---

   FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
        Mike Donald, Digest Janitor-in-training
        Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!

Contents:
  Warm-Side-Aeration???? ("Kirk Harralson")
  Re: Is You Is or Is You Ain't? (Jeff Frane)
  Uncle Sam, Chili's in beer ((Steve Cloutier))
  Acronyms (smurman at best.com)
  Botulism, bleach, my first batch of mead (Jorge Blasig - IQ)
  unplanted hop rhizomes (Rick Dante)
  Glass Vs. Plastic Thing (Rick Olivo)
  new address complexities (Matthew Apple)
  traveling beer (Eugene Sonn)
  How do I do this brewing??  ((Mark Preston))
  rims/rye/weiss yeasts ((beerdogs))
  RIMS Question:  Lautering (Brian Travis)
  born on... ((BAYEROSPACE))
  A List Of Mail - Order Stores (shane at cais.cais.com)
  Filtering Question !? (Gary Eckhardt)
  Carbonater Caps ((Daniel R. Burke))
  plastic ((Andy Walsh))
  Jethro on Plastic (Rob Moline)
  fruit syrups ((beerdogs))
  Apples, Oranges, Hammers and Screwdrivers (Jack Schmidling)
  Goodbye and Thanks for the Beer! (Charlie Scandrett)
  quick fermenter? (Barry Vanhoff)
  Killer-chiller ((David Hill))

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kirk Harralson" <kwh at smtpgwy.roadnet.ups.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 96 17:51:07 EST
Subject: Warm-Side-Aeration????

Al writes about HSA: 
 
>For the wort to react with the oxygen in the water, they would have to mix. 
>When you mix the hot wort with the cold water, the temperature drops so 
>your wort is no longer hot: no HSA.  I agree however, that if you use a 
>carboy, the inevitable splashing will cause HSA problems and there you 
>should cool the wort before pouring through the funnel. 
 
If you mixed equal volumes (2.5 gallons each) of, say 200F wort with 
40F water, I assumed the resulting mixture would stabilize initially 
at approximately 240/2 = 120F (Actually higher since the thermal 
capacity of wort is higher than water).  Ignoring thermal capacities, 
the volume of hot wort would have to be less than 1.875 gallons to 
bring the final temperature below 100F in a 5 gallon batch.  This 
would, of course, require a very concentrated boil. 
 
I guess the only reason I pursued this is the question of how cool 
does the wort need to be to discount possible HSA?  Is 120F considered 
safe?  I thought it would be much cooler.  The reason I ask this is 
that I have toyed with the idea of building some sort of aeration 
gadget that would connect to my Easymasher spigot to aerate the wort 
during chilling when the wort had cooled down to a "safe" point.  My 
immersion chiller is very efficient taking boiling wort down to a 
certain point, but takes forever to take the temperature further down 
to pitching temp.  I envisioned pumping filtered air through the 
spigot into an immediate elbow that would jet the air alongside the 
inner wall of my kettle.  This would serve two purposes:  initial 
oxygenation of the wort; and provide a whirlpool type movement of the 
wort around my chiller without having to move the chiller manually 
(the lid stays on).  I gave up on this idea for two reasons -- HSA, 
and the need for a fairly powerful air pump to make this work.  If HSA 
risks can be discounted as high as 120F, I may actually pursue the 
second problem.  What does the collective think?  Does this have any 
merit worth pursuing?  More importantly, what would Dateline think? 
If they say its a no-go, then that's the end of that :-) 
 
Kirk Harralson 
Bel Air, Maryland 
 

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From: Jeff Frane <jfrane at teleport.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:06:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Is You Is or Is You Ain't?

From: Jerry Cunningham <gcunning at Census.GOV> 
 
 
>Tonight I'm gonna brew an ESB. I wanted to go with all Britsh ingredients, 
>since I got my hands on some Maris Otter, but I couldn't find any whole East 
>Kent Goldings. I did get some "Goldings" from Freshops, which are supposedly 
>"East Kent Goldings that are grown over here". That's how it was explained 
>to me, anyway. Are these similar to the real thing? Does anybody have any 
>experience they can pass on? 
 
 
If they're grown over here (and here isn't Kent), they sure as hell aren't 
East Kent Goldings.  Goldings, sure, but...  I've had some wonderful Goldings 
from British Columbia, but they don't taste anything like the British blend. 
Something changes hops when they're grown in different regions, even from 
the same cultivars.  One of the reasons why Saaz hops from the Czech Republic 
are in such high demand, even with attempts to grown them elsewhere. The soil? 
Dunno, but probably.  Same goes for Goldings; you can plant them elsewhere and 
even grow them, even get good hops, but they simply aren't the same thing. 
 
