---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@ brew.oeonline.com
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  RIMS heating chamber debate ("Mike Szwaya")
  SLOWING AH ("KYLE.M.DRUEY.G0CT")
  clarification, AHA/AOB (Jim Busch)
  Copper and HSA? ("Costello, Jim")
  When to add malto-dextrine (AJUNDE)
  Ray Daniels _Designing_Great_Beer_ (JCHenning)
  Using yeast cake (Jim & Patti Hust)
  Re: AHA thread (J. Matthew Saunders)
  BREW MUTTS (Rick Olivo)
  Irish Moss (KennyEddy)
  Hop alpha decay over time (M.P. Manning)
  Soapy EKG's and High-Temperature Ferments (KennyEddy)
  1720's Porter replica (korz)
  Re: an important lesson (Tom)
  maple syrup porter (Brian Kloss)
  Irish Moss, ("David R. Burley")
  SUMMARY: boil vigor ("Robert DeNeefe")
  FW: read this ("Michael W. Jones")
  sanitation (John_E_Schnupp)
  pH quandary ("Frederick L. Pauly")
  CO2 manifolds, mash vs. steep ("Raymond Estrella")
  Re: Dave Draper? (Jeff Renner)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 16:40:00 -0800
From: "Mike Szwaya" <mike.szwaya at coler-colantonio.com>
Subject: RIMS heating chamber debate




Many, many thanks to those who have responded, both privately and on the 
HBD, on the design question of the RIMS heating chamber.  It seemed to have 
elicited a number of constructive responses covering some design 'flaws' and 
observations I had on the chamber failure.  They seem to be generally based 
on a few topics.

Design
I think with the half dozen or so responses I've seen, there's more than 
enough information and ingenuity out there to make an effective and safe 
(Mr. Hollenbeck) chamber without breaking your bank or requiring an EE 
degree.  Obviously, PVC was not the material of choice.  Responses ranged 
from a 'Suck it up (I'm paraphrasing) and go out and buy one' to a pretty 
simple copper tube with a couple of fittings soldered on.  If anyone is 
interested, I can post or send them a summary of what I've received.

'That fuzz'
It appears that pumping a sugar-rich solution over a heating element will 
almost always result in some carmelization and residual material on the 
element.  I would believe that the amount of residue would be a function of 
wort density, pump rate, and temperature of the heating element.  The few 
times I used the pump/element system, I ended up cleaning it following 
mashing by using a baking soda/lye solution I got from a local brewpub they 
use for Clean-in-place applications.  I forget the name but I can find out. 
 Anyway, looking back, it obviously didn't work all that well!
Although I monitored the system pretty scrupulously during the mash process 
and didn't initially believe that I left the element on without the pump, I 
deduced that the black carbonization was because of just that reason. 
 However, many other people with this system seem to get the same result 
during normal operations.  I think in the system wiring, it might be a good 
idea to wire the heating element switch through the pump switch such that if 
the pump is turned off then the heating element won't be left on by mistake. 
 However, this is no substitute for cleaning it after each use to avoid this 
problem.

Safety (or, Don't use plastic, dumb-ass!)
As far as using PVC (with a nominal safety temperature rating of 140F, 
something I neglected to look up) or even CPVC (at 210F), I completely give 
myself an 'F' for that material selection, especially encasing a heating 
element.  Between having a difficult time locating and constructing it with 
ideal components (i.e. copper, SS, or even Pyrex glass) and a near 
child-like impatience to get the damn thing up and running, I 'settled' on 
PVC.  I consider myself lucky to have only walked away from that experience 
with losing a pint or so of last runnings from a mash instead of my health. 
 After spending the money on a pump, heating element, all the wiring, etc. 
 I should have waited until I found the right stuff, or more importantly, 
used this forum (which is what I believe it is meant for).  In retrospect, 
it's kind of like spending the money on Maris Otter malt and then using dry 
yeast...a dumb idea.   With the exception of the PVC, the remainder of the 
system is very safe.  Criticism noted.

Thanks again for everyone's help.

Mike Szwaya
mike.szwaya at coler-colantonio.com


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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 15:57:00 -0600
From: "KYLE.M.DRUEY.G0CT" <KYLE.M.DRUEY.G0CT at statefarm.com>
Subject: SLOWING AH


          SENT BY DRUEY KYLE M               12T G0CT  EMC2           1491
Date: Friday, 28 February 1997 1:54pm PT
To: EXTERNAL.EMAIL
From: Kyle.M.DRUEY
Subject: Slowing AHA Sales Growth


Jim Cave mentions this recently concerning the AHA:

>are too many other fine educational options out there now-a-days.  So the
>issue isn't why/how the AHA was set up in the first place, it's what is it
>doing lately?  Personally, I think it's an easy step for the AHA to take,

I think Jim brings up an excellent point here.  The homebrew market is much
more competitive now than it was five years ago.  Back then the AHA was almost
the only show around.  The lack of competition brought with it much success
to the AHA, to the point where they figured out they could be
nonresponsive to their customers (us) and get away with it.  The fruit of
their monopolistic position in the homebrew market has brought about an
arrogance (some have discovered that Charlie P does not respond to email)
that we as consumers do not have to endure.  My wife recently wrote
a complaint letter to Walmart addressed to the CEO, and he responded
with a very cordial personal letter.  Although the AHA is not a stock company,
it should demonstrate the same level of customer concern as Walmart did.

