---

   FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
        Mike Donald, Digest Janitor-in-training
        Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!

Contents:
  Reinheitsgebot/IPAs/HSA/amylase life speculation/pils tannins/O2 (korz at xnet.com)
  RE: Plastic Primaries (Bill Ridgely 301-827-1391 FAX 301-827-3053)
  Re: O2 in wort (hollen at vigra.com)
  Garden Hose for Blow Off Tube ((Steve Adams))
  Re: Bigger breweries and RIMS (hollen at vigra.com)
  Real Beer Page EMAIL (Carl Hattenburg)
  Hops Summary.... ((Aesoph, Michael))
  Re: Kombucha "mushroom" (Charles Capwell)
  Wyeast 1084/RIMS Well/yadda ("Gregory, Guy J.")
  reddog and other woes ((beerdogs))
  re: starch/hydrometer/iodine questions (Dane Mosher)
  Tea beer revisited. ((Shawn Scolack))
  EasyMasher discussion (Alex Santic)
  Calcium and Mash pH/ WY1056 (Steve Alexander)
  Fermenting in plastic ("Dave Draper")
  Contract vs Micro - Better Sanitation? (michael j dix)
  re:  KJ's Killer Chiller/ James Spence demise ((Bill Giffin))
  How Much to Pitch? (Bill Walker")
  need pumpkin ale advice (<Ron_Barbercheck at MB01.CCMAIL.CompuServe.COM>)
  Dateline (Steve Alexander)

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: korz at xnet.com
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:25:11 -0500
Subject: Reinheitsgebot/IPAs/HSA/amylase life speculation/pils tannins/O2

In an effort to minimize my posting, I'm waiting (in most cases) for 
a couple of days to post so that I don't just repeat what others have 
responded.  Here's a couple of posts for which I didn't see responses 
and one on which I can't contain myself: 
 
I've read that while the German breweries cannot use acids directly, they 
can add salts that naturally occur in water (such as gypsum or calcium 
chloride) and still be within Reinheitsgebot (note spelling). 
 
*** 
Jim writes: 
>Classic, historical IPAs should be crafted in the veins of Brooklyns 
>IPA.  Light in color and based on UK hops.  OG 16P, FG 3P or less, 
>IBUs 55-70, good aroma presence. 
 
I'd like to add that I have read that the historical IPAs all had sugar 
added in significant amounts to boost alcohol without the beer having a 
heavy body (this fits in perfectly with Jim's "FG 3P or less").  I have been 
reading a lot about IPAs in the last month or two and so I don't recall 
in which book or article I read this.  I believe it was an unlikely 
place, something like Noonan's "Scotch Ale" (I believe he was talking about 
how the brewers in Scotland started brewing IPAs and therefore adopting 
some of the IPA-production methods (like adding sugar) because of the 
popularity of the style throughout England and Scotland). 
 
*** 
Dave writes: 
>Although our patron saint CP recommends adding hot wort to cold water in a 
>carboy, don't do it.  The transfer will mix in oxygen likely and you will get 
>hot side aeration - HSA. The cold water will have oxygen in it and you will 
get
>some HSA even if you siphon. Your method of transferring the hot wort to a 
>bucket before cooling is also a chief candidate for HSA. 
 
While I agree that Charlie's method of pouring hot wort through a sieve will 
aerate it and result in the problems of HSA. However, carefully, smoothly 
pouring hot wort into a plastic fermenter (yes, inferior to glass, but 
easier to deal with for beginners) that contains cold water will *not* 
cause HSA problems. 
 
For the wort to react with the oxygen in the water, they would have to mix. 
When you mix the hot wort with the cold water, the temperature drops so 
your wort is no longer hot: no HSA.  I agree however, that if you use a 
carboy, the inevitable splashing will cause HSA problems and there you 
should cool the wort before pouring through the funnel. 
 
*** 
Dave writes: 
>What do you call "good" efficiency ( I routinely get in the 90s) and what was 
>your mash temperature 
>( I routinely operate at the high end)? British malts, especially those low in
>enzymes, suffer the most from a low calcium content and high mash temperature 
>and may give poor efficiency and a more fermentable wort than expected because
>the alpha amylase is less stable than in a higher calcium environment.  Ergo, 
>efficiency suffers if the alpha amylase disappears before the starch is 
>completely converted to soluble carbohydrates . The beta amylase is long gone 
>by 
>this time, of course, and because the remaining starch is not converted ( 
lower
>than expected OG) by the alpha amylase to predominantly (80/20) 
non-fermentable
>dextrins, the FG is lower than expected at the high end of the 
saccharification
>range. 
 
I would like to simply point out that this is all *speculation* on Dave's 
part and none of this is from any textbook or experimental data.  While 
Dave does use a rest at the high end of the saccarification range, he 
also (from his previous posts) uses a rest around 140F which will result 
in a non-negligible amount of beta amylase activity and lower FG than a 
single infusion done at 158F. 
 