But use the hops anyway; you've got 'em and they'll certainly make good beer. 
 
=========== 
 
On the subject of sanitizing carboys: do you guys really soak carboys in 
bleach for a week?  Whatever the hell for?  Is there some magic point 
(beyond one hour) where chlorine sanitizes? 
 
Maybe it's time to switch to Iodophor (hint: two minutes). 
 
- --Jeff frane 
 
 
 

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From: Steve_Cloutier at ATK.COM (Steve Cloutier)
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:05:02 -0500
Subject: Uncle Sam, Chili's in beer

 
Hi all, 
 
Ed Steinkamp says: 
 
>Perhaps some Government regulation is in order.  If a brewery, big 
>or small, says their beer is a wheat beer it should have a certain 
>percentage of wheat in it.  If somebody wants to sell an IPA, it 
>should not be a budmillercoors with brown food coloring in it. 
<snip> 
>I really don't like buying something that looks like a micro-beer 
>with a fancy label which promises a craft beer, but actually turn 
>out to be budmillercoors crap. 
 
*rant mode on* 
 I also don't like the disappointment of buying a promising looking micro 
only to have it turn out to be swill.  But please, please don't advocate 
more government regulation.  If it's a health issue, fine.  But every 
homebrewer should be aware of the history of prohibition (gov't regulation 
gone wacko) and the devastating affect that it had on U.S. brewing in 
general and homebrewing in particular until very recently.  We, as consumers 
already have an arsenal of weapons to combat fraud in the marketplace. 
 Complain to the establishment that sold it to you. Complain in writing to 
the brewery.  Most of all, don't buy the product again, and tell everyone 
you know not to buy it.  The price of an insipid sixer is small indeed 
compared to the specter of *big brother* legislating proper beer styles. 
*rant mode off* 
 
Ed also mentioned a tasting where all homebrews were appreciated, with the 
exception of a chili beer.  It sounds like Ed makes good beer, so I guess 
they just weren't chili heads.  I am planning an amber chili ale  (non-chili 
lovers be damned) and would appreciate some tales of grand success, 
collossal failure, or  just guidance on varietal preferences, fresh vs. 
dried, primary vs. secondary, etc.  E-mail would be great. 
TIA. 
 
BTW, Just about split a gut when I read John (the Coyote) Wyllie's musings 
on bergamots, marmots, and Dr. Suess mopheads.  Thanks John (and others) for 
the humorous side of beer.  It really adds a lovely aroma (as in late 
hopping) to the digest. 
 
Steve Cloutier 
Mpls. 
SCloutie at atk.com 
 

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From: smurman at best.com
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:19:17 -0700
Subject: Acronyms

 
What did I miss or mistake?  I guess you can take that as an offer to 
keep the list.  Remember; you were all newbies once. 
 
HSA - Hot Side Aeration 
RIMS - Recirculating Infusion Mash System 
SNPA - Sierra Nevada Pale Ale 
PU - Pilsener Urquell 
DO - Dissolved Oxygen 
LME - Liquid Malt Extract 
DME - Dry Malt Extract 
RO - ???something with water 
HBU - Homebrew Bitterness Units 
IBU - International Bitterness Units 
DMS - Di-Methyl Sulfide?? 
AB - Anheiser Busch 
AHA - American Homebrewers Association 
GABF - Great American Brew Festival 
 
 
SM - Scott Murman 

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From: Jorge Blasig - IQ <gisalb at elmer.fing.edu.uy>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 20:09:43 -0300 (UY)
Subject: Botulism, bleach, my first batch of mead

 
 
Dear Friends: 
 
I started. My first batch will soon be ready. I decided to prepare a mead 
first. Next time I will go for my first batch of beer. So far, everything 
has been OK. It has been fermenting since last 
saturday night. Fermentation started an hour after pitching and it has 
been bubbling without interruption since then. I will rack it to the 
secondary as soon as bubbling stops. 
I have purchase a plastic carboy (LDPE-low density poly ethylene) and 
will probably prepare my first batch of beer next week. I will use an 
extract I could find here and the recipe that D. Burley mailed me a 
couple of weeks ago. Hopefully, everything will be fine. I will use 
plastic for the primary and glass for the secondary. 
 
