---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@ brew.oeonline.com
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  AlK responds fully ("David R. Burley")
  Re: Priming (Jeff Renner)
  Easymasher quirks solved (Todd Bruce)
  Enter the Seventh Annual March MashFest (Scott Mills)
  Recipe Request ("Clifford A. Hicks")
  Final gravityfor IPA? (Bruce Silver)
  Gambrinus Honey Malt                                              . ("Raymond Estrella")
  CO2-purged carboys (Harlan Bauer)
  Sanitary Yeast Harvesting (Heiner Lieth)
  RE: creating a better environment (Heiner Lieth)
  Some yeast question and answer (Jeremy Bergsman)
  Wort Chilling and Recirc (RUSt1d?)
  Re: unknown pleasures (Dckdog)
  NEED to judge (hollen)
  Lactating mothers and stout! (Tony Owens)
  Al K ("Raymond Estrella")
  Dyeing to know, Clinit*st ("David R. Burley")
  Re:  Allergies, beer (Steve Alexander)
  Clear Beer from Kegs, and Skunkiness (Peter M Garofalo)
  Paulener Wheat ("The Romano's")
  Re: Freshman Digest (Ron Karwoski)
  Re: Freshman Digest (Ron Karwoski)
  Be careful ("Braam Greyling")
  Nicely Hopped in Kenya (Russ Kruska)
  Paddles (Zurekbrau)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: 01 Feb 97 14:50:28 EST
From: "David R. Burley" <103164.3202 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: AlK responds fully

Brewsters:

AlK responded to several issues in a Looong post, so I will break them out into
topics so that you with PgDn keys can use them as desired.

- --------------------------------------------------
Magnesium Bitterness discussion:

AlK said:

> Dave writes:
> >>" Finally, let's do a reality check on our posts before we jump all over Al,

Actually, Al, you said this about yourself when you finished presenting your
Epsom Salts taste experiment on water - not beer..

I said:
> >I didn't see any jumping going on by anyone, just commenting. As I recall
> >though, you said that magnesium didn't contribute to the bitterness, just the
> >sulfate.

Al said:
> Any homebrewing book will tell
> you that it's the sulphate.
I say:

Apparently the sea salt industry disagrees with this as a recent HBDer commented
that the industry tries to remove the magnesium since it gives the table salt a
bitter taste.

It is interesting that most books I read are silent on the subject but the ones
who aren't say magnesium is bitter.

A very recent book (1996, Storey)  by Lee W. Janson called "Brew Chem 101" says
on page 15 the following:

"MAGNESIUM (Mg++)  Essential for yeast metabolism.  In small amounts increases
beer flavor.  In excess amounts, gives strong bitter flavor.

SULFATE (SO4 ^ -2) Gives very sharp dry full flavor to beer.  Coupled with
sodium , gives a noticeable harshness."

Dr. Janson holds a PhD in biological sciences and biochemistry, is a homebrewer
and a certified beer judge. 

- -----------------------------
Skunkiness of European beers sold in the US in green glass:
 
> Read the article in the second from last Zymurgy... the one with the
> *skunk* on the cover. 

I did and Peter Ensminger did a good job on what he was talking about -
Skunkiness ( or Cattiness in the UK) caused by light.  I have no disagreement
that beer can be skunked by light. That has been known for decades.

My point, as has been made by others here, is that the packaging is virtually
light-tight on some of these beers,  yet these beers are subject to what some
call skunkiness.  This is the puzzle.

Does anybody remember if Miller HIgh Life, when it was the "Champagne of Bottled
Beers" and came in clear glass bottles, was skunked?  I wasn't tuned into this
fault at this time , so can't comment, but don't remember it being that way. 

I wonder if there are several faults with bad taste, related to different
mercaptans and having different causes that people call skunky?
 
> Oh, and contrary to what Bud ads imply, skunkiness has nothing to do
> with age and Bud is no less susceptable to it than other brown-bottled
> beers sitting under fluorescent lights in the store.

Well, you may be right, but something is going on.  A Pilsner Urquell six-pack
that started out really good for the first few bottles, after sitting in the
fridge for a couple of months, developed a bad taste that some might call
skunky.

Maybe this answers that age old question. The light IS on when the door to the
fridge is closed!.......
- --------------------------------------------

Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Voice e-mail OK


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Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 15:35:21 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Priming

In Homebrew Digest #2331 Adam Rich <ar at crocus.medicine.rochester.edu> says:

>        Here is a simple question about priming that I have after reading
>David Draper's Preferred PRiming Procedure (at the Brewery).  Th etake-home
>message is that my ale has CO2 dissolved in it before I add the priming
>sugar, and this amount of CO2 will depend on the temperature.  Now, I need
>to subtract that amount from the amount of CO2 that I want in my finished
>ale, at SERVING TEMPERATURE.
>        So, from his chart I get 0.93 volumes of CO2 dissolved in my ale at
>20C.  I want 2 volumes in my British Style Ale.  BUT, do I want 2 volumes at
>20C, or do I want 2 volumes at 16 degrees C?
>        From the euqation Priming Rate = (V - Vo)/0.27027 I calculate that I
>will need to add 4.14 gm/l (or 78.35 grams./5 gallons or 2.764 ounces/5
>gallons).  This is all at room temperature.  Do I need to tak einto account
>that this ale will eb refridgerated?
>        The colder temperature will allow more CO2 to dissolve into the ale,
>and will it therefore make it less carbonated then I want?
>        I know, I have taken a very simple part of brewing and complicated
>it!  Sorry, I have a knack for this but it seems to be a reasonable question!
>thanks,

