---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@ brew.oeonline.com
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Just Hops packaging ... (Steve Alexander)
  RE: glatt mill rollers ("Sornborger, Nathan")
  re: Decocting Pale Ale Malt (Charles Burns)
  Summary of decoction at mashout (Tim Martin)
  Decoction Troubles ("C&S Peterson")
  Brew Tunes (Rick Olivo)
  Subscription (CGoldone)
  [Fwd: london pubs] (kathy)
  Paint Stirrers? ("Chris A. Smith")
  Help with Rochefort #8 ("Frederick L. Pauly")
  Re: Pubs in UK (Kent Michaelsen)
  6th. ann. NY City Homebrew Competition (Ken)
  Re: Live Beer (Andrew E Howard)
  Re: Beer for Wedding (Cuchulain Libby)
  Throttling back the 'ole pump (AllDey)
  Re: HBD Dist List Use (Randy Erickson)
  toxic beers and Papazian's books... (Kristin Miller/Carl Helrich)
  More Questions on Hops Rhizomes ("Chris Strickland")
  Re: Live Beer (Kent Michaelsen)
  RE: pedios (homo/hetero) (Joe Rolfe)
  Remove (K F Chow)
  Mash efficiency (Jim & Patti Hust)
  split/decoction (Mark E. Lubben)
  Heat Exchangers ("Lorena Barquin Sanchez")
  Foam color (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Torbj=F8rn_Bull-Njaa?=)
  Quest:How to keep keg carbinated? ("Frederick L. Pauly")
  Making BIG Starters (nkanous)
  Stuck fermentation update (Alex Santic)


NOTE NEW HOMEBREW ADDRESS:  brew.oeonline.com 

Send articles for __publication_only__ to homebrew at brew.oeonline.com
  (Articles are published in the order they are received.)
Send UNSUBSCRIBE and all other requests, ie, address change, etc.,
  to homebrew-request@ brew.oeonline.com BUT PLEASE NOTE that if
  you subscribed via the BITNET listserver (BEER-L at UA1VM.UA.EDU),
  you must unsubscribe by sending a one line e-mail to listserv at ua1vm.ua.edu 
  that says: UNSUB BEER-L

Thanks to Pete Soper, Rob Gardner and all others for making the Homebrew
  Digest what it is. Visit the HBD Hall of Fame at:
			http://brew.oeonline.com/

If your account is being deleted, please be courteous and unsubscribe first.
Please don't send requests for back issues - you will be silently ignored.

For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to lutzen at alpha.rollanet.org

ARCHIVES:
  An archive of previous issues of this digest, as well as other beer
  related information can be accessed via anonymous ftp from:
	
	brew.oeonline.com	/pub/hbd	
	ftp.stanford.edu	/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer

  AFS users can find it under

	 /afs/ir.stanford.edu/ftp/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer

  If you do not have ftp capability you may access the files via e-mail 
  using the ftpmail service at gatekeeper.dec.com.  For information about 
  this service, send an e-mail message to ftpmail at gatekeeper.dec.com with 
  the word "help" (without the quotes) in the body of the message.


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 16:12:22 -0500
From: Steve Alexander <stevea at clv.mcd.mot.com>
Subject: Just Hops packaging ...


I recently posted a note recommending 'Just Hops' (800-934-2739) as a Hops
source because of their excellent selection and prices.  I got one followup
email, the author stating that he had gotten hops from Just Hops (under
previous owner?) in a plain poly bag with a twist-tie closure !!

I called Just Hops' owner, Pete Lujan, to discuss this.  Pete tells me that
they are using the same methods and sources as Mark Kellum, the previous
Just Hops owner.  The bags come from American Plastic, are listed as oxygen
barrier and are vacuum sealed.  Pete tells me that they have never operated
differently since taking over Just Hops from Mark Kellum last year.

I have personally ordered whole hops from Just Hops over the past several
years, from Kellum and recently from Lujan, and have always gotten my hops
in oxygen barrier vaccuum sealed bags.  Same friendly service from Pete
too.

no affiliation, just a satisfied customer,
Steve Alexander

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 16:15:59 -0500
From: "Sornborger, Nathan" <nsornborger at email.mc.ti.com>
Subject: RE: glatt mill rollers 

>
>Keith wrote:
>>My glatt mill gears stripped during grinding of 10 lb of raw wheat a few 
>>weeks ago. Searching previous HBD turned up threads on successfully 
>>replacing these gears with metal ones. However I have not been able to 
>>contact anyone directly who has done this. Does anyone have a CAD drawing 
>>that they have used to successfully produce new metal gears? Mine are 
>>pretty mashed and would be difficult to use to model new ones. TIA.
>
>I have never seen one of these mills but heard they have plastic gears, is
>this correct? Under the assumption it is, they can be replaced with metal
>ones but I wouldn't want to pay to machine them, especially when they can be
>bought for a few bucks a piece. If you can tell me the center distance, shaft
>diameter, and key size (if any) I will tell you some part numbers and who you
>can get them from. I will post this info as you probably aren't the only
>person this has happened to.
>
>Nate Sornborger, Barrington, RI
>
>
>

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 14 Mar 97 13:32 PST
From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns)
Subject: re: Decocting Pale Ale Malt

Steve analyzes my decoction disasters with Pale Ale Malt in HBD 2374:

<big snip>
If you are decocting pale ale malt, skip the protein rest
and go straight from mash in to saccharification temps, then to
mashout. 
<another big snip>

So, mashin in at 140, no rest, pull the thick part of mash, raise to 158F in 
kettle over 15 - 20 minutes, then boil it for 15 minutes then dump it back 
into the rest mash? 

