---

   FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
        Mike Donald, Digest Janitor-in-training
        Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!

Contents:
  curacao orange peel ((Dan.Nelson))
  Storing Wort Chiller (Mark Riley)
  Sam Adams Triple Bock ((Aesoph, Michael))
  Re: Perpetual Wort Chiller thread (lheavner at tcmail.frco.com)
  What is 'Amber' malt extrat ("Kevin S. DeWitt")
  Think Zinc (Hugh Graham)
  Re: Alpha-amyalse & Calcium ((Bill Giffin))
  Footnote to Using Bleach in Wort Chiller (Mark Riley)
  Flame Cabinets (Scott Dornseif)
  Oxynator Replacement Tanks ("Houseman, David L")
  Cleaning Corny kegs. (u-brew-it)
  LactoCaps (u-brew-it)
  Protein Rest using Highly Modified Malt (Charles Burns)
  Squeezin dem grains (Steve Alexander)
  1272 vs 1056 ("Craig Rode")
  Cooler efficiency (Alan Stevens)
  Torrified Wheat and Invert summed up (Nathan Moore)
  [none] ()
  [none] ()
  RE: sparging or not ("Bridges, Scott")
  Comments on simple aeration method (smurman at best.com)
  [none] ()
  RE: Alpha-amyalse & Calcium (Steve Alexander)
  [none] ()
  [none] ()
  [none] ()
  [none] ()
  [none] ()
  [none] ()
  [none] ()
  [none] ()
  [none] ()
  [none] ()
  [none] ()
  RE: What's the best way to clean out a (dirty) Cornelius KEG (Richard Gardner)
  Re: Spaten Optimator (hollen at vigra.com)
  RE: High temp fermentation ((Brian Pickerill))
  Cutting enamel pots (Dave Greenlee)
  violent starter ("Robert DeNeefe")
  Propane to Gas (CoAir at aol.com)
  RE: Spaten Optimator ((George De Piro))
  Hops Aroma Question ("John Penn")

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: nelson at muck.isgs.uiuc.edu (Dan.Nelson)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 13:32:54 -0600
Subject: curacao orange peel

Can anyone give me a mail order (or Illinois) source 
for curacao orange peel?  I've seen this question here 
before, but have been unable to find the answer in the 
archives.  I'll summarize and post personal replies. 
 
Thanks, Dan 

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From: Mark Riley <mriley at netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 11:36:15 -0800
Subject: Storing Wort Chiller

Hello HBD'ers: 
 
Would it be a bad idea to store a copper wort chiller filled with bleach = 
solution?  Could there be any adverse chemical reactions?  I wouldn't = 
think so considering there are generally small amounts of chlorine in = 
our drinking water, but chemistry is a distant memory for me... 
 
What other methods could one use to prevent unfriendly beasties from = 
growing inside the tubing? 
 
TIA, 
 
- -Mark-=20 
Sacramento, CA 
 

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From: aesoph at ncemt1.ctc.com (Aesoph, Michael)
Date: 07 Nov 96 15:14:17 EST
Subject: Sam Adams Triple Bock

Dear Collective: 
 
 
 
 Anyone out there know a recipe for a Sam Adams type Triple Bock?  I've 
already tried the Cat's Meow and some of the easier places.  Thanks in 
advance......... 
 
 
 
================================================== 
 
        Michael D. Aesoph                Associate Engineer 
 
================================================== 
 

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From: lheavner at tcmail.frco.com
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 13:53:18 -0600
Subject: Re: Perpetual Wort Chiller thread

This is a Mime message, which your current mail reader 
may not understand. Parts of the message will appear as 
text. To process the rest, you will have to use a Mime 
compatible mail reader. Contact your vendor for details. 
 
- --IMA.Boundary.847397291 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII 
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part 
 
     Brian Krause asks what water flow will be most efficient. 
 