I have a couple of question though. Is there any chance to have an 
infection with C. botulinum? I am concerned about the possibility that 
people who drink my beer could get botulismn. What should I do to 
minimize the chance to get an infection from this microbe or any other in 
my beer? How would I recognize it? 
 
I have another question. The bleach that you all use to sanitize your 
carboys, does it contain chlorine or not? I sanitize with a product that 
contains chlorine (HClO - sodium hypochloride) and also used another 
product which contains ammonia. I rinsed with tap water several times until 
there is no signs of these products. Did I work correctly? I am concern 
that the chlorine could give some strange flavor to the mead. 
 
I also need the dimensions for a copper immersion wort chiller (3/8" or 
1/4" or 1/2" internal diameter) which allows me to chill aproximately 6 
gallons in a standard time (say 15 minutes). Any suggestions. I worked on 
it and calculated that I would need aproximately 10 feet of copper 
tubing. Am I correct? I will use tap water in the coils and will immerse 
it in pot. 
 
Thanks in advance for your suggestions. 
 
Jorge Blasig 
 
 

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From: Rick Dante <rdante at pnet.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:41:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: unplanted hop rhizomes

 
I've commited a sin! 
 
I obtained about a dozen hop rhizomes last spring that I was to plant 
along a fence that never got built.  The rhizomes have been sitting in the 
fridge ever since. 
 
My question to the green thumbs out there is: 
 
What should I do with the rhizomes? 
 
Should I: 
 A. plant them in small pots until they start to shoot in spring 
 B. leave them in the fridge and plant them in the spring 
 C. give up all hope and purchase fresh rhizomes in the spring 
 
There are still shoots on some of the rhizomes that been hibernating. 
There's some white garden mold/fungus that's lightly gathering around a 
few of them. 
 
Thanks for any input!! 
 
Rick Dante 
rdante at pnet.net 
 

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From: Rick Olivo <ashpress at win.bright.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 19:55:10 -0500
Subject: Glass Vs. Plastic Thing

Loathe as I am to wade into the whole controversy about glass vs. 
plastic... I would offer a few observations. 1.) In 25 years of 
off-and-on homebrewing I have NEVER used anything but plastic. We are 
talking at a fair guess, several HUNDRED homebrews. In that time, I have 
NEVER had a brew that suffered ANY of the multitude of sins that are 
laid at the doorstep of plastic. Anecdotal, yes, but I offer it as 
empirical evidence. I think you can safely say it is of some value as a 
statistical baseline. Now that is not to say that I have had every beer 
come out perfect. I've made plenty of damn fool mistakes (Iodine 
flavored beer (from not rinsing out the too-strong idophor solution)and 
had a few "experiments" go south... (The notorious Ovaltine beer, for 
example)but never any oxidized beer or any abundance of aldehydes, and 
I've never heard in real life of such problems arising where the blame 
could not CLEARLY be laid to poor sanitation or other fault. I'm sorry, 
and i mean no disrespect, but in my experience, it just doesn't happen. 
I speak here largely of polyethylene, but it should also apply, even 
more so to polycarbonate (plastic carboys) because of their tighter 
molecular structure. I have never used vinyl for anything but tubing and 
because of the large amount of volatiles emitted by them, I would avoid 
their use for fermenters, etc. But as regards polyethylene, I am totally 
comfortable in their use because of personal experience, and because of 
a lengthy conversation I had on the subject with a Phillips 
petrochemical engineer who helped to manufacture polyethylene at their 
Odessa, Texas plant. he told me that the possibility of oxygen transfer 
through even low density poly was extremely unlikely, because of poly's 
crystalline structure, which he said had high resistance to penetration 
by water vapor and gasses. "Think about it," he told me. "If poly was 
that penatrable to oxygen, there would be oxidized milk, oxidized food, 
all kinds of problems. It just doesn't happen. Why do you think everyone 
is switching from glass to plastic? Because plastic is cheaper, lighter 
and it works." He also pointed out that polyethylene is the PREFERED 
material for lab work and storage of highly reactive substances 
precisely because it is inert and resistant to oxygen transter. Check to 
see what the ONLY approved transfer containers for items like nitric and 
flouric acid. Poly. Oh yes... If you drop a poly container of flouric 
acid on the floor, what happens? It bounces. Drop a glass beaker... Hit 
the decontam shower and call the HAZMAT hotline. To conclude, I have for 
several years used five gallon poly containers I get free from 
restaraunts (They use em to ship liquid shortning for french Fries) for 
both primary and secondary fermenters. They are easy to put spigots on, 
easy to drill caps for fermentation locks, and a thorough cleaning with 
commercial restaurant de-greaser and VERY hot water gets em totally 
grease free in short order. I use em a couple of times and toss em out 
(They do ding, and I want to avoid leaks.) because they are so cheap. If 
I have an espcially messy trubby brew, I don't scrub, I toss. Ease of 
cleaning? Tell me about it. Again. I mean no disrespect by this, and I 
do not claim to be the final word here. I am not an organic chemist, 
just a homebrewer who knows what has worked for me. Nuff said. 