Sorry to have to repeat all of this, but I wanted to show how complicated
it is when we use this antiquated English method of volumes and STP, etc.
I repeat my suggestion that we just convert the whole matter to dissolved
CO2 by percent, or grams CO2/100 g beer.  It seems like prima facie
evidence when Rich with his PhD (presumably in a science) and Spencer with
his PhD in mathematics get confused.  We just need a pressureXtemperature
chart giving dissolved CO2, per cent CO2 for different styles, and remember
that 1 g sugar gives 0.46 g CO2.  Anybody want to make up these chart?

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu



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Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 12:32:06 -0800
From: Todd Bruce <tbruce at webbert.sdc.cio.eds.com>
Subject: Easymasher quirks solved

I've been using JM Easymasher(tm) in my mash tun for some time now and
I'm very happy with its performance.  I have experienced clear running
wort with only 8oz of recirculation and have never had a stuck sparge. 
But.. like many before me, I was frustrated with the air bubbles forming
in the hose because of the "ridge" on the tap.  Also, I had a hard time
adjusting the outflow especially when the tap was hot from heating. 
I've solved these quirks by replacing the tap with a 1/4" ball valve and
a hose barb for about $10.  Following is the materials list if your
interested:

1/4" threaded ball valve ($6)
1/4x1/4 hose barb ($1.50)
1/4x1/8 pipe reducing nipple ($1)
1 nylon or fiber washer (3/8 id)
plumbing tape or compound

Attach the nipple to the ball valve and insert the 1/8" nipple end into
the hole you drilled into your kettle.  Then attach the compression
fitting, washer and screen assembly from Easymasher(tm) to the 1/8"
nipple. On the other side of the ball valve attach the hose barb and
your vinyl tubing.  Voila!  You have excellent flow control and and the
hose barb provides a airtight fit.

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Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 12:56:10 -0700
From: Scott Mills <smills at boris.WEBACCESS.NET>
Subject: Enter the Seventh Annual March MashFest

                          Seventh Annual March MashFest
                                 March 22, 1997

The Mash Tongues of Fort Collins, Colorado invite you to enter our Seventh
Annual March Mashfest.  We will accept all homebrewed beer and mead.  This
competition is sanctioned by the AHA.  The number of Categories will be
determined after all of the entries are received.  Historically we have had
around a dozen Categories.  Medals will be awarded to 1st, 2nd, & 3rd place
entries in each Category, as well as for Best of Show in Beer and Mead.
Cool prizes will also be obtained from local microbreweries, brew stores,
and micro-oriented taverns to accompany the medals.  One first place winner
will be selected to work with the Brewers at Dimmer's Brewpub in Fort
Collins to scale up their recipe and brew it at Dimmers!

You can get complete information about the MashFest and download an entry
packet from the Mash Tongues club Web Page at;

   http://www.fortnet.org/~smills/masht.html

Or, if you prefer you can contact us via US Mail, E-Mail, or Phone and we
will mail you a packet.

Hurry!!  The deadline for entries is    March 8, 1997.

For more information check the Web Page or contact;


Scott Mills
7512 Leslie Drive
Loveland, CO 80537
970-669-6088
smills at fortnet.org


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Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 18:23:53 -0500
From: "Clifford A. Hicks" <74631.2471 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Recipe Request

Anyone got a good clone recipe for a Sam Adams Boston Lager?

 

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Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 19:17:42 -0600
From: Bruce Silver <preacher4031 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Final gravityfor IPA?

Hello fellow homebrewers. I've been "lurking" and have a question. Five
days ago I brewed an IPA (Yippee IPA from 'The Homebrewer's Recipe
Guide) Got it at a used book store for $4. My question has to do with
final gravity. This is my first IPA and I am a little confused. I racked
to seconday today and the SG was 1.005. It started at 1.069. It seems
that the attenuation is really high. Why? Was it the liquid yeast I used
for the first time (Wyeast 1056) or is my hydromiter messed up or am I
just having a bad flashback? I hadn't even begun the Golden rule yet so
that was not a factor. Thanks in advance for the advice. HBD is a great
gift and everyone adds a lot, I have learned very much in the last two
months.

Bruce Silver
"The homebrewin' beer drinkin' Presbyterian Minister"

Isaiah 40:31

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Date: Sun, 2 Feb 97 02:01:05 UT
From: "Raymond Estrella" <ray-estrella at msn.com>
Subject: Gambrinus Honey Malt                                              .

