---

   FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
        Mike Donald, Digest Janitor-in-training
        Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!

Contents:
  Wort Chilling (Jim Thomas)
  Wyeast 1098 and stuck ferment (Steve Zabarnick)
  hop slop (Robert McMahon)
  for all brewery. (Antonio Tamburro)
  "Inedible" Corn as an adjunct (D1FKV0W at BATLAN.BELL-ATL.COM)
  Salvage operation (Terry Selba)
  foxx distribution valves ((Jeff Sturman))
  Re: Ca++/AA stability/grist size/efficiency ("David R. Burley")
  oxygenation/aeration ((BAYEROSPACE))
  CO2 Tank (Brendan Oldham)
  Re: FOXX Beverage (Dave Schmidt)
  1056 vs. 1272 ((Steve Adams))
  three hands ("Bryan L. Gros")
  Re: Oxygenation. ("David R. Burley")
  No Sparge -- A Parting Shot (KennyEddy at aol.com)
  Storing Wort Chillers ("Palmer.John")
  re: Mashing specialty grains/Munich (Rob Kienle)
  re: Protein Rest using Highly Modified Malt (Rob Kienle)
  Deschutes Brewery BBP Clone Recipe ((Nicholas Dahl))
  New listener intro (Mike Donald)
  Request extract recipe (Mike Donald)
  [none] ()
  [none] ()
  [none] ()
  [none] ()
  [none] ()
  [none] ()
  [none] ()
  [none] ()
  Cream Stout...... (Vince Mitchell)
  used kegs ("chadb")
  Apology for Mistake (u-brew-it)
  Amber malt exract (u-brew-it)
  Sake & koji ((Calgarey Penn))

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jim Thomas <jim.thomas at telops.gte.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 08:39:01 -0500
Subject: Wort Chilling

All of this discussion about wort chilling and immersion chillers 
got me thinking about an approach that might be worth a try. 
 
Those of you that have pumps for either recirc or RIMS, might 
consider using the pump to recirc ice water through your immersion 
chillers. 
 
In my arrangement, when I get ready to chill, I'll dump 10-20 pounds 
of ice in my Gott cooler (cleaned out from the mash), top with 
water. Then connect the outlet on the cooler to the inlet on the 
pump, connect the outlet from the pump to the inlet on the chiller 
and the outlet from the chiller back into the cooler. (The knee bone 
connected to the leg bone...) 
 
Seems to me this might work pretty well.  Anybody out there do this? 
At the least it'll save on water. 
 
Jim 

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From: Steve Zabarnick <steve at snake.appl.wpafb.af.mil>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 09:44:26 -0500
Subject: Wyeast 1098 and stuck ferment

I recently brewed a 10 gallon batch of all-grain IPA, OG=1.065, and pitched 
a 1.5 liter starter of Wyeast 1098. Fermentation at 62F started slowly (36 
hours) and stopped after a few days. I racked to the secondary and found 
that the gravity was 1.042! 
 
In back issues of HBD (around 1992-93) there was discussion of the three 
strains present in the Whitbread yeast (allegedly the same as 1098). George 
Fix stated that the first strain is a fast starter that is sensitive to 
alcohol levels over 2.5% by weight. As this strain slows the other two 
strains, which are slow starters, take over. 
 
My stuck fermentation occurred at 2.3% alcohol. Thus it appears that the 
first strain died, and the others never took off. 
 
Has anyone else seen this behavior with 1098? 
 
Steve Zabarnick 
Dayton, OH 
 
 

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From: Robert McMahon <rmcmahon at sctcorp.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 09:51:43 -0500
Subject: hop slop

 
Anyone have any success using a sparging bag for hops?  I noticed one 
catalog that recommended using a small bag, weighted down with marbles. 
Also, lately I've been dry-hopping in my primary fermenter after everything 
has settled down (about 2 days before transferring) with pretty good 
success.  Good aroma, and cleaner.  Thanks. 
 
Bob 
 

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From: Antonio Tamburro <tamburro at cmns.mnegri.it>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 16:02:17 +0100 (MET)
Subject: for all brewery.

I am looking for someone that produced beer interested to commercialize 
its product in Italy. 
Everybody has some informations abaut it can write at his address: 
 
Tamburro Antonio 
c.da Inforchie 3 
66050 Celenza sul Trigno 
   (Chieti)   Italy 
 
address e-mail:  tamburro at cmns.mnegri.it 
 
private e-mail is fine. 
 
