---

   FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
        Mike Donald, Digest Janitor-in-training
        Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!

Contents:
  Re: Cutting enamel pots (Dave Greenlee)
  Burned taste in Stout (AJUNDE at ccmail.monsanto.com)
  [none] ((George J Fix))
  re: Protein Rest using Highly Modified Malt (Steve Alexander)
  Re:A complement, a few questions, and a funny one... (GARY MCCARTHY)
  Chambord in beer (Agnor Craig)
  Blood Glucose meter question. (Steve Alexander)
  Insulating converted kegs (u-brew-it)
  Smoked Malt (Bob McCowan)
  Watch out! (uistats at utell.com)
  Subject: insulating converted kegs (Neil Roberts)
  Ginger (Skip Jonas)
  Digest Submission (Richard Walto)
  Pump (Terry White)
  Lousy extraction, revisited (Rick Gontarek)
  [none] ()
  [none] ()
  Plastic Pickle Buckets (Edward J. Steinkamp)
  [none] ()
  Networt II Results (Kathi Colaizzi)
  Looking for a small used brewing system (Gitay Kryger)
  Root Beer (Tom Martin)
  American Dunkle? (MaltyDog at aol.com)
  More on O2 and Yeast ((A. J. deLange))

For SUBMISSIONS to be published, send mail to:
  homebrew at aob.org
For (UN)SUBSCRIBE requests, send mail to:
  homebrew-digest-request@ aob.org
  and include ONLY subscribe or unsubscribe in the BODY of the message.

Please note that if subscribed via BEER-L, you must unsubscribe by sending
  a one line e-mail to listserv at ua1vm.ua.edu that says: UNSUB BEER-L
If your address is changing, please unsubscribe from the old address and
  then subscribe from the new address.
If your account is being deleted, please be courteous and unsubscribe first.
For technical problems send e-mail to the Digest Janitor,
homebrew-digest-owner at aob.org.

OTHER HOMEBREW INFORMATION
  http://www.aob.org/aob - The AHA's web site.
  http://alpha.rollanet.org - "The Brewery" and the Cat's Meow Archives.
  info at aob.org - automated e-mail homebrewing information.

ARCHIVES:
  At ftp.stanford.edu in /pub/clubs/homebrew/beer via anonymous ftp.  Also
  http://alpha.rollanet.org on the web and at majordomo at aob.org by e-mail.

COPYRIGHT:
  As with all forums such as this one, copyrights are retained by the
  original authors. In accordance with the wishes of the members of the
  Homebrew Digest, posts to the HBD may NOT be sold or used as part of a
  collection that is sold without the original authors' consent. Copies
  may ONLY be made available at no charge and should include the current
  posting and subscription addresses for the HBD.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Dave Greenlee <daveg at mail.airmail.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 13:02:41 -0600
Subject: Re: Cutting enamel pots

I had several good responses to my drilling enamel pots 
question.  A compilation of answers follows in no particular 
order: 
 
- ------------------------------------------------------ 
 
From: Adam Fisher (Adam=Fisher%SDL%MSDBED at vines.msd.ray.com) 
 
I did something like this before and what I did was put a 
couple layers of duct tape on either side of where I was going 
to drill.  On top of that I shaped a piece of wood to fit on 
the inside of the pot over the area where I was going to 
drill.  I don't think this was necessary but I've been none to 
over prepare sometimes.  I then used a high speed drill with a 
brand new drill bit for metals.  Tell me how it turns out. 
 
- ------------------------------------------------------ 
 
From: bob rogers <bob at carol.net> 
 
i just put a valve in my enamel kettle. i used a nail to start 
the hole, then a large round rasp to enlarge it. i finished the 
hole with a small grinding wheel in my dremel tool. the enamel 
did not flake as much as i thought it would. 
 
- ------------------------------------------------------ 
 
From: Jack St.Clair <jstclair at stt3.com> 
 
Dave, cutting a hole in enamel should be no harder than cutting 
a hole in glass.  An old glaziers trick is to put a small 
dollop of modeling clay on the area where you want the hole. 
Form it in the shape of a small volcano with the sides about a 
half of an inch high and the bottom an eigth inch over the 
drill area.  Use a carbide drill at high speed and use gentle 
pressure while drilling.  The clay will minimize the chipping. 
I have successfully drilled numerous "un-drillable" objects 
using this technique. 
 
- ------------------------------------------------------ 
 
From: Ken Schwartz (KennyEddy at aol.com) 
 
  Depending on the required hole size, you might try a hole 
saw.  This should cut more or less perpendicularly into the 
enamel, rather than across it, minimizing chipping.  Failing 
that, try scoring the hole's circular outline first (or 
slightly larger), cutting through the enamel with a sharp knife 
or scribe.  This way, if the enamel chips while drilling, it 
will only flake off up to the scribed circle.  By making the 
circle slightly larger (1/16"?) than the hole, the risk of 
"accidentally" chipping past the scribe is minimized. 
 