  Hello to all. I have been lurking, and reading the archives for over a 
year now, and have learned a lot from you guys. Thanks. But now a 
question. Looking at my comment sheets from contest entries, and 
observing fellow judges at competitions, a lot of emphasis is put on
bottle fill. Even though it is not supposed to effect scoring many judges 
start looking for problems in a bottle that is not a 1/2 inch from the top.
I keg 95% of my beer, and use a counter pressure filler for competition 
samples. I find it very difficult to fill the bottles up to that level. Does 
anyone have any suggestions.
 Also, Tom Galley asked about Gambrinus Honey malt. I bought 10 pounds 
of it this year and have used it in a couple of brews. It does give a 
lingering, very sweet taste to your beers. I got it from HopTech. 
(1-800-379-4677 )
 Thanks in advance,

Ray Estrella, Cottage Grove MN
ray-estrella at msn.com

  ******* Never relax, constantly worry, have a better homebrew.*******

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Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 23:32:14 -0600
From: blacksab at midwest.net (Harlan Bauer)
Subject: CO2-purged carboys

Val asks:

>For my question of the day-I always purge my 5 gallon carboy with CO2
>when I rack to secondary. I've always used 15 PSI for about a minute.
>Is that enough?? Am I wasting my time and CO2? All input will be taken
>with appreciation and maybe other "inquiring minds want to know"!!  

I think purging with CO2 is a good idea. Here's how I do it:

1. Fill carboy with Iodophor solution.

2. Attach a carboy cap (those two-holed orange thingys) with a racking cane
pushed thru the bigger hole and CO2 to the other.

3. Push Iodophor out the one carboy with CO2 into another clean one. Then
you end up with a CO2-filled carboy and an Iodophor-filled carboy. Sanitary
transfers and no air.

BTW, there was a good article on this method in BT some time last year.

And DON'T tape the carboy cap down--if it pops off, you're using too much
pressure. That's your safty release to keep the carboy from going kablooey!

ttyl,
Harlan

   *********************************************************************
   *                                                                   *
   *     Harlan Bauer              ...malt does more than Milton can   *
   *     Carbondale, IL            To justify God's ways to man.       *
   *  <blacksab at midwest.net>                         --A.E. Houseman   *
   *                                                                   *
   *********************************************************************


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Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 22:41:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Heiner Lieth <lieth at telis.org>
Subject: Sanitary Yeast Harvesting

Tom Williams <brewman at wwnet.com> wrote:
>Just a quick question ... is it necessary (or advised) to flame the mouth of
>the secondary prior to transferring yeast to storage?  I'm not sure if these
>carboys are up to the heat stress or not.  What do others do to cut down on
>possibilities of infection, and is there a risk?
>
I wouldn't count on the lip to the fermenter being anything other than a
bacteria culture (touched by sticky hands, drips of wort, etc).  So if
you're in glass and are going to pour (rather than siphon), then you should
wipe with a vodka-soaked tissue and then flame.  In my opinion (for what
it's worth), if you're in plastic, then you should siphon.

The way I get the yeast out is to have an empty sterilized champagne bottle
on hand. As I rack the fermenter I stop siphoning by sticking my bottling
wand on the end of the siphon tube (this is tricky, perhaps messy). Then I
swirl the fermenter.  Next, I tilt it and siphon as much of the slurry into
the champagne bottle as I can siphon or fit in the bottle.  Then I cap the
bottle (I use champagne/sparkling cider bottles that take crown caps).  If
you want to do more work (washing the yeast), then that's up to you. I
don't...but probably would if I was going to be holding the yeast for a long
time.

Heiner Lieth.


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Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 23:50:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Heiner Lieth <lieth at telis.org>
Subject: RE: creating a better environment

I have a suggestion which might solve the bit of non-hop-based bitterness
that seems to occasionally creep into this forum.

Whenever you finish a message that you are ready to post, let it sit for a
few minutes.  In that time ask yourself if the message you wrote would be
suitable for your mother, father, daughter, son, grandparent, grandchild,
friend, enemy,... to read (HBD subscribers are of all ages and in all walks
of life). Also ask yourself whether the message would be appropriate for
_you_ to read aloud in a room filled with over 1000 strangers (try not to
get stage-fright). If the answer is no, then don't send it until you've
fixed it so that you can say yes. 

While the HBD was at it's previous home I once asked the listserver to send
me the list of subscribers.  I seem to remember that the file was 50K in
size; if the average e-mail address were 25 characters long, then that would
translate to 2000 names. Most of these folks are sitting there silently
watching you make a fool of yourself, if you choose to do so.

Enough said. Pax.

Heiner Lieth.


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Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 00:37:44 -0800
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu>
Subject: Some yeast question and answer

00bkpickeril at bsuvc.bsu.edu (Brian Pickerill) asks:

> Does anyone know if a high temp starter ferment will cause any problems
> later, in the actual ferment?

I don't know, but I strongly suspect that it will.  There are a few things
that seem to have a multigenerational effect (but probably not a 
mutagenic one) on yeast: high temperatures, high gravities, and oxygen
conditions.  (The latter has been the subject of much recent discussion.)

