---

   FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
        Mike Donald, Digest Janitor-in-training
        Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!

Contents:
  Re: A-B; infected micros? (Jeff Frane)
  Will a 5L mini keg filled with beer blow up if I take it on a plane? Will The world end Today? What about Submarines? If a train leaves Texas and another train leaves NYC? ((BEER-GOD-WORSHIP-ME-MORTALS))
  ipa (Brian Dulisse-1)
  Beer Names/Punkin Beer (eric fouch)
  Re: Beer as a travel partner ((Erik Vanthilt))
  Realbeer.com ("Jeffrey M. Kenton")
  Re: trub/pumpkin beer ((Erik Vanthilt))
  Pumpkin Ale experience (Mark Thompson)
  hops and contamination (smurman at best.com)
  Re: Yeast Washing (Joe Rolfe)
  trub in fermenter (Brian Bliss)
  freshness dating (Paul Brian)
  racking off trub ("Bryan L. Gros")
  Re: Drawing #1  (Spencer W Thomas)
  Plastic ("Gregory, Guy J.")
  Price Check:  Big SS Pots ((Mike Spinelli))
  Re: glass snobs ("Chuck and Grace Burkins")
  blue corn (dutch)
  re: glass snobs ((Michael A. Owings))
  CP filling alternative (TEX28 at aol.com)
  URL for KJ's chiller design (Alex Santic)
  Re: Aeration (Dennis Davison)
  Re: Freshness dating ((Sean Cox))

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jeff Frane <jfrane at teleport.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:17:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: A-B; infected micros?

From: Carl Hattenburg <CHattenburg at Perstorp-us.com> 
> 
As thousands 
>of attendees waited for the doors to open for the first night of 
>tastings, an A-B pitchperson tried to recruit people to come over to 
>their school. The crowd booed loudly. Pointing a guy out in the 
>crowd, the pitchperson persisted, inviting him over. "I wouldn't drink 
>your beer if you paid me," he said, which met cheers from the crowd. 
>A-B may have to attend some schooling about the craft-beer 
>audience. 
 
Well, as a long-time member of the craft beer audience, I say if 
A-B makes a good beer, I'll drink it.  I might even start buying 
beer in the grocery store if they do. 
 
> 
>From: michael j dix <mdix at dcssc.sj.hp.com> 
> 
>It used to be said that all microbrewed beer was infected, the 
>difference was only in degree. In fact, I heard Dr. Michael Lewis 
>say that in Davis, several years ago.  In contrast, Dr. Lewis 
>went on to say, the level of sanitation at a large commercial brewery, 
>such as the AB brewery in nearby Fairfield, was far greater than in 
>any operating room. (So much so, that were he to need open-heart 
>surgery, he would request it done at Anheuser-Busch.) 
> 
>So, I am wondering if this is still true.  (not counting mega-micros 
>such as Sierra Nevada.)  If it is, this is a point in favor 
>of contract brewing. When I buy beer, I prefer it to be uninfected. 
> 
 
It used to be said, all right, but said by Michael Lewis.  Years ago, I 
took him a bottle of Bridgeport's Old Knucklehead, the first thing they 
bottled, since Karl Ockert was a former student of Lewis'.  Lewis handed 
it to a graduate student (fellow named Guinard, who you may have heard 
of) with the comment that he loved getting micro-brewed beer for his 
students because otherwise they couldn't study beer infections. 
 
Lewis knows a lot, granted, but he doesn't know everything and on some 
subjects he is certifiably full of it. 
 
The big question is, of course, what is the relevance of sanitation in 
the brewery?  If the point is to make good, flavorable beers on a consistent 
basis, then surgical standards are useless.  One only has to tour a 
few old British breweries to determine that what we think of as essential 
has little to do with the production of fine beer -- but, then, Lewis 
doesn't really *like* beer; the man not only thinks A-B is technically 
superior to craft breweries, he thinks they make better beer. (At dinner, 
during a weekend course in brewpub operations, we were offered a choice 
between Bud and badly-skunked Beck's.  yum.  I stuck to wine.)  A few 
years ago, Lewis addressed a conference and crabbed about all the 
phenols in a specific beer -- a Bavarian weizenbier, in which the phenols 
were not only appropriate, but deliberate.  To Lewis, they were a sign 
of contamination. 
 
