---

   FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
        Mike Donald, Digest Janitor-in-training
        Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!

Contents:
  Re: Fermenting in plastic ("korz")
  Personal attacks ("korz")
  Whole hops, siphoning, and beer loss (Matt Hughes)
  Aswers and responses I just made (eric fouch)
  RE: Guiness HBD2240 ("Genito, Michael A.")
  All-grain setup comments requested (Dave Riedel)
  Double Decoction Mash (smurman at best.com)
  Tannins in beer  (Hugh Petersen)
  AHA Bashing (Jim Liddil)
  Braggot ((John Taylor))
  RE: Low Gravities (David Conger)
  EasyMasher (TM) (Ian Smith)
  Love it! (Paul Mansour)
  Jethro On Plastic (Rob Moline)
  O2 diffusion (Dave Whitman)
  RE: the plastic debate..... (Joe Rolfe)
  Yeast ((Mark Andrizzi))
  RE: Chlorine, water and taste (John.E.Carsten at oklaosf.state.ok.us)
  2 Yeast Types (Steve)
  Bashing the big guys and Dateline ((Charles Burns))
  RE:Sabco Mashtun (Imakebeer at aol.com)
  A-B Thread ("Chris Nardo")
  Sorghum Beer: The Ongoing Saga (Michael Gerholdt)
  RE: Pumpkin Ale (Neck pumpkins)???? (Ken Sullivan)
  copper and brass in beer ("Taber, Bruce")

For SUBMISSIONS to be published, send mail to:
  homebrew at aob.org
For (UN)SUBSCRIBE requests, send mail to:
  homebrew-digest-request@ aob.org
  and include ONLY subscribe or unsubscribe in the BODY of the message.

Please note that if subscribed via BEER-L, you must unsubscribe by sending
  a one line e-mail to listserv at ua1vm.ua.edu that says: UNSUB BEER-L
If your address is changing, please unsubscribe from the old address and
  then subscribe from the new address.
If your account is being deleted, please be courteous and unsubscribe first.
For technical problems send e-mail to the Digest Janitor,
homebrew-digest-owner at aob.org.

OTHER HOMEBREW INFORMATION
  http://www.aob.org/aob - The AHA's web site.
  http://alpha.rollanet.org - "The Brewery" and the Cat's Meow Archives.
  info at aob.org - automated e-mail homebrewing information.

ARCHIVES:
  At ftp.stanford.edu in /pub/clubs/homebrew/beer via anonymous ftp.  Also
  http://alpha.rollanet.org on the web and at majordomo at aob.org by e-mail.

COPYRIGHT:
  As with all forums such as this one, copyrights are retained by the
  original authors. In accordance with the wishes of the members of the
  Homebrew Digest, posts to the HBD may NOT be sold or used as part of a
  collection that is sold without the original authors' consent. Copies
  may ONLY be made available at no charge and should include the current
  posting and subscription addresses for the HBD.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "korz" <korz at xnet.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 14:11:09 +0000
Subject: Re: Fermenting in plastic

Dave writes: 
> Plastic is no harder to sanitize reliably-- it is only if there are 
> scratches present that it is an issue.  Scratches in a plastic 
> fermenter are so laughably easy to prevent that it scarcely bears 
> mentioning.  What do you put in a plastic fermenter besides liquid? 
 
 The scratches come with the pail.  I happen to be a home now and 
have five different types of white HDPE buckets downstairs that 
are commonly used by homebrewers.  I just went down and 
checked two brand new ones (which were scratched during 
manufacturing) and II recall vividly that the other three were 
scratched when I got them. 
 
Since I don't know much about plastic bucket manufacturing 
(although I know two guys in the Chicago Beer Society and 
one in Brewers of South Suburbia who work in injection moulding, 
so I could ask them if anyone really cares) so I can only speculate 
the sources of the scratches.  Some of the scratches are along the 
long axis (perhaps from stacking the buckets?) and some are 
semi-circumferential (perhaps from unmoulding?).  Besides that, 
when the time comes to clean the brown ring off the walls of the 
fermenter (unless you skim), it is very tempting for brewers to 
use a brush to clean the ring off (soaking in bleach solution 
dissolves it without scrubbing -- I've found a week at 1tbsp/gal 
to be about the proper time to give scrub-free cleaning) and this 
will no-doubt scratch the fermenter. 
 