     How do you define efficiency?  Do you want to minimize cooling water 
     usage?  Minimize cooling time?  You already have the copper coil 
     immersion cooler.  To minimize water usage, throttle the water to 
     minimize the temperature difference between the water exiting the coil 
     and the wort in your kettle.  To minimize cooling time, run as much 
     water as possible.  You could also build another coil to immerse in an 
     ice - saltwater mixture to further cool the cooling water before it 
     enters the wort chiller.  And, of course, be sure to gently agitate 
     the wort with the chiller or a mixer to avoid the dreaded stagnant 
     boundary layer where the wort contacts the coil.  To further speed the 
     cooling, put your kettle in a tub filled with an ice - saltwater mix 
     and make sure you stir the ice/water and the wort while using your 
     immersion chiller. 
 
     When I chose a wort cooler, I considered 1)How much will it cost for 
     the materials to build it, 2)How easy will it be to clean/sanitize, 
     3)How easy and costly will it be to use, and 4)How fast will it cool 
     my wort? 
 
     Counterflow chillers will require less copper tubing but special 
     fittings (which aren't free) to achieve the same cooling at the same 
     rate.  Counterflow requires a valve on the kettle or starting a 
     siphon.  Immersion chillers are easier to clean and sanitize.  I got a 
     good deal on 50' of 3/8" copper tubing and didn't relish the idea of 
     cleaning and assembling a counterflow chiller.  If I was doing 10 
     gallon batches or larger, I might have had a different opinion, 
     especially after hearing so many people on the digest who use 
     counterflow chillers claim that their cleaning/sanitizing procedures 
     are easy and effective. 
 
     Regards, 
 
     Lou Heavner 
     <lheavner at frmail.frco.com> 
- --IMA.Boundary.847397291-- 

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From: "Kevin S. DeWitt" <dewitt at interramp.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 15:15:15 -0500
Subject: What is 'Amber' malt extrat

I was ordering amber malt extract for a recipe that 
also used crystal malt.  The supplier did not have 
amber malt extract in stock, but said I could 
'make' amber by useing pale malt extract and a lb. 
of crystal.  Is that what amber malt extract is? 
Would I still use the 1/2 lb. of crystal malt that 
the recipe originally required? 
 
TIA 
- -- 
 Kevin S. DeWitt            Actium 
 dewitt at interramp.com       101 North Meadows Dr 
 1-888-504-8048 x5006       Suite 113 
 http://www.actium.com      Wexford, PA  15090 

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From: Hugh Graham <hugh at lamar.ColoState.EDU>
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 13:19:44 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Think Zinc

 
Summary:  Zinc supplementation in fermenting wort may be beneficial 
          in Colorado.  Why? 
 
A couple of brewers in Colorado (one brews lagers, the other ales) have 
recently told me that zinc supplementation of water in this area is highly 
beneficial to yeast growth.  Apparently, addition of zinc to the 
fermentation stage increases the yeast growth rate significantly.  This is 
probably a Good Thing, reducing primary fermentation times and making yeast 
propagation more efficient.  Effects on beer taste are reported by one of 
the brewers to be very positive. 
 
Zinc is an essential micronutrient for all biological growth and is a 
cofactor in many enzyme systems, but very a low level is required.  The 
level of supplementation may be in the 1 to 4 ppm (mg/L) range. 
Too much zinc may also inhibit yeast growth and cause a metallic taste. 
 
Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide states that malt _usually_ provides all the 
zinc required.  But, the water on the Front Range of Colorado is apparently 
unusually low in zinc content (a rather uninformative '<20 ppm' on my water 
analysis), possibly explaining the need for supplementation. 
 
Questions for learned beer folk: 
    o   Can anyone confirm a recommended concentration range of zinc in wort? 
 
    o   Does zinc play any role in the mash?  Would supplementation 
          at this stage of the process offer additional benefits? 
          (I'm wondering if zinc is a required cofactor for amylases, 
           beta-glucanases, proteinases, phytases, etc.) 
 
    o   Can too much zinc be toxic or inhibitory to yeast growth? 
           Is this inhibitory level above the taste threshold? 
 
