(formerly Volume 02 : Number 006)



Contents:
  Re: partial-mashing/yeast bite
  autolysis
  RE: Simple No Sparge
  Re: no-sparge
  Re: Simple explanation of no-sparge technique
  Re: Need help with electric thermometer
  No sparge / AHA-AOB
  Aroma hopping
  Partial Mash Confusion (maybe/maybe not)
  Mailing Brew....
  Unfermentable sugars (Aaron Herrick)
  Re: Homebrew Digest V2 #5
  FWH, Flavor, Aroma, and IBUs
  re: Wyeast #1728
  Measuring Volume in Kettle
  Please, drop the subject
  Maple Syrup Figures
  RE:Partial Mash Confusion
  Yeasty taste
  Re: Wife Ale / Mashing Rice
  yeast banking question
  Low starting gravity concerns
  Re: Handling Specialty and Adjunct grains
  Shepherd Neame Bishops Finger Kentish Ale
  In defense of partial mash (at least mine)
  Wort Aeration question...


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 12:33:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Dave Riedel <RIEDEL at ios.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: partial-mashing/yeast bite

Alex Santic <alex at salley.com> writes:

>Subject: Re: yeast bite

>disintegrating yeast cells. However, partial mash techniques could account
>for some harsh bitterness and/or astringency, depending on how you do it. 
	[snip]
>In an all-grain procedure, runnings from the grains are recirculated
>(using the grain bed as a filter) until they are clear. This eliminates
>starch and husk particles from the boil and helps assure a smooth flavor. 
>I am somewhat dubious about the effects of the typical partial mash
>procedure, which is to simply dump the liquid into the boil. 
	[snip]

Hmmm... I'm not sure I completely understand what you are talking about.
Where is this 'typical' partial-mash procedure outlined?  In my partial-mash
procedure, I mash about 4-4.5 lbs of malt+specialties in a kettle in the
oven (set to 150F to reduce heat loss), transfer the mash to a Zapap, recirc.
until clear, then sparge to about 4 gallons total wort.  I dissolve my extracts
into this wort and do a split boil on the stove-top.  Granted, I haven't yet
monitored pH (mash or sparge) or the gravity of the final runnings, but to the
best of my knowledge, this is no different than all-grain mashing/sparging
except the volume is smaller.  If I could do a full-boil, I'd do all-grain.
[I'm currently setting up an all-grain system, so don't mail me and tell me
how simple it is, thanks].

I can't say whether or not this method is vastly superior to straight-extract,
since I haven't really done any direct comparisons.  But, I'm getting practice
doing the full process and I've been pleased with the results.

Thanks for the comments on yeast-bite.  Since my beer did not sit on the yeast
in the secondary for very long, I'm getting the impression that the judges
may have identified 'harsh bitterness' attributable to something other than
yeast.  Any thoughts on that?

cheers, 
Dave Riedel (Victoria, BC, Canada) 
*Still in support of digest-only, 50K/day and cancellation option*

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Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 16:05:20 -0600
From: "James R. Layton 972.952.3718 JLAY" <layton at sc45.dseg.ti.com>
Subject: autolysis

Here's a subject that comes up now and again: autolysis.

I'm not sure that the problem I had in one batch last year was autolysis 
or not, but it had a most disgusting and unmistakeable rubbery odor and
taste. I suspect autolysis but I believe it was Greg Noonan who wrote that
rubbery flavor could be caused by an infection.

Details from memory: An all-grain double bock, OG about 1.074. Pitched Wyeast
2124 from a 1 quart starter (I know, underpitched, but this has worked for me 
with OGs in the 1.050 range) into 50F wort. Long lag time, about 2 days as I
recall (notes at home). Primary ferment at 50F, took maybe 3 weeks. Noticed
the rubber odor when racked to secondary. Also noted that the yeast at the
bottom of the carboy was a rusty-brown color. Lagered for several more weeks
at 35F, primed and bottled. Rubber odor and flavor were quite strong. I was
concerned at this point but hoped that age and more lagering would work it
out. Sampled a bottle every month or so for 8 months. Carbonation was fine,
no gushers. The rubber taste did fade somewhat but never got to the point that
I could finish a bottle. I gave up on it at this point. It's still the only
batch I've ever dumped. Too bad, the beer otherwise seemed fine.

I've made good lagers prior to and since that batch, but I'm not going to try
a high gravity beer like that again without a 5 gallon starter.

I'd like to know if others have had a similar experience.