I have had beers that revealed problems with sanitation, although a 
good many of them were brewpubs who were using the dried yeast recommended 
to them by, ahem, Michael Lewis.  Most of the bottled craft beers I've 
had that were less than wonderful had problems that were in no way 
related to bacterial problems, but rather poor brewing or poor bottling 
procedure. 
 
Not to mention that you are unlikely to get sick drinking bad beer 
(isn't that your objection?).  Pathogens do not grow in beer. 
 
- --Jeff Frane 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

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From: SMART-ASS at KORZONAS.COM (BEER-GOD-WORSHIP-ME-MORTALS)
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:20:28 -0600
Subject: Will a 5L mini keg filled with beer blow up if I take it on a plane? Will The world end Today? What about Submarines? If a train leaves Texas and another train leaves NYC?

>From: Michael Haring <haring at hawaii.edu> 
>Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:19:30 -1000 
>Subject: [none] 
> 
>Howdy, 
> Will a 5L mini keg filled with beer blow up if I take it on a plane? 
 
That would be really cool. May I suggest the use of plastic explosives and 
a strobe ignition on this type of device. You could also take the Bart 
Simpson approach and have it shaken up really well at the local paint 
store. 
 
>Would I have to sneak it on the plane even if it wont? 
 
Just tell the nice people at the gate (you know, the ones with the dogs and 
guns) That a friend from Cypress packed your bags for you and they will let 
you through with no problem (except for that pleasant cavity search). 
 
 
>What about loaded bottles? 
 
I found these real hard to get into the Casinos but if you can, boy do they 
win the big bucks. GOOD LUCK! 
 
- -Brew-God 
 
 
 

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From: Brian Dulisse-1 <Brian_Dulisse-1 at sbphrd.com>
Date: 18 Oct 96 11:31:45 EDT
Subject: ipa

this is late- sorry, just getting caught up.  a number of folks have said that 
ipa in its traditional form is not available in england.  i was there this 
summer for a couple of weeks, and it is true that none of the ipas i had in the
pubs tasted like what we might expect.  *however*, i took the fuller's tour, 
and at the end they herd everyone into a small bar they have in the basement. 
in theory, they're only supposed to give you a pint, but (on our tour at least)
they are willing to abandon strict construction and interpret that as "a pint 
at a time . . ." in any event, in addition to the half dozen fuller's products 
on handpumps, they also had a number of bottled products.  many were the 
fuller's products exported to the states (the guide told us that the esb and 
london pride exported to the states are made to a higher gravity and had more 
hop bitterness and flavor; side by side tastings makes this apparent); some 
were fuller's products that are only sold in bottles, and solely in england. 
one of these was an ipa, and it tasted more or less like what we might expect a
traditional ipa would taste like.  several of the brits on the tour said they 
had never seen bottles of this stuff anywhere; the guide said it was currently 
in very limited distribution, but that they were considering increasing the 
production run . . .  just a data point 
 

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From: eric fouch <S=eric_fouch%S=fouch%G=eric%DDA=ID=STC021+pefouch%Steelcase-Inc at mcimail.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 96 12:51 EST
Subject: Beer Names/Punkin Beer

 
Date: Friday, 18 October 1996 1:48pm ET 
To: STC012.HONLY at STC010.SNADS 
From: Eric.Fouch at STC001 
Subject: Beer Names/Punkin Beer 
In-Reply-To: Homebrew Digest 
 
Chuck dropped his xmas ale carboy down some steps.  Well, Murphys Law took it 
on the chin, since your carboy didn't break!  It did kind of land sticky side 
down but it didn't break.  My advice is wait it out...you may have to call it 
Hair of the Dog Xmas Landing Lambic, but relax, don't worry, and DRINK IT 
FAST! 
 
If you were as clumsy as me, you wouldn't have a problem with infection: 
I once dropped a 7 gallon fermenter half full with bleach water down the 
carpeted basement stairs.  Lucklily, the wife wasn't home and I got it 
shop vacc'ed up before much bleaching took place.  Anyway, I am now confident 
that I could scrape most anything off my sanitized steps, and not have to 
worry about contamination. 
 
