---

   FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
        Mike Donald, Digest Janitor-in-training
        Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!

Contents:
  2 cents on Glass vs. Plastic (Hugh Petersen)
  re:Quick Fermenter, Mash Temps ((Charles Burns))
  Killer Chiller Question ((Charles Burns))
  RE: 15 gall keg hole cutting (Philip DiFalco)
  Re: Yeast Pitching (Derek Lyons)
  HBD and AOB (Alex Santic)
  Keg Hole Cutting (mikehu at lmc.com)
  The ultimate-scalable brewery 8-} (Ken Sullivan)
  RE: When to rack to secondary / Trub removal ((George De Piro))
  Crass Commercial (Re:Sabco) (Jack Schmidling)
  protein and mash pH (kcollins at seidata.com)
  The AHA.... (Jim Cave)
  Sanitizing Corks? ("KEVIN FONS Q/T MFG X7814 )
  Glass vs. Plastic vs. Stainless (G.J.Fix at utamat.uta.edu)
  submission ((Richard or David LaCivita))
  Need another Bru-Heat (Bob Bessette/PicTel)
  HBD + AHA = BFD.... (Carl Hattenburg)
  RE: PLASTIC, OK OK (Joe Rolfe)
  Racking time (Jorge Blasig - IQ)
  re: Yeast Pitching (Dave Whitman)
  Cutting a hole in a 15 gal keg (Andrew Quinzani)
  Plastic in commerical operations ("Houseman, David L TR")
  New e-mail Address (martyt at sky.net)
  [none] (Marty Tippin)
  Welsh Ale (MOORE NATHAN TODD)

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Hugh Petersen <PETERSEN at persoft.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 11:10:21 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: 2 cents on Glass vs. Plastic

Catch Phrase: 
Hey a new beer Battle Cry: 
 
With the introduction of Lite beer from Miller, way back when, we were force 
fed the oppositional Catch Phrase: 
 
Tastes Great!!... Less filling!!...Tastes Great!!...less filling!!... 
 
Well now with the huge surges in homebrewing and the great glass vs. plastic 
debate perhaps a new battle cry be introduced.  Since the majority of us would 
probably be tortured with a red hot poker than drink Lite (light) beer I 
propose we divide into two teams and get a 
new '90's chant going... 
 
Glass Carboy!!...Plastic Bucket!!...Glass Carboy!!... Plastic Bucket!!... 
 
Doing this will save huge ammounts of bandwith on a discussion that seemingly 
is going to go on forever, because it seems no definitive answer is close at 
hand and everyone is of their own opinion. 
 
Thanks to those who helped me on the Tannin issue. 
 
Hugh P 

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From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 96 09:06 PDT
Subject: re:Quick Fermenter, Mash Temps

Barry Vanhoff writes: 
 
<snip>I had to get rid of heat!  The mash was a little 
hotter than I would have liked (.75 qts/lb  at  190F water) at about 
165ish degrees after 15 minutes.<snip>I was psyched to see how fast 
fermentation began when pitching a larger volume of yeast.  However, after 
about 12 hours, 
it has stopped.  It looks done.<snip> 
 
I think you're lucky that you had any fermentables left at all with 165F 
mash. My guess is that its done too. Take the gravity readings to make sure, 
but since you mashed at such a high temp, its probable that you had very 
little fermentable sugars and the yeast has finished them off quickly. 
 
I find that I will lose from 12-15 degrees (F) from the strike water 
temperatur to the mash temp. With a 11-13 pound grain bill I will always use 
1 qt of water to each pound of grain. This gives a nice thick mash which can 
be either heated with boiling water or cooled with tap water to adjust the 
temperature. I also pre-heat the mashtun (ice chest) with water heated to 
the mash temp to start off with. 
 
I'm very curious as to how the beer tastes when you get to that point. I'm 
working on some experiments myself with high mash temperatures. Please let 
us know what the results are and what ingredients you used (if you have the 
time and inclination). 
 
Good luck. 
 
