---

   FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
        Mike Donald, Digest Janitor-in-training
        Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!

Contents:
  White Beer (RUSt1d?)
  nitrogen problems/hop leaves/pale malt (korz at typhoon.xnetcom)
  Infusion mash (Steven Ketcham)
  carbonation/lagered altbier/steeping/hops and dogs (korz at typhoon.xnetcom)
  hangovers/false bottom size/pH/air filters/mead starter/cheap vodka (korz at typhoon.xnetcom)
  CBS call for Entries, Judges ((Tom Fitzpatrick))
  Duvel yeast from bottles (Joe Rolfe)
  Nothing new (Jim Liddil)
  The Soghrum Beer Challange (Michael Beck)
  Keg vs. Gott mash/lauter tuns (Dave Riedel)
  RE: Which Malt to buy? ("CHUCK HUDSON, ONCE A LAB TECH NOW A BREWER")
  Re: Which Malt to buy?  (Jeff Frane)
  Re: all-grain migraines (Dave Greenbaum)
  RE:  Making a starter (Bret_Wortman at stratus.com)
  RE:  Fermentation temperature (Bret_Wortman at stratus.com)
  starter conundrum ((Jeff Sturman))
  RO Water and Nutrients ("Bill Ballhorn")
  Re: Bergamot ((Jeff Renner))
  Re: Bergamot ((Jeff Renner))
  Bergamot (Pierre Jelenc)
  Cleaning Copper Chiller ("Palmer.John")
  Dream Six-Pack Results ("Kirk R Fleming")

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: RUSt1d? <rust1d at li.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 96 15:59:17 -0700
Subject: White Beer

Time to brew a white beer.  Anyone want to send me their favorite 
all-grain recipe?  I am not a huge spice fan (in beer anyway) so I 
would prefer something lite in that area. 
 
- -- 
John Varady 
http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady/index.html 
Boneyard Brewing Co.               "The HomeBrew Recipe Calculating 
Program" 
"Ale today, Gone tomorrow." 
 
 
 

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From: korz at typhoon.xnetcom
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 15:14:07 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: nitrogen problems/hop leaves/pale malt

Mark writes: 
>regarding the levels of nitrogen in modern barley (on the rise, according to 
>al k),  i have a question as to how this affects our beer.  if the total 
>protein levels are going up, do we need better modification and/or more 
>exhaustive mashing schedules (i.e. protein rests) to compensate for this? 
>is it the total protein that determines if we need a protein rest, or just 
>the soluble/insoluble ratio?  what effects other than chill haze does excess 
>big protein in the final beer cause?  are there any ill effects on the 
>flavor?  are there potential stability problems for unpasteurized beer? 
 
With well-modified malts I don't think that the increase in nitrogen levels 
is not as big a factor as if the malts were less-modified.  Also, this 
increase, I believe, has been a small amount over the course of the last 
25 years, so I don't think that it is a "problem" that we need to immediately 
address in our brewing. 
 
The level protein in your wort can be a positive or a negative, depending 
on what you are trying to do AND on the size of the proteins.  Amino acids 
(the building blocks of proteins) are yeast nutrients, for the most part, 
although higher levels of some can increase higher alcohol levels (each 
higher alcohol has a corresponding amino acid associated with it's production, 
if I'm not mistaken).  Small and medium-sized proteins are what give beers 
body and head retention.  Large proteins are what's in hot and cold break, 
chill haze (after reaction with polyphenols, aka tannins) and are reported 
to give bacteria something to eat (although if sanitation is good and 
the levels of bacteria are low, we're simply talking about the difference 
between long shelf-life and shorter shelf-life).  If you are really 
interested in this stuff, I recommend Malting and Brewing Science (about 
$200) and DeClerck's A Textbook of Brewing (about $100). 
 
*** 
Kelly writes: 
>Al:  "Leaf hops" is a term used by brewers, hop growers, and hop merchants 
>to describe the hop product (strobiles) used in whole, unprocessed form, as 
>opposed to pelletized, plugged, extracted, etc. 
 
It is a misnomer used typically by homebrewers and some professionals, but 
not growers or dealers, I think.  Most hop growers call them "raw hops" bu 
 some also say "whole hops."  Please note that I'm not talking about 
homebrewing supply wholesalers (some of which do (incorrectly) use the term 
"leaf hops").  To the best of my memory, I have never seen "leaf hops" in 
anything from HopUnion, Freshops, J.I.Haas or H.H.Steiner. 
 
