---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@ brew.oeonline.com
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Lined Copper Brewpot (oldmail)" <MurrayM at WAIRC.GOVT.NZ>
  SA Cranberry "Lambic" ("Paul A. Hausman")
  RE: Coopers Spakling Ale yeast/recipe (myles.parker)
  Bierre De Garde (Paul Niebergall)
  re:Coopers Sparkling (Stephen Neate)
  Re: building a RIMS heating chamber ("C.D. Pritchard")
  re: splitting CO2 to multiple kegs (Sharon/Dan Ritter)
  Priming Sugar (Terry Neudorf)
  Raspberry Cream (Cody Payne)
  Re: AHA yow yow (Kelly Jones)
  RE: AOB/AHA (Rick Olivo)
  New Brewer lookin for advice on next step ("Layne")
  Plastic Conical Fermenter (Marty Tippin)
  RIMS systems ("STARCAT")
  Business (Bill Giffin)
  RE: Counterflow chillers & trub removal/mashing vs steeping (George De Piro)
  True Brew Ale? ("Larry F. Byard")
  Brew Dogs (Scott Dornseif)
  Wither the style of Rye? ("Gregory, Guy J.")
  trub removal/mashing vs. steeping (BAYEROSPACE)
  Trub removal question ("Bridges, Scott")
  CF vs Immersion and Pellets vs Whole (Charles Burns)
  Yeast and Ph of water (Liz Blades)
  Re: skunking causes (Scott Murman)
  Iodine vs. Stainless - Metallurgy (Palmer)
  AHA / Fermenting in 10 Gallon Cornys / Dave Draper? (RANDY ERICKSON)
  re: Steeping vs Mashing (Charles Burns)
  Designing Great Beers..R. Daniels ("Rob Moline")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 11:58:00 +1200
From: "Murray Mulholland (oldmail)" <MurrayM at WAIRC.GOVT.NZ>
Subject: Lined Copper Brewpot

Greetings from New Zealand. Following are some (probably dumb) questions
from a reltive newcomer to the hobby of home brewing from the Southern
Hemisphere. Any answers you can give me would be much appreciated.

I have recently come by an old boiler and would like to establish its
suitability for use as a brewpot. I would appreciate any advice from
more experienced brewers out there.

The boiler dates from the 1950's and was apparently designed for use in
the catering industry. Before using it for brewing however I would  like
to be sure that it will not contaminate the wort during boiling.

The vessel is copper but the inside is plated with another metal which
has the appearance of weathered zinc or aluminium (i.e. dull light
grey). Does anybody have any idea what this metal might be, or how I
could test it to determine what it is.

I understand that aluminium is generally considered safe for boiling
wort, but what about zinc and other metals which it may possibly be? If
it is not safe, then I might consider electroplating the inside with
copper as an option? What are the practicalities of doing this at home?

The vessel has two identical elements which contact the liquid, and it
has two power settings:- medium (one element only); and high (both
elements in paralllel). The overall rating for the boiler is 230V, 9.5A
indicating that each element is probably around 1000W. Is this likely to
cause scorching/burning  of the wort?.

Finally, on the subject of cleaning this brewpot, I note reference to a
cleaning product called TSP or Tri Sodium Phosphate in the digest and in
other brewing sources on the web.This is referred to as being available
in paint and hardware stores for the purpose of cleaning surfaces prior
to painting. I have never seen any product labelled TSP in New Zealand,
but there is  product commonly called Sugar Soap which is often used for
this purpose. The packaging does not state what the main ingredient and
is none of the retailers I have spoken to know what it is either. Is it
possible that this may be TSP by another name.




Murray Mulholland
Hamilton
New Zealand
murraym at wairc.govt.nz

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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 17:48:33 -0500 (EST)
From: "Paul A. Hausman" <lion!paul at saturn.planet.net>
Subject: SA Cranberry "Lambic"

in HBD#2360 Mark D. Johnson wrote:

> Subject: ? about SA Cranberry Lambic
> 
> My girlfriend and I picked up a case of Sam Adams CranLambic (Does Ocean
> Spray have a version?) last week.  It was on clearance for 14.99 a case.
> My girfriend said that she had it before and liked it.  Anyway, we got it
> home and it had a smell reminiscant(sp) of stewed tomatoes.  Is this beer
> still good and I just don't like it, or is it bad.  The best-before date
> is 3/97.

The Sam Adams product typically tastes like a fairly bland american ale
with cranberry flavoring added.  If it doesn't, take it back.  (Even if 
it does, I'd have taken it back, but that's just my taste. ;-) )

> Thanks, i know this isn't brew-related, but it is still beer related.
> But on a brew-related comment, what exactly is a Lambic, anyway?