Along the lines of punkin brew:  After accepting a challenge on Skotrats 
Brew-rat-chat page (yadda yadda), this weekend I'll be trying a punkin 
ale in the following fashion: 
Fit a LARGE pumpkin with my patent pending EasyMasher knockoff, mash 6#s 
of grain and one can pre-boiled pumpkin stuff inside the pumpkin and sparge 
from the pumpkin to the brewkettle.  I'll adjust the gravity to about 1.06 
with DME and corn syrup, hop with cascades, flavor with fuggles or something, 
and spice it like a pie. 
 
I'll post a follow-up on Monday and let you know if the mash set up like so 
much plaster. 
 
If you don't want to read about a high gravity hack brewing out of plastic 
and pumpkins, better hit the page down on my tag line Monday! 
 
If you want to offer advice or get in any last second digs, email me at 
home: 
 
fouches at mail.iserve.net 
 
E-man 
CEO 
Bent Dick Yactobrewery 
Kentwood, MI 
 
 

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From: erikvan at ix.netcom.com (Erik Vanthilt)
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:56:41 -0700
Subject: Re: Beer as a travel partner

Michael Haring wrote: 
 
>Will a 5L mini keg filled with beer blow up if I take it on a 
>plane?  Would I have to sneak it on the plane even if it wont?  What 
>about loaded bottles? 
 
Michael, I'm not sure about the 5L mini keg, but I know for a fact 
bottles are o.k. On a recent airline trip, homebrew traveled with me, 
packed securely in my luggage. The bottles remained intact and no 
problems were encountered. As far as I know, though, it is illegal 
to transport alcohol across some state lines, so hide it well! As for 
the mini keg, try it. What could possibly happen? See you on the 
news... 
 
Erikvan at ix.netcom.com 
The Virtual Brewery 
http://www.netcom.com/~erikvan/brewery.html 
 

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From: "Jeffrey M. Kenton" <jkenton at iastate.edu>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:13:26 -0500
Subject: Realbeer.com

I tried to add myself to the Realbeerpage's mailing list at 
rbp-request@ realbeer.com 
 
however, the mail server there bounced me, as there is no such address.  I 
tried again with the address cut and pasted from the posting in HBD 2236, 
same result. 
 
What is the real address? 
 
Thanks for the space 
 
Jeff 
 
Jeffrey M. Kenton    finger for PGP public key 
ElEd/SecEd 301 Teaching Assistant 
N013 Lagomarcino Hall 
jkenton at iastate.edu 
 
 

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From: erikvan at ix.netcom.com (Erik Vanthilt)
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:20:32 -0700
Subject: Re: trub/pumpkin beer

faymi at earlham.edu wrote: 
 
>I've read some passing comments to disadvantages of leaving trub in 
>fermenting wort. What's the scoop on that?  How many of you rack off 
>of trub and to what advantage exactly? 
>I also would like to brew a pumpkin ale from fresh pumpkin.  I've only 
>gotten as far as partial mash-so anybody have a good recipe? 
 
Many believe that straining hops before placing in carboy, and 
transfering wort to a secondary prevents off flavors, among other 
things. But I can't prove it. I've done both strained and unstrained, 
single and dual fermentations, and can't notice much of a difference. 
You can leave hops, etc. in your primary with no ill effects, but it 
should be then racked to a secondary at the appropriate time. Look at 
it this way- if you rack properly, no aeration, contamination, etc., 
then it in no way can harm your beer. 
 
As for the Pumpkin Ale, I just brewed 7.5 gal of the stuff, and my 
recipe seemed to work well. I did an extract, I find it easier with 
fruit beers, using specialty grains. My recipe is as follows: 
 
for 5 gallons: 
 
 7 lb pale malt extract syrup 
 1 lb crystal 60l 
.5 lb cara-pils dextrine(optional) 
 
 1 oz cluster    60 min 
.5 oz hallertaur 30 min 
 
2/3 tsp ground cinnamon 
1/2 tsp ground ginger 
1/2 tsp ground nutmeg 
1/2 tsp irish moss 
 
wyeast #1056, american ale 
 
Use a pumpkin about 12 pounds in size, carve, clean and peel. Do your 
grains... add extract... start boil, add hops, at 30 min add pumpkin 
and hallertaur hops, at 15 min add spices and irish moss. When boil is 
done, remove pumpkin, add to carboy containing 2.5 gal water, pitch 
yeast. 
 