 In an upcoming monograph, I have written that a soft sponge or 
paper towels should be used to clean the inside of a plastic 
fermenter. I guess I could have included a soft cloth too, but I just 
wanted to point out that I have not villified plastic fermenters 
in the book: I have simply pointed out the pros and cons and given 
suggestions to prevent problems. 
 
> No one will question that plastic is more permeable to oxygen than 
> is glass.  The real question is: does it matter?  Is it enough to 
> affect the beer's flavor? Al, you have posted before that your 
> experience with aldehydes appearing in a beer fermented in plastic 
> amounts to one (1) batch-- please advise if I am mistaken. 
 
Once bitten, twice shy.  I am very sure I don't want to repeat 
that batch (15 gallons of beer down the toilet). 
 
> Plastic gets this knee-jerk, out of hand dismissal all the time and I 
> strongly believe it is unwarranted.  The risk of bodily harm so far 
> outweighs the tiny probability of scratching the plastic that it 
> seems silly to risk it-- like driving without a seatbelt.  When I 
> return to the States next year I will gladly keep using plastic until 
> and unless it can be demonstrated to me that there is a *measurable* 
> and *noticeable* influence on the taste of beer brewed in that way. 
 
I have quite a bit more experience with other brewers' beers being 
high in aldehydes -- I have judged many.  I can't say whether the 
problem was a plastic fermenter, a poorly-fitting stopper, a dried- 
out airlock, aeration during bottling, HSA oxidising melanoidins 
and then releasing that oxygen later to the alcohols, or some other 
source.  I can tell you that it is a problem for some brewers.  In 
the US glass carboys up to 7 gallons in size are easy to find and 
5 gallon ones can be had for less than $10.  In Oz, the situation 
appears to be different. 
 
I (personally) feel that glass outweighs plastic because of 
sanitation and oxidation concerns.  We obviously disagree, but that 
doesn't mean that great beer can't be made both ways.  I still don't 
recommend more than a couple of weeks in plastic (perhaps a gasketted 
lid would make this concern moot, but (frankly) I'm afraid to risk a 
batch finding out.  You have some data points in one direction. 
Perhaps some others can post experience in support of my position. 
 
> Yours in friendly disagreement, 
 
Indeed -- the best kind of disagreement! 
Al. 
 
Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL 
korz at xnet.com 

Return to table of contents


From: "korz" <korz at xnet.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 14:27:16 +0000
Subject: Personal attacks

I hate to have to address this in the HBD, but when someone slanders 
me publicly, I must clarify publicly. 
 
 Dennis writes: 
 > The credibility of your brewing advice plunges IMO when your credibility as 
 > a debater falls to such gutter tactics. 
 
 I call them as I see them.  Saying that another poster is posting 
 "baloney" is not a personal attack and not "gutter tactics." 
 
 Dennis adds: 
 > P.S., there is no need to flood my mailbox the way you did last time I 
 > suggested being more civil on the HBD, you are on my killfile. 
 
 This is an outright lie!  I have never, ever flooded anyone's 
 mailbox.  You should be ashamed of yourself. 
 
Al. 
 
Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL 
korz at xnet.com 

Return to table of contents


From: Matt Hughes <mhughes at qualcomm.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 12:34:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Whole hops, siphoning, and beer loss

I've been reading the HB digest as it appears in rec.crafts.brewing for 
quite a while, and finally subscribed personally now that I have a 
question. 
 
I tried using whole hops for the first time in an IPA yesterday, and 
really liked them - they seemed much more aromatic than the pellets, and 
besides, it was fun to watch them unfold and churn in the boil! I ended up 
using about 5 ounces of whole hops (plus 2 ounces pellets), and everything 
went wonderfully until the end of the wort chilling. Then I went to siphon 
off the beer into my fermentor ... disaster! I gave the beer a good whirl 
and let everything settle out, then started siphoning. I got about 3.5 
gallons of beer, and that was the end! There was a MASSIVE layer of hops, 
hot break, etc probably 3 inches deep in the bottom of my brew kettle! I 
estimate that there was at LEAST a gallon of liquid still in the bottom, 
probably 1.5 gallons. I was totally unable to retrieve it ... I also 
hit my target gravity right on, so I didn't want to dilute with water or 
something, so this is going to be a skimpy batch! 
 
It pains me to waste that much good beer! My question, then, is whether 
there is a reasonable way to retrieve as much beer as possible from the 
stuff at the bottom of the kettle. The whole hops made a huge difference 
in how much beer I wasted ... 
 