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From: Matthew Apple <mapple at skyenet.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 21:15:40 -0600
Subject: new address complexities

Dear Mike: 
 
I just subscribed to the HBD to my new email address. Why? Because on 
Tuesday morning this past week, my university officials decided, without 
prior warning, to cut me off from server access. My homepage files and my 
email account were seized and placed under lock and key. I have no idea if 
the account has been accepting new messages or what, because the university 
won't let me know anything at all. Obviously, this is somewhat frustrating. 
Also, since my comp and lit course syllabus was online, my students 
couldn't find their assignments and I had to (gasp) use paper and rewrite 
everything for the past two and future two weeks. Ergh. 
 
Anyways, if you could possibly cancel the subscription I had to the 
address: matthew.t.apple.1 at nd.edu  -- I would greatly appreciate it. I 
can't figure out how else to cancel a subscription to an address I no 
longer control. 
 
So, my new address is mapple at skyenet.net, and my new brew (the first since 
late May!) is a sort of nutty brown ale kinda thingey with LOTS of hops. I 
used a yeast starter for the first time, and the fermentation began less 
than 12 hours after innoculation. After about a day and a half the yeast 
kind of pooped out, so I'm debating whether I should use another dry yeast 
packet when I siphon the beer to the secondary. I've experienced some 
fairly weak brews the past couple of batches, and I want to avoid that. 
 
Thanks for all your help. 
 
Matt A. 
 
 

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From: Eugene Sonn <eugene at dreamscape.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:31:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: traveling beer

HBDers, 
 Just one more datapoint on traveling by air with beer.  I was 
visiting a friend in San Francisco and wanted to bring homebrew.  I called 
the airline I was flying (Continental....no afffiliation and I actually 
didn't like the flight much anyway) to ask if it was ok. They said no 
problem and I took it in my carry-on luggage.  It went through the x-ray 
machine.....and the operator made a comment about me having a happy 
flight.  So, my point is that this airline......Continental.....had no 
problems with me carrying beer with me, even when I made sure they knew I 
was taking it with me. 
 Murphy's law says your mileage will vary, but of course Murphy 
hasn't been batting so well as evidenced by that dropped yet not busted 
carboy. 
 
Eugene 
a Red Sox fan who doesn't want to root for the Braves but just can't cheer 
for those pesky Yankees. 
 

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From: prestonm at labyrinth.net.au (Mark Preston)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 17:15:54 +1000 (EST)
Subject: How do I do this brewing?? 

 
Hello folks, 
 
Well I have read Charlie Paps book C.J.H.B. and really I don't feel all that 
comfortable with starting that first step towards full grain brewing.. 
Could someone recomend another publication that would give me cinfidence to 
take that first step... E-Mail replies prestonm at labyrinth.net.au 
 
 
M.S.P.. 
 
The little guy who is sick of brewing from cans... 
 

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From: beerdogs at cyclops.dcache.net (beerdogs)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 08:59:14 -0500
Subject: rims/rye/weiss yeasts

thanks to all who responded.  you all helped me to escape the dark 
coagulated chasm of ignorance. 
 
btw, to those of you who have not tried it, i just brewed the rye stout a 
la  hbd about three years ago (george f????, i cant remember).  tanks to 
the poster whomever you may be!!!  if you havent tried it, the rye gives a 
dry crispness to the stout that i have never seen before!  the beer of my 
dreams!!  now i have have seen the light and the light is Rye-T On! rye 
stout (tm).  if i were to redo it though, and im sure i will, i will drop 
the chocolate malt and just go for that guiness dankness. 
 
does anyone know about what hefe-yeasts are viable for culturing??  i dug 
around at the brewery and found only that most of my favorite bavarian 
wheats use a bottling strain.  has anyone had success in culturing a wheat 
yeast from a bottle and if so which was it??? 
 
personal email appreciated :-) 
 
smiles, rainbows, peace, love and 
 
Cheers to all, 
Rod, owner/ operator of South Shore Ale Styles, Catawba Island, Oh. 
CURRENT OFFERINGS INCLUDE:  Rye-T On! (tm) rye stout, Positron Pale Ale and 
soon to feature the Motley Cow Hefeweissen. 
 