If the supposition is true that the AHA is lead by the almighty dollar, then
lets start speaking to them in terms they understand.  As consumers, lets
begin to purchase products from their competitors.  I believe there are better
homebrew mags out there than Zymurgy, and many of the products offered by the
AHA can be purchased elsewhere.  I think the AHA has just started to realize
that competition is impacting their sales (i.e. membership) growth rate.  I
just skimmed through the recent issue of Zymurgy and noticed that the letter
from the editor mentions this.  But what is their response???  They ask us
to solicit our friends to join the AHA to help them boost their gross sales.
Get real AHA, you must take us for fools!  No need to further bash the AHA in
this forum, we can get their attention by exercising our options in the market
place.  Then I am sure Charlie P will start responding to his email.  As
members, lets make the AHA what we want it to be (HBD, BJCP, etc.)  Tell a
friend...

Kyle Druey
brewing in Bakersfield, CA     "its a cool heat"

PS - I am currently a member of the AHA only because my brother gave me the
magazine subscription as a Christmas present.  I am going to start subscribing
to Brewing Techniques mag soon.  No offense to many of the very knowledgeable
authors who contribute articles to Zymurgy (Spencer Thomas, Ray Daniels, et
al).


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 17:10:25 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: clarification, AHA/AOB

I received some email from the AHA/AOB regarding a 
recent post of mine.  Allow me to clarify some points.

I wrote:

<RE: AOB/AHA.  Damn!  Twice I wrote to Charlie, once many, many years ago
<to ask some of the same questions being covered here so aptly by Louis
<et al.  Now I find out that not only do they ignore comments/constructive
<criticism, they dont even read em!!!  Sheesh, talk about non responsive
<folks. 

Cathy E. from the AOB wrote me to ask specifically what I was talking
about, and thought I was referring to her personally.  I was not and
did not mean to imply any derogative comments to her.  This was
written in response to the recent posting by Charlie claiming he
does not read the comments/constructive criticism written by 
homebrewers such as myself.  I should have directed all comments
directly to the commander in chief of the AOB/AHA, which I erroneously
thought I had done.  Need to avoid the use of the plural tense here,
although Karen B. never wanted to hear it either.

I also wrote:

<Im still trying to figure out why the AHA refused to ship the
<promised bottles for the AHA conference beer I brewed em until the night
<before my one month beer trek across Europe!  I cant tell you how close
<they came to getting the entire 2 BBLs in kegs... ;-)

I got an email from Caroline of the AHA who took great exception 
with this statement.  In fairness to Caroline and the AHA they 
assured me that it was not their "intent" to have this potential
disaster occur and implicated the glass vendor as to the cause of
the problems.  Im sure it was not their intent and I should have
used other words to describe my severe consternation over the issue.
For the record, the exact same thing happened to another brewer
in 1996.

I apologize to Cathy and Coroline, I did not intentionally mean
to pick on them personally but merely was reporting on my experience. 

BTW, I have not been a member of said organization for at least 4
years now, it seems to be in vogue these days to publically state
ones membership status.  ;-)

Jim Busch

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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 17:00:42 -0800
From: "Costello, Jim" <jimc at littongcs.com>
Subject: Copper and HSA?

John W. Reese writes (among other things) in HBD#2361:
<snip>
>After some reading and correspondance with Andrew Walsh, who
>has written about copper in brewing for HBD in the past, I
>conclude that free oxygen/HSA is NOT a reason to avoid
>copper in brewing IF copper surfaces are cleaned with 
>a light household acid like distilled vinegar immediately before
>brewing, then rinsed with de-oxygenated, de-chlorinated water
>(in other words, your brewing water, which you boil before
>mashing and sparging).  This will take off the tarnish on the
>copper, which probably is the source of oxygen ions in
>hot wort.<snip>

This makes me wonder about all that copper tubing in my immersion
chiller that I'm putting into my hot wort (or running hot wort through a
copper tubed CF chiller for that matter).  AM I runnung a risk of HSA by
doing this? I thought that copper was the premier metal for brewing.
Should I be cleaning my chiller with vinegar before each use?
Cheers,   Jim C.

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:31:29 -0600
From: AJUNDE at monsanto.com
Subject: When to add malto-dextrine

     Going to try using some malto-dextrine for the first time in a batch
     tomorow!  When do I add this?  Is there a way to tell how much to add?