  Also, use progressively bigger drill bits.  This will also 
help ensure clean drilling.  Don't be afraid to use five or 
more drill sizes, and "sneak up" on the final hole size.  Any 
exposed metal within a small ring around the final hole will be 
covered up with a ealing washer anyway. 
 
- ------------------------------------------------------ 
 
From: Matthew Karpinski (karp at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu) 
 
  I just did so myself, I found that the hardest part was 
getting the hole big enough to get the fixtures thru the wall 
(I used a 3/8" NPT male to 3/8"compression fitting, NPT threads 
through the pot with neoprene washers on either side of the 
hole -- the hole had to be 5/8") I ended up cutting through 
with a 1/2" bit and using a countersink I had lying around to 
get the hole big enough.   Seems to work so far. just remember 
that teflon tape is your friend. 

Return to table of contents


From: AJUNDE at ccmail.monsanto.com
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 13:02:04 -0600
Subject: Burned taste in Stout

 
     Recently, I tried to do my first batch of Stout. All went well for the 
     most part, and bottling went well. 
 
     Well, I opened the first bottle the weekend before Holloween, and 
     there is a very strong "burned" aftertaste in the back of my mouth. 
 
     Is this a function of the amount of Roasted Barley or the fact that I 
     boiled the grains? (see my previous posts questioning the boiling of 
     grains) 
 
     Will this flavor diminish with aging? (I hope, I hope, I hope!) 
 
     My wife and her girlfriends did like mixing it with Bass for Black & 
     Tans, so if the flavor doesn't go away, the batch won't go to waste. 
 
     Thanks! 
 
|              Allen Underdown - ajunde at ccmail.monsanto.com                 | 
|       ITSS WAN Group - Monsanto World Headquarters - St. Louis, MO        | 
|             Homebrewing in the Shadow of the Mighty AB, the               | 
|           inventors of the Clidesdale Water Filtration System             | 
 

Return to table of contents


From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 96 12:58:35 -0600
Subject: [none]

 

Return to table of contents


From: Steve Alexander <stevea at clv.mcd.mot.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 14:13:31 -0500
Subject: re: Protein Rest using Highly Modified Malt

 
Rob Kienle in response to Charley Burns query about protein rests says ... 
 
>In HBD 2268, Charles Burns asks: 
> 
>>> So, question - what temperature would be best for the rest (yes, it 
>rhymes) using say Hugh Bairds Pale Ale and for how long? My inclination 
>is somewhere between 125 and 130F for about 30 minutes. And oh yeah, 
>probably very very thick  at  about 24 oz water per pound of malt. 
> 
>>> Or am I completely wasting time and energy? Or am I possibly ruining my 
>mash by doing this with fully modified malt? 
> 
> 
>I have been using highly modified malt for all my "pale" ales for about 
>a year now, but I have not been using a protein rest with the base pale 
>ale malt. Instead, I've done a "mini" protein rest at 122 for 30 minutes 
>for any supplemental grains (except crystal) such as wheat or Victory or 
>whatever, with a smaller amount of water of course, and then added the 
>highly modified malt when I go to saccarification rests. 
... 
 
Malt proteases are effective from malting temperatures up thru a peak 
temperature which varies depending on the particular protease.  There 
are many proteases involved, at least 6 and probably a lot more and 
I'm not aware of an encyclopedic list.  The 'optima' temperatures vary 
from about 40C/122F to 62C/143F. 
 
Generally speaking all modern malts are well modified by historic 
standards and so there is probably more than sufficient amino acids 
for healthy yeast growth in normal wort.  One exception is that 
unmalted adjunct (e.g. raw wheat) contribute little to the free amino 
acids and so beers with a high % adjunct can usefully withstand a 
peptidase rest (say 40C-55C).  Excess wort amino acids can purportedly 
have negative flavor consequences. 
 
An endoprotease rest (say 53C-60C) is useful for degrading high 
molecular weight proteins(HMWPs) into medium MWPs, and potentially 
reducing protein haze.  This is probably the only protein rest of 
interest for moderate to low adjuct recipes. 
 
In an offline discussion with Al Korzonas and Russ Brodeur re haze and 
proteases, I've reviewed my readily available sources and haven't yet 
found evidence in the lit that a protein rest is enzymatically 
ineffective for pale ale malts like the hugh baird mentioned.  My 
feeling is that it is ineffective, becauses I suspect the proteases 
are largely denatured by the hotter kilning of PA malts, but I need to 
do a better library search to confirm this. 
 
Rob Kienle's method of resting at 122F for only the low diastatic 
power, highly kilned and unmalted grains probably has no effect on 
proteins.  The highly kilned grains (such as victory and biscuit) have 
almost certainly lost their proteases in the kiln.  Unmalted grains 
such as raw wheat or oats have almost no protease.  Most proteases, 
like alpha-amyase, develop progressively thru the malting process. 
 
Steve Alexander 

Return to table of contents


From: GARY MCCARTHY <mccarthy at IOMEGA.COM>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 12:47:59 -0700
Subject: Re:A complement, a few questions, and a funny one...

Hail All! 
 