***  "[the] supply of beer was exhausted somewhat earlier than the 
organizers of the migration scheme had anticipated, and that, therefore, a 
landing was effected at the rather uninviting spot since then immortalized 
in song and story as Plymouth Rock."           -G. Thomann, New York, 
November 1909   *** 
 
 

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From: Brian Travis <zeltar at atl.mindspring.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 08:55:25 -0400
Subject: RIMS Question:  Lautering

A question for all you experienced RIMS'ers out there:   How do you handle 
sparging?   I just sampled my first batch on the new RIMS and was shocked at 
the astringency of this batch.  This was one of my standard recipes so I am 
sure the problem relates to inexperience with my new system.  This was a 5 
gallon batch.  I mashed in at 135F adjusted ph to 5.2 by adding 2 tsp chalk 
(for some reason pre-boiling my brew water REALLY drops the ph of the water) 
and held a 30 minute rest.  Ramped to 148F for a 40 minute rest then to 158F 
for 30 minutes.  I mashed out at 168F and held this temp for 10 minutes 
before beginning my sparge.  I add nothing to my sparge water (since it is 
low ph to begin with).  Here is where I may have messed up - during 
lautering, I continued recirculating the mash while diverting a small 
portion to the brewpot rather than just allowing the entire mash runoff to 
flow slowly to the kettle.  I periodically pumped more sparge water into the 
mash tun to keep the level above the grain bed.   I am wondering if the 
recirculation during lautering, particularly late during the process  was, 
in effect, over sparging?  I did not take gravity readings or ph readings of 
the run off, since in the 20 or so times I have brewed this recipe with my 
old system, I just collected a fixed amount of wort for the boil and never 
had any astringency problem.  The only change to my recipe this time was the 
use of Great Western 2 Row as opposed to my usual Breiss 2 Row, but I doubt 
that would account for the problems.  Any advice appreciated! 
 
Brian Travis 
zeltar at mindspring.com 
or 
tarvus at mindspring.com 
Brian Travis 
zeltar at atl.mindspring.com 
 

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From: M257876 at sl1001.mdc.com (BAYEROSPACE)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 13:36 -0600
Subject: born on...

collective homebrew conscience: 
 
i have been in maryland for the past two weeks, and away from the forum. man, 
this stuff piles up fast. 
 
just a recent experience to share:  i bought a 6 of oregon pale ale the other 
night.  took it to my hotel room, poured the first bottle, and , ugh! a 
bunch of nasty trub-looking crap started coming out.  inspection of the 
other 5 revealed what looked like proteinaceous material in the bottoms of 
each of them.  and quite a bit.  so i took the beer back and got an exchange. 
 
i noticed also that the expiration date was april of this year. 
 
i've commented before about the importance of freshness and shelf life, and 
this experience only reaffirms the notion in my mind. 
 
anheuser may be using this "born on" dating as a marketing tool, but i think 
i would actually prefer to know when a beer was bottled than not have that 
information. 
 
of course we homebrewers have the best situation in this regard. 
 
brew hard, 
 
mark bayer 

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From: shane at cais.cais.com
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 15:18:57 -0400
Subject: A List Of Mail - Order Stores

I think it would be nice if the HBD advertised Mail - Order stores that carry 
beer making supplies, nationally & internationally. The 
ads would include the name of the store, address(snail mail), phone #, 
Web page & Email address (if any). Opinions? 

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From: Gary Eckhardt <gary_eckhardt at realworld.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 18:07:47 -0500
Subject: Filtering Question !?

Hello all, 
 
I filtered my first batch of beer last night using my new filter. 
Although the beer turned out great, I was wondering something. 
 
I racked my beer from the fermenter into a keg, hooked up keg taps 
to both "OUT's" on the kegs, and hooked up the filter between the 
two.  I then applied what I thought would be an adequate PSI to 
push the beer through, 5psi.  It started veeeery slowly, so I started 
inching up the psi.  I ended up pushing the beer through using about 
25psi, and although it was foaming, the foam settled out in the 
final keg and everything was OK.  The entire process took about 2 
hours, however, and although I enjoyed the time to drink a few 
brews, it was rather slow. 
 
