(formerly Volume 02 : Number 042)



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Contents:
  Beerstone
  AFCHBC Competition notict
  RE: freshman digest
  Boston Globe Article/CO2 in Rootbeer(Phil Wilcox)
  Apple Wheat
  List
  Software for Competitions
  IoDIDE, Secondary yeast, Plastic fermenter lifetime, oxygenation
  Spore-formers, kraeusen starters, HSA,Yeast
  Carbonation in mini-kegs
  pronunciation
  Priming with Liqueur
  re:reverse step infusion mash
  Belgian brewing
  Air Filter
  re:Yeast & Aeration
  re: Big bubbles or Small
  kegging questions
  hop utilisation/bad flavours/force-carbonation/White Label? (korz)
  Belgian Pale Ale, Heading Compound
  Overpitching, Welcome New Brewer, Decoction Hell
  Percent Rye in Grain Bill
  Improving my brewing
  Sparging question
  Drilling Stainless Steel


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 13:15:49 -0600 (CST)
From: korz at xnet.com
Subject: Beerstone

Hello everybody...

I've looked through all my brewing texts (especially the pro texts) and
cannot find a recommended procedure for removing beerstone.  Beerstone
is primarily calcium oxalate, so I was hoping that the chemists on HBD
could offer a procedure.  How do I do it?  Acid?  Alkali?  Solvent?

Thanks.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com

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Date: 22 Jan 1997 10:33:57 -0800
From: Dion Hollenbeck <hollen at axel.vigra.com>
Subject: AFCHBC Competition notict

The following message is a courtesy copy of an article
that has been posted as well.


			 1997     4th Annual
	      America's Finest City Homebrew Competition

			Saturday March 8, 1997
			 Alesmith Brewing Co.
			    San Diego, CA

			 AHA/BJCP  Sanctioned

			     Sponsored by
				QUAFF
	       Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity


This is the SECOND call for judges and entries.  For more information:

Email:		hollen at vigra.com
Web page:	http://www.vigra.com/~hollen/AFCHBC.html
USMail:		QUAFF AFCHBC
		c/o Dion Hollenbeck
		516 Forward Street
		La Jolla,  CA  92037


Dion Hollenbeck
Organizer (619)597-7080*164 wk, 459-8724 hm  Email: hollen at vigra.com

Skip Virgilio
Judge Coordinator (619)549-9888 wk, 566-7061 hm

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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 13:53:09 -0500
From: Darrin Pertschi <darrinp at cowles.com>
Subject: RE: freshman digest

A "Freshman" brew digest...Hmmmmm,  Don't do it, you'll be disappointed.
Trust me.
I was also overwhelmed with some of the advanced discussions when I
started reading over a year ago; I still am: "We also know that we need
11.77 points to add to the finished beer.  Dividing 11.77 by 30 gives
0.39 gallons of krausen (see, about a third of a gallon) beer needed. 
0.39 times 128 ounces is 49.92, so you should add 50 fluid ounces of the
kraeusen beer to the finished beer and bottle immediately." 

But with the page down key I've been able to filter the stuff that's
relevant to my brewing, and listen in on more advanced stuff as needed.
Now I'm into all grain, making chillers, kegging and understanding more
and more. The best way to improve your game is to play with those that
are better than yourself, really. I would be ready to wager a dime that
the subscribers would leave after a few months and the discussions would
get stale.
That's just my opinion though....

Question: now I have a copper chiller and I'm going to make a copper
scrubber- filtering racking racking cane. I got the suggestions to treat
the copper with vinegar before first use, but then what? What is the
long term maintenance for copper in the brewery? Should I do a vinegar
dip frequently or leave it alone?

Darrin in South Central PA
Proprietor--Simpleton's Cosmic Brewery
- ---------------------------------------------
You never know just how you look through other peoples eyes. <B.H.S.>

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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 14:47:23 -0500 (EST)
From: TheTHP at aol.com
Subject: Boston Globe Article/CO2 in Rootbeer(Phil Wilcox)

Hi all, 

The AP must have picked up this article. I read it in Mondays Grand Rapids
Press, (Mi). Titled " The Herstory of Beer"  Nice article on Gwen Lloyd the
first female head brewer in Massachusetts! (John Harvard's Brew
House-Cambridge) I found it noteworthy not only for the photo but also for
the GLARING misquote. Gwen if your out there, we know youd never say this!
;<) ' "After the beer is fermented, we run it off into this kettle, where
it's boiled, and hops are added. Then it's moved to a third tank, where yeast
is added to begin fermentation."' Cheers to all the Lady Brewers in our
midst! 