Thanks for any ideas! 
       Matt Hughes 
         mhughes at qualcomm.com 
 

Return to table of contents


From: eric fouch <S=eric_fouch%S=fouch%G=eric%DDA=ID=STC021+pefouch%Steelcase-Inc at mcimail.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 96 14:39 EST
Subject: Aswers and responses I just made

 
Date: Monday, 21 October 1996 3:35pm ET 
To: stc012.honly at stc010.snads 
From: Eric.Fouch at STC001 
Subject: Aswers and responses I just made up. 
In-Reply-To: The letter of Monday, 21 October 1996 10:55am ET 
 
Rick Says: 
 
see what the ONLY approved transfer containers for items like nitric and 
flouric acid. Poly. Oh yes... If you drop a poly container of flouric 
acid on the floor, what happens? It bounces. Drop a glass beaker... Hit 
the decontam shower and call the HAZMAT hotline. To conclude, I have for 
 
I hope your not really carrying around HF in glass beakers.  HF attacks glass. 
 
(Was that too nit-picky?  Sorry, just trying to impress the non-chemists) 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
The other Rick wants to know about his hop rhizomes: 
 
Should I: 
 A. plant them in small pots until they start to shoot in spring 
 B. leave them in the fridge and plant them in the spring 
 C. give up all hope and purchase fresh rhizomes in the spring 
 
B.) Your rhizomes are dormant (nothing personnel). 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Jorge wonders: 
 
 
couple of question though. Is there any chance to have an 
infection with C. botulinum? I am concerned about the possibility that 
people who drink my beer could get botulismn. What should I do to 
minimize the chance to get an infection from this microbe or any other in 
 
No chance.  No (known) pathogens can grow in beer.  People who drink 
your beer may get alcohol poisoning, but thats only if it's really *good* 
beer (and they drink too much). 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
To add to Scotts list of acronyms, 
 
 
RO=???something with water 
 
Contrary to popular belief, RO does not mean Retarded Oviparian, like our 
Aussie friends' resident Platypi, but Reverse Osmosis, a method of extracting 
fresh water from salt water. 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack laments: 
 
 
Again, you are trying to pound a nail with a screwdriver. 
 
So what's the problem here?  I've found this to work quite well, actually. 
(You should see my homemade bookshelf/bar). 
 
 
E-man 
Chief Misinformation Administer 
Bent Dick Yactobrewery 
Behind the Water Pipes, 
Kentwood MI 
 
 

Return to table of contents


From: "Genito, Michael A." <mgenito at ci.rye.ny.us>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 16:04:16 -0400
Subject: RE: Guiness HBD2240

In HBD 2240, John Penn says: 
 
"I finally had Guiness Stout on draft at Rose & Crown Pub in Lewes, 
Delaware and I'm glad I did...hope someone else had a similar 
experience with their first Guiness Stout draft and can relate" 
 
Just a datapoint: I used to bartend in an Irish Pub that served Guiness 
on tap, and over the years, a few changes were made to some of the bars 
serving this fine beverage, all for the sake of simplicity. Guiness used 
to be served on tap, using special taps that were adjustable and charged 
with N2. The changes started when some bars removed the N2 tanks and 
used CO2 instead. The effect was a less creamy, less dense head. More 
recently, about a year ago, the distributors began replacing the 
original taps with otherwise standard taps. The original taps allowed a 
properly trained bartender to pour a "perfect Guiness", at the right 
rate of flow to allow the stout to settle out nicely and be served as a 
black liquid with a near-white head. These taps had to be taken apart 
periodically and cleaned, including a miniature screen inside. Too many 
poorly trained bartenders never cleaned these units, they got clogged, 
or worse, poured a lousy stout. Hence, the simple solution - make the 
taps idiotproof, which also results in Guiness gushing from the tap and 
taking a longer time to settle. The pour was not as appealing, and in 
some cases, even tastes different. 
 
Find a pub using nitrogen and original taps, and enjoy! 
 

Return to table of contents


From: Dave Riedel <RIEDEL at ios.bc.ca>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 13:43:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: All-grain setup comments requested

I am in the process of assembling an all-grain setup using a pair of 50L and 
one 30L SS keg.  I would've preferred the 10-gallon GOTT approach, but I 
already had the kegs so I thought I'd save my money and use them.  My basic 
goal is to have a user-friendly all-grain system without getting into the 
complications and cost of 3-tiered or RIMS system.  I would GREATLY appreciate 
the collective's comments on my plan. 
 