Antonio. 
 

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From: D1FKV0W at BATLAN.BELL-ATL.COM
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 10:34:38 -0500
Subject: "Inedible" Corn as an adjunct

 On 05 Nov 1996 at 10:50, Art Steinmetz <asteinm at pipeline.com> wrote: 
 [responding to Matthew Taylor <mtaylor at mail.valverde.edu>] 
 
 > At 09:30 AM 11/4/96 -0800, you wrote: 
 >>I still have a lot of old ears 
 >>of corn left on the stalks. It's too old 
 >>to eat so I was thinking about fermenting it in my next batch of 
 beer. 
 
 >A useful maxim I heard is "Don't cook with wine you wouldn't drink." 
 >- -- Art 
 
 Art, how often do you serve black patent malt at your table?  Never? 
 How about a dish of stewed roasted barley, husks and all?  Not 
 interested?  I doubt that Matthew's corn is really inedible.  It is 
 probably just no longer suitable as corn-on-the-cob.  It might be 
 fine for creamed corn, corn fritters, corn bread, or whatever. 
 
 Matt, I hope that you are going for it, and that some people with 
 experience in the use of corn have sent you useful information by 
 private E-mail, since none appeared on the HBD.  Please post your 
 results and/or a summary of any advice you got; you have at least one 
 person who is interested in seeing them. 
 
 Robert A. West 
 rwesthomebrewer at freemark.com 

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From: Terry Selba <taselba at dgs.dgsys.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 12:14:20 -0500
Subject: Salvage operation

Hello collective. 
 
I asked an IMBR question about the thin milky-white layer sitting on top 
of my carboy a couple of digests ago, and have since received several 
e-mail responses.  I've also talked about it with some of my pals around 
these parts.  My thanks to all who sent me e-mail, and my apologies for 
not mentioning them by name here. 
 
The suggestions ran the entire spectrum from RDWHAHB to "dump it."  The 
majority seemed to think that it is worth the effort to go ahead and 
bottle it anyway and see how it comes out. 
 
So I'll be equipping my racking cane with a fresh scrubby this weekend. 
I'll stop the flow into the bottling bucket before anything floating can 
find it's way there, and press on.  We'll see how it comes out in a few 
weeks. 
 
I'll be coming home with new hoses and stoppers from the brewshop on my 
way home.  All that there is left for me to do is to resolve once again 
to practice the best sanitation that I possibly can, 
 
At this point, the worst that can happen is that I won't be waiting that 
long for the next batch of bottles to materialize.  ;-)  Thanks again to 
all who offered their advice/condolences/suggestions, and good brewing 
to the entire collective. 
 
Regards, 
T. 

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From: brewshop at coffey.com (Jeff Sturman)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 10:42:42 -0700
Subject: foxx distribution valves

I am looking at buying the 4 way distribution valves from the Foxx catalog. 
The catalog says they are nickel plated brass and they are intended for 
gas distribution.  Could these also be used for liquid distribution?  I 
want to use one for running the co2 to the kegs and another for running 
four kegs to one tap on the front of my fridge.  This allows you to open 
and close the valves, so i could open the valve on the one beer i want to 
sever while leaving the other three valves closed.  Is it safe to run 
carbonated beverages through nickel plated brass?  TIA for any help! 
 
jeff 
casper, wy 
 
 

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From: "David R. Burley" <103164.3202 at CompuServe.COM>
Date: 08 Nov 96 12:57:50 EST
Subject: Re: Ca++/AA stability/grist size/efficiency

Brewsters: 
 
Guy asks: 
> Sorry to parachute in on this interesting thread but I have a  question: 1) 
why 
> could not low efficiency for large grist sizes be due to lower overall 
> surface area available for  reaction of mash liquor and grain? 2) Couldn't 
> alpha and beta be available, and disappear as you suggest, in larger overall 
> grist size distributions,  but the result be unextractable because of the 
> problems of extracting the goodies from the interior of the grain?3) Is there
> data indicating alpha amylase rate vs. grain size? 4) Is the alpha amylase in
> the grain, the mash liquor, or both? 
 