Haven't tried it yet, bottle it today, but it smells great. 
Good luck on your pumpkin ale. 
 
erikvan at ix.netcom.com 
The Virtual Brewery 
http://www.netcom.com/~erikvan/brewery.html 

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From: Mark Thompson <markt at hpdocp3.cup.hp.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:30:12 -0700
Subject: Pumpkin Ale experience

For those of you that read my post on wheat may think that 
i LIKE stuck sparges, but i don't.  Last year i made pumpkin 
ale and i did get a stuck sparge.  I added the pumpkin in at 
the raise from 40-60dC and it took about 90 minutes to get 
all the liquor out.  This time i added the mush in at the 
beginning of the 40dC rest.  After 45 minutes i boosted 
to 60 with hot water and heat.  After the 70dC rest i boosted 
to 75dC and started sparging.  Flow wasn't as fast as normal 
but it was much improved over last year.  I think that the 
40dC rest helped reduce the gums which allowed a reasonable 
flow during the sparge. 
- -- 
*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* 
Mark E. Thompson mailto:mark_thompson at hp.com 
Enterprise Objects Program Networked Computing Division 
Hewlett-Packard Co. Cupertino CA 
*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* 

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From: smurman at best.com
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:30:23 -0700
Subject: hops and contamination

 
This is actually a topical post given the recent discussion of IPA's. 
I had my first contaminated batch recently, and I learned some things 
that I thought were interesting, although I don't want to repeat them. 
 
I saved some slurry from my primary, popped a fermentation lock on it, 
and stuck it in the fridge.  This was my first attempt at doing this 
since I normally don't brew the same style twice in a row.  Anyway, 
the beasties in my fridge climbed through the lock in only two days 
and partied on my slurry.  I should have capped it.  It wasn't 
noticable when I pitched the slurry into the starter, but it sure was 
later.  I didn't pay attention to the starter (hey I've cultured from 
old socks, I'm a pro ...) and just stuck it in the closet.  I've 
always wondered how to spot a contamination.  Let me assure you it's 
unmistakable.  The entire starter had a strange ropy cloudiness to it, 
and it smelled like something went bad in Jersey.  I've since learned 
my lesson, and have a package of dry yeast sitting in the fridge for 
emergency. 
 
Anyway, back to my point.  Here I am with a fermenter full of English 
Bitter and a contaminated starter and no hope of getting any other 
yeast for at least 48 hours.  I quickly reached that state that all 
men have come to at some time - "Fuck It", and pitched the bad 
starter.  The wort was hopped with about 40 IBU's.  The volatile 
ferment, if you could call it that, lasted about three days and was 
notable mainly for the stench it continued to give off.  I almost had 
to toss the whole thing 'cause it was coming out the closet and 
stinking up my bedroom.  DMS would have been welcome.  At seven days I 
racked it to my secondary, on top of both the yeast cake and the 
dry-hop bag from my last batch.  The gravity was only 1.020.  I took a 
reading from it at 11 days and the gravity was still dropping, 
although there are no visible signs of fermentation.  The surprising 
thing to me at both 7 and 11 days was that I could barely taste the 
contamination.  It was definately there in the form of a sourness, but 
it wasn't the worst beer I've ever made (I'll leave that for another 
post). 
 
I think two things helped.  The first is the wort was pretty highly 
hopped to begin with, so some of the bacteria growth was probably 
eliminated, and eventually the yeast could get an upper hand (the 
starter had some hops but not much).  More importantly, the high 
bitterness covers up much of the bad taste; it simply tastes like a 
bitter ale.  The second thing I think helped is the dry hopping.  This 
gave a nice hop aroma and some flavor which also masks the sourness. 
 
This whole episode really showed me how some of the older brews 
probably tasted, and also how some of the brewing practices such as 
IPA's probably came into favor.  Don't view bacteria as your enemy, 
see them as an opportunity to experiment:). 
 
SM 
 
P.S. I've named the beer E.S.Bacterium. 