Extra credit: 
    o   Zinc dietary supplement pills typically contain 1000mg of 'zinc'. 
         Are such pills a suitable source of supplementary zinc for brewing? 
         Are the other components in these pills unsuitable for beer 
          (are there any preservatives?)? 

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From: bill-giffin at juno.com (Bill Giffin)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 16:28:40 cst
Subject: Re: Alpha-amyalse & Calcium

Top of the afternoon. 
 
How much calcium is required is the question.  George Fix states that an 
amount of 50-100 ppm is about right.  With the Pilsen beers being brewed 
with about 5 ppm of calcium how is that possible? 
 
How can I get good extract without adding calcium when my water has less 
then 5 ppm of calcium.  Please don't tell the mash.  If the mash doesn't 
know and it still works please talk about calcium in whisphers.  I just 
brewed a blonde doppel bock with an extraction of 34 points per pound per 
gallon and I added no calcium to the wort.  I brought the pH to 5.3 with 
an 30 min acid rest. 
 
How much calcium is enough??? 
 
 
Bill 
 
 

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From: Mark Riley <mriley at netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 12:35:05 -0800
Subject: Footnote to Using Bleach in Wort Chiller

Hello again HBD'ers: 
 
As chance would have it, I remembered that I had a book on chemical = 
compounds *after* I had posted my previous article on storing a copper = 
wort chiller filled with bleach solution...  ;-( 
 
Anyhoo, the book says that there exists something called cuprous = 
chloride (CuCl) which is poisonous.  It says this compound can be = 
produced by reducing copper chloride (CuCl2).  Could these compounds = 
form if the wort chiller is stored at room temperature? 
 
Maybe it isn't such a bright idea after all (good thing I haven't tried = 
this yet...) 
 
Perhaps another solution might be used instead?  TSP perhaps? 
 
- -Mark- 
Sacramento, CA 
 

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From: Scott Dornseif <roundboy at wwa.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 16:00:01 -0600
Subject: Flame Cabinets

From: jay at ro.com (Jay Reeves) 
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 08:26:50 -0600 
Subject: Re: CP fillers & Flame Cabinets 
 
Jay sez in part: 
 
>>I'm thinking of building a "Flame Cabinet" to store my oxygen tank 
>>and propane tanks in.  They've been in the garage out in the open 
>>and I've been getting a little parinoid of late about leaks 
>>and collecting gases  Can anyone give me any suggestions or cautions other 
>>than "don't store them inside"? 
>> 
>>                        -Jay Reeves 
 
 
O2 and flammables in the same cabinet? Red flag to me. Maybe Someone can 
suggest a
Flame cabinet to house the HBD in??? 
 
 
Scott Dornseif 
RoundBoy at wwa.com 
Chicago 

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From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 16:17:07 -0500
Subject: Oxynator Replacement Tanks

Mike asks "This question has been asked before on the HBD,  but a search 
of back issues reveals no answers:  is there a cheaper  source for 
Oxynator 
replacement canisters other than Liquid Bread?  At 12 bucks a pop, 
they're rather expensive." 
 
Look at Sears, Heckingers, Home Depot and other places and you'll find 
the same tank for about $7. 
 
 
 
 

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From: u-brew-it <ubrewit at csra.net>
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 16:19:30 -0800
Subject: Cleaning Corny kegs.

Raymond, 
You wrote: 
 
Subject: What's the best way to clean out a (dirty) Cornelius KEG 
 
Look at www.vigra.com 
 
This site has a ton of info about cleaning "corny" kegs, plus other 
info. 
 
Kurt A. Meyer 
ubrewit at csra.net 
www.digidime.com/ubrewit/ 
 

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From: u-brew-it <ubrewit at csra.net>
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 15:44:23 -0800
Subject: LactoCaps

Dave in Indy; 
You asked where to get: 
> get a product called LactoCaps (?), a culture of lactobacillus 
> freeze-dried and filled into gelatin capsules for ease of use. 
 