Lambic is a spontaneously-femented ale brewed in a certain region
of Belgium.  It is fairly dry and sour.  Those who like it consider
it the _real_ "Champagne of Beers".  Those who don't just consider 
it beer gone sour.  Oh, and it's expensive ($2-6 per _bottle_)

Due to it's sourness it takes fruit very well.  So, if you like fruit
flavored beverages, you will find Kriek (cherry) Lambic, Framboise 
(rasperry) Lambic, Peche (peach) Lambic and others.

If the FTC had any rules about beer style advertising, Sam Adams' 
would never get away with that name.  But then, a lot of micros
would be in trouble too.

- -- 
Paul A. Hausman   <Paul at Lion.com>
Lion Technology Inc., Lafayette, NJ, USA

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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:41:21 +1000
From: myles.parker at deetya.gov.au
Subject: RE: Coopers Spakling Ale yeast/recipe

>G,day
>I orignally sent this by private E-mail to Dana but will post it to HBD as
>well seeing that Dave Sapsis said there had been no responses.
>
>Dana (and others),
>	I only just subscribed to the HBD (really good) last week and I am not aware
>of any previous discussions on this subject, but I think I remember something
>here in OZ about the yeast in the Cooper's Sparkling Ale bottles is freshly
>pitched for the bottling and not the yeast used in the fermentation.
>	As for culturing the yeast - you most certainly can! I have cultured many
>times from the dregs of a bottle (after pouring off the beer down the
>sink....just kidding!!!! I drink the liquid gold first of course!) The yeast
>usually comes up within a day or so under the right conditions, and depending
>on the freshness of the contents of course.
>	Dave,
>	I'm glad you enjoyed your trip to Adelaide. Yes, it is a nice town (about
>600,000 people). My wife is from there so it must be good.(brownie points).
>If you ever get back there (and you like wine as well as beer), take the time
>to check out the Barossa Valley and Clare Valley wine areas. These are one of
>the biggest/main wine growing areas in Australia (home to the World Famous
>Penfold's Grange Hermitage among others).
>  	May the good god Bacchus smile down upon you,
>	Myles Parker
	Canberra Brewers Club,
>	Canberra (capital of ), 
>	Australia.   
>
>

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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 17:54:01 -0600
From: Paul Niebergall <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject:  Bierre De Garde

Home Brew Ingesters,

FWIW, I have been trying to brew a decent biere de garde
(ala Tres Monts, Grand Coulette, ect.) for a couple years now
and have had some success.  I think I have the grain bill
worked out, it goes something like this (6-gallon batch):

10 pounds Belgian pale ale malt
1 pound Belgian Munich malt
1 pound Belgian malted wheat
0.5 pound Belgian CaraPils malt
4 to 6 ounces Belgian ?Special B? malt
1.5 pounds light spray dried malt extract (DME)
1.5 pounds Belgian candi sugar

All malts (except the DME) are Dewolf-Coysins.  This grain
bill will give you a big beer gravity and flavor.  For bierre de
garde you want to get the gravity above 1.060 (in Belgium, I
believe this classifies as a ?strong ale?).  The above recipe
yields about 1.067 (at 72 percent calculated efficiency) which
I have found to be just right for bierre de garde, Belgian Triple,
or strong ale.

I add the DME because this grain bill exceeds my mashing
capacity.  The candi sugar adds a lightness and contributes
to a subdued vinous flavor (that winey taste) which enhances
a good strong ale.  The ?Special B? malt is a really smooth
tasting dark malt.  I use it some for taste, but mainly use it
for color adjustment.  I steep it in a quart of water and add it
little by little until I get the color I am looking for (this is really
useful when trying to brew a Belgian Double (dark) versus a
Belgian Triple (light).  I believe that Tres Monts you specified
is more of a blonde color, so you may want to leave the
Special B out all together.

Now the hard part, the yeast.

I have made beers with the above recipe (or slight variations
thereof) on three occasions.  Twice I use Wyeast Belgian Ale
(1214).  Both times it came out way to estery.  The first time
fermentation temperature was about 75 degrees F.  That beer
came out tasting like Bazooka Bubblegum.  It was really
gross at first, but with time (months) it actually tasted pretty
good.  The second time the fermentation temperature was
about 60 degrees F.  This time the beer came out really
good, but it still had a banana flavor that wasn?t quite to
style.  The last time I made this beer (just bottled it last
Saturday) I used Wyeast Belgian Strong Ale Yeast (1388).  I
was so paranoid about esters, I fermented it in the garage at
about 58 degrees F (way cold for this yeast, but I got good
activity and attenuation anyway).  I tasted the beer when I
bottled it and guess what, no perceptible esters.  The only
problem is the beer tasted a little too clean and smooth, no
winey, estery, or phenol character that you really need in a
biere de garde or strong ale.  But anyway, that?s how it
tasted at bottling time.  Time will be the judge on this one.

Anyway, I can't seem to get the yeast right.  I would rather
use a commercial version if one is available.  Does anyone
have any ideas out there.