My guess is that in my original 20 minute rest at 140F, 90% of the starch 
was converted and all the enzymes leached out into the liquid mash. When I 
pulled 80% to the kettle and started fooling with it, regardless of temp 
control problems, all the sugar and all the enzymes remained in the rest 
mash. In the 20-40 minutes of screwing around with the decoction, all the 
starches and sugars left in the rest mash got converted/broken down to 
extremely simple sugars. So when the decoction was returned to the rest 
mash, it was too late to do anything. I could have tested for this with an 
iodine test but I have never taken the time to do that.

With the process of mashing in at 140f and going straight to the decoction 
without a 20 minute rest, I'm still afraid that lots of enzymes would be 
left in the rest mash, but it sounds like very little conversion would be 
made until I got the decoction going. Sounds plausible, but difficult due to 
the very tight time constraints. Might as well just get some of that Belgian 
Pale Malt or Belgian Munich (or both) and have an easier time of it.

More comments?

Thanks Steve, I'm beginning to feel a little less stupid about this painful 
lesson.

Charley


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 17:10:20 -0500
From: Tim Martin <TimM at southwest.cc.nc.us>
Subject: Summary of decoction at mashout

Hey Neighbors,

My question was will it harm or improve my beer and allow me to
mashout in a Gott cooler if I do a simple decoction at the end of the mash.

Well....first I would like to thank! all who took their valuable time to
respond to me.  I generally like to thank people individually but I had
enough responses that I thought I would do it here and include a
summary.

Second....boy I'm I glad I didn't try this first before I ran it by you all.  
Logic doesn't always dictate the best course to take in this
hobby/obsession.

All responses indicated "Do Not Do This" at the end of the mash because
of the starch that will be released and no enzymes left to convert the
starch.

Many did indicate that I could drain the grains of the wort and then boil
the wort and add back to the mash to reach mashout temp.  One person
did think this helped improve the flavor of his beer.  Guess I still feel
skeptical that this would contribute to any flavor enhancement.

The only time I had a stuck sparge was my first all grain batch using my
homemade EM in my Gott cooler.  When I started to recirculate it stuck like
snot on a doorknob.  After that experience I now fill the cooler with
sparge water before I begin to recirculate and I've never had a problem
since.  So.... I would consider draining my wort to boil and add back to
the mash for mashout but I guess I would first have to add the sparge
water and float my grains which tends to add more time and hassle to
the process for all I receive.  

Well, thanks again for keeping me on course and out of the rocks.

Tim Martin
Cullowhee, NC

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 14 Mar 97 17:50:35 UT
From: "C&S Peterson" <CNS_PETERSON at msn.com>
Subject: Decoction Troubles

HBDers -

C. Burns writes about his decoction troubles.  CB, decoctions can be 
fun....really!  Since I don't know all the particulars, let me just give you 
some possible leads on your head/body problems and that dishwater thing.  My 
views are based solely on my singular experience; others in the collective may 

have better informed suggestions.

 - Decoctions are really designed for under-modified malt.  This usually means 
lager (even US 2-row like Klages) or German malts (pils, lager, vienna, 
munich, etc).  BUT, today, even these malts are pretty well modified.   My 
suggestion (and others will differ here) is to limit or skip the 122 rest.  I 
have had really good results in simply splitting the grist into their 1/3, 2/3 

portions, running the 1/3 decoction mash from 130 for 15 minutes, 160 for 30 
minutes, and to boil.  When the decoction mash begins to boil, infuse the rest 

(e.g.: 2/3 grist portion) with hot water to bring it to 140 for 15 to 30 
minutes, depending on how long you want to boil the decoction.  Then combine 
the two mashes for the main rest at 158-162.  The final decoction is the 
"thin" one to get to mash out.  For, me this method has worked like a charm.  
I have used the traditional method which brings the whole mash through 122 for 

a long time, and have had tasty but thin, headless beers.

Before you try this though, make sure you think it all through.  Exactly how 
much hot water are you going to need and when.  This is a PIA the first couple 

of times through, but once you get the hang of it I find it to be second 
nature.

