for the last message with no reply.... 
 
 Anyway, halon would be great except with the passing of the Montreal 
 protocol limiting/banning CFC's (which halon extiguishers contain), you can 
 no longer get them. If you do happen to find one somewhere, it'll be a use 
 once affair for the same reasons. There might be a suitable replacement 
 about, but I haven't seen any yet. CO2 would be your next best choice. You 
 wouldn't want to use it as a keg gas supply lest it be empty just when you 
 need it! Of course the real solution is to keep your gas hoses in good 
 condition. 
 
 -- 
 Joseph Kral 
 Hewlett-Packard Laboratories 
 kral at hpljlk.hpl.hp.com 
 

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From: Steve Stroud <strouds at cliffy.polaroid.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 12:55:00 +0000
Subject: No-sparge and 'Yummy Malt Flavor'

I have been using the no-sparge technique occasionally for the past few 
years (for special batches of beer).  It is my experience that one 
extracts about 2/3 of the sugars from a mash by draining without 
sparging (assuming that Fix's basic procedure is followed).   My yields 
have consistently been in the range of 20-21 pts/lb/gallon using this 
procedure.  I echo Louis Bonham's comments about saving time and 
increasing the quality of a beer at the cost of a few $$ per batch. 
 
 
Steve Stroud 
strouds at polaroid.com 
 
 
BTW, I submitted George Fix's no-sparge essay to The Brewery's archive 
about six months ago.  It can be found at: 
 
http://alpha.rollanet.org/library/YMltGF92.html 
 
Note that there are several numerical errors in the original version 
that Louis Bonham posted in HBD 2198.  The most glaring is the grain 
bill for the experimental batch (# kg are incorrect).  The numbers 
should read: 
 
> EXPERIMENTAL BATCH 
>       Brew Size = 50 liters (13.2 gals.) 
> Grain Bill = 15.3 kg. pale malt (33.75 lbs.), 1.36 kg. crystal (3 lbs.)      
>       Mash Water = 44 liters (11.6 gals.) 
>       Water Directly Added to Kettle = 20 liters (5.3 gals.) 
>       Vol. at the Start of Boil = 56 liters (14.8 gals.) 
>       Starting Gravity = 1.060 (15 deg. Plato) 
 
 
This works out to ~21.6 pts/lb/gal.  Fix's control batch delivered ~28.7 
pts/lb/gal. 

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From: M257876 at sl1001.mdc.com (BAYEROSPACE)
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 12:24 -0600
Subject: cold fermentation/pale ale malt

collective homebrew conscience: 
 
scott asked about his lager fermentation: 
 
>The starting gravity was 1.049 and after 5 days at a temp of 46 dF 
>the SpG was 1.026.  It was racked to my scondary and the new 
>temp, day 6-21, was 36-38 dF.  The SpG on day 21 was 1.024. 
>   How am I doing?  Is the temp OK?  Will the gravity drop to the 
>correct value for this style (1.008-1.012) ? 
>    I used a starter with Wyeast 2124 (Bohemian)  and aerated well. 
 
 
in my experience with #2124, i've never taken it that cold quite so soon in 
the fermentation (5 days).  if i were you, i'd keep checking the gravity 
every 3 or 4 days, and if you see it stop dropping, maybe you should let 
the temperature back up to the low 40's and rouse the yeast.  or, if you 
have another batch of helles planned, pitch a little freshly fermenting wort 
to re-energize the fermentation.  you may not have anything to worry about, 
if you see the gravity continue to drop (even if it's quite slow). 
 
from what i've read, many german brewers will start the primary fermentation 
at a low temperature (low 40's), and then let the temperature rise as 
the primary continues, up to the high forties or low 50's. this is, i believe, 
done to help reduce diacetyl.  then the temperature is gradually dropped for 
the secondary fermentation/lagering stage.  this practice is used for yeast 
strains that are weak diacetyl reducers.  i have always just used #2124 at 
around 50 - 54 deg F for the primary and then ramped the temperature down 
gradually for the secondary and lagering stage.  my beers have never ended up 
with high levels of diacetyl using this fermentation schedule. 
 
starting a primary fermentation at 46 deg F and then taking the temp down 
after 5 days and a gravity change of 1.049 to 1.026 may be a technique that 
will produce higher levels of diacetyl, depending on the yeast.  this would 
be a good test to see if #2124 can be run this way without excess diacetyl 
remaining in the finished beer.  so scott, if your gravity continues to drop 
slowly and you don't have to resort to raising the temperature back up to 
get the yeast going again, let us know how the beer tastes when it's ready. 
i'm curious to know how cold you can run #2124 without diacetyl problems. 
 
 
 
Alex Santic wrote: 
 
>I'm planning on brewing a British-style IPA tomorrow 
>I went out in 
>search of British 2-row pale malt. There was none to be found 
>What I bought instead is American 2-row (I think the maltster was 
>Briess). Assuming this is less well-modified malt than the British and I 
>do a protein rest rather than just a single-step infusion mash, is there 
>anything objectionable to using 2 or 3 pounds of this in a partial mash 
>recipe for an IPA? 
 
there is absolutely nothing wrong with using domestic 2-row in an ipa, but 
the kilning given to domestic pale is often lighter than the kilning used for 
pale ale malt.  apart from having different flavor characteristics as a result 
of the higher kilning, this process also reduces the precursors of dimethyl 
sulfide in pale ale malt.  so dms can creep into your ale if you use domestic, 
whereas it's not as likely to happen with pale ale malt.  quick wort chilling 
will minimize dms production.  it may not turn out quite as 'british' as you 
want it, due to the malt flavor difference, but in an ipa, the hoppiness is 
really going to override a lot of the subtleties of the malt profile. 
 
the assumption that domestic malt is less well 
modified than british malt may be valid, but from what i read it's not as 
dramatic a difference as the difference used to be (years ago) between 
british malt and continental european varieties.  british malt got its 
reputation for being highly modified by being compared to the malts used on 
the continent (which were often decoction mashed). 
 