Charley 
 

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From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 96 09:23 PDT
Subject: Killer Chiller Question

Ken Schwartz writes: 
 
<snip> Four flat spirals then should be better than one since the cooler 
wort "falling" from each coil is *further* cooled by the one below it...<snip> 
 
Does this mean that we could get more efficient cooling by making sure that 
the chiller "water input" side is the "bottom" of the coil and the exhaust 
comes out the top? I never thought about this before but, if the cool water 
entered the chiller at the top, absorbed heat as it goes lower, by the time 
it gets to the bottom, it could be as hot as or hotter than the wort at the 
bottom of the kettle. On the other hand if it starts at the bottom and 
rises, it will come in contact with wort that is hotter and hotter the 
higher it gets, resulting in more heat transfer to the water. 
 
I've got to go home and see if I put the hose adapters on the chiller 
correctly. Or am I way off base here? 
 
Charley 
 

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From: Philip DiFalco <sxupjd at fnma.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 96 09:46:27 -0400
Subject: RE: 15 gall keg hole cutting

 
> Does anyone out there have any ideas on cutting a 10" diameter hole in 
> the top of a 15.5 gallon stainless steel keg ? I have tried drilling, 
> grinding , sawing and swearing at it - nothing works ! Any suggestions? 
 
  I've done it two ways. 
 
The FIRST way, which sucked (cause it made a nasty, rough-edged hole), was to  
  take my keg to the Midas shop during lunch time and ask one of the muffler 
  guys to torch me a hole (along the circle that I had etched on the keg top). 
  It took the guy about 10 minutes to do it. The result was real ugly looking 
(like I said, a nasty, rough-edged hole). I tried filing it smooth, but after  
about 5 minutes, I realized that would never work - and, every time I put the  
  file to the keg, the loud obnoxious ring produced by the file to SS-drum was 
  unbearable - with my neigbors peering over their fences, wondering if the 
  next Ted Kazynski had taken root in their community. 
 
  The SECOND way, using the above torched keg, I pencil etched a slightly 
  larger hole, beyond the current hole. I then went to the ACE hardware store, 
  and rented a "saws-all", and bought a couple of blades (I forget the rate, 
  but I got it an hourly rate, opposed to a daily rate - it was reasonable - 
  the blades and rental were under/around $15). 
 
  Using the saws-all was a new experience for me (as was cutting through SS), 
  regardless, using the saws-all to cut a hole through the SS keg went pretty 
  smoothly, it took less than 10 minutes. 
  It seemed that the less pressure I applied to the saws-all as it progressed 
  through the SS, the smoother and faster the cutting went (as well as the 
  blade lasted longer - it took two blades to cut a keg hole). 
If you DON'T already have an entry point into the keg, drill a hole along the  
  circle you've etched on its top (as a template for such a circle, you might 
want to use the top to a pot that is of the diameter of thesize hole you want  
  - you might also want to use this pot-top, for your keg, during brewing). 
  Stick the saws-all's blade in that drilled hole, and you're on your way. 
  After you've sawed your hole, use a file to smooth the hole's edge. 
 
  The ringing in your ears should completely go away after a day or two 
  (if it doesn't, get used to it....) 
 

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From: Derek Lyons <elde at hurricane.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 08:19:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Yeast Pitching

At 09:55 PM 10/22/96 -0600, you wrote: 
> 
> Well, to get to the point, I stepped up some liquid yeast, and got a 
>nice ferment going on some extract. I then pitched the *malt* part of 
>it, *not* the stuff on the bottom, thinking the active yeasties would be 
>swimming around in the malt, with bone-tired yeasties resting on the 
>bottom. But, I was glancing thru Dave Miller's brewing book tonight, and 
>he mentions that you *dump* the "malt" stuff, and pitch the "trub". My 
>stuff started just fine (within a few hours) ....so what should you 
>pitch... the malt(liquid stuff) or the trub(junk cluttering up the 
>bottom)? Where are the most prepared and psyched-up yeasties? 
> 
 
I always pitch *both*.  (There has been some speculation on the HBD before 
that the 'trub' portion may contain early flocculating beasties..... 
Undesirable according to some.) 
 