*** 
Jim writes: 
>Al Korzonas writes that we shouldn't be using the term "Pale malt" in 
>reference to lager or pils malts.  This would cause unecessary confusion. 
>Unfortunately, both Canada malting and Gambrinus refer to their products as 
>"Pale Malt" and these are "lager type" malts.  Since Canada malting is the 
>world's largest malting conglomerate, I think we need to advise people of the 
>term "Pale Malt" and its designation. 
 
Perhaps I was unclear, but what I meant was that we should not equate 
"pale malt" with *JUST* "lager" and "pils" malts.  Similarly to what 
Jim is pointing out here, , In another post of mine, I pointed out that 
Schreier Malting does not label their basic malt with any of these titles 
and rather calls it "2-row Brewers' Malt."  In my experience, it behaves 
like and results in beer that implies it is more like a "Pilsner" malt than 
a "Pale Ale" malt. 
 
I am not aware of any midwestern distributors that carry Gambrinus or 
Canada Malting and therefore have not seen their literature.  If they 
do have a "Pale Ale" malt and "Pale" malt, it seems that this would 
result in a lot of confusion, wouldn't it?  If they don't have a "Pale 
Ale" malt and indeed this is their only pale-coloured base malt, then 
it's simply important for brewers to know that when they buy Gambrinus' 
or Canada Malting's "Pale" malt, it behaves like a "Pilsner" malt (i.e. 
has higher levels of SMM, lower levels of melanoidins and lower levels 
of caramelly flavours).  Alas, many retailers buy whatever malt they 
get the best deal on that month and don't label it with the maltster's 
name or even what the maltster calls the malt. 
 
Just as it took a while for the retailers to get pressured into using 
the proper (oxygen barrier) hop packaging, I imagine it will take some 
time for them to realize that homebrewers really *do* care if their 
"American 2-row" is from Schreier, Canada Malting, GWM, Gambrinus, etc. 
Fred's post regarding "Light Peat" versus "Medium Peat" is a similar 
issue.  How hard is it for retailers to label their supplies properly? 
I'm planning to do my part in this battle and hope that you all join me. 
 
Al. 
 
Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL 
korzonas at lucent.com 
korz at pubs.ih.lucent.com 
korz at xnet.com 
 

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From: Steven Ketcham <ketcham at earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 13:16:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Infusion mash

Hello! 
 
1.) With a single step infusion mash it seems that the idea is to add the 
cold grains to hot water so that the final temperature is somewhere between 
150-158 F degrees. Why not simply heat the grain and the water together 
untill it reaches the target temperature? 
 
2.) Charlie Papazian in his book "The New Joy..." claims that Alpha-amylase 
works best in the 149-153 degrees F range and Beta-amylase works best in the 
126-144 degree range but that the two enzymes together work best in the 
145-158 degrees F range. Why would the ideal be so much higher with the two 
together? Why not 144-149 degree F range? 
 

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From: korz at typhoon.xnetcom
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 15:17:47 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: carbonation/lagered altbier/steeping/hops and dogs

Brian writes: 
>Just speaking from 
>experience, bottle carbonation has a more cutting, acidic bite that 
>complements high-gravity brews, as opposed to the smoother keg carbonation 
>(which complements lower-gravity brews of most types...) 
 
Sorry Brian, I have to disagree.  Carbonation is carbonation no matter 
how you make it: priming or forced. 
 
Incidentally, this reminds me that I ran into Brian at the Real Ale Fest 
in Chicago this last weekend.  I'd just like to note that despite the 
lines at the beginning of the fest, it was fantastic!  Sunday there were 
no lines at all, incidentally...  It is rare that I can go to a beer 
tasting an not have ever tasted 80% of the beers.  Furthermore, except 
for one unfortunate cask, all the beers that were air-freighted from 
Britain were great.  Fuller's ESB won Champion Beer (surprise, surprise!) 
and all but three or four beers were at least very good.  30 cask-conditioned 
ales from all over the US and Britain (Marstons, Fullers and Youngs) all 
either on handpump or gravity feed (and some even available on both!).  It 
was great!  I'm sure there are still shirts (nice, embroidered polo shirts), 
handpumps and other stuff available for sale (contact Ray Daniels at 
71261.705 at compuserve.com) if you are interested and you can let Ray know 
you want information on the 1997 Real Ale Fest when it becomes available. 
[No, I'm not making money on this. I'm just a satisfied customer]. 
 
*** 
Ken writes: 
>My question deals with the cold storage that is necessary to achieve the 
>smooth, rounded flavor of a typical altbier.  I do not currently have access 
>to cold storage that is large enough for my secondary.  Has anyone tried 
>simulating this lagering step by simply letting the fermentation finish at 
>ale temps, bottling, and then storing the bottles in the fridge for a few 
>weeks? 
 