Dave, if you would like to send me references for this assertion, I would 
be happy to read them and post a retraction.  However, in all my reading of 
DeClerck, Malting and Brewing Science, Biotechnology of Malting and Brewing 
(Hough), The Practical Brewer (MBAA), Noonan, Miller and even Papazian, I 
have not seen anything like what you propose.  My water is relatively low 
in calcium (37ppm) and I use Pale Ale malts from Britain more than 70% of 
the time and have never had problems with slow conversions or low efficiency 
(never any worse than 85%).  If you want to argue this point, let's take 
if off-line right away so we don't clog the HBD with half-baked ideas. 
 
Dave writes: 
>Most true Pilzens use a lager malt low in husk tannins... 
 
Source???  More speculation, Dave...  2-row is lower in tannin by weight 
than 6-row, but to the best of my knowledge, the tannin content of all 2-row 
malts is (for all practical purposes) the same. 
 
You are spiraling out of control (as I've done in the past).  Get a grip 
and start posting only what you know for sure. 
 
*** 
Bill writes: 
>Aerate with a simple and easy to clean 4" bit of 3/8" copper tubing with 
>a few holes drilled in it.  Works great. 
 
AJ did a test on this and found that it adds very little dissolved oxygen. 
Dennis Davison's article in BT confirmed this.  Some yeasts can do well 
with small amounts of O2, others (like the Ringwood yeast) need quite a 
bit more (like 5 times what you get from the copper tube with holes in it 
aerator). 
 
Al. 
 
Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL 
korzonas at lucent.com 
korz.pubs.ih.lucent.com 
korz at xnet.com 

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From: Bill Ridgely 301-827-1391 FAX 301-827-3053 <RIDGELY at A1.CBER.FDA.GOV>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:40:00 EST
Subject: RE: Plastic Primaries

Just a data point regarding the ongoing debate on plastic buckets 
vs glass carboys for primary fermentation - 
 
I've been brewing regularly since 1979. Soon after I started, I 
purchased two food-grade 8-gal plastic buckets to use as primary 
fermenters (replacing the K-Mart plastic trashcan I originally 
fermented in). 
 
I am still using those buckets (among others) for my primaries. 
In nearly 17 years of brewing, I have never experienced a 
bacterial infection that I could attribute to those buckets. 
 
I soak my buckets overnight in 2 oz of bleach solution both 
before and after every fermentation, then rinse with hot water 
before transferring wort from the kettle. I never worry about 
blowoff or airborne contamination, and I keep lids on loosely. I 
usually crop yeast (when brewing ales) at least once during my 
primaries, and I never leave fermenting beer in the buckets for 
more than 6 days before racking to carboys. 
 
After observing successful open primary fermentations in many 
breweries (particularly in the UK) over the years, I really don't 
see a need to change my practices. Plastic buckets are both easy 
to use and easy to clean and sanitize. Of course, YMMV. 
 
Bill Ridgely 
Alexandria, VA 
 
 

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From: hollen at vigra.com
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 96 12:58:22 PDT
Subject: Re: O2 in wort

>> Bill Giffin writes: 
 
BG> Too much O2 is bad for the yeast.  "Finally it should be 
BG> emphasized that oxygenation must be restricted, otherwise 
BG> fermentation is too vigorous, yeast growth excessive, and beer 
BG> quality suffers."  From M&BS 2nd edition. 
 
Can't disagree, but George Fix did experiments which he says will be 
coming out in his next book which state that at STP, you cannot 
overoxygenate.  While *immediately* after oxygenation, you may get a 
DO reading which is "too high" within a couple of minutes, it declines 
to the "equilibrium" of DO in STP liquid, which is beneath the value 
considered to be "too much".  I have no figures for all of this, since 
I obtained the information from George in a personal conversation at a 
brew festival where he was speaking. 
 
dion 
 
- -- 
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x164                 Email: hollen at vigra.com 
Sr. Software Engineer - Vigra Div. of Visicom Labs  San Diego, California 

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From: paa3765 at dpsc.dla.mil (Steve Adams)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 96 15:37:32 edt
Subject: Garden Hose for Blow Off Tube

Hey folks: 
 
The other day I brewed at my brewing partner's house -- ten gallons.  I threw 
the batch in a ten gallon coke can and drove home.  I still had most of the 
domed part inside empty (a little room). Instead of transferring to fermenters 
, I decided to ferment right in the can by hooking up blow off tubes to posts 
that hold the valves.  I like to live dangerously brewing.  To make a long 
story, I used a healthy quantity of WYEAST 1272 -- American Ale II -- and got a
vigorous fermentation. Because I had never used this can before, I had to make 
do with 5/8" OD tube hollowed out inside with a pen knife on one side; on the 
other side, I used a 6' length of unused garden hose which fit perfectly. 
Well, ya know, I sanitized the hoses real good and all, and figured that using 
the garden hose as a blow off tube would be fine because all the material would
be moving out of the can through the hose. 
 
