Homebrew Digest Tuesday, 29 October 1996 Number 2254
![[Prev HBD]](/img/previous.gif)
![[Index]](/img/index_button.gif)
![[Next HBD]](/img/next.gif)
![[Back]](/img/up_level_button.gif)
FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Mike Donald, Digest Janitor-in-training
Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!
Contents:
Re: Time-limited brewing (RUSt1d?)
Lagering facilities? (bmanbeck at isd.net)
dry hopping (Michael Demers)
pete's wicked maple porter ("Don)
Secondary Carbonation (Cuchulain Libby)
Complaints (eric fouch)
A good beer drinker's story!- Part 1 (AJUNDE at ccmail.monsanto.com)
A good beer drinker's story! - Part 2 (AJUNDE at ccmail.monsanto.com)
Re: Secondary Carbonation (RUSt1d?)
[none] (Peter Ensminger)
re: Killer Chiller Question (Mike Donald)
DME Vendors......... ((Aesoph, Michael))
Poor ferments (Mike Donald)
Counterflow Wort Chiller (Mike Donald)
3-Vessel Brewing Comparisons (Rob Kienle)
Carbonation question / how hard to boil / civility (Larry Johnson)
For SUBMISSIONS to be published, send mail to:
homebrew at aob.org
For (UN)SUBSCRIBE requests, send mail to:
homebrew-digest-request@ aob.org
and include ONLY subscribe or unsubscribe in the BODY of the message.
Please note that if subscribed via BEER-L, you must unsubscribe by sending
a one line e-mail to listserv at ua1vm.ua.edu that says: UNSUB BEER-L
If your address is changing, please unsubscribe from the old address and
then subscribe from the new address.
If your account is being deleted, please be courteous and unsubscribe first.
For technical problems send e-mail to the Digest Janitor,
homebrew-digest-owner at aob.org.
OTHER HOMEBREW INFORMATION
http://www.aob.org/aob - The AHA's web site.
http://alpha.rollanet.org - "The Brewery" and the Cat's Meow Archives.
info at aob.org - automated e-mail homebrewing information.
ARCHIVES:
At ftp.stanford.edu in /pub/clubs/homebrew/beer via anonymous ftp. Also
http://alpha.rollanet.org on the web and at majordomo at aob.org by e-mail.
COPYRIGHT:
As with all forums such as this one, copyrights are retained by the
original authors. In accordance with the wishes of the members of the
Homebrew Digest, posts to the HBD may NOT be sold or used as part of a
collection that is sold without the original authors' consent. Copies
may ONLY be made available at no charge and should include the current
posting and subscription addresses for the HBD.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: RUSt1d? <rust1d at li.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 14:15:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Time-limited brewing
>Chunk 1: Clean/sanitize brew equipment
> Mash and Lauter
>
>Chunk 2: Boil
> chill and pitch.
R,
Point your web browser at http://nemesis.engin.umich.edu:8080/cgi-bin/dothread
and do a search of previous HBD's on "Split" or something similar.
This topic has been covered several times in the last year and I'm sure in
the years before...
The gist of the consensus is: Yes, no problem.
John Varady
**************************
** rust1d at li.com **
** John Nicholas Varady ** <-- Now Married.
** Eve Courtney Hoyt **
**************************
http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady/index.html
Return to table of contents
From: bmanbeck at isd.net
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 13:20:54 +0000
Subject: Lagering facilities?
I have a question for the general audience concerning lagering
facilities. As of now, I am only able to make ales because I have no
where to hold a carboy below 60 degrees. I would like to make a
unit that will hold a couple of carboys for lagering. The easiest
and most reliable means is a refrigerator. I am looking for
other ideas that might be a little more cost effective. I would
appreciate any ideas and insight that anyone has (especially
things that work for you). Thanks in advance for any responses.
Personal e-mail responses are welcomed.
Brad Manbeck
bjm at roisysinc.com
Return to table of contents
From: Michael Demers <mdemers at cabletron.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 14:47:10 -0500
Subject: dry hopping
Hello group,
I have dry hopped quite a few american pale
ales with whole hops and seem to get ok results.
Does anybody out there use pellet hops for dry
hopping?? I think I've seen it written that the
pellet hops sink. Is that true?? I'm thinking
of trying an experiment where I dry hop two
identical batches, one with whole hops, one with
pellets and see if there's any noticable difference.
Has anyone already tried such an experiment??
Thanks,
Mike D.