I did this and I'll tell you what I've found: I bottled the entire batch 
and lagered half the bottles at 40F and the other half were at 60 to 70F 
for six months.  After a few weeks, there was no difference.  After the 
entire six months, the cold-conditioned (lagered) bottles were *fruitier* 
whereas the warm-conditioned were very slightly more bitter.  All I can 
suggest is that perhaps the warm-conditioned bottles' yeast kept working 
a little longer and lowered the FG a little making the beer appear to be 
more bitter.  Odd, no?  I still have a few bottles left, although they 
are now over a year old.  The bitterness has faded (from the initial 
50 IBUs) to what *tastes* more like about 30 IBUs.  I should really taste 
them again side-by-side and see if the differences have evened out. 
 
*** 
Darrin writes: 
>In the grain-bag-mashing thread, Ken says: 
>"To be on the safe side, stick with around 1-1/2 quarts water per pound of 
>steeped grains..." 
>Why is this? I think I recall someone else stating no more than 1 gal. per 
>pound of grains. 
 
That was me and I was referring to crystal malts and dark grains and this 
is only true if you have relatively low carbonate levels.  If your carbonate 
levels are high, you either need to pre-boil your water before using it to 
steep the grains or you must use less water.  The issue here is the pH of 
the steep.  You can buy some pH papers and check it -- if, after adding 
the grains, your pH is more than 6, you need to either pre-boil and decant 
the water off the precipitated carbonate or use less water or add acids. 
Also, the darker the grains, the more carbonate/more water you can tolerate. 
 
Darrin also asks: 
>I'm confused about enzymes and conversions (not to mention 
>water compsition) for all the different grains. Where can I find a 
>definitive source that explains which grains need to be mashed with which 
>other grains? 
 
Any reasonable brewing text will tell you which malts need to be mashed and 
which don't although I have seen a recent release (Beer From Kits) which 
tells you to steep crushed toasted malt (without mashing) and this is 
absolutely wrong. 
 
*** 
Bob writes: 
>does anybody _know_ if growing hops are bad for dogs? 
 
Maybe, maybe not, but if in doubt, put fences around the hop plants. 
I did it to keep the bunnies from munching them, you would just have 
to use a higher fence.  I used a sort of graduated fencing -- it is 
more dense at the bottom than at the top (probably because taller 
animals have bigger heads, right?). 
 
Al. 
 
Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL 
korzonas at lucent.com 
korz at pubs.ih.lucent.com 
korz at xnet.com 
 

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From: korz at typhoon.xnetcom
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 15:22:41 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: hangovers/false bottom size/pH/air filters/mead starter/cheap vodka

Geoff writes: 
>Good beer is naturally conditioned in the cask, contains living yeasts, 
>and is served at room temperature from a hand-pump (not CO2 pressure). 
> 
>It is brewed only from grain malt, with no added sugars, and however 
>drunk you get, it causes no hang-over. 
 
While I am a great fan of cask-conditioned beer and am a card-carrying 
member of CAMRA, I want to address the last point made by Geoff.  According 
to Philippe Perpete (studying for his PhD in Brewing at Catholic University 
in Louvain, Belgium, if I'm not mistaken) the addition of sucrose actually 
*DECREASES* higher alcohol production.  Since higher alcohols have been 
implicated in (or at least many have suggested that they are associated 
with) hangovers, it seems to me that it may be wrong to simply blame "added 
sugars" for hangovers.  I think that the production of higher alcohols, 
if indeed they are the source of hangovers (and my experience certainly 
correlates with this), is quite complicated and the factors infolved are 
not all fully understood.  Consider that high fermentation temperatures 
are blamed for higher alcohol production (this is proven), but that there 
are significant levels of higher alcohols in many lagers, which are 
fermented at cooler temperatures.  Clearly, there is no simple answer 
here. 
 
Incidentally, 50-55F is the proper temperature for serving English Ale 
(this from Mark Dorber's Cellarmanship lecture at the Real Ale Festival 
this weekend) not room temperature.  I'm sure Geoff meant cellar temperature. 
 
*** 
Kirk writes (regarding large versus small keg false bottoms): 
>Extraction rates aside, the diameter that's "best" depends a bit on how = 
>you're heating the mash tun.  If you're using an external heating = 
>chamber then I see no advantage (again, other than efficiency) to the = 
>full diameter units.  If you're using direct fire, there is some = 
>advantage to more liquid under the false bottom, and to not having a = 
>thick mash in direct contact with the heated surface. 
 
