---

   FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
        Mike Donald, Digest Janitor-in-training
        Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!

Contents:
  RE: Chlorine, water and taste (Michael Gerholdt)
  Length of mash, length of boil (Matthew Taylor)
  Re: cutting a 15 gal keg (Charles Capwell)
  how much lye to use in solution?? (bob rogers)
  carbonator alternative (bob rogers)
  No Trub No Ferment/Uncle - NO make that Big Brother Sam (Steve Alexander)
  Yeast Pitching (William Graham)
  re: Don't boil in a scorched pot!! (Mike Porter)
  Plastic Commercial Brewery/ Copper & Brass in Beer (Rob Moline)
  Beer Related Websites ("Steven J. Bortnick")
  Plastic (Oh God not again etc.) (Michael Newman)
  FWH --> IBU's (Denis Barsalo)
  Fermenting in plastic, SS etc. ("MASSIMO FARAGGI")
  Re: AHA Bashing ("Karl F. Lutzen")
  Re: 15 gall keg hole cutting ((Tom Neary))
  Re: 15 gall keg hole cutting ("Keith Royster")
  Pumpkin Ale (Todd Anderson)
  Re: 15 gall keg hole cutting ((Scott Abene))
  15 gal. keg hole cutting (Neil Roberts)
  Unwanted Goverment Intrusion ("O'Mahoney, Larry")
  Primary to Secondary (Derek Lyons)
  Trub Question (Derek Lyons)
  Bashing and the AHA ((Bill Giffin))
  RE: Double decoction mashing ((George De Piro))

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Michael Gerholdt <gerholdt at ait.fredonia.edu>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 96 22:16:18 -0500
Subject: RE: Chlorine, water and taste

- -- [ From: Michael Gerholdt * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- 
 
 
 
John E. Carsten wrote: 
 
>where I reside, Oklahoma, USA ... our water supply has 3 ppm of 
chlorine present.  I have been told that chlorine is detectable by the human 
 
palate at concentrations as low as 1 ppm. 
 
John, can you taste or smell the chlorine at that concentration? I believe 
the threshold for detection by humans is generally considered closer to 7 
ppm. We have a public water supply due to the nature of the facility I 
manage, and the requirement is to keep at or above 1 ppm free chlorine, 
suggested between 1 and 4 ppm. 
 
The county inspector made the comment to me last week during our annual 
inspection that if you can smell chlorine in the water supply, you should 
add more chlorine to the water to kill it. This sounds backwards, but his 
explanation was that the chlorine that produces the smell is combined 
chlorine. Free chlorine will chemically neutralize combined chlorines and 
the odor. Just how is getting out of my area of knowledge. 
 
At any rate, I keep our *free* chlorine level at about 4 ppm most of the 
time, and though I feel that my palate and sense of smell are fairly 
sensitive, I don't smell or taste chlorine at that level. At higher levels, 
the smell is especially evident in the shower. 
 
Apparently you have chloramines rather than chlorine in your water. Because 
the chlorine is bonded to other substances, it is far less volatile than 
normal free chlorine ... won't boil out or evaporate. Will carbon filters 
remove it adequately? 
 
- -- 
 

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From: Matthew Taylor <mtaylor at mail.valverde.edu>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 96 08:06:26 -0700
Subject: Length of mash, length of boil

Over the weekend I brewed up my first ten gallon batch and now I have a couple 
of questions.
 
1) The mash didn't take as long as the book I was using said it would. There 
was no starch left after 1:15 instead of
the 2:30 the book called for.  Will this mean less yeild? 
 
2) I lost count on the number of gallons of run off and only put about 11 on 
the pot to boil. After the boil this left only
about 8 gallons of wort. Should I, or could I have diluted it to get back to 10
gallons?
 
Thanks 
Matt Taylor 
 
mtaylor at valverde.edu 

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From: Charles Capwell <chas at A119014.sat1.as.crl.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 21:20:28 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: cutting a 15 gal keg

> >From: Ian Smith <rela!isrs at netcom.com> 
> Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 14:59:07 -0600 (MDT) 
> Subject: 15 gall keg hole cutting 
> 
> Does anyone out there have any ideas on cutting a 10" diameter hole in 
> the top of a 15.5 gallon stainless steel keg ? I have tried drilling, 
> grinding , sawing and swearing at it - nothing works ! Any suggestions ? 
> 
> Ian Smith 
> 
I took mine to a local machine shop where they whipped out some sort of 
pneumatic handheld grinder looking thingie(sorry for getting techie :) 
and cut the hole perfectly. 
 