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From: Alex Santic <alex at salley.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 12:53:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: HBD and AOB

The best thing to do if you don't like the AOB is to leave them with the 
digest. Lemme see...no editorial control, no advertising revenue, just 
labor and resources. Hmmm, what a privilege. 
 
The only perennial problem around here (as with all mailing lists) is 
signal-to-noise ratio, not who happens to host the list. Certain people 
who put a lot of time and effort into posting meaningful content seem to 
be favorite flame targets, yet I don't see many complaints about people 
using the list for grandiose political posturing over petty matters, 
casual banter, stand-up comedy, beating dead horses. 
 
As for Papazian and international pubcrawling, gee sounds like a smart 
man. What a great country. But seriously...that's a classic cheap shot. 
Very easy to say stuff like that, but who gives a shit. Let's talk about 
brewing, please. I'd rather hear George DePiro's advice on decoction 
mashing. 
 
Alex Santic 
NYC 
 

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From: mikehu at lmc.com
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 96 10:38:35 PDT
Subject: Keg Hole Cutting

Ian Smith Asks: 
 
> Does anyone out there have any ideas on cutting a 10" diameter hole in 
> the top of a 15.5 gallon stainless steel keg ? I have tried drilling, 
> grinding , sawing and swearing at it - nothing works ! Any suggestions ? 
 
Ian - I brew exclusively in these things, and have some experience with 
modifying them. (I have modified and use six of them) Anyway, The first 
ones I modified I did so by drilling a series of holes spaced about 1" 
apart around the circumference of the top, where I wanted to cut it. I 
then used a "sawzall" to cut between the holes. It was not easy, but it 
can be done. I went through 2 bits and 4-5 saw blades for each keg. I then 
started taking them to a friend of mine who works at a stainless/aluminum 
cutting yard. They have a plasma jet there that not only would cut the top 
out, but also cut a small hole near the bottom for a drain valve. Much 
quicker, easier and safer. It only cost me a gallon of beer. I've noticed 
that metal workers can be extremely interested in brewing equipment, so 
if you tell them what you are doing, chances are they will be glad to help. 
 
On a related note, I've been thinking about modifying my kegs, adding a 
copper pipe manifold to the bottom of my boil kettle, eliminating the 
need to use those nasty hop bags once and for all. My problem is that the 
coupler welded to the bottom, where the ball valve attaches, is only threaded 
one way. In other words, I can't screw anything into the coupler from the 
inside of the keg. What I have been considering is plugging the rather large 
opening (1.5") with some kind of rubber stopper, drilled in the middle to 
accept the copper tubing. Has anyone out there done this? Is there a rubber 
stopper made that will withstand the heat? Is this a bad idea, or a beer 
inspired stroke of genius? 
Mike H. 
Portland, Or 
"Life Is Short, Grain Is Cheap - Just Brew It!" 

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From: Ken Sullivan <kj at nts.gssc.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 12:04:14 -0600
Subject: The ultimate-scalable brewery 8-}

Okay, 
I've been reading all the discussion of the plastic verses 
SS/Copper/Brick/Concrete fermenters.  I have to interject 
my $.02, I have talked to the brewers at the Boston Beer 
Company, I have talked to Dave Miller, I have talked to myself! 
 
In researching how to 'shoestring' a pico/nano/micro brewery, 
I checked into plastic closed-head barrels.  I now own 6 each 
blue plastic 15 gallon closed head barrels and 6 each white 
plastic closed head 55 gallon barrels.  To bypass the issue of 
cleaning/scratching the barrels, I am using Food Grade plastic 
liners.  I merely stuff the liner into the 2" opening, rack the 
wort into it, pitch the yeast, and cram a #12 rubber stopper 
with airlock into the opening, sealing the liner against the 
opening walls.  This eliminates the cleanliness fear, eliminates 
the plastic-taste fear (using FDA approved liners), eliminates teh 
oxygen permeation (two barriers to get through now). 
 