     TNCJOHB talks about it, but never tells you how to use it!

     thanks a lot!

|                 Allen Underdown - ajunde at monsanto.com                     |
|       ITSS WAN Group - Monsanto World Headquarters - St. Louis, MO        |
| Amateur Radio Operator, computer geek, homebrewer and outdoor enthusiast! |
|                      Try My BBS at 314.939.9445!                          |


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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 23:12:50 -0800
From: JCHenning <huskers at cco.net>
Subject: Ray Daniels _Designing_Great_Beer_

Hello Friends-

There has been a little discussion about Ray Daniels and his book 
(Nathan Kanous and Jethro).  There is a nice web page about
_Designing_Great_Beer_ at http://www.mcs.net/~rdan/DGBindex.html

Ray has a page devoted just to corrections.  Kinda cool I thought. 
Looking at his list, maybe saying lambics contain a large portion of 
malted wheat instead of unmalted wheat isn't a big deal but misstating 
a formula for pH could throw off a brewers calculations on building 
brewing water. I'm glad to see authors are concerned about errors 
and getting the readers up to speed.

Jethro had it half right about Ray being in Seattle. He'll be at 
the Evergreen Brew Shop on March 23 (I think). It isn't a siminar on 
the book like in KC, it's going to be an hour on the history of porter
and a book signing. Ray doesn't quite follow the same thought 
as Wheeler on the earlier years of porter. Daniels beleives that porter 
could have been a mixure of differant kinds of beers (mild beer, pale 
ale, brown ale, and stale beers) and mixed at the brewery.  Wheeler 
seems to think porter was only made from brown ale, fresh mixed with 
stale. And these two where custom mixed at the pub. "Four fingers of 
Premium topped off bartender". Should be interesting. Look for Darryl 
Richman, author of _Bock_.

I guess there are other hb events that week. Can someone in the Seattle
area let me know more. I heard that Charlie Papazian was going to be 
throwing AHA membership money around town to the dimay of the hand 
picked board of directors.

Cheers,
Jason Henning
Big Red Alchemy and Brewing
huskers at cco.net (spamfree e-address)

"The More Al Knows About Beer, The More Rob Realizes George Needs To 
Know More About Beer!"


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Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 06:53:56 -0600
From: Jim & Patti Hust <jameshu at lincnet.com>
Subject: Using yeast cake

I have "harvested" my yeast from the secondary using the washing process 
for some time and have never experienced any adverse effects.  No 
contaminations, no infections, no mutations.  It is a little bit of a 
pain to do, however.  I have a batch of Pale Ale in the primary now and 
am ready to brew again, so am thinking of using the direct method of 
getting the cooled wort directly onto the yeast cake in the fermenter.  
A couple of questions:  How long can I keep the yeast cake in the bottom 
of my fermenter good?  Do I have to seal off the fermenter while I am 
preparing my next batch?  Do you use the entire cake, or try to separate 
 some off the hops from the trub?
Thanx for any help

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Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 10:01:27 -0500
From: saunderm at vt.edu (J. Matthew Saunders)
Subject: Re: AHA thread

Hi folks,

I just wanted to clear up a couple of points about "Not-For-Profits" and
the process of becoming one, and they way boards are generally picked in
them.  This is in no way an affirmation or condemnation of the AHA or any
one else.

Chas Peterson wrote:

>And in all liklihood, the hand pick board was at one time I'm
>sure a necessity.  Most young organizations start with the founder(s) vision,
>and to succeed, the founder usually needs to control the whole thing or the
>organization never gets focused enough to get off the ground.

Almost all "Not-For-Profits" hand pick boards.  This allows the
organization the latitude to pick people that have contacts, skills, and
resources that a specific to the needs of the organization.

>If they do want to
>keep this role (which as some have pointed out they may already losing grasp
>of), then clearly they may want to incorporate, establish a membership elected
>BOD, etc.

I believe the AHA is a registered Not-For-Profit, as such, they HAD to have
incorporated before applying for Not-For-Profit status.  As such, they also
had to inform the "power's that be" in the state they incorporated the
names of the board members.  Its all a matter of public record if you want
to find these names.

To become Not-For-Profit works like this:

1)  Incorporate in the State you want the org to reside.

2)  Wait three years to prove you can and will exist

OR provide a three year budget to the IRS when you apply for Not-For-Profit.

3)  Apply for Not-For-Profit status from the Federal Government.  The most
common Not-For-Profit is covered under 501 (C) 3 in the tax code.  There
are others of course, but 501 (C) 3 covers educational entities (everything
from schools, to theatres).

4)  Apply for tax exemptions from Federal, state, and local governments as
appropriate.

Cheers!
Matthew.