>..........  Your reply is appreciated. 
 
I have labeled Guy's question 1,2,3,4. I think this thread was a subset of the 
Ca++ thread. 
 
1) I think that's the reason. It is a well known phenomenon that milling 
affects
efficiency, but I have never seen any hard numbers other than my own to this 
effect. There must be a professional study somewhere that shows a relationship 
between grist surface area and rates of enzyme reactions.  In the macro world, 
milling larger in my set of mashing conditions (we must always indicate them 
- -1.1 to 1.3 qts/lb, LT holds,158F, 90 min) gives less efficiency of producing 
soluble carbohydrates in the wort. In the micro world of starch granules and 
enzymes, I just don't understand it. 
 
2) I'm sure this must be a factor, based on my experience with  the rate of 
sparging poorly milled malts which are generally faster running. But I usually 
control the rate to about an hour for 6.5 gals of wort in all cases. On 
thinking
about it, the larger the milled particles in the sparge, the slower the sparge 
should be run.  I suppose a baseline would be a totally unmilled malt. 
Interesting series of experiments to think about. 
 
3) I'd love to see it, it would be part of that database of many variables that
affect mashing outcomes 
 
4) Both 
 
See Steve Alexander's excellent input of info on this subject on both 
Ca++/stability and starch granule reduction by AA in HBD #2267 
- ------------------------------------------------- 
 
Keep on brewin' 
 
 
Dave Burley 
Kinnelon, NJ 07405 
103164.3202 at compuserve.com 
 
 

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From: M257876 at sl1001.mdc.com (BAYEROSPACE)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 12:36 -0600
Subject: oxygenation/aeration

collective homebrew conscience: 
 
i have a few more ideas regarding the oxygenation/aeration topic. 
first, some previous material: 
 
>> 1.how long does it take for the super saturated wort to reach an equilibrium
    state with regard to its dissolved oxygen level? 
 
 
ajd responded: 
 
 
> In ordinary circumstances I think we are talking in the order of a 
>few minutes. 
 
 
>>2 what would this final equilibrium dissolved oxygen level be at some nominal
    temperature, say 65 deg. F, and 1 atm? 
 
 
>  0C    5C     10C    15C     20C   25C   30C   35C   40C 
>14.64  12.75  11.25  10.06   9.08  8.25  7.55  6.94  6.41 mg/l 
 
>It's widely reported that O2 is less soluble in wort and so it is but not 
>appreciably so in the range of gravities seen in normal (12 degree or so) 
>beers. 
 
 
in the recent bt article on aeration/oxygenation, one of the advantages of 
oxygenation is that you can achieve higher levels of dissolved oxygen in a 
shorter amount of time than with aeration.  the hours-long process of running 
an aquarium pump and aerating was deemed "unacceptable to most homebrewers". 
the advantage of using oxygen was that you could use it for a minute or two, 
achieve significantly higher levels of dissolved oxygen, and be done with it. 
 
well, my observation is this: if you use an oxygen tank and oxygenate your wort
in a minute, then stop,  according to the above information your wort is 
going to have about 9 ppm of dissolved oxygen " a few minutes " after you 
stop oxygenating.  9 ppm is achievable using aeration methods, including 
rolling an oversize (7 gal) carboy around on the floor for 5 or 10 minutes, 
if i understand the article correctly. 
 
 
so if you truly want *higher* levels of dissolved oxygen, you need to do 
some sort of "continuous feeding", even with oxygen.  you need to keep a 
supply going to the yeast, as they are taking it up in the lag period. 
another homebrewer (dion, i think), mentioned how he oxygenated under pressure 
for a number of hours in a corny keg.  this, to me, is the only economical 
way to use oxygen and get *steady*, *higher* dissolved levels versus running an
aquarium pump for a few hours.  and you're still spending a few hours to 
get more oxygen to your yeast, as you are with the aquarium pump. 
 
 
so, really, the advantage of oxygen is that you don't have to roll the 
oversize carboy around for 10 minutes.  you're still looking at 8 or 9 ppm 
if you give your wort a 1 minute blast and then don't do anything else. 
 
 
of course, this assumes you have an oversize carboy. 
 
i really want some criticism of this idea.  i feel like i'm missing a piece 
of information or something. 
 
brew hard, 
 
mark bayer 
 
 
 