Return to table of contents
From: "Don Leone"<DLeone at gw.stlnet.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 13:59:57 -0500
Subject: pete's wicked maple porter
hello,
this is my first post. i have learned quite a bit on this mailing list and
want to thank all who have contributed. onto my request.
a couple of weeks ago i drank a bottle of pete's wicked maple porter, and
quite frankly - loved it. now i want to brew it. i have found a few
generic maple porter and stout recipes on cats meow, an extract recipe list
and on rec.crafts.brewing. but what i want is one that will produce pete's
maple porter - that is, someone who drank pwmp, brewed their own and
hopefully duplicated the recipe. i have not made the plunge into all-grain
(mostly because of a lack of time), so it would have to be an extract
recipe. can anybody help? tia...
"love animals don't eat them"
don leone
dleone at pd.stlnet.com
http://home.stlnet.com/~dleone/index.html
Return to table of contents
From: Cuchulain Libby <hogan at connecti.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 14:09:27 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Secondary Carbonation
Hello All,
Yesterday I racked an IPA into the carboy after a 4 day ferment (1056).
Compared to my previous efforts, all brown/dark ales, there was quite a bit
of carbonation. Is there such a thing as 'normal' carbonation in the primary
(or secondary), or is this a sign of future problems i.e., overcarbonation
in the bottle. The only difference in my methodology was to put the primary
in a tub with water, towels, and frozen 20 0z soda bottles (3), rather then
let it sit on the floor at room temp.
Thanks,
Cuchulain
Twisted Nipple Brewery
San Antonio, TX
GO RAIDERS!
*********************************************************************
* Cuchulain Libby * Connect International Inc. *
* Internet Marketing Executive * 45 N.E. Loop 410 *
* hogan at connecti.com * Suite 180 *
* Office: 210-341-2599 * San Antonio TX 78216 *
* 1-888-797-2424 * Fax: 210-341-6725 *
*********************************************************************
Return to table of contents
From: eric fouch <S=eric_fouch%S=fouch%G=eric%DDA=ID=STC021+pefouch%Steelcase-Inc at mcimail.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 96 15:24 EST
Subject: Complaints
Date: Tuesday, 29 October 1996 3:22pm ET
To: STC012.HONLY at STC010.SNADS
From: Eric.Fouch at STC001
Subject: Complaints
In-Reply-To: The letter of Tuesday, 29 October 1996 2:37pm ET
Dear Sirs:
I wish to complain about the large number of complaints about people
complaining. It used to be that if someone was complaining, nobody
complained about it. I hate to complain, but all this complaining
about complaints has me in complaint.
I suggest bombing the complaintants in their homes, and gunning them down with
machine guns when they run out into the streets. Some of my views aren't
very popular, and although I am a Gynecologist, this is my lunch hour.
Regards,
Rear Admiral There's a Stone in my Boot, Mrs.
Return to table of contents
From: AJUNDE at ccmail.monsanto.com
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 14:46:53 -0600
Subject: A good beer drinker's story!- Part 1
- ---------------------------- Forwarded with Changes ---------------------------
From: ALLEN J UNDERDOWN at MONSL404
Date: 10/29/96 10:34AM
To: homebrew at aob.org at INTERNET
Subject: A good beer drinker's story!
- ---------------------------- Forwarded with Changes ---------------------------
From: MICHAEL J KOZIATEK at MONSL404
Date: 10/29/96 9:24AM
To: brian.dreyer at mokcmtgate.sprint.com at INTERNET
To: rekstrom at kgordon.com at INTERNET
To: skobel at cerner.com at INTERNET
To: 71062.1117 at compuserve.com at INTERNET
To: STEVEN J KLEIN at MONCMIS2
To: KELLY N STEARNS
To: JIGAR K GANDHI
To: ALLEN J UNDERDOWN
Subject: A good beer drinker's story!
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I forward this with full knowledge of the possible flames that I may
receive from the list. I considered making editorial notes, but
decided against this fearing more flames. The only comments that I
have is that on the Suckpoint should have 7 subtracted from all
entries, and that I whole heartedly aggree to Millers comments on gun
control. Thanks and enjoy.
Additional - I have not received the list since Oct 22, nor have I
received an un-subscr. message. Perhaps the
Digest-Janitor-In-Training can explain? If I have been deleted from
the list, please add me back in!
| Allen Underdown - ajunde at ccmail.monsanto.com |
| ITSS WAN Group - Monsanto World Headquarters - St. Louis, MO |
| Homebrewing in the Shadow of the Mighty AB, the |
| inventors of the Clidesdale Water Filtration System |
______________________________ Forward Header
__________________________________
Subject: A good beer drinker's story!