Jim Layton  (Howe, TX)

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Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 16:58 PST
From: Charles Burns <cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us>
Subject: RE: Simple No Sparge

Alex describes a simple sparge technique, but I'm not sure about when to add 
what qty of water:

        So, do i thin out the original mash or do I dump in hot water at the 
end of a mash? EG: I usually begin a mash with .75 qt/lb and do a short 
(15min) protein rest at 140F. I then add 1.5 gallons of boiling water to 
bring the mash up over 155F and let it convert for 60minutes.

        This would give me about 2 gallons of total wort (i think). I need 
7-7.5 for a 90 minute boil. Where / When do I add the other 5-5.5 gallons?
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
Charles Burns, Director, Information Systems
Elk Grove Unified School District
cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us, http://www.egusd.k12.ca.us
916-686-7710 (voice), 916-686-4451 (fax)
http://www.el-dorado.ca.us/~cburns/

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Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 17:51:54 -0800
From: Kelly Jones <kejones at ptdcs2.intel.com>
Subject: Re: no-sparge

I think the assumption for this technique is that whatever it is that
contributes 'maltiness', mostly comes out in the first runnings.  Thus, if
you do Batch A with 9 pounds of grain, and dilute the first runnings with
sparged runnings, you'll get a wort with some OG and the maltiness of 9
pounds of grain.  If you do Batch B with  12 pounds of malt, take the first
runnings, and then dilute with water, you'll get the same OG as Batch A,
but the all the 'maltiness' of 12 pounds of grain.

Haven't tried it myself yet, so I don't know if the assumption is correct.
- -- 
Kelly

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Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 21:28:59 -0500 (EST)
From: Alex Santic <alex at salley.com>
Subject: Re: Simple explanation of no-sparge technique

>From Charles Burns:

>Alex describes a simple sparge technique, but I'm not sure about when to
>add what qty of water...So, do i thin out the original mash or do I dump
>in hot water at the end of a mash? EG: I usually begin a mash with .75
>qt/lb and do a short (15min) protein rest at 140F. I then add 1.5 gallons
>of boiling water to bring the mash up over 155F and let it convert for 60
>minutes. This would give me about 2 gallons of total wort (i think). I
>need 7-7.5 for a 90 minute boil. Where / When do I add the other 5-5.5
>gallons? 

I didn't think through the additional complications of doing this as an
infusion mash. I do a stovetop mash, so whatever water/grain ratio I want
is what I start with and end with. For true infusion mashers, my advice
might not be as simple as I had imagined it was, since it specifies
collecting a specific volume of wort without sparging, and hence relies on
ending up with a very specific mash thickness. 

One point I'd like to stress is that I was suggesting a straightforward 
approach that worked perfectly for me in practice. I don't claim long 
expertise in using this first-runnings approach, and there are doubtless 
other approaches which will work in practice. George Fix, for instance, 
doesn't address the issue of mash thickness. He just says to drain the 
grain bed and you should have 2/3 of your extract. Mash thickness will 
have an effect on this, but we don't know exactly how much. I based my 
approach on the principles of parti-gyle brewing, which suggest that the 
first *half* of your wort volume will have 2/3 of the extract. To collect 
1/2 the wort without sparging, mash thickness is the variable you need to 
manipulate.

This might make a real infusion mash more complicated to calculate, and 
it won't appeal to people who swear by a particular approach to mash 
thickness. Notwithstanding issues of enzyme activity and stability, I 
personally believe this gets down to splitting technical hairs. Your 
enzymes will work, your starches will convert, the beer will come out 
good across a range of water/grist ratios.

To answer Charles' specific question about when and where to add water, 
here's an example. Let's say we want to make a beer of 50 points original
gravity, and we normally collect 7 gallons of wort and boil down to 5.5
gallons at our desired OG. If we normally get 85% extraction, we count on
2/3 of that or 56% efficiency. This indicates we need 13 lbs of grain which 
will absorb about .55 quarts per lb for a total of about 1.75 gallons. To
collect 3.5 gallons of wort (1/2 the total), we need to have added 5.25 
gallons of water to the grain by the end of the mash. The final mash 
thickness winds up being 1.6 qts/lb, which is incidental but within 
normal parameters.

We dilute the 3.5 gallons of collected wort with 3.5 gallons of water in 
the kettle and proceed with the boil.

- --
Alex Santic - alex at salley.com
Silicon Alley Connections, LLC
527 Third Avenue #419 - NYC 10016 - 212-213-2666 - Fax 212-447-9107
http://www.salley.com

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Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 02:47:23 GMT
From: stencil at bcn.net (stencil)
Subject: Re: Need help with electric thermometer

>[... electric analog thermometer ... there are
>several numbers and some letters (FSIDCMA).=20
>...]