- -Chas (chas at crl.com) 
Crazy Cockatiel Brewery 
 
When I heated my home with oil, I used an average of 800 gallons a 
year.  I have found that I can keep comfortably warm for an entire 
winter with slightly over half that quantity of beer. 
                -- Dave Barry, "Postpetroleum Guzzler" 

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From: bob rogers <bob at carol.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 22:46:33 -0400
Subject: how much lye to use in solution??

how much lye (in teaspoons or tablespoons) would be added to a gallon of 
water to produce a 2% to 3% solution? 
thanks 
bob rogers   bob at carol.net 
 

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From: bob rogers <bob at carol.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 22:50:21 -0400
Subject: carbonator alternative

some folks have been talking about carbonators recently: 
 
i make caps for force carbonate beer with tire valve stems. just cut a hole 
in the bottle cap and push the stem through. i smear silicon caulk on the 
seal. they cost $.25 ea., so you can have a bunch of them, and if you loose 
one, no big deal. of course you will need an air-chuck in your co2 line, and 
mine leaks. :( 
 
i like 2 litre soda bottles for odd-sipping beer. after you pour off some 
beer, you can squeeze the sides of the bottle, screw the cap on, and fill 
the headspace with co2. 
 
bob: brewing in the heart of the bible belt 
 
AM I HAVING A NIGHMARE, OR DID I JUST SEE OLD MILWAUKEE ADVERTISED AS BEING 
JUDGED "BEST BEER IN AMERICA"? BY WHO? 
bob rogers   bob at carol.net 
 

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From: Steve Alexander <stevea at clv.mcd.mot.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 23:19:06 -0400
Subject: No Trub No Ferment/Uncle - NO make that Big Brother Sam

 
Just catching up on some past topics. 
 
Trub - 
 
Bryan Glos described the BT reader's letter regarding 80 
non-fermenting batches supposedly due to racking chilled wort off cold 
trub before pitching. I was amazed at this letter too.  I've alway 
chilled lager wort to near freezing and racked off the trub before 
pitching and have never had a fermentation problem using this method. 
It's pretty clear something else is wrong. 
 
In theory the yeast can create lipids for their cell walls by 
synthesis if oxygen is present, or by utilizing lipids in the trub 
with or without oxygen.  Lipids are a known limiting factor on yaest 
growth in wort.  This might explain slow fermentation in an 
unoxygenated wort, but non the non-fermentation described. 
 
== 
 
Timothy Sherburne says ... 
 
>... I agree 
>with Ed Steinkamp's opinion on this one, and there's LOTS of POSITIVE 
>examples of goverment regulation in the beer/wine/liquor industry. For 
 
Hmm, I'm not aware of such positive regulation except as regards 
content safety.  If you want counter examples consider what 
prohibition did to American commercial beer.  Consider that the 
British beer taxation system effectively destroyed the IPA style and 
other high gravity styles in Britain.  Also consider that the original 
drink of Scotland was a dark ale that was entirely eliminated when 
britain imposed taxation that was not so easily paid in the more rural 
and poorer Scotland.  Consider what US taxation (circa 1790) did to 
the US whiskey business and practice. 
 
>example, industry regulation ensures that a novice appreciator of fine 
>spirits won't get ripped off when they buy a $30 bottle of Scotch. 
 
Wrong - this is total BS.  You can easily find $30 and even $250 dollar 
bottles of single malt(SM) scotch whisky which aren't nearly worth the 
price.  Take Cardhu for example.  This whisky has an an notably light 
and bland character and was only used in blended scotch until the US 
trade for Scotch took off a few years ago.  At that time they designed 
a fancy bottle and label and started shipping this stuff to the US. 
It costs around $40 and not worth $10 IMO. 
 
Take a look at Glenfiddich - you can get this SM scotch with a really 
fancy bottle and label for about $250+ a fifth, but there are quite a 
few SM scotchs for under $50 that I and any SMSW fans would much 
rather have. 
 
Point is you can get 'ripped off' in spite of regulation.  Fraud is a 
illegal, but poor quality never will be.  If the label says wheat beer 
and there is no wheat - you can take 'em to court.  It's your job as a 
consumer to understand the claims that are and are not being made for 
the product you buy. If the product doesn't meet those claims - then 
sure get the judiciary involved.  Or at least advertise the facts. 
 