As long as there was no suck-back, I should be fine, right? Or is my beautiful 
ale going to taste like a drink from the hose on a hot summer day?  Gak!! 
Yeah, yeah, I know the wisdom about going food grade with everything, but 
sometimes I just can't help myself.  Oh, yeah, any others out there with WY 
1272 experience, opinions? 
 
Steve Adams 
 

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From: hollen at vigra.com
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 96 13:06:18 PDT
Subject: Re: Bigger breweries and RIMS

>> Braam Greyling writes: 
 
BG> Hi there, 
BG> I have general question about bigger breweries and RIMS or other 
BG> mashing styles. 
 
BG> Is it just the homebrewers that uses RIMS ?  Does bigger breweries use 
BG> it as well ?  If they are not using it what do they use ? Decoction 
BG> only ?What is the biggest brewery that you know that use RIMS or 
BG> infusion mashing ? 
 
I found one brewery in San Francisco that uses a RIMS system and it 
was commercially available, so there must be more.  The problem is 
heating without scorching when you scale up that much.  I don't know 
what kind of heat they used, but I would assume that the best would be 
steam with a very good external heat exchanger. 
 
dion 
 
- -- 
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x164                 Email: hollen at vigra.com 
Sr. Software Engineer - Vigra Div. of Visicom Labs  San Diego, California 

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From: Carl Hattenburg <CHattenburg at Perstorp-us.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:20:16 -0400
Subject: Real Beer Page EMAIL

The following taken from the Real Beer Page newsletter: 
- ---------------------------- 
A REAL BEER STORY 
Two years ago this brewer rode out to the GABF 400 miles on his 
motorcycle. He's paid out of his own pocket to enter his beers into 
competitions, because the owners of the brewpub don't value or 
understand the brewing aspect of the business. When Rob Moline of 
Manhattan, Kansas' Little Apple Brewing Company called back to the 
restaurant to inform them that he won a Gold Medal for best 
barleywine in the U.S., he was told, "That's Groovey." Well, we love 
this guy, his beer and his triumph against-all-odds attitude, so we've 
created a little page for you to get to know him a little better. Help 
us 
congratulate Rob Moline by surfing to: 
 
          http://realbeer.com/travels/lilapple 
 
- ---------------------------- 
ANOTHER REAL BEER STORY 
A-B set up a beautifully painted display across the street from GABF 
venue, Currigan Hall, using two Semi's that housed "Beer School." The 
road show apparently had been in San Francisco the week before. 
The school was intended to educate consumers about the brew 
process and open the conversation to A-B's new line of specialty 
products. The metaphors of preaching to the choir and grinding 
hamburgers before vegetarians may both explain some of the cold 
response A-B got from the crowds attending the GABF. As thousands 
of attendees waited for the doors to open for the first night of 
tastings, an A-B pitchperson tried to recruit people to come over to 
their school. The crowd booed loudly. Pointing a guy out in the 
crowd, the pitchperson persisted, inviting him over. "I wouldn't drink 
your beer if you paid me," he said, which met cheers from the crowd. 
A-B may have to attend some schooling about the craft-beer 
audience. 
- ---------------------------- 
To subscribe, send an email message to rbp-request@ realbeer.com -- in 
the 
BODY of the message type: 
 
   subscribe 
   end 
 
 

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From: aesoph at ncemt1.ctc.com (Aesoph, Michael)
Date: 17 Oct 96 16:34:21 EDT
Subject: Hops Summary....

Dear Collective: 
 
 
 
 Here is the summary of the hop rhizome vendors that I received.  The 
only time to get them is March - April and you should place orders in 
February or so to make sure you get some.  Thanks for your responses.  My 
uncle is going to provid me some from his own plant so I can nurture them 
over the winter under a grow-lite!!!!!! 
 
 
 
Semplex of USA in MN 
 
Phone # 1 612 522 0500 
 
Fax   # 1 612 522 0579 
 
 
 
The Brew Club 
 
Santa Cruz, CA 
 
1-800-995-2739 
 
 
 
Great Fermentations of Marin 
 
San Rafael, CA 
 
1-800-570-BEER 
 
 
 
The Cellar Homebrew 
 
Seattle, WA 
 
1-800-342-1871 
 
 
 
South Bay Homebrew Supply 
 
Torrance, CA 
 
1-800-608-BREW 
 
 
 
Freshops, 
 
Philomath, Oregon 
 
(800) 460-6925 
 
 
 
Henry Field's 
 
Seed & Nursery Co. 
 
415 North Burnett 
 
Shenandoah, Iowa 51602 
 
Phone: 605-665-4491 
 
Fax: 605-665-2601 
 
 
 
Gurney's 
 
Seed & Nursery Co. 
 
110 Capital Street 
 
Yankton, South Dakota 57079 
 
Phone: 605-665-1671 
 
Fax: 605-665-9718 
 
 
 
Hopunion USA, Inc. 
 