What psi does everyone else use?  Would chilling the beer before 
filtering help?  What other processes would help/do people do? 
 
Thanks for any info. 
 
- ---------------------------+---------------------------------------------- 
Gary Eckhardt              |   "in this day & age...music performed by 
Database Consultants, Inc. |    humans...hum!?"  --wilde silas tomkyn 
dcigary at txdirect.net       |                R,DW,HAHB! 
gary_eckhardt at realworld.com| R^3 = "Real World.  Real Smart.  Real 
Quick." 
(210)344-6566              |         http://www.realworld.com/ 

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From: husky at juno.com (Daniel R. Burke)
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 20:40:55 EDT
Subject: Carbonater Caps

I just bit the bullet and bought a carbonater cap a week ago, and I've 
got to admit while it's pricey as hell, I wish *I* had thought of it. 
 
I want to bottle part of a batch in 20 oz PET Coke bottles (thinking, 
wow... an imperial pint, ready to go, in minutes...)  My experiments with 
force carbonating in these has been pretty favorable so far;  I've 
carbonated just about every liquid I can get in the refrigerator. 
 
So here's the question:  Once you carbonate one of these Coke bottles, 
are you stuck with leaving the $12 carbonater cap on there until you 
drink it, or can you take it off, replace it with the regular bottle cap, 
and then do the next one? 
 
How about if you chill them to near freezing first to increase the gas 
solubility, and then the pressure that you lose switching caps wouldn't 
be so great at a normal refrigerated temperature?  Any experience in this 
regard? 
 
Carbonating one at a time as they're consumed seems kind of a pain in the 
ass, and I'm *way* too cheap to buy enough Carbonater caps to do a whole 
batch at once.  And no, I'm not too interested in using 2 liter PET 
bottles, although I might have to reconsider. 
 
Thanks, 
Dan 
husky at juno.com 

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From: awalsh at crl.com.au (Andy Walsh)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 12:55:32 +1000 (EST)
Subject: plastic

Hi. 
I don't want this to go into one of these never-ending threads that bore 
everybody to death, but there are a couple of questions that need answering. 
 
From Guy Gregory.. 
>The tone of the conversation thus far suggests to me that  we US'ers are 
>overafraid of oxidation reactions and scratching of proper plastic, and I 
>think the "Oz"zies are overconcerned about the danger of glass carboys. 
 
Aussies scared of anything? Hah! 
I have both types and use both. I mentioned a friend who had a very nasty 
accident with a glass carboy. This happened, but it just means you have to 
be careful (which I am). I can assure you the danger thing is not a real 
issue for us. 
The main reasons I prefer plastic were posted previously. My 60l glass 
carboy does not fit in *any* fridge I own. Very inconvenient. It is a 
practical thing and the beer quality does not appear to suffer by using 
plastic.
 
> Lets relax, OK?  Brew with what ya got.  What kinda plastic are you using, 
>mates? It does make a difference. 
The plastic we use is HDPE (which *was* mentioned in my previous post). 
Remember this thread started because there was an ignorant assertion made 
that use of  plastic in brewing leads to stale and/or infected beer. This is 
a recurring issue on the HBD that needed correcting. That's it. I'm certain 
that even my rantings will make zero difference, and we'll still see this 
type of statement again in a few months. 
 
and from Michael Owings.. 
> Andy,  do you feel the extra head space in the bucket 
>poses a problem for secondary use?  I gather the HDP cubes you mention 
>are somewhat more airtight than the buckets (assuming I'm thinking of 
>the right HDP cubes). 
> 
 
The cubes we have here are about 20l with a screw on lid that is about 8cm 
in diameter. The plastic thickness is 3mm or so. They are pretty much 
airtight, and you can throw them around without worrying about beer 
splashing everywhere. I fill them to the brim to give minimal headspace. 
Being stackable means they take up little floor area. 
 
A normal primary bucket could be used, but the ones we get here don't seal 
very well, which would concern me. The additional headspace would not be a 
problem if you rack a little earlier than usual, while the beer was still 
active. CO2 could also be used from your gas bottle to purge the thing 
before use. 
 
I'd be surprised if the cubes were not available in the USA. They are used 
to carry water. Try a camping shop. 
 
Andy. 
The Stainless Steel Snob. 
 