I fear that what you've got there is merely a meter movement with a
custom-printed scale card.  The legend on the back comes across to me
as "full scale 1 DC milliampere,"  and you're still short all the
external circuitry.  Sorry.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

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Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 23:40:44 -0600
From: Louis Bonham <lkbonham at i-link.net>
Subject: No sparge / AHA-AOB

In response to my recent reply, John Wilkinson has a few more thoughts
on no sparge brewing:

> Louis thinks I missed the point and am confusing gravity with maltiness but I
> don't think so.  My point is that if no sparge brewing really works then it
> must matter how much water is in the tun at run off.  [snip]

> If anyone knows why no sparge brewing results in more maltiness I have
> not seen the explanation.  Of course, this would not be the only thing about
> brewing that is not completely understood.  

Like Jeff, I don't claim to fully understand the biochemical nature of
the 
process, and I don't have access to a lab with an HPLC or gas
chromatagraph to 
do a comparative assay of sparged v. non-sparged worts.  [If anyone has
the lab 
know-how, access to this kind of equipment, and the desire to
collaborate on an 
article on this topic, I'll gladly do the test brews [same format as my
RIMS v. decoction experiment], provide copies of the relevant ASBC
methods of analysis and samples of test worts, and write the whole thing
up for publication (in BT, of 
course).]  

What I *do* know from experience is that this process produces a maltier
beer -- absolutely, positively, and beyond any doubt.
   
> I suppose the best thing to do is try it and see.

Please do.  You'll be pleased with the results, even if the process
seems counterintuitive. :)

=================================================================================
Karen Barela has also recently cross-posted her reply to recent
AHA-criticisms 
that have been aired in rec.crafts.brewing.  I and other have aired
exhaustive 
rebuttals in that forum, and rather than use limited HBD bandwidth I'll
simply 
urge interested people to read them there (or e-mail me if you wish). 
However,
I must respond to the recent post of a new homebrewer who seems to think 
that the critiques of the AHA are from a tiny, "impatient and
intolerent" 
minority:  

The points at issue -- such as questions regarding the AHA/AOB's
finances and 
claimed non-profit nature, the refusal of the AHA/AOB bureaucracy to
permit 
members any say in the governance of those organizations, the AHA
bureaucracy's 
refusal to consult or heed the advice of its "Board of Advisors," etc.
- -- are 
very serious and have been raised not just by HBD readers but by members
of the 
AHA's own Board of Advisors and by many well-respected members of the
homebrewing
community.  Mr. Andrews, while you are, of course, free to make your own
judgments,
I urge you to investigate all the facts before doing so.  You might be
surprised.

Back to brewing.

Louis K. Bonham		lkbonham at i-link.net

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Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 23:20:33 -0700 (MST)
From: Hugh Graham <hugh at lamar.ColoState.EDU>
Subject: Aroma hopping

This is my second attempt to have this message digested.
Nonetheless, ain't it great to have the HBD back?

Aroma Hopping
- -------------
I just bottled 10.5 gallons of a promising ESB today (this was Sunday),
the recipe used Hugh Baird pale ale malt (19lb as I recall),
Hugh Baird crystal (1.5 lb 80 LV) and 1/2 lb Belgian White
wheat malt.  Oh, and a pound of brown cane sugar.
Recipe inspired by Wheeler and Protz.  Batemans XXXB-like.
I toured that brewery once.  Anyway... 

'Twas hopped with 2oz Columbus (10.0%, 90mins boil)
and 2 oz Goldings (5.0 %, split into 20 10, & 0 mins
additions).  Irish moss added at 30 mins.

OG 1.055, as I recall, FG 1.012.  Wyeast London ESB yeast starter (2 quarts).

I mention all this because I was so happy with the hop profile at
bottling, in terms of bitterness and flavor. Those Columbus hops are
marvelous. (Maltiness and body were also great, IMHO). 

But, in this batch as with many other brews, a noticeable hop aroma
escapes us, even with the above mentioned late kettle additions.  We've
tried dry hopping and hop teas with little noticeable success.  Perchance
our fermentations are too vigorous for the late additions.  Perhaps our
hop teas are over boiled.  Maybe our dry hops are too well confined in a
little muslin bag for adequate flavor transfer.  Maybe it's my nose, my
brewing buddy claims to be able to detect some hop aroma, and I detect hop
aroma in a couple of dry hopped beers we have made, but certainly not
enough.  Possibly our hops are stale.  They've been frozen since they were
purchased in bulk from a new shipment, however.  Another recent batch used
home grown cascades as a late kettle addition.  Still no aroma.  Beers we've
entered into competitions get low marks for hop aroma.

We use an in-line chiller, so our late kettle additions tend to steep for 
a long time in the hot wort that's waiting to be chilled.  Perhaps that's 
the problem.  FWH won't help as this only contributes to hop flavor..

Any advice appreciated.