 - For temperature control, I have found it is useless to even attempt to get a 

good temperature distribution unless you have at least 1Q of liquor per # of 
water.  And here is one of the advantages of decoction.  You can start with a 
fairly thin mash, and since you are bringing a part of it to a boil, you don't 

need a lot of infusion water (in fact with the method above, I usually have to 

add cold water or ice after combining the decoction and rest mashes).  I don't 

pay attention to those that advocate thick mashes for fuller beers, better 
conversion, etc.  They maybe right, but I think temperature control is more 
important, and whatever advantage there is in thicker mashes, I have found it 
self-defeating in that I cannot hit the right temps, I scorch the decoction, 
aerate the mash in over stirring, and generally have an unenjoyable decoction 
session.  And I make some pretty malty beers starting with what would be 
considered a "thin" mash......

 - For your dishwater taste, make sure you are checking the Ph BEFORE you get 
the grain above 160F.  Use really good Ph strips (I get mine from Brewer's 
Resource; they cost about $15/100, but are well worth it), or a calabrated Ph 
meter.  DON'T SCREW AROUND HERE.  A high Ph on a decoction spells "slug bait" 
- -- you will leach out tannins and other nasty stuff that will give your beer 
one foul taste.  As you can tell I had to learn the hard way on this one too 
(20 gallons down the drain last year........).  So make sure that you measure 
a cool sample, or make a correction (I simply make sure the Ph is around 5 to 
5.2 uncorrected), and don't oversparge.  Its better to lose a little 
efficiency by undersparging than to oversparge and ruin a whole batch of beer.

 - As far a decoction for ales, I tried this on an old ale last year.  It 
worked OK.  But again, British malts are well modified, so a protein rest is 
really unnecessary.  For my maltier ales, I like to simply perform the "thin" 
decoction.  This is essentially the carmelization technique I think Noonan 
refers to in his Scotch Ale book (I could have the reference wrong here...).  
But it provides a little extra heat for mash out, giving me more room in my 
mash tun for grain.

Hope this helps,

Chas Peterson
Laytonsville, Md

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 09:02:42 -0600
From: Rick Olivo <ahspress at win.bright.net>
Subject: Brew Tunes

In response to the thread initiated by Karl Lutzen about Brew Music.

I invite folks to listern to the rollicking ditty by Tom T. Hall, "I
Love Beer" 
"Whisky's too rough
Champagne costs too much
and Vodka puts my mouth in gear.
This little refrain
should help to explain
as a matter of fact I like beer!"

You get the idea... It's a song best sang after consuming a few bottles
of homebrew. As a matter of fact, (so to speak) the song (Available in
the collection "The best of Tom T. Hall") is just one of many by Tom I
enjoy while whipping up another batch of "Old Smiling Jackass Cetic
Strong Ale." I also enjoy Hank Thompson's and the Brazo Creek Boys
collection "And a six-pack to go" a real classic of 50's country and
rockabilly with a beer-drinking theme. 

I also would add my "me too" to Skotrat's (Scott Abene's) spirited
defense of Scottish, Celtic, Gaelic etc. music as being fitted for
brewing. This kind of music adds deep emotion to the brewing process, a
factor that is every bit as important as high quality malt, fresh,
pungent hops, pure brewing water or lively yeast. I mean, what is going
to give you better beer, a single, kilted master piper playing the
sweet, comforting strains of "Amazing Grace" or Marilyn Manson playing
"Antichrist Superstar?"

I rest my case. 

Strange Brewer
aka Rick Olivo ashpress at win.bright.net
Vite sine cervesae mamulatas!!!
(Life without beer sucks!!!) (With apologies to Cicero)

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 22:12:49 -0500 (EST)
From: CGoldone at aol.com
Subject: Subscription

Dear homebrew at brew.oeonline.com,

A friend recently turned me on to your publication.  I would please, like to 
receive it.

Thank you
Chuck Goldone

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 13:13:49 -0500
From: kathy <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: [Fwd: london pubs]

Message-ID: <33299377.299C at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 13:05:45 -0500
From: kathy <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Reply-To: kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: gontarek at voicenet.com
Subject: london pubs
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I was given a copy of the Evening Standard London Pub Guide by some
experienced London visiters, with the following pubs highlighted:

The Spaniard's Inn   Spaniard's Rd, NW3   0181-455-3276
	a 400 year old inn reportedly one of Dick Turbins haunts

Jack Straw's Castle  North End way, NW3   435-8885 
	famous old coaching inn rebuilt in the 1960's

The Swan   66 Bayswater Rd W2    2625204
	Famous for its terrace

The Old Red Lion 418st John St, EC1   837-7816

	Especially for the theatre crowd

The George Inn, 77 Borough High St,SE1    407 2056

	the most famous pub in London and Ev Std "pub of the year"
	going strong in 1521

The Prospect of Whitby 57 Wapping Wall, E1    481-1095
	oldest and most famous riverside pub in London

Ye Olde Mitre Tavern  Ely Court, Hatton Garden, EC1    405 4751
	One of Londons most picturesque

The Citte of York  22 High Holburn, WC1         2422 7670
	built in 1430 with huge wine butts (1000g) supported on timbers behind
the bar."There is no pub in London quite like this one. The main bar
resembles the great hall of a medieval manor rising to a soaring truss
roof and high gothic windows."