Contact "Herbal Remedies" (Shameless plug, but they are friends of mine) 
(706) 854-997 
 
They carry the pure lactobacillium in cap form under the name of 
"Acidophilus" (acid loving).  You can use them in your beer and for your 
own health to aid in digestion. 
 
They accept major credit cards and ship. As of today they do have them 
in stock. 
 
Good luck, and good brewing, 
 
Kurt A. Meyer 
ubrewit at csra.net 
http://www.digidime.com/ubrewit/ 
 

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From: Charles Burns <cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us>
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 13:29:14 -0800
Subject: Protein Rest using Highly Modified Malt

I have decided to try an experiment, based on another poster's 
experience with protein rest. I want my lighter ales to be as clear as 
possible without filtering and without waiting for a few months. I 
always use irish moss (1 tsp in 5 gal, 15 min boil) and I always use 
gelatin (1 tsp, 5 gal, secondary fermentation). Right now I've gotta 
wait about 3-4 weeks before beer really clears nicely - in the fridge, 
taking up space in a keg. 
 
So, question - what temperature would be best for the rest (yes, it 
rhymes) using say Hugh Bairds Pale Ale and for how long? My inclination 
is somewhere between 125 and 130F for about 30 minutes. And oh yeah, 
probably very very thick  at  about 24 oz water per pound of malt. 
 
Or am I completely wasting time and energy? Or am I possibly ruining my 
mash by doing this with fully modified malt? 
 
comments from the peanut gallery? 
 
Charley 

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From: Steve Alexander <stevea at clv.mcd.mot.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 16:31:30 -0500
Subject: Squeezin dem grains

 
Charles Capwell asks ... 
 
>What if someone where to take their non-sparged grains, transfer them to a 
>large grain bag, then put them in a fruit press and squeeze as much as 
>possible out of the grains? 
 
Extra lipids extracted, possible staling compounds and poor head formation. 
YMMV, 
SA 

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From: "Craig Rode" <craig.rode at sdrc.com>
Date: 7 Nov 1996 15:28:58 -0600
Subject: 1272 vs 1056

In HBD2267, Larry asks about the difference between the Chico ale yeast and 
the American II.  I am a huge fan of the 1056, and used the 1272 once for a 
brown ale.  I was very pleased with the results.  The 1272 will have more of a 
'nutty' taste than the 1056, which worked great for the brown ale but may not 
be what you are looking for in a SNPA clone.  Attenuation seemed close. 
 
Good luck, 
Craig 
 

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From: Alan Stevens <stevensa at ctt.bellcore.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 16:47:26 -0500
Subject: Cooler efficiency

All this talk about running your cooler at full throttle boggles my 
mind. I have a homemade 30' counterflow cooler that I connect to my 
boiler ( whick is a converted keg). I brew outside, and my water comes 
from a well ( about 150' feet down) and is VERY COLD. I have to throttle 
back my cooler to maintain a decent temperature to start the yeast. Even 
with the water just trickling through, I still have problems keeping the 
temp at or above 65. By the way, the outlet water is VERY HOT. 
 
Of course as it gets colder, the problem gets worse. 
 
just my 2 cents 
 
Al Stevens 

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From: Nathan Moore <moorent at bechtel.Colorado.EDU>
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 14:55:40 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Torrified Wheat and Invert summed up

 Thanks for the replies on my questions on using torrified wheat 
and making invert sugar.  Here is a summary for the rest of you newbies 
and anyone else interested. 
 Torriffied wheat definitly needs to be mashed.  The definition 
of "cooked" means the torrified wheat has already had its starches 
gelatinized so that enzymes can attack them, but it still needs to be 
mashed with pale malt or some other high enzyme grain. 
 On the invert sugar question.  The reason I was planning on inverting 
the demerara was to avoid the cidery flavor that comes from fermenting 
sucrose.  Duffy Toler pointed out that the source of these flavors is 
the invertase enzyme that the yeast produce to break down the sucrose. 
He also points out that the cider effect caused by 1-1.5 lbs of sugar 
should be below the taste threshhold so as long as you don't go 
overboard on the sugar you should be fine.  Therefore, I'm just dumping 
the sugar right into the boil. 
     Nathan Moore 
     Denver, CO 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