100F is quite hot for yeast--I wouldn't use it myself.  YMMV.

> Also, I recently froze some wyeast 3068 Wheinstephen yeast from a starter
> with about 50% glycerine/glycerol. [snip]  The
> freezer is at about 20F the last time I checked, and the yeast sample never
> actually froze solid, which I suppose is the point of using the glycerine? 
There have been mixed reports, but I think most people find what I
have found--a normal freezer (either the temperature or the cycling
could be the problem) will not provide for long term yeast storage.
The laboratory technique is freezing in 15% glycerol and storage at
 -80C.  Check out the yeast FAQ and other stuff at The Brewery
(http://alpha.rollanet.org/InfoBaseCont.html) for info on other methods.
Slants will work for .5-1 year.  If you use much it less often than this,
maybe it is worth it just to buy it again?

> Finally, is it OK to wash yeast with lactic acid?  If so, what
> concentration should I use?  How much is that with 88% lactic acid in say a
> quart of H2O?

This should work as far as I can see.  I believe the protocol is to lower the
pH to 2.0-2.5 on ice, which should probably be done to the (sterile)
water before adding the yeast.  This is held for a couple of hours
and then added to wort.  Breweries will not use, or will blend, the first
batch made this way as the yeast will not have the right fermentation
characteristics (see my comment above about long term changes).  For them
it is worth it because in one batch they are back to pitching quantities
of yeast, which would otherwise be a lot of work to get by stepping
up, and they might not like the first batch of recultured yeast either.
For home brewers this doesn't make sense, IMHO.  I would suggest plating
and picking a single colony, or repurchasing the yeast.

By the way, I don't have the pKa of lactic acid handy, you should make
sure it will drop the pH low enough.  The standard protocol is to use
phosphoric.  It is impossible to say how much acid you will have to use since
it depends on the buffering capacity of your water.  You will have to
titrate down to that level, measuring as you go.  Tough to do in a
sterile manner.
- -- 
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu
http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~jeremybb

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Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 09:16:56 -0500 (EST)
From: RUSt1d? <rust1d at li.com>
Subject: Wort Chilling and Recirc

>Once the boil is over, the wort is pumped from the kettle, through a CF
>chiller, passed a "T" fitting, into a magnetic impeller pump (March, Little
>Giant, etc), and into waiting fermenting vessels.

I run my wort into a cf chiller and use a pump to recirculate it thru the
chiller and back to the kettle just at the surface. I run the water on
very low flow and the wort on high flow. I get one 6.5 gallon carboy full
of water at 140+F, one at 120+F and a third at 100+F (each carboy takes
about 10 mins to fill at the water flow rate). This water with bleach
sanitizes the carboys. By the time the second one is full, the first one
is emptied and rinsed. By now the wort in the kettle is about 100F so I
turn off the pump and put a small piece of ranking cane on the out hose.
This piece of cane has 4 pin holes drilled in the side and is sealed at
the bottom (by heating and squeezing). I stick the hose in a carboy and
turn the pump on high. The wort is aerated as it sprays agianst the sides
of the carboy chilled further to a cool 64F. This uses a total of 25
gallons of water to chill 12.5 gallons of wort in 30 mins.

I use a piece of brass screen cut in a circle that fits the bottom of the
kettle. This has a hole in the center and fits over a sloted copper pipe
drain. This is a four inch square of pipe connected together and slotted on
the bottom with the only exit in the middle of the square. With an 90 degree
elbow and a length of pipe, this connects to the out valve of the kettle.
With the drain in place and the screen placed over top the wort is sucked
from the center of the bottom. I always use some whole hops in each batch.
These cover the screen and make an even better filter then the screen itself.
The recirculation of the wort back to the kettle has the some of the same
benefits as mash recirc. The hops form a nice tight filter bed on top of the
screen. The wort returning to the kettle causes a natural whirlpool effect
without the need to stir.

I get very clear, particulate free wort. I don't know if the cold break is
formed in the kettle at 100F.

John
John Varady          http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady/index.html
Boneyard Brewing Co.          "The HomeBrew Recipe Calculating Program"
"Ale today, Gone tomorrow."


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Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 11:16:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Dckdog at aol.com
Subject: Re: unknown pleasures

Oh man, I swear my recent brewing efforts are cursed. I brewed a light
lager/steam beer using 3 lbs. of extra light DME and 13/4 lbs. of honey. The
first yeast I pitched didn't work ( I probably killed it) so I repitched with
two packets of Superior Aussie Lager yeast with good vigorous fermentation. I
racked to a secondary after 6 days and left it in a 40 degree closet for the
week. I took it out this morning into the house to bottle and now these weird
particulate things are ascending to the top of the brew and then descending,
perhaps brought on by the change in temperature. I will let it settle for a
few hours and hopefully bottle this afternoon. What the heck is that stuff?
Has my yeast reactivated? Should I call the exorcist?
Thanks,
Dean
"......you betcha there, yah...." Margie