I found that many Homebrew shops receive their malt extract from 
Breiss in these blue 15 Gallon drums and they will sell the empty 
drum pretty cheap! I also found that supermarkets often buy milk 
and OJ in bulk. They use the same equipment in their processing 
line to package the OJ & the milk so they get 55 gallon plastic 
drums full of sanitizer to flush the lines between runs. You can 
also get these really cheap!! And they usually have a small amount 
of sanitizer in the bottom, so they come to you already clean!! 
 
A #12 stopper fits the standard 2" hole of a closed head drum. 
A #5.5 stopper fits the 3/4" hole of a closed head drum. 
 
U.S. Plastics and Consolidated Plastics both sell plastic drums/ 
containers up to 3000 gallons. FDA approved!! They sell liners too. 
They sell mixers, just about everything. 
 
It's time to ditch the paranoia about plastics, pick the right 
kind of plastic, use a disposable liner for each batch, and 
SCALE UP!!!! 
 
Sincerely brewing my brains out 8-} 
KJ 

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From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 14:06:33 -0700
Subject: RE: When to rack to secondary / Trub removal

     Hi all! 
 
     Derek asks about when he should rack to the secondary.  The July '96 
     issue of "Brewing Techniques" had a nice article/experiment by Al 
     Korzonas addressing this very problem. 
 
     One school of thought says to not let the kraeusen fall back into the 
     beer, lest it be too harsh in palate. 
 
     Another school says that it should be left to fall back into the beer, 
     lest you risk infection (by skimming the foam off) and remove 
     necessary heading proteins. 
 
     Al's experiment demonstrated that it really doesn't matter. 
     Bitterness was higher in the batches that the kraeusen fell back into, 
     but no judges thought that it was harsh. 
 
     I don't think that Al addressed the "head retention" issue, though. 
     Any input, Al? 
 
     The moral is, rack it to the secondary either just after the kraeusen 
     starts to fall, or any point thereafter.  It would seem to maximize 
     bitterness if you let it fall back, which is good for certain styles. 
 
     It is important to not rack the beer off the yeast too soon during 
     primary, especially with yeasts that produce a lot of diacetyl.  You 
     must give them time to reduce the diacetyl before racking.  The same 
     is true if you remove the kraeusen by skimming it off and you use a 
     truly top-fermenting yeast: you'll be skimming off the yeast, too. 
     ---------------- 
     Derek also asks about trub removal.  He seems to chill the wort in the 
     boiler than rack it over to the fermenter.  He is upset because so 
     much break material gets siphoned over. 
 
     With the few details Derek gives, my guess is that he should whirlpool 
     the cool wort.  Let that settle 5 minutes.  All the trub will collect 
     in the middle of the kettle, where it is easily avoided during 
     siphoning. 
 
     A grain bag is too course to use as a trub sack (I've tried MANY 
     different materials for use as trub sacks).  I find that a sterilized, 
     white cotton T-shirt worked best, although it did clog a bit after a 
     few gallons (I use a counterflow chiller, so the cold break forms in 
     the chiller). 
 
     I only remove the cold break from lagers, and I aerate the heck out of 
     the wort to ensure adequate oxygen for the yeast (trub can be used by 
     the yeast like O2).  I don't find much use in removing cold break from 
     ales. 
 
     Have fun! 
 
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY) 

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From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 08:08:39 -0700
Subject: Crass Commercial (Re:Sabco)

From: Imakebeer at aol.com 
 
>I bought my Sabco Mash/Lauter tun about 6 months ago and frankly, I 
amdisappointed......
 
>2) The false bottom rests on the edge of where the rounded bottomof the keg 
meets the straight side. Neither the keg nor the false
bottom are perfectly round and there are gaps that let grain through. 
I've recirculated GALLONS of runnings and still have had grain coming 
through. Not only that.... 
 
At the risk of being crassly commercial, let me suggest a very simple 
solution.  We make (you can too) an EASYMASHER designed specificially 
for the Sabco kettle.  It consists of the stainless tubular strainer 
assembly with a 1/2" male threaded adapter that screws right into the 
Sabco female nipple.  You would find upon using it, that you didn't need 
the very expensive Sabco false bottom and all the plumbing in the first 
place but that is water over the dam. 
 