Careful... remember that the enzymes are in the *liquid* part of the 
mash and that having a larger amount of liquid under the screen and 
being subjected to direct heat could result in more enzymes being 
denatured during the heating periods.  Personally, I feel that if 
heating by direct fire, the smaller false bottom would be safer. 
This is not to say that it cannot make good beer, just that you need 
to be more careful with a larger volume of mash liquid under the 
false bottom. 
 
*** 
Anton writes: 
>I am planning to do my first partial mash really soon, 
>I got info about my water from the city works people 
>(they were really happy that somebody wanted to know 
>about the water).  The Ph of my water is 7.1, do I have 
>to add something to bring it down, if so what ? 
 
I can't tell you.  No, really, I can't tell until you add the water to 
the grain.  If you want to know in advance if you will need to add 
calcium or acids, scale your recipe down to 1 ounce of grain (like 
7/8 oz of pale, 1/8 oz of crystal) and then add 2.5 ounces of water to 
the crushed malt and mix well.  Check the pH.  If it is between 5.0 and 
5.5 you are in fine shape.  If it is between 5.5 and 5.8 you will probably 
be okay for the mash, but will need to acidify your sparge water down 
to maybe 5.8 or so.  If it's well above 6.0, you can try again with 
pre-boiled and decanted water.  If that fails, you had better be prepared 
to add a lot of gypsum (if it's a pale ale) or acids if it's a low-sulphate 
style like a Pilsner. 
 
*** 
Please, please... don't mess with sanitizing the inline air filters.  If 
you use them always in the same direction and sanitize the hose and 
stone, you should be just fine even if the media did not come sterile. 
You will introduce far more wild yeasts and bacteria transfering the 
wort than you will by using an unsterilized air filter. 
 
*** 
Regarding making a mead starter, I'm not a mead maker, but it seems to 
me that a malt-based starter would be fine and would have a lot more 
nutrients than a juice- or honey-based starter. 
 
***** 
Dave writes: 
>Well, the feedback I received from 
>several HBDers was almost unanimous in attributing this nastiness to high 
>temperature, but was evenly split as to whether time and conditioning would 
>fix it. Apparently the voices of optimism were correct this time. After only 
>about 6-7 weeks in the bottle, this beer has gone from being almost 
>undrinkable to being pretty good. Actually, very good IMHO. Whatever caused 
>that cheap vodka aftertaste has disappeared as mysteriously as it arose. 
>Now, just because a diagnosis with a name, even in the absence of a cure, 
>can be a comfort, I'd like to know what this was I was tasting and by what 
>mechanism it corrected itself. Anyone? 
 
Sure.  The flavour was from higher alcohols which were created by the 
high-temperature ferment.  As long as you don't filter or centrifuge 
the beer, the yeast will convert the alcohols to esters by a process 
called esterification.  I'll bet that not only is this beer smoother, 
softer and less harsh, but it also smells fruitier, right?  A good 
Barleywine (in my opinion) will be undrinkably harsh for at least 6 
months. 
 
Al. 
 
Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL 
korzonas at lucent.com 
korz.pubs.ih.lucent.com 
korz at xnet.com 
 

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From: fitz at fasicsv.fnal.gov (Tom Fitzpatrick)
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 15:29:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CBS call for Entries, Judges

 
1996 National Homebrew Club of the Year, 
The Chicago Beer Society presents: 
 
Spooky Brew Review '96 
Oct. 26th, 1996 
A BJCP Registered Homebrew Competition 
 
To be held at: 
 
FOUNDERS HILL BREWING CO. 
5200 MAIN ST. 
DOWNERS GROVE, IL 60515 
 
Entries accepted until Oct. 19th. 
 
Judges, reserve your spot now! 
 
Entry forms available: 
 
Tom Fitzpatrick 
728 Concord St. 
Aurora, IL 60505 
 
(630)896-6255 
 
fitz at fnal.gov 
 
Judges: Anyone interested in judging at this competition should contact 
Tom Fitzpatrick by mail, phone, or e-mail as shown above. Judges should 
arrive at Founder's Hill by 8:30am on Saturday, Oct. 26th. 
 
*Remember, this competition is one of only five competitions in the Midwest 
that
determine Midwest Homebrewer of the Year!  Good luck and good brewing! 
 
- -Tom Fitzpatrick 
 

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From: Joe Rolfe <onbc at shore.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 16:33:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Duvel yeast from bottles

 i have tired several times to reaminmate the yeast from Duvel. 
niether bottle, the domestic black labels or the european white label 
bottles have been restarted. 
under the scope both look like they have been thru the same 
amount of hell, not plump, take Mblue very deep almost 
immediatly....i still have six or so tubes in the warm room waiting for 
somebody to start....2 months an nothing...... 
 
joe 

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From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 13:38:08 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Nothing new

> From: Alex Santic <alex at brainlink.com> 
> Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 03:55:38 -0400 (EDT) 
> Subject: Infected Wyeast package 
> 
> I'm not sure if this is worth posting, but it surprised me a bit and I 
> thought I'd mention it for the record... 
> 
 
Nothing new.  Not the first time and most likely not the last. 
 