>Any pertinent comments within the next 36 hours would be well 
>appreciated. 
 
okay, maybe this a little late. 
 
brew hard, 
 
mark bayer 
 
 
 

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From: M257876 at sl1001.mdc.com (BAYEROSPACE)
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 13:24 -0600
Subject: watch out for bees

collective homebrew conscience: 
 
i noticed a few bees buzzing around this weekend while i was enjoying some 
lager on the back patio.  they are attracted to the smell of brew, apparently. 
 
my wife works with a man who was out over the weekend with some of his friends.
one of them accidentally swallowed a bee that had flown into his beer, still 
alive.  the bee stung him internally, he went into anaphylactic shock, his 
throat swelled, and he died before the ambulance arrived.  people nearby 
attempted cpr, to no avail. 
 
so, watch out for bees when you drink outside.  keep those stein lids down. 
 
brew hard, 
 
mark bayer 

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From: "Brian Thompson" <bthompson at mfi.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 96 11:34:29 PST
Subject: Copper/Priming

An observation and a quick question for the Digest: 
 
I find it hard to beleive that copper poses any real flavor problems for 
brewers
(I suppose the health issues the FDA is looking into could be another story). 
Anchor Brewing Co. here in San Francisco has an all-copper set up (truly, a 
sight to behold) and I have never noticed a single off-flavor in any of their 
beers, and trust me, I have consumed a lot of their beers. 
 
A question: does the type of yeast used affect priming in any way? For example,
will a lower-attenuating yeast provide less carbonation than a higher- 
attenuating yeast if the same amount of dextrose is added at bottling? 
 
Brian Thompson 
 

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From: aob.org AOB Mail Delivery System <mmdf at aob.org> try <info at aob.org> -- <mmdf at aob.org>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 96 12:57:01 MDT
Subject: Waiting mail  (msg.aa21846)

    After 3 days (49 hours), your message has not yet been 
fully delivered.  Attempts to deliver the message will continue 
for 2 more days.  No further action is required by you. 
 
    Delivery attempts are still pending for the following address(es): 
 
 dkk886 at mail.usask.ca (host: mail.usask.ca) (queue: smtp) 
 
    Problems usually are due to service interruptions at the receiving 
machine.  Less often, they are caused by the communication system. 
 
    Your message begins as follows: 
 
To: dkk886 at mail.usask.ca 
From: Homebrew 
Subject: Your Message has been received 
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 96 17:42:35 GMT 
Sender: Homebrew 
Message-ID:  <9609211742.aa21846 at bacchus.aob.org> 
Source-Info:  From (or Sender) name not authenticated. 
 
Your message, which follows, has been received and will be posted to the list. 
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From: "Curt Speaker" <speaker at safety-1.univsfty.psu.edu>
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 15:23:38 EST
Subject: 1997 AHA Conf. ?

Hi all: 
 
Since my note to Shawn got an automated reply that didn't help me at 
all, and since no one else at AHA seems to want to answer the 
question, I'll pose it to the HBD collective: 
 
Does anyone know the location at date of the 1997 AHA Conference? 
I thought I read somewhere that it was going to be in Cleveland...Any 
help??? 
TIA 
Curt 
speaker at ehs.psu.edu 

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From: jim.anderson at execnet.com (JIM ANDERSON)
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 96 13:57:00 -0500
Subject: Dry-Hopping in Lagers

Greetings, my Brewing Brethren and Sisthren: 
 
I'm wondering how long one should dry hop in lagers.  (For those who 
maintain that this is inappropriate -- yeah, this is a pilsner -- I can 
only reply that I'm a hopeless hophead, and Saaz to me is as catnip is 
unto Tabby.)  Is there a time beyond which utilization diminishes, or 
even produces adverse effects?  What is "optimum?" 
 
I usually only dry hop 7-10 days, and I add my finings at the time of 
hopping.  But then I'm usually in more of hurry, too. 
 
The current batch was brewed 8/17 and transferred to the secondary on 
8/23.  For the past two weeks it's been lagering at 33F, and I'm 
planning on giving it another month.  Yeast is 2247 Danish Lager II. 
 
Any advice and/or thoughts here, O Great Collective? 
 
  - Jim 
 
........................................................................... 
Jim Anderson       :          Brewmeister, Burning Bocks Brewery          : 
                   : "We use only the freshest and finest vaginal yeast!" : 
jander at wasatch.com :             Coming soon: ShaveTail Ale               : 
...................:......................................................: 
 
 

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From: cwynn at sawyer.ndak.net (Craig Wynn)
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 20:21:17 GMT
Subject: 300 Gallon Kettle?

I've been investigating the use of dairy equipment for constructing a 
micro brewery. 
 
I'm looking at a 300 gallon round freon dairy cooler. It was used to 
keep the milk cool until the creamery truck arrived at the farm. 
The cooling unit is only in the floor of the kettle. This is a double 
wall kettle with insulation in the side walls. The floor has a slight 
convex slope. You can see the circular pattern of the cooling tubes in 
the floor. Drainage is from a check/ball valve at floor level to the 
side of the kettle. 
 
What if....I connected low pressure steam to the cooling coil of this 
kettle. Do you think I could heat the wort to a boil and in a 
reasonable fame of time?  According to the supplier who's a 
refigeration man the coils can tolerate up to 200 psi but the one I'm 
looking at  generally runs at 120 psi.  I think low pressure steam is 
only in the 15 psi range. 
 
Any thoughts you may have I'm sure I would benefit from. 
 
craig 

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