Hops Growing and Processing 
 
Yakima, WA 
 
(509) 457-3200 
 
 
 
================================================== 
 
        Michael D. Aesoph                Associate Engineer 
 
================================================== 
 

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From: Charles Capwell <chas at A119007.sat1.as.crl.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:25:02 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Kombucha "mushroom"

> >From: ken at axis.jeack.com.au (Ken Coppleman) 
> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:33:33 +1000 
> Subject: Kombucha tea to beer? 
> 
<SNIP!> 
> I firstly removed the Kombucha culture & figured I should try to kill the 
> yeasts within the brew, so I then heated the whole lot to 50 degrees celcius 
> (around 115-120 farenheit?) hoping this would kill the Kombucha yeasts.  I 
> then figured that the brew would need extra nutrients, as the Kombucha 
> fermentation would have used most of the original sugars - so I added about 
> 2 kg of white cane sugar.  I then added the started beer yeast, fitted an 
> air lock & crossed my fingers. 
> 
 
Okay, my father-in-law-to-be is a Kombucha nut, so I can speak with at 
least some modicum of knowledge on the subject, although there are 
probably others on this list that know more. 
 
Anyway, I digress. First, that "mushroom" is more than just yeast. It is 
"matrix" of yeast AND BACTERIA. I think it is supposed to be some sort of 
symbiotic relationship that, from what I've heard, will break down if other 
bacteria or yeast are present. I don't know if your 50d C boil would have 
killed the bacteria off. Take a sample, see how it tastes. Frankly, I think 
you're likely to wind up with something noxious, but that's a personal 
opinion. 
 
> Since then the brew *is* fermenting, but movement of the air bubble in the 
> lock is extremely slow (I also don't know whether it is the beer yeast, or 
> possible Kombucha yeasts at work). 
> 
> Can anyone advise me whether I might be able to end up with a palatable beer 
> or wine, whether I need to adjust or add any ingredients, or whether I 
> should cut my losses & just throw the whole lot away.  I would like to 
> persevere, because the original Kombucha brew was quite tasty & sharp, I 
> could see it making a nice sparkling cider type of drink. 
> 
 
My opinion would be to chuck it, but if you _really_ want to be persistent 
I'd say boil the whole batch again, letting it stay at 100d C for at least 
15 mins to attempt to be sure to kill all those bugs that the kombucha 
'shroom might have left behind. Also clean and sanitize your fermenter as 
much as humanly possible, again to kill any stray microscopic beasties. 
Then, maybe add a little more sugar and pitch something like Prisse de 
Mousse or any other champagne yeast. The kombucha "tea" resembles a wine or 
mead more than it does beer. 
 
> - --Ken 
> 
> 
> /* ---------------- Ken Coppleman - MELBOURNE ----------------- */ 
> /* ------------- Internet: ken at axis.jeack.com.au -------------- */ 
> /* ------------------------------------------------------------ */ 
> 
- -Chas (chas at crl.com) 
 
When I heated my home with oil, I used an average of 800 gallons a 
year.  I have found that I can keep comfortably warm for an entire 
winter with slightly over half that quantity of beer. 
                -- Dave Barry, "Postpetroleum Guzzler" 

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From: "Gregory, Guy J." <GGRE461 at ecy.wa.gov>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 96 14:06:00 PDT
Subject: Wyeast 1084/RIMS Well/yadda

 
John Penn asks: 
 
"In HBD 2233 I asked for advice on a Bitter Chocolate Stout recipe and I 
left off the yeast. I was going to use Wyeast 1084 Irish Ale yeast which 
I have never used.  Any comments on this one." 
 
Yeah....it is the yeast I use in my personal award-winning Nickerdog 
Memorial Porter...which has been accused of being a stout on more than one 
occasion.  It's great....ferments well, though not so much with enthusiasm 
as with tenacity, thus, you may want to secondary 10 days to 2 weeks.  Adds 
a proper amount of flavor, though often difficult to distinguish with high 
flavored big beers.  Seems alcohol tolerant.  I also like the Wyeast Swedish 
Porter yeast. 
__ 
 
David Hill, of Australia (crediting the original design concept of Les 
Howard of South 
Oakleigh, Melbourne Australia) has now written twice about an intriguing 
RIMS recirculation system. Basically, he has  a well to transmit wort from 
below his false bottom back up to the grain.  As a student of RIMS, but not 
a practitioner, this seems to eliminate a great deal of the complexity and 
cost from other RIMS designs.  I like the lack of plumbing and chambers and 
magnetic drive pumps and stuff.  It also seems to be better able to adapt to 
external gas heating sources. I wonder if this could be adapted to even 
avoid using a pump, sort of like a coffee percolator. (probably would 
require too much heat....in-situ decoction?....nah) 
How do you RIMS practitioners feel about this crafty australian design?  I 
think I'm gonna build one! 
 
By the way, for you Aussies out there..".yadda yadda yadda" is New Yorker 
equivalent to 1) blah..blah...blah, or 2) any other waste of bandwidth (like 
this one). 
 