Jim 

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From: Michael Beck <101465.1255 at CompuServe.COM>
Date: 08 Oct 96 17:02:17 EDT
Subject: The Soghrum Beer Challange

Fellow brewers, 
 In August a number of us witnessed a thread that began with comments 
about IBS's recent facination with sorghum malt; ending with a challange for a 
few brewers to make a batch of sorghum beer, "opaque beer, " then describing 
the
result with the HBD crowd. 
The recipie for six liters was as follows: 
 1 K Sorghum Mash 
 .5K Unmalted Winter Wheat 
 10g Generic Ale Yeast, Muntons 
 Cooked crushed wheat on a boil for 15 minutes.  Removed liquid.  Added 
sorghum and enough water to paste the grains (looked like creamy oatmeal). Kept
mash at 65 degrees C for 90 minutes.  Sparged with six liters of 75 degree C 
water. Let cool naturally, measure OG (calculated to 60 degrees F), pitched dry
yeast when "wort" was at 30 degrees C. Airlock was active in about three hours.
Everything went well for about 24 hours, then fermentation slowed to a trickle.
Racked and cooled in the fridge. 
 The first taste caught me off guard.  Fellow homebrewers, you've never 
tasted anything like this before.  It had a unique aroma and taste, sort of 
reminded me of fermenting Japanese saki. The texture milky and a color similiar
to Yoo Hoo chocolate drink.  The wheat added the after taste.  I also tested 
this on my wife, she's not a beer drinker or even a sipper, but she's the one 
that found to words to describe the aroma and taste.  Her father used to make 
his own saki. 
 It's drinkable enough that I plan to finish the six liters I have (with a 
little help from unsuspecting friends and neighbors), but I wouldn't choose it 
over an Andek Pils or an Erdinger Weizen. 
 I want to thank:   Michel Vandenplas for the opportunity to make a truely 
exotic fermented beverage.  It's people like you that help us deepen our 
appreciation for our hobby.  Bill Ridgely for all the recipies and advice on 
ingredents and methods. 
Mike Beck 
Rothselberg, Germany 
 

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From: Dave Riedel <RIEDEL at ios.bc.ca>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 14:57:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Keg vs. Gott mash/lauter tuns

I am currently working on putting together an all-grain setup.  Initially, 
I intended to use a converted keg as a kettle and a 10-gallon Gott cooler as 
a mash/lauter tun.  However, I now have 3 kegs (2 50L and 1 30L).  I'm now 
thinking that I could save some money by mashing/lautering in the 2nd 50L 
keg and use the 30L keg as a sparge water tank.  Is the geometry of the 50L 
(13 gallon) keg suitable for mashing 5 gallon batches?  I wondered if it might 
be too large in diameter (too shallow a grain bed). 
 
On a similar note... is there some reason why I really should go with the 
Gott setup? Is it much easier, for example? I figured that I could use some of 
that spray-in insulation and a cardboard 'mold' to make a jacket for the keg 
to help maintain a more constant temperature during mashing.  Since I have to 
get some welding/cutting done on my other kegs, an extra keg shouldn't be 
much more.  Perhaps the added flexability of being able to boost the temp. of 
the keg with direct heat is well worth the effort? 
 
any thoughts on all this babble would be most welcome... 
 
Dave Riedel 
Victoria, BC  Canada 

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From: "CHUCK HUDSON, ONCE A LAB TECH NOW A BREWER" <CHUDSON at mozart.unm.edu>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 16:02:03 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: RE: Which Malt to buy?

IMHO There are three choices, No. 1 on my list is Hugh Baird pale ale malt and 
No. 2 would be Munton & Fisons Pale ale,and No. 3 would be De Wolf-Cosyns Pale 
ale malt. The first two are grand examples of classic English malts that seem 
to fit the style you are brewing. DWC is a Belgian malt I like to use a lot of.
It has a different taste than the British malts but it is not a "weak" malt in 
any sense of the word. Give them all a try and post what you think is the best 
for you. 
 
Chuck. 
Homebrew Haven & BOP 
Albuquerque NM 

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From: Jeff Frane <jfrane at teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 15:09:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Which Malt to buy? 