1.  Hot liquor tank: 30L keg with lid and ball-valve spigot 
   Should I insulate this or use the burner as needed? 
 
2.  Mash tun:  50L keg with lid, ball-valve spigot 
   'Spray-foam' insulation in slide on jacket-style 
   Copper lautering manifold in a ring shape of about 
      8" diameter at center of keg depression. 
 
 I'm hoping that this will allow me to stir the mash and avoid grain 
 scorching (if step mashing or raising to mash-out by direct heat) w/o 
 having to resort to an expensive false-bottom.  I think the wort will 
 drain sufficiently since the manifold sits at the center, but will it 
 be too slow or clog-prone due to its small size? 
 
3.  Kettle:  50L keg with lid, ball-valve spigot 
   Copper ring manifold 10-12" diameter near edge of keg 
    
 In this vessel, I'm hoping that immersion chilling and whirlpooling 
   should concentrate the break material and hops (pellets or whole) 
 inside the ring allowing me to run the wort out through the spigot. 
 
Specific questions: 
 
A.  Will this setup work consistently or is it prone to difficulties? 
B.  Would it be better to simply use infusion steps, thus avoiding direct heat 
    and therefore allowing a lautering manifold with greater coverage? 
C.  Are pellet hops likely to clog up *any* manifold/strain system?  Should I 
    simply go to whole hops and a manifold with greater coverage? 
 
I will be truly grateful to any and all who can assist me with this.  I'm 
dying to get this setup completed so that I can have it ready to go by the 
beginning of December.  Thanks in advance,  (private replies welcome) 
 
Dave Riedel, Victoria, BC, Canada 

Return to table of contents


From: smurman at best.com
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 13:56:23 -0700
Subject: Double Decoction Mash

 
I did my first double decoction mash this weekend, and I'm still not 
clear on some points.  I understand there's some leeway in 
temperatures, volumes, and times, and that I will develop my own 
"style", but I want to make sure I understand what each stage is 
trying to accomplish. 
 
I strike in a 122F, rest, then take a first decoction and heat to 
154F, rest here, and then boil the decoction.  I added this back to 
the main mash aiming for a temp of 150F, and then rested.  The second 
decoction was then pulled, boiled, and returned to reach 167F. 
 
The second rest stage after adding back the first decoction is the 
source of most of my confusion.  I assume that this is a 
saccarification(sp?) rest.  I was aiming for 150F based on the double 
decoction schedule from Noonan's book New Brewing Lager Beer.  I've 
seen many other temps given here, and that's understandable.  Why does 
Noonan suggest 150F?  This seems a little low to me for a complete 
conversion of alpha-amylase.  Should you rest at this temp until the 
iodine sugar conversion test comes out positive?  I'm refering to 
resting before pulling your second decoction, i.e. should you pull 
your second decoction even if the iodine test is negative?  Is there a 
disadvantage to resting at a more typical infusion mash temp of say 
156-158F? 
 
On a related note, are there any estimates for the amount of color 
added to the mash from the decoction process.  I'm assuming most of 
the color imparted to the mash comes from boiling the first decoction. 
Can it be naively assumed that the longer this is boiled, the more 
color will be added?  I'd also assume that more of a toasty flavor 
will be added the longer the first decoction boil. 
 
I've probably got a bunch more questions, but this is already getting 
long, so I think I'll wait to see how much discussion this generates. 
 
SM 

Return to table of contents


From: Hugh Petersen <PETERSEN at persoft.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 16:08:05 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Tannins in beer 

Extract Brewing with Specialty Grains and Tannins 
 
Hello one and all, I have a quick question for anyone who can help me.  I am 
novice to intermediate (extract w/ specialty grains such as crystal malts, 
chocolate malts, and Black Patent) homebrewer.  Fairly often 
I get a sharp flavor in my beer. I am thinking, correctly I hope, that it is 
attributed to Tannin from the husks of the specialty grains I use.  In reading 
the recipes I have used I have been instructed to put the grains in a bag, 
bring to a boil and remove the grains, add extract, hops, etc. I have been told
by different brewers that if I remove at the point of boiling it will be OK 
others tell me it is too late and the boiling point is beyond the point where 
tannins are released 
 
At what temperature should I remove the grains (I have heard that 150 Degrees 
F), and
should I try to hold a certain temp. with the specialty grains for a certain 
time?  I have seen many contradictary opinions.   I always pay very close 
attention to sterilization so I don't think that is the problem. 
 