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From: Joe Rolfe <onbc at shore.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 14:37:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Yeast Washing

for the persons requesting info on yeast washing....... 
 
yes phosphoric acid can do the trick. 
yes it will hamper the yeast and maybe kill thm if ph and time is 
 not watched - you best have a real good ph meter... 
and it will make them clean bacteria wise but if you have any wild 
 ones in there - they will surely love it...and prosper 
 
 
the ph should not go below - if i remember, 2.1 for 1 hour 
there is an overnite wahs of 2.7 for 12 hours or so.... getting the yeast 
real cold with a dilution of sterile water also helps. 
 
siebels has an acid wash packet with info (no connection, just satified 
customer) and it works well. 
 
the yeast will ususally appear very sluggish after the wash, and the first 
beer should be blended, the subsequent batches will be better, getting back 
to normal fermentation characteristics. 
 
the two big points watch the time of contact, pitch right away after 
wash is complete, and insure consistent ph thru the slurry and stirr well. 
 
good luck 
joe 

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From: Brian Bliss <brianb at microware.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 96 13:40:48 CDT
Subject: trub in fermenter

 
faymi at earlham.edu writes: 
>I've read some passing comments to disadvantages of leaving trub in fermenting
>wort. What's the scoop on that? How many of you rack off of trub and to what  
>advantage exactly? 
 
well, one advantage is that a little trub can provide nutrients to 
enhance yeast growth, but I won't go into that part of it... 
 
Noonan says that a major difference between scottish and english brewers 
is that scottish brewers allow more trub to be transferred to the fermenter, 
and that this, in combination with particualar yeast strains, is responsible 
for the "smokey" phenolic character of many scotch ales, and a host of other 
fermentation-by products which cause objectionable off-flavors at first, but 
can degrade into much more pleasant tastes over time. 
 
By contrast, most english ales are quite clean in this regard. 
 
I couldn't agree more.  I feel is it of the utmost importance to separate the 
trub from the beer prior to fermentation for MOST beer styles, but that it is 
important to allow some trub in the fermenter for scotch ale.  I also allow 
a little trub in the fermenter when making lambics, but that's about it. 
 
bb 
 
 
- ------------------------------ 

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From: Paul Brian <pbrian at Tudor.Com>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 96 15:01:30 -0400
Subject: freshness dating

Just another data point on the freshness dating thread- 
 
Yesterday I noticed that Red Hook has changed from a 'best before' date to 
a 'bottled on' date on their labels.  I doubt it's a coincidence that this 
change coincides with A-B's 'born on' campaign.  And we thought the 
relationship 
between these two companies was just in distribution! 
 
Cheers, 
Paul 
 
 

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From: "Bryan L. Gros" <grosbl at ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:39:52 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: racking off trub

Michael writes: 
>I've read some passing comments to disadvantages of leaving trub in fermenting
>wort. What's the scoop on that? How many of you rack off of trub and to what  
>advantage exactly? 
 
This topic is what someone in a previous digest was referring to in Brewing 
Techniques. 
 
Basically, (from memory), someone wrote in saying they have made around 80 
batches of beer and never had a decent fermentation.  Long lag times, sluggish 
fermentation, and high FG.  They tried improvements, bought an aerator, then 
went to pure O2, bigger starters, yeast nutrient etc.  Then he discovered the 
problem (maybe). 
Seems that he normally ran the wort from the kettle to the carboy, waited 
overnight for the break to settle out, then racked off the sediment and 
pitched.
Fermentation was normal when he finally pitched immediately and didn't 
rack.  Seems like the yeast didn't work well without the trub. 
 
Well, various BT experts chimed in their opinions about this "experiment" and 
they weren't especially convinced that trub is a necessary ingredient in a 
healthy fermentation. 
 
I've read that trub often contains things (like lipids, trace minerals etc) 
which 
can help yeast growth, especially if the wort is under-aerated.  But if you're 
pumping in pure O2, then the yeast should reproduce and ferment normally 
even w/o the trub. 
 
Any of our resident brewing chemists want to address this issue?  As for me, 
I don't bother racking off the trub before primary fermentation. I'm too lazy, 
and I'm happy with the clarity and attenuation of my beer. 
 
 
          - Bryan 
            grosbl at ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu 
            Nashville, TN 
 

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From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:23:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Drawing #1 

In digest 2230, Ken Sullivan wrote: 
 
> I designed and made a truly great wort chiller! ... 
 
I've put together a web page with the drawings and the original 
message, at my beer page, <http://realbeer.com/spencer/>.  Follow the 
link to "Frequently asked questions", then "Other equipment", then 
"Immersion chiller by Ken Sullivan". 
 