OTOH - the label on 'Red Dog' never said "the best beer you'll ever 
taste".  It just said "beer" and the Ad copy even mentions that the 
beer isn't even red.  So what's your beef ?  Maybe someone else likes 
it. If you don't like the flavor or color don't buy it again. 
 
If your complaint is that that label doesn't show that brewery 
location, then my resoponse is - I don't care.  A beers quality isn't 
indicated by the point of manufacture.  Even such egregious gaffs as 
a 'Killians Red' from Colorado don't phase me.  I'm buying (or not 
buying) for taste, not geography.  [I do think it's amusing that a 
local bar menu places ballantine IPA in India tho!]. 
 
You're living in a dream world if you imagine that regulation made all 
Scotch whiskys taste good - or that regulation can make all beer taste 
good.  Only competition can coerce the quality up. 
 
>Germany has their Reinheitsgebot for beer and France makes sure that a 
>bottle of sparkling grape juice doesn't get labeled as Champagne unless 
>it's from that region. Indeed, breweries and vinards can (and do) 
>leverage off of these regulations to promote the quality of their 
>products. 
 
Reinheitsgebot is strictly about product purity not labelling and is 
overly restrictive by any reasonable modern measure.  it also 
illustrates the fact that once a law is passed (or decreed) it is 
never repealed until long after it has stopped making sense - and 
usually not until it becomes an overbearing detriment.  BTW I've 
tasted some really bad Czech beers that may well have passed 
Reinheitsgebot. 
 
The French do have labeling laws that require district and appellation 
still do not 'content label'.  You can by a bordeaux that has 100% 
merlot grape, or 100% cabernet sauvignon - and the label won't tell 
you.  The French also instituted a classification system for bordeaux 
in the middle 1800s, which now has some obvious errors. The label 
still doesn't indicate quality, only location and in some cases like 
champagne the method of production.  I can easily demonstrate 
overpriced poor quality champagne, as nearly half the champagnes 
reviewed in the 'Wine Specator' get mediocre to poor scores. 
Same for bordeaux - many great wines, and some real losers carry 
'Bordeaux' on the label. 
 
>This is all in the name of protecting the consumer (myself included), 
>which, IMHO can't always tell the difference between marketing BS and the 
>"real thing." 
 
Please god, save me from people and governments trying to protect me. 
 
If you can't tell a good beer from a bad one by tasting it, then drink 
any beer.  If you CAN tell the difference then just buy the good one - 
it's just that simple ?  This system of voting with dollars will show 
up as a lack of profits at the lousy brewers' shop and he will 
subsequently cease to brew.  It's just that easy - no further laws are 
required to make this simple and elegant system work.  It works just 
as well for A-B and Miller as it does for the local brewpub. 
 
>Steve, you do have a good point about contacting the manufacturers, but 
>there is no "arsenal of weapons to combat fraud" in the beer marketplace 
 
If there is fraud then contact the city or county prosecuter of your 
local area - it a criminal offense, but the damages are a civil 
offense.  I'd consider this a pretty good weapon.  Maybe A-Bs lawyers 
would help you out. I've heard of fraud cases being brought over some 
pretty minor things - especially by a prosecutor anxious to get 
re-elected.  Also if your sure of your fraud facts you can tell your 
friends and post it to HBD - further speading the knowledge of an 
unscrupulous practice that others can avoid. 
 
>that I'm aware of, unless Consumer Reports now has a beer section. :) 
 
Actually I believe that CR did taste test beers w/in the past year or 
so.  No joke.  Not that I'd trust their opinion over say a Michael 
Jackson book, or the 'Malt Advocate'. 
 
>Anyway, I'll drink my homebrew most of the time and stick to buying local 
>brands I know brew a quality product when I do buy. 
 
They why are you advocating laws ?  Most anyone with a tongue can tell 
good beer from bad, but the gov't has no tongue ! 
 
Steve Alexander 
 

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From: William Graham <weg at rmi.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 21:55:06 -0600
Subject: Yeast Pitching

Hello - 
 I recently posted a question about dry-pitching (why not?) vs. liquid 
stuff, and got a few answers which boiled down to 1) the yeasties start 
munching quicker with liquid stuff, and 2) the yeasties produce better 
tasting beer with liquid stuff. I will conditionally agree with #2 
(until I can test my currently resting batches), but dry pitching, in my 
experience, has *always* been a fast starter. Of course, the fact that 
ambient temp was > 70 probably had something to do with it. 
 