The White Horse   1 Parsons Green, SW5      7362115 

	"The Sloaney Poney, as it is known locally, claims to be the only place
in the world to offer all 15 Trappist brewed beerd, houses manyEuropean
lagers and has up to 100 wines on its wine list."

Mark Dorber, cellarman came to Chicago for the Real Ale festival and is
a truely gracious, personable and knowledgeable individual. 

Cheers and lift a pint for me.   jim booth, lansing, mi



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 15:04:04 +1300
From: "Chris A. Smith" <casmith at metro.telecom.samsung.co.kr>
Subject: Paint Stirrers?

Just wondering if anyone had tried using
one of those paint stirrer attachments 
for a hand drill to aerate the wort.
Others have said that it is the
mixing action that provides most of
the oxygen uptake by the wort fluid. 
Seems to me that this is a tool which 
is specifically designed to move thick
liquids around with a minimum of splashing
 ... and can be had cheap at any hardware store.

Just a suggestion, I guess.

Sugohaseyo.
- -- 

Chris A. Smith
Switching Systems Group
Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.
Seoul, Korea

Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 07:00:54 -0500
From: "Frederick L. Pauly" <flp2m at avery.med.virginia.edu>
Subject: Help with Rochefort #8

I'm not a big Trappist Ale fan  but the Rochefort #8 is a
wonderfully full bodied fruity beer without that (excuse me)
'contaminated ' taste of most Trappist beers. 
Zymurgy spring 1995 has a good article on makeing a double but I
would like to be more sure of my yeast choice.
Can anyone recommend an available yeast for this beer that will
come close to the right character?
Thanks
RIck Pauly
Charlottesville,VA

Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 07:41:56 -0800
From: Kent Michaelsen <kentmich at tiac.net>
Subject: Re: Pubs in UK

Rick-
While not English, I do get to London fairly often on business.
Unfortunately I can't find Harlow in my CAMRA guide. Now this doesn't
mean it is without merit, nor that it doesn't have any good pubs in it.
You'll merely have to try them all, until you find the right one;) I
believe it is right to the north of London?

As for London, there are so many I'd need to know roughly what area of
the City you'll be staying in. Email me if you wish and I'll be glad to
look some up for you.

The London area specializes in and bitters, and like Germany it is
difficult to find many regional favorites outside their home area - so
forget about "real" porters, stouts, etc. other than normal keg types.

Two favorite "live" cask-conditioned bitters that are easy to find in
London are "Fuller's London Pride" and "Adnams". Both are former CAMRA
Beers of the Year, and represent the style well. If you like IPAs, you
might have to search a bit - I've tried Green King and found it thin and
watery. IPA seems best represented in bottles.

Again, the CAMRA Good Beer Guide is available in any bookstore in
England, and I highly recommend you get it. It describes not only the
best pubs (based on quality and variety of "real" beers) but the
hundreds of beers to be found as well. Have fun.

Kent Michaelsen
Hampstead, NH USA

Rick Gontarek <gontarek at voicenet.com> writes:
> I am fortunate enought to be going on a business trip to the UK the
> week of 22 March. Since this is my first visit, I would like to get
> some input regarding great little pubs to visit. I will be staying two
> nights in London, then a few in Cambridge, and then a few evenings at
> one of my company's R&D facilities in Harlow. If anyone has any advice
> on where to sample beer, I would greatly appreciate it. BTW, I have
> heard of CAMRA's guide to real beer in the UK, but since time is
> short, I won't have the chance to run out and get it. Any summaries
> are welcome.

Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 08:55:23 -0500
From: Ken <kbjohns at oscar.peakaccess.net>
Subject: 6th. ann. NY City Homebrew Competition

Just a reminder. 

Competition date is Sun 3/23/97 Entries are due by Thurs 3/21. 

We still need judges & Stewards.

Complete information, entry and judge/steward forms can be found at URL
http://www.wp.com/hosi/companno.html




Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 10:10:53 EST
From: aehoward at juno.com (Andrew E Howard)
Subject: Re: Live Beer

> My question is this:  supposing I wanted to run a brewpub, offering
authentic "live
> beer".  What kind of hardware would I need?  I'd also like to know: How
do the hand
> pumps work?  Do they pull the beer up with a "piston" or do they
pressurise the
> kegs?  What do the kegs look like?  Stainless steel or wood?  How long
will the
> beer live before it goes flat?  How do pubs get deliveries from the
breweries?

Funny you should ask!  The current issue of Zymurgy addresses just such
questions in an article on Real Ale.

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 06:09:32 -0600
From: Cuchulain Libby <hogan at connecti.com>
Subject: Re: Beer for Wedding

Eugene Sonn asks about what to brew for a wedding.
I too am getting married and had to decide what to brew. I settled on a
semi-dry sparkling blueberry mead. If you have the time, you might
consider a mead seeing that you have 3 beers chosen already. If you
don't have the time than I would recommend a nice hoppy (A)IPA as a way
of rounding out your selection.
If I brew it for you can I come?