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From: "Bridges, Scott" <bridgess at mmsmtp.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 96 16:52:00 PST
Subject: RE: sparging or not

 
 
My old friend Curt writes: 
>I guess I am missing something on this whole "no-sparge" debate. 
>I just read Scott Bridges pro and con (Scott and I know each other 
>from WAY back in college), but I don't think sparging is that 
>timeconsuming, difficult or equipment intensive. 
>Hell, I think on of the neatest things about all-grain brewing is 
>watching the sparging process, especially if you have the Listerman 
>Phil's sparge arm (best $15 I ever spent).  All you need besides that 
>is a bucket with a spigot to hold your hot water.  Sparging is really 
>the transition process where you go from a bucket full of grain to a kettle 
full of wort. 
 
>My questions are: 
>*Why would you WANT to use 30% more grain? (didn't you start 
>all-grain brewing to make better beer & make it cheaper?) 
>*Why mess with a process that has worked well for centuries? 
>*Why waste all of that extra grain and leave all that sugar behind 
>for the bugs in your compost heap? 
>I guess I need to read George Fix's article about no-sparge brewing 
>if I want to fully understand this whole discussion - what magazine 
>was it in anyway??? 
 
I'm not advocating an anti-sparging campaign (Stop the Sparge Madness! or 
Mad Mothers Against Sparging, ok I'll stop now).  Certainly, there is 
nothing wrong with making beer the way its been done lo these many thousands 
of years.  I just like to try different things.  It looks like there are 
some appealing benefits (and some potential benefits, which may or may not 
be real).  There is, to me, an insignificant reason against it.  So it's 
$1-2 more grain per batch, so what?  For now, its an academic discussion on 
my part.  I haven't tried it yet.  Are the benefits worth the additional 
cost?  Possibly, but that's an individual decision.  I haven't even 
formulated my own opinion, so I'm not trying to persuade anyone else.  Will 
a no-sparge process replace conventional sparging?  I don't think so.  Will 
it ever become part of my normal (whatever that is) process?  Who knows? 
 
Again, you don't need to actually waste those residual sugars.  You can 
continue to sparge and use the leftover wort for yeast ranching, or even a 
small beer.  This kind of mitigates the loss. 
 
I do agree, Curt, that participating in the process of brewing (including 
sparging, too) is part of the enjoyment of the hobby.  For me, another 
enjoyable part of the hobby is contemplating and discussing how alternative 
materials and processes will change (and hopefully improve) the flavor of 
the beer, if even marginally.  I guess that's how I was sucked into the RIMS 
hoopla. 
 
FWIW, I don't know if the Fix article was actually published anywhere other 
than here.  It is available from The Brewery in the Library, title "Yummy 
Malt Flavors" or something like that.  As I said, it's pretty brief. 
 
Scott 
Brewing is a journey.  Enjoy the ride. 
 
 
 

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From: smurman at best.com
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 14:23:14 -0800
Subject: Comments on simple aeration method

 
All of this talk of O2 levels got me motivated.  I was going to simply 
drill several holes in the end of the racking tube that I use to 
transfer the cool wort to the primary.  This should provide more 
aeration than my current method.  Can anyone comment on how close to 
optimum O2 level this will give me?  I know it's not as fancy as a 
pump-hospital filter combo, but I like to start simple an build. 
 
SM 

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From: Steve Alexander <stevea at clv.mcd.mot.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 17:44:12 -0500
Subject: RE: Alpha-amyalse & Calcium

 
>How much calcium is required is the question.  George Fix states that an 
 
I did not attempt to answer the question of 'how much'.  Levels as 
high as 50-100 ppm may be (and likely are) desirable for reasons other 
than enzyme stability. I do not have a Ca concentration min for 
alpha-amylase stability under mash conditions, nor do I have a 
trustworthy figure for calcium ion contribution from your malt. 
 