Author: MICHAEL J KOZIATEK at MONSL404
Date: 10/29/96 9:24 AM
Read at you leisure -- Patrick (apl0142 at edwardjones.com)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sir or Madam,
I have been a drinker of Miller beer's for many years (actually,
ever since that other company donated a big chunk of change to Handgun
Control Inc. back in the mid 80's).
Initially, my beer of choice was Lite, but some time in mid 1990
while in Honduras I switched to MGD smuggled up from Panama. Now, for
nearly six years, I have been a faithful drinker of MGD.
For these past years, I have come to expect certain things from
Genuine Draft. I expect that whenever I see that gold can of MGD, I am
about ready to enjoy a great, smooth brew.
But wait! Sometime around the first of the year, my beloved MGD
changed colors, so to speak. That familiar gold can was no longer
gold! Knowing that I am, by nature, somewhat resistant to change, I
forced myself to reserve Judgment on the new can design.
Gradually, I grew to appreciate the new label.
That was until about May of this year. That was when I
discovered (empirically) that I really didn't like the new design.
Further investigation of the cause of my distress resulted in the
following observations:
1. Your cans are made of aluminum.
2. Aluminum is a great conductor of energy.
3. Your beer is commonly consumed outside, and thus, the
container may be exposed to sunlight.
4. Sunlight striking the can causes radiant warming of the
surface of the can.
5. The resultant heat (energy) is transferred through the
aluminum, by conduction, to the contents of the can (the
beer).
6. Warm beer sucks.
This is a process that can be observed in just about any beer.
However, this process is significantly accelerated in MGD because you
painted the damn can black!!!
Who was the rocket scientist that designed the new graphic for
the can and implemented the change right before summer? Granted, this
process may not be real evident up there in Wisconsin, but down here
in Oklahoma where the summers are both sunny and hot, this effect is
quite a problem. There's no telling what the folks in Texas and
Arizona are having to put up with. (NO SHIT !)
Knowing that you would probably not address this issue unless you
had firm evidence of a problem, I and several other subjects conducted
extensive experimentation. The results of these experiments are
listed below.
The experiments were conducted over two days on the deck next to
my pool. The study included seven different types of beer (leftovers
from a party the previous weekend) that were initially chilled to 38
and then left exposed to sunlight for different lengths of time.
These beers were sampled by the test subjects at different intervals.
The subjects, all normally MGD drinkers, were asked at each sampling
interval their impressions of the different beers.
The length of time between the initial exposure to sunlight and
the point where the subject determined the sample undrinkable (the
Suckpoint) was determined. The average ambient temperature for the
trials was 95 degrees F.
Beer Type Average Suckpoint (min)
Miller Lite (white can) 6.2
Bud (white can) 5.5
Bud Lite (silver can) 5.2
Ice House (blue and silver can) 4.4
Coors Lite (silver can) 4.1
Miller Genuine Draft (black can) 2.8
Coors (gold can) 0.1
It was evident that the color of the can directly correlates to
the average suckpoint, except for Coors which was pretty much
determined to suck at any point.
It is to be hoped that you will consider re-designing your MGD
cans. All beer drinkers that are not smart enough to keep their beer
in the shade will thank you.
Sincerely,
Bradley Lee
Beer-drinker
Return to table of contents
From: AJUNDE at ccmail.monsanto.com
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 14:47:19 -0600
Subject: A good beer drinker's story! - Part 2
- ---------------------------- Forwarded with Changes ---------------------------
From: ALLEN J UNDERDOWN at MONSL404
Date: 10/29/96 10:34AM
To: homebrew at aob.org at INTERNET
Subject: A good beer drinker's story!
- ---------------------------- Forwarded with Changes ---------------------------
From: MICHAEL J KOZIATEK at MONSL404
Date: 10/29/96 9:24AM
To: brian.dreyer at mokcmtgate.sprint.com at INTERNET
To: rekstrom at kgordon.com at INTERNET
To: skobel at cerner.com at INTERNET
To: 71062.1117 at compuserve.com at INTERNET
To: STEVEN J KLEIN at MONCMIS2
To: KELLY N STEARNS
To: JIGAR K GANDHI
To: ALLEN J UNDERDOWN
Subject: A good beer drinker's story!
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_____________________________________________________________
I have a friend that works for Miller Brewing in Milwaukee and
she knew about the letter sent in by Bradley Lee. She sent me the
Miller response and it appears below. She says they have had a lot of
fun with this guys letter.
Enjoy.