=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu) 

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From: "Gregory, Guy J." <GGRE461 at ecy.wa.gov>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 96 12:39:00 PDT
Subject: Plastic

 
A lot has been written lately between "Oz"zies and US readers about plastic. 
centering on potential for oxidation in plastic.  It turns out that the type 
of plastic is important in understanding how real this potential is.  Robert 
M. Koerner, in his book "Designing with Geosynthetics", discusses 
permeability of various plastics for use as landfill liners.  The test for 
permeability of these plastics is done using water vapor, according to ASTM 
test D96, measuring the amount of water vapor which is transmitted through 
various plastic compounds. The test  uses water vapor rather than liquid 
because plastics do transmit vapors and gases easier than liquids (pretty 
intutitve, right?) and they can easily set up an extreme humidity gradient 
to get results in less than a lifetime.   Representative values from this 
book are : Thermoplastic PVC  (Polyvinyl chloride, 0.76 mm thick) transmits 
4.4 grams water vapor per square meter per day; the thermoplasic elastomer 
CSPE (Hypalon, 0.89 mm thick) transmits 0.44 grams per square meter per day; 
and the crystalline thermoplastic HDPE (High Density Polyethylene, 0.80 mm 
thick) transmits 0.017 grams per square meter per day. 
HDPE, then, is at least 3 orders of magnitude less permeable than PVC to 
water vapor. 
Other vapors and gases will have similar  values of permeability, 
proportional to their molecular size and attraction of the material.  A test 
for this is ASTM D1434, I think. 
 
In general, I think that HDPE, being non-chemically reactive (it cannot be 
glued, it must be heat joined), and having a very low permeability is a 
reasonable choice which will probably avoid oxidation due to the material 
alone above the taste threshold of any other than the most anal beer judge. 
Obviously, YMMV.   In the US, paint buckets are often made of HDPE.  PVC is 
relatively permeable, and is indeed reactive chemically (though perhaps not 
with beer) so is probably a poor choice.  Lots of "food grade" buckets are 
made with PVC.  They get pretty limp when hot, say in a zapap lauter tun. 
 
Scratching is another issue, though HDPE is very tough relative to PVC.  I 
brew in glass, because glass carboys are available and cheap here, as well 
as being easy to clean.  I used to brew in HDPE buckets, and made good beer 
IMHO. 
 
The tone of the conversation thus far suggests to me that  we US'ers are 
overafraid of oxidation reactions and scratching of proper plastic, and I 
think the "Oz"zies are overconcerned about the danger of glass carboys. 
 Lets relax, OK?  Brew with what ya got.  What kinda plastic are you using, 
mates? It does make a difference. 
 
GuyG4 at aol.com 
Guy Gregory 
Lightning Creek Home Brewery 

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From: paa3983 at dpsc.dla.mil (Mike Spinelli)
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 96 14:48:11 edt
Subject: Price Check:  Big SS Pots

HBDers, 
I found a source that has food grade 55 gallon SS drums (used) for $350 a 
piece.
 They also have SS pots (used) in the 30-40 gallon range for $300 each.  Lids 
are not included with these. 
 
Are these prices good/average or high? 
 
Thanks 
Mike Spinelli in Cherry Hill NJ 
 

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From: "Chuck and Grace Burkins" <burkins at oa.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 06:43:35 -0400
Subject: Re: glass snobs

Andrew writes: 
 
> PS. So why is it OK in practice to lager in plastic, when plastic 
is 
> clearly more oxygen permeable than glass? I'm not sure, but here 
are 
> some thoughts: 
> - the oxygen transfer into the beer through the plastic is *very* 
slow. 
> - lagering still tends to take place on a reasonable amount of 
yeast. As 
> has been posted many times before, yeast is an excellent reducing 
agent. 
> Megaswill is very prone to oxidation as it is devoid of live yeast. 
 
> 
 
How about the solubility of Oxygen being nil in a solution which is 
saturated in carbon dioxide? If this was the protective mechanism, 
how long into the lagering period would it last? 
 
Chuck Burkins,    Dedham, Mass. USA 
burkins at oa.net 

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From: dutch <leake.5 at osu.edu>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 15:48:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: blue corn

hello all 
I've been on vacation and very busy so have not gotten the hbd for two 
months or so. I'm back now and am happy to see everyone is still putting out 
plenty of info. I have some on brewing with blue corn meal and even though 
it's a little late (I'm still busy) here it is. 
 