A real question so not to completely waste the bandwidth.  I recently made a
rootbeer with my "Little" brother (5 gal. in a Corny keg -no yeast) and
experienced problems carbonating it. I had it chilled for a while on the back
porch ~34 some ice was floating in it, it seemed to take on CO2 forever. I'd
shake for 2-3 min, walk away, shake again, I put on its side on the angled
floor and (yes I have check valves on my regulator) and rolled it back and
forth with my foot so i could hear the CO2 bubbling in. this i did off and on
for 2 hrs. I finally gave up, sat it upright, left the gas on and went to
bed. Why does it take longer to carbonate rootbeer than beer beer? My Pilsner
took less than 5 min at similar temps and it looked and beaded fine. Is it
the abundance of sugar or absence of Alcohol? I dont understand? The long and
short of it is, It got REALLY cold (-6F) and froze the stuff solid. So we
disassembled, and thawed and are ready to start over...any suggestions? How
many vol's of CO2 "should" we be aiming for? Im still just pot shotting
here...Thanks for any help. 

Phil Wilcox
Poison Frog Home Brewery
Now serving: Frog! (Not Bass) Pale Ale, BillyFrog Bock, and "Your Fathers"
Poison Frog SuperBowl Pilsner "Mustache"

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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 97 15:17:09 EST
From: Alex Banta <abanta at sctcorp.com>
Subject: Apple Wheat

Fellow Brewers and Brewsters,

I would like to know if anyone has a receipe for an Apple Wheat?    
Has anyone heard of an Apple Wheat or any variations?  We
brew with extract or can do a partial.  Please email me directly at 
abanta at sctcorp.com.  Thanks in advance.  Prost!!

Alex R. Banta
Lexington, KY
B.O.C.K.
Brewer's of Central Kentucky

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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 12:37:39 -0800
From: bmurrey at BellInd.com
Subject: List

Hey...how do I subscribe to the homebrew digest???

Thanks

Brian Murrey
IS Coordinator
Computer Division - Bell Industries
(317)634-8202 X3150
bmurrey at bellind.com

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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:58:51 +0000
From: Barry DeLapp <mss at pictorl.com>
Subject: Software for Competitions

Just a reminder that shareware software is available for running a
homebrew competition for a service fee of just $25 including materials
and shipping.  While not perfect, this is a major development which I am
pleased to be able to share with fellow homebrewers.  Here are some
requirements:

HP LaserJet or compatible printer (no substitutes!)
A PC with Windows or Windows 95 and 4 MB RAM, 5MB Disk.

I accept checks, Visa, MasterCard and American Express (since I own a
real software business which actually makes money).

Barry DeLapp
9 Airdrie Ct.
Paoli, PA  19301

Barry at pictorl.com
 
(610) 644-0224 h
(610) 648-3980 w
(610) 648-3983 f

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Date: 22 Jan 97 16:09:56 EST
From: "David R. Burley" <103164.3202 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: IoDIDE, Secondary yeast, Plastic fermenter lifetime, oxygenation

Brewsters:

Part 1

Sorry for this long post, but many of the items I've been discussing were
included in the last HBD.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
: "Nathan L. Kanous II" says:

> With regards to sea salt and iodine, iodine is added to 
> Morton's iodized salt

Nathan,

IodIDE ( the anion) is added to sea salt, NOT iodINE ( the very reactive
element). Being a halogen, like chlorine, Iodine is poisonous to micro-organisms
and animals.  Iodide, like chloride,  is not poisonous to animals in reasonable
quantities, as witnessed by its inclusion in our food as a valuable nutrient.
Although I have read many times that iodide is harmful to yeast, I cannot
understand why nor find a professional reference which supports this contention.
Do you have one? 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Braam Greyling says:

 I dont 
> think it is inferior yeast on the bottom, it is just yeast without 
> food.
> 
> Am I understanding things wrong here ?

Nope, that's what I said. Fresh secondary yeast is viable, and can be a good
clean source for your next brew.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
Eugene Sonn asks:
 
Anyone out there know how long we can trust plastic fermenters?