 
 
 

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From: Brendan Oldham <brendan at star.net>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 14:57:01 -0500
Subject: CO2 Tank

I recently visited a fire extinguisher store to purchase a CO2 tank for 
kegging.
I was presented with a old tank that looked like a red fire extinguisher, 
but had a Carbon Dioxide label on the front of it. I explained that I could 
not use it because I needed a threaded valve that I could attach a regulator 
to (it had a extinguisher type top-excuse the shop talk!). He said he would 
put on a valve that I could use for this purpose. Is this purchase 
adviseable? It had a bunch of dates on it one of which was 11/96. Does this 
mean a test was done on this date or that it expires on this date? Should I 
have any other concerns, like internal cleanliness? He wants $45. Thanks for 
any input. 
Cheers! 
 

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From: Dave Schmidt <dschmidt at microlink.net>
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 12:55:18 -0600
Subject: Re: FOXX Beverage

At 04:09 PM 10/31/96 -0500, you wrote: 
>Collective, 
> 
>Does this company really exist?? I see regular references to parts 
>and stuff from these folks and I've seen their ads in Zymurgy, but 
>despite three or four calls over the course of about six months I 
>haven't been able to get a catalog from these people.  What gives?? 
> 
>Jim Thomas 
> 
>Jim, Foxx equipment company does exist, but they are a wholesaler.  They 
would probably like to direct you to a home-brew shop in your area instead 
of sending you a catalog. 
 
Dave 
 

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From: paa3765 at dpsc.dla.mil (Steve Adams)
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 96 14:23:13 est
Subject: 1056 vs. 1272

 
 
 
I agree that the two yeasts seem to be approximate in their attenuation; 
however, there are claims that the 1272 is more flocculent and this seems to be
generally true.  Also, it is rumored to emphasize the maltiness more.  This 
seems to be true also.  I've brewed a couple of beers with it recently, but 
they're still pretty green.  I'm going to try it on a brown ale in the next 
couple of days and maybe a stout, too.  It looks like all of my holiday beers 
(30-35 gallons) will be made from the 1272 (because of my sheer laziness) so I 
sure hope it's good. 
 
To be truthful SNPA can get on my nerves a little bit after awhile -- esp. from
the bottle -- but the 1056 beer I've tasted with more crystal or roasted malts,
I liked better.  Is SN using a different yeast for the bottled stuff as 
previously rumored here? 
 
Steve Adams 
 
 
 
 

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From: "Bryan L. Gros" <grosbl at ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 13:54:04 -0600 (CST)
Subject: three hands

Jay Reeves asks a good question (re: CP bottle fillers): 
>>I've seen this statement in several places and I can't seem to see why this 
>>statement is made.  I don't seem to have any trouble whatsoever.  Maybe 
>>I'm using mine "wrong" or maybe I'm just talented (doubtful on the last 
>>"maybe"), but the technique I use produces no foam, very little loss of CO2 
>>and I've never seen a need for a "third" hand.  Can someone enlighten me as 
>>to why one needs a "third" hand? 
 
I seem to do well with only two hands.  I use one hand to hold the filler in 
place 
on the bottle.  Then, with the other hand (usually the right one), I open the 
gas valve and close it. I open the bleeder valve and let the air out and close 
it.  I then open the gas valve and pressurize the bottle.  With the same hand, 
I then close the gas valve and open the beer valve.  Then I open the bleeder 
valve slightly and let the bottle fill. 
 
You get the picture.  Since all these things are done serially and not in 
parallel, I get by fine without three hands.  How do the three handed people 
do things? 
 
          - Bryan 
            grosbl at ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu 
            Nashville, TN 
 

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From: "David R. Burley" <103164.3202 at CompuServe.COM>
Date: 08 Nov 96 15:39:20 EST
Subject: Re: Oxygenation.