 Well, to get to the point, I stepped up some liquid yeast, and got a 
nice ferment going on some extract. I then pitched the *malt* part of 
it, *not* the stuff on the bottom, thinking the active yeasties would be 
swimming around in the malt, with bone-tired yeasties resting on the 
bottom. But, I was glancing thru Dave Miller's brewing book tonight, and 
he mentions that you *dump* the "malt" stuff, and pitch the "trub". My 
stuff started just fine (within a few hours) ....so what should you 
pitch... the malt(liquid stuff) or the trub(junk cluttering up the 
bottom)? Where are the most prepared and psyched-up yeasties? 
 
Anticipation.... 
 Bill 

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From: Mike Porter <maporter at sky.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 23:25:57 -0500
Subject: re: Don't boil in a scorched pot!!

Mike in Cherry Hill wrote: 
 
>Just a word of warning from my own recent experience. I scorched the bottom of
>mash tun while decocting a weizen.  After transferring the grain into my GOTT 
>for the sparge, I saw the scorch but could not remove it no matter how hard I 
>scrubbed with a Scotchbrite pad. I even threw the keg on the king cooker with 
>some water in it in the hope of boiling the shit off. No luck. So I had no 
choice but to sparge into the scorched keg and then proceed with boil. Long
>story short, it's the first beer I had to dump....10 gallons no less! 
>Actually I haven't dumped it all yet, but I don't hold any hope that it's 
gonne
>get better. 
 
DON'T dump it. Been there, done that. |If you can lager it for a few weeks, 
most
of the scorched taste will go away. Probably won't go away completely, but the 
beer will still be drinkable. (In fact, many thought my Scorchtoberfest was 
quite
good!) 
 
map 
 
 
 
 
- -- 
Mike Porter  Stress and Vibration Consulting Services 
Dynamic Analysis FEA Consulting and Training 
(913) 341-3269 

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From: Rob Moline <brewer at kansas.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 23:19:16 -0500
Subject: Plastic Commercial Brewery/ Copper & Brass in Beer

>From: Joe Rolfe <onbc at shore.net> 
>Subject: RE: the plastic debate..... 
>if plastic were good for brewing, then why is it in a commercial brewery 
>you never see them as fermenters and lager tanks????? 
 
        Only know of one, Kinney Baughman, of Cottonwood Brewing in North 
Carolina won a medal at GABF last year (or the year before) with an extract 
based Belgian brewed in 55 gallon (?) plastic drums. 
 
>From: "Taber, Bruce" <Bruce.Taber at nrc.ca> 
>Subject: copper and brass in beer 
> My keg system uses copper tubing and brass fittings in which beer will 
>sit for extended periods of time.  I know there is no problems with 
>making beer in copper, but what about storing beer in contact with 
>copper and brass?  Any potential dangers or off-flavors?  IMBR? 
 
        Current brewpub concern; FDA has an interest in copper and brass 
fittings in contact with acidic solutions, eg beer, and has recommended that 
such fittings be no longer used. States and municipalities may decide to 
issue their own restrictions, based on this recommendation. The feds may 
wish to enact their own ban, but currently it is just a "suggestion" from 
FDA. I heard of a law in California banning the use of such fittings 
beginning 1.1. 98 (?), but haven't yet verified this. I do expect this to 
soon be an FDA directive, so everyone in the draft sales business will have 
to buy stainless faucets. 
        Just today, received a phone request from the area ATF conducting a 
survey for another agency. I wouldn't be surprised if Bill uses this as a 
campaign tactic, "I saved the purity of your beer!," two days before the 
election! 
        But did learn from them that you can get exempted from Label 
Approval from ATF if you aren't selling interstate. Still have to do some 
forms though. 
Jethro 
 
Cheers! 
Rob Moline 
Little Apple Brewing Company 
Manhattan, Kansas 
 
"The more I know about beer, the more I realize I need to know more about 
beer!"
 

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From: "Steven J. Bortnick" <automan at ici.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 07:23:59 -0400
Subject: Beer Related Websites

I am in the process of setting up my homepage, and need some links to 
some "GOOD" beer and homebrew related sites.  Can you all email me some? 
 