Well, I have been using the same plastic fermenters for a decade or longer
because I like their compact shape and 6+ gallon volume no longer readily
available. Does this make me  P/R, plastic retentive?

 I clean then with a small amount of pure bleach, The bleach being a strong
oxidizer AND caustic easily removes most organic deposits. I then add hot water
and remove any remaining material with a soft brush. If need be, I add some more
concentrated bleach and rinse several times with hot water.  I then hit them
with bleach and boiled hot water rinses before I use them again. Even though
there appears to be minor brownish stains, perhaps due to surface abrasion,  I
have never had an infection problem. YMMV

Be sure to wear safety glasses, long sleeves and rubber gloves. Alkaline
substances are FAR worse for your eyes and skin than acid ones.

- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Hitchcock says:

> By increasing the
> availability of oxygen to the yeast the cells can better build up their
> defences, reproducing more effectively, and passing on more of those
> defenses to daughter cells.  In this way the yeast can go though more
> reproductive phases before succuming to the nasty effects of the
> environment. 

Ed, 

Here's where I succumb to cognitative dissonance.  Regardless of how long you
oxygenate, saturation is saturation.  Based on my reading in M&BS I understand
that the yeast consume the oxygen in a few minutes.  How many daughter cells
(budded in say 2-24 hours) can take advantage of this supposed effect of
oxygenation?  I suggest not many to none.  My basic problem with all this is
that the amount of oxygen (low solubility) and the time of exposure ( a few
minutes)are insufficient to have any REACTANT effect (say such as becoming part
of the cell wall) over the several days of fermentation.

However, I do not deny all the observations made by Kirin  (as Maribeth
commented) and M&BS which indicate that lack of oxygenation results in a
deteriorating peformance of yeast over several batches.  Likewise I am aware of
all the experience with the highly flocculant ale yeasts needing rousing and
occasionally oxygenation during fermentation.  How can we explain this?

 Well, Maribeth Raines sent me this note:

>"I read somewhere (don't remember where) that O2 also induces the maltose
>transporter system.  This may in fact explain how a small amount of O2 may
>have such a large outcome on fermentation.

>Just a thought!"

Maribeth,

Thanks for your thought.  It triggered some of my own.  My speculation follows.
Comments?

Oxygen has to be in some kind of catalyst role or be affecting or forming
enzymes and not the oft repeated (even by me) role of building cell walls*.  It
just doesn't make sense from either a material consumption (stoichiometry) nor a
time presence, since all the oxygen disappears in a few minutes in the presence
of active yeast and therefore can have no effect in a reactant role during the
actual fermentation or yeast growth.

This role of oxygen being involved in formation or disappearance of an enzyme
also seems to make some sense in the case of the oxygen affecting the esters
formed and the batch to batch drop in attenuation in the absence of oxygen.  New
cells not exposed to oxygen would not have the same enzyme makeup ( at least
percentage- wise) perhaps and  the yeast population would ultimately
deterioriate as the percentage of new  (unoxygenated) cells overtook the older
ones from batch to batch.

Presumably the oxygen introduction will have a larger effect on the enzyme
systems of the younger yeast formed during the time after the last introduction
of oxygen, since if it were on the older ones the system would eventually
degrade.  This explains, perhaps, why  in some of the more flocculant ale yeast,
rousing and oxidation are sometimes necessary to get a change in the level of
ester formation. I presume the older yeast are flocculating first. leaving the
younger, un-oxygenated yeast to carry out the fermentation.  Rousing breaks the
flocs and brings the older oxygenated yeast into play and oxygenating brings the
younger ones into line enzyme-wise.  Thus, this explains why rousing and
oxygenation will have the same basic effect in terms of direction of change (
not necesarily the same overall quantitative effect).

Enough of my speculation. Is this something that has been advanced here before
and I didn't catch on?  Where is Tracy Aquilla?  What do you think? Anyone else
have any comments or suggestions as to the specific enzyme system(s)  that could
respond this way?  I guess it would have to be a fairly simple enzyme
modification reaction, either oxidation or isomerization. 

I'm looking for some discussion.  Any thoughts?