Brewsters: 
 
A..J. DeLange comments on my comments on G. Fix's comments on oxygen lethality 
to yeasts.  See below: 
 
In my continuing quest to really understand oxygenation, Spencer Thomas sent me
some stuff from past HBDs by George Fix on this subject:: 
 
Sorry to be so long, but I think everyone should speak for himself here and I 
think George's hard data and comments need to be brought in once again. If you 
don't want the detail, page down to the summary.  I shortened the quotations 
where I could: 
 
- - ---------------------------------------------------------------- 
> Posting 15: Extracted from file:  1446 
> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 94 09:37:32 -0500 
> From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix) 
> Subject: Wort Aeration 
 
>"................... I separated this project into two parts, namely static 
and
dynamic tests. The 
> former are complete, and the objective of the static measurements was to 
> record the maximum amount of O2 that could be dissolved as a function of 
> temperature and gravity. Lengthy O2 feeds were used to make sure the 
saturation 
> limit was achieved............ 
> 
> All tests were done with a Zahm and Nagel tank with a .2 micron diffusing 
stone 
> attached to the gas line. ......... 
> 
> In the static tests the saturation limit decreased with increasing 
temperature. 
> This was expected, and indeed this effect can be deduced from theoretical 
> considerations. A second effect that is not as well known is that the 
> saturation limit also decreases with wort gravity................ If this is 
the case, then 
> saturation values for water are not a reliable guide for what actually 
> occurs for real beer wort. 
 
>        12.5 C                  15 C                20C 
> 
>     DO        SG             DO     SG           DO     SG 
>    -----    -------         ----   -------      -----  ------- 
>    8.1      1.030           7.5    1.030         6.5    1.030 
>    7.7      1.040           7.1    1.040         6.2    1.040 
>    6.9      1.060           6.3    1.060         5.6    1.060 
>    5.7      1.080           5.5    1.080         5.0    1.080 
> 
> In the above DO stands for dissolved O2 levels in mg/l, while SG stands 
> for wort gravity. 
> 
(((> Dissolved O2 can be hazardous to yeast once DO levels approaches the high 
> teens (in mg/l).)))) Our results indicate that there is no way such levels 
> can be reached with beer wort no matter how much O2 is injected." 
 
 
This is the source for my comment. ((( my highlights))) And this also supports 
A.J. DeLange's response to my comment. A.J.'s point was that the wort would not
support lethal levels of oxygen. I agree, but only if the wort is in 
equilibrium
with air at one atmosphere. 
 
 However, It is possible to get to the teens either through non-equilibrium 
injection( e.g. right next to the injection bubbler or in an in-line injection)
or by pressurization with pure oxygen. 
 
George comments on this: 
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------- 
> 
> Posting 38: Extracted from file:  1598 
> Date: Tue, 5 Dec 95 14:14:20 -0600 
> From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix) 
> 
> Subject: Wort aeration/ fermenter geometry 
>>" ................interesting). The "in line" DO values reported (both by 
calculation 
> and direct measurement) fell in the range 20-30 mg/l. This creates 
> something of a paradox because values in this range are definitely 
> lethal to yeast. This paradox gets resolved at the very end of the 
> article where it is seen that once the wort enters the fermenter 
> depressurization occurs and DO readings promptly drop below 10 mg/l. 
> This is the point Maribeth made, namely there is a definite limit to 
> the amount of O2 that can be completely dissolved in wort. Moreover, 
> this saturation limit is well below that which is harmful to 
yeast......................." 
 
Clears it up for me. 
 
 In a system in equilibrium with air, wort cannot support a lethal-to-yeasts 
level of oxygen, however in pure oxygen at 1 atmosphere the solubility of 
oxygen
in wort will be probably be in the twenties or thirties ppm. This will be high 
enough to be lethal to yeasts. So: if you are injecting oxygen while pumping 
into a FV, pitch the yeast after the oxygen injection. If you are contemplating
a continuous injection into a starter, then use air to be safe. 
 
Keep on brewin' 
 
 
Dave Burley 
Kinnelon, NJ 07405 
103164.3202 at compuserve.com 
 
 
 

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From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 16:19:23 -0500
Subject: No Sparge -- A Parting Shot

One aspect of the no-sparge technique that has recieved much airplay here is 
cost.  Sure, an all-grain brewer will spend more money on a batch than s/he 
did before using this approach, but an *extract brewer* will save large 
dollars over an extract batch even if they "throw away the lost sugars". 
 Yummy malt flavor notwithstanding, I think the attraction of this technique 
is largely in the gateway it provides an extract brewer to make real 
all-grain beers: 
 
*- in a small kitchen 
*- on the wimpy one-burner electric stove 
*- in a small kettle (concentrated wort) 
 
just like they may already do.  No three-tier stands or extra kettles of 
sparge water cluttering up the kitchen.  Not everyone has the wherewithall 
for a "proper" all-grain system (whatever that is), especially apartment 
dwellers or those on a tight budget.  Sure, no-sparge mashing takes an extra 
couple hours to mash & drain compared with extract brewing, but the only 
equipment you need that you didn't have before is the mashtun.  And if the 
time comes later that you want to move to all-grain brewing, you already have 
a mashtun. 
 