___________________________________________________________
Dear Bradley Lee,
Thank you for your letter and your concern about the MGD can
color as it relates to premature warming of the contents. Like you,
we at Miller Beer take beer drinking very seriously. To that end, we
have taken your letter and subsequent experiment under serious
consideration. Outlined below are our findings and solution to your
problem. May we add that we have had similar letters from other
loyal beer drinkers, mostly from the Southern United States.
First, let us congratulate you on your findings. Our analysis
tends to agree with yours regarding Coors. It certainly does suck at
about any temperature.
Now, it was our intentions when redesigning the MGD can to
create better brand identity and brand loyalty. Someone in marketing
did some kind of research and determined we needed to redesign the
can. You will be pleased to know, we have fired that idiot and he is
now reeking havoc at a pro-gun control beer manufacturer. The design
staffer working in cahoots with the marketing idiot was also
down-sized.
However, once we realized this mistake, to undo it would have
been even a bigger mistake. So, we took some other actions. From our
market research, we found a difference between Northern beer drinker
and Southern beer drinkers.
Beer drinkers in the South tend to drink slower than beer
drinkers in the North. We are still researching why that is. Anyway,
at Miller Beer, it was never our intentions to have someone take more
than 2.5 minutes to enjoy one of our beers. We pride ourselves in
creating fine, smooth, quick drinking beers and leave the making of
sissy, slow sipping beers to that Sam guy in Boston.
However, it is good to know that you feel our Miller Lite can
last as long as 6 minutes. However, may we suggest in the future you
try consuming at least two in that time frame.
From your letter, we had our design staff work 'round the clock
to come up with a solution that would help not just MGD but all our
fine Miller products.
We hope you have recently noticed our solution to your problem.
We found that the hole in the top of the can was not big enough for
quick consumption.
So, we have now introduced the new "Wide Mouth" cans. We hope
this will solve all your problems. Might I also suggest that if you
want to get the beer out of the can even faster, you can poke a hole
on the side near the bottom, hold your finger over it, open the can,
tip it to your mouth and then pull your finger off the hole. This is
a common way to drink beer at parties and impress your friends. This
technique is known as "shot-gunning".
You should like the name.
Again, thank you for your letter and bring to our attention that
there might be other beer drinkers taking more that 2.5 minutes to
drink our beers. Let me assure you that I am have our advertising
department work on campaign to solve this problem, too.
Sincerely,
Tom B. Miller
Public Relations
Miller Brewing Co.
P.S. And remember, at Miller Beer we do favor gun control, too.
So please use two hands when firing.
Return to table of contents
From: RUSt1d? <rust1d at li.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 15:54:23 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Secondary Carbonation
>Yesterday I racked an IPA into the carboy after a 4 day ferment (1056).
>Compared to my previous efforts, all brown/dark ales, there was quite a bit
>of carbonation. Is there such a thing as 'normal' carbonation in the primary
>(or secondary), or is this a sign of future problems i.e., overcarbonation
>in the bottle. The only difference in my methodology was to put the primary
>in a tub with water, towels, and frozen 20 0z soda bottles (3), rather then
>let it sit on the floor at room temp.
The colder the brew is while fermenting, the more carbonation it will hold.
The following chart was compiled by Dave Draper and shows the co2 in
solution at varying temperatures. As you can see the higher the temp
the less co2.
Temp Temp
(degC) Vol. CO2 (degC) Vol. CO2
- ------ -------- ------ --------
0 1.7 12 1.12
2 1.6 14 1.05
4 1.5 16 0.99
6 1.4 18 0.93
8 1.3 20 0.88
10 1.2 22 0.83
This should be taken into consideration when adding priming sugar for
bottling. See DDrapers' article on priming on his web site at:
http://audio.apana.org.au/ddraper/beer.html
I have included a priming sugar calculator in my HBRCP that uses Daves
formulas and calculations and have found it to be the only way to
prime bottles. Many Tanks Dave.
How come every other post to the HBD has been someone not talking about
brewing, but complaining about the subject content of the HBD? Sunday I
got 14 HBD e-mailings of which 12 were complaints about something. (That
was a rhetorical question, please don't post an answer). And leave Al alone.
He's been here before you started brewing and will probably be here when
brewing is your passed fad.
If i'm not drinking it, i'm thinking it.
Verde
John Varady http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady/index.html
Boneyard Brewing Co. "The HomeBrew Recipe Calculating Program"
"Ale today, Gone tomorrow."