Nazdrowie, 
Paul Niebergall
(pnieb at burnsmcd.com)



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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 11:30:27 +1030
From: Stephen Neate <Stephen.Neate at adl.soils.csiro.au>
Subject: re:Coopers Sparkling

Dave Sapsis presented a very well written synopsis of the Coopers Brewery
operations in Adelaide.

I only have two small nit-picks.  The Malting facility is in an outer suburb
of Adelaide and is closer to 10 Km north of the city centre, the Brewery
being about 5 km east.  I guess the two may be about 15 km apart.

The dry yeast supplier in case anybody is trying to source them is Mauri not
Mowry.  They are a very large firm servicing the food industry.

As far as I know all malting barley grown in South Austalia and Victoria is
grown by private farmers using cultivars bred by the Universities and
Agriculture Departments and in the public domain.  Together South Ausrtalia
and Victoria produce about 50% of Australia's malting barley.

Coopers new malting facility is indeed large and impressive, but there are
other maltsters in Australia, the most widely spread and probably the
biggest is Joe White Maltings which is in most barley growing states.


Stephen Neate
In Adelaide


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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 21:19:56 +0700
From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at mail.chattanooga.net>
Subject: Re: building a RIMS heating chamber

Dion posted that one 

>needs to take it apart after EVERY brew and clean it... Left to dry it will
eventually turn to the black carbonized crud.  And if it does 
>not dry between brews, it can even rot on you.

Dion's post prompted me to pull the heating element from RIMS.  First time
in 5 mashes.  The only deposit on the element was a dusting of carbonate
which brushed off easy.  There was was about .5 cc of nonadhererant,
odorless brown material at the very bottom of the element housing (i.e. on
top of the element's base).  I suspect this is residue from malt particles
that made it through the pump.  Otherwise, the element looks like a new one.

The keys to not crudding-up RIMS heating elements are:
1. Have a decent flow (>1/2 GPM or so) during mashes.  Running it even
breifly without flow is a definite no-no. If one is prone to doing this,
consider interlocking the heater with the pump electrically.
2. Don't overheat the wort in the chamber (I kill heater power when the wort
discharge temp is >2 degF over the target rest temp.) 
3. Run at least a batch of hot water through the system as a flush before
storage- I flush twice, once with tap water then recirc with a gallon or so
of 168 degF water for ~5 minutes.
4. Put a drain valve at the bottom of the chamber to both drain wort and
flush water and as a air opening so the inside of the chamber can dry
between uses (the other end is has open tubing so a bit of air can
circulate).  The valve connects to the chamber about 1/4" above the
element's base.  If I was doing it again, I'd put it flush with the heater
base.  This would help eliminate the brown stuff I noticed. 

c.d. pritchard   cdp at chattanooga.net 
http://caladan.chattanooga.net/~cdp/index.html


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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 17:10:47 -0800
From: Sharon/Dan Ritter <ritter at camasnet.com>
Subject: re: splitting CO2 to multiple kegs

Scott Rohlf writes:

>I would like to know the best way for splitting the CO2 from
>my regulator to service both kegs.  I actually would like 3 outputs.
>(2 kegs and CPBF).

Bolted inside the back of my beer fridge I have a 3-line valved manifold.
The incoming line (running from the CO2 tank thru the wall of the fridge)
branches to three ports each with a shut-off valve. Attached to each port I
have three kegs in various stages of conditioning/lagering. On one of the
ports I have attached a small regulator that steps down the pressure below
what is coming in on the main line.  That way I can have a lager
conditioning at 17psi and an ale conditioning at 7psi.  All my hardware
came from Cliff Tanner at Braukunst (1-800-972-2728).  The initial
investment is kind of high but the convenience and versatility is worth it
IMO. A 3-line distribution manifold costs around $40 and the small
regulator was custom built for me by Cliff and ran about $35. The only
drawback is the mass of hoses and valves inside a refrigerator that
sometimes has four kegs crammed in it! Numbering each port and gas line
helps.


Dan Ritter <ritter at camasnet.com>
Ritter's MAMMOTH Brewery
Grangeville, Idaho



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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 22:08:18 -0600
From: Terry Neudorf <tm.neudorf at sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Priming Sugar

This is my first posting. I see many things here that interest me about
homebrewing.

I've been brewing for about 2 years using extracts, I haven't yet
graduated to mashing but I plan to. With that in mind after reading
"The Joy of Home Brewing" by Charlie Papazian I followed everything
except how big a brew pot do you use. Do I have to boil the whole 
5 gallons? If so that's a pretty big pot!

Anyway my subject concerns priming sugar, I live at an altitude of about
2200 ft. and I have used as much as 1 2/3 cup corn sugar for priming 
with no blowups although I have to cool my beer as it is quite gasy
warm. I'm talking 5 Canadian gallons here.

What's the deal with Charlie Papazian, I thought his brewing book was
the best I've ever read!

Good Brewing

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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 21:37:25 -0700 (MST)
From: Cody Payne <paynec at ucsu.Colorado.EDU>
Subject: Raspberry Cream

        I just recently had a raspberry cream brew made by Bluemoon.  I was
wondering if anyone could tell me what gives the beer its cream flavor?  Is
it lactose like in a sweet stout or what?