In HBD 2270 Tim M. Dugan(tdugan at netins.net) wrote: 
 
>my wife recently said to me that "If you are smart enough to make 
>you(r) own beer, you are smart enough to make dinner!"  OOPS! 
 
Interesting comment, Tim.  I think that perhaps one has to like 
cooking to be a home brewer.  I know that my love of cooking allowed 
me to try home brewing and since then I've become proficient at bread 
and candy making(which is very simple, BTW), as well as all-grain 
brewing. 
 
>That said, I would like to ask a couple of questions... 
 
>I brewed my first batch, a stout <snip> I am disappointed about is 
>its body (mouth feel?),  it seems kind of watery.  Is this because* 
 
Hard to say since you don't say how you made it.  From a kit?  I 
never liked kits.  I would venture that is the reason. 
 
>I have learned since that Laaglander extract is high in 
non-fermentables. 
>Is this a bad thing for a starter? 
 
c)  Relax, don't worry...  You are just starting a yeast not really 
looking at the ending gravity. 
 
>I came across a digital thermometer with a temperature probe on a 
long wire. 
>I think it would be great <snip> 
 
I have a Radio Shack indoor/outdoor thermo that I use in the 
fermenter.  (Audible gasp from the audience).  I don't think it is 
bad for my brew at all.  I would use it in a chiller.  I would not 
use it in a mash though.  Prob not terminal, but I wouldn't do that. 
 
>Finally, speaking of all-grain, I am planning on doing two or three 
more 
>extract, then one or two partial-mash, but after that I want to try 
my 
>hand at all-grain.  What I want to know is whether this is a good 
first 
>time mashing system.  I want to get a 10-gallon Gott cooler, and an 
>EASYMASHER designed to fit the Gott cooler.  Is this a reasonable 
>first-time all-grain setup, or should I be looking at something 
simpler. 
 
Sounds about how I started brewing, then rapidly moved to all-grain. 
Some people have had troubles with temp control(stabilizing at the 
target temp) in a cooler; and I don't know how expensive an 
EASYMASHER is, but let me suggest that you make a lauter tun ala 
Parizean (slaughtered his name, right, NJOHB), and get yourself two 
five to seven gal kettles to mash in.  My opinion is that the 
traditional mash is better, but of course your set-up is up to you. 
You still need a kettle to do the boiling in. 
 
So take it easy, read lots of stuff, maybe find someone in your local 
area to sort of apprentice off of.  Sometimes friends let you use 
their equipment! 
 
Gary McCarthy in SLC 
 
No foolin' its a fu**ed up world; so be cool my little junkie girl! 
Walter Becker 

Return to table of contents


From: Agnor Craig <Craig.Agnor at Colorado.EDU>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 12:56:42 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Chambord in beer

Hi folks, 
 
A friend recently gave me a bottle of chambord as a gift.  I am 
considering brewing a porter and adding some to the secondary to create a 
sort of black raspberry-ish porter. 
 
Does anyone have any experience in using chambord in homebrewing? 
How much should be added for a noticable but not overpowering berry 
flavor? 
Is the secondary the right place to add the chambord (I'm planning on 
bottle conditioning this brew)? 
 
Any help and or recipes would be greatly appreciated. 
 
Private email is preferred and I'll post a summary of the responses if 
they appear to be of general interest. 
 
 
Thanks, 
 
Craig Agnor 
physics graduate student 
University of Colorado - Boulder 
agnor at ucsu.colorado.edu 
 

Return to table of contents


From: Steve Alexander <stevea at clv.mcd.mot.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 15:11:41 -0500
Subject: Blood Glucose meter question.

 
After many unsucessful attempts to post a response ... 
 
Diabetic Blood glucose meters measure only glucose and so are not 
generally useful in assessing fermentables in wort. 
 
Sa 

Return to table of contents


From: u-brew-it <ubrewit at csra.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 15:57:01 -0800
Subject: Insulating converted kegs

Mr Gros, 
A friend of mine built a very nice all grain 3 tier brew system.  To 
insulate his mash tun and sparge tank he used an aluminum faced bubble 
wrap that he purchased at one of the "Super-duper Home Folks Depot Maze" 
stores. 
I wondered if the bubbles sandwiched between the aluminum would stand up 
to the heat from the the propane burners.  Well I'm glad to say that 
after 5 batches everything seems fine. 
 
If anything else develops I'll post it to the HBD 
 
Kurt A. Meyer 
 

Return to table of contents


From: Bob McCowan <bob.mccowan at bmd.cpii.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 16:24:20 -0500
Subject: Smoked Malt

The local (sort of) shop now has Weyermann beechwood smoked malt.  The owner 
is not sure how strong it is, since he just got it in and hasn't tried it 
yet.  He suggested 1 lb in a 5 gal batch to to start. 
 
Has anyone tried this stuff?  How smoky is it? 
 
He has a bunch of other Weyermann malts too, such as the Munich malts and 
some of the crystals.  Anybody have experience with these malts? 
 