What is your favorite technique for achieving a pleasing hop aroma?
How long should a hop tea be boiled?  Should it be boiled at all?
Thanks in advance.

- -----Late night at work peeve section-----
BTW, I've seen a couple of references here and in r.c.b recently to
'Bitters' as in 'Special Bitters'.  As a confirmed Brit, this sounds all
wrong to me.  Beer is always just 'Bitter'.  _Bitters_ is used in
cocktails.  I'll take one champagne cocktail.  Or maybe just a pint of
your best bitter, landlord. Thank you. 
Furthermore, when will some enterprising micro brew a tiny batch of beer
with one hop cone in it so that those annoying Keystone TV commercials can
be stopped?  I got your bitter beer face right here pal. 
- -----
Hugh in Ft. Collins CO.  Going to try a bottle of that ESB tonight.  Yippee.

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Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 08:08:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Alex Santic <alex at salley.com>
Subject: Partial Mash Confusion (maybe/maybe not)

From: Denis Barsalo <denisb at cam.org>:

>Im sorry Alex, but I think you're confused as to what a partial
>mash is! A partial mash is a mini-mash. It's done exactly the same as a
>full-mash using the same grain to water ratio, except that you use less
>grain than a full mash. To make a 5 gallon batch, you get the rest of your
>fermentable from LME, DME and/or Sugar.

Well, I know what a partial mash is but I have noticed that some sources
don't get much into lautering technique and often advise people to simply
strain the liquid from the grains at the end of the mash. That's why I
said that it depends on how you do it...you seem to be doing it in the
optimal manner. I think you would agree that it might explain the original
poster's astringency problem if he were not filtering the extract from the
partial mash. 

>BTW, Ive been told that some mashers actually don't mash their
>specialty malts (Crystal, Roasted, Chocolate, etc.). They just mash the
>2-row, 6-row, Munich, etc. and then they either add the specialty malts at
>the end of the mash, or steep it in the kettle. What does everybody else
>do???

On the subject of when to add specialty grains...I just mix them in with
the total grist. That's the typical commercial method, although some
homebrewers like to steep them at the end of the mash or in the kettle. 
Frankly I'd be surprised if it made a perceptible difference in quality
assuming good mashing technique either way. There could also be the
occasional gotcha, such as very light crystal malts that still have some
unconverted starch. 

- --
Alex Santic - alex at salley.com
Silicon Alley Connections, LLC
527 Third Avenue #419 - NYC 10016 - 212-213-2666 - Fax 212-447-9107
http://www.salley.com

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Date: 13 Dec 96 08:31:19 EST
From: aesoph at ncemt1.ctc.com (Aesoph, Michael)
Subject: Mailing Brew....

Dear Collective:



	All of my relatives in the distant, far away land of South Dakota want 
to sample some of my homebrew.  Are there any problems associated with 
mailing homebrew??  i.e.   Is it legal??



==================================================

        Michael D. Aesoph                Associate Engineer

==================================================

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Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 07:31:24 -0600
From: "Aaron Herrick" <chemstat at phoenix.net>
Subject: Unfermentable sugars (Aaron Herrick)

Joshua Archer wrote:

>I was wondering if anyone had any idea of how to
>'sweeten' a wine/cider and still plan on carbonating it by adding priming
>sugar before bottling. 
[snip]
> so are there methods of adding sugars that will
>not ferment, yet still taste okay in the brew? any suggestion or
experience
>on the subject?  

My experience has been that brewing yeasts cannot ferment lactose, or milk
sugar.  I'd suggest using this.  Keep in mind that lactose has a different
taste threshold than other sugars, so experiment by adding measured amounts
of lactose to a similar wine/cider.

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Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 08:41:24 -0500 (EST)
From: "Steven A. Smith" <steven.a.smith.1 at gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest V2 #5

Please remove my name from the digest's distribution list.

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Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 09:06:47 EST
From: Barry Wertheimer <wertheim at libra.law.utk.edu>
Subject: FWH, Flavor, Aroma, and IBUs

Greetings,

There has been some renewed discussion recently in the renewed HBD  
about FWH.  To summarize, a few folks have commented that it imparts
very nice hop flavor, and not much in the way of aroma (late kettle
hopping and dry hopping being the way to go for hop aroma).  This is
consistent with my observations  (my observations are haphazard;  I have
not done identical batches with and without FWH in order to compare).

What I am wondering about is the bitterness contributions from FWH.
As I recall the original discussions about FWH, it was speculated
that first wort hops add some bitterness, but not as much as if they
had been thrown in the kettle after the boil had begun.  Again, my
observations seem to support this, but I was wondering what others
have experienced.  Anyone have a guess, or data, as to the IBUs
contributed by first wort hops v. the IBUs that would be contibuted
if the same hops were instead added when the boil commences?  Do you
get 1/2 the IBUs?  3/4?  Any ideas?