Thanks,
Cody Payne
paynec at ucsu.colorado.edu
http://ucsu.Colorado.EDU/~paynec/Home.html


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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 22:02:19 -0800
From: Kelly Jones <kejones at ptdcs2.intel.com>
Subject: Re: AHA yow yow

In HBD #2361, Scott Bridges hits the nail on the head with an eloquent
description of the AHA:  In summary, it's not an association of members,
it's a business, owned by Charlie Papazian, whose sole purpose is to
make money for Charlie and his 'Angels' and support their globe-trotting
pub crawls.  What's more, this is all perfectly legal.  If you don't
like them lining their pockets with your money, or don't think the
magazine alone is worth the dues, don't give them your money.

The only problem with this model is that homebrewers really NEED and
WANT a national organization to act in THEIR best interest.  I belong to
a local club that does this on a local level, but with with the
(hundreds?) of thousands of homebrewers in this country (and our
neighbors), it would be nice to have a national organization which
served our needs.

Kelly

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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 13:03:58 -0600
From: Rick Olivo <ahspress at win.bright.net>
Subject: RE: AOB/AHA

AN OPEN LETTER TO CHARLIE

Dear Charlie:

You probably don't know this but you've always been something of a hero
to me. You are one of a select few that has been responsible for
bringing the grand avocation of homebrewing to untold thousands of
people. You helped make the magical art of brewing your own beer
accessable to the masses. Buy a new brew kit, whose book is it that
comes with the plastic fermenter, carboy and ubiquitous "kit" of malt
extract? Charlie P's. For your contributions, you deserve a stained
glass window in the homebrew hall of fame. Thus it saddens me a great
deal to read all that has transpired in the various threads concerning
the AOB/AHA. I am especially saddened to see your answer to the various,
quite serious charges that have been made against those organizations
and you personally. At a time when a comprehensive answering of the
charges was needed, we got a soliloquy about the good old days. When we
should have been looking at hard facts we got hard cheese about how you
had nothing to apologize for. While I understand your point of view, and
to an extent sympathize with it, (No one likes to deal with a pack of
baying hounds) I must say, it's not enough, Charlie, not by a long shot.
I have seen that kind of answer before. I have seen it from the
Watergate to Whitewater. It has the stink of cover-up all over it.
Understand, Charlie that I am accusing you of nothing. I have no basis
in fact to make any accusations. I write to warn you that you are headed
down a perilous path. It is a path that leads to class action suits, to
Internal Revenue Investigations, to newspaper investigative reporters
snooping through every tax record, interviewing every disgruntled former
AHA member, sticking tape recorders under your nose every time you step
onto the street. It isn't a thing that is going to go away. It gets
worse, like an open sore that stinks worse with the gangrene of scandal
every day you allow it to fester. Charlie, you may say I envy you, and
you would be right. Who wouldn't? You are living the kind of life, at
the head of an orgainzation you founded that is the envy of every
homebrewer. You are a very lucky man. You are also a very intellegent
man. You would not have risen to your present position if you were not.
You must be smart enough to know that the current level of anger caused
by your stonewalling is only bound to rise. You must also realize that,
as the head of a non-profit organization, you owe your loyalty to the
people who foot the bills. You have a responsibility to be forthcoming
to them. I tell you this as an impartial outsider. I am not now, nor
have I ever been a member of AHA or AOB. I tell you this because of my
admiration of your achievements, in full recognition, that as a man, you
are fully as capable as any of the rest of us of pulling a boneheaded
mistake. I only hope that you will show us your quality and make the
kind of reforms that would make AHA the kind of organization I would be
proud to join. I pray that you do it soon, before the organization you
have worked so very hard to create is dissolved in the acid of this
increasingly bitter and divisive struggle. I say this to you as a
contemporary and homebrewer of 25 years standing. I was homebrewing
years before it became legal in the United States. I know how far our
avocation has come in the past 25 years. I appreciate what you have done
for homebrewing. I hate to see what is now happening. It's sad and it's
stupid. You alone have the ability to bring this mess to an end, and to
allow homebrewing, AHA and AOB to continue to prosper and develop. Show
us that you are indeed a man of vision and not the arrogant power-hungry
moneygrubber some have made you out to be. We ask no more and expect no
less.