Thanks, this is a great forum. 

Return to table of contents


From: Jim Liddil <JLIDDIL at AZCC.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 14:05:09 -0700 (MST)
Subject: AHA Bashing

I think based on what is happening at the AHA now that that HBD be moved from 
the AOB server.  If the AHA has the attitude of getting rid of who ever does 
not serve their political agenda then I think there is no reason to use their 
server.  It is time for homebrewers to cut the cord from the AHA.  It is time 
for an alternative that does not just SAY they listen to the "members".  With 
this in mind an alternaitve server should be found for the HBD. 
 
Jim 

Return to table of contents


From: jltaylor at ix.netcom.com (John Taylor)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 22:16:47 GMT
Subject: Braggot

I just made my first braggot (1.5 lbs Pale LME & 1.5 lbs Honey per 
gallon) (one gallon).  I used a wine yeast (semi-dry), the question 
is, should it be still or not and corked or capped? 
- -------------------------------------------- 
John Taylor [JLTaylor at ix.netcom.com] 
Brew Stud pico-Brewery Austin, Texas <<Cofounder>> 
Specializing in hand crafted ales & meads 

Return to table of contents


From: David Conger <dconger at hal.hscribe.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 18:43:18 -0400
Subject: RE: Low Gravities

>Am I losing gravity by only boiling in 3 gallons?  Is my sugar getting 
>irretreivably lost in the trub? If I were to boil the full 5 gallons, my trub 
>would be lower in gravity, right? Thereby increasing the gravity of the wort? 
>Am I on the right track? 
 
I just recently read an article on the Brew Your Own web-page 
(http://byo.com) which claimed that a partial boil will result in lower than 
expected gravity. The reason, the article claimed, is that the dense wort 
sinks beneath the added water. The article claimed that a thorough mixing 
would occur during fermentation, but that a precise OG reading would be 
impossible. :( 
 
Perhaps one could take the gravity of the boiled wort then do some math to 
get the OG of the full five gallons. 
 
- -- David Conger 
   dconger at hscribe.com 
 

Return to table of contents


From: Ian Smith <rela!isrs at netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 17:53:44 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: EasyMasher (TM)

Does anyone know the approximate wire diameter and meshes per inch for 
the EasyMasher(TM). I am trying to make a "false bottom" and thought I'd 
start with the same mesh. 
 
Cheers 
Ian Smith 
 

Return to table of contents


From: Paul Mansour <pmansour at mansours.com.au>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 13:12:08 -0700
Subject: Love it!

A special thank you to the following for making reading the digest so 
enjoyable lately.  Keep it up - I need the laughs! 
 
"Smart-Ass at Korzonas.com" 
Erik Vanthilt 
Rob Moline 
Jethro Gump (?!) 
Andy Walsh 
and especially John ("The Coyote") Wyllie on those pesky Bergamots - I 
broke up severely with that one! 
 
 
Paul Mansour, 
Sydney, Australia 
EMAIL:  pmansour at mansours.com.au 
 

Return to table of contents


From: Rob Moline <brewer at kansas.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 01:44:42 -0500
Subject: Jethro On Plastic

From: Andy Walsh <awalsh at crl.com.au> 
>Subject: Re: Jethro on plastic 
 
>So Jethro, keep your redneck theories off the HBD, 
 
        At least I don't store my malt under nitrogen! 
Jethro 
 
Cheers! 
Rob Moline 
Little Apple Brewing Company 
Manhattan, Kansas 
 
"The more I know about beer, the more I realize I need to know more about 
beer!"
 

Return to table of contents


From: Dave Whitman <dwhitman at rohmhaas.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 08:37:29 -0700
Subject: O2 diffusion

In HBD#2240, Ed Steinkamp asks about permiability through plastic: 
 
> My question is why is the permeability of the plastic important? 
> How does the air get in when the pressure in the fermenter is 
> higher than that of the ambient air? 
 
I hesitate to jump into the middle of our (recurring) glass vs. plastic 
debate, but this question illustrates a chemical principle that I think 
is not generally understood. 
 