G'day 
Guy Gregory 
GuyG4 at aol.com 
Lightning Ck. Home Brewing 
 
 
 
 
 
 

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From: beerdogs at cyclops.dcache.net (beerdogs)
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:10:40 -0500
Subject: reddog and other woes

1)torbjorn bull-njaa writes: 
>The biggest disappointments are the heavily hyped introduction of the Red 
>Dog brand in late 1994 and the would-be flagship Miller in February this 
>year. After some brief excitement Red Dog, which was positioned as a 
>quasi-microbrew, is dropping like a stone. The cure for Miller seems to be a 
>huge new campaign for Millers Lite. 
 
anyone who is curious can check out the BREWELT mag at breWorld.com for 
statistics on 1995 market share changes in the US.  no micros, just the big 
boys and how there bottom line is creeping up on them. 
 
2)  on the HSA thread, i was taught to mash in my brewpot until time to 
lauter and then dump it into my cooler mashtun.  since i cannot add heat to 
the cooler this seemed about right.  what is HSA and how do i know if it is 
a problem.  also can it be avoided in my situation? (ie. is there some way 
i can transfer to lauter other than just pouring?)  anyone else have a 
similar setup?  what do you do? 
 
3)  back to the rye tread for a minute,  rye, i beleive was aleged to have 
the same precusors to that clove-like character we all know.  am i correct 
in this?  also, does rye have the same head retentive properties as wheat? 
my experience leads me to beleive it does not, however, i may not have used 
a sufficient quantity. 
 
4)  i still dont know what RIMS stands for.  please, help! 
 
thanks a lot you all, 
prost, nozdrovia, salud and 
 
Cheers, 
Rod 
 
***  "Come on, I'll buy you a beer, Jim."  "Oh, it's going to take more 
than a beer to get rid of this mess.  This is a job for a couple of 
sixpacks."    *** 
                                        -Jim Inatowski, TAXI 
 
 

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From: Dane Mosher <dmosher at xroadstx.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:56:22 -0500
Subject: re: starch/hydrometer/iodine questions

Anton Schoenbacher just did his first all-grain (yea!) and asks what 
effect unconverted starch has on a hydrometer reading. 
 
In my experience, unconverted starch doesn't make it to my hydrometer 
readings--it's left behind in the grain.  In fact, extremely low gravity 
readings are a sign to me that sacchirification didn't finish, either 
due to a bad crush or too short a mash. 
 
Anton also asked about iodine tests and whether the black color is 
subtle. 
 
In my experience, it's not subtle at all.  The iodine should turn black 
immediately upon hitting the mash sample.  If you let it swirl around 
for a while, it will eventually become impossible to tell what color it 
is, so you should go with the immediate reaction. 
 
Dane Mosher 
Big Spring, Texas 
 
 

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From: Shawn.Scolack at tsr.gcastle.com (Shawn Scolack)
Date: 
Subject: Tea beer revisited.

 
Reply-To: Shawn.Scolack at tsr.gcastle.com 
 
 
Greetings, 
 
Michael Caprara <mcaprara at awwarf.com> wrote: 
>I have used different Celestial Seasons (no affiliations, blah, blah) in 
 
I ended up using Twinings tea bags, they worked quite well also. 
 
>awesome!)  I used a whole box of tea bags and steeped them in the 
>wort for about 10 minutes after the boil. 
 
I used 10 bags, I steeped them in boiling water in a seperate kettle and 
added it to the wort before cooling it. I figured 10 was a good place to 
start, since I wasn't sure if I'd like it. But it smells great so... 
 
>About the honey.  What the hell, throw it in there.  Just don't do too much 
 
I threw in the honey. 500g to be exact. I didn't know if that was too much 
or too little. Guess I'll find out soon enough. Anyways, the fermentaion was 
very vigourous the first day or too. Something I wasn't expecting. I went 
to check on my brew the next day and the airlock was overflowing with foam. :( 
My brown ale's fermentation was very quiet. So was the violent fermention a 
result of the honey or tea? 
 
Anyways, thanks to Michael Caprara for his advice... 
 
Shawn.Scolack at tsr.gcastle.com 
 
 
- ------------------------------------------------------------------ 
Source: The Staff Room BBS, 519-979-4208, FIDO: 1:246/12 
Over 450Meg of quality educational shareware for the taking! 
- ------------------------------------------------------------------ 
 
[Created by the Internet Connection 4.0/Registered 10-17-96 16:30:25] 

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From: Alex Santic <alex at brainlink.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:07:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: EasyMasher discussion

Chiming in on Craig's questions and Al's responses... 
 
As A.K. pointed out, heat loss can be a problem using the EasyMasher with 
a typical brew kettle. I've done one batch with it so far and was pleased 
with how well it went, but maintaining a given temperature as well as 
keeping it even throughout the mash was difficult. I used almost-boiling 
water for the sparge and was never in danger of overheating the mash. I 
probably will use a more typical sparge water temperature once I come up 
with a solution for insulating the kettle. 
 