> 
>From: "Ray Robert" <Ray_Robert at bah.com> 
>Subject: Which Malt to buy? 
> 
>After spectating on the recent malt thread, I had a question regarding the 
>best to buy.  I brew predominately pale ales, brown ales, and would like to 
>try a porter and stout.  What would be the recommended base malt for these 
>styles? (I would like to buy a 50/55lb bag).  In the past I have purchased 
>Briess 2 row and used recipes that fit that style of malt. 
> 
 
Depending on where you live, get a bag of British pale ale malt or the 
equivalent from a North American maltster. Out here in the Northwest, we 
can get very good ale malts now from Gambrinus and Great Western, but 
British malts are pretty spendy after having been shipped all this way. If 
you live back east, British malts might be less money.  Could be that Briess 
or Schreier is now making a 2-row ale malt.  Check it out.  But in any case, 
the flavors will be better than using 2-row lager malt. 
 
- --Jeff Frane 
 
 

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From: Dave Greenbaum <dgreenbaum at net-gate.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 18:50:49 -0700
Subject: Re: all-grain migraines

Robert Ray writes in #2220 that he's had a series of bad batches: 
 
> Result:  Hazy amber color with slight sour taste, with mild carbonation. 
> 
> Results from previous three batches: 
> ESB Clone - strong sherry flavors at bottling,  diminished in two months, 
> consumed entire batch. 
> Honey Wheat - slight sour taste, had several gushers. Last few were trashed. 
> Pale Ale - strong sour taste,  undrinkable, used it to water the lawn. 
 
Ray, except for the gushers, your problem might not be an infection. 
I've had inexplicable (due to anal-retentive cleanliness levels) sour 
batches in the past and found that my fermentation temp was too high. 
Your's was 75F, around where mine were.  I lowered my temps by putting 
the fermenter next to the open door of a "dorm"-sized fridge set on low 
(power, not temp) and insulating (sorta) the open areas with a towel. 
I'd have prefered a less wasteful method, but the carboy just doesn't 
fit in there.  For milder temperature control, you can use just a wet 
towel around the fermenter and/or an iced water bath.  This kept my 
temps in the 60's.  I've not had a problem with this since. 
 
- --Dave 

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From: Bret_Wortman at stratus.com
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 96 18:53:00 -0400
Subject: RE:  Making a starter

Dennis Putnam writes: 
 
>I'm a long time lurker and first time poster.  I would like to ask the 
>collective a question.  I use liquid yeast smack packs and would like to 
know 
>how big the starter should be.  I've heard everything from 1 quart to 1/2 
 
>gallon.  Is bigger better?  How much malt extract should be used?  I would 
 
>appreciate any information. 
 
I started doing starters around the time I started all-grain brewing (ie, 
four or five batches ago).  Here's what I do: 
 
Take an erlenmeyer flask (while you can do without one, the fact that you 
can boil in it right on the stove and then plunge it into an ice bath 
without worrying about it breaking is fantastic) and put 3 level 
tablespoons of extra-dry DME in it.  Add 2 cups of water.  Put it on heat 
and boil gently (it may tend to foam over if you're not very careful with 
slowly applying heat) for 15 minutes.  Cover with foil soaked in iodophor 
and pierced with a couple of holes to let air in as the mixture cools.  Put 
it in an ice bath. 
 
Once it's cooled down to 70-80F (I usually wait unitl 75), take it out of 
the bath, remove the foil, cover with an undrilled stopper that's been 
soaking in iodophor and shake the living daylights out of to aerate.  You 
should get a ton of foam. 
 
I should've mentioned that, at the same time you made the iodophor bath for 
the stopper and foil, you should have put an airlock, scissors and 
thermometer in it as well.  At this point, as the foam starts to recede, 
soak the corner of a Wyeast packet in iodophor for a few minutes.  Shake 
off the excess but don't rinse it.  Cut with scissors and pour carefully 
into the flask.  Immediately put the airlock in place and place the flask 
in a dark place, I use beneath my sink. 
 
You didn't specifically ask, but allow about 24 hours from the time you 
smack the packet until you pitch it into the starter (adjusting this time 
for the age of the yeast, of course).  Allow about 24 hours from the time 
you make the starter until you're planning to finish your brew day.  I 
personally don't worry overmuch about pitching exactly at high krausen, I'm 
not sure it's really all that detectable in a 2C wort starter. 
 
I look forward to anyone pointing out problems or improvements to this.... 
 