Barry Wertheimer

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Date: 13 Dec 1996 14:06:28 -0000
From: MASSIMO FARAGGI <maxfarag at hotmail.com>
Subject: re: Wyeast #1728

Hi all, here is 1 datapoint about "#1728 and smoke" as requested by somebody: 

I have recently used Wyeast Scottish #1728. 
(It has been my first and only liquid yeast actually).
I have just tasted last night my first bottle (1 month old) and noticed NO
smokey or peaty flavour; maybe it was too subtle to notice,  I was just
checking the beer for carbonation etc; (BTW beer is good but still too young).

Some data:

Wyeast pack was quite old (5-6 months) and had swollen only a bit after 3 days;
starter was about 1 pint and was active within 36 hours.
The beer was a "Bier de Garde" about 1062 OG. (Malt Extract, Crystal,
Caramunch; N.Brewer and Hallertau hops to 25-30 BU).
Areation was just by stirring and rousing.
Fermentation started after 5-6 hours and was very fast (1061-->1016 in  2 days)
Temperature between 20-21 C (please translate yourself to F!), slighty higher
during the first few hours.
Open-fermented in plastic; no secondary; bottled after 8 days.

I made a Barley Wine then and fermented it directly on the yeast sediment of
the previous beer; it started almost immediately and went very fast from 1098
to 1022; I still have to taste it; I'll report about its "smoke" charachter (if
any).

Cheers

Massimo Faraggi       GENOVA - ITALY
maxfarag at hotmail.com

- ---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
- ---------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 09:11:51 EST
From: Barry Wertheimer <wertheim at libra.law.utk.edu>
Subject: Measuring Volume in Kettle

Greetings,

Before the hiatus, there was some discussion starting as to how
people tell how much liquid is in their brew kettles (usually a
converted keg).  Someone suggested making indelible marks on a wooden
dowel representing various volume levels and using the dowel as a
measuring device.  Is there a good way to safely (for the keg), and
legibly, mark volume levels directly on the inside of a converted
keg?

Barry Wertheimer

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Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 08:58:26 -0500
From: WOLFF.R.C- at postal.essd.northgrum.com (WOLFF.R.C-)
Subject: Please, drop the subject

     Dave Burley,
     I hereby publicly apologize for the crass message I posted to the HBD. 
     The hbd is for ALL to use and comment on brewing etc.  I posted the 
     message and felt badly.  Please excuse me.
     To the people who responded to me:
     Some comments were written in a very gentle tone to perhaps inform me 
     of my mistake in a gentlemanly way-Thank you.
     Two were very hostile and would be better off forgotten, maybe they 
     also had a bad day.
     Now to the crux of the matter;
     On the last posting there was a  message  placed by hogan at connecti.com
     stating that my type of message was one of the reasons for the HBD 
     being down for awhile. That is rather far stretched.  As for their 
     response to me_I never received one-.
     I think that it was in very bad taste to repost this and bring it back 
     up for no reason whatsoever other than for whatever MS/MR Hogan 
     thought they were accomplishing.  Not only does it again slap at Mr. 
     Burley(the innocent in this matter) but it allows others who didn't 
     see it get to comment on the stupid posting that I did. 
     If someone has a problem with me, personally, and you really want to 
     confront me over something as stupid as this here is the number
     410-552-2514. Leave a message or your number if I don't answer I WILL 
     RETURN YOUR CALL_OK MS/MR HOGAN. This has really pissed me off and I 
     would appeciate it if you didn't pull this type of S--T again. 
     To everyone !
     PLEASE just forget this whole incident and lets get on with the HBD 
     for its real publishing--MAKING BEER-NOT WAR!!
     
     To all of you who know me I apologize to you twofold.
     
     Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
     
     Bob Wolff
     SEnior Chemical Engineer
     Northop Grumman Corp 
     Baltimore
     
     "I have a high art-I wound with cruelty those who wound me"
     
      

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Date: Fri, 13 Dec 96 07:27:37 mst
From: "Barry Blakeley" <BlakeleB at den.disa.mil>
Subject: Maple Syrup Figures

     
          How's it going, eh?
     
          I need to know the important figures for maple syrup in brewing, 
     i.e. SG, Lovibond, etc.  Your assistance is greatly appreciated.
     
          Keep your sticks on the ice!
     