***** 
 
Ken Schwartz 
El Paso, TX 
KennyEddy at aol.com 
http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy 
 

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From: "Palmer.John" <palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com>
Date: 8 Nov 1996 14:12:07 U
Subject: Storing Wort Chillers

If you have ever attempted to sanitize copper using bleach, you will quickly 
realize that it is "not good". It will turn black. Those black oxides will then
be transferred to the wort. 
 
To sanitize copper, use iodophor, or heat. To clean it prior to storage, 
boiling
water and B-Brite would be my suggested method (for Counter Flow). for 
immersion, B-brite for the crud and hot water rinse. 
 
If you suspect a lot of oxides inside a Counter flow, or see them outside on an
Immersion, then use White Distilled Vinegar to remove them. 
 
John J. Palmer - Metallurgist for MDA-ISS M&P 
johnj at primenet.com  Huntington Beach, California 
Palmer House Brewery and Smithy - www.primenet.com/~johnj/ 

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From: Rob Kienle <rkienle at interaccess.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 16:48:52 -0500
Subject: re: Mashing specialty grains/Munich

In HBD 2251, Bill Giffen says, regarding specialty grains: 
 
>> Put all the grains into the mash at the beginning of the mash. The specialty
grains all have unconverted starch that needs to be mashed to convert. <<
 
While I agree in terms of Munich malt and other "specialty" 
malts that likewise usually comprise a significant portion of the mash, 
I've seen some controversy regarding this issue in terms of other 
specialty malts, used in smaller quantities and for different purposes, 
such as crystal. 
 
I've read and been told that mashing crystal malt might either damage 
the dextrins that contribute to head retention/body, as well as risk the 
leeching of tannins--especially as malt darkness increases. Mashing 
roast barley and black patent malts, for example, may cause astringency 
and/or overly bitter beer (though the well-known habit of adding a 
little black patent at the end of the mash remains a good addition for 
the clarity of most any beer). On the other hand, mashing chocolate malt 
is said to help acidify the mash and is therefore a good idea. Apart 
from chocolate malt, then, there seems to be a case for not adding any 
of the other specialty/colored grains until mash-out. 
 
What says the collective? 
 
Rob Kienle 
Chicago, IL 
rkienle at interaccess.com 

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From: Rob Kienle <rkienle at interaccess.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 17:13:58 -0500
Subject: re: Protein Rest using Highly Modified Malt

In HBD 2268, Charles Burns asks: 
 
>> So, question - what temperature would be best for the rest (yes, it 
rhymes) using say Hugh Bairds Pale Ale and for how long? My inclination 
is somewhere between 125 and 130F for about 30 minutes. And oh yeah, 
probably very very thick  at  about 24 oz water per pound of malt. 
 
>> Or am I completely wasting time and energy? Or am I possibly ruining my 
mash by doing this with fully modified malt? 
 
 
I have been using highly modified malt for all my "pale" ales for about 
a year now, but I have not been using a protein rest with the base pale 
ale malt. Instead, I've done a "mini" protein rest at 122 for 30 minutes 
for any supplemental grains (except crystal) such as wheat or Victory or 
whatever, with a smaller amount of water of course, and then added the 
highly modified malt when I go to saccarification rests. I also use 
Irish Moss in every batch but not gelatin. Every batch has been pretty 
much crystal clear using this procedure. I've yet to have the time to do 
a duplicate batch using a protein rest for the highly modified malt, and 
haven't tried to find the time since everything's been working out so 
far and it hasn't turned out to be particularly more complex. 
 
