---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Starch & Gelatinization- Part1 (Charlie Scandrett)
  Starch and Gelatinisation- Part2 (Charlie Scandrett)
  Recent Postings on Steeping Grains (John Sullivan)
  Rumbings in the Industry (rjlee)
  Hot Water Supply When You Need It - Shorter Brewing Day ("Reed,Randy")
  Virgin No More! and Request for Yeast Bank Info (Kate Cone)
  Digital Thermometer (haszarda)
  Hop Profiles Pt III (John Goldthwaite)
  filters (Jeff Sturman)
  .Exotic Heat Exchanger/ Layered B & T./ Peated Porter/Malt Specs/ ("Rob Moline")
  RE:> Alt recipe (Jeff)
  What makes a nut brown a "NUT" brown (Charles Burns)
  re:haze (Charles Burns)
  RE: dwc pale ale malt (John Wilkinson)
  Broken Thermometer ("John Robinson")
  Briess Pale Malts (DJBrew)
  Ireks Vienna Malt ("John Robinson")
  decoction and lautering wheat beers (Dean Larson)
  Apology to Culver City Home Brewing (Charles Burns)
  Mead making info (Hal Davis)


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Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 21:28:27 +1000 (EST)
From: Charlie Scandrett <merino at buggs.cynergy.com.au>
Subject: Starch & Gelatinization- Part1

This is another old response never posted but it has become revelant again.
Just goes to show that if you wait long enough, the same old threads will
come around again.

Dave Burley posted
>AlK says he thinks malt should be crushed until it is ideally *all* flour 
>Maybe he has a different definition of flour than most people. 

He might have, but the flour still needs to be GELATINISED. An even crush
leads to even gelatinisation.
 
>Dave then went on to quote a piece of Noonan's book, which mentions that 
>flour is undesirable, because it balls easily.  I think when Al wrote that
the ideal >(impossible) crush was big husks and finely ground starch,<snip>
This makes sense, as >the flour would be very quickly converted, and the
husks would not be so finely ground >as to cause lautering/sparging problems.

No, it doesn't make sense because gelatinisation is necessary for starch
flour to be converted by enzymes into simple reducing sugars. Balling is the
same problem as uncrushed malt, it impedes gelatinisation. Excess flour
usually causes an fairly impervious top dough that makes lautering difficult.
 
>I routinely find starch grits in my lauter tun, after the sparge is over. 
>this represents lost extract.  If these pieces of starch had been more finely 
>ground, they would have been available to the enzymes to convert, and more 
>extract would be the result.  

No, a homebrewer will never grind down flour to a single starch granule size
and then crush that so that enzymes may attack it. This is called
"micronised flour", not even a MM can do that for a homebrewer! It must be
GELATINISED, I think this is your problem . There are also "waxy" parts of
the starchy endosperm (centre bit) of the malt husk. The low temperature
rest at 40C of the 40/60/70 mash schedule is to break down the Glucan gums
that bind these bits together to appear "waxy". With inadequate hydration
and gelatinisation these can remain inaccessable to enzymes. 

Mark Bayer writes 
>> 6)  extend the sacch. rest to 1.5 or 2 hours, regardless of the iodine 
>test . 

Yes, OK, or make sure you have a sufficient rest above gelatinisation
temperatures but at relatively stable beta/alpha amylase temperatures.

Bruce Taber>   Why?  Should the iodine test not be trusted?  Is there
substantially more sugar available even after the iodine shows no color
change?<snip> 

It depends if gelatinisation has been complete. Iodine won't react with
ungelatinised starch.
 
>Now, why do i get a negative reaction for starch from the iodine test even 
>though i'm finding starch in my lauter tun?  because as soon as a little 
>piece of starch breaks off the big starch grit, it gets converted. Actually, 
>the enzymes are gathered round the starch grit like sharks around a whale, 
>tearing off pieces and converting them simultaneously.

No, enzymes are not piranhas, they are catalysts. Starch needs to be in
solution in the form of a SOL or GEL. Insoluble but wet starch (ie
ungelatinised) can be helped (when wet)in becoming a GEL by alpha amlayse,
but heat does the job more effectively and faster.