Bob 
 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Bob McCowan 
                                      voice:  (508)-922-6000 x208 
ATG/Receiver-Protector                fax:    (508)-922-8914 
CPI BMD 
Formerly Varian CF&RPP                e-mail: bob.mccowan at bmd.cpii.com or 
Beverly, MA  01915                            bob.mccowan at cfrp.varian.com 
 
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
 

Return to table of contents


From: uistats at utell.com
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 16:09:17 -0600
Subject: Watch out!

From the RBPMail, 
 
BEERS CONSUMED BY THE TRUNK-LOAD 
A herd of thirsty elephants 45-strong in search of water destroyed 
several illegal breweries in Midnapore, India, a district 62 miles 
southwest of Calcutta. "The elephants destroyed six illegal breweries 
in two days. They are notoriously famous for their fondness for 
liquor and are great guzzlers," Indian forest officials said. (Source: 
item unverified; forwarded by email from Marc Milrod  at  University 
of Washington) 
 
So be on the lookout for any roaming elephants in search of your homebrew :) 
 
 
Commercial Database Department 
Utell International  Omaha NE 
 
 

Return to table of contents


From: Neil Roberts <neil at wsnet.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 16:37:42 -0600
Subject: Subject: insulating converted kegs

"Bryan L. Gros" <grosbl at ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu> wrote: 
> What's the best way to insulate a converted sankey keg so that it 
> can still be heated on the propane burner, but the temperature won't 
> drop like a rock during the 1 hr. sparge? 
 
This may not be the best way, but I just bought a cheap sheet of 
vinyl(?) backed insulation intended for insulating water heaters. I cut 
it to fit and put some velco tabs on it to close it around the keg. I 
take it off when heating, etc, then slip it on when the flame is OFF (I 
suspect the vinyl covering would melt at the least under heat). I have 
had good luck the two times I used it with only about 1 - 3 degree F 
heat loss during an hour mash (don't remember exactly, just that it held 
the temp well). 
 
I think the insulation cost about $4 or so. 
 
Neil Roberts 
neil at wsnet.com 

Return to table of contents


From: Skip Jonas <skip at eclipse.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 18:43:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Ginger

Re-post of "disappeared"  mail: 
 
Folks, 
 
I would like to make a ginger-flavored holiday beer for a friend of mine. I 
have never used fresh ginger (in beer) before and would like to hear about 
any usage tips (amounts? in the boil? in the primary? in the secondary? 
chopped? sliced? whole "plug"? etc.) or recipes (all grain or extract). TIA, 
 
Skip 
 

Return to table of contents


From: Richard Walto <70410.1112 at CompuServe.COM>
Date: 11 Nov 96 18:56:24 EST
Subject: Digest Submission

Please submit this letter to the digest: 
 
Anyone who can help me has my indebtedness in excess.  I am trying to 
brew my favorite beer in the whole world.  Fuller's ESB or Young's 
Special London Ale are the best examples of what I'm after. 
 
My problem is this.  I can't do it, not even close.  I am an 
all-grain brewer since 1991 and have produced some beers that I truly 
enjoy and in many ways with them, I met the mark.  These include an 
Altbier, an Oktoberfest (Lager), an American Pale Ale and a few 
Belgian strong ales. 
 
The failing beers can probably be summed up as 'homebrew'.  Do you 
know what I mean?  Have you ever tasted a beer and said (to yourself) 
'this is homebrew'?  I have, and sometimes it's my own beer.  What is 
it anyway?  For me it's always the same taste.  But that taste! It's 
always the same!  I guess I would describe it as solvent and thin. 
 
My beers do not lack flavor, but it's this background solvent thing 
that ruins it.  I tasted the very same thing in Sam Adams Oktoberfest 
at a wedding.  It was subtle and I didn't even notice it until the 
2nd or third beer.  Have I now lost all credibility?  (I love Sam 
Adams other beers.)  Is it just a personal preference thing? 
 
As I began to study this problem I noticed one thing.  I always 
(underline always) had the problem when I used Wyeast #1968 (London 
ESB) or Wyeast #1028 (London Ale).  I've brewed probably 5 times with 
these yeasts, always with the same results.  I have had no problems 
with the other Wyeast types (#1056 Chico, Belgian Ale, #2308 Munich 
Lager, #1098 British, #1007 German Ale). 
 
I once made a great ESB with the British #1098, but it was so long 
ago that I hardly remember what I did.  Even though, I'm considering 
moving to this yeast, but I wonder if something I do is just not 
compatible with certain yeasts. 
 
Anyway I know that #1968 and #1028 are more estery and fruity and I 
don't mind that (I think).  After all, these yeasts are used 
successfully and quite commonly all over the country. 
 
How can I brew a Fuller's or a Young's? 
 
 
Here's what I do to make 10 gallons: 
 
1) I have a 2-quart yeast starter ready two days before brewing.  I always 
   boil the container and sanitize everything I use.  I start with wort from 
   the previous batch. 
 
2) I mash around 22-23 lbs of grains, two-row, Munich, Crystal ... 
   The mash is pretty thick (1.2 quarts/lb grain) and begins with a rest at 
   118.  After 20 mins I ramp to 145-150 and rest for 15-20 mins.  I then 
   ramp to 158 and hold to conversion and mash out at 170. 
 