Thanx in advance 
 
Steven 
- -- 
                   "I Am The Lizard King, I Can Do Anything" 
                   "Relax. Don't Worry. Have A Homebrew" 
              "Opinions Are Like Assholes...Everyone Got One" 
                   "I Am The First Truly Automatic Man" 
                 "Use The Force..... Trust Your Feelings" 
            http://www.ici.net/cust_pages/automan/automan.html 

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From: Michael Newman <100711.2111 at CompuServe.COM>
Date: 23 Oct 96 07:26:48 EDT
Subject: Plastic (Oh God not again etc.)

I think I must be really sad. I have been reading the posts on plastic versus 
glass before anything else. 
 
Does anyone actually have any proper data as opposed to dogma, personal 
feelings
etc? I think there are enough of us who would be interested to justify a post 
if
you have. 
 
I understand the objection to plastic's ability to be scratched very easily. 
But
when I look at my carefully cleaned (with a sponge-- seems to work without 
prolonged soaking in my brewery) buckets the surface looks very smooth/ shiny. 
When I look at most ss vessels (not mirror finish) the surface is matt. So if 
the scratches I might put into plastic harbour nasties why don't the 
irregularities on ss? 
 
Do you have different lid on your buckets in the US. Once I have fitted mine it
need a Herculean effort to get the buggers off. If I run liquid off through the
tap the lid buckles in and stays like that-- ie no air gets in. Some of them a 
a
real pain in the ass because they are nearly impossible to remove. 
 
So for now I will ferment in plastic although I am waiting for the arrival of a
carboy to use as a secondary. It will be interesting to see if there is an 
improvement in my beer. 
 
MICHAEL NEWMAN, Warminster, UK 
 

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From: Denis Barsalo <denisb at CAM.ORG>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 07:37:04 -0500
Subject: FWH --> IBU's

Brewersand Mashers, 
 Haven't seen any posts on FWH in a while, thought I should start one! 
 I've had very good results using low AA hops such as imported Saaz 
or Hallertauer at around 2 or 3% for FWH, but now I want to use something 
with a little higher AA like Cascade or Fuggles in a Pale Ale I'm about to 
brew. 
 How will FWH affect my IBU's? If I want to have lots of 
aroma/flavor from my FWH, will the hops also contribute to my total IBU's 
significantly? How do I calculate this? Is there a FWH FAQ? 
 
TIA 
 
Denis 
 
P.S. For the AC: FWH (First Wort Hopping), AA (Alpha Acids), IBU 
(International Bittering Units), FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions), TIA 
(Thanks In Advance), AC (Acronym Challenged) ;-) 
 
 

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From: "MASSIMO FARAGGI" <maxfarag at hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 04:50:49 -0700
Subject: Fermenting in plastic, SS etc.

The plastic vs. glass debate could have been boring for "old" HBDers which 
probably have seen it many times in the Digest, but it was interesting for a 
"new" like me. But I think I am missing a very basic point: why are scratches 
in the fermenter such a problem? Is it impossible to sanitize a scratched bin 
with a bleach solution? 
 
If you tell me it's impossible I think I'll have to buy a new fermenter, 
because my plastic one is old and probably scratched (actually its inner 
surface was not so smooth even when I bought it). Could I use it anyway as a 
"bottling bucket" when priming? 
 
And, last question: as I don't want to restart the glass/plastic battle, what 
about fermenting in Stainless Steel? 
(I use open fermentation and I don't brew lagers) 
SS seems rarely used by hbrewers, is that just a matter of costs? 
 
TIA 
 
 
 
Massimo Faraggi       GENOVA - ITALY 
maxfarag at hotmail.com 
 
- --------------------------------------------------------- 
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com 
- --------------------------------------------------------- 

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From: "Karl F. Lutzen" <lutzen at alpha.rollanet.org>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 07:08:23 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: AHA Bashing

Jim Liddil Wrote: 
 
>I think based on what is happening at the AHA now that that HBD 
>be moved from the AOB server.  If the AHA has the attitude of 
>getting rid of who ever does not serve their political agenda 
>then I think there is no reason to use their server.  It is time 
>for homebrewers to cut the cord from the AHA.  It is time 
>for an alternative that does not just SAY they listen to the 
>"members".  With this in mind an alternaitve server should be 
>found for the HBD. 
 
 
I really don't want to get into the fire on this one over what 
goes on at the AHA/AOB, because it really is pointless to argue 
over what goes on their.  They have served as good instructional 
body and promoted the homebrewing (and craft brewing) trade very 
well in the past.  What I dislike is the lack of information with 
your posts.  There are complaints, but no facts around them. 
Please fill us in if you are aware of something nasty going on. 
 