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From: Rob Moline <brewer at kansas.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 23:03:23 -0500
Subject: Jethro on Plastic

                        THE JETHRO GUMP REPORT 
 
>From: "Gregory, Guy J." <GGRE461 at ecy.wa.gov> 
>Subject: Plastic 
> 
>A lot has been written lately between "Oz"zies and US readers about plastic. 
>centering on potential for oxidation in plastic. 
 
     The real problem here, between the Ozzies and the Yank's is that 
plastic in the Northern hemisphere doesn't react to oxygen permeability the 
same way as plastic in the Southern hemisphere....This has been well 
documented by Doctor Greg Waite of the "Cane Toad Institute" of Northern 
Queensland in his treatise, "Cane Toads and Compact Disc's.....What's the 
Deal?,"  published by the University of Queensland, Saint Lucia, Qld, and 
co-authored by Joh Bjelke-Peterson. And the same thing that applies to 
plastic CD's applies to fermentation vessels..... 
 
        So, read and learn.... 
 
>From: andersen at s4.elec.uq.edu.au (Hans Andersen) 
>> 
>> Don't listen to them.  To play American CDs in Australian CD 
>> players, you will need to regroove them.  This is because Australian 
>> CDs have a different track-width (i.e. 10 ums instead of 5 ums).  To 
>> do this you will need to buy some fine-grade sandpaper.  Try to find 
>> some with a grain size of between 8 and 12 ums (micrometers for 
>> non-technical people).  Put a piece of the sandpaper on a table with 
>> the rough side up.  Now put your CD on the sandpaper and turn it 
>> slowly in a clockwise direction, pushing down hard. 
>> Oiua la (spit) - now you have Australian standard CDs. 
>> 
        And there you have it!!!! 
 
        In Australia, the plastic fermenting pails are ever so gently turned 
in a lathe with decreasing grades of ever finer grit paper, such that there 
is never a scratch evident to harbour bacteria!!! And everyone knows that in 
the Southern hemisphere, the O2 concentration is less than in the Northern 
Hemisphere, (less cars, and trees, you know!)...therefore less available O2 
to permeate!!! (except in Melbourne!!) 
 
        Seppo's could learn much from this mob!!! 
 
Hoo-ray! 
Jethro (Eureka Stockade) Gump! 
 
Cheers! 
Rob Moline 
Little Apple Brewing Company 
Manhattan, Kansas 
 
"The more I know about beer, the more I realize I need to know more about 
beer!"
 

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From: beerdogs at cyclops.dcache.net (beerdogs)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 01:09:52 -0500
Subject: fruit syrups

1)  has anyone else brewed with fruit concentrates??  last time i used one, 
within five or ten days at room tempature it tasted like sour fruit.  not 
just once but two or three times i have had similar experiences.  when i 
used real fruit it never has been a problem.  my question:  what is this? 
i have one theory.  i think that the syrup is rich in oxygen when it 
arrives.  whenever i've added it, it has been in the secondary.  what 
spawned this was papazian's association of oxidation with uric acid.  wht 
does anyone think. 
 
Cheers to all, 
Rod, owner/ operator of South Shore Ale Styles, Catawba Island, Oh. 
CURRENT OFFERINGS INCLUDE:  Rye-T On! (tm) rye stout, Positron Pale Ale and 
soon to feature the Motley Cow Hefeweissen. 
 
***  "[the] supply of beer was exhausted somewhat earlier than the 
organizers of the migration scheme had anticipated, and that, therefore, a 
landing was effected at the rather uninviting spot since then immortalized 
in song and story as Plymouth Rock."           -G. Thomann, New York, 
November 1909   *** 
 
 

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From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 23:49:13 -0700
Subject: Apples, Oranges, Hammers and Screwdrivers

From: Alex Santic <alex at brainlink.com> 
 
 
>As A.K. pointed out, heat loss can be a problem using the EasyMasher with a 
typical brew kettle. I've done one batch with it so far and was
pleased with how well it went, but maintaining a given temperature as 
well as keeping it even throughout the mash was difficult. 
 
Well, it sounds to me like you are trying to turn an apple into 
an orange. 
 
If one chooses to use a kettle for mashing, we assume the one does so in 
order to get better control of the process, viz. any temp at any point 
during the mash.  The price one pays for this capability is gas (heat) 
and the need to stir. 
 
If you do not wish to be bothered with the addition of heat and stirring, 
you should put the EM in an insulated cooler and just be satisfied with 
simple infusion mashes.  But to try to turn a kettle into an insulated 
cooler does not seem to make much sense. 
 