Return to table of contents
From: Peter Ensminger <ensmingr at npac.syr.edu>
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 15:51:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [none]
Greetings,
I am interested in beginning a thread on the Beer-Lambert Law (often
called Beer's Law), a topic which has been discussed fairly recently in
Brewing Techniques and elsewhere See:
< http://www.brewingtechniques.com/brewingtechniques/beerslaw index.html >
It seems to me there is no consensus among brewers (or homebrewers)
about the applicability of the Beer-Lambert Law to beer.
For those of you who don't know or have forgotten, Beer's Law says that
each molecule of a dissolved pigment absorbs the same fraction of light
which is incident upon it. The related Beer-Lambert Law says that the
fraction of incident radiation absorbed is proportional to the number of
absorbing molecules. The Beer-Lambert Law is often stated mathematically
as:
A = log(Io/I) = ecl
where A is absorbance, a dimensionless number; Io is the irradiance of
incident energy; I is the irradiance of transmitted energy; e is the molar
extinction coeficient (1/(mol*cm); c is the pigment concentration (mol/L);
l is the pathlength of radiation through the sample cell (typically, 1
cm).
Why is the Beer-Lambert Law important to brewers? Basically, because
absorbance measurements are used to describe the darkness (or color) of
beer. Interestingly, it has been claimed by George Fix, Ray Daniels and
others that beer (the beverage) does not obey Beer-Lambert (the law).
Countering this claim, several contributors to Brewing Techniques have
claimed that Beer does indeed obey the Beer-Lambert Law. I do not have
access to all these articles, particularly Ray Daniel's original Brewing
Techniques article and George Fix's original exegesis about beer and the
Beer-Lambert law. However, the on-line materials by Miles Snow and
Alisdair Boraston (see URL above), both of which claim that beer does
indeed obey the Beer-Lambert Law, seem very convincing.
Have George Fix and Ray Daniels recanted? If not, perhaps they could
explain WHY beer does not obey the Beer-Lambert Law. I can think of three
possible reasons which spectroscopists commonly encounter (but can correct
for):
1. Light scattering, which leads to an over-estimate of A (absorbance).
To me, this seems likely in beer (particularly homebrew) since there may
be suspended particles or gas bubbles which scatter light.
2. Fluorescence, which leads to an under-estimate of A. To me, this
seems unlikely to make a major contribution in beer.
3. Sieve Effect, which leads to an underestimate of A. To me, this also
seems unlikely.
Perhaps Mr. Fix and Mr. Daniels could be encouraged to give their views.
Cheers!
Peter A. Ensminger
256 Greenwood Place
Syracuse, NY 13210
315-478-6024
ensmingr at npac.syr.edu
Return to table of contents
From: Mike Donald <mpd at plaza.ds.adp.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 13:06:57 PST
Subject: re: Killer Chiller Question
[Wade Hutchison writes:]
Hello, all - this is my first post to the digest. I'm an avid homebrewer who
has been extract brewing for the last 8 years or so, and am just getting ready
to move up to all-grain, along with some friends of mine. I'm fascinated by
the
discussion on Wort chillers, and thought I'd add my 2 centimes. I come at this
from a technical perspective, as I am a Chemical Engineer, and this kind of
heat exchange stuff is pretty basic engineering.
First, some comments on previous posts:
>From: Derek Lyons <elde at hurricane.net>
>Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 19:39:17 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: re: Killer Chiller Question
>
>At 12:40 PM 10/24/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>On Thu, 24 Oct 1996, Derek Lyons wrote:
>>
>>> If the water exiting your chiller is cold, then your chiller is not
>>> functioning. The water should be *warm*, indicating that it has indeed
>>> picked up heat while flowing thru the chiller.
>>>
Clearly, this is _not_ true. If the cold temperature out is very close to the
cold temperature in, that just means that the amount of water being sent
through he cooler is probably much larger than it needs to be. If there is a
temperature difference between the cooling water and the wort, there will
be heat transferred.
>>
>>It must be working, since the temperature is is down to 70 degrees in
>>about 20 minutes.
>>
>
>Then you are using far far too much water if your outlet temp hardly rises.
>
Agreed
>>> >
>>> >So, what do you gain from running the inlet to the bottom of the coil?
>>> >water conservation, you can slow the water flow down and still chill.
>>> >(say that three times fast:)
>>> >
>>>
>>> Nope, you lose overall, because the coldest part of the chiller remains in
>>> contact with the coldest part of the wort. Any water savings is illusory.
>>
This is only true if the wort is absolutely unstirred. Assuming the water temp
is always at least 10 deg. below the wort, you will continue to get reasonable
heat transferred.
>>I guess I have to disagree, look at the way a counter-flow chiller
>>works. The cold water in from the fawcet, contacts the coldest part
>>of the wort first and migrates to the hot wort in.