3) I have a recirculating system consisting of a bucket and pump.  When the 
   bucket is full, the pump goes back on and puts the wort back in the top 
   of the mash (The outlet is submerged to prevent splashing). 
 
4) When the mash is converted, I drain to the boiling kettle (no splashing). 
 
5) I refill the mash tun twice (some splashing here) and drain to the boiling 
   kettle.  I do not recirculate to get the wort clear because it never gets 
   clear.  It's always cloudy, but without particulates. 
 
6) The boil begins immediately and I follow a normal hop schedule for the 
   style and boil for 90 mins. 
 
7) I have a counter-flow chiller which brings things down to 70 degrees 
   and I pitch the yeast immediately upon chilling. 
   O.G. is usually between 1.060 and 1.070. 
 
8) I aerate the wort with an aquarium stone and pump (unfiltered) for about 
   35 minutes as the wort splashes into the stainless steel fermenter. 
 
9) Fermentation takes 6-7 days and final gravities are generally (1.020 to 
   1.016) at 65 degrees. 
 
10) I keg right away and leave rest (in fridge) for a week before applying CO2.
 
Extra Details and Concerns: 
 
I'm worried a bit about hot-side aeration during the recirculating 
mash.  There is some splashing although I've minimized it.  And also 
there is the splashing during the sparge.  But remember, I've used 
this method with some really great beers. 
 
Sometimes after 90 mins of mashing and resting at the final stage of 
158, the mash is still not converted.  So I say 'oh darn it' and I 
mash out anyway.  I seem to have a pretty good extraction rate, about 
80%. 
 
My water has a pH of 7.9 and a hardness of 116 ppm as CaC03.  I add 2 
teaspoons of Gypsum or Burton water salts and that's it.  I've never 
measured the mash pH.  But I am concerned that it might be a bit high. 
I do no other water treatment. 
 
I use mainly American two-row, some specialty malts, but as of yet 
no dextrins. 
 
I wonder if my final gravities are a little high sometimes.  I've been 
seeing alot of 1.020's and 1.022's lately. 
 
 
Rick Walton 
Phillipston, MA 
70410.1112 at compuserve.com 
 

Return to table of contents


From: Terry White <brew at buffnet.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 20:13:43 -0800
Subject: Pump

Hi All, 
 
I am currently setting up a 10 gallon all grain brewery in my garage,  I 
use a 38 quart Coleman cooler as a hot liquor tank, a 10 gallon Igloo 
water cooler with a Easy Masher II as a mash tun and a converted keg on a 
200,000 BTU Cajun Cooker to boil.  What I want to do is set up a gravity 
feed system and I am going to need a good pump to pump hot water from my 
kettle to the hot liquor tank.  Does anyone know where I can find an 
affordable pump that will accomplish this, also what can I expect to pay? 
 
TIA 
Terry 

Return to table of contents


From: Rick Gontarek <gontarek at voicenet.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 19:29:04 -0500
Subject: Lousy extraction, revisited

I am reposting my message from last week, because it was apparently 
eaten by the [none] bug... 
 
 Greetings all, 
 
 
*Warning: this is a rather long post regarding my all-grain setup and 
calculation of extraction efficiencies!* 
 
I seem to perpetually suffer from less-than-decent extraction 
efficiency from my all-grain setup. About twice a year I write to the 
digest whining about my extraction woes, then I get some good advice, 
but it doesn't seem to help much. I was pretty bummed this past 
weekend when I brewed an all-grain pumpkin ale and got pathetic 
numbers. My beers are usually excellent, but I strive to attain better 
extraction numbers given the amount of time I invest in brewing. 
 
If I may provide some details regarding my procedure, maybe some of 
you with similar setups can give me additional advice. 
 
This past weekend I used the following recipe for my Holiday Ale (I 
know, I know, a little late, but better late than never) 
 
4 lbs. Klages 2-row pale malt 
3 lbs. Irek's German Pils malt 
1 lb. crystal malt (40L) 
2 lbs. wheat malt 
1 lb. Victory malt 
~4 lbs. roasted pumpkin flesh 
2 oz Willamette hops (boil) 
1/2 oz. Saaz hops (finishing) 
2 tsp cinnamon 
1/2 tsp nutmeg 
1/2 tsp ground cloves 
1L starter, Wyeast 1007 German Ale Yeast 
 
I have a 10 gallon Gott cooler with a Phil's Phalse bottom. I added 
3.0 gallons of 54degC water to the crushed grains and stabilized the 
temp at 50degC for 30 minutes. Then I added 1.0 gallons of boiling 
water along with the pureed pumpkin (heated to around boiling) and got 
the temp of the mash to 65degC. I held this temp in the cooler for 
just under 90 minutes. Iodine test confirmed starch conversion. I 
added 1 gallon of boiling water to mash out, let the grain bed sit 
undisturbed for 10 minutes, gently recirculated about several quarts 
of the runnings, then sparged with 4-4.5 gallons of 77degC water over 
a period of about 40 minutes. I collected 7 gallons (just about all my 
pot will hold). After the sparge, I measured the gravity and got a 
temperature corrected value of 1.042. 
 