Respectfully yours,
Rick Olivo (aka Strange Brewer)
Vitae Sine Cervesae Mamulatas!!! (Life without beer sucks!!!)
(With apologies to Cicero)

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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 00:37:40 -0800
From: "Layne" <wetpetz at oberon.ark.com>
Subject: New Brewer lookin for advice on next step

Hey all,
I've been looking at HBD for some time as they occasionally get posted in
some of the newsgroups.  Today I decided to sign up.
	I've been making wines for two years and I decided that it was time to do
beer.  I love good beer and I've been buying various 650 ml bottles of
Microbrew for a few months to figure out what I like and what I would make.
 The HB shops in my town are fairly limited as far as experience and
materials available so I've been getting all of my information from the
net.  I have ordered Charlie Papizans Book at the book store and it should
be here in a week.
	I tried an extract ale first. (Monton's) and It was okay but the corn
sugar made it taste watery and kind of like a Molson brew.  Not bad but not
what I've been getting from microbrew beers.  Next I tried a double extract
Pale Ale and I used Crystal grain, Hop pellets and I actually boiled it.  I
devised the recipe by looking at the Cat's Meow at the Brewery and used
similar techniques although I couldn't get the ingredients to copy a recipe
exactly.  It's brewing now but I've had problems.
	I would really like folks to see what I've done so I can get some feedback
on my process and solutions to problems.  I've put a page up describing
what I did at http://oberon.ark.com/~wetpetz/pale.html  If nothing else I
think you more experienced brewers will have a chuckle or you might be sick
at the way I brew.  I do need some questions answered though and they are
in the page.
	I intend to get into All Grain Brews but I am contempt to use extract
until I find a good source for ingredients, ie mail-order or a trip to
Victoria/Vancouver someday.
	I bought a 20 L SS pot the other day for $20 new at a variety store.  I
hope to get a 10 gal Gott and another pot for mashing but I'm not sure yet.
 It will be a while, I want to read that book first.
	I'm looking forward to learning and drinking good beers.  I'm sure that
this will be a good source for that even though it may involve weeding out
the flames about AHA.

Layne Rossi

P.S.  Anyone know of any HB clubs on Vancouver Island, Canada?

Layne & Katrise Rossi
wetpetz at oberon.ark.com

***********************************************************
To try and fail is better than
failing because we didn't try!
***********************************************************


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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 07:24:36 -0600
From: Marty Tippin <mtippin at swbell.net>
Subject: Plastic Conical Fermenter

Saw an ad in the Jan/Feb 97 Brewing Techniques for a plastic
cylindro-conical fermenter that looks pretty neat - just wondering if
anyone has tried one of these and whether they're any good.

The specs:  $29.95 for the fermenter only; $59.95 for "complete kit"
including fermenter, stand, ball valve, hose fittings and drain tube; 6.5
gal capacity, 60 degree cone angle, food grade plastic, 6" airtight lid,
"heavy wall construction", 3/4" NPT fittings.  The drawing appears to have
a place for attaching an airlock.  Sold and distributed exclusively by
"BrewBuddys", 310-798-BREW

Based on the ad anyway, it looks like a pretty useful toy.  Any comments?

 -Marty


- --------------------------------------------------------------------
Marty Tippin          | Tippin's Law #18:  A watched pot never
mtippin at swbell.net    | boils, but an unwatched pot always boils
martyt at geoaccess.com  | over.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------
Marty's Homebrew Gadgets: http://alpha.rollanet.org/users/mtippin
- --------------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 08:47:54 -0800
From: "STARCAT" <starcat at pathwaynet.com>
Subject: RIMS systems

Maybe I'm just dense, but I've been mash brewing for over a year now and I
have no idea what a RIMS system is; what the acronym stands for, and what
advantages it supposedly has.  I've found descriptions of the system
components on various web pages, and I think I have an idea of what they're
getting at, but I'd like some sort of  informed explanation of the whole
thing.  To me it looks like a lot of gadgetry to accomplish what I do with
a basic cooler and immersion chiller.  Thanks!


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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 08:41:58 -0600
From: Bill Giffin <billgiffin at maine.com>
Subject: Business

Good morning all,

Scott Bridges said:
>I think that the answers to the questions at hand are very clear.  The 
>AHA/AOB, despite what they claim, is a business, period. 

Here is the problem.  If the AOB/AHA  is a business then we all support them
whether or not we are a member with our tax dollars.  I do not think that we
should finance the gadding about of the AOB President  for his own enjoyment.  

Bill


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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 08:34:13 -0800
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro)
Subject: RE: Counterflow chillers & trub removal/mashing vs steeping

     Hi all,
     
     Dave Burley explains that he finds it easier to remove trub with his 
     counterflow chiller than with an immersion chiller.  He does this by 
     using a chore boy pad as a filter on his racking cane at the ENTRANCE 
     to the chiller.
     
     While this would help remove hot break, it will not remove COLD break, 
     which is what I was talking about.  Cold break is made up of proteins 
     and lipids, etc. that are soluble at high temperatures, but crash out 
     of solution upon rapid chilling.  They cannot be filtered out of hot 
     wort with a porous filter. 
     
     Jim Cave's method of allowing the cold break material to settle does 
     work well (I used to do this), but I never seem to have enough free 
     carboys around to do this anymore.  I also don't like the idea of the 
     cool wort sitting around unpitched for a few hours, although I never 
     did have a problem with this method.
     -----------------
     Patrick asks what the difference is between mashing and steeping.  
     Mashing involves actually converting starch to sugar through enzymatic 
     action, while steeping just dissolves the sugars in malts that are 
     "pre-converted."  In practical terms, there is a higher grain:water 
     ratio when mashing, and all malts can be used, because 
     saccharification of the starches occurs.
     