    =======================================================================

             "Madness takes its toll.  Please have exact change."

http://fbox.vt.edu:10021/S/saunderm/index.html/page_1.html  (Home Page)
http://dogstar.bevd.blacksburg.va.us/virtual/virtual.html   (Thesis Page)

                             J. Matthew Saunders
                                saunderm at vt.edu
    ======================================================================= 



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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 21:04:05 -0600
From: Rick Olivo <ahspress at win.bright.net>
Subject: BREW MUTTS

At the risk of starting a whole new flame war on brew dogs, I would
propose the ideal beer dog is the Dachshund. I select this breed based
on my experiences with a doxie named "Dinky Doodle Dawg." Now Dinky is
the only dog I have ever seen that should have signed up for AA. To put
it mildly, Dinky was a lush. No beer was safe on coffee table or floor.
Dinky could drain a mug in two minutes flat. In spite of his diminuitve
stature, he had astounding capacity. Once at a party, we calculated he
drank over a gallon and a half of beer over the course of the evening.
He looked like an overstuffed bratwurst at the end of the night, and had
more difficulty navigating than his owner. Dinky had excellent taste in
beer, prefering Dixie and Pearl to Old Milwaukee and Schlitz. He would
not touch Budweiser under any condition (Good dog!!!). Dinky also had a
fondness for scotch whiskey although he would ignore almost any mixed
drink. But it was as a beer dog that he excelled. With his long snout,
he was ideally built for lapping beer out of a tall glass. He'd rear up
on hind legs to guzzle beer left on the coffee tables. Cans or bottles
were no challange. He'd just knock them to the floor and lap it up,
leaving no mess at all. When no more would come out, he'd nudge the
bottle or can with his nose to get more of the precious fluid out. When
in his cups, Dinky would, if encouraged sing along with the group, being
especially fond of sad songs of broken romance by Freddie Fender. Dinky
was a hell of a pooch, companion and drinking buddy. I miss him to this
day. It's not often you can get a household pet who is loyal, obedient,
and ready for a party any time of the day or night. 

Strange Brewer (aka Rick Olivo)
ashpress at win.bright.net
Vitae sine cervesae mamulatas!!! (Life without beer sucks!!!)
(With apologies to Cicero)

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Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 10:48:40 -0500 (EST)
From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Subject: Irish Moss

Mark Arneson asks about using Irish Moss:

"Does anybody have any good tips on how to use it?
I bought some a couple of years ago and, after smelling it, decided not
to put into my wort."

The typical direction is to use 1 to 2 teaspoons in a 5 gallon batch ten to
fifteen minutes before the end of the boil.  Now, there are many variations
on that theme, including more or less IM, hydrating the stuff in water before
using, not hydrating it but tossing it in at the start of the boil, etc.
 I've personally had much better results with powdered versus flakes, but
others argue the opposite or that there's no difference.

Yes, it smells foul (no, fish, actually), and you'll smell the deep blue sea
for a few minutes after adding to to the wort, but this smell will go away by
the time you chill & rack and certainly by the time fermentation is underway.
 I've never had any of my brews come out tasting or smelling like beer
chowder.

A while back we (here on the HBD) had a discussion about the merits of IM,
again with more opinions than conclusions, so I encourage you to scan the
archives for further tidbits.  My experience has been very distinct -- forget
the IM, have a hazy wort, use the IM, have a crystal-clear wort.  This may
well be due to other factors in combination with the IM, though.

And mark "WHAT shift key?" bayer writes in the same HBD:

"how much irish moss?  i have used anywhere from 1/4 tsp. to 1.5 tsp. per 
5 gallon batch, and it seems that greater amounts of irish moss produce 
significantly more material in the bottom of the kettle at the end of the 
boil.  interestingly, lately i've been using 1/4 tsp. per 5 gallon batch,
and i see less break, but am not suffering from any kind of haze or flavor
problems.  it seems like i get equally good beer and less "stuff" in the 
bottom of the kettle by using less irish moss.  so i wonder if all that extra
stuff was mostly irish moss."

A good point; I wonder if anyone has really done a study of how *little* IM
one can get away with (well, shoot, I guess mark has, huh?).  It's easy to
look into the kettle and squeal, "Oooh!! Just look at all that break!!" when
in fact it just might be hydrated IM and *not* trub after all.  A little just
might go a long way.

*****

Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
KennyEddy at aol.com
http://members.aol.com

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Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 11:18:17 -0400
From: manning at one.net (M.P. Manning)
Subject: Hop alpha decay over time

Al Korzonas writes:

 ...what is the point of oxygen-barrier packaging
if there is *already* oxygen in the package to spoil the hops?

Exposure to a small, but finite volume of oxygen, as in a barrier bag, is
much different from exposure to an infinite volume of oxygen, as when hops
are stored in PE.  Evacuating the bag before sealing further reduces the
mass of oxygen to which the hops are exposed.  Purging is most useful if
your container is an O2 barier, and you can't evacuate it.