Cuchulain
	---------------
        |  will work  |
        |     for     |
        |    grains   |
        |             |    
        ---------------
              | |
              | |
            \\| |//

Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 11:49:10 -0500 (EST)
From: AllDey at aol.com
Subject: Throttling back the 'ole pump 

I recently acquired a 1/25 hp Teel model 1P677A magnetically coupled pump
after reviewing HBD back issues and visiting extremely some helpful RIMS
sites.  I intend to use it for re-circulating mash and transferring to the
kettle.

Advice gleaned from various sources warn against restricting inflow; instead,
folks suggest using a valve on the outlet side to reduce flow to a more
desirable 1/2 gal per minute rate.  Will this hurt the pump?  Eventually? (It
seems like an awfull lot of pressure builds up when I have a valve and run
water through, but pump still sounds ok).  Can a voltage controller be used
with this particular pump?  Private posts are fine since I know this topic
has been beat to death...but I still can't seem to locate the specific
answers I need. 

Paul Dey,  Cheyenne,  WY,   alldey at aol.com  

Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 12:15:32 -0800
From: Randy Erickson <RANDYE at mid.org>
Subject:  Re: HBD Dist List Use

Dave and others asked about the use of the HBD distribution list for
unsolicited mailing purposes.

I use my work account for HBD and my home account for Usenet,
mostly.  I rarely (maybe never) receive SPAM on my work account, but
it's a regular feature on the home account.  Do any of you also post to
Usenet?  That'd be my first suspicion.  I'd also question my ISP to see
what their revenue-generating policies are.

Many of us have taken to modifying out "reply to" fields and making a
note of the modifications in our sigs to foil spammers.  It's a PITA for
legitimate mail, but it is effective.

There is a SPAM FAQ somewhere on the Web, but I don't have the URL
here at home.  If this crap bothers you, be sure to complain (politely) to
the ISP.  Many services have an abuse address, i.e. abuse at ISP.com
you can complain to.  AOL does, FWIW.  By law I believe, every ISP must
have an webmaster at ISP.com you can also complain to.

Dave wrote: " All of them require a "remove" response since they all =
promise (threaten) more e mail to follow. "

Beware of this too!  The FAQ says that this is often a ploy to generate,
you guessed it, another advertizing mailing list.  Always complain to the
service provider first.

If you _do_ happen to get brewing-related SPAM, I'd look to the AHA
since I have a very strong suspicion that that's the source of my
snail-mail junk mail   ;-)

Randy in Modesto 

Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 19:44:08 -0600
From: Kristin Miller/Carl Helrich <knc at comsource.net>
Subject: toxic beers and Papazian's books...

I have only been reading the HBD since January, so I apologize if my
question has been covered before--I'll search the archives dutifully then.

As a new brewer, I as others have relied on TNCJOHB as my ultimate reference
guide.  My ever-supportive wife gave me the go-ahead today to purchase
Papazian's _Homebrewer's Companion_.  I say that she is supportive, because
I have not had what one would call an out-and-out successful batch (out of
eight).  Most have been drinkable, and out of pride that's what I've done.
She thinks it incredible that I still am brewing.  For me it's a challenge
not to let the little yeasties kick my butt.

So, with the new book, I turned to the Troubleshooting guide of course,
trying to determine what *exactly* the cause for my
cidery/sour/fruity(apple) flavors is.  On page 409 at the bottom he notes
that "some of these substances are toxic and should not be tasted."  Yet I
remember in TNCJOHB that he wrote (on page 363), "Because of beer's acidity
and alcohol content, there are no known pathogen's that can survive in
beer;therefore, you aren't going to die."

This seems to be a fairly hazey issue (unlike my homebrew).  I really want
to drink what I have bottled at this point, but now I'm hesitant to do so.
I have drunk the previous batches with no ill effects so far.  Is it killing
me slowly?  In any case, I'd love to hear some responses from those more
experienced than I.  And if some one can help me with my off-flavors--I use
all malt-extracts, aerate cool wort, ferment ales at 66 F in closed glass
carboys, and my meads have all tasted great--I would appreciate it.  Thanks
in advance for keeping me alive (and sane.)

Carl
Oakland City, IN



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 23:23:48 -0500
From: "Chris Strickland" <cstrick at iu.net>
Subject: More Questions on Hops Rhizomes

I've been reading this thread with interest.  I live in Florida and I'm on
my 3rd year of growing Cascades.  Last year I had about 2oz of flowers. 
The previous year I had some flowers, but not much.  I grow the hops in
gallon plastic pots that have holes in the bottom.  The roots grow through
the holes.  After the first year I cut the roots at the bottom of the pots
and moved them.  In hopes that the roots in the ground would grow.  Nothing
happened.  Now I'm hearing that right now would be the best time to cut the
roots.  But my plants are about 4 ft high with right now.  Can I cut the
root at the bottom of the pot again to get new plants?  Will it hurt my
current growth?