This next article (Part2) goes into a bot more technical detail.

Charlie (Brisbane, Australia)


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 21:28:42 +1000 (EST)
From: Charlie Scandrett <merino at buggs.cynergy.com.au>
Subject: Starch and Gelatinisation- Part2

- ----STARCH AND GELATINIZATION 101----

Starch is a non homogeneous polymer (i.e.a complex of simpler bits), a
"polysaccharide" of thousands of simple sugars in a similar way that fats
are polymers of aliphatic acids, proteins of amino acids and tannins of
simple phenols. Actually most of organic chemistry is easier to understand
if you imagine God spending most of creation week playing with a carbon
based Leggo(tm) set.

When a solid polymer contacts a solvent, the first stage of interaction is
to form a GEL. With enough solvent it then forms a SOL.

polysaccharide >> gel <<>> sol

The gel/sol interaction is reversible, with increasing water and temperature
and enzymic activity favouring the sol. The gel is a COLLOIDAL structure,
that is it has interparticle bonds(usually hydrogen bonds) of lower
potential energy than starch in true SOLUTION. Thus enzymically unconverted
mash starch extracted by lauter will form a gel haze by complexing when the
boiled wort is cooled and the lower thermodynamic condition is favoured.
This is called "starch haze".

"Simple" starch granules are very individual in structure and content
(snowflake phenomena) and vary from 2-100 microns in size. A simple granule
contains one nucleus. A "compound" starch granule has several nuclei and a
rigid matrix structure.

Starch is insoluble in cold water but in warm water it swells until
"gelatinisation temperature" when is *begins* to lose structure and leach
out compounds. A single granule will gelatinise over a range of ~2C but a
sample of complex starch grits or particles will have a 4-10C range. Sucrose
in solution will raise the gelatinisation temperature of starch by reducing
its swelling. So in a concentrated mashing situation, the conversion of more
easily gelatinised small starch particles to simple sugars can slow the
gelatinisation of larger less gelatinised particles, extending the range.

The *laboratory* gelatinisation temperature of barley *malt* starch is
64-67C (147-153F), unmalted barley is a couple of degrees lower. However as
I have pointed out above, this range can be extended by malt modification,
crush, mash concentration, and even the weather down at the barley farm.
Even after "gelatinisation", there is further breakdown of the starch
granule's matrix structure. Technically gelatinisation is not complete until
there is no structure left at all. The fact that *infusion* mashes do not
fully gelatinise malt starch is shown by the slight but consistent higher
yield of *decoction* mashes. 

I think inadequate time between 70C and 75C, inadequate stirring and coarse
crush are main reasons for ungelatinised, therefore unconverted starch.

Because it inhibits lipid and polyphenol extraction, I always try for a
coarse but even crush. Flour is of little interest to me. There are three
basic methods to ensure advanced gelatinisation and thus good extraction of
sugars and flavours. (Yes, degrees of gelatinisation affect flavours in
baking.) The unique flavours of decoction mashing found in lagers are, I
believe, partly due to the release of compounds by complete gelatinisation.
Pilseners are the lightest beers brewed and have these lager flavours, so
they cannot be due to Maillard reactions alone because a good indicator of
amount of melanoids is colour. Darker lagers and ales are both
flavour-affected by Maillard reactions, but Pils is unique in that it is
decocted but light, and still somewhat malty. Anecdotal experience is too
subjective for me to empirically confirm this.
 
1/ The 40C rest of Fix's 40/60/70 program is a beta glucan rest. It allows
glucanases to break down gums that impede gelatinisation. It also allows
good hydration of the starch cells for later swelling to gelatinisation,
while being below optimum protease and amylase activity ranges. This means
you can control your protein and fermentability profiles independant of this
rest. The speed of SG rise at 60C will confirm its efficacy.