Another potential heat-loss problem occurred to me as I was working. It 
seems plausible that it would be difficult to get a dextrinous wort, or at 
least strike an intended balance, with a lot of cool areas in the mash. 
The remaining beta-amylase might make short work of the dextrins being 
created in the hotter parts of the mash. 
 
Finally, the only solution to heat loss is to add heat, and when you do 
that you have to stir pretty well to get it distributed evenly. All the 
stirring actually aggravates the heat loss and I'm afraid it results in a 
good deal of aeration as well. 
 
Insulating the kettle may be a very important issue with the Easymasher, 
otherwise it's a very useful device. 
 
Alex Santic 
NYC 

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From: Steve Alexander <stevea at clv.mcd.mot.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:02:03 -0400
Subject: Calcium and Mash pH/ WY1056

 
I've been catching up on the Dave Burley, Bill Griffon discussion and 
have to expand on a  point or two ... 
 
Calcium is involved in several different ways.  Calcium is necessary 
and is made inaccessible by the action of phytase in the classical 
acid rest.  This acid rest is only relevent to 'lager malts', and 
british pale ale malt has no appreciable phytase.  Another form of 
acid rest is an extended rest for the development of lactic acid 
bacterial byproduct - this sort or rest requires many hours to several 
days.  The mash acidifying effect of gypsum and several other salts 
is well known. 
 
Why is pH important ?  As David Burley points out various amylolytic 
enzymes are more active and more stable at an 'optimum' pH in the 
neighborhood of 5.3 - however the activity drop off of these enzymes 
with pH is really pretty slow.  The 50% points are something like 
(from memory) pH 4.0 and pH 8.0 !!!  To further complicate matters the 
activity of the amyases, particularly alpha-amyalse is extended to 
higher pH as the calcium level is increased.  There are a lot of 
really good reasons to mash between pH 5.1 and 5.5 (break formation, 
yield, amino acid reactions, polyphenol extraction, ...), but loss of 
amylase activity, especially in a wort w/ 50 to 100 ppm of Ca is 
probably only of secondary concern. You could probably effectively 
saccharify a mash at pH 8 !! 
 
So what about calcium ?  Things get real messy here.  If carbonates 
remain in the mash - then it possible to lose some calcium as calcium 
carbonate - which may be why the large amounts of Ca are often 
suggested.  Calcium has only a minor effect on beta-amylase.  Calcium 
has a major effect on alpha-amylase stability and activity.  Stability 
- - alpha-amyase(AA) is sometimes classified as an metalo-enzyme, since 
it is irreversible denatured by removal of the calcium.  It appears 
that one molecule of Ca per AA molecule is required.  Also there are 
at least two identified iso-enzymes of AA that have vastly different 
iso-electric potentials - and thus binding to the Calcium ions.  These 
two denature at different pH values.  Activity - I've seen a study of 
AA activity that shows a nearly linear relationship of AA activity w/ 
respect to Ca ion concentration from about 1ppm to 100ppm.  Whether 
this hold true in a real-world wort or whether other wort ions provide 
the same effect isn't at all clear. One thing that would be 
immediately useful to know is how much calcium from the malt is 
available in the wort - clearly some - but how much is a mystery to 
me. 
 
How much calcium is necessary in the real world ?  Clearly Plzen water 
with it's low calcium (5-10ppm Ca I believe) and comparably low 
carbonate level is used successfully used in brewing.  However the 
activity and temperature stability of AA may be compromised. 
Extensive loss of AA might be expected to hurt yeild more that 
fermentability.  Note that some Plzen mash schedules are rigourous 
and extended  decoction mashs allowing a lot of time for the AA to act. 
As David Burley pointed out - the loss of enzyme activity and 
stability can be made up to some extent by choosing malt with a high 
diastatic power - paricularly more alpha-amylase. 
 
Bill Giffin says: 
 
>I have taken British malt and acidified it with lactic acid and managed 
>to get good efficiency from this malt with only about 7 ppm of calcium. 
 
Note that british pale-ale malts do have lower diastatic power 
compared with lager malt, however most of the difference is in the 
beta amylase. 
 
- -- 
 
BTW - just read the Brewing Techniques article on APAs by David 
Brockington last night and was amused to read his comments on the use 
of Chico yeast (wy1056).  His opinion and mine coincide. 
 
Steve Alexander 

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From: "Dave Draper" <ddraper at laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:43:14 +10
Subject: Fermenting in plastic

Dear Friends, 
 
In #2234, Al K. wrote, in response to the suggestion to use plastic 
fermenters: 
 
"Baloney!  Plastic scratches and is therefore more difficult to 
sanitize than glass.  Sure the carboys can get dirty and can harbour 
wild yeast and bacteria, but a one week soak in bleach water (1 
tablespoon per gallon) and a 1 minute scrub with a carboy brush takes 
off all the crud.  You are the first person I've ever heard say that 
plastic is easier to deal with than glass.  Glass is fragile and costs 
more, but it is far easier to sanitize reliably than a plastic 
fermenter.  Don't tell me you lager in plastic too? Eight weeks in a 
plastic fermenter is sure to allow enough oxygen in to oxidise the 
alcohols to aldehydes.  Yuck!  Ever taste air-pumped megabrew beer the 
morning after?  THAT'S aldehydes.  To me they smell a little like 
"Playdoh." " 
 
No Al, he is not the first person you have heard say this because I 
have posted that very thought myself right here in the digest, more 
than once, and I know *I* was not the first. 
 