BTW:  I can only grow hops in Florida by planting them on the South side of
my tool shed.  That way they only get the morning sun.  I tried full sun,
but it kills them.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Strickland - Approved Discount Vendor for SecureTax
Email: cstrick at iu.net
New Horizons Software - http://www.sitesurfer.com/newhoriz
[Programming/UNIX/WEB Services,Central Fl Jobs, Entertainment, Vacation,
College Football]


Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 07:42:49 -0800
From: Kent Michaelsen <kentmich at tiac.net>
Subject: Re: Live Beer

I share your love of "live beer", based on many hours wandering London,
CAMRA guide in hand, while supposedly on business.

There's a good diagram and description of beer engines in the Classic
Beer Style Series "Pale Ale" (Brewers Publications, Boulder CO). Since
you're interested in real ales, it's a good book to get from your
supplier. Describes the whole genre from brewing history through how
they pump it up from the basement. Pictures and diagrams etc.

Basically it's just a hand powered pump with a piston and cylinder to
pump the beer out of the cask. The big difference between dispensing
"real ale" and "keg beer" is that a cask conditioned pale ale in the
British style doesn't have enough CO2 (only about 1 volume vs. the
normal 2 or 2.5) to force itself out of the cask the way a keg beer
might, let alone get itself upstairs. And to put enough CO2 pressure on
it to force it up from the cellar would gradually force-carbonate the
beer, causing it to be over-carbonated for the style.

The beer engine pumps the beer itself, and filtered air replaces it in
the cask. Thus the beer must be consumed within a few days before it
goes bad. The obvious solution would be to pipe CO2 under zero pressure
in to replace the beer instead of using air, but CAMRA refuses to list
any pub which does this, and apparently very few do. Not the proper way,
you know, and that's what real ale is all about.

Additionally, there is often a "sparkler" or restrictor nozzle built
into the pump. While the ale shouldn't have enough CO2 to harm the
taste, a nice head is preferred (especially in the north, they tell me).
So the sparkler causes enough turbulence to take what CO2 there is and
cause a head. Basically what you want is an almost flat, slightly cool
beer but with a head.

Now that I think about it, I guess I know why my Bud drinking friends
think I'm crazy!

Some homebrewers simulate the sparkler by shooting air (70% nitrogen
after all) into a glass of beer with a syringe to generate a head.
Naturally, artifically injecting either CO2 or nitrogen into beer is
cause for expulsion from CAMRA and death by one thousand Bud Lites.

Wooden casks are generally replaced with metal now. As for the concept
of brewpubs serving real ale, they're going like gangbusters here in the
States. But an Australian on rec.crafts.brewing was complaining that
they're having a hard time getting started there, and few are staying in
business. But maybe they'd catch on better in New Zealand.

- --- 
Kent Michaelsen
Hampstead, NH USA

Bruce Baker <Bruce.E.Baker at tsy.treasury.govt.nz> wrote:
>My question is this:  supposing I wanted to run a brewpub, offering
>authentic "live beer".  What kind of hardware would I need?  I'd also
>like to know: How do the hand pumps work?  Do they pull the beer up with
>a "piston" or do they pressurise the kegs?  What do the kegs look like?
>Stainless steel or wood?  How long will the beer live before it goes
>flat?  How do pubs get deliveries from the breweries?

Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 10:48:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Joe Rolfe <onbc at shore.net>
Subject: RE: pedios (homo/hetero)

 
 i guess i missed the whole point of the discussion and how it really
pertains to people brewing in the kitchen...i think only a lab tech
type would care if it were homo or hetero...not your average
homebrewer or for that matter you standard microbrewer.

from my limited experience...if you have them in your beer
and you specifically (recipe wise )did not call for them
the beer will be defective. right....regardless of what they
produce it wont be real drinkable. the results are easily 
definable defects.  if you need to test for these "unwanted
visitors" i believe HLP NBBA/NBBB will detect these at fairly low
concentrations.

i have not met a pedio i have liked.  and i do know that once
you get them into your hardware they can be a pain to get rid of.
 have read that a brewer had them in a gasket and they survived auto
claving (15 at 15psi).

nuff said.

joe

Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 23:58:35 +0800
From: K F Chow <hotline at connections.com.hk>
Subject: Remove

- -- 
****************************************
Who is earning what in Asia? Check the site :

Asian Salary   http://www.connections.com.hk/
****************************************

Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 10:07:57 -0600
From: Jim & Patti Hust <jameshu at lincnet.com>
Subject: Mash efficiency

I am a recent convert to all-grain brewing.  A few first time goofs, 
like not enough sparge water, trouble getting correct temperatures, and 
too much evaporation in the boil, but nothing major.  All in all, the 
pale ale is better than my expectations.  A question:  How does one 
measure the efficiency of the mash and sparge?  I have seen the magic 
numbers one shoots for, but just how do I know how well I am doing?  Any 
replies gratefully accepted.
Jim Hust
Lincoln, NE

Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 11:57:43 -0500
From: mel at genrad.com (Mark E. Lubben)
Subject: split/decoction


The recent posts with decoction questions prompted me to post my 
split/decoction method.  I get the decoction character AND great head 
with modern European pilsner or American two row malt.  When I forget 
the Irish Moss (IFTIM) chill haze hasn't been a problem yet.