* It may be that oxygen helps form an enzyme which builds cell walls.
- -------------------------------------------------------

Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Voice e-mail OK

- -

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Date: 22 Jan 97 16:10:13 EST
From: "David R. Burley" <103164.3202 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Spore-formers, kraeusen starters, HSA,Yeast

Brewsters:

Part II

- ------------------------------------------------------------  
AlK says:

, but I believe that spores can actually survive and there are
> a number of beer-spoiling yeasts that do form spores.

I've never come across this in my reading.  Which ones are the spore-forming
yeasts?

- -------------------------------------------------------------
AlK also says:

> Regardless of whether it is DME or liquid, I fail to see the use of adding
> extract if you are priming with corn sugar.  If you're going to say "to
> absorb the oxygen added during bottling" forget it.

.. the yeast will absorb
> the oxygen because they like oxygen, not because there's some maltose in
> the primings (there will be no difference in oxygen use between all-malt and
> all-dextrose priming).  If you're going to say "because it gives better
> head retention" or "for the nutrients" forget those too... there just isn't
> enough of anything in two tablespoons of syrup to make a difference.


Al,

It never ceases to amaze me how your imagination about what I think gets into
your presentation of some kind of argument about my comments.  Please stop this
"straw man" approach of setting up a false assumption and then tearing it down.
It is pretty transparent to most of us.

If you want to know my reason for doing something, ask me.  We don't need your
misconceptions clouding the issue.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AlK,

Your explanation of how to Krausen with my krausen starter approach (rather than
young beer) was excellent.  Although you are exactly correct in your measurement
methods ( assuming you can accurately measure the SG of a  fermenting beer at
high kraeusen), in my experience if you use the krausen starter as soon as you
see the foam begin to form (usually about 12 hours)  it provides satisfactory
control over the carbonation level.  No denying if you let the starter ferment
for a day or so before use you will have inconsistent results.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Bruce Baker says:
> 
> G'day from New Zealand,

Funny, I might have guessd Oz, Bruce.  Just kidding.  Welcome to the HBD.

> 1.  Isn't the process by which yeast converts sugar to yeast an anaerobic 
> process, ie doesn't require oxygen?

I assume you mean "yeast converts sugar to *alcohol* " is anaerobic - Yes
> 
> 2.  Doesn't aeration lead to oxidation, a bad outcome?

Above about 80F( some say 70F as a guideline, take your choice since the higher
the T the  worse it is) oxidation of the wort produces Hot Side Aeration (HSA)
which is a bad thing.  Cool your wort before aeration to aid in good yeast
growth and consistent properties from batch to batch if you recycle your yeast.

Starter bottles to increase the amount of yeast pitched does all those things
you sugggest.  Help assure a pure strain, reduce the likelihood of infection,
reduce the fermentation time, provide a consistent ester formation regime.
Reusing clean yeast is cheaper and does all of the above even better than a
starter, because the amount of yeast recovered is generally larger. Some people
recommend as much as a gallon (4 liters) of wort needs to be fermented (either
all at once or serially) to get sufficient yeast crop for pitching. My
experience is a quart (liter) is just sufficient in most cases and other authors
suggest one half gallon.  The more the better in most situations.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Voice e-mail OK

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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:23:41 -0500
From: "Kevin R. Sinn" <skinner at MNSi.Net>
Subject: Carbonation in mini-kegs

Hello Brewers!

I've got a typical mini-keg setup (with the CO2 tap) and I was wondering
if there is any way to force-carbonate the beer.  I've read about
carbonating corny kegs by turning on the gas and shaking the heck out of it.
Would this work with a mini keg?  If I tap the keg, turn on the gas and
shake it will it carbonate?  I realize that the CO2 cartridge won't provide
the same amount of pressure that a CO2 tank would. Has anyone tried this
with success?  Please advise.

Thanks!

- -KRS

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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 14:32:05 -0700
From: Jeff Sturman <brewshop at coffey.com>
Subject: pronunciation

We have some home brew riding on this one:  How do you pronounce Gueuze?
(blended lambic beer)

jeff
casper, wy

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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 97 14:25:02 -0800
From: Matthew Taylor <mtaylor at mail.valverde.edu>
Subject: Priming with Liqueur

Oh Great Brewers of Much Knowledge

I've  read recently that you can use Liqueurs or Schnapps as a way to prime a fruit beer, or any other flavor for  
that matter.  Both books said a 750ml bottle is enough to prime a 5 gallon batch, and only increase the alcohol  
by 1%.  Has anybody out there tried this before?  How did it work out?  I got this crazy idea to do a chocolate  
porter primed with Creme 'de Menth.  