2/ In single step infusion mashes optimum extract is obtained at ~68C
(155F), while optimum fermentability at ~65C (149F). This is partly
dependant on the greater gelatinisation at 68C and greater beta amylase
activity at 65C. Even in a single step mash, stirring and a steady rise to
mashout at >75C after sachrification will give the alpha amylase a chance to
work on the last bit of gelatinisation. Typically 15 minutes doing this will
be a noticable improvement on using just a single still rest and immediate
lauter. Start the rise after the iodine test shows existing gelatinised
starch  has been sachrified. If you wait until all amylase has been
denatured at some rest in the high 60's, you might only create starch haze.
You could withold a portion of the mash at 65C to add back after an extended
mashout. This would convert the last of the gelatinisation.

3/ Decoct the grain bed. Removing the thin enzyme-rich wort and boiling the
rest is the simplest method. Stirring is of extra importance here. A pH
below 5.5 is also critical to avoid astringency.

There is a fourth method which I am investigating. Auto Decoction. I have
built experimental and production mash tuns which are pressure vessels (25,
100, and 2600 litre cookers) with vacuum guages and mechanical stirrers. I
mash in at 58C for a protease and hydrolysing rest of 15 minutes. I then
reduce pressure with an adjustable release valve and a vacuum pump and apply
heat until the mash BOILS at ~65-70C! (About 0.24 atmospheres) The speed of
SG rise after 10 minutes of this is spectacular in laboratory trials. I am
decocting and sachrifying at the same time!


Charlie (Brisbane, Australia)
"I'm probably just too curious for my own good"-- Eric Fouch


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 07:37:14 -0700
From: John Sullivan <sullvan at anet-stl.com>
Subject: Recent Postings on Steeping Grains

There have been a number of threads in recent weeks regarding the 
steeping of specialty grains (aka roasted and crystal malts) for extract 
brewing.  Readers ponder how much extract they are getting, methods to 
ensure that they can easily remove the grain, etc.  I have not however, 
seen any postings that might be helpful to a newbie's brewing 
methodology. Here is my take on steeping specialty grains.  The method 
proposed by Papazian and some others of adding crushed grain to your 
kettle and then removing it after steeping (or egads!... even boiling) 
for a time is not a sound method for a brewer looking to advance his 
technique.   Steeping grains is:

	Limiting (i.e. you cannot steep all types of grains)
	A crapshoot (you do not know how much extract you will get)
	Potentially Problematic (unconverted starch)
	
It is a simple move from steeping to partial mashing.  Partial mashing 
involves taking your specialty malts along with a couple of pounds of 
base malt (i.e., malt with the diastatic capabilities)and mashing that 
somewhat in the same fashion as you would for an all grain batch.  Though 
a partial mash provides additional fermentables, the objective of the 
technique is to improve the flavor of your beer.  Partial mashers should 
be concerned about the flavor enhancement they obtain from the process 
and not how much extract they are getting out of their mini-mash. 

Here is ONE method which employs a small thermos style cooler (i.e., the 
kind you put lemonade in for a picnic) and a hop bag or piece of 
cheesecloth.  To employ a partial mashing technique, it is preferable to 
have a true false bottom (is that an oxymoron?)  but it is not absolutely 
necessary.  Now, I'm not going to discuss how to set your pH or anything 
like that here. I will be describing a mechanical process that works. Let 
it suffice to say, that there are a number of other considerations and 
aspects that can be brought into the discussion. 

1. Draw approximately 1 to 1.25 quarts of water per pound of grain that 
you will use.  Heat to about 170F.

2. Add your grain to the water. Stir thoroughly to ensure that the there 
are no dry balls in the mash.

3. Fill your cooler with hot tap water to warm the cooler.

4. Apply additional heat to your mash to get the temperature to about 
160F.  This generally means that you kill the heat at about 156F-157F. 
The temp will continue to rise.

5. Empty the hot water from your cooler.  

6. Jam some old racking hose over the cooler spigot. Double over your 
cheese cloth and lightly jam it into the drain of the cooler from the 
inside.  You can use your little finger, a pencil or whatever.  Don't 
cram it in too tightly however.  Just enough that it will hold in place. 

7. Transfer your 160F mash to the cooler and cover for 30 minutes or so. 
At this temperature, you will generally get full conversion in this time.

8. While your mash is in the cooler, prepare sparge water in the pot that 
you started your mash in.  The volume should be no more than 2 times the 
amount of mash water that you used.  