>>
>
>You have it exactly backwards. It encounters the coldest wort first
>*because the wort it first encounters has already traveled the whole length
>of the chiller*. The reason a counterflow chiller is *called* a counterflow
>chiller is because the chilling fluid flows *COUNTER* (I.E. against the flow
>of) to the chilled fluid.
>
Correct - a counterflow heat exchanger has the hot fluid inlet and the cold
fluid outlet at the same end. This produces the largest _average_
difference in temperature over the length of the chiller.
Although the temperature difference is important in heat exchange, there are
two other factors that effect the rate of heat transfer. The easiest one to
get a handle on is the area available for heat transfer. For an immersion
chiller, this translates to building the largest coil that you can immerse
in your wort. It also means that if you are building a coiled chiller, you
should space the coils a reasonable distance apart, so that the entire
circumference of the tube, along the entire length is in contact with the
wort, not with another part of the tube.
That being said, the final factor that is often overlooked in these chiller
designs, is that the heat transfer is affected by a series of resistances
that combine to form a heat-transfer coefficient. The primary resistances
for a simple tube-type heat exchanger is the wall of the exchanger, and the
fluid film resistance both inside and outside of the tube. Heat (energy)
has to flow through each of these resistances in series, so that if one of
them is very large, then the overall heat transfer will be slowed. The wall
of the tube
resistance has to do with the type of metal used for its constuction. Since
the standard for homebrewing seems to be Copper, which has a high
conductivity, and thus a low resistance, that should be fine. For an
immersion chiller, the water flowing on the inside of the tube has a very
thin film if it's flowing rapidly enough, so that resistance should be
small. The problem comes with the outside of the tube where the wort is
just sitting there, with some possible natural convection going on. Here
the film can be relatively thick, and there can be a high resistance to heat
transfer.
The obvious solution is that you _must_ agitate the wort in some way to
achieve high rates of heat transfer Now I know that you don't want aeration
in the wort, but you can still mix the fluid without aeration - look into
using an impeller type mixer, and run it at low RPM. Any amount of forced
convection (stirring) in the wort will improve the heat transfer over
natural convection. Another added bounus is that you no longer have to
worry about the direction of flow in your chiller coil, since if the wort is
considered "well mixed" it
should be the same temperature at all points. Like I agreed with before, if
you don't want to mix your wort, the coldest part of the coils should be at
the bottom of the vessel to get the largest _average_ temperature difference
across the coil.
Questions? Comments? Feel free to email me!
-----wade
Wade Hutchison, College Engineer
College of Engineering, Bucknell University
- -------------------------------------------
whutchis at bucknell.edu
http://www.eg.bucknell.edu/~whutchis
Return to table of contents
From: aesoph at ncemt1.ctc.com (Aesoph, Michael)
Date: 29 Oct 96 16:21:51 CDT
Subject: DME Vendors.........
Dear Collective:
Does anyone out there have a list of vendors of bulk (cheap) dry malt
extract that will sell to home brewers? I did some looking a while back,
but I can't find my list. I think I found some at $50.00 for 33lbs or so
- - that's only $1.50 a pound.
==================================================
Michael D. Aesoph Associate Engineer
==================================================
Return to table of contents
From: Mike Donald <mpd at plaza.ds.adp.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 13:22:33 PST
Subject: Poor ferments
Michel Pitre <michelp at videotron.ca> writes:
Hi all,
I started a brew some times ago and the fermentation doesn't seems to be
active.
Here's what I did.
96/09/15:
I boil 45 minutes
- 1.5 kg (3.3#) cans of hopped malt extract (Munton&Fison, Special
anniversary premium ale.)
- 1.5 kg of powdered malt extract (instead of sugar)
- 2 gallons of spring water.
I add about 20g to 40g (don't remember) of goldings hop. And boil 10
minutes more.
Put all this in a primary (with a little filtering thrue a strainer),
filling with spring water to obtain 5 gallons.
Given gravity 1.045
96/09/16: Put the yeast in the pail. The yeast was expired, but I saw
it only after putting it in the pail...
The fermentation starts, I stop worrying. After 2-3 days, the
fermentation stops, I restarts worrying...
96/09/22: The gravity is 1.020 since a couple of days, I transfer the
brew to a secondary carboy and added another batch of yeast.
Fresh this time.
After 2-3 days, the fermentation slowly restarts, but stays really slow.
96/10/05: 1.020, 96/10/12: 1.017, 96/10/19: 1.014, 96/10/24: 1.014
The fermentation seems complete, but if I bottle at this gravity, I'm
afraid of possibly exploding bottles...