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Date: Sun, 2 Feb 97 08:36:25 PST
From: hollen at vigra.com
Subject: NEED to judge


Having just passed my BJCP exam with a score high enough for
Certified, I need to get some points judging.  Could anyone planning a
competition in the next 6 months within four hours driving from San
Diego, CA please contact me with info.  I am already signed up for the
Greater Arizona Beer Festival, but cannot find any others listed in
Zymurgy before July.  Come on Southern, California, put on some
comps. 

thanks,
dion

QUAFF President

Organizer
America's Finest City Homebrew Competition
Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity, Sponsor
http://www.vigra.com/~hollen/AFCHBC.html

- ---
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x164                 Email: hollen at vigra.com
                                             http://www.vigra.com/~hollen
Sr. Software Engineer - Vigra Div. of Visicom Labs  San Diego, California

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Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 12:31:13 -0500
From: Tony Owens <ivy at fastlane.net>
Subject: Lactating mothers and stout!

Hello fellow brewers.  I recently was discussing with another brewer the
fact that doctors in the past would prescribe stout to lactating
mothers. He also went on to say that in England during WWII (I believe
is the war) all the stout in England was rationed for lactating mothers.

Is there any of you out there that can confirm this for me?  If it is
true, what exactly assists in milk production of a lactating mother? 
Dextrins? 

Thanks

Tony Owens

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Date: Sun, 2 Feb 97 18:45:38 UT
From: "Raymond Estrella" <ray-estrella at msn.com>
Subject: Al K

to the tune of "Dear God"
Dear Al, sorry to disturb you but,
you seem to have caused quite a ruckus down here.
Some think that your dissing the newbies beer.
And all the brewers that you made in your image, 
been flaming 'cross the web, 'cause they're not sure what was said,
by Al.......don't believe in you......

Dear Al, sorry to be buggin' you,
I will let you get your heavenly brews done.
But where can I find the right map for my tongue?
And since I slept through chemistry class, those posts just kick my ass,
from Al.......don't believe in you......

Did you make the malt, and the yeasties too?
Did you make beer geeks, or did we make you ?
And the Jim Koch too.........?

I don't believe in extract vs. grain,
when they ferment, they're all the same.
Open fermenters, better than closed,
drink from either one and you'll still get hosed.
Word comes down what we need to fear,
is that we'll get diarrhea from our beer.
All I know is when I need help, what to do,
I go online line and search for a post......
from you........dear Al.

Sorry, but this Al thing just lent itself so well. Honestly Al, I have been 
reading
your posts (and everybody else's) for over a year, and they have helped 
considerably. Keep up the good work, and I'll try to keep up.

Ray Estrella   Cottage Grove   MN
ray-estrella at msn.com

    *******Never relax, constantly worry, have a better homebrew.*******

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Date: 02 Feb 97 15:01:13 EST
From: "David R. Burley" <103164.3202 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Dyeing to know, Clinit*st

Brewsters,

 Cuchulain asks a 
> Bonus Trivia Question: 
> How do they get dye to adhere to cloth? Or to ask it another way; How is
> the color in ALL clothes applied?
> OK one hint: It makes a hypocrite out of animal rights' freaks.

There are lots of ways to get dye to adhere to cloth ( actually the fiber): 

 1) Direct  or Substantive dyes - self induced adherance, divided into acid and
basic dyes. These are used for dyeing animal fibers

2) Mordant or Adjective dyes need to have something like albumin ( an animal
product) or aluminum salts applied first.  Chrome dyes use chromium salts ( a
potential environmental threat).  

3) Azo dyes are chemically formed on the cloth by diazotization

4) Sulfur Dyes are applied in a chemically reduced state and oxidized to affix
them.

5) Vat Dyes  similar to sulfur dyes

6) Disperse Dyes applied as a colloidal suspension

Do I get a good grade?  What's the answer you wanted?  I'm dyeing to know.
- ---------------------------------------------
That Malty Dog Bill Coleman asks for more information on Clinitest and

AJ DeLange says:

> Dave Burley suggested the use of diabetic products to determine residual
> sugar content towards the end of the fermentation. This is workable but
> also quite approximate.

I obviously have done a lousy job of explaining what I mean.

I definitely did not recommend "diabetic products" as a class, to be used
indiscriminately.  I only ever recommended the Clinitest kit, never anything
else.  Maybe I haven't explained it thorougly here, even though I have discussed
this ad infinitum privately. Sorry for the long post, but I will be answering at
least two questions at the same time. Hopefully,  my recommendation will be
thoroughly understood when I finish.

Keep in mind throughout this discussion that the purpose of Clinitest here is to
indicate the end of the fermentation - nothing more.  No one would claim that a
hydrometer reading near the end of the fementation directly gives an accurate
reading of the sugar content or even the disssolved solids because of the
alcohol content, just that a constant reading indicates the end of the end of
the fermentation OR a stuck fermentation.

This potential for a false end-point reading is what makes the hydrometer method
so unreliable, in addition to the difficulty of getting any constant reading
over any length of time in still fermenting beer.