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                      darn floor
      Barry Blakeley               Webslinger
   blakeleb at den.disa.mil      DISA Support Activity
      (303)676-1710           Denver, Colorado  USA
                       big bite
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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Date: 13 Dec 96  9:30:11 EDT
From: Ted Sadler/VENTANA <Ted_Sadler/VENTANA.ITP at lgate.vmedia.com>
Subject: RE:Partial Mash Confusion

Denis Barsalo replied to Alex Santic with:

[snip]
>> Again, I disagree. I made myself a Zapap lauter tun and took the
>> plunge into partial mashes by my third or fourth batch. The difference in
>> the taste of the beer was obvious right from the start. I think it's a
>> great way to get into grain brewing without buying anymore equipment. Once
>> you've saved up, you can go out and get something big enough to boil 7
>> gallons in, then you take the next step and go all-grain.

I just cracked open the results of batch #9 which was my second attempt at a 
partial mash so yes I'm still a newbie and yes I'm still working at some bugs 
in my process. But I work with 4 other homebrewers and we all agree this is my 
best batch yet. Not only is the head retention good, but it's got great 
mouthfeel and flavor - even the "extract tang" is hardly noticeable! And do you 
know what? The only extra equipment it required was two extra muslin bags. I 
threw all the crushed grains into them, did a step-infusion mash, "sparged" 
into a second pot of water at 170F and then carried on with the brewing like a 
normal extract. When I have the money, time and space for all-grain, I'll 
definitely move up since my partial mash experiment was so successful. But for 
now, partial mash seems to make a tremendous improvement in the finished 
product with very little added effort or cost.


Off subject, anyone who feels compelled to complain about AHA/AOB, how about 
doing that in direct email to them; This is not the "B*&!#h at AHA Digest". 
Thanks.

Ted Sadler
Strength is the ability to break a chocolate bar into four pieces with your 
bare hands.
And eat only one piece.

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Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 14:32:29 -0000
From: Graham Stone <gstone at dtuk.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Yeasty taste

In a conversation with a chap connected with the Hopback brewery in 
Salisbury, UK we were talking about the problems home brewer have 
reproducing commercial beers - I was trying to reproduce Summer Lightning. 
 He passed a comment which I didn't pick up on immediately and so I didn't 
question.  He said that if I was only brewing 5 gals at a time, I would 
never be able to totally reproduce the commercial brew.  Why would the 
length of brew affect it's consequent taste/character?  Any ideas?

Another point he made which I do understand to be correct is that we home 
brewers rarely pitch enough yeast.  He suggested that if I wanted to brew 5 
gals at a time, 1/2 pint of yeast slurry would be the minimum necessary and 
2 pints would not be too much.  Furthermore, he added that he thought that 
60% of the fine taste of the beer comes from the yeast.  Another point I 
picked up but I'm not sure I understand is that yeast may be reused from 
one batch to the next but only up to 3 times.  After that it should be 
restarted from a seed culture (or original bottled beer I guess).

I have been using the yeast from 4 bottle Summer Lightning (available in 
the UK from some branches of Odd Bins) and have so far brewed over 100 gals 
of beer from it.  Typically, I ferment for 7 days before racking off the 
bulk of the yeast into another container from where I ferment for another 7 
days.  I recover the yeast thrown down in the second container and use it 
in the next batch of beer (occasionally, I have used the stuff from the 
first fermentation vessel).  Interesting, I have noticed a gradual 
reduction in the activity of the yeast (as evidenced by the head/crust 
formation during fermentation) and a slight decrease in the quality of the 
taste in general.  Now, just of complicate matters further, I have a 
problem controlling the temperature of the room where I ferment.  In the 
summer, the room stays pretty well constant between 18-20C day and night. 
 However, in the winter because the house is not heated during the day, the 
temperature can fluctuate from about 15-24C.  So, should I be looking to 
restart my yeast more often or could the cause of the problem be the 
fluctuation in fermentation temperatures?  Has anybody got a solution to 
the temperature fluctuation problem?

Finally, what is a reasonable length of time to condition a 5 gal batch of 
OG about 1050?

Graham Stone
Portsmouth, UK

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Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 10:31:45 -0500
From: nerenner at umich.edu (Jeff Renner)
Subject: Re: Wife Ale / Mashing Rice

Paul Ferrara <prf at cherry-semi.com> asked about a lighter ale using rice for
his wife.

My suggestion is to use German (or German-American) hops to get a more
familiar flavor for a Michelob drinker, and a neutral yeast such as 1056.
Cook the rice thoroughly with plenty of water and some of the malt to keep
it from becoming a sticky lump.  Hold it at 153F for a half hour before
boiling it for a half hour.  Then add it to the rest of the mash which has
been at 122F protein rest for 20 minutes or so.  If you are lucky, this
will bring the mash up to 153F saccharification temperature, but you may
need to adjust with some cold or boiling water.  Uncle Ben's is
unnecessarily expensive, but should work fine.  Since it is parboiled, it
may not actually need cooking, but you do need to thoroughly soften it, and
cooking is the fastest way.  It wouldn't hurt to coarsely grind it.  (I
recently saw an ad for a fancy dog food which proudly proclaimed that one
of their premium ingredients was "brewer's rice."  Hell, brewer's rice is
just cheap broken rice that can't be sold to folks who want to eat whole
kernels.)