9. After mashing thirty minutes, recirculate your mash runnings until 
there are no visible chunks coming through your racking hose.

10. Add as much of your sparge water to the cooler as it will hold and 
let it run.  Add the remainder of your sparge water as space above the 
grain bed becomes available.

11. Use these runnings as a start for your extract batch.  That is, add 
it to your boiling kettle along with the remaining water that you would 
need and then begin your extract brewing process.

You can be creative in how you do a partial mash.  Some will rightfully 
point out that the there will be tracking in the cooler because 
everything channels to the outlet.  They are correct.  However, the 
objective is for flavor enhancement and not for fermentables.  When you 
get to the point that you want to take the leap to all-grain batches, 
then you need to be concerned about extract efficiency.  I guess I could 
have made this much shorter by saying don't steep your grains, learn how 
to do a partial mash.

Note that Jean DeClerck and Wahl & Heinus were not referenced here. Now, 
I'll take my punishment for not being scientific or thorough.

John Sullivan
St. Louis, MO

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 08:06:44 -0500
From: rjlee at mmm.com
Subject: Rumbings in the Industry

Looks like there are some rumblings in the states about these mail order
beer places.. Got an Industry Circular this week; this extracted from
it:
"The ATF has recently received a number of requests from various States
for our assistance in the enforcement of State aclohol beverage laws.
The States are concenred with mail order, telephone, and Internet sales
and shipments made directly yo consumers in a State from sellers located
outside the State. These transactions usually involve small quantities
of winie of beer shipped by out-of-state sellers (including beer and
wind of the month clubs) and, when considered individually, seem to have
a negligible effect on interstate commerce. Taken in the aggregate,
however, these shipments result in a substantial revenue loss to the
States of the purchasers. The National Conference of Statt Liqour
Administrators has esttimated that these types of interstate sales
currently amount to $300 million annually and result in the State tax
revenue losses of tens of millions of dollars. The State are also
concerned that shipments may be made to underage drinkers"

The ATF has taken the position that it *might* do something where it
can, but that it can only do things to those who hold a basic permit
(brewers and wholesalers; not retailers). But the open salvo has been
fired; you can expect the States to do something about it at some point
as there is too much money on the table to ignore.

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 09:18:49 -0400
From: "Reed,Randy" <rreed at foxboro.com>
Subject: Hot Water Supply When You Need It - Shorter Brewing Day

A few weeks ago I asked the question: Is there any good reason why I should 
not use the water from my hot water heater for my mash and sparge water as 
long as the water quality in my home is acceptable? I only got one reply 
from a brewer who said he thought that using cold water was better since 
that was the "rule" for cooking.

He said the hot water heater added calcium, or so he thought...

I know of no scientific reference for this statement.

The whole thread started when I looked a ways to shorten my brew day. I 
don't want to split into two days, as some people do. I just want to mash 
in sooner by having the water as mash temperature when I am ready to begin. 

There are three ways to do this (so far), in my mind. They are:

1) 	Fill mash vessel (converted keg) with cool water the night before, 
place electric warming plate underneath connected to timer. During the 
night, it kicks on and starts heating the water. With practice, I get the 
temperature I am shooting for at the time I am ready, or the water is 
hotter than I need, but I adjust it down as needed, by blending with cold 
water.
2) 	Fill mash vessel with hot water the morning of my brew day, and heat 
with my propane burner until I reach mash temp. (I currently fill with cold 
water and heat with propane to mash temp. Filling with hot tap water would 
be faster.)
3) 	Purchase an in-line heater like the ones found on some water 
dispensers. (about $80 - $90) They are often found in the workplace, and 
are used to provide very hot water (180 - 190 degree) for people who like 
to drink freeze dried soup or coffee. I believe others have posted that 
they use these. If the output was higher than mash-in temperature, cool 
water could be blended in to reduce temps.

Both 1 and 3 would save prep time on the morning of brew day. I believe 
there is no harm in heating water in advance (#1) other than evaporation 
and possible safety concerns. With #3, previous posts mentioned taping the 
in-line heater to the hot water line so as to keep temperatures up when 
pouring the amounts required since pouring a hot cup of soup is a bit 
higher load on the heater than pouring 7 gallons of mash water. The nice 
thing with this option is that you always have hot water when you need it. 
There would be less need to have a pot of boiling water off to the side for 
emergencies.