Just as an aside, my first EM (before it had a name) was intended only 
to keep the spigot clear of stuff that got around my laboriously made 
false bottom.  It didn't take long to discover that the false bottom 
was a useless redundancy and belongs in the museum of bad brewing 
ideas. 
 
 
js 
 
- -- 
Visit our WEB pages: 
Beer Stuff:  http://dezines.com/ at your.service/jsp/ 
Astronomy:   http://user.mc.net/arf/ 
 
 

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From: kcollins at seidata.com
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 13:51:29 -0500 (EST)
Subject: protein and mash pH

I have recently brewed a couple of all-grain batches that turned out very good,
but just a little watery. I am wondering about the pH at the protein rest (122)
stage. Mine is about 5.6, a little high. What alternatives do I have to lower  
this PH?  Could higher pH values cause a watery result??  BTW, I used a double 
decoction procedure.  Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks. 
 
Kevin 

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From: Jim Cave <CAVE at PSC.ORG>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 12:03:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: The AHA....

 Interesting!  This debate got going a couple of years ago on Judgenet. 
In my view, It's not the "ownership" of the HBD that is the issue.  The more 
important question is:  Just what is the AHA? 
 
 Most "Associations" which have a "Membership" allow said "membership" 
to have a voice--a vote.  Most Associations develop due to a need to create an 
effective force, which might include lobbying, education, policy, and so on. 
The role of the "Staff" is to "Administer" said Association. 
 
 I think Bill Giffen (surprize!) has neatly summarized the situation: 
It allow's Charlie P to Boondoggle-it around the world, at the same time 
drawing a salarly.  Is the AHA really the non-profit entity it claims to 
be?  I wonder! 
 
 Perhaps it's time to start up the "Independent Association of Home- 
brewers"  or the "International Association of Home Brewers."  Once done, 
we would have an organization that more truly represents the concepts of 
an Association.  Perhaps we could "Adopt" BT as our magazine! 
 
    Jim Cave 

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From: "KEVIN FONS Q/T MFG X7814 <KFONS at QTIWORLD.COM>" <KFONS at qtiworld.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 14:04:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Sanitizing Corks?

I am about to bottle my mead that has been fermenting for nearly a year.  I 
plan on bottling it in wine bottles and corking it.  How do, or do I sanitize 
the corks.  I plan on aging it until next year around Xmas.  Any other tips on 
corking and storage/aging? 
 
Kevin 
=========================================================================== 
Kevin Fons                     <kfons at qgraph.com>  or  <kfons at qtiworld.com> 
Industrial/Systems Engineer                         Quad/Tech International 
N64 W23110 Main Street                           Div. of Quad/Graphics Inc. 
Sussex, Wisconsin 53089 USA            "Worldwide Sales, Worldwide Support" 
Phone: (414)246-7814             FAX: (414)246-5160 
=========================================================================== 
Standard disclaimer applies... 
 

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From: G.J.Fix at utamat.uta.edu
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 96 14:17:36 -0500
Subject: Glass vs. Plastic vs. Stainless

I have come to the conclusion that when it is all said and done that 
stainless steel is the best material for fermenters. Having said 
this I should also say that I am constantly amazed by the diversity 
of materials that have been successfully used in both commercial 
and amateur brewing. 
 
The most striking case known to me is the old Frankenmuth Brewery 
in Michigan. This small 15K bbl/yr. operation went sailing through 
the four decades following WW2 at full capacity while other small 
breweries were disappearing at alarming rates. They made two beers, 
one a Munich Helles and the other a Dunkle. By today standards both 
would be judged as highly respectable. In the dark ages (i.e., 70s) they 
were unparalled gems. I remember well my first visit to this brewery. 
The initial impression was that of a very clean and well maintained 
operation. This all changed when we entered the fermentation area 
for what was before us was several very old cast iron open fermenters. 
I often wonder how many hundreds of "experts" told the Geyer Bros. 
(the owners at that time) that such equipment belonged in a museum 
and not an operating brewery. They always responded by saying that the 
fermenters were the secret behind their success. Who knows? The brewery 
was sold in the 80s, and the  cast iron fermenters were the first things 
to go. 
 