>How can I get good extract without adding calcium when my water has less 
>then 5 ppm of calcium.  Please don't tell the mash.  If the mash doesn't 
>know and it still works please talk about calcium in whisphers.  I just 
 
I speculated in my previous post (perhaps you misread it), that you 
may get good yield in low Ca mashes because the AMY1 (low isoelectric 
point) requires only 1/10th as much calcium for stability as AMY2 ... 
*AND* the AMY1 form of alpha-amylase performs virtually all the 
granule degradation and starch hydrolization (yield producing). AMY2 
is apparently only involved in degrading hydrolysed starches. 
 
>How much calcium is enough??? 
Three glasses of milk a day. 
 
Stevea 

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From: Richard Gardner <rgardner at monarch.papillion.ne.us>
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 21:48:21 -0600 (CST)
Subject: RE: What's the best way to clean out a (dirty) Cornelius KEG

You wrote: 
 
>I noticed that the inside isn't very shiny at all. Seems like oxidation 
>or something. If I take a screwdriver and scrape the inside I see silver. 
>So what is this crap ? Is it oxidation ? How do I get rid of it ? Bleach 
>doesn't work either. 
 
ARGH.  Cruelty to stainless steel.  If you have WWW access (I noticed the 
juno address, so if...), there is a full primer at The Brewery 
(http://alpha.rollanet.org/) by Dion Hollenbeck (also in HBD #1865) that 
covers this topic.   If you don't, let me know and I'll send it to you (I 
know, no attachments with Juno).  In the meantime: 
  1) Do not use Cl- bleach with stainless steel (SS), particularly letting 
it sit.  This will cause chloride pitting at the air/water interface - this 
can be severe enough to corrode a hole through the keg (problem gets worse 
with an increase in temp, but probably not a problem in this case).  This is 
the reason that most folks use an Iodine based sanitizer on SS.  If you look 
at a power plant on the ocean, their cooling piping containing seawater 
(with ~35000 PPM NaCl) are probably going to be a copper alloy (bronze) NOT 
SS just for this reason (plus it is probably cheaper too). 
   2) Ideas to clean.  See if you can find "Barkeepers Friend"(I think 
that's the name)  or similar product - metal cleansers that are oxalic acid 
based which will remove red rust.  Do not use steel wool (will give you lots 
of little bit and pieces of Iron which will rust, and you can't get them all 
out).  If desparate enough to use a metal scrubber, use a stainless steel 
scrubber.  There are also acid baths, but I'd not recommend them unless you 
know what you are doing.  Green scrubbers are what I usually use.  B-brite 
is another option. 
   3) Passivation. SS actually is supposed to oxidize (sort of rust), but 
not red rust.  A thin layer is formed of the things that are added to make 
it stainless (Chromium) preferentially to the Iron in the metal oxidizing 
(red rust) - this is called the passivation layer (molecules thick) and 
protects the metal underneath.   It is possible to remove this layer with 
some cleansers.  If I gave a keg a good scrubbing, I'd fill it with  plain 
water, then empty it and let it dry for a couple of days  before I'd put 
beer in it to allow the passivation layer to reform (gross 
oversimplification here). 
 

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From: hollen at vigra.com
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 96 20:34:32 PST
Subject: Re: Spaten Optimator

>> BRIAN F THUMM writes: 
 
BFT> How can I retain the malty sweetness of the dark Spaten 
BFT> Optimator?  What is it that gives it such a characteristic 
BFT> flavor?  Is it cara-pils? 
 