The pressure of CO2 is irrelevent to the rate of diffusion of O2 into 
the fermenter.  The driving force for diffusion of O2 is to get equal 
concentrations of O2 on both sides of the fermenter wall.  Total 
pressure in the fermenter doesn't matter, what's important is the O2 
concentration inside. 

Return to table of contents


From: Joe Rolfe <onbc at shore.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 09:23:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: the plastic debate.....

 i will say one thing then you all decide on how good plastic is/isnot.. 
 
if plastic were good for brewing, then why is it in a commercial brewery 
you never see them as fermenters and lager tanks????? 
 
now you tell me how good plastic is? 
 
joe 

Return to table of contents


From: FelixTKatt at gnn.com (Mark Andrizzi)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 09:38:16
Subject: Yeast

Hi All, 
 
One week ago I posted asking for recipes for hard cider.  I 
appreciate all of your help.  Now I have a new question for the 
collective brain trust that lurks on this channel. 
 
When I made the hard cider, I wanted a less dry cider than can be 
achieved using Champagne Yeast, so I used a recipe that I got off 
of the Cat's Meow that called for 3 pounds each of brown sugar and 
honey.  Further, I used Wyeast 1056 ale yeast for fermentation.  I 
used this yeast as it is clean and will not add a yeasty flavor ( 
to add to the thread that was going a week ago as to the reason to 
use a bland yeast such as 1056) to the cider.  Now my question: If 
I capture and reuse some of the trub from this cider brew, will I 
get off tastes in a beer recipe.  It was a first batch use of this 
yeast and I used starters to increase its size.  I just hate to 
waste all that good, first time yeast population, but I don't want 
to get weird taste due to it being used in a apple cider.  Does the 
yeast pick up the apple flavor?  Will it impart off flavors?  Any 
enlightenment that anyone would have on this would be appreciated. 
 
 
TIA and private E-Mail is great.  I, like others, am tired of 
seeing a huge number of digests coming with little more than people 
saying the same things over and over ("Like the forty other people 
that answered that Question, I just wanted to say that I, too, 
do....").  If you don't have something new to impart, keep it to 
yourself or private e-mail.  Few have time to read the 2 digests a 
day of repetitive posts.  Less time on the digest means more time 
for brewing and enjoying homebrew. 
 
Thanks, 
 
Mark Andrizzi 
Brewmaster of homebrewed "Monkey Butt Beer" tm 
Brew Well and Brew Often 
 

Return to table of contents


From: John.E.Carsten at oklaosf.state.ok.us
Date: 22 Oct 96 10:09:05 -0500
Subject: RE: Chlorine, water and taste

Marshall asks about the effect of chlorine on taste and methods for its 
removal:
 
I don't know about the concentration of chlorine in your water (Australia, you 
said?), but where I reside, Oklahoma, USA ... our water supply has 3 ppm of 
chlorine present.  I have been told that chlorine is detectable by the human 
palate at concentrations as low as 1 ppm.  As our chlorine is "ammonia bonded" 
in the water, I've also been told that simple boiling will not remove it. 
Therefore, I don't think your idea about leaving the water in the sun for a few
days will work either.  I believe the process for putting chlorine into water 
is different than simply dumping chlorine granules in a pool. 
 
My method for getting around this is simple, though. I simply went to my local 
hardware store, and for about $15 (US), bought an on-sink water filter.  This 
device (which is made by a number of different companies) charcoal filters the 
water, removing most undesirables, leaving behind water that is pure enough for
my palate anyway.  The filters are good for 3-months of heavy use, and cost 
about $7 to replace. 
 
By the way, they also provide excellent water for coffee and drinking. 
 
John Carsten 

Return to table of contents


From: Steve <JOHNSONS at UANSV5.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 11:28:07 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: 2 Yeast Types

I brewed up an all-grain IPA this weekend and decided to pitch a stepped up 
packet of Wyeast 1968, Special London yeast.  From what I've read on the 
Wyeast faq sheets, this yeast can sometimes require a bit of a nudge in terms 
of needing some more oxygen or rousting up to help it finish out.  I am not 
using any sort of air stones or other aeration devices, so was wondering if 
one solution might be to add some other variety of yeast, say Wyeast 1056, when
I rack to a secondary fermenter, and let they two of them fight it out over the
last bit of fermentable sugars to bring my gravity down from its OG of 1.062. 
Anyone had any experience with using 2 types of yeast in the same brew?  I 
think I've seen some posts in the past year regarding this with some barley 
wines...Thanks.  Private e-mail is fine. 
 