Now if you really want to please both her and you, make a light (1.042)
version of Classic American Pilsner with 20-25% flaked corn, 20-25 IBU,
lager yeast and lager fermentation at 48F and lagering at 33F.  Flaked corn
needs no cooking. Or maybe even an unlight version (OG 1.048, 30+IBU).  My
non-beer drinking wife has actually asked for a glass of CAP, and a woman
visitor a month ago pronounced it the best beer she had ever had.  That
nonsense about American brewers constantly lightening the flavor of their
beers over the last 50 years is just that - nonsense.  CAP is a newly AHA
recognized style, so save a few bottles and enter them in the Nationals.

- -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu

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Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 10:17:37 -0600
From: Robert DeNeefe <rdeneefe at compassnet.com>
Subject: yeast banking question

I'm getting interested in yeast banking and I have a question that I
can't find an answer to.  How long can one maintain a specific culture?
 The Brewtek kit (http://www.brewtek.com) mentions that yeast on slants
will remain stable for 9 to 12 months.  What do you do after that?  Do
you buy a pure strain to culture from or can you reculture from your
slants that are reaching maturity?  It seems that you should be able to
reculture since the yeast companies obviously keep one strain going for
ages, but I'm not sure if this requires some special techniques or
equipment (ultra sterile environment, strong microscopes, etc.) that
wouldn't be an option for a homebrewer like me.  Yeast ranchers, I'm
all ears!

 Robert

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Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 08:47:19 -0800 (PST)
From: palmer at San-Jose.ate.slb.com (Eric Palmer)
Subject: Low starting gravity concerns

Lino V Serrano <Lino_V_Serrano at ccm.rr.intel.com> writes:

>I brewed an ale this weekend and I used 6lbs. of liquid malt extract 
>(Premier) and 1lb. of dry malt extract.  The problem I am having is
>when 
>I took a hydrometer reading on the wort before I pitched my Glenbrew 
>secret brewers yeast, btw, it showed 1.030.  This seems very low to
>me 
>considering the amount of fermentables +7lbs!  I was expecting
1.050+. 

Don't worry about it. Tomorrow, I will bottle a batch made from 7#
liquid extract that had a starting gravity of 1.052. Yours wasn't
mixed sufficiently. How did you aerate it? Hopefully, you shook the
carboy up after topping it off with water and adding the yeast.
Then, would have been the time to take the hydrometer reading
(after the froth settled).

It also sounds like you didn't cool the wort sufficiently before
pitching. It shouldn't have been any hotter than about 80deg
max before pitching the yeast, else you risk killing the yeast.


Eric

	"Beer improves with age. 
	     The older I get, the more I like it"

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Date: 13 Dec 96 11:51:17 EST
From: "David R. Burley" <103164.3202 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Re: Handling Specialty and Adjunct grains

Brewsters:

Dennis Barsolo asks:
 
> 	BTW, I've been told that some mashers actually don't mash their
> specialty malts (Crystal, Roasted, Chocolate, etc.). They just mash the
> 2-row, 6-row, Munich, etc. and then they either add the specialty malts at
> the end of the mash, or steep it in the kettle. What does everybody else
> do???
> 

Dennis, it is your choice.  Adding specialty grains ( e.g. Crystal Malt)  which
have dextrins as part of their character should be added after the beta amylase
is gone  from the mash tun to preserve these dextrins.  I add them during the
last half hour of a 90 minute saccharification step when presumably only alpha
amylase is active for the most part. Adding them at the beginning will produce a
less dextrinous beer.
- ---------------------------------------
Paul  Ferrara is venturing into adjunts for his wife and asks:

My first question:  What do I do with the rice?

My Second Question: Is Uncle Ben's Converted an
	appropriate rice to use? I
My last question: Any comments on this recipe
	which might improve it would be greatly
	appreciated.

A single infusion mash as you propse will not work as you intend, if the rice is
not properly prepared.  I always use a multi-step infusion mash with a goods
mash for the adjuncts.