It just doesn't work, I don't care how many places you read it or how often it
gets said to use hydrometers to indicate the end of the fermentation.
Hydrometers are lousy, unreliable instruments for determining the end of a
fermentation. And no, spinning the hydrometer to release any bubbles does not
help get a better reading. In my experience by the time it stops spinning it has
bubbles again.   Clinitest will not give you a false reading in case of a stuck
fermentation, hydrometers will.  Clinitest doesn't care if you have a different
alcohol content or different unfermentable carbohydrate profile than expected.
If you are expecting a certain FG and don't get it what do you do?  The
hydrometer remains silent on the subject offering no potential solutions.  Not
so with Clinitest. If the reducible sugar is too high it needs to be fermented
more or the priming sugar needs to be reduced, no if, ands or buts.

 a) I recommend using Clinitest solution test kits ( not strips of any kind) at
the END of the fermentation. Clinitest is particularly useful when you don't
know the expected FG. The kit consists of a plastic box which doubles as a
testube holder during the test, a testube, an eyedropper , a bottle of reagent
pills and a standard sheet for color comparison.  They may need to be special
ordered by your local pharmacist, as I had to do this recently.  Don't let them
sell you any kinds of test strips as they will not do the job, at least to my
knowledge. 

 b) I only recommend the Clinitest KITS which are Fehling's/ Benedict's based
tests with a test tube and reagent pill. Ten drops of beer are added and ten
drops of water are placed in the test tube. An alkaseltzer like pill is added.
A fizzy  reaction ensues and the color of the solution compared to a standard
chart in the kit indicates the reducible sugar content of the beer.
Concentration of reducible sugars are easily read, since the color ranges from
orange through green to blue. The test takes about 1-2 minutes and no hydrometer
and jar to clean and it uses a tiny amount of beer, unlike repeated hydrometer
tests.

My experience is that < 1/4% reducible sugar is the correct indicator for the
end of the fermentation.  At this <1/4 % reading I get FG's which, depending on
the beer, typically range from 1.008 to 1.020, yet I know the fermentation is
through and I can safely bottle. I don't usually do this, but under time
pressure,  I have bottled before the end of the secondary fermentation,
correcting my priming sugar addition for the sugar content read by this test and
it worked perfectly.  I  have absolutely no idea where Noonan gets such a
ridiculous number as 2% to indicate the finish of the fermentation, unless he is
going to keg straight away. People following this advice and then adding
carbonation sugar will generate glass bombs when bottling. Probably another typo
or insufficiently explained comment from Noonan.  

AJ, in my post I specifically said that the enzyme strips were not acceptable
and they don't fall under the description of going after reducible sugars
anyway.  As far as which sugars are reducible and fermentable this includes all
sugars of interest to us including maltose but excepting sucrose.  This is,
however, unimportant, since at the end of the fermentation there is no sucrose
left anyway.  By the end of the fermentation, sucrose has been converted by
extracellular enzymes to fructose and glucose which the yeast can ferment
directly.  Your suggestion that some of the dextrins may have reducible ends and
give a test when there is no fermentable sugars is correct theoretically, but is
irrelevant practically as my experience over several decades shows. Any error
generated by this type of problem must be less than 1/4%.  If anything, it errs
on the conservative side and will delay bottling.  I have never had a broken
bottle or variable carbonation caused by bottling too soon since using
Clinitest, even when I made beers in which I had no prior knowledge of the FG.
All-grain brewers benefit from this greatly, since a missed hold temperature or
better or poorer extraction efficiency, can impact the FG substantially. Too low
or changing fermentation temperature or overly flocculant yeast can result in
stuck fermentations only to restart at some later time- hopefully not in the
bottle.

> The older guys will remember Fehling's solution and Benedict's reagent.

I'm one of the older guys and not only do I remember these tests, but Clinitest
Kits sold today are based on these reagents, so I still use them and suggest you
try it.
- ----------------------------------------------------------

Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Voice e-mail OK


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Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 15:10:00 -0300
From: Steve Alexander <stevea at clv.mcd.mot.com>
Subject: Re:  Allergies, beer

> A co-worker of mine said that he cannot enjoy a beer because of a
>allergic reaction (his lips swell then a tightness in the chest with
>trouble breathing). He also has this same reaction when eating wheat
>bread. However he can have bleached out white bread and the bleached out
>malted beverage, Zima (Zomething awful). My first guess would be the
>yeast but I'm not a doctor nor allergist, so does any one have any ideas
>how I could help out this troubled soul to enjoy a real brew?

Allergies apparantly aren't particularly well understood.  An allergy is
a hypersensitivity to an allergen, where the hypersensitivity may result
in an immunological response.  Allergens in food, pollen and insect
bites are typically proteins, but some allergies, for examples allergies
to many drugs, seem to be allergies to serum proteins modified by these
secondary allergens.