This evening, I taste it just to know if it is lost.
It smells like beer. It have a fairly amber look.
It got a little taste that I think can be attributes to the yeast or need
to be aged.
What can I do ???
Thanks in advance.
Michel Pitre
Return to table of contents
From: Mike Donald <mpd at plaza.ds.adp.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 14:02:59 PST
Subject: Counterflow Wort Chiller
kbjohns at escape.com (Ken ) writes:
Some comments about the wort chiller test run by Dan Morley and submitted to
HBD
1 I assume Dan meant an immersion chiller, not counterflow that he tested.
Whether the cooling water enters the top or the bottom is critical with a
counterflow chiller, not an immersion chiller.
2. A quality counterflow chiller will cool 5 gals in 8 - 10 mins and get the
wort to within 2-5 degrees of cooling water temp using about 30 gals of
cooling water
3. A counterflow will cool each ounce of water in about 3 seconds,
maximizing cold break, giving cleaner, clearer beer.
>I have been following the discussion regarding flow input on counter flow
>chillers with much interest.
>
>Both sides seem to have valid points.
>
>Dan's results
>Here are the results from cooling my wort with 1) the cold water entering
>the top coil first and 2) the cold water entering the bottom coil first.
- - -My wort chiller is 25 ft 3/8" copper coil
- - -The coils are spaced about 1" apart
- - -Volume of both worts at time of cooling was 24 liters
- - -My water supply temp was 44 deg. F
- - -The cold water supply was turned on full for the duration of both coolings.
(this was the only way to keep the flow rate constant)
- - -The lid was on during cooling. (except where chiller input/output is)
TOP BOTTOM
Batch 1 Batch 2
Time Temp. Temp.
0:00 206 206 (no stirring)
5:00 138 138 (no stirring)
10:00 100 102 (no stirring)
15:00 88 84 (no stirring)
15:00-15:30 stirred
18:00 84 84
20:00 80 80
20:00-20:30 srirred
23:00 74 74
23:00-23:30 stirred
26:00 68 68
26:00-26:30 stirred
28:00 64 64
Ken
Precision Brewing Systems URL http://www.wp.com/HOSI/pbscat.html
Custom Manufacturer of Advanced Homebrewing Equipment
Return to table of contents
From: Rob Kienle <rkienle at interaccess.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:09:39 -0500
Subject: 3-Vessel Brewing Comparisons
Charles Burns asks...
>> Would it be possible for you to post, or send via email, a summary of what
you've found. Those of us currently contemplating the investment would really
appreciate it a bunch (you did a lot of hard work). <<
Okay, Charley, here you go: my observations thus far regarding a
3-vessel system, the only caveats being that I obviously have not tried
using any of these and have only some manufacturer's input and a slowly
growing amount of user input to go on thus far. If anyone who makes
these systems reads this and disagrees with my opinions or if any
brewers have any experience with them first hand, feel utterly free to
jump in and tell me where I'm wrong (or right)!
The pico Brewing System: conventional/non-RIMS, 3 reconditioned kegs on
separate stands, pump-driven (2 included), 3 thermometers. I've had
contact with several users of this system who swear by it. Pluses: seems
superior to many others due to simplicity of design and attractive
price. Pump circulation an obvious choice over gravity, 3-stand
configuration seems convenient for use and storage. I'm told the false
bottoms fit well. Minuses: spec sheet says the thermometers are 1",
which might be a bit small, and I've not confirmed appropriateness of
their placement. Sparge adapter is something akin to a shower head,
rather than a rotating wand or circular tube, not sure if that matters.
The same 3-stand configuration that works under space constraints also
may make recirculation less convenient than fixed system where set tubes
run in/out of the mash tun. I wonder if this invites spillage or
hot-side aeration. Recirculation seems an obvious requirement to clear
the sparge or mix the grains during temp adjustments. Anyone with time
to add any extra pipes and fittings, however, can surely overcome this
drawback with ease.
The PBS System (Precision Brewing Systems): conventional/non-RIMS, 3
stainless-steel vessels, gravity fed, 3 thermometers. Pluses: the biggie
is real 304 stainless brew kettles, not reconditioned kegs. Appears very
well designed in terms of fittings and positioning; the system "fits"
together as a unit, which may make recirculation easier (the plus) but
also probably means setting it up in one spot and leaving it (somewhat
of a minus, though not a huge one). Don't know how big the thermometers
are, but they're rated accurate to 1 degree. A "spinning sparger" seems
like a really nice touch. Minus (a biggie for me): gravity feed on the
standard system. I hasten to point out, however, that various pumps,
RIMS adapters, sight glasses, etc., are offered as options for this
system and may make it about the most adaptable unit I've seen. Priced
competitive to pico but may be a higher quality unit as-is, except for
the gravity operation. May therefore ultimately cost more if optional
pumps (a must in my opinion), etc. are added as options, though the
final result would surely mean a nicely individualized system.