Thanks  for the input

Matt Taylor
mtaylor at valverde.edu

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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 97 15:34 PST
From: Charles Burns <cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us>
Subject: re:reverse step infusion mash

George writes in HBD 40:

     Eric asks for comments about his technique of starting 
     saccharification at 158F and letting the temp drop to 140F.
     
     Well, in short, you can't work backwards with mash enzymes.
     
     The high initial heat will denature the beta amylase.  As the 
     temperature drops all that you will achieve is slowing down the 
     surviving alpha amylase.  You'll get conversion, but a highly 
     dextrinous wort.

And he's right, technically. However, I've got a recipe that does exactly 
this and won a 2nd Place in California State Fair last summer. Go for it Eric!

Charley

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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 17:59:14 -0600 (CST)
From: korz at xnet.com
Subject: Belgian brewing

Regarding Scott and Jeremy's, er... discussion of Belgian brewing,
yes, perhaps Jeremy could have been a bit more diplomatic, but also
Scott's post did contain quite a bit of incorrect information.  Many
people believe that all Belgian ales are infected thanks to posts
like that.  The fact is that only the Lambic brewers still use
spontaneous fermentation (i.e. they don't pitch yeast and rely on
the air to bring it in) and Jeremy is right that the coolships are
in the attic not the cellar.  Also, although many Belgian brewers (as
well as British and American brewers) use open fermenters, *most*
do it WITHOUT relying on spontaneous fermentation and actually pitch
cultured yeast.  Scott's followup post could be misinterpreted by
some to mean that open fermentation equals spontaneous fermentation.
I'm afraid that Jeremy was also right in saying that Abbey Ales
are beers similar to those brewed by the Trappist brewers, but that
only the six Trappist breweries have the right to use the term
"Trappist Ale" and that Duvel is a pale Belgian Strong Ale and neither
Trappist nor Lambic nor spontaneously fermented.  As for "infected"
beers, not only the Lambics have lactic fermentations: there's also
the Witbiers and the Flemish Brown Ales like Liefman's and Rodenbach,
although these have the bacteria pitched and are not spontaneously
fermented. 

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com

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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 18:58:49 EST
From: John C Peterson <petersonj1 at juno.com>
Subject: Air Filter

In the lively and heated discussion, I'm giving my 2 pints worth.  Mark
turned a light on upstairs saying that w/o a filter, your work will
filter the air.  It would seem using cotton balls as a filter, being an
organic product, would be a great environment for yeasts and bacteria to
quickly grow and go on down the line to your wort.

What if you were to aerate into a 1/2 filled sealed bottle of "clean"
water and then aerate that air to your wort?  It seems the water would
filter your air a lot better than cotton.  One drawback, you need two
pumps.

BTW, if a homebrewer isn't anal retentive, how come he's bothering to
brew his own beer?

John C. Peterson
Aurora, Colorado
petersonj1 at juno.com
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/6841

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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 97 16:10 PST
From: Charles Burns <cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us>
Subject: re:Yeast & Aeration

Bruce Baker in HBD 40 writes:

I've been reading the HBD for only the last week or so, so I'm a bit puzzled 
by the discussion of aeration:

1.  Isn't the process by which yeast converts sugar to yeast an anaerobic 
process, ie doesn't require oxygen?

Yes, but before the conversion starts the yeast need to multiply to a volume 
large enough to do the job. This is what happens during the "lag time" and 
this is also the activity (aerobic) which does use oxygen.

2.  Doesn't aeration lead to oxidation, a bad outcome?

The oxygen is consumed during the lag period. And from everything I've ever 
read, oxygenation is only bad when the wort is hot. The wort should be 
cooled before aerating.

3.  What constitutes an adequate supply of yeast?  Doesn't yeast multiply?  
Doesn't the difference between a million yeast cells and a billion come down to 
time and sugar?

Good question. I guess you have enough when the beer ferments without being 
overcome by wild yeast or bacterial infections. The more yeast you have, the 
less the opportunity for being overcome. Yes yeast multiplies (see #1,2 
above). I wonder if there is such a thing as OVER pitching (comments anyone?)?