Martin Manning
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA



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Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 11:48:17 -0500 (EST)
From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Subject: Soapy EKG's and High-Temperature Ferments

Back in #2356 George De Piro raised a couple of points:
     
    "For what its worth, I sometimes perceive Kent Goldings as being a bit 
     soapy, especially when used for finishing or dry hopping.  Anybody 
     else out there ever sense this?"

I've used fresh EKGs before for dry hopping with excellent results.  But I
had two experiences this past summer with EKGs which led me to be more
careful with my stock turnover.  First, a friend made a lovely pale ale, then
dry hopped with an EKG plug or two.  The resulting flavor/aroma could've been
taken for "soapy" I suppose but I liken it more to "earthy", like having
tossed a handful of potting soil into the beer.  Almost undrinkable.

In an unrelated incident a few weeks later, I decided to dryhop a brew of
mine with the last of a package of EKG plugs.  I smelled them first; they
didn't small as fresh as they once did but didn't seem to be "old", so I
tossed 'em in.  What I got was more or less the same character that my
friend's beer had, only not nearly as pronounced.  A couple of weeks and a
few pressurize/purge cycles later, the character was much mitigated, though
so was any positive aroma contribution.

My conclusion is that EKGs can pick up objectionable character with age
(really, only a couple (OK maybe four) months in a jar in the freezer under
CO2), moreso than I've experienced with other hops.

   "Some yeasts will be a bit more forgiving of high temperatures, but 87F 
     is really up there!  It doesn't have to be that warm for the beer to 
     turn soapy tasting."

With the warmer weather just around the corner (OK, so living in Texas warps
my view of "winter"), and already in full-force for those below the Equator,
many homebrews of questionable quality will no doubt be produced by those who
haven't figured out that a summertime room-temp fermentation will usually
produce less-than-optimum results.  I've seen reference to Cooper's Sparkling
Ale yeast as being a good performer even at elevated temperatures (the latest
BYO suggests 75F to 89F!!).  Perhaps this would be a good yeast to keep on
hand for those brewers who haven't been able to implement effective
fermentation control techniques.  Could be a decent "summer stock ale" yeast
to help extend the brewing season for these folks.  The question is, how to
obtain and use this yeast.

Culturing the yeast from a bottle of CSA onto a slant or dish is one answer,
but for many people, this isn't Relaxing (though it's not as hard as it might
sound!).  It could be done on a batch-to-batch basis though by pitching the
sludge at the bottom of a bottle of CSA into a small amount of fresh wort
(maybe 1/2 cup or so), allowing that to ferment, then stepping up to 16
ounces, and further as desired, making a starter.  Swab or flame the bottle
opener, and also the open bottle mouth after removing the cap, pour all the
beer except for the last 1/4" of sludge into a glass (for drinking), and dump
the rest into a sanitized and airlocked beer bottle with 1/2 cup (125 ml) or
so of aerated (vigorously shaken) wort.  Add more wort once fermentation is
in its full glory, doubling the wort each time until the desired starter
volume is achieved.  In a 16-ounce bottle, you can double twice from the
original 1/2 cup, first adding another 1/2 cup, then one cup.

This shouldn't take much longer than popping a Wyeast package and stepping
up, and the yeast so obtained should help produce better beer at higher
temperatures.

(Shameless plug department)  Visit my web page for plans for a Fermentation
Chiller that you can make, to control fermentation temperature.  Now's the
time to get started building it!!

*****

Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
KennyEddy at aol.com
http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy

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Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 11:25:07 -0600 (CST)
From: korz at xnet.com
Subject: 1720's Porter replica

Just off the top of my head, I wrote:

>60% Old Peculier or McEwan's Scotch Ale
>10% Cantillon or Boon Gueuze/Geuze
>30% Rodenbach Grand Cru

in an effort to replicate a 1720's-style Porter.  After giving this
a little more thought, I feel that both of the dark strong beers I
suggested were bad choices: OP is only 5.6%ABV (according to Protz)
and McEwan's Scotch is far too sweet.  Porters, having been aged
for up to a year and having both lactic bacteria and Brettanomyces 
yeasts, are going to be quite dry. What we need is a 1.080 OG, dryish
brown beer that gets its colour and flavour from high-kilned malts
(like Munich) rather than black malts (like Black patent, which had
not even been invented (the barrel roaster having been invented in 1817)).

Another thing that's missing is the smoky character.  I've read (somewhere,
but it can also be pieced-together from "Old British Beers and How to Make 
Them" by Dr. John Harrison and the Durden Park Beer Circle and Noonan's
"Scotch Ale") that the brown malt used to make Porters was dried under
hardwood fires, which gave it some smoky character.

Perhaps the best thing to do would be to brew a 1.080 OG beer made
from 50% Munich malt, and 50% Weyermann Rauchmalz.  1.080 because the
OG of Porters was in the 1.060's to 1.070's, but we will be diluting
it with weaker beers (the Rodenbach Grand Cru being a 1.054 beer and
the Cantillon about 1.046).  Foster says the Porter would have been
very highly hopped (four ounces of hops per five gallons).