 
Bret Wortman 

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From: Bret_Wortman at stratus.com
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 96 18:57:30 -0400
Subject: RE:  Fermentation temperature

David Conger writes, in part: 
 
>I was just wondering about this. I'm fermenting an ale right now with 
Wyeast 
>1056. The instructions on the yeast pack recommend fermenting at 68 
degrees 
>F and the air temp around the fermenter is a steady 68 throughout the day 
 
>and night. The wort temperature, however, is between 70 and 75 degrees F 
>today (second day of active fermentation). 
 
I help keep my carboy a little bit cooler than the ambient air simply by 
placing the fermenter in a $5.00 big plastic bucket I got at my local 
hardware super-store, filling it with an inch or two of water, and wrapping 
 a wet towel around the carboy.  It wicks water up from the pool and the 
evaporative effect helps keep the carboy around 5*F cooler than the 
surrounding air. 
 
This especially helps during summer months, when it costs *way* too much to 
run my AC at 65, and I don't have a second fridge (yet). 
 
As for whether it changes the flavor, higher fermentation temperatures tend 
to produce more off-flavors than do lower ones.  I'd stick to the 
low-to-middle range for the strain you're using.  In general.  :-) 
 
 
Bret Wortman 
 

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From: brewshop at coffey.com (Jeff Sturman)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 17:58:25 -0600
Subject: starter conundrum

I built a 40 oz. starter wort and added the sediment from two bottles of 
SNPA last Wednesday.  By Saturday morning the starter had shown little, if 
any, activity.  Upon inspection there appeared to be about 1/3 inch of 
yeasty sediment in the starter.  Perplexed, I picked up the starter and the 
slight agitation caused the airlock to begin bubbling.  I figured the 
starter was just getting started and left it alone.  Later that day it was 
not showing any signs of activity so I picked it up and again the airlock 
began bubbling.  I then shook the starter and it formed a thick head and 
the airlock began blooping so rapidly that the water shot out the top of 
the airlock.  Anywho, I pitched the yeast Sunday and the wort was boiling 7 
hours later.  Has anyone else had similar experiences with this yeast, or 
with any yeast for that matter?  I know what you are thinking but no, the 
airlock was not clogged.  For some reason the starter decided to carbonate 
rather than give off CO2.  Truly strange... 
 
BTW, here's a nifty improvement for listermann's psyphon starter:  replace 
the plastic ball with a stainless steel ball of the same size.  Psyphons 
far faster with half the hassle. (say that fast) 
 
jeff 
casper, wy 
 
 

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From: "Bill Ballhorn" <ballhorn at radiks.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 19:43:07 -0500
Subject: RO Water and Nutrients

I exclusively brew with RO water because of water problems in my area (lots 
of hardness and oily scum). I seem to have more than my share of stuck 
fermentations. I have just read a letter from a subscriber in Brewing 
Techniques (Sept/Oct 96) Readers' Tech Notes column about trubless 
fermentations. This isn't my problem because I don't rack off the cold 
break in my ales and only occasionally in lagers. But the editors response 
did get me to thinking, Don Put suggested that RO water has almost all the 
minerals and healthy fermentation nutrients stripped out. This made alot of 
sense to me because going through my records I noticed that any ale that I 
made where I 
Burtonized the water always fully attenuated. As background information, I 
am an 
all grain brewer, I usually pull my yeast off of slants, use yeast 
nutrients in my starter, have half of a gallon of starter fermenting when I 
start brewing, use an aeration stone to oxygenate my cooled wort and 
usually have active fermentation within four to six hours of brewing. 
 
Does anyone think adding yeast nutrients to my wort would solve my problem 
(I use G.W. Kent 
Yeast Nutrients for my starters). Or should I be adding a base line of 
minerals back into my water? If I add a base line back in, I would like to 
stay light with a Pilsen or Belgium soft water profile and beef up from 
there for specific styles. Does anyone think that would be sufficent 
minerals 
and what would they suggest for minerals and concentration to add to my 
water? 
 
Thanks....Bill Ballhorn (sometimes stuck in Iowa). 
 

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From: nerenner at umich.edu (Jeff Renner)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 21:29:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Bergamot

Kelly Jones <kejones at ptdcs2.intel.com> says 
> 
>Daniel Goodale (his real name) asks about bergamot, the herb which gives 
>Earl Gray it's wonderful aroma.  This is also known as bee-balm, it is a 
>plant with beautiful pinkish flowers and very fragrant leaves.  You might 
>try finding some dried from an herb place, or growing your own.  I would 
>avoid "aromatherapy grade' oil, unless you know how it was extracted, there 
>could be some decidedly non food-grade residues in there. 
 
While it's true that there is a group of mints called bergamots, the plant 
which gives Earl Grey tea its flavor is actually a citrus, _Citrina 
bergamia_ (from the Italian city Bergamo).  The rind of the bergamot orange 
is used to make a greenish-yellow liquid called oil of bergamot.  I agree 
that I'd certainly hold out for food grade. 
 
- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu 
 
 

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From: nerenner at umich.edu (Jeff Renner)
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 21:29:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Bergamot

From: Kelly Jones <kejones at ptdcs2.intel.com> said 
> 
>Daniel Goodale (his real name) asks about bergamot, the herb which gives 
>Earl Gray it's wonderful aroma.  This is also known as bee-balm, it is a 
>plant with beautiful pinkish flowers and very fragrant leaves.  You might 
>try finding some dried from an herb place, or growing your own.  I would 
>avoid "aromatherapy grade' oil, unless you know how it was extracted, there 
>could be some decidedly non food-grade residues in there. 
 
While it is true that there is a group of mints (in the genera _Monarda_ 
and _Mentha_) called bergamots, the plant that gives Earl Grey tea its 
flavor is actually a citrus, bergamot orange, _Citrina bergamia_ (named for 
the Italian city of Bergamo).  Its rind used to make oil of bergamot.  I'd 
hold out for the food grade, too. 
 
- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu 
 
 

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From: Pierre Jelenc <pcj1 at columbia.edu>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 96 22:42:47 EDT
Subject: Bergamot

 
Kelly Jones <kejones at ptdcs2.intel.com> says: 
> 
> Daniel Goodale (his real name) asks about bergamot, the herb which gives 
> Earl Gray it's wonderful aroma.  This is also known as bee-balm, it is a 
> plant with beautiful pinkish flowers and very fragrant leaves. 
 
That is not the real thing, but an American plant of the mint family (also 
known as Oswego tea). True bergamot is a tree of the citrus family (Citrus 
aurantium bergamia) with small orange-like fruit. The essence known as 
"oil of bergamot" is extracted from the rind of that fruit. 
 
The principal flavoring ingredient is linalyl acetate, which is used 
extensively in perfumery. 
 
In the amounts needed as beer flavoring there is no problem of insoluble 
oils. It is very intensely flavored and a few drops will go a long way. 
 
I bought my oil of bergamot in a pharmacy in France some years ago. I 
don't know whether it is readily available in the US, but a small bribe to 
a chemistry graduate student should be able to produce linalyl acetate 
quite readily (Aldrich cat # L280-7; CA # 115-95-7). 
 
Pierre 

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From: "Palmer.John" <palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com>
Date: 8 Oct 1996 09:31:45 U
Subject: Cleaning Copper Chiller

Kevin MacRae wrote asking about a metallic taste from his copper couterflow 
wort
chiller: 
 
>Then I used a funnel to pour in vinegar until what exited tasted like 
vinegar, waited 30 minutes, and flushed until the exiting water tasted 
fine.  The wort going into the fermenter tasted great. 
 
>Three questions: 
>1.  Is the amount of copper in the previous batch harmful? 
 
I would sincerely doubt it. Our sense of taste is pretty sensitive, perhaps if 
you drank the entire batch at one time you would ingest enough copper to be 
harmful, but I really doubt That much copper dissolved due into the wort. 
 
>2.  Will the copper taste diminish in the bottle over time? 
 
If there is a lot of yeast still in the bottles, it might. 
 
>3.  When storing the rinsed counter flow chiller should I store it empty, 
>full of water, full of a water and vinegar solution, iodophor and water 
>or some other method? 
 
I would always store the chillers dry. You should clean it thoroughly after you
are done using it though. Use a detergent such as B-Brite to make sure it is 
clean and rinse it thoroughly with hot water before draining. IF the water in 
your area causes copper pipes to corrode, turn green, then you should add some 
amount of vinegar to your rinse water. The amount will depend on your local 
conditions but diluting it to a quarter would probably be a good place to 
start.
After rinsing, allow it to drain as much as possible. With use, the metallic 
taste should disappear. 
 
John Palmer - metallurgist 
johnj at primenet.com 
 
 

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From: "Kirk R Fleming" <flemingk at usa.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 22:14:27 -0600
Subject: Dream Six-Pack Results

In #2220 Kenny published the results, reporting a few votes for Bud, to his 
surprise.  I can honestly say that I would also specify a Budweiser over 
Pilsner Uruquell, based on the fact I've never had a drinkable one, and if 
I had to have just one six-pack, I'd not want to take the chance! 
 
Now, if someone can point me to a source of draft PU in Colorado, I'd 
appreciate it!  I'd really like to give this a fair shake.  As for the 
Celit Wit--yes I agree, assuming I had nothing else to brush my teeth with! 
 
 

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