In the case above it seems probable that the person is allergic to some
protein in the wheat germ, that is the embryo.  From the comment above
I'm assuming that the allergy is to 'whole wheat' bread, as opposed to
white bread made primarily with flour from wheat endosperm. This is
probably not a gluten allergy, since gluten is present in substantial
quantities in wheat endosperm (white) flour.  This person may also have
an allergy to barley embryo protein, but this isn't clear - perhaps the
beers that this person reacts to also have a portion of wheat. It also
seems likely that some people react allergically to flavanoids and
possible to other phenolic compounds whick may react with proteins, tho
that doesn't appear to be the case here.

Other than finding some means of separating the malted barley endosperm
(which would probably remove a lot of alpha-amylase and FAN but might
make an acceptable beer with the addition of fungal AA and yeast
nutrients) or rectifying the beer to Zima-like insipidness, I can't
suggest a definite solution.  It might be useful to know if the person
is really allergic to whole malted barley and if so then to all the
various barley varieties.  Beers made soley from alternate malted grains
such as rye, corn, oats, quinoa or others might be a solution - tho'
obtaining malted versions may be very difficult - and it's not clear
that there would give the 'real beer' experience you seek.

Steve Alexander


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Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 15:16:39 EST
From: pgarofalo at juno.com (Peter M Garofalo)
Subject: Clear Beer from Kegs, and Skunkiness

I've noticed a couple of interesting threads lately, and thought I'd
chime in with my (hopefully pertinent) personal experiences.

First off, here's a suggestion that works well to improve the clarity of
beer from Corny kegs: Allow the beer to settle, preferably cold, for as
long as you can manage--a week, at least. Clean and sanitize a second keg
along with a transfer hose (a short piece of beer hose with compression
fittings on each end). Connect the hose to the LIQUID side of both kegs,
and pressurize the beer-filled keg just enough to push the beer forward.
Vent the receiver keg as nesessary. Be alert, and you can catch the end
of the keg-to-keg transfer and avoid the transfer of sediment.

I've used this method when I'm planning to transport beer, and in fact
just did two kegs today. One hint: make sure both kegs are well chilled,
and foaming will not be a problem.

As for "skunkiness" in beer that has not been exposed to light: yes, it
can happen. I've tasted skunked Pilsener Urquell on draft, and suspected
something in the handling is to blame.

I am not a chemist, but I have done more organic synthesis than most. My
understanding of the formation of prenyl mercaptan is that it's a free
radical reaction, with the absorption of the right amount of energy (from
light or _heat_) required to form the free radical, which then initiates
a chain reaction. Scott Bickham did some experiments along this line for
a presentation he did at last year's AHA convention. I don't know the
details, but he told me that he was able to "skunk" beer that had never
been exposed to light. I believe that temperature cycling was the key,
supporting the idea that poorly handled beer might become skunky, even in
kegs.

Any other ideas or experiences?

Cheers,

Peter Garofalo

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Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 15:52:25 -0800
From: "The Romano's" <PEDMJR at TTUHSC.EDU>
Subject: Paulener Wheat

I'm looking for a close approximation to Paulener weizen beer. 
Something light, crisp, well carbonated.  I've advanced(?) to partial
grain receipes.  Thanks in advance.  Great forum
- -- 
Mike Romano
PEDMJR at TTUHSC.EDU

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Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 22:30:51 -0900
From: Ron Karwoski <brewski at micronet.net>
Subject: Re: Freshman Digest

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 12:25:33 -0800

>From: The Holders <<zymie at sprynet.com>

>Subject: Freshman Digest

>

>In # 2325, Al K says:

>

>>I mean, as much as I like to help out and answer beginners' 

>questions, if not for the discussions of planispiral chillers,

>beerstone removal,and anthocyanogens, I don't know if it could

>keep my interest. 

>

>I think the whole point, Al, is that some people want to talk on their

>own level, and aren't concerned with your interest.

>

>Not everyone is a Ph.D., or Chemist, or Metallurgist. Some ordinary

>people

>want to have ordinary talk about ordinary things.

>

>I use the 'page down' extensively on many posts, and would probably

>subscribe to both digests. I'm no expert, hell, I don't even play one 

>on TV, but I do like to brew, but not in the ethereal plane.

>

>Wayne Holder

>Long Beach CA

>"Home of the Toob(tm)"

>- -- 

>"contrary to my own opinions, I'm NOT always correct....

>at least that's what I think..."



When I was lurking on the Fidonet conference on Aquariums I witnessed the
birth of a new conference dedicated to <italic>salt water
</italic>aquariums.  The idea was that the conference had grown too large
to accommodate both fresh water and salt water enthusiasts.  I think a
similar metamorphosis is in order for HBD.  Why not have an extract HBD
and an all grain HBD.

  Currently I have trouble keeping up with all the HBD's I've collected
in my mailbox.  If I could pick one of those categories I believe my
packets would be smaller.


Nothing important, Just my $.02 worth


Ron



E-mail to:

brewski at micronet.net



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Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 22:30:51 -0900
From: Ron Karwoski <brewski at micronet.net>
Subject: Re: Freshman Digest

Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 12:25:33 -0800

>From: The Holders <<zymie at sprynet.com>

>Subject: Freshman Digest

>

>In # 2325, Al K says:

>

>>I mean, as much as I like to help out and answer beginners' 

>questions, if not for the discussions of planispiral chillers,

>beerstone removal,and anthocyanogens, I don't know if it could

>keep my interest. 