As for duplicating this purely homebrewed, shoot for 1.065 OG... the
hard part is getting a Brett yeast that will give you that nice
"horsey" character.  Also, pitch some Pediococcus and don't worry 
bout getting it too sour (if my pLambics are any indication, it will
take 6 months just to *begin* to get sour).  Worst case you can always
brew some young beer and blend, right ;^)?

So: brown, oaky, smoky, horsey, sour, and very bitter.  Get to it!

Comments... no, I mean constructive ones?

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com


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Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 12:29:05 -0500
From: Tom <brewman at mail.wwnet.com>
Subject: Re: an important lesson

In #2362, Robert DeNeefe wrote:

>Last evening I had the opportunity to learn a very important lesson in
>homebrewing.  It doesn't concern aeration, flocculation, or even the
>biggie, sanitation.  It is simply this:

>Never, ever, walk around in socks on a slightly wet tile floor while
>carrying a glass carboy.

>If you can't imagine what would happen, picture the homebrewer's feet
>quickly flying out from under him, the homebrewer and the carboy
>(thankfully!) separating in mid-air, and both ending up hitting the floor
>HARD.  The carboy is now in a million pieces, and I, faring slightly
>better than my deceased glass friend, am still intact, albeit slightly
>bruised.  I somehow managed to escape with no cuts from the broken carboy.
> I did manage to get a nasty scrape on my leg from the edge of the
>dishwasher, bruise the heck out of my elbow, and hit my finger on
>something hard enough to make it swell to the point of being almost
>unusable.  After the shock wore off and the pain from the abovementioned
>injuries died down, I stared at the glass shrapnel and thought just how
>lucky I really was.  This could have been a serious disaster.  From here
>on out, I will carry my carboys with much more respect and care, as I
>wouldn't want to try my luck in a repeat incident.

This sums up the importance of devising some sort of carrying system for
these potential bottle bombs.  I believe most of us are mechanically
inclined to be able to build a cradle or wheeled cart to move these carboys.
It also points up the need to try to brew and ferment all on one level, thus
removing the risk of dropping, stumbling, tipping, etc..  I had a similar,
although not as drastic, incident where the carboy slipped, luckily on
carpeting.  Only a little brew sloshed out and the glass remains intact.  I
now brew and ferment on one level and built a cart to move things around.
Much peace of mind!  Just do it!
**************************************************************************
			        Tom Williams		
   			     <brewman at wwnet.com>	

  "...and there was this girl there who had once been an ex-ballet dancer 
  who took off all her cloths and danced around in the rain ...round the 
  banana tree ... round and around ... and I .. followed suit..."
						-Ramblin' Jack Elliot
**************************************************************************


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Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 15:04:02 -0500
From: Brian Kloss <klossb at rockvax.rockefeller.edu>
Subject: maple syrup porter


  A friend recently told me that he had tried the Saranac Maple Porter and
had enjoyed it very much.  He was hoping to try to make a similar beer.
Since he is the one responsible for getting me started as a homebrewer (we
both have been brewing for about three years now) I thought the least I
could do was post a request for any information regarding the use of maple
syrup in beer.

  Specifically, how much syrup should be used?  And when should it be
added?  He was considering using maple syrup for priming at bottling time
but was unsure whether this would provide much flavor.  And there still is
the question of how much to use in order to get proper carbonation.

  If anyone out there has used maple syrup in their beer, please let me
know what you did and what the outcome was, especially if the maple syrup
was used for priming.

  Private e-mail is fine (and probably faster, given the backlog of posts).
I can post a summary of the responses in a week or two.  TIA for all your
help.

						Brian



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Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 17:33:16 -0500
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Irish Moss,

Brewsters:

Mark Arneson was suspicious of the smell of his Irish Moss and opted for
not using it since he didn't understand its purpose or how to use it.

Mark,

Irish Moss comes from seaweed (which may explain its mild smell) and its
main function is to coagulate protein so your hot break occurs completely
and settles quickly. It is also called "copper finings"since the kettle in
which the wort was boiled was made from copper in the old direct heat days.
 Disperse it in a little cold water and add it to your boiling wort with
stirring  ten minutes before the end of the boil.

Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Voice e-mail OK

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Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:56:30 -0600
From: "Robert DeNeefe" <rdeneefe at compassnet.com>
Subject: SUMMARY: boil vigor

A few HBD's ago I posted a question about my seemingly high evaporation
rate during the boil.  I got letters from many others who experience the
same thing.  Some people tone the boil down to just rolling to lessen the
rate of loss, some add water during the boil to make up for what the
atmosphere steals, and others just deal with the fact that they're going to
lose a lot of water and either add water after the boil or sparge longer to
collect more wort.  There seems to be no consensus on when "enough is
enough" in the boil, as some people run their cookers wide open and others
try to fine tune to barely boiling.  One person thought that he *might*
have remembered George Fix suggesting that a 10% loss per hour was optimal
for flavor, but he wasn't sure if his memory was correct, and he could
never achieve such low rates and keep a moving boil going.  Maybe there is
no "best" boiling rate at all.  Maybe it just depends on your method for
dealing with the evaporation, which will happen at some rate under all
circumstances.