A similar situation exited at the other small brewery that survived 
the post war era, namely the tiny Straub Brewery in St. Marys, Pa. 
They also used open fermenters (brewers of that generation were 
generally unreconstructed open fermenter afficionados), except in 
this case they were glass lined vessels. Gilbert Straub, who was 
brewmaster there until the early 80s, always maintained that 
switching to glass was the single most important factor in his brewery's 
highly successful transversal of the post war era. During Gibby's 
tenure the beer coming from "good batches" was IMHO the finest being 
brewed in North America at that time. But there were inconsistencies, 
just about all of whom were traced to hairline cracks in the glass 
that appeared ever so often. I feel that a strong case can be made 
for glass being the ideal material for fermenters, however at least 
for a small commercial operation these vessels can be a form of living 
hell in so far as maintenance and sanitation is concerned. 
 
Finally, I find it difficult to accept the notion that plastic 
fermenters are intrinsically flawed. Several years ago (when 
HBD was a far more interesting and informative forum than it has 
become in recent times) Darryl Richman put forward a series of posts 
to HBD which outlined a well conceived program for using plastic 
fermenters. A commercial example is the Blind Pig Brewery  of 
Temecula, Ca., a small low budget micro using plastic fermenters. 
At this years GABF they took first in the ESB category, and their 
IPA took second place. I have been on the professional tasting 
panel at the GABF since 1987, and never have seen so many negative 
comments by a large cross-section of the judges as this year. This 
resulted in a record number of "no awards" being given. Such 
problems did not affect the most competitive categories, and 
in particular ESBs and IPAs. There were a number of world class 
entries in both, and only difficulties came in figuring which ones 
were best. Blind Pig's entries were stylistically impeccable, a fact 
that is not so surprising given that the brewer, Vinnie Culizaro, 
has had a distinguish record as a homebrewer before going Pro. Also 
notable about his beers is how clean and well made they were. Not bad 
for something fermented in plastic. 
 
I come away from this fray with the distinct impression that skilled 
brewers will always find ways to make good beer with just about any type 
equipment. Top quality brewing materials are also crucial, but after 
that we can apparently be rather flexible about just about everything else! 
 
Cheers. 
 
George Fix 
 
P.S. Another category in this years GABF which had a large number of 
distinguished entries was barley wines. Congratulation Mr. Moline. Your 
award winning beer took out some really great ones. 
 

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From: RLacivita at gnn.com (Richard or David LaCivita)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 15:26:41
Subject: submission

Hello friends, 
 
I'm new to the HBD, and I think its great, except... 
 
What is it with all this arguing?  HBD is a great place to ask 
advice, or give it.  If I need technical help, or a recipe, I will 
come here.  But getting through all the crap to find good 
questions, and their answers is becoming inceasingly hard. 
Perhapse HBD could be divided into 2 departments:1)Questions and 
answers, and 2)other stuff. 
 
Its probably to much work for the guy in charge, so lets leave the 
bickering to private email. 
 
Thanks, 
 
David LaCivita 
 
 

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From: Bob Bessette/PicTel
Date: 23 Oct 96 15:28:35 EDT
Subject: Need another Bru-Heat

Help fellow brewers, 
 I have been using a Bru-Heat (or a clone of one) for over a year and while 
brewing the other day the unit went on me. As a result I had to transfer my 
almost boiling wort to 4 separate pots on my stove and complete the boil that 
way. Now I have tried to get anohter Bru-Heat and my homebrew store doesn't 
even know what they are or how to get them. I live in NH and work in Mass. Is 
there anyone out there who can help me? I use the Bru-Heat to boil the full 
volume in my kitchen and I can't live without one for this part of my brewing 
process. I was hoping to brew again next weekend and I am not going through 
boiling on my stove again. Please send direct email to bbessett at pictel.com. I 
appreciate any help in this matter. 
 