Using extraction potentials from Papazian's book: 
Klages 2row= 35 
German Pils= 38 
Crystal malt= 34 
wheat malt= 37 
victory malt= 34 
 
I calculate the potential original gravity as follows: 
(4x35) + (3x38) + 34 + (2x37) + 34 = 396 
 
Then, 396/7 = 56.5 or 1.0565 maximum original gravity in 7 gallons. 
 
I got 42, so my percent efficiency is 42/56.5 x 100 = 74% 
 
This doesn't seem to be all that bad, but after the boil and removal 
of trub, I wound up with 1.053 in 5 gallons! This is about 67%.  This 
doesn't even take into consideration the contribution to gravity by 
the pumpkin (would the pumpkin contribute much sugar?). 
 
Okay, now for some other details. I grind to  a fairly fine crush in 
my PhilMill. I've used grain that has been milled in my local homebrew 
supply store by a MaltMill, and that makes no difference that I can 
detect. My thermometers are correct, my temperature measurements are 
correct, my mash pH is on target (~5.5), and the gravity of the final 
runnings is less than 1.010. Am I not sparging long enough? I know 
that the longer the better, but am I really losing all of my sugar by 
cutting the sparge down to 40 minutes? Would I notice a vast increase 
in extraction if I simply sparged more slowly? Or maybe with so much 
grain I should mash longer? 
 
Am I calculating my efficiency properly? Many of you might say not to 
worry and just use more grain, but I can't use much more than I am 
using given my limitations for wort collection volume. Why the hell 
can't I get 30 points/lb/gallon instead of the abysmal 24? This really 
frustrates me. Like I said, I think I am still making great beers, but 
I'd really like to get better numbers (hell, at this rate I'd need 200 
lbs of malt to make 5 gallons of barleywine!). 
 
If any of you kind souls would like to make some suggestions regarding 
my extraction, my setup, or my procedure, I would be greatly 
appreciative. 
 
Thanks again for the time. BTW, I have been a subscriber of the HBD 
for about 6 years now, and while there is a lot of BS going on these 
days, I still get a lot out of it. Thanks!! 
 
Rick Gontarek 
Owner/Brewmaster of The Major Groove Picobrewery 
Trappe, PA 
gontarek at voicenet.com 

Return to table of contents


From: 
Date: 
Subject: [none]


Return to table of contents


From: 
Date: 
Subject: [none]


Return to table of contents


From: Edward J. Steinkamp <ejs0742 at dop.fse.ca.boeing.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 13:06:24 PST
Subject: Plastic Pickle Buckets

Here is a summary of responses the question of how to 
remove pickle odor from plastic buckets. 
 
Comments: 
- --------- 
- - Sun gets the smell out. 
 
- - Nothing gets the smell out, even sun, but use them anyway. 
 
- - Nothing gets the smell out, even sun, don't use them. 
 
- - If you can't scrub the smell out then it's not going to come 
  out into your beer. 
 
- - I had the same problem and ... ended up with a "pickled" beer. 
 
- - I have had no off-smells or other problems... <but,> I only 
  use it <the smelly bucket> for lautering and bottling. 
 
 
Methods that were tried, but did not work: 
- ----------------------------------------- 
- - Bleach 
- - TSP 
- - Sun (Probably Seattle sun which is where I live.  The 
  sunshine here comes in drops) 
- - Iodine 
 
 
Methods that were tried and did work: 
- ------------------------------------- 
- - Sun (5 responses) 
- - Baking soda + Sun 
- - California Sun 
- - Arizona Sun 
- - Long soaks with a concentrated oxygen bleach like purex 
  powder or Chlorox II 
- - Mix up a solution of oxygen based sanitizer (B-brite/One 
  Step) at double strength and add 2 cups of fresh baking soda. 
  Fill with hot water to rim and soak overnight.  This works to 
  remove beer/wine flavor/odors, it may remove the dreaded 
  Vlasic volatiles. 
 
Thank you to all that responded. 
 
Ed Steinkamp 

Return to table of contents


From: 
Date: 
Subject: [none]


Return to table of contents


From: Kathi Colaizzi <75444.1225 at compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 23:28:12 -0500
Subject: Networt II Results

For those who don't know, a brief description. 
Networt II was the second open homebrew competition hosted by the Virtual 
Village Homebrew Society, a homebrew club that meets in the Bachus Wine and 
Beer forum on Compuserve. 
This is, as far as we know, the only sanctioned and recognized competition 
to be judged in locations throughout the country with the judges and 
organizing staff connected online. The results were posted live with an 
interactive question period that allowed the entrants to query the judges 
just as they had finished judging. 
Although it was a small competition, the judging was excellent and the 
entrants who were online for the results and awards all had a great time. 
We hope to attract more entries next year. 
 