 Robert


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Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 18:21:26 -0600
From: "Michael W. Jones" <keni.mo at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: FW: read this



- ----------
From: 	Kathy Scieszka[SMTP:scieszka at pilot.msu.edu]
Sent: 	Tuesday, February 11, 1997 3:09 PM
To: 	'Aunt Teresa and Uncle JK'; 'Dad'; 'Dan Baker'; 'Dawn'; 'Erin'; 
'Janice'; 'Jimmy'; 'Joel'; 'Kara Kokotas'; 'Kristi'; 'Laura'; 'Laura 
Morrone'; 'Marlene and Tom'; 'Mike, Christy, and Kennedy'; 'Rob'; 'Steve'; 
'Kristin'
Cc: 	'ACS at AOL.COM'
Subject: 	read this


> >>
> >>>  To save you the trouble of scrolling through this whole thing, I 
will
> >>>  give you a brief explanation of what is going on.  There is a seven
> >>>  year-old girl who is dying of cancer.  For every person you forward
> >this
> >>>  to, the American Cancer Society will be given 3 cents towards cancer
> >>>  research from corporate sponsors.  Please include ACS  at  aol.com on 
your
> >>>  forward list so that they can see how many people are forwarded the
> >>>  message.  It doesn't take long and it can be your good deed for the
> >day. >>  Scroll down for more information!
> >>>
> >>>Thanks!!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>MAKE A DIFFERENCE
> >>>>>
> >>>>> LITTLE JESSICA MYDEK IS SEVEN YEARS OLD AND IS SUFFERING FROM
> >>>>>AN ACUTE AND VERY RARE CASE  OF CEREBRAL CARCINOMA.  THIS CONDITION
> >CAUSES >>>>SEVERE MALIGNANT BRAIN  TUMORS AND IS A TERMINAL ILLNESS. 
 THE
> >DOCTORS
> >>HAVE
> >>>>     >GIVEN HER  SIX MONTHS TO LIVE.   AS PART OF HER DYING WISH, SHE
> >>>>     WANTED TO >START A CHAIN LETTER TO INFORM PEOPLE OF THIS 
CONDITION
> >>>>AND TO SEND PEOPLE >THE MESSAGE TO LIVE LIFE TO THE FULLEST AND ENJOY
> >EVERY >>>MOMENT, A CHANCE >THAT  SHE WILL NEVER HAVE.  FURTHERMORE, THE
> >AMERICAN
> >>CANCER
> >>>>SOCIETY AND >SEVERAL CORPORATE
> >>>>SPONSORS HAVE AGREED TO DONATE THREE CENTS  TOWARD >CONTINUING CANCER
> >>>RESEARCH
> >>>>FOR EVERY NEW PERSON THAT GETS FORWARDED THIS >MESSAGE.  PLEASE GIVE
> >>>JESSICA AND
> >>>>ALL CANCER VICTIMS A CHANCE.  IF THERE >ARE ANY QUESTIONS,
> >>>>SEND THEM TO THE AMERICAN CANCER SOCIETY  AT ACS at AOL.COM
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >Received: from axp1.wku.edu by INETGW.WKU.EDU (SMTPLINK V2.11 PreRelease 
4)
> >    ; Mon, 03 Feb 97 11:33:54 CST
> >Return-Path: <ssmall at kde.state.ky.us>
> >Received: from kdemailn2.kde.state.ky.us by axp1.wku.edu (MX V4.3 Alpha)
> >with
> >          SMTP; Mon, 03 Feb 1997 11:33:53 EST
> >Received: by kdemailn2.kde.state.ky.us with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange 
Server
> >          Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id
> >          <01BC11CE.A3810C90 at kdemailn2.kde.state.ky.us>; Mon, 3 Feb 1997
> >          12:34:46 -0500
> >Message-ID:
> 
><c=US%a=_%p=KETS%l=KDEMAILN2-970203173443Z-34485 at kdemailn2.kde.state.ky  
 .us>
> >From: "Small, Steve -   Sec. Voc. Ed." <ssmall at kde.state.ky.us>
> >To: "'BulldogEnt at aol.com'" <BulldogEnt at aol.com>, "'cclark at kmg.com'"
> ><cclark at kmg.com>, 'Donald Smith' <Donald.Smith at wku.edu>,
> >"'ACS at aol.com'" <ACS at aol.com>
> >Subject: FW: PLEASE READ THIS- Do not just delete it! (fwd)
> >Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:34:43 -0500
> >X-Mailer:  Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version
> >4.0.994.63
> >MIME-Version: 1.0
> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >
>
>
>







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Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 19:31:07 -0700
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: sanitation





Michael asks,
     A quick question for the masses.  I am giving up the use of bleach in
my brewery (I know, already) and would like to know a little about B-Brite
or simaliar products from someone who has used it.  I understand it is not
a sanitizer.  I use Iodophor for this.  Is it safe to use on vinyl tubing?
How about silicone tubing?  The inards of my pump?  Do you use it with hot
water or cold?  How long?