Does the collective have any other, refreshing ideas on this topic?

TIA,

Randy Reed
Stoughton, MA

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Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 09:20:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: katecone at ime.net (Kate Cone)
Subject: Virgin No More! and Request for Yeast Bank Info

THANKS FOR HELPING ME THROUGH THE FIRST TIME!

Thanks, Dave Bartz of Gourmet Brewer, Jim Bentson and fellow HBD'rs, for
coaching me through my first batch of Virgin Blonde Ale, which was also my
first batch of beer ever. It turned out to be more of a red than a blond,
but it's great just the same. Even my husband, who is the world's greatest
skeptic, was duly impressed, so much so that he wants to give it to all his
friends & clients. 

YEAST BANK INFO:

As some of you know, I'm working on a mystery novel set in a brewpub. The
brewmaster is a former monk who trained in an abbey. He is trying to
duplicate the yeast used to make an Orval type beer. What I need to know to
make this accurate is, supposing he got the recipe for this very special
beer from the abbey -- 
 -could he duplicate the yeast strain in the U.S.? 
 -How would he do that? 
 -Where would you create a private "yeast bank?" 
 -What temperature, what conditions, what would be the ideal room/place? 
 -If someone stole a portion of the yeast, how much would they have to take
in order to start their own batch? 
 -What would it be kept in (test tubes, etc.)?

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

IRISH STOUT

I have a recipe for a stout, but want to make it as close to an Irish stout
as possible. I bought some Murphy's and Guinness to sample. Anyone have a
recipe close to those? (This means you too, Dave Bartz!)

Thanks again!

Kate Cone
(Author of "What's Brewing in New England: A guide to brewpubs & micros from
Maine to Rhode Island," June 1997, Down East Books, Camden, Maine)


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 07 Apr 97 09:33:04 EST
From: haszarda at stricom.army.mil
Subject: Digital Thermometer

     Folks,
     
     While shopping for a piece to my Weber BBQ grill at 
     "Barbeques Galore", I came across a nifty digital 
     thermometer that looks like it has GREAT potential as an aid 
     to mashing.
     
     The unit is about the size of half a pack of cigarettes and 
     has a SS probe on about 18" of shielded wire.  It's designed 
     to read the internal temp of stuff you're BBQing like 
     turkeys, etc and will read to about 350F.  It has a built in 
     timer and an alarm that beeps when a temp setting is 
     reached.
     
     Price is $29.99!  Item is the "Charcoal Companion Perfect 
     Temp Thermometer, Product # 47-PT.
     
     Barbeques Galore (I'm not associated, humma, humma...) is a 
     national chain and may be reached at 1 800 GRILLUP for the 
     closest store or mail ordering.
     
     I didn't get one when I saw it, but most likely will soon.  
     Anybody have any experience with this unit?
     
     Mac.  (haszarda at stricom.army.mil)


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 09:42:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: ir358 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (John Goldthwaite)
Subject: Hop Profiles Pt III

Eroica--Domestic--All Purpose
Bred by open pollination of Brewer's Gold. Poor Storageability.
Better aroma than many high alpha acid hops. Suitable for general
bittering.

Alpha Acid: 11-13%    Beta Acid: 4-5.5%
Aroma: Quite strong but not unpleasant.
Storage: 55-65%
Used For: bittering and good aroma for high alpha hops (use 
sparingly). Pale ales, dark ales and Stouts
Substitutions: Chinook,Cluster,Galena,Nugget.



Fuggle--Domestic--Finishing
Traditional aroma hop, appeared in 1875 England. Also known over-
seas as Styrian Golding.

Alpha Acid: 4-5.5%    Beta Acid: 1.5-2%
Aroma: Mild and pleasant, spicy, soft, woody. (Harrelson?)
Storage: 60-65%
Used For: Finishing, Dry hopping. English ales, especially Pale
ales, Porters, Stouts. 
Substitutions: Willamette, East Kent Goldings, Styrian Goldings.