Now as far as the latter part of your note, there are 
alternatives to the HBD.  There is the newsgroup 
rec.crafts.brewing with so much noise and other problems, it 
makes the AOB sponsered HBD look like the best game in town.  (I 
rarely go there anymore.) Being a long time reader of the HBD, I 
should point out that Rob Gardner went through LOTS of problems 
while going through his learning process of providing the HBD. 
There are also other discussion forums popping up on the 'net 
 
that are webbed based.  I've seen them on several sites (but can't 
locate the list at the moment) and have recently added one to The Brewery web 
site:
 
             http://alpha.rollanet.org/wwwboard 
 
I want to point out that this new discussion board is not really 
meant as a replacement, but if you dislike the current situation 
at the AHA/AOB, there is an alternative. 
 
================================================================== 
Karl Lutzen    lutzen at alpha.rollanet.org 
System Administrator 
The Brewery    http://alpha.rollanet.org/ 

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From: thomas.neary at peri.com (Tom Neary)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 08:16:18 -0400
Subject: Re: 15 gall keg hole cutting

 
I just recently cut 3 kegs open with ease.  What I used was a Sawzall on 
the highest speed setting and a 4" tungsten carbide blade.  I used one 
blade per keg.  If waited for the blade to cool I might have been able to 
stretch the blades.  They broke at the base as soon as I started cutting 
into the second keg.   Using this setup I was able to cut all three tops in 
under 1/2 hour.  The tungsten carbide blades cut through the kegs very easily 
and smoothly.  The edges weren't that rough and were easily sanded down with 
a 60 grit drum pad on my dremel. 
 
TN 

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From: "Keith Royster" <keith.royster at pex.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 08:49:11 -0500
Subject: Re: 15 gall keg hole cutting

Ian Smith <rela!isrs at netcom.com> writes: 
 
> Does anyone out there have any ideas on cutting a 10" diameter 
> hole in the top of a 15.5 gallon stainless steel keg ? I have tried 
> drilling, grinding , sawing and swearing at it - nothing works ! 
 
I've successfully used a hand-held disc grinder with a metal cutting 
disk.  This is not the benchtop grinder variety used for sharpening 
axes, but is the hand-held kind that is similar to a circular saw. I 
rented the grinder from a power-tools rental store for about $7/day 
and bought the disc for a buck and change.  It takes time and 
patience to slowly cut through the top of the keg, but I think it 
makes a nicer cut than drilling or sawing.  Plus you can use the 
grinder to smooth the edges of your cut after you've broken through. 
Gloves and goggles are highly recommended (hot metal sparks will fly) 
and ear plugs are imperitive (it is a HoRrEnDoUs sound). 
 
You can also use a saber saw with a metal cutting blade, but be 
prepared to go through multiple blades. I suppose you'd have to 
drill a starter hole first. Gloves, goggles, and ear plugs apply 
here, too. 
 
Keith Royster <keith.royster at pex.net> 
Mooresville, NC, USA 
 
"In the beginning, there was nothing - but nothing is unstable. 
And nothing borrowed nothing from nothing, within the limits of 
uncertainty, and became something. The rest is just math..." 
- --Paraphrased from Prof. Kim Macalester College Physics Dept. 

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From: Todd Anderson <TRANDER at VM.SC.EDU>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 96 09:12:34 EDT
Subject: Pumpkin Ale

Greetings Fellow Zymurgists: 
 
Going to be bottling my annual Pumpkin Ale tomorrow night and would like 
the collective comments from those more experienced than I.  This year I 
used fresh pumpkin in my recipe instead of canned pumpkin in other years. 
I've kept the pumpkin in my carboy for the last week during first stage 
blow-off period.  Was this a good thing?  I'm starting to have this 
sinking belief that I should have taken the pumpkin out after cooking. 
 
Secondly, is there really any difference in taste between fresh and canned 
pumpkin in the beer? 
 
Thanks in advance for any response. 
Todd in South Carolina. 

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From: sabene at fcg.net (Scott Abene)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 08:31:00 -0600
Subject: Re: 15 gall keg hole cutting

>From: Ian Smith <rela!isrs at netcom.com> 
>Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 14:59:07 -0600 (MDT) 
>Subject: 15 gall keg hole cutting 
> 
>Does anyone out there have any ideas on cutting a 10" diameter hole in 
>the top of a 15.5 gallon stainless steel keg ? I have tried drilling, 
>grinding , sawing and swearing at it - nothing works ! Any suggestions ? 
> 
>Ian Smith 
 
 
I just sawed kegs about 1 month ago (and my hearing is just about where it 
was before I started sawing). 
 