     Only malts that have been saccharified in the husk (like crystal malt) 
     can be steeped.  If you try to steep non-saccharified malts, you'll 
     end up with starch in your finished beer.  This is useful only when 
     making pLambic.
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)

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Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 11:46:26 -0500
From: "Larry F. Byard" <lbyard at gwi.net>
Subject: True Brew Ale?

A couple of weeks ago I decided to venture into using liquid yeast.  The
only liquid yeasts available at our local health food store were "True Brew
Ale" and "True Brew Lager."  Being anxious to advance after reading
everything I could find on yeast, I bought the ale.  The package also says
'a product of Wyeast.'  Does anyone know which Wyeast Ale it is?

If appearance, as compared to previous batches made with the same recipe,
using Edme dry yeast, is any indicator, the ale I made last Saturday from
this yeast--which started a little slower than Edme, but is still bubbling
every 10-12 seconds after six days--is going to be quite good.

Thank you,  Larry  (lbyard at gwi.net)

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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 10:58:15 -0500
From: Scott Dornseif <RoundBoy at shoga.wwa.com>
Subject: Brew Dogs

My dogs breath smells like dog food.

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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 97 09:23:00 PST
From: "Gregory, Guy J." <GGRE461 at ecy.wa.gov>
Subject: Wither the style of Rye?


A question for the judges:

When rye constitutes a significant proportion of the grain in a beer, how 
does one compete with it?  If brewed as an IPA, for example, should I enter 
it in the IPA competition, or should I enter it into some "other" category, 
with the dryhopped  huckleberry wheat lambic stouts, for example?
Your guidance is appreciated.

Guy Gregory
GuyG4 at aol.com
Lightning Creek Home Brewing

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Date:     Fri, 28 Feb 1997 12:05 -0600
From: M257876 at sl1001.mdc.com (BAYEROSPACE)
Subject:  trub removal/mashing vs. steeping

collective homebrew conscience:

george dp and dave b wrote:

<george> 
>        I find that this is one 
>      of the disadvantages of CF chillers; complete trub removal by 
>      whirlpooling is more easily done when using an immersion chiller.

<dave>
>Sorry, but my experience is just the opposite.  As I have detailed elsewhere, I
>use a filter (Choreboy) on the entrance end of the racking cane after
>whirlpooling and my wort is crystal clear going into the CF chiller.<snip>

i think maybe george is referring to hot *and* cold break.  dave, if you're
racking hot wort into a cf chiller, you haven't even created the cold break
yet, right?  so even if it's crystal clear going in, it's probably cloudy as 
heck coming out, correct?  when is the cold break separated out with your 
method?

dave also wrote:

> If
>you physically agitate hops and trub by sucking them up, my experience is that
>it is impossible to filter inline as you are doing and get a clear wort because
>the flocculated trub gets re-dispersed.   This method of filtering at the
>entrance end of the racking cane is effective whether you are dealing with hot
>or cold wort and can therefore be used with the CF chiller or the immersion
>chiller.

my experience with agitating trub is exactly as dave describes it.  however,
unlike dave, i have never been able to draw the wort out of the kettle gently
enough to prevent some of the trub from re-dispersing.  even the slight motion
(induced by the fluid flow) near the end of the racking cane is enough to send 
my trub back into solution.  i also end up wasting a lot of wort this way, as
i can never tip the kettle up without the trub sliding down toward the racking
cane.  and in the settling tank later, when i rack off the trub, there is 
always a little bit of trub still in suspension.  it's not much at all, really,
but it's never "brilliant" wort.


patrick stirling asked:

> what's the difference between
>mashing and steeping? I thought mashing *was* steeping, i.e. soaking the
>crushed grains in water at a specific temp. for a specific time.


this is kind of like the "pale malt" and "leaf hop" debates we've had before.
in order for us to communicate properly........  

mashing is familiarly used to mean manipulating
a grist/liquid "mash" to induce enzymatic action.  temperature, pH, mash
thickness, etc. are regulated to create the desired wort characteristics, 
which carry through to the final product.  for an example of where mashing is 
not simply "soaking the crushed grains in water at a specific temp. for a 
specific time", consider how pilsner urquell and many other beers are 
produced: decoction mashing.  some portion of the grist bill
must contribute enzymes.   

steeping does normally not imply any sort of enzymatic action.  you're just
trying to dissolve soluble items from the grains.  in this definition, no
enzymes are required for the process to succeed.  


these are just semantics, really.  the above descriptions fit most of what
i've read about brewing.  it is important to understand how these terms are
typically used.


brew hard, 

mark bayer

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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 97 11:42:00 EST
From: "Bridges, Scott" <bridgess at mmsmtp.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>
Subject: Trub removal question