Thats all folks.  TIA

Michael T. Bell
Boomerdog Brewing
Arlington, TX

I have also seen other posts recently concerning cleaners and sanitizers
A while back I cam across some really great information and would like to
pass it on.  There is a great
article in the Brewery Library.  It is under the topic of Processes,
sanitation.  The article is called
Brewery cleaning and sanitizing by Jim Liddil and John Palmer.  You can
also find the same article at the
following address:  www.primenet.com/~johnj/cleaning.html.

I have found it to be quite useful and informative

brewing in the Green Mountain State,
John Schnupp, N3CNL
Colchester, VT
john_e_schnupp at amat.com



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Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 09:17:25 -0500
From: "Frederick L. Pauly" <flp2m at avery.med.virginia.edu>
Subject: pH quandary

Just brewed a 10 gal all grain Ale. I added 6 tsp of gypsum to 15
gal of water, doughed in with 5 gal. pH 5.2. Topped off the water
tank to 15 gal again, added 3 tsp gypsum. At the end of the
sparge the pH was 4.6! 
I thought if anything it should have gone up during the sparge.
( checked pH with 2 different digital pocket meters)
Any ideas as to what was going on.
( And my tap water is very soft )

Thanks 
Rick Pauly
Nuc Med Tech
Charlottesville, VA

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Date: Sun, 2 Mar 97 13:58:52 UT
From: "Raymond Estrella" <ray-estrella at msn.com>
Subject: CO2 manifolds, mash vs. steep

Hello all, Scott Rohlf asks, 
>I would like to know the best way for splitting the CO2 from 
>my regulator to service both kegs.  I actually would like 3 outputs.  
>(2 kegs and CPBF).  I have seen plastic or brass 'Y' s for the gas 
>line.  Is there another option? 
Yes there is, I have a three way manifold that I purchased from Superior
Products. They make a few different styles, and their catalog has a lot of 
useful stuff for homebrewers. Call 612-636-1110
 Patrick says,
>Pardon me if this is a silly question, but what's the difference between
>mashing and steeping? I thought mashing *was* steeping, i.e. soaking 
>the crushed grains in water at a specific temp. for a specific time.
  I'll try to keep this simple. When steeping you are placing a small amount 
of grain in a large amount of water for a short duration, not exactly 
conducive to enzyme activity. It is used to mainly for color and flavor 
contributions in your wort. Your malt extract is the source of your 
fermentables. When mashing grain you have a much closer water to 
grain ratio, and are controlling the time it sits at various temperatures. 
This lets enzymes in the mash convert starches in the grain to fermentable 
sugars. After mashing you need to drain, and sparge (rinse) the grain to get 
all of the sugars out. Doing this will eliminate the need to use extract, and 
will give you much more control over your finished product.

Ray Estrella   Cottage Grove   MN
ray-estrella at msn.com

    *******Never relax, constantly worry, have a better homebrew.*******



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Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 09:42:15 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Dave Draper?

In Homebrew Digest #2363 (March 02, 1997), RANDY ERICKSON <RANDYE at mid.org>
asked:
>Finally, has anyone heard from Dave (I'm not from here, I just live here)
>Draper?  His website in Australia seems to be gone, and see he hasn't
>posted in well over a year.

Below is from a note I received from Dave on January 30.  Even though it is
a private email, I think that it contains nothing personal or private, so,
since he is out of communication, I can post it without his approval.  His
fans want to know!  My guess is that we will not be hearing a lot from him
for a while, what with his new job.

Jeff

>From Dave Draper, 1/30/97:

Yes, my quest for  permanent
employment has finally succeeded!  I landed a research position at
the U of Texas in Dallas, and will start there about 10 March.  Most
of my gear from here is already packed up and in a shipping warehouse
here in Sydney awaiting air freight transport; I am moved out of my
apartment and am staying for my last couple of weeks at my
colleague's home (they have a guest room).  I depart Sydney on 15
Feb, and will be on the west coast for  about 2 weeks doing lots of
stuff including driving to Eugene to get all the gear I have had in
storage there for the past 5 years, then driving to Texas.  Needless
to say I have been sorta busy!  But all is going very very well, much
better than I had any reason to expect just a few short months ago.

So by mid-March or so I should be on line once more and back on the
airwaves.  I am also *really* looking forward to getting going on the
brewfront too, at last I will have access to all those wonderful
grains and hops I have been reading about online for years!

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu



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