4.  What's the point of a starter bottle? Is it to shorten fermentation time 
overall, or is it to give the "good yeast" a head start in the life and death 
battle against "bad yeast"?  The starter bottle looks to me like another source 
of contamination, so I've just pitched the yeast into the wort straight out of 
the package.  Is this heresy?

Its not heresy and I used to do it until I decided to try a starter one 
time. I used to wait up to 2-3 days for the yeast to produce "fireworks". 
Now I get activity within 2-3 hours (ales). And the fermentations are 
completed much earlier (2-3 days lag time is gone). Yes the starter can get 
infected, you must use very sanitary procedures to get one going.

5.  Why do brewers reuse yeast?  Is it to save money, or is there another 
reason?  

Yes, yes. I save $4.00 every time (Wyeast cost) I reuse yeast. I normally 
get 2 additional uses, but the second time I split the results in half so I 
really get 4 shots per smack pack. Every time I've tried to get 4 
generations (5 shots) I get very fruity flavored beers. I suspect that my 
yeast washing procedures are not good OR I don't aerate well enough. I've 
been watching the "oxygen pumping" thread also and I think I may try it, see 
if I can get more extended use of the yeast. The two reasons are COST (big 
reason) and quicker fermentations with lower potential for infections 
(another really big reason). There is nothing sadder than a ruined batch of 
beer.

I hope to visit your country next year. We almost went last year but didn't 
have enough time to spare. Looks like we really need a good 2 weeks to see 
all of NZ. We're interested in coming down in June or July or August and do 
some snow skiing. What's the best time of year for that?

Charley

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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 97 16:13 PST
From: Charles Burns <cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us>
Subject: re: Big bubbles or Small

Joe Rolfe writes in HBD #40
>
>- -- [ From: Michael Gerholdt * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --
>

>>David, once CO2 is actually and fully suspended in the beer then, if
>>conditions are the same, there should be absolutely no difference in how the
>>CO2 comes out of suspension based on how it got in there.

>>> well from my and several other commercial brewers there IS a big difference.
forced/jacked up co2 take more time to mellow out, no i dont have technical
articles on this (does anyone?) but it is very apparent thru blind taste panels 
we have done (and others).  actually artifical co2 produces large bubbles for
a period of time, top yeast tended to produce smaller bubbles and bottom
yeast <seemed> to produce the finest bubbles of all.  the yeasted beers
were (of course) bottle conditioned, same beer, same primings(both were
fermented out).
<<<<

Sounds like a call for experimentors! Anybody game?

Charley
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
Charles Burns, Director, Information Systems
Elk Grove Unified School District
cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us, http://www.egusd.k12.ca.us
916-686-7710 (voice), 916-686-4451 (fax)
http://www.innercite.com/~cburns/

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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:17:30 -0800
From: "Brander Roullett (Volt Computer)" <a-branro at MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: kegging questions

Ok, I finally did it. i Kegged.  yeah!  now what do i do?

Seriously now...

I have a few questions for you Guru's to answer in hopes i can learn
something...

(i bought all of this stuff in a batch from a guy who was getting out of
it, so its all used equipment)

1)  I put hot bleach water in my keg, sloshed it around, sealed the keg
(after a few tries) and then under 5-7 psi pushed it out through the
tap.  Problem #1 is seemed to "sputter" alot, and spit.  i think i have
a air leack in hte tubing closest to the keg fitting.  the hose is a
larger diamer than the fitting is, and when sitting (no water flowing)
there are bubbles comeing up the tube.  how can i fix this, is this
normal, and i panicing?

2) if put it in my fridge, cool it down, and then force carbonate like
people have said here, will it have problems if i take it out of the
fridge after i am done carbonating it?  My wife and roomates won't let
me keep it there for more than a night.

thanks in advance...

Brander Roullett(a-branro) aka  Badger    
http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/

For a quart of ale is a dish for a king.  -William Shakespeare

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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 18:43:43 -0600 (CST)
From: korz at xnet.com
Subject: hop utilisation/bad flavours/force-carbonation/White Label? (korz)

Richard writes:
>I'm trying to calibrate my brewing software (HBRCP by J. Varady).
>I keep making ales that are on the very hoppy end of the scale but
>but continue to get comments about how they are not bitter enough.
>Does anyone have an idea about the correct percent usage for hops
>( a function or table of time/ % usage ) I'm using ~30% for 60 min
>down to 5% for 0 min additions. All help welcome.