Steve Johnson 
Music City Brewers 
Nashville, TN 

Return to table of contents


From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 96 09:43 PDT
Subject: Bashing the big guys and Dateline

Joe Rolfe writes (in hbd 2231): 
<snip> 
i can not and will not bash any brewer/brewery - we are all in the same boat 
although the boat may be springing a leak due to the amount of people 
in the boat. 
<snip> 
 
I didn't see the dateline show but I sure am tired of reading about it. We 
all pretty much have the same opinion on this. Except the quote above from 
Joe. We really are all in the same "business". Why don't we quit bashing the 
big guys and start telling our friends why homebrew and micro-brews are 
better, and convincing them to try some. Up until a year ago, I was a silver 
bullet guy. It was great stuff when out on the lake in 110F on a water 
skiing vacation. 
 
The negative stuff is getting boring and tiresome, and wasting a lot of 
valuable bandwidth. 
 
My $.02. 
 
Charley 
- --------------------------------------------------------------- 
Charles Burns, Director, Information Systems 
Elk Grove Unified School District 
cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us, http://www.egusd.k12.ca.us 
916-686-7710 (voice), 916-686-4451 (fax) 
http://www.el-dorado.ca.us/~cburns/ 
 

Return to table of contents


From: Imakebeer at aol.com
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 12:55:08 -0400
Subject: RE:Sabco Mashtun

I bought my Sabco Mash/Lauter tun about 6 months ago and frankly,  I am 
disappointed. I've brewed eight 10 gallon batches with it and have 
encountered numerous problems. 
 
1) The thermometer is physically too high in the grain bed to provide an 
accurate reading. With 22 quarts of  mash water the thermometer is only about 
one inch below the surface of the water. After adding the grain it is still 
only 3-4 inches under the grain bed. I couldn't see using it on a 5 gallon 
batch. 
 
2) The false bottom rests on the edge of where the rounded bottom of the keg 
meets the straight side. Neither the keg nor the false bottom are perfectly 
round and there are gaps that let grain through. I've recirculated GALLONS of 
runnings and still have had grain coming through. Not only that, every one in 
a while during the sparge, a big burst of grain will come through. I've 
placed a hose clamp on the out tube that runs through the center of the false 
bottom. I push down on the center of the false bottom, then tighten the 
clamp, which helps push the edges of the false bottom against the edge where 
it is supposed to rest. I've resorted to placing a grain bag on the end of my 
hose that goes to my brew pot and catching any stray pieces of grain in it. 
 
3) The damn thing is heavy! Once you consider what the tun (16#), water 
(40+#) and the grain (18+#) weigh, the fact that you heat it up to acheive a 
mash temp of 150 deg, then if you have to lift it (which you probably will so 
you can sparge into you brew pot), it can make brewing on your own difficult 
if not dangerous. I've attached a come-a-long to the rafters in my garage so 
I can lift mine. 
 
I feel that it would be an excellent piece of equipment if used in their/a 
RIMS system. As for non RIMS use, it is my opinion that it could definatley 
use some improvements. 
 
Robert Hops 
imakebeer at aol.com 

Return to table of contents


From: "Chris Nardo" <CNAR at imnr.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 10:05:45 GMT +700
Subject: A-B Thread

Fellow HBDers: 
 
After being a lurker for many years please let me say thank you for 
your advice, information and entertainment. 
 
With regard to the recent thread about A-B, truth in labelling, and 
the possiblity of them brewing craft beer or at least "better" beer, 
let me add the following brief report. 
 
A-B purchased Sea World several years back and subsequently opened a 
beer garden (at least here in San Diego) at the park.  In a recent 
trip, we were offered 2 oz. tasters of the new line of A-B craft 
beer.  There is a hefe-weizien (no clove, no thick white head, tastes 
like Bud Light, and completely clear!), an "Amber Bock" , and a 
"Celebration Ale".  I asked the bartender, " What kind of ale is the 
Celebration Ale?"  She said, "Its a dark lager."  "The celebration ale 
is a lager?"   "That's right."  Thankfully  I only had to drink 2 oz. 
and didn't have to pay for it. 
 