Three weeks ago I brewed a batch (5 gal) of beer using 2lb of blue corn 
meal. The other grains were 7 1/2lb Ireks pils malt and 1/2 lb Ireks lt. 
crystal, 2-3 lovibond. Yeast american 1056 hops hal. hersbrucker  at  3.2 (1 
1/2 oz to bitter no finishing woops) The run off was horrible! The blue corn 
meal was ground too fine, maybe? When I started recirculating the runnings 
were cloudy but cleared very quickly, good, but i latter realized that much 
of what was clouding the runnings were betta glucans (I think.) These formed 
an impermeable to water layer on top of my grain bed.  I collected runnings 
for a total of four hours including two reheatings on the stove and 
restirings after the heatings. I quit with only three gal. of wort which I 
diluted after boiling to make five gal. total. Each time I disturbed the bed 
I recirculated the cloudy runnings hopeing the glucans would get stuck 
throughout the grain bed but his did not happen. Oh before I added the corn 
to the mash I cooked it for 20 min. at a simmer. I added the corn to 1 1/2 
gal boiling water and it was very lumpy next time I would add the water to 
the corn. 
 
If I did this beer again with the same ingredients I would put a layer of 
cheese cloth on top of the grain bed and after recircing lift the cloth and 
hopefully the impermeable layer. 
 
I said before that I thought the corn meal was too fine because I was 
thinking that if the corn was not so fine the glucan particles would be 
bigger and get stuck throughout the grain bed and therefor not be such a 
problem. I am not sure this is would happen though. Also most books talk 
about brewing with flaked corn or grits. Grits are coarser than meal and 
flaked is made from grits. 
 
On using whole corn I would not advise this. Corn has a fat high fat 
content, around 20% I think. Most of this fat is in the germ which is 
removed before making corn meal and grits. The corn meal I used had a fat 
content of 1.4% which is a little high for brewing (I like to keep 
ingredients under 1% fat.) 
 
Now how is my beer. The stating gravity was 1038. The gravity when racking 
into the secondary (4 days) was 1012. The beer was balanced toward the 
sweet. I panicked when I collected so little wort and cut way back on the 
hops and forgot to compensate for a somewhat concentrated boil. Other than 
this the beer was good, corny but good. The color was darker than I expected 
some of which was due to the blue corn and some was due to a long boil for 
some of the runnings. I did not want them to get cold so on the burner they 
sat. I was hoping for purple after I saw the corn in the mash but most of 
the purple stayed in the glucans. They were still intensely purple when I 
threw them into the compost. The beer did have a strange orange tint though 
at racking. I hope to bottle it Wed. and can update anyone who is interested. 
 

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From: mikey at waste.com (Michael A. Owings)
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 20:26:23 GMT
Subject: re: glass snobs

Actually,  Mister,   we prefer to be called "The World-Wide Glass 
Carboy Cabal" (or WGCC for short),  and you can bet that as soon as we 
finish picking these shards out of our  a** ,  we're gonna come 
looking for you ... 
 
Yadda,  yadda -- but seriously -- I don't find that cleaning the 
carboys is really much of a chore.  Handling and storing them however 
is a tremendous pain.  I've broken TWO (count 'em) in the last year. 
A rake fell on one stored in the garage,  and as I related to the HBD 
last year,  I bumped another on the concrete rim of my outdoor drain 
while emptying it of sanitizing solution,  and it just sort of ... 
exploded.  It was kind of neat,  actually,  except for the lacerations 
on my wrist. Yeah,  I know.  Use a carboy handle,  or a milk crate, 
or whatever.  Yadda,  yadda (see what a useful phrase that is?) 
 
I have taken to doing my primaries now in a 10 gallon stainless pot w/ 
a tight fitting lid,  and have considered switching to the standard 
HDP buckets for use as a secondary (I always lager and serve from 
corny kegs).  Andy,  do you feel the extra head space in the bucket 
poses a problem for secondary use?  I gather the HDP cubes you mention 
are somewhat more airtight than the buckets (assuming I'm thinking of 
the right HDP cubes). 
 
Thanx in advance , 
Michael Owings, =20 
Comptroller, WGCC =20 
*********************** 
Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. 
The courage to change the things I can. *** And the wisdom to=20 
hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they pissed=20 
me off *** 

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From: TEX28 at aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:05:42 -0400
Subject: CP filling alternative

Thanks for all the responses to my impending high-pressure bottling disaster. 
 