I credit a suggestion Dr Fix made in his book "Vienna" to avoid extended 
(protein) rests at 45C-55C (50C=122F) if you want good head proteins.  
By the time you finish a normal decoction, the main mash has been in that 
range for 90 minutes.  When I first tried it I goofed around for two hours!
I found that just boiling the sweet liquid for mashout didn't taste the same.
I developed a variation which gives me more flexibility and better control.
The heating is boiling already converted grains with minimal time concerns.
You Will need to measure water volumes and trust your thermometer more.

I assume you know what your water does/doesn't need for a normal mash.  If
your jet burner smokes when adjusted low, use the kitchen for the decoction.


- --- Split/Decoction for 10lb / 5 gallon batch (fits a 5 gallon Gott) ---
         Double all weights and volumes for 10 gallons

Grind and divide your grain (assumed about 60F):
   3lb grain - decoction mash (normal % of light crystals here)
   7lb grain - main mash (put any Special B or roast grains in here)
Beware: grain works out to 1/3 quart per pound added to the water volume.

If your cooler isn't over half full with 10lb grain and 3.5 gallons you will 
probably loose enough heat that you may need to add some boiling water during 
saccharification.  Either that, or double all the quantities to 10 gallons
and your temperature will drop about half as much, plus more beer.  :^)
I wouldn't try these mash rests in an uninsulated Zapap bucket.

Preheat a Gott or SMALL rectangular cooler with hot tap water while heating 
your brewing water.  Empty it and put 2.5 gallons of 155F water into
the cooler.  I assume you will loose about 8 degrees in bringing the cooler
up to final temp and other loses over the next 90 minutes.  If you have
doubts, try it ahead of time and adjust your temp up if needed on brew day.
It is easier to stir vigorously with the lid off, or add a handful of 
ice cubes than it is to raise insulated cooler temperatures.

Heat 1 gallon of water to 165F in a big kitchen pot of at least 2 gallons.  
Stir in 3lb of grain, you should hit 150F-155F.  If too far off, adjust
the temperature.  Now cover, and wrap towels around the pot (off the burner),
or put it in a preheated (150F) oven with the heat off for 30 minutes.

Put the pot back on the burner with medium heat, stirring occasionally.
If you have only one brewing thermometer, put it in the mash tun eventually.
Within 15-30 minutes you should get the decoction boiling.  Turn off the heat.
Check the water in the cooler is near 148F, and stir in the grain for the main 
mash and cover it (130F-135F).  Now turn the heat back up on the decoction 
and boil for 30 minutes.  You can add a quart of water midway for evaporation.

Add the decoction to the main mash and stir.  I find I get better mixing of
the grains if I mix with a spatula making a vertical J pushing down and then
toward an edge.  The grain from the main mash swirls up the mash tun into the
hot liquid on top.  Circular stirring leaves two spinning layers unmixed.
Check the temperature is a little above 150F and close the lid.  If it is 
above 155F it usually means I haven't mixed well, so mix some more with 
the lid open.  If it stays high, add a handful of ice.  Nervous types can 
hold 1/3 of the decoction until sure the temperature won't be too high.

>From here on it is mostly like a step mash, although you will discover
about half of your hot break on top of the grain when your lauter tun drains.
I let the mash rest for about an hour.  My iodine tests (if done) always pass
even earlier with this mash schedule but I let it go to reduce sweetness.

The big advantage of this approach is that by striking the main mash 
separately, my main mash has a 30 minute 132F rest instead of a 90 minute 
122F rest.  The decoction starts out simple like a small infusion mash.
Also if I get delayed early with the decoction mash or boiling,
my main mash isn't "ticking away" burning off the heading proteins.
The main disadvantage for pale ale malt is that all the amylase for
the decoction is being boiled, but it is after a 150F rest which can be
extended until the starch available before boiling is converted.
With a 132F rest the main batch of amylase is rarein' to go.

If you want a compromise to cut some time, the main mash could be started
after 30 minutes of rest on the decoction.  Then heat the decoction to 
boiling in under 15 minutes and boil for the remainder of the 30 minute 
132F rest of the main mash.

For those who mash in a keg, this split technique reduces the main mash 
time and hits a higher rest.  By adding a lid and blanket/cover with a 
10 gallon batch it might be stable enough for the 30 minutes without heat 
to produce good head protein levels.  I suppose the main grains could even 
be added infusion style after the decoction is mixed into the main ~140F+
water.  One might even be able to do it in one of those triple keg rigs using
the mash tun for the decoction, then adding the main grain and water after
tempering the decoction with part of the main mash water from the liquor
tank.  (Don't blame me if this makes a scorched mess. I haven't tried it!)