Prosit! 
- -Rob Kienle 
- -Chicago, IL 
- -rkienle at interaccess.com 

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From: ndd3 at psu.edu (Nicholas Dahl)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 18:47:44 -0500
Subject: Deschutes Brewery BBP Clone Recipe

After working on this recipe for over a year, I think I can finally share 
it with the brewing public.  It is virtually identical to the original, but 
I'll let you be the judge.  Special thanks to George De Piro and Hiawatha 
for their input during the recipe's formulation.  I really hope you enjoy 
it! 
 
Truth in brewing, 
 
Nick 
 
BUMBLE BEE PORTER 
 
Full Mash 
Gravities: 1.049 and 1.017-18 
Alcohol:  4.5% 
Color:  99.1 srm 
Hop IBU:  57.9 
 
Numbers provided by SUDS 4.0 
 
Recipe uses 9.88 pounds grain and makes approximately 5.5 gallons, although 
I only bottled two 12oz. cases out of this batch.  I also used distilled 
water, adding 0.5 teaspoon gypsum to the mash water, and a very small 
amount of 88% lactic acid to reduce pH. 
 
Ingredients: 
 
5 pounds American Two-Row (I used Briess) 
1 pound  Belgian Biscuit 
1 pound  DWC Munich 
12 oz.   Belgian Special-B 
8 oz.    DWC Chocolate Malt 
8 oz.    British CaraPils 
8 oz.    Flaked Barley 
4 oz.    DWC CaraMunich 
4 oz.    DWC Aromatic 
2 oz.    Black Patent 
 
Hops: 
 
0.5 oz.  Galena (12.0%) 60 minutes 
0.5 oz.  Galena (12.0%) 45 minutes 
0.5 oz.  Cascade (5.9%) 30 minutes 
0.5 oz.  Cascade (5.9%) 15 minutes 
1.0 oz.  Tettnanger (3.8%) 5 minutes 
 
Mash with 1 quart/pound. 
Strike water:  2.5 gallons of 170F water. 
Add 0.5 gallons boiling water to raise mash to 158F. 
Recirculated 4 quarts of mash, then drained 4 quarts of mash and heated to 
boil.  Returned to mash for mashout.  Sparge with 5 gallons water. 
 
Once boil is established, begin hop schedule.  I added two quarts distilled 
water 30 minutes into the boil (it was a warm day and the boil was rolling 
nicely).  I added my immersion chiller with 30 minutes remaining.  After 
cooling, I added 1/2 teaspoon HopTech Foam control to a sanitized 6 gallon 
carboy, then carefully poured the cool wort through a stainless steel 
strainer nested in a large funnel.  After chilling the wort further in a 
water bath to 58F, I aerated the wort using an aquarium pump, 0.22 micron 
filter, and aquarium airstone for 30 minutes. 
 
The yeast, which came from a bottle of Black Butte Porter, was stepped up 
to a 2000ml starter.  I think the fermentation temperature might have been 
too cold (60F) because it took almost 36 hours to reach active 
fermentation.  Temperture was maintained at 60F for seven days, then racked 
to secondary, where temperature was allowed to stabilize at 65F for two 
weeks.  Bottled using 5/8 cups corn sugar.  Allow at least four weeks in 
the bottle to condition before taste testing. 
 
Please send me responses, criticisms, etc. at ndd3 at psu.edu 
 
 

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From: Mike Donald <mpd at plaza.ds.adp.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 16:32:41 PST
Subject: New listener intro

Bounced mail forwarded by Digest Janitor for Doug A Moller 
<damoller at odin.thor.net>.  Please send responses to author. 
 
- ------- Forwarded Message 
 
Hi, 
I am writting to introduce myself as a somewhat new listener to the 
digest. I have been brewing for 8 years at home and over 3 years at a 
pub (bricktown brewery, Okc). I am self taught well with the help of 
Miller, Noonan and instinct. My favorite drinking beer is a golden malty 
german wheat beer, complex rich and rewarding. 
 
keep up the fun, 
Doug A Moller 
 
dont go pro 
 
- ------- End of Forwarded Message 
 
 
 

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From: Mike Donald <mpd at plaza.ds.adp.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 16:45:35 PST
Subject: Request extract recipe

Message forwarded by Digest Janitor for Rich Mehrenberg (rlmva at rma.edu). 
Please give all credits and direct any responses to the author. 
 