I used a sawz all (sp?) with a bit that was made to cut cast iron. I cut 2 
tops off kegs and only used 2 of these blades (they were $4 a piece). The 
hole created by the sawz all then has to be ground and polished (unless of 
course you would like to have your arms sliced off by the jagged edges). I 
ground the edges with a bench grinder and pretty much ate up the fine 
grinding wheel. 
 
All in all the kegs came out fantastic and I spent about 1 1/2 hours on 
each keg. 
 
Tips: 
 
1. Fill keg 1/4 of the way with water before sawing and the bell tone will 
be reduced alot. 
 
2. Wear protective eye wear or plan on have sharp little pieces of 
stainless pierce your eyes. 
 
3. definitely wear some kind of hearing protection ( I have 30db pads, but 
I have also played guitar forever in front of stacks of amps, cotton will 
do nicely) 
 
4. remember that the steel is going to get very very hot so don't touch 
it... (My drunken neighbor learned this the hard way). 
 
Next step for me will be all the welding.... Looks like fun. 
 
Later, 
 
- -Scott 
 
############################################### 
#                 Scott Abene                 # 
#               skotrat at wwa.com               # 
#   SKOTRAT'S HOMEBREW "BEER SLUT" WEBPAGE    # 
#        http://miso.wwa.com/~skotrat         # 
#     SKOTRAT'S HOMEBREW RECIPE ARCHIVE       # 
#    http://miso.wwa.com/~skotrat/recipes     # 
#    SKOTRATS BREW RAT CHAT HOMEBREW CHAT     # 
# http://miso.wwa.com/~skotrat/Brew-Rat-Chat  # 
############################################### 
 
 

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From: Neil Roberts <neil at wsnet.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 09:37:11 -0500
Subject: 15 gal. keg hole cutting

Ian Smith <rela!isrs at netcom.com> wrote: 
 
> 
> Does anyone out there have any ideas on cutting a 10" diameter hole in 
> the top of a 15.5 gallon stainless steel keg ? I have tried drilling, 
> grinding , sawing and swearing at it - nothing works ! Any suggestions ? 
> 
> Ian Smith 
> 
 
Ian, 
I did this last year and had one hell of a time getting through it. I 
also first tried drilling, etc. It turned out that the best way to cut 
out the top with the tools we had was to mark off a circle on the top, 
drill a hole to start, and cut from there. Once you have the hole, it 
isn't so hard to "peel" the steel back as it is to just saw a hole all 
the way around. 
 
Now the odd thing for us was that I had access to my father-in-law's 
pneumatic somethingorother that was like an air hammer. It had a kind of 
a crow's foot attachment (like a crowbar, for example). I could fit the 
notch in said attachment into the hole I had drilled and just "hammer" 
my way around in a rough circle. This was not as hard as it sounds, but 
was *incredibly* loud. Wear earplugs if you try to beat on these kegs. 
 
After I had a rough hole, I went back with a 6" side grinder and shaped 
it up into what looks more like a circle. Total time was only about 30 
minutes per keg after we figured out what we were doing. 
 
I don't really recommend my method, because you probably don't have 
access to an air hammer. But I do hear that the Sawzall brand saws will 
do a nice job if you can get your hands on one. 
 
Neil Roberts 
neil at wsnet.com 

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From: "O'Mahoney, Larry" <LLOM at chevron.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 96 09:34:00 CDT
Subject: Unwanted Goverment Intrusion

 
To all you dolts who whined about wanting more government regulation and 
intervention in the beer industry, try reading the following at: 
 
http://www.heritage.org/heritage/commentary/op-at1.html. 
 
I quote: 
 
" With the fall elections just weeks away, there's one issue far more 
important to many Americans than presidential debates, 
congressional mudslinging or the latest Gallup poll. It's beer. 
 
Specifically, the beer tax. This may come as a shock, but every time one of 
America's 75 million beer drinkers picks up a 
six-pack of his favorite brew, 43 percent of the cost comes directly from 
taxes, according to a study by the economic consulting 
firm DRI/McGraw-Hill. To put this in perspective, a $5 six-pack actually 
costs only $2.85 -- until you factor in the tax." 
 