Actually I was not clear on my process. I intended to counter pressure fill 
at 5-10 psi to reduce foaming, but as several people have warned, foaming is 
unavoidable at room temps. As I have no extra fridge, the idea is to fill & 
refrigerate 'to go' bottles as necessary while keeping the remaining kegged 
beer safe at home, always at the ready for a spontaneous road trip. I have 
found an alternative. A company called Liquid Bread (no affiliation, etc., 
etc.) makes a $10 device called 'The Carbonator'. Basically it is a corny keg 
'in' valve adapted to screw onto a PET bottle. Fill your bottle, screw on the 
device, hook up your CO2 & shake. A couple minutes later - carbonated beer! 
(or anything else for that matter.) I can fill bottles straight from my keg 
at a low pressure with minimum foaming. Just put a foot of tubing on the 
cobra faucet to reach the bottom of the bottle. The best thing since liquid 
bread! (sorry, I had to.) Our tailgate is saved! 
Thanks to all, Chris 

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From: Alex Santic <alex at brainlink.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:22:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: URL for KJ's chiller design

I've given a temporary Web home to Ken Sullivan's wort chiller design 
drawings. If you wish to view them with your browser, just hit the 
following URL: 
 
http://www.salley.com/chill/ 
 
Alex Santic 
NYC 
 

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From: Dennis Davison <ddavison at execpc.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:38:12 +0600
Subject: Re: Aeration

Bill Giffin mentions: 
 
>So far I have used most of the yeast the Wyeast has provided as well as 
>many from the other yeast labs.  I have never had a difficult 
>fermentation with any of these yeast and all the fermentations completed 
>in a reasonable time.  So the copper tubing doesn't increase the O2 much 
>but it seems to provide enough. 
 
>Wort pH, nutrients in the wort, temperature of the wort, and the amount 
>of yeast slurry pitch have about as much affect on the fermentation asdo 
>the amount of O2 in the wort. 
 
You are correct Bill. There are several variables that must be 
considered. For the tests that I did, a 1 liter starter was I used. I 
feel that this is really to small, 250ml of pure slurry would be better, 
but most homebrewers don't re-pitch thier slurry, they just pop another 
packet or start a new vial. Also the article states that there were not 
any major changes in flavor associated with higher levels of DO. I noted 
the fermentation characterisitcs. I never studied what the lowest level 
of DO could be and maybe that's something to look at for future tests. 
 
Amounts of DO will be disputed and talked about for years to come. I 
just touched the tip of the iceberg by giving homebrewers some idea as 
to the levels they are achieving with various methods. Al is correct in 
that each yeast strain can require a different level of O2. Late kettle 
hopping could also be effected by over aeration. There are hundreds of 
tests and experiments that could be run for the right people. 
 
- -- 
Dennis Davison    mailto:ddavison at execpc.com  
 
  BJCP Representative for the Midwest 
   BJCP President 
 
http://www.execpc.com/~ddavison/bjcp.html 

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From: scox at factset.com (Sean Cox)
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 17:38:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Freshness dating

>From: Rob Moline <brewer at kansas.net> 
>        If you look at freshness dating, it appears to be a noble concept, 
>but what does it really mean in terms of different beers? An American 
>pilsener may indeed need to tossed after 120 days, but what about beers like 
>Big 12 Barleywine? It is my feeling that it should easily last and continue 
>to improve for a decade or more! (As long as it is packaged properly and 
>stored correctly.) 
 
 Actually, a recent experience showed me how long cheesy American 
"Pilseners" can actually last.  My wife & I had a party a few weeks ago, and 
two friends brought Coors Extra Gold (it was mostly-BYOB, some friends don't 
appreciate homebrew), one of them brought some from a party he had a couple 
weeks earlier, the other brought some that he'd had in his fridge for "a while"
that someone noticed had a "National Firefighters Week 1994" (yes, ninety-four)
on the front.  None of the people who tried the brews could tell them apart... 
 Kinda scary, huh? 
 
 --Sean 
_______________________________________________________ 
Sean Cox, Systems Engineer     FactSet Research Systems 
scox at factset.com               Greenwich, CT 

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