The Winners of Networt II : 
Light Ales: 
 
1st Place: Fred Wills- English Bitter 
     Wins: A $25 Gift Certificate, Autographed copy of "Using Hops", and 1# 
of One Step! 
 
2nd Place: Dan McLaughlin - E.S.B. 
     Wins: An Autographed copy of "Bock", a Rogue Hat, and 1# of One Step! 
 
3rd Place: Delano DuGarm - I.P.A. 
     Wins: A Sam Adams T-Shirt and 1# of One Step! 
 
 
Dark Ales: 
 
1st Place: Ken Hipple- Imperial Stout 
     Wins: A $25 Gift Certificate, Autographed copy of "Bock", and 1# of 
One Step! 
 
2nd Place: Fred Wills _ Oatmeal Stout 
     Wins: An Autographed copy of "Using Hops", a Rogue Dead Guy Ale 
T-Shirt, and 1# of One Step! 
 
3rd Place: Dan McLaughlin - Porter 
     Wins: A Sam Adams T-Shirt and 1# of One Step! 
 
 
Specialty Beers: 
 
1st Place: Joel Neely - Fruit Beer 
     Wins: A $25 Gift Certificate, Autographed copy of "Bock", and 1# of 
One Step! 
 
2nd Place: David Smith - Fruit beer 
     Wins: An Autographed copy of "Using Hops", a Rogue Hat, and 1# of One 
Step! 
 
3rd Place: Steve Gale - Pumpkin Beer 
     Wins: A Sam Adams T-Shirt and 1# of One Step! 
 
 
High Gravity: 
 
1st Place: Steve Tuttle - Metheglyn 
     Wins: A $25 Gift Certificate, Autographed copy of "Using Hops", and 1# 
of One Step! 
 
2nd Place: Fred Wills - Barleywine 
     Wins: An Autographed copy of "Using Hops", a Rogue Dead Guy Ale 
T-Shirt, and 1# of One Step! 
 
3rd Place: John Huegel - Cyser 
     Wins: A Sam Adams T-Shirt and 1# of One Step! 
 
 
German Beers: 
 
1st Place: Fred Stone - Weizen 
     Wins: A $25 Gift Certificate, Autographed copy of "Bock", and 1# of 
One Step! 
 
2nd Place: Jeff Corwith - Kolsch 
     Wins: An Autographed copy of "Bock", a Pete's OFest T-Shirt, and 1# of 
One Step! 
 
3rd Place: Rita Liotta - Kolsch 
     Wins: A Pete's OFest T-Shirt and 1# of One Step! 
 
 
Belgian Ales: 
 
1st Place: John Huegel- Belgian Strong Ale 
     Wins: A $25 Gift Certificate, Autographed copy of "Using Hops", and 1# 
of One Step! 
 
2nd Place: Joel Neeley - Wit 
     Wins: An Autographed copy of "Bock", a Sam Adams T-Shirt, and 1# of 
One Step! 
 
3rd Place: Steve Gale - Oud Bruin 
     Wins: A PWA T-Shirt and 1# of One Step! 
 
 
Best of Show: Fred Stone - Weizen 
        Wins: A $50 Gift Certificate to St Patrick's of Texas & a 
beautiful Engraved Crystal Mug. 
 
 
Many Thanx to our Fantastic Sponsors! 
 
 St Patrick's of Tx 
 LOGIC, Inc. 
 Southbay Homebrew Supply 
 The Home Brewery (NJ) 
 Pete's Wicked Brewing Co 
 Boston Beer Co 
 Rogue Ales 
 HopTech 
 Crafty Fox 
 Listermann Manufacturing 
 Vandberg/Dewulf 
 Bacchus Data Services 
 
These results as well as upcoming information regarding Networt III can be 
found on the web at http://www.li.net/~brewman/netwrt2.htm 

Return to table of contents


From: Gitay Kryger <kryger at sgjs6.weizmann.ac.il>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 13:33:11 +0200 (EET)
Subject: Looking for a small used brewing system

Dear fellow brewers, 
 
I am looking for a small used brewing system in the range of 2-4 BBL, 
with all the components, tanks and peripherals. If any of you knows of 
such a system or has any comments, please feel free to write me to the 
privet e-mail address. 
 
Also, if anyone out there has any experience with a commercially 
available system of this size such as DME Natural Brew (3.5 BBL) or 
any other, please would you share it with me ? 
 
Thanks, 
 
Gitay 
 
============================================================================== 
Gitay Kryger, Ph.D.             Voice:  +972-8-934-3759 
Dept. of Structural Biology       Fax:  +972-8-934-4159 
The Weizmann Institute       Cellular:  +972-52-494-725 
Rehovot, 76100               Internet:  kryger at sgjs4.weizmann.ac.il 
ISRAEL                            WWW:  http://www.weizmann.ac.il/~jsgrp/gitay 
============================================================================== 
 
 

Return to table of contents


From: Tom Martin <martiniii at 3lefties.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 96 05:57 MST
Subject: Root Beer

How does one find out how to do home brewed root beer?  Do you have that 
info or should I check elsewhere? 
 