The recent trub removal thread has me wondering.  I've never removed the 
trub from my wort.  I use a CF chiller and end up with all the cold break in 
the primary.  I just read about someone (sorry, John Varady maybe?)  who 
allows the trub to settle in a holding tank then transfers into the primary 
and pitches the yeast.  Would there be anything wrong with pitching the 
yeast in the holding tank?  Would the yeast settle out with the trub?  Gut 
feel says no.  I'm assuming that the yeast would already be in suspension. 
 Any other opinions?  Would this give a shorter lag time all other things 
being equal?  I use Irish moss in the kettle and seem to get a really 
masssive break that takes time to settle.  I'd be concerned about leaving 
the wort to settle a long time (like overnight) without pitching the yeast. 


Scott


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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 97 11:16 PST
From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns)
Subject: CF vs Immersion and Pellets vs Whole

It appears to me that the disagreements between the users of CF Chillers and 
Immersion chillers regarding Cold Break and other gunk really revolve around 
the use of whole vs. pelletized hops.

I use mostly pellets with immersion chilling. I whirlpool the wort at end of 
boil, cover it and let it sit for 15-30 minutes while I clean up and play 
with the dog. I have a piece of nylon gauze covering the bottom of my 
racking cane to filter the gunk (trub and hop).

I rack from the side of the kettle into a 6.5 gallon glass carboy. I always 
end up with a large pile of hop spooge and trub from the cool break in the 
center at the bottom of the kettle (8.25 US gallons). I leave about 2 quarts 
of wort in there with the gunk. I can see where having a counterflow chiller 
would cause me to end up with a _lot_ of crud in the carboy, mostly hop spooge.

With whole hops in the kettle only, I can easily see that a counterflow 
chiller would work just fine leaving all the hop spooge behind and all the 
hot break and the cool break. 

I call it cool break because I usually chill the wort down to 80F degrees 
for pitching, and then the wort with the yeast cools down to between 60F and 
64F, and then I get the cold break (maybe a quarter inch layer at most) 
overnight.

So, if I decided to convert to a CF chiller, I would also make the move to 
whole hops at the same time. I've been thinking more about going with whole 
hops anyway because I just swear I've made better tasting beer that way when 
I have used them.

PS - the two quarts of gunky wort I leave in the kettle stay there overnight 
(covered and cool) and the next day I strain that wort into quart sized jars 
and store the wort in the refrigerator. When it comes time to make a 
starter, I already have the wort (no need to purchase DME). I _always_ 
re-boil the starter wort for 10 minutes (wouldn't want to die from botulism) 
after thinning it down to between 1.030 and 1.040 before cooling and 
pitching any yeast (which I recover and wash from earlier fermentations). 
This process is very cost effective, making the cost of a batch only that of 
the grains, hops and propane.

Charley


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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 97 19:28:16 GMT
From: blades at airtime.co.uk (Liz Blades)
Subject: Yeast and Ph of water

Hi,
Here in the UK it is the norm to use dried beer yeast.
Most of the instructions say to rehydrate the the yeast in water(I know,Iknow).
A problem that has arisen locally is that the Ph of our water supply has 
reached a staggering 9.3.
This has the effect of killing the yeast.
Do you know if any studies have been done to quantify the tolerence of yeast 
to Ph values of common or garden tap water?
One of our manufacturers is going to carry out experiments in this field,and 
I will publish the results as soon as I can.
Can I stress that we are interested in rehydration of yeast in untreated tap 
water and not any other medium such as wort or treated water.
TIA

Private email welcome.

Cheers

Liz
Liz Blades
Proprietor of Blades Home Brewery
http://www.dmatters.co.uk/Blades/blades.html


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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 11:53:08 -0800
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: Re: skunking causes


Dave, fix your editor to 72 columns please, pretty please.  With sugar
on top.

On 26 Feb 97 14:16:19 EST "David R. Burley" wrote: 

> I have never disagreed that bottle skunking can occur if beer is
> mishandled by being kept in the light and not light proofed by using
> modified hop acids, just tried to understand why 1) so-called
> skunking occurs in beer that's never seen the light, 2) why brewers
> outside with boiled wort don't get skunking, yet their beers being
> consumed at the time do experience temporary skunking which can appear
> and disappear in a matter of a few minutes in going from sun to shade
> and 3) why a photochemical reaction discussed and depicted as a direct
> photochemical reaction in many articles can never happen as depicted
> because the main actor doesn't absorb the wavelength of the incident
> light allowed by colored bottles or even clear lime glass.  Yet beers
> in brown bottles as well as green do get photochemically skunked
> and/or at least get labelled as skunked.