BITOA Brewing System: conventional/non-RIMS, 3 stainless-steel vessels,
gravity fed, 2 thermometers. Pluses: very similar to the PBS System,
though priced slightly higher. Very well designed configuration, so long
as you can handle 3 tiers in your basement or garage. Attractive design
with copper sparging ring, tube to boiler extended to avoid aeration
problems. Minuses: that ol' gravity thing again. I don't know about most
people, but my basement ceiling is only about 6.5 feet tall and I just
can't fit 3 15-gallon pots in there stacked on top of each other. Like
the PBS System, BITOA also offers various options that can customize the
unit quite nicely, though also adding cost.
Penquat Brew Tree: conventional/non-RIMS, 3 kegs, gravity fed, 2
thermometers. Pluses: These guys have really got the gravity thing
figured out. The big feature with this system is the rack that is used
to stack up the kegs, utilizing an actual pulley system for raising the
mash tun to proper height! Minuses: there's no way I can fit this baby
into my house without my fiance starting to scream! For all you outdoor
brewmasters, however, I'm sure the Penquat will make you the envy of
your neighbors.
SABCO Brew Magic: RIMS system, 3 kegs, pump driven, 3 thermometers,
automatic, electronic temperature control. Pluses: obviously the
Cadillac of home or pilot brewing systems. So long as you believe in the
viability or need for a RIMS-based system, I don't think anyone can go
wrong with this one. Extremely well designed, permanently mounted on a
rolling steel frame, digital readouts of mash temperature, walk-away
automation. Who could ask for anything more? The only minus: price. Brew
Magic runs about $3000, easily twice what any of the other systems
(without options!) cost. Still, the sheer engineering of the thing and
the ability to set the mash and walk away, knowing your temperatures are
going to stay put within 1 degree, are pretty impressive commodities at
any price.
What I don't know about these systems is their true ease of operation
and consistency, and I welcome anyone's comments (either here or in
private email) regarding extraction rates, consistency, hot side
aeration problems, etc. I'm sure that anyone looking for a 3-vessel
system will not be disappointed with any of the ones I've mentioned.
Unless there are real efficiency problems with any of them (which I
doubt), it's really all a matter of personal preference and
subjectivity. Personally, I am most interested in time efficiency (not
messing around with a lot of hoses), repeatability (vis a vis making
commercial-quality beer), and convenience (where can I set the thing
up?). For these reasons I am probably leaning toward the pico or an
"adapted" PBS system unless someone can convince me that the RIMS
capabilities of the SABCO are really worth the price point. On the other
hand, I may just buy SABCO 'cause it's so d*** pretty!
Good luck to all in search of the perfect pilot plant!
Rob Kienle
Chicago, IL
rkienle at interaccess.com
Return to table of contents
From: Larry Johnson <Maltster at ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 14:15:38 -0800
Subject: Carbonation question / how hard to boil / civility
Michael has carbonation problems using 1.25 cups of DME to prime. He also
mentioned the trouble started since moving the fermentation area to a
basement . Just my humble opinion, but:
1. DME takes longer to carbonate than corn sugar.
2. The basement may be cooler than the previous priming environment.
There may be other factors, but these two sorta popped into my mind when I
read his post.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Steven wanted to know how hard to boil and was correctly told to boil hard.
Reasons given were also correct with one addition - you want to drive off
the dreaded DMS (or one of its precursors, rather) that can make your beer
taste like creamed corn.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I, too, long for the days when this was one of the last bastions of civil
discourse on the 'net. Let's face it; egos intrude on everything,
eventually. No matter where you live, where you work, what you do for fun;
eventually the a**holes show up and loud-mouth all the nice people into
leaving.
Dick Dunn says, "Too bad about Boulder...". I hope we're not soon saying,
"Too bad about the HBD...."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Way down south they had a jubilee,
Them Georgia folks, they had a jamboree.
They were drinking homebrew from a wooden cup,
The folks that were dancin' there got all shook up.
Chuck Berry - "Rock 'n Roll Music"
Larry Johnson / Athens, GA / Maltster at ix.netcom.com
Come and see the Web page at http://www.netcom.com/~maltster
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Return to table of contents