Thanks for your help. 
 
Tom Martin 
TS&S Eateries 
819 Parkland Drive 
Penthouse Suite 
Clovis, NM  88101-4430 
 
Phone or fax (505)769-1898 
martiniii at 3lefties.com 
 

Return to table of contents


From: MaltyDog at aol.com
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 08:11:28 -0500
Subject: American Dunkle?

In Homebrew Digest 2271, George De Piro Said: 
 
 
"If you want to make a hoppy, dark lager, just throw the pellets of your 
choice into the secondary.  They will settle in two weeks and you can siphon 
the beer off the junk.  Just don't call it a Munich Dunkle. " 
 
Yes, George, but what should we call it? Well, following in the great 
tradition ofAmerican Pale Ales and American Brown Ales, why don't we call it 
an AMERICAN DUNKLE? 
 
This could be the start of a whole new brewing tradition. American brewers 
can 
come up with a new style of beer by taking an established European style, 
whether German, Belgian, English or whatever, using all-American ingredients, 
and PILING ON THE AMERICAN HOPS IN HUGE QUANTITIES! CASCADE! CASCADE! 
CHINOOK! CHINOOK! Or, in a pinch, centennial. This could be the start of an 
American brewing renaissance! 
 
Oh, never mind. American homebrewers are doing that already. 
 
Bill Coleman 
MaltyDog at aol.com 

Return to table of contents


From: ajdel at mindspring.com (A. J. deLange)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 13:46:35 -0500
Subject: More on O2 and Yeast

I had a couple of e-mails on yesterday's post asking good questions and I 
think the answers are probably of general interest. 
 
Andy Walsh asked why I did the yeast experiment with such a low pitching rate. 
I wanted to make things tough for the yeast i.e. a puny initial count in 
what has been posted to be about twice the toxic level of O2 and I wanted 
to have them subject to this level for several hours as I expected toxic 
effects to take several hours to appear if they appeared at all. If I had 
pitched at a nominal rate I'd have been fiddling with the O2 every few 
minutes and all the sugar would have been eaten in a couple of hours. 
 
This leads to questions from Brian Bliss and Dave Burley. What happens 
after the high level of supplied O2 is removed? Will the yeast continue to 
consume O2 until there is none left? The answer is yes as long as other 
nutrients are available for growth. Certainly in a wort these other 
nutrients should be there but this points out what I think is the major 
disadvantage to such high O2 levels: more of the sugar goes into yeast 
biomass than normal (less alcohol for you!) and more than normal amounts of 
growth phase metabolic products are discharged into the beer. As I have 
mentioned in earlier posts the ester content of beers can be manipulated to 
some extent by controlling the oxygenation level. 
 
Dave's question was about the source of the toxicity reports. I haven't 
shown (or even demonstrated) that there were no toxic effects; only that 
the yeast were able to reproduce at a nominally normal rate (double every 
hour) under the high O2 levels. I did not brew with these yeast! In a 
complete investigation of this subject one would have to do that in order 
to see if the brewing properties were changed by this treatment. It is also 
very likely that different strains of yeast would respond to high levels of 
O2 in different ways. Also toxicity could be defined in a lot of different 
ways. 
 
Dave also asked how long it would take for undisturbed boiled wort in an 
open vessel to come to 02 equilibrium with the air. To reach equilibrium 
would take forever but I expect (based on Sunday's experiments) that it 
would take a long time to reach say 90% of saturation, depending on 
container geometry. The rate of transfer of O2 into or out of wort depends 
on the O2 partial pressure difference across the wort-air interface and the 
area of this interface. This is true for inflow as well as outgo so the 
experimental numbers for the stockpot are somewhat applicable. It took 
about three hours for the DO level to drop from 66% above saturation to 58% 
above saturation in the experiment. Water in the same pot should thus move 
from 66% below saturation to 58% below saturation in about the same time. 
 
Andy also pointed out a typo: 1.3E5 cells is 130,000 (not 13,000 as in the 
post) and asked (as did Brian) how the cell counts were done. I used a 
haemocytometer. This is a special microscope slide with rulings graved on 
it in a 1 mm x 1 mm square (which is subdivided into 25 smaller squares). 
There are ridges which hold the cover slip 0.1 mm above the surface so that 
when a drop of fluid is under the coverslip you have 1E-4 cc of fluid 
within the 1 mm square. One counts the cells within the 1 mm square (the 25 
smaller boxes help you keep track of where you are) and multiplies by 1E4 
to get the total per mL. 
 
Brian also wanted to know how many yeast per mL of slurry. I think that 
this must vary quite a bit with the size of the yeast (as he suggested) and 
especially with how tightly they are packed which is a function of how long 
you have allowed them to sit and how badly they get diluted when you try to 
get them out of the starter vessel. Are we dealing with slurry or paste? 
For what it's worth I usually find that about 100 - 150  ml of slurry for 
each 5 gallons of wort gets me into th 8E6 - 12E6 /mL range. 
 
A. J. deLange 
- - Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore. 
Please Note New e-mail Address 
 
 

Return to table of contents