I'll try to give a not-so-wild-ass guess for points 1 and 3.  Light is
energy, and compounds can absorb energy from many sources.  Others
have pointed out here that heat can skunk beer just as light can.  A
beer may be packaged to keep the light out, but still skunk because it
was stored outdoors on a warehouse loading dock in the summer.  Try
microwaving a beer.  This can also explain your point 3, i.e. it's not
really a photochemical reaction that causes skunking, rather a change
in chemical state caused by any source of excitation.  I tend to doubt
this explanation because it's too simple, and I'm sure the folks at
Miller, Bud, etc. would have come out with it by now.  Of course,
judging by their products they might just *like* skunked beer.

As for point 2, someone posted a few digests back a theory about
surface area, mercapatans (spelling?), and olfactory senses that
seemed reasonable and would explain the behavior.  Since no-one has
come forward to poke holes in it, why not consider it more strongly?

If you really want to answer some of these issues, you will have to
resort to performing physical experiments at some point;)

SM

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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 17:17:01 -0600
From: Palmer <johnj at primenet.com>
Subject: Iodine vs. Stainless - Metallurgy

Howdy Group,
I am finally getting set back up with HBD access after my job change.

Al Stevens wondered:
Are there any metalurgists out there that could tell me why chlorine
is not bad for the SS that is used in the dairy industry, but bad for 
cornelius kegs?

The answer is: Probably because the chlorine based sanitizers and
cleaners that the dairy industry uses are Inhibited (usually with
silicates) to help prevent corrosion.  There is a big difference between
using a chlorine based inhibited sanitizer and using Bleach on stainless
steel.  All of the Halogens attack stainless steel, but Iodine is less
corrosive to stainless than chlorine at the conditions that homebrewers
are concerned with. Dairyman too for that matter. But in terms of
commercial use, chlorine based solutions are more common and less
expensive, thus their higher percentage of use. Doesnt mean that they
are better.

Bleach, being what most homebrewers have access to, is very corrosive
and that is why we tend to cite Iodophor as a preferred sanitizer. Also,
Iodine is not much for Cleaning, so dairymen, looking for an economical
combination cleaning and sanitizing agent would go for chlorine-based.

John Palmer
metallurgist 

3M Unitek Research and Development

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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 13:17:45 -0800
From: RANDY ERICKSON <RANDYE at mid.org>
Subject: AHA / Fermenting in 10 Gallon Cornys / Dave Draper?

Thanks to everyone who sent me mail and posted about the AOB/AHA
thread.  I left the HBD when it started coming several times a day last fall
and just returned to see quite a spirited thread.

On the one hand it is good to see an expanded Board of advisors that
included many respected brewers including a few from right here on
HBD.  On the other hand, I have some direct experience with an advisory
committee related to a research project conducted by a California
government agency.  Unfortunately, all the experience in the world and
the best of advice means little when the staff has full authority to do as
they please.  And that sure seems to be the case at the AHA currently. 
I'm hopeful that if enough of us get fed up and leave, they'll have to
become more responsive in order to survive.  My only consolation is that
they need my support more than I need theirs.

**********************

George Schamel asks about Fermenting in 10 Gal Cornys and posted a
summary of lots of good advice.

I occasionally ferment large batches in a thirteen gallon keg.  The keg is
stainless, but is rubber coated at both ends so I can't use is as a boiler. 
However, the snap ring pried out easily, the dip tube lifts right out, and all
I needed was a Number 11 stopper to complete my fermenter.

It's heavy when full (double batch) though, I can barely lift it to a bench
by myself for syphoning.  I'm not really comfortable lugging around much
more than a 6.7 gal full carboy, at least for any kind of distance.

As I recall, George, you said that you had a bad back, and I'm curious
how you intend to move around large quantities of wort and beer.  Do
you have some sort of pump that won't degrade the fermented beer?

**********************

Finally, has anyone heard from Dave (I'm not from here, I just live here)
Draper?  His website in Australia seems to be gone, and see he hasn't
posted in well over a year.

Thanks all -- Randy in Modesto

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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 13:20:20 -0800
From: Charles Burns <cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us>
Subject: re: Steeping vs Mashing

Steeping will extract existing sugars from highly kilned malts like
Crystal or Caramel. It will also extract color and flavors from malts
like chocolate and black. Any starches in grains that are steeped will
be extracted as starch, unless the steeping is done with a water/grain
ration of <= 1.5 quarts/lb AND you include some pale malts that still
have enzymes intact (and of course, that's what mashing is and that's
the difference).

If you have web access, take a look at 

http://alpha.rollanet.org:80/Library.html#AllGrain

for some better descriptions of the process.

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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 97 15:29:34 PST
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at kansas.net>
Subject: Designing Great Beers..R. Daniels

Designing Great Beers...Ray Daniels....
	ISBN  0-937381-50-0. Published by Brewer's Publications, Division of the
Association of Brewers, P.O. Box 1679, Boulder, Colorado, 80306-1679.
(303)-447-2825. 
	(No affiliation, just a satisfied book buyer, though I have recently
joined the AHA, for the 1st time.)


Rob Moline
Little Apple Brewing Company
Manhattan, Kansas

"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"

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