Happy split/decocting

Mark Lubben
(Sorry for the length - I tried to include the newbies)

Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 13:20:00 -0400
From: "Lorena Barquin Sanchez" <mbarquin at telcel.net.ve>
Subject: Heat Exchangers

Gentlemen:
Going through my old BT issues, in the May/June 1996 issue, Homebrew
Gadgets Showcase section, there is a heat exchanger made by Shadow Mountain
Brewing Co. called Brazepak.  Can anyone tell me their email, fax, or phone
numbers?  Have  any of you used this heat exchanger and would you be so
kind to inform me as to the results of using it?  This heat exchanger looks
like it is sealed unit, will cleaning it become a major problem.  Is there
any efficient way to prevent it to clog due to cold trub and/or other
particles?
Thank you
Lorenzo Barquin
Maracay, Venezuela

Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 16 Mar 97 21:26:30 +0100
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Torbj=F8rn_Bull-Njaa?= <torbjorn.bull-njaa at sds.no>
Subject: Foam color

Learned friends!
Can anybody help me with a simple explanation of the varying color of bee=
r
foam? I notice that som dark beers have brownish colored foam, while
other, (seemingly) equally dark beers have white foam? Is it caused by
additives or just malt differences?

Sincerely, Torbjorn Bull-Njaa
Norway

Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 19:47:47 -0500
From: "Frederick L. Pauly" <flp2m at avery.med.virginia.edu>
Subject: Quest:How to keep keg carbinated?

I want to keep my keg at 2.4 vols to keep the proper carbination
at 48F but I need it down to 5 or 6 for delivery. So I get it
carbinated properly and then have to reduce the pressure for
delivery and am to lazy at the end of the day to make sure the
keg is back at 15 psi to keep it at the right level of
carbination. 
I'm trying to think of some way to make sure the keg stays at the
proper pressure level with out having to remember to put it
there. I have an idea I'm going to run by you but I'm sure
someone out there has already developed an elegant solution that
they would be more than happy to share with me.
Since I have one CO2 tank that I use for various purposes in my
homebrew operation my plan was to have a hose through the side of
the beer fridge for the CO2 hooked to the kegs on the inside and
on the outside to some valve that would allow me to disconnect
the tank when I needed it for something else. Then, keeping the
beer at 15 psi and using 4-5 feet of beer delivery hose to drop
the pressure to resonable tap pressure. 
What do you think?

Rick Pauly
Charlottesville,VA

Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 22:00:13 -0500 (EST)
From: nkanous at tir.com (nkanous)
Subject: Making BIG Starters

Greetings collective!  Large starters are beneficial to complete and optimal
fermentation.  In creating those large starters, what about technique?  Is
it necessary to progressively increase the starter (Daniels recommends 1.2
gallons optimal for 5 gal wort) to a large volume, or can you repeatedly
decant off the "spent" starter and add fresh wort to a total of 1.2 gallons,
while keeping the actual starter size much smaller and manageable (i.e. less
extract in my brew)?  Hope this makes sense.  Thanks.

Nathan3


Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 23:56:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Alex Santic <alex at salley.com>
Subject: Stuck fermentation update

The outcome of the dysfunctional porter fermentation, along with some
comments on public and private responses. 

One person suggested that re-culturing some yeast from the first
problematic fermentation was a bad idea. I understand the sentiment and it
did cross my mind, but instinct told me that the yeast was fine. As I
mentioned, I made a connection between my observations and the situation
described in BT 4.5, starting on page 14. I don't think that writer was
having yeast problems either, but rather it is some aspect of the wort
composition that is causing difficulty without necessarily affecting the
viability of the yeast. My secondary now has a nice layer of clean yeast
that I intend to pitch into a dry stout wort, and we will see how it
works. 

It was suggested to me in a private repsonse that the Irish Ale strain is
pH sensitive and has a tendency to quit early if the pH drops too low. I
think that might well be on the right track. It may not even be the yeast
strain per se, but just that this yeast is popular in dark ales with a lot
of roasted grains. In future brews I intend to keep calcium out of the
mash entirely apart from what might be in the water. I wonder if anybody
has a WAG as to why, at a certain pH, foam production would stop while the
yeast is actively fermenting, and why there would be a buildup of CO2
bringing things to a halt. 

Another person suggested that the fermentation was actually complete at
1.020. Of course I had considered the possibility, but not for more than a
few seconds. It wasn't plausible considering an all-grain wort mashed at
152F with the grain bill I described. No way it could have been finished
at 60% apparent attenuation. 

What actually happened is that the SG didn't budge until I started the
swirling routine that I described. Several times a day, over the course of
several days, I was able to generate an impressive outgassing of CO2 by
swirling the carboy. This amount of dissolved CO2 could not plausibly be
left over from primary fermentation. Activity seemed to continue as long
as I caused the gas to escape. This weekend, I checked the SG again and it
had fallen to 1.016, a much more plausible FG considering we started at
1.050. 

I'm now crash-chilling the ale to drop out all the yeast and I intend to 
prime relatively lightly for bottling. If I were pasteurizing this beer, 
I'd have to name it Shake 'n' Bake porter.  :)

Alex Santic
New York City


Return to table of contents