>I used almost-boiling water for the sparge and was never in danger of 
overheating the mash.
 
Contrary to popular opinion, the temperature of the sparge water is 
irrelevant.  All that matters is the mash temp as you have noted.  If 
it takes boiling water to get it right, who cares? 
 
>I probably will use a more typical sparge water temperature once I come up 
with a solution for insulating the kettle.
 
A cooler would be a lot easier. 
 
>Another potential heat-loss problem occurred to me as I was working. Itseems 
plausible that it would be difficult to get a dextrinous wort, or
at least strike an intended balance, with a lot of cool areas in the 
mash. The remaining beta-amylase might make short work of the dextrins 
being created in the hotter parts of the mash. 
 
Me thinks the gentleman worries too much.  Do you think there would be 
no stratification if it were insulated?  The solution is to stir. 
 
>Finally, the only solution to heat loss is to add heat, and when you dothat 
you have to stir pretty well to get it distributed evenly.
 
Folks have been doing that since the dawn of brewing.  That is, unless 
they use insulated coolers. 
 
> All the stirring actually aggravates the heat loss... 
 
Yes but if you add heat, who cares? 
 
> and I'm afraid it results in a good deal of aeration as well. 
Rubbish.  I have a continuous rotary mixer on my tun and so do many 
big time brewers and aeration is not a problem at normal mixing 
rates. 
 
>Insulating the kettle may be a very important issue with the 
Easymasher,otherwise it's a very useful device.
 
Again, you are trying to pound a nail with a screwdriver. 
 
js 
 
 
- -- 
Visit our WEB pages: 
Beer Stuff:  http://dezines.com/ at your.service/jsp/ 
Astronomy:   http://user.mc.net/arf/ 
 

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From: Charlie Scandrett <merino at buggs.cynergy.com.au>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 18:24:25 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Goodbye and Thanks for the Beer!

Bye All, 
 
I would like to sincerly thank all of you who have contributed to my 
understanding of brewing over the last couple of years. It has been 
stimulating and amazing at times. 
 
However life is too short to read all the HBD's, (I'm 12 behind) so I can no 
longer participate in discussions and threads. The digest is obviously 
fermenting like a train. 
 
I will post relevant summarys of my research occasionally, but replies will 
have to be by email as I no longer subscribe. 
 
Charlie (Brisbane, Australia) 
 

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From: Barry Vanhoff <bvanhof at eecs.wsu.edu>
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 9:15:05 PDT
Subject: quick fermenter?

 
Hello, 
 
I'd like to thank everyone who helped me last week with my first 
all-grain brew!  I ran in to the exact opposite problem as I thought 
I would have ... I had to get rid of heat!  The mash was a little 
hotter than I would have liked (.75 qts/lb  at  190F water) at about 
165ish degrees after 15 minutes.  I went with a lower volume 
strike-in, assuming that  I would have to add some heated water 
later due to temp drop (I use buckets).  Well, there was virtually 
no drop without leaving the lid off!! 
 
Anyways, I ended up with a little over 2 gallons ( i was shooting 
for between 2 1/2 and 3) at 1.052 OG.  Now the wierd part is that 
I pitched about 8oz of yeast slurry (yeast started about 3 days 
prior) and within 3 hours there was a serious storm going on inside 
my carboy!  I was psyched to see how fast fermentation began when 
pitching a larger volume of yeast.  However, after about 12 hours, 
it has stopped.  It looks done.  3/4 of an inch of sediment and 
hardly any bubbles at all. 
 
Anyways, thanks again to all who helped.  If anyone has an idea about 
what has happened or maybe some pointers for my next batch (i'll 
probably go with 1 qt/lb  at  170 degrees) that would be great! 
 
 
Barry Vanhoff 
all-grain non-virgin 
 

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From: davidh at melbpc.org.au (David Hill)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 08:27:30 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Killer-chiller

KennyEddy argues when discussing the killer chiller 
that several flat spirals mounted horizontaly 
 one above the other in the wort 
chill better because they overcome the problem of 
temperature gradients forming in wort chilled with one 
horizontal spiral and no agitation. 
 
If that is the case would one flat spiral suspended verticaly 
in the wort chill significantly better (faster) than the common 
single flat spiral used horizontaly?. 
 
If using the spiral in the vertical configuration is an improvement 
it would be certainly simpler and cheaper to construct than the 
four tier killer chiller. 
 
Thoughts?? 
David 
 
David Hill :-)> 
 

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