Plastic is no harder to sanitize reliably-- it is only if there are 
scratches present that it is an issue.  Scratches in a plastic 
fermenter are so laughably easy to prevent that it scarcely bears 
mentioning.  What do you put in a plastic fermenter besides liquid? 
Last time I checked there were no sharp surfaces in liquid.  Don't 
use it to carry the shards of your dropped and broken glass carboy 
and it won't scratch.  An overnight soak with bleach solution (not 
even a week is needed) removes everything from the surface-- it 
rinses clean as a whistle without even the need for a scrub-- the 
same is true of glass of course. 
 
Yes, I lager in plastic.  Here in Oz where the homebrew "industry" is 
far less well developed than it is in the US, plastic fermentors are 
far easier to come by than are glass ones.  Our club has in its ranks 
some very fine brewers, a few of whom have moved up into commercial 
brewing.  Their beers fermented in plastic range right across the 
style range from lagers to strong ales to Belgian styles, the works. 
We have no particular problem with aldehydes.  We are talking about 
hundreds of batches as a basis for this claim, just in the group I 
know personally. 
 
No one will question that plastic is more permeable to oxygen than 
is glass.  The real question is: does it matter?  Is it enough to 
affect the beer's flavor? Al, you have posted before that your 
experience with aldehydes appearing in a beer fermented in plastic 
amounts to one (1) batch-- please advise if I am mistaken.  If you 
have data to back up the comment "Eight weeks in a plastic fermenter 
is sure to allow enough oxygen in to oxidise the alcohols to 
aldehydes" I would like to see them. 
 
Plastic gets this knee-jerk, out of hand dismissal all the time and I 
strongly believe it is unwarranted.  The risk of bodily harm so far 
outweighs the tiny probability of scratching the plastic that it 
seems silly to risk it-- like driving without a seatbelt.  When I 
return to the States next year I will gladly keep using plastic until 
and unless it can be demonstrated to me that there is a *measurable* 
and *noticeable* influence on the taste of beer brewed in that way. 
 
Yours in friendly disagreement, 
 
Dave in Sydney 
"I am speaking from a materials perspective..." ---John Palmer 
- --- 
*************************************************************************** 
David S. Draper, Earth Sciences, Macquarie University, Sydney NSW Australia 
ddraper at laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au 
                ...I'm not from here, I just live here... 

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From: michael j dix <mdix at dcssc.sj.hp.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 96 15:46:12 PDT
Subject: Contract vs Micro - Better Sanitation?

It used to be said that all microbrewed beer was infected, the 
difference was only in degree. In fact, I heard Dr. Michael Lewis 
say that in Davis, several years ago.  In contrast, Dr. Lewis 
went on to say, the level of sanitation at a large commercial brewery, 
such as the AB brewery in nearby Fairfield, was far greater than in 
any operating room. (So much so, that were he to need open-heart 
surgery, he would request it done at Anheuser-Busch.) 
 
So, I am wondering if this is still true.  (not counting mega-micros 
such as Sierra Nevada.)  If it is, this is a point in favor 
of contract brewing. When I buy beer, I prefer it to be uninfected. 
 
Mike Dix 
 

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From: bill-giffin at juno.com (Bill Giffin)
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:15:02 cst
Subject: re:  KJ's Killer Chiller/ James Spence demise

Good evening, 
 
I use a single spiral immersion chiller made of about 35' of 1/4" copper 
and the convection is adequate with that. 
 
It saddens me to hear of the firing of James Spence from the AHA. 
Although I didn't always agree with James, I found him to be helpful, 
concerned about homebrewing issues as well as being loyal to the AHA 
line.  I wish James the best for his future.  James may the Lord always 
hold you in the hollow of his hand and I hope that you prosper. 
 
Sadly enough I do not hold the president of the AHA in such high regard. 
Perhaps the wrong person was FIRED! 
 
Bill 
Richmond, Maine 

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From: "bwalker at holli.com Bill Walker" <bwalker at holli.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:53:59 -0500
Subject: How Much to Pitch?

=09 
Hello, I am fairly new to homebrewing. I have been reading the HBD now = 
for about 2 Months. I am starting my 3rd batch of brew. 
 