Well, last night at the local supermarket I discovered six-packs of these 
brews (and they were cheaper than Bud), so I picked up some Michelob 
Amber Bock ($2.97).  I was willing to give it another try after the latest 
HBD posts.  The label read "brewed with only dark malted barley, 
rice, water, hops , and yeast."   The inclusion of rice in the 
ingredient list disturbed me but I tried it anyway.  It simply tasted 
like "Bud Dark".  I went into the next room had my wife close her 
eyes and taste it.  She said, "Tastes exactly like Budweiser.  What 
is it?  Nice label though."  'Nuff said. 
 
We expect as much from A-B, but in light of their recent posturing 
about truth in labelling I did not expect to see on the Amber Bock  label, 
"Crafted by the Master Brewers at the Anheuser-Busch Company, St. 
Louis, MO".   No litany of breweries dotted around the backside of the 
label.  Isn't this what A-B was on about BBC just a week ago on 
Dateline?  I seriously doubt that this beer was brewed and bottled in 
St Louis and trucked to San Diego for my consumption.  More likely it 
was brewed in A-B's So. Cal. plant in Van Nuys, CA or at the very 
least the No. Cal. Fairfield plant.  You see A-B is not concerned 
with freshness or truth (whatever that is) or even beer.  Its about 
money. 
 
- - Chris 
 
- ---------------------------------------------------------- 
Christopher J. Nardo, Ph.D. 
The Immune Response Corporation 
Carlsbad, CA 
 
"He made for the cellar-door, and presently reappeared, 
somewhat dusty, with a bottle of beer in each paw and 
another under each arm, 'Self-indulgent beggar you seem 
to be, Mole,' he observed. 'Deny yourself nothing.' 
 
- - K. Grahame, "The Wind in the Willows' 

Return to table of contents


From: Michael Gerholdt <gerholdt at ait.fredonia.edu>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 96 13:26:31 -0500
Subject: Sorghum Beer: The Ongoing Saga

- -- [ From: Michael Gerholdt * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- 
 
After I got home from the hombrew meeting, I put the fermenter with the 
still active sorghum beer in the hallway. It continues to work, slowly. I 
continue to wonder what I'm going to do with it. 
 
Last night my brother-in-law accepted my offer of a taste, despite all 
warnings. I joined him. The beer has changed; it is lighter in body and more 
palatable. Still smells very bad, but doesn't taste nearly as bad as it 
smells. 
 
Still doesn't taste exactly *good* either. 
 
But I think now I'll filter it out, bottle and refrigerate it, with 
intentions of drinking it up. Maybe. 
 
One thing I noticed ... after only a couple sips, I could feel the fusel 
alcohols knocking on the brain cells ... very lowgrade headache was fairly 
immediate. I drank about 12 oz of the stuff. The headache didn't get very 
bad; it was just there. 
 
In clear beers, if fusel alcohols are present, they might dissapate over 
time, right? This beer is supposed to be drunk quite young, so aging isn't a 
normal practice. Any thoughts as to why there are fusel alcohols present? 
Those of you who drink this stuff regularly or on occasion, is the headache 
normally part of the experience? Besides drinking enough of it that you 
don't mind the headache, is there some way (other than dumping) to eliminate 
it? 
 
************************************ 
 
Isn't there still someone out there who is also making sorghum beer? I've 
seen one other report besides mine, and I thought there were three ........ 
- -- 
 

Return to table of contents


From: Ken Sullivan <kj at nts.gssc.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 11:34:40 -0600
Subject: RE: Pumpkin Ale (Neck pumpkins)????

Okay, I don't know what a 'neck pumpkin' is.  In the recipe for 
Liquid Pumpkin Pie  Darrin suggests using 'cooking (neck) pupmkins' 
So what is a 'neck pumpkin'??  THe only ones I'm familiar with are 
the big orange things kids smash on halloween! 
 
Any pointers?? 
 
Thnx, 
KJ ( looking forward to my first Liquid Pumpkin Pie :-) 

Return to table of contents


From: "Taber, Bruce" <Bruce.Taber at nrc.ca>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 13:54:00 -0400
Subject: copper and brass in beer

Dear Brewbrothers, 
(I mean this in the generic, non-sexist form) 
 
 My keg system uses copper tubing and brass fittings in which beer will 
sit for extended periods of time.  I know there is no problems with 
making beer in copper, but what about storing beer in contact with 
copper and brass?  Any potential dangers or off-flavors?  IMBR? 
 
 Yours in beer, 
        (I wish) 
  Bruce Taber 
  bruce.taber at nrc.ca 

Return to table of contents