It depends a lot on your system and methods (including fermentation),
but if you are getting less bitterness than expected from these numbers,
I think you know what to do: lower them.  Try 25% for 60 min, 12% for
30 min, 6% for 15 min and 0% for 0 min.  Note also that boil gravity
is one of the most important factors in utilisation.  You can get as
little as 20% for 60 minutes for a really thick wort.  This is also
very important to remember when brewing a full-boil batch from a
concentrated-boil (i.e. partial-boil) recipe!

***
Eckard writes:
>2. obergaerige yeast goes to the top of the liquid and is taken away from there
>(commercial breweries don't wait till it dies and sinks to the bottom, 'cause 
>that would give a bad taste), <snip>

This is not correct.  The yeast need not die to sink and all closed
fermentation systems (unless they use dropping) harvest yeast from the 
bottom of the fermenter.  Many a prize-winning ale was brewed in a
carboy by waiting till the yeast settled to the bottom and then racking
the beer off the yeast.  Wheeler says exactly what Eckard said in his
"Home Brewing - A CAMRA Guide" book, but then in a subsequent paragraph says
how many commercial brewers *do* indeed let the yeast settle and harvest
from the bottom of the unitank.

The fact is that there should be no fear of bad taste from letting the
ale yeast settle through the beer.

***
Jim writes:
>1.  If I want to force carbonate my beer at 30 PSI, how long would it take at 
>45 degrees F. ?  35 degrees?

I don't think you have it right... what you want is to force-carbonate
your beer to a particular number of volumes, not a particular pressure.
The pressure you need is dependent on the temperature.  While it's true
that 30 psi of CO2 will go into solution faster at 35F than at 45F, this
pressure at either of these temperatures will give you well over 5 volumes
and that's a propellant, not a beverage!

>2.  Once its carbonated, and I wanted to leave it hooked up for dispensing, I 
>assume the carbonation would slowly go down if my dispensing pressure was 4 - 
>6 psi (thats all I need).  Is there any solution other than relasing pressure 
>and then re-pressurizing every time I want a beer (say once every few days)?

Yes, if you have your hose lengths right and your pressure right for the
temperature, you can simply turn on the gas every few glasses and the
beer will stay perfectly carbonated.  You can leave the gas on all the
time, but you had better be very sure that your system has no leaks (mine
did ;^(  ) or you will get only 10 gallons from a 20# tank (sigh...).

I recommend that you get either the "Just Brew It!" Conference Transcripts
from the AHA or the Zymurgy article by Ed Westemeier on kegging (there's
a cartoon of a guy with a kegging system on the cover).  These will
teach you how to set up the lines so they are the right lengths and both
have the pressure/temperature tables in them.  I'm afraid that your
questions are good ones, but would take too much space to properly address
them here.

***
Dave writes:
>British Whitbread White Label ( a discontinued bottle conditioned British Ale)

I'm not familiar with this beer.  Are you sure you don't mean Worthington
White Shield, which was brewed/owned by Bass just before its demise?


Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com

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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 97 16:56 PST
From: Charles Burns <cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Belgian Pale Ale, Heading Compound

I went to order a 50lb bag of Munton & Fison the other day and the homebrew 
shop guy suggested I try the Belgian instead. Same price, so I bought 10 lbs 
to try on a future (next) brew. Does anyone have any special recommendations 
for this stuff? He says its "fully modified" and can be used with a single 
infusion, but recommends a protein rest (20 min  at  140F) to help produce 
clearer beer. Comments from the peanut gallery?

What is this thing called "Heading Compound"? HB store owner says it come 
from a papaya plant and helps make a head stay around. Won't make a head 
from nothing, but once you have a head, keeps it standing. Anyone use this 
stuff? How much do you use in a 5 gallon batch? When do you add it to the 
brew (mash, boil, secondary, kegging/bottling)?

Charley

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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 97 16:35 PST
From: Charles Burns <cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Overpitching, Welcome New Brewer, Decoction Hell

Is there any such thing as Overpitching? Can you put TOO MUCH yeast into a 5 
gallon batch? If so, what are the results? How can you tell if you did it?

Please welcome Christian Arthur Burns to the world of brewing. He arrived at 
3:27 am yesterday (1/21/97) with a full head of hair, 10 long fingers 
(guitar hero), my blue eyes. At 8lbs 2 ounces, very healthy little boy. 
It'll be a few years until he actually brews, yes this is off topic, but I 
gotta tell the whole world. He's grandson number 2.