- ------- Forwarded Message 
 
Could someone suggest an extract recipe that mimics the taste of one of my 
favorites-Samuel Adames Boston Lager?  Thanks. Rich Mehrenberg (rlmva at rma.edu) 
 
- ------- End of Forwarded Message 
 
 
 

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From: Vince Mitchell <VJMitchell at asu.edu>
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 15:25:12 -0700
Subject: Cream Stout......

I am looking for a extract recipe for a really tastey cream stout, maybe 
close to Watney's or the like. Any Help all of the Guru's here could 
muster would be greatly appriciated!!! 
 
Vince Mitchell 
VJMitchell at asu.edu 

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From: "chadb" <chadb at dgii.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 18:44:43 -0800
Subject: used kegs

Does anyone know where I can get some used (but still good condition) 16 
gallon sankey(sp) kegs?  I am considering building a gravity feed system 
for 10 gallon batches, and am doing a cost analysis. 
 
Thanks in advance, 
 
chad 

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From: u-brew-it <ubrewit at csra.net>
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 18:41:00 -0800
Subject: Apology for Mistake

To the HBD as a whole, 
On Thursday night I responded to a query about "cleaning corny kegs" and 
mistakingly listed only part of the proper URL.  It was late, I was 
exhaused.... My bad... 
 
The proper URL for the info on cleaning corny kegs, and other tech info 
for some other neat brewing hardware should have been: 
 
http://www.vigra.com/~hollen/brewdocs/index.html 
 

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From: u-brew-it <ubrewit at csra.net>
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 19:48:40 -0800
Subject: Amber malt exract

To Kevin DeWitt, 
 
In your post you asked: 
 
Subject: What is 'Amber' malt extrat 
 
I have talked to a few people involved in the malt extract industry and 
the answer is vague: "It varies from manufacturer to manufacturer" 
 
One hard and fast rule (so it seems) is that most manufacturers usually 
only make light and dark, and Amber is a mixture of 2 parts light and 1 
part dark. 
 
This is why Charlie P. gives multiple conversions: 
5 lb. Amber malt extract= 5 lb. light extract plus 2 cups crystal malt 
                      -OR- 
5 lb. Amber malt extract= 5 lb. light extract plus 1/2 cup chocolate, 
black or roasted. 
 
Obviously there is alot of variance, and the composition is determined by 
the grains used by the manufacturer.  This is an arguement for all grain 
brewing since you know exactly what is going in. 
 
One final note, I know Superbrau malt extracts uses DeWolf Cosyn Spec. B, 
Chocolate, and Black (or so I seem to remember).  As a result there is a 
caramel character, along with some chocolate/roast character.  But still 
I don't know the ratios. 
 
This problem is why when I make "mash-extract" recipes I'll start off 
with light malt extract (almost exclusively) and add the proper grains 
for the style.  Thus I can "reverse engineer" an all grain recipe and 
still keep the amount of time required short enough to fit into my busy 
schedule. 
 
I'm sorry that there is not a better answer than "it depends" but such is 
the nature of the beast. 
 
Good luck and good brewing, 
 
Kurt A. Meyer 
 

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From: cpenn at interaccess.com (Calgarey Penn)
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 21:19:16 -0600
Subject: Sake & koji

Hello everyone, 
 
I have been subscribing to the digest for a couple of weeks now, 
and there is lots of good information contained there. 
 
I have been brewing for a little more than 1 year and I enjoy it 
very much and constantly am learning more about brewing. 
 
I lived in Japan for a number of years and came to enjoy various 
kinds of sake. 
 
I am now interested in trying my hand at a batch of sake, but 
cannot find any good references that can guide me. 
 
Anyone have any recommendations about brewing sake? 
 
I also will need to find a source for koji which is important in 
the production of sake. Any sources out there? 
 
As I say, I enjoy brewing very much, but in my area, the local 
brew supply shop continues to hike their retail prices. I enjoy 
good brew, but surely there must be less expensive sources for 
the materials. 
 
Can anyone out there guide me to good, quality brew material 
suppliers that don't charge an arm and a leg for their goods.... 
 
Please contact me via e-mail at cpenn at interaccess.com 
 
Thanks very much in advance and continue to enjoy your brews! 
 
 
Regards, 
 
 
Calgarey Penn 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
"Whatever you can do, or 
dream you can, begin it. 
Boldness has genius, 
power and magic in it." 
 
Goethe 
 
 

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