>

>I think the whole point, Al, is that some people want to talk on their

>own level, and aren't concerned with your interest.

>

>Not everyone is a Ph.D., or Chemist, or Metallurgist. Some ordinary

>people

>want to have ordinary talk about ordinary things.

>

>I use the 'page down' extensively on many posts, and would probably

>subscribe to both digests. I'm no expert, hell, I don't even play one 

>on TV, but I do like to brew, but not in the ethereal plane.

>

>Wayne Holder

>Long Beach CA

>"Home of the Toob(tm)"

>- -- 

>"contrary to my own opinions, I'm NOT always correct....

>at least that's what I think..."



When I was lurking on the Fidonet conference on Aquariums I witnessed the
birth of a new conference dedicated to <italic>salt water
</italic>aquariums.  The idea was that the conference had grown too large
to accommodate both fresh water and salt water enthusiasts.  I think a
similar metamorphosis is in order for HBD.  Why not have an extract HBD
and an all grain HBD.

  Currently I have trouble keeping up with all the HBD's I've collected
in my mailbox.  If I could pick one of those categories I believe my
packets would be smaller.


Nothing important, Just my $.02 worth


Ron



E-mail to:

brewski at micronet.net



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Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 09:44:59 +200
From: "Braam Greyling" <acg at knersus.nanoteq.co.za>
Subject: Be careful

Hi brewers,

About a month ago I tried my hand at brewing an E.S.B. I knew this 
would be the last time I brew before my wedding(this coming Saturday)
It seems like I did not aerate my wort enough because I had a very 
high F.G. Anyway, I bottled it not thinking that it may ferment in 
the bottle. Two weeks later I had three or four exploded bottles in 
the study. (Nobody was happy about this). I realised what I have done 
so I took all the bottles and relieved some pressure with a bottle 
opener and sealed it again. I did not had any problems after that.
Saturday me and my wonderful wife-to-be, went to our house to fix 
the garden up a little(we are not living there yet). Since we would 
be working in the sun I packed a few beers as well. For one bottle I 
did not have enough room so I put it on the floor of my pick-up, just 
where my fiance`s feet are resting. We went to the house fixed 
everything up and a had a few beers. I forgot all about the one on 
the floor. We went back again as it was getting late. While we were 
driving back it happened. The bottle exploded. I never had such a big 
fright in my life. At first we thought everything was o.k. Then I 
looked at her leg just to see some blood streaming out. I stopped got 
out of the car and got her out of the car also. Luckily it was only a 
small cut,about 1cm. I gave her a paper towel to stop the blood and 
drove to the hospital. There they gave her one stitch and they 
cleaned all the scrapes on her leg. She doesnt feel good about this 
because it is a week before our wedding and now her leg will have a 
small mark. The doctor said the stitch will be out before the 
wedding. *relief*
I feel very bad about this and I just want to warn my fellow-brewers 
to be careful. This could have been a terrible accident. I was sure 
the bottle was not over carbonated anymore. Maybe it was a bad bottle 
and the shaking of the driving caused it to explode. I dont know. 
What I do know is that it wont happen again.
KEEP those bottles in a cooler or a box !!!

Luckily she is not mad at me. Like I said, we are getting married 
Saturday. If you remember ,on Saturday, lift your full beer 
glass in South Africa`s direction and wish us luck.

Cheers
Braam Greyling           I.C. Design Engineer 
Azona (Pty) Ltd        
tel. +27 (12) 665-1338  fax +27 (12) 665-1343
- ---- 24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a case ---- 
- ----     coincidence ?????                 ----

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Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 10:41:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Russ Kruska <R.KRUSKA at CGNET.COM>
Subject: Nicely Hopped in Kenya


Thanks to all who responded to my posting concerning the underhopped
pale ale.  There were two main concerns:  that a simple hop tea steep would
not give me the bitterness I needed and that boiling extra hops in water 
alone would
lead to harsh flavors.

I therefore figured out that I had to make up about 20 IBUs, which was 3/4 
ounce
of Northern Brewer pellets, which I boiled for 45 minutes in a gallon and a 
half
of water that I adjusted to pH 5.7 with lactic acid.  Racked off the 
sediment into
my keg, added the fermented ale, and force carbonated it.  I tried a pint 
the
following day and it has a wonderful hop bitterness, so all is well.  It is 
still
very cloudy, but very tastey !!!

Thanks again all !!!

Russ

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Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 08:18:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Zurekbrau at aol.com
Subject: Paddles

I converted a Keg to a brew pot and found that it is very hard to stir the
wort in this pot.  I bought a paddle.  It looks like it is sealed with
urathane.  My question is what should I do to this paddle to use it safely to
stir wort?

Rich Zurek
Carpentersville IL
Zurekbrau.aol.com


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