 
43% of the cost of a 6-pack is for taxes!!!  Even if it was only 25% that 
would still be $1.25. So you wasted 5 or 6 bucks on a 6-pack of 
"microbrewed" swill? Don't buy it again, they'll be out of business soon 
enough. If you had that extra 43% in your pocket each time you purchased a 
6-pack how many more beers could you purchase and sample? Or suppose "Joe 
Sixpack" had the extra 43% in his pocket. Maybe he could afford to purchase 
an extra few bottles of really good microbrew, get used to it, and demand 
more of it. Every time the government sticks its nose into something in the 
private sector, where it doesn't belong in the first place, the price goes 
up. 
 
Just be thankful you don't get ALL the government you pay for. 
 
Larry 

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From: Derek Lyons <elde at hurricane.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 07:45:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Primary to Secondary

At what point should I tranfer to secondary?  After the krausen falls and 
bubbling slows?  After the bulk of the yeast drops out? 
 

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From: Derek Lyons <elde at hurricane.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 07:45:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Trub Question

After chilling and tranferring to the fermenter, I get this massive amount 
of trub coagulating in the fermenter.  (Usually within 1/2 to 1 hour after 
siphoning.)  Even this my latest batch, which was siphoned thru a grain bag 
with a choreboy wrapped around the siphon tube. 
 
What is the source of this?  Should I let the wort sit longer in the kettle 
before transferring? 
 
Derek 
 

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From: bill-giffin at juno.com (Bill Giffin)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 10:57:56 cst
Subject: Bashing and the AHA

Top of the morning to ye all, 
 
I think bashing is the incorrect term to be using about the AHA, AOB.  I 
think that a better term to use would be constructive criticisms.  If you 
think the AHA et al is without fault flame me personally.  Otherwise in 
my opinion the AHA, AOB was created by Charlie so he could afford his 
personal pub crawl about the world.  Karen knows nothing about 
homebrewing, homebrewers,  or beer.  I think that Karen need a few more 
courses on how to treat folks, how to respond to concerns of the 
"MEMBERSHIP" of the AHA and to worry about homebrewers instead of her 
advertisers,  you know the folks who make malt extract. 
 
HBD was much better before the advent of the AHA into our world.  Lets 
get them out of the digest business!!!  Further more do as I have done as 
well as the majority of the members of my homebrew club have done, CANCEL 
YOU MEMBERSHIP IN THE AHA!!  Want a better magazine to help with you 
homebrewing problem then subscribe to Brewing Techniques. 
 
Bill 
Richmond, Maine 

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From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro)
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 08:57:48 -0700
Subject: RE: Double decoction mashing

     Hi! 
 
     SM writes in to describe his double decoction schedule.  He mashed-in 
     at 122F (Protein rest), than pulled a decoction.  He heated it to 154, 
     rested for starch conversion, then heated to boiling.  He added it 
     back to the main mash, raising the temp to 150F.  He then pulled a 
     second decoction, boiled it and added it back to the main mash, 
     raising the temp to 167F. 
 
     That last step was a mistake.  When you boil the decoction you release 
     unconverted starch.  When you return the decoction to the main mash, 
     you want to do it so that the temperature stays low enough for the 
     amylases to still be active.  What the described schedule did is 
     denature the amylases while adding back unconverted starch. 
 
     To hit that last step (mash-out), either heat the tun directly or 
     remove some of the liquid portion of the mash, bring it up to a boil, 
     and return it to the main mash to raise the temperature to 168F. 
 
     As far as the saccharification rest temperatures are concerned, 150F 
     is fine if you want a highly fermentable wort.  If you want sweeter 
     beer, use a higher temp. 
 
     The main point of decoction mashing these days is to develop 
     melanoidins.  These are compounds that give beer its malty aroma and 
     taste.  They are formed from amino acids and simple sugars during 
     boiling. 
 
     Because of this, a single 30-40 minute decoction is probably 
     sufficient.  Double decocting is far more time and energy consuming, 
     and probably doesn't add much more to the final product than a single 
     decoction. 
 
     Also because of the fact that you need sugars to make melanoidins, you 
     should rest at the first saccharification step long enough to ensure 
     that an adequate amount of sugar has formed.  I don't think you need 
     to wait for complete conversion, though (conversion will continue in 
     the main mash after the decoction has been pulled). 
 
     I highly recommend the books "German Wheat Beer" (Warner) and "Bock" 
     (Richman) for their discussions about decocting.  They keep everything 
     simple and straight forward. 
 
     Have fun! 
 
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY) 

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