Well, I am only guessing, but since *the premier* Munich dark lager is 
Spaten Dark Export, and the way Munich dark lagers get the malty 
caremelly flavor is from Munich malt and Spaten Optimator is from the 
same folks......   Well, you guess!! 
 
dion 
 
- -- 
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x164                 Email: hollen at vigra.com 
                                             http://www.vigra.com/~hollen 
Sr. Software Engineer - Vigra Div. of Visicom Labs  San Diego, California 

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From: 00bkpickeril at bsuvc.bsu.edu (Brian Pickerill)
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 08:21:16 -0500 (EST)
Subject: RE: High temp fermentation

>I have brewed a couple of trippels at 80 F with very few higher alcohols 
>and only enough banana and clove to be appropriate to the style.  Both 
>the primary and the secondary of these beers were at 80 F and they were 
>bottle conditioned at 90 F.  Primary fermentation took a week for a 
>trippel with a an O. G. of 1.080.  I feel that the key is that you 
>maintain the temperature at a constant 80 F, if you vary up and down too 
>much that is where the high esters and higher alcohols come from. 
 
Are you still referring to Chimay yeast here? 
 
>Yeast Lab's Canadian yeast requires a higher temperature to reduce the 
>amounts of fruitiness.  I found that using a temperature of 75 F that 
>this yeast produced a much cleaner beer then when fermented at 65 F. 
 
I guess I have always assumed that high temp ferments were to be avoided 
whenever possible.  Lately, according some some posts, it sounds like 
they're ok, but only with the right yeasts (of course) and in some cases, 
with low temp _variation_. 
 
Personally, I've not yet had good temperature control.  I have a spare 
fridge, but not completely a brew fridge, and with no add-on temp 
controler.  I'll probably set up an aquarium heater and water batch setup 
this winter in the garage--the weather in Indiana is cooperating nicely for 
now.  I have had good success brewing weizen in the summer with Wyeast 3068 
(where you want banana and clove of course) when I managed to keep the temp 
_varying_ around 68F.  Specifically, I insulated a plastic fermenter and 
moved it in and out of the fridge during the hot summer.  (I left the 
fermenter out at night where the temp would rise to around 75 by morning. 
Then before work I would put it (insulated) into the fridge where it would 
be at about 63F when I got home in the evenings.)  I ended up with a really 
nice banana clove taste so the high and low temps seemed to balance each 
other well, and there didn't seem to be any ill effects of all the 
variation.  The incredible 3068 krausen seemed to rise more when the beer 
was chilling and fall a bit when the beer was warming at night.  (Newbies: 
Be sure to have a lot of headspace in the fermenter, or use a large 
recieving bucket on your blowoff!) 
 
- --Brian Pickerill, Muncie, IN (Yes, that's my real name _and_ address, but I'm 
  not from here...) 
 
 

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From: Dave Greenlee <daveg at mail.airmail.net>
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 07:28:50 -0600
Subject: Cutting enamel pots

I would like to cut a hole in the side of my enamelwear boiler to add a 
brass spigot.  Being manually inept, I'd like to know beforehand whether 
this is a difficult task to accomplish without taking the risk of 
chipping off chunks of the enamel which are so large that they won't be 
covered with the spigot fittings.  Do I just fire up the ol' hand drill 
with a proper-sized bit, maybe slapping a bit of masking tape over the 
proposed void beforehand, er whut? 
 
Nazdrowie, 
Dave Greenlee 
The Vindicated Major Prendergast 
 
******************************************************* 
*  Major Prendergast's Double Bach Dubbel Doppelbock  * 
*        Extra Specially Bitter Bedlam Brewery,       * 
*       a Texas noncommercial Bozoid singularity      * 
******************************************************* 

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From: "Robert DeNeefe" <rdeneefe at compassnet.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 08:09:12 -0600
Subject: violent starter