 The first being a brown ale that I used Edme dry ale yeast (10g = 
aprox.). It had a real fast fermentation (<48 hours  at  about 72-74 = 
degrees), is now almost 2 weeks into the bottles. (Tastes pretty good I = 
opened up one after about 10 days) 
 
 My second batch I made a brew based on Rocky Raccoons Crystal Honey = 
Lager in The NCJOHB using Yeast Lab's Australian Ale dry Yeast(14 g) , = 
(good fermentation over 3 days at 72-74 degrees), which is now almost 2 = 
weeks into secondary fermentation. 
 
 The question I have is, I am planning on making the Dunkel recipe from = 
NCJOHB, and all I have is two 5 gram packets of both Danstar London and = 
Nottingham dry ale yeast, which one should I use?, and should I pitch = 
one or both? 
 
 Any direct responses would be appreciated 

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From: <Ron_Barbercheck at MB01.CCMAIL.CompuServe.COM>
Date: 17 Oct 96 20:09:16 EDT
Subject: need pumpkin ale advice

     I went to the farmers market today and picked up a 2 lb. pie pumpkin. 
     I plan to brew a pumpkin ale...possibly a wheat ale and I'd like to 
     hear what you HBD'er think. 
 
     If I decide to do a mash it'd be 65% wheat malt and 35% barley malt 
     along with the pumpkin.  I was also thinking about sprouting the 
     seeds, "kilning" them in the oven and throwing them in the mash too. 
     Since it would be a wheat beer I would wanna go light on the spices (I 
     will eat my pumpkin pie not drink it) such as coriander, clove or 
     allspice, ginger and maybe nutmeg or cinnamon. Oh, and Saaz hops. 
 
     I was also thinking about maybe a mash extract or even a complete 
     extract (northwestern wheat extract 65wheat, 35barley).  I would use 
     Wyeast Belgian Wit.  If I go all extract how do I prepare my adjunct? 
     Should I mash it with Alpha Amylase?  Should I try to sparge it with a 
     load of rice hulls mixed in? 
 
     If you are willing to take the time to type in my address I will take 
     direct messages...otherwise post your *beer making advice* in the 
     digest. 
 
     To PU drinkers, Try Kozel (Czech Rep.) if you can get some. 
     To those heading to Cancun I have only two words; LEON Negra. 
 

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From: Steve Alexander <stevea at clv.mcd.mot.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 20:10:51 -0400
Subject: Dateline

 
On the dateline/megabrewer thread, Ed Steinkamp says ... 
 
>Perhaps some Government regulation is in order. 
>... If somebody wants to sell an IPA, it 
>should not be a budmillercoors with brown food coloring in it. 
 
And if someone wants to sell a lager with a name like 'Budweiser' it 
should taste like the Czech Pils and not like the A-B product - right? 
I guess I don't agree in either case.  As long as there is no 
attempt to deceive or hide dangerous ingredient information who cares 
what the label says.  If there is an attempt to deceive for profit, 
it's called fraud and it already is a crime. 
 
> Of course the law would have to be 
> written so that it would not stifle creativity. 
 
Can't be done. All laws stifle creativity - it's an inherent part of 
the restriction involved. Consider the Reinheitsbgebot(sp?) law was 
originally an attempt to assure purity, but as methods progressed the 
laws restriction prevented the use of many practical developments, 
some of which require some silly workarounds. Why use a 
lacto-fermentation to acidify when a lactic acid addition gets the 
same result.  Why make ridiculously undermodified 'malt' instead of 
using raw barley ?  Creative energies, money, time effort had to go 
into overcoming the 'silly' parts of the restriction instead of making 
better beer (fortunately German brewers were persistant). The problem 
with laws are that they ultimately mandate a means instead of an end 
and so stifle creativity. 
 
>I'm not a fan of big government, but I also don't like lousy beer. 
 
The Dateline article didn't address 'lousy beer'.  The Dateline issue 
had to do with the use of phrases like 'handcrafted' and labels that 
don't indicate contract brewing relationships.  Neither of these 
things makes a beer good or bad.  Is SNPA 'handcrafted' ?  At their 
volumes I doubt the phrase applies - but a great ale.  Aren't (Wicked) 
Pete Slosbergs' products still contract brewed - I think many of them 
are wonderful. 
 
>I really don't like buying something that looks like a mirco-beer 
>with a fancy label which promises a craft beer, but actually turn 
>out to be budmillercoors crap. 
 
Microbrewing doesn't give any insurance against 'lousy beer'.  Instead 
why don't you just buy beer based on taste instead of on what the 
label looks like and avoid this problem. Laws can't mandate good 
flavor. 
 
In the fine wine business labelling and production restriction are 
severe in some juristictions.  So the production is 'correct' and the 
labels are complete and accurate, but these things have nothing to do 
with quality.  Tasting the wine or reading a review are the only means 
of getting a sense of the flavor.  If you don't have time to taste 
beers yourself, subscribe to 'The Malt Advocate' or one of the other 
publications with beer reviews, check out Michael Jackson's books, ask 
friends, post to HBD. As for government intervention & more laws - no 
thanks, I already have plenty of each. 
 
only MY opinion of course, 
Steve Alexander 

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