Here's how I do it:

Prepare a "goods" mash as follows:

Gelatinize the starch in the rice by cooking it. Cool it.   Add 2# of crushed
malt and water to your rice and put it through a quick mash.  I use a protein
rest (perhaps not so necessary in the case of rice as in other adjuncts) and a
saccharification step to reduce the mash viscosity. This is then added to the
mash and I carry it through the various temperature stages.  Uncle Ben's should
be OK and gelatinize faster than regular rice.  I have recently started
"flaking" ( i.e. crushing it to about 1/3 size of the original grain) the dry
grain with my mill and then making a goods mash to get a squidge more extraction
in high adjunct cases.

For my Classsic American Lager styles, I use 30% rice or corn in the grist.
- ---------------------------------------------------------

Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Voice e-mail OK

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Date: Fri, 13 Dec 96 10:49:22 CST
From: Paul Sovcik <U18183 at UICVM.UIC.EDU>
Subject: Shepherd Neame Bishops Finger Kentish Ale

  I just picked up a bottle of this beer last night and was struck by the
similarity of this beer to the Ales I remember drinking in England ten
years ago.

   I recall that the characteristics of this beer were discussed in the
'old' HBD not too long ago, but no one was able to accurately state what
contributed the unique taste.  IMO, it is a taste that typifies the best of
the bitters, and it is a taste that I would kill (well, maybe maim) to
emulate in my brewing.  I just wish I knew what I could do.

  The elusive taste is not diacetyl as far as I can tell.  It seems to be
contributed by the malt, and reminds me of a toasty flavor.

  Anyone have any ideas?  Any beer judges out there who have evaluated this?

- -paul
- ------------------------------------------------
Paul Sovcik, Western Springs, IL           "Better brewing thru Chemistry"
PJS at uic.edu   OR  U18183 at uicvm.uic.edu

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Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 11:06:34 -0600 (CST)
From: Jeff Smith <snsi at win.bright.net>
Subject: In defense of partial mash (at least mine)

Howdy All,

Partial mash brewing has been a godsend for me.  It has let me get as close
to all grain brewing as I can with the equipment I have (now that I have
access to propane cooker I'll start the new year by going all grain).  I
started with the colander method (which sucks) and now use a Phil's mini
masher.  Partial mashing has allowed me to first wort hop, control the color
of my beer, increase malty flavors, experiment with rice, wild rice, flaked
corn, roasted pearled barley and (hint hint) popcorn.  I know that if I had
to go though the last  2-1/2 years and 60+ batches as an extract brewer I
might not be brewing now.

I do think that George De Piro is right in that if you have no limits "go
all the way!" but if limited by cooking power or space to store the larger
equipment, partial mash may be a good step for you.  But don't use a colander.

AlK wrote:

>Karen says I get to turn the old 1.5-car garage into a
>brewery when the new 3-car garage is done.  I can see it now... 2 walk-in
>coolers, one for lager fermentations, one for ales, plus a lagering fridge...
>there's a restaurant supply place near here that has a dozen 6-door
>commercial fridges for $1000 to $1500 each...

Al, I was looking at making vacation plans for the summer.  Can I book the
garage in July? ;)

Jeff Smith | '71 HD Sprint 350SX, Temp '77 GS 400 X
snsi at win.bright.net | Barnes, WI
I am so pleased that the mead is brewed!-Jane Austen

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Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 12:10:37 +0500 (EST)
From: macher at telerama.lm.com
Subject: Wort Aeration question...

The following just rang a bell about a question I keep asking myself as a 
newbie, and then forgetting...

On Fri, 13 Dec 1996, Eric Palmer wrote:

> How did you aerate it? Hopefully, you shook the
> carboy up after topping it off with water and adding the yeast.
> Then, would have been the time to take the hydrometer reading
> (after the froth settled).

I have been syphoning the cooled wort from my brewing pot(extract) and 
letting it drop into the 5 gal carboy from the top of the opening, 
clipping the syphoning hose there. Makes a lot of bubbles, etc,

Question:

If I syphoned more quietly and then topped off the carboy, how would 
shaking the carboy aerate the wort? Where would the O2 come from?

For this reason, after shaking the first carboy, I stopped. I have only 
brewed 5 batches so far, and have only used dry yeast. In all cases the 
yeast started in about 6 hours, and the mix churned impressively for two 
days, blowing off a lot of stuff. Then all got quiet, and remained quiet 
in the seconday for a week, until kegged.

I wonder:

1) should I do more to aerate the wort before dropping it into 
the carboy? Currently I am doing little or nothing.

2) Does shaking a full carboy really have any effect in aeration?

My final gravities have been somewhere between 1.016 and 1.020.  OG has 
been uncertain, since all but one batch was not a full boil, and I 
question my ability to mix wort/water well enough to trust the reading.

Appreciate any/all answers....

Bill

OH, by the way, the beer tastes good! I have been kegging and force 
carbonating, but this last batch I am trying natural carbonation.

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #2286