This is only my second starter, and the first time I've stepped it up, 
but it is behaving oddly (to me anyway) so I wanted to poll the 
collective consciousness.  I started with ~200ml of ~1.040 wort and 
Wyeast 1056.  It fermented for 2 days with a layer of foam on the 
liquid but not a lot of activity.  This is exactly what happened in my 
last starter and my batch turned out great.  Last night I add ~300ml of 
~1.050 wort so I could prepare my yeast for the higher gravities 
they'll be experiencing in my beer this weekend.  This morning I 
checked it and there was foam in the airlock and residue all over the 
inside of the 750ml bottle I'm using!  Needless to say, my yeasties 
must have had some party last night.  In taking off the airlock to 
clean it, I smelled the starter and it smelled awfully sweet.  Hmmm.... 
 The fermentation temperature was sorta high 70-75 so the smell may 
just be esters, but the extremely active fermentation combined with the 
sweet smell has me a *bit* concerned (not worried mind you - just 
concerned).  So is there some sort of infection (*gasp*) that could 
produce what I've described, or is the active fermentation just a 
result of stepping up already strong yeasties and the sweet smell 
probably just esters from a high temp?  Any sharing of similar 
experiences would be must gratefully appreciated. 
 
 Robert DeNeefe 
 
 

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From: CoAir at aol.com
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 09:08:18 -0500
Subject: Propane to Gas

HI..I've been wanting to brew in the basement by taping into my gas 
line...has anyone converted a cajun cooker type burner to use with nat. gas?? 
What's needed? Is it safe ? Any comments or suggestions would be great 

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From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 08:27:35 -0800
Subject: RE: Spaten Optimator

     Hi! 
 
     Brian asks how he can achieve the maltiness of Spaten Optimator, a 
     dopplebock. 
 
     Plenty of Munich malt (light and dark) is the key.  Decoction mashing 
     is also of prime importance.  Cara-malts are NOT appropriate in more 
     than small quantities.  They will give the beer a caramel flavor, 
     which is fine in a Scotch ale, or even some dopplebocks, but not in an 
     Optimator clone. 
 
     Malt flavor is the result of melanoidins.  Melanoidins are the product 
     of chemical reactions that combine amino acids and sugars.  These 
     reactions occur at high temperature (i.e., 212F, 100C).  They do not, 
     however, occur to a tremendous extent in the boil because of the 
     relatively low concentration of reactants in the aqueous environment. 
 
     That is why decocting is so vital; it provides the correct environment 
     for melanoidin formation.  Munich malt is made in a way that enhances 
     melanoidin formation, too. 
 
     Spaten Optimator is one of the drier dopplebocks.  They achieve this 
     dryness, in part, through the use of highly-roasted malts, which also 
     deepen the color.  It is also well attenuated, which enhances its 
     dryness. 
 
     Low hop rates also increase the impression of maltiness.  As an 
     illustration of this, I recently made a dunkleweizen that had some 
     "technical problems."  The mash was at 145F (63C) forever (read: very 
     fermentable wort), but I then added only 2/3 the intended hops (read: 
     I need more sleep).  Amazingly, the beer tastes properly balanced! 
     This is because my hop rate was based on a projected final gravity of 
     ~1.016, not the 1.007 I actually achieved!  A perfect example of two 
     wrongs making a right! 
 
     Read Darryl Richman's book, _Bock_.  It is very good, and he goes into 
     some detail about the formation of melanoidins during the malting and 
     mashing processes. 
 
     Have fun! 
 
     George "I'll be having an Optimator when I get home" De Piro(Nyack,NY) 

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From: "John Penn" <john_penn at spacemail.jhuapl.edu>
Date: 8 Nov 1996 09:31:22 -0500
Subject: Hops Aroma Question

                       Subject:                               Time:10:18 AM 
  OFFICE MEMO          Hops Aroma Question                    Date:11/8/96 
 
  Thinking about the recent dry-hopping discussions brings up a question.  If 
the CO2 released during primary fermentation "scrubs" away some of the aroma 
from dry-hopping too soon, does the aroma from a late kettle hops addition get 
"scrubbed" away also?  I know that the aroma from dry-hopping is different 
from late kettle additions but how is it different?  Can anyone please explain 
what the reaction is that "scrubs" away the aroma and how I can get a good 
aroma with late kettle additions and with dry-hopping?  TIA. 
  John Penn (Eldersburg, MD) 
 

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