Cheers, 
Bob Bessette 
bbessett at pictel.com 

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From: Carl Hattenburg <CHattenburg at Perstorp-us.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 15:35:56 -0400
Subject: HBD + AHA = BFD....

[Bill]>>HBD was much better before the advent of the AHA into our world. 
 
 
I don't get it. Does the AHA edit the HBD, or ban good posters from 
posting? 
 
- - Carlos, 
(w) 301.680.7276;    (fx) 301.236.0134;    (h) 301.942.3756 
(e) CHattenburg at Perstorp-us.com        (e) CHatten at Erols.com 
(www) http://theweeds.smxcorp.com/carlos/carlos.html 
 

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From: Joe Rolfe <onbc at shore.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 15:55:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: PLASTIC, OK OK

 yes - i have seen the light, all i will say is if YOU can brew great beer 
in plastic, then keep on doin' it.....if you can not move to stainless 
(kegs are good - just dont borrow for the deposit - pleez) 
 
i do have a meadery in the area that uses plastic fermenters of a 
reasonable size 10bbl, and i under stand from Robs post that Cottonwood 
uses drums....so yes you can brew good stuff in plastic.... 
 
the big issue is "how carefull the cleaning is", i have had many a 
homebrewer come in after brewing one or two good ones, with infected 
stuff asking me what is wrong.....i usually get the response - well 
i scrubbed the plastic bucket (fermenter) with a brillo pad or some such 
device.......if you can keep the bucket in "virgin" condition and dont 
even stick anything but beer in it, clean carefull you should have no 
trouble.... pierre rajotte ferments in the stuff, occasionally and he brews 
some really great stuff..... 
 
stainless is good, you cook the hell out of it, plastic is tough to cook. 
 
any way "if it aint broke dont fix it, but if it is you'd better fix it 
fast" 
 
 
good brewing 
joe 

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From: Jorge Blasig - IQ <gisalb at elmer.fing.edu.uy>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 17:01:31 -0300 (UY)
Subject: Racking time

 
Dear friends: 
 
I prepared my first batch of mead last saturday october 12. I boiled 7.5 
kg of honey and pasteurized 1 kg of strawberies and pitched the yeasts 
(Saccharomyces bayanus - champagne yeasts 14% alcohol tolerant) to make a 
25 L wort. It has been fermenting and bubbling since then though now is 
not bubbling as violent as in the first week. 
I wonder if it is time for racking to the secondary. Any suggestions? 
 
Thanks in advance. 
 
Jorge Blasig 
 
 

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From: Dave Whitman <dwhitman at rohmhaas.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 16:05:10 -0700
Subject: re: Yeast Pitching

In HBD#2243, Bill Graham asks: 
 
> ....so what should you 
> pitch... the malt(liquid stuff) or the trub(junk cluttering up the 
> bottom)? Where are the most prepared and psyched-up yeasties? 
 
I would sugggest "all of the above". 
 
I think you're right, the ones still in suspension are probably the most 
"psyched-up".  However, I also suspect that in terms of total number of 
cells they're in the minority, and those ones that have settled out 
aren't dead, just resting. 
 
I don't have any real science to back this up, but here's some 
annecdotal support:  I used to follow Miller's procedure of dumping off 
the supernatent beer in my starter, and just pitch the sediment.  This 
worked fine, but when I started pitching the entire starter (beer + 
sediment) I got shorter lag times. 

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From: Andrew Quinzani <quinzani at mdc.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 16:09:26 -0400
Subject: Cutting a hole in a 15 gal keg

>Does anyone out there have any ideas on cutting a 10" diameter hole in 
>the top of a 15.5 gallon stainless steel keg ? I have tried drilling, 
>grinding , sawing and swearing at it - nothing works ! Any suggestions ? 
> 
>Ian Smith 
 
 
I just did this a few weeks ago...actually I had it done by a sheet metal 
shop that I use to fabracate things at work. 
They plasma cut the hole. It is so cool. I had them fill it with water to 
avoid burning the inside with slag. 
Other things to keep in mind, cut the top off in a oval shape, that way you 
can use the cut top as a cover. 
The other thing is to weld a 1/2 or 3/4 SS nipple near the bottom and attach 
a ball valve to it. Makes it really nice when draining the wart into the 
sparge bag to filter out the hop leaves and other solid objects! 
I also made a stand and bought the Brinkman  160,000 btu burner with 
regulator and hose, cost me about 50 bucks total and it only takes 15 
minutes to get the water to 158 deg. for the first stage....try THAT on your 
stove top! (without starting with hot water) another 10 to a full 
boil...this thing CRANKS! 
 