SuperBowl party and brew session. Scheduled for my first real decoction 
attempt, I decided to make a trial run last Monday. I ran into all sorts of 
problems (mistakes and dumb brewer tricks all) but the one I need an answer 
for is "stirring" the decoction. I was paranoid about scorching the mash so 
I stirred the mash for a full 40 minutes (man was I tired after that). The 
first 20 minutes while bringing it slowly up from 140F to 158F and the last 
20 minutes while boiling it (plus another 5 while it came up to boiling). I 
ended up with a pretty mushy mash. It lautered ok but my question is did I 
stir it too much? Should i have let it cook for a few minutes and then 
stirred? I use one of those cajun cookers under an 8.25 gallon kettle. It 
can scorch the wort very easily.

Charley
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
Charles Burns, Director, Information Systems
Elk Grove Unified School District
cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us, http://www.egusd.k12.ca.us
916-686-7710 (voice), 916-686-4451 (fax)
http://www.innercite.com/~cburns/

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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 97 18:57:58 CDT
From: Montgomery_John <montgomery_john at CCMAIL.ncsc.navy.mil>
Subject: Percent Rye in Grain Bill

     
     I plan on making my first Rye Ale in the near future. For those of you 
     who have brewed a Rye, what percent of the grain bill would you 
     recommend to be Rye? I like the taste of Rye, so I would like the 
     flavor of the beer to suggest it, but not be overpowering. Thanks in 
     advance.
     
     John M. 

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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:33:04 -0500
From: David and Nancy Conger <dnconger at primenet.com>
Subject: Improving my brewing

Greetings Brewers,

Three question about techniques to improve my beer:

1.  If I put my hop pellets into a hop bag or bleached out nylons during
the boil will that significantly lower their utilization?  I brewed an
extract porter last weekend that took 45 minutes to push through a strainer
into the fermenter. I'd like to avoid that mess in the future, but whole
hops are not always available at my local shop.

2.  I've read about the technique of whirlpooling the wort in the brewpot,
then siphoning the wort into the fermenter from the outer edge of the pot.
This technique is usally done with a Choreboy or other copper scub pad
"tied over the end" of the siphon to keep it from clogging. How does one
"tie" a copper scub pad to a racking cane?

3.  I've read that the heat distribution from an electric stove can be
improved (less scorching) by elevating the brewpot slightly above the
burner with a wire trivet. Can anyone tell me more about this? I'm curious
as to where I could find a trivet or how to make one from a coat hanger.
How much separation should it put between the pot and burner?

Thanks in advance for any help any of you can give me.

David Conger

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Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 23:46:37 -0600
From: Harlan Bauer <blacksab at midwest.net>
Subject: Sparging question

I have a 3-tier system that uses an insulated stainless mash-tun with an
EasyMasher and a rotating sparge arm. Usually, I know exactly how much
sparge water I need to sparge until the grain-bed runs dry, have the proper
volume in the boiling kettle, and the gravity of the final runnings is
between 1005-1008. I acidify my sparge water and have had no problems with
astringency. 

My question is: Might I be better served to sparge until I have the proper
volume in the boiling kettle and to turn off the valve from the mash-tun
while it is still wet? 

One advantage to the way I've done it in the past is that it is very easy to
scoop the dry, spent grains from the mash-tun. Does anyone have an educated
opinion on this? Is one way better than the other, or does it even matter?

TIA,
 
Harlan

   *********************************************************************
   *                                                                   *
   *     Harlan Bauer              ...malt does more than Milton can   *
   *     Carbondale, IL            To justify God's ways to man.       *
   *  <blacksab at midwest.net>                         --A.E. Houseman   *
   *                                                                   *
   *********************************************************************

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Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 05:21:20 -0600
From: Mike Peschka <cpeschka at earthlink.net>
Subject: Drilling Stainless Steel

The advice offered by Mike Kidulich re drilling stainless steel is sound.
The only other key factor is drill speed: it needs to be quite a bit slower
than the 1800 rpm or so you get from a pistol drill. If using a variable
speed drill press, no problem; adjust it for 400 - 600 rpm. If the bit
speed is too high, this will also overheat and work-harden the SS.

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #2322