Happy brewing!  I know I am! 
 
 
 
                              -=Q=- 
 
"Q" Brew Brewery...Home of Hairy Chest Ale 
- ------------------------------------------------------------ 
quinzani at mdc.net 
 

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From: "Houseman, David L TR" <DLH1 at trpo3.tr.unisys.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 96 16:27:00 EDT
Subject: Plastic in commerical operations

 
Joe asks: 
if plastic were good for brewing, then why is it in a commercial brewery 
you never see them as fermenters and lager tanks????? 
 
 
now you tell me how good plastic is? 
 
For the same reason you don't see a 50bbl glass carboy.  The materials 
useful in homebrewing do not lend themselves to a commerical operation 
with the volumes, the frequency of use, the cost of capital, etc. 
 
 

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From: martyt at sky.net
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 15:50:58 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: New e-mail Address

I've switched to a new Internet Service Provider due to the unreliability 
of SkyNET - my new address is: 
 
   martyt at wwgv.com 
 
I've also moved my Web pages to 
 
   http://www.wwi.net/martyt 
 
Please update your records and send all future e-mail to the above 
address. 
 
Your mail regarding 
  "Your Message has been received" 
has been forwarded to my new address and I will respond from that address. 
 
- -Marty 

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From: Marty Tippin <martyt at sky.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 15:50:31 -0500
Subject: [none]

I know it's a bit late, but I've been in contact with KJ Sullivan and have 
HTML'ized his design plans for that whiz-bang immersion chiller.  KJ tells 
me he is working on improved diagrams and some verbage to put around the 
pictures so the page will be considerably more complete in the near future. 
 
And on a somewhat related note, I've moved my "Homebrew Gadgets" page to a 
new Internet Service Provider.  KJ's chiller as well as several other nifty 
gadgets are linked from that page. 
 
The new URL is: 
 
        http://www.wwi.net/martyt 
 
Check it out when you have a chance! 
 
And yes, I've re-subscribed to the HBD.  It looks like things have settled 
down a bit and there's actually a little useful homebrew information being 
exchanged from time to time.  Of course, it also looks like Al and Dave are 
still in nearly constant rant mode (or at least random ramble mode) but I 
guess there's not much that can be done about that... 
 
- -Marty 
 marty at wwgv.com 
 
P.S. This e-mail is coming from my old account - apparently AOB can't handle 
mail from my new account as I've tried to post this message about 5 times 
from that address and get no response.  I've also sent several pieces of 
mail to Shawn, homebrew-digest-owner, etc.  at aob.org with no response.  So 
either nobody's driving this train or the ones that are driving it don't 
know what they're doing.  If anybody at the AOB is listening, I would 
appreciate it if you could check into the problem... 
 

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From: MOORE NATHAN TODD <moorent at bechtel.Colorado.EDU>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 14:49:46 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Welsh Ale

 I am interested in trying to brew a Welsh Ale.  I recently had a 
Welsh Ale on tap (Pint's Pub in Denver if anyone was wondering) that was 
delicious and had many unique qualities.  It is brewed by the Felinfoel 
Brewery.  I have also tried their bottled offerings (Welsh Ale, Welsh 
Bitter, And Festive Ale) and found them also excellent.  If any one has 
any information on this style or a recipe I would appreciate it.  Also, 
has any one tried any other brewer's Welsh Ales or is this style not 
realey a beer style but just Felinfoel's style.  Private mail is welcome 
and will be summarized and returned to the digest. 
      Nathan Moore 
      Denver, CO 
 
 

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