Galena--Domestic--Bittering
Bred from Brewer's Gold by open pollination. Excellent high 
alpha acid hop with balanced bittering profiles paired with 
acceptable hop aroma. 

Alpha Acid: 12-14%    Beta Acid: 7-9%
Aroma: Medium but pleasant hoppiness. 
Storage: 75-80%
Used For: Very bitter, but blends well with finishing hops.
American ales and lagers. Suitable for all beer styles.
Subs: Nugget, Cluster, Chinook. 



Hallertau--Domestic--Finishing
This is the US version of the German Hallertau (below)

Alpha: 4-6%    Beta: 3.5-4.5%
Aroma: mild, pleasant and slightly flowery.
Storage: 45%
Used For: Good all around bittering and finishing. Stock ales,
Altbiers, Belgian ales, and Continental style lagers.
Subs: Mt. Hood, Liberty, Crystal.



Hallertau--Imported--(Germany)--Finishing
Traditionally a superior German aroma hop. Excellent flavor.

Alpha: 3.5-5.5%    Beta: 3-4%
Aroma: Mild to semi-strong, the most popular aroma variety.
Storage: 50-60%
Used For: Versatile bittering and finishing. Wheats, Altbiers,
Pilseners, Belgian ales, American and German lagers.
Subs: Mt. Hood, Liberty, Crystal.

Only 14 left. Should be about 4 more installments. 

- --
BREWMOREBEER BREWMOREBEER BREWMOREBEER BREWMOREBEER BREWMOREBEER
BREWMOREBEER BREWMOREBEER BREWMOREBEER BREWMOREBEER BREWMOREBEER!

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Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 08:44:23 -0700
From: brewshop at coffey.com (Jeff Sturman)
Subject: filters

I have no experience with beer filters, but one of my customers wants one.
I have literature for two different filters, one from Cedar Vintage and one
from The Filter Store.  Anybody have any experience with these filters?  Or
any other filters that seem to do the job?   This customer has also seen a
ceramic filter for home brewers but he can't remember the name of the
manufacturer.  Anyone?

TIA
Jeff
casper, wy



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Date: Sat, 05 Apr 97 19:19:51 PST
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at kansas.net>
Subject: .Exotic Heat Exchanger/ Layered B & T./ Peated Porter/Malt Specs/

		The Jethro Gump Report
>From: Jim Elden <elden at accumedic.com>>
>Subject: Electric Immersion Chiller
>  A discussion with a friend, who is well-versed
>in air-conditioning technology, resulted in the idea
>that we could construct an immersion chiller from

1) a recycled air-conditioner
2) a plate-sytle heat exchanger
3) a copper-coil immersion wort chiller
4) a circulator pump
5) propylene glycol (anti-freeze 50/50 might just do)

>The idea would be to run the coolant from the air
>conditioner through one side of the heat exchanger
>and the glycol through the other.  The glycol would
>be circulated through the wort chiller coil.

	Why run glycol through the Heat Exchanger? Just run the beer through the
side of the HE that you propse to connect to the immersion chiller. Ball
valves on the cold side to throttle coolant flow through the cold side and
a ball valve on the hot side to throttle pumped wort will do the job.

>From: Eamonn McKernan <eamonn at atmosp.physics.utoronto.ca>
>Subject: Black and Tan 
>Does anyone know how a Black and Tan works? Apparently pouring >Guiness 
>on top of Smithwicks creates a layered beer which is stable. I've never 
>seen one myself, but viscocity alone won't explain it to my satisfaction. 
>And if the SG of Guiness is higher (is it?) it should sink to the bottom. 
>Any thoughts?

	My B& T works with a pale ale and stout, the pale ale having a higher
gravity than the stout. (My pale is made to a higher gravity than the stout
expressly for this purpose.) The stout is gassed with a N2/CO2 blend, and
is poured from the Guiness style faucet onto the convex side of a bent
spoon. This layering lasts for the duration of the pint, the cascde of the
stout is quite a show over the pale, as well. 
	I have found that the long term (duration of the pint) effect of layering
is lost if any of the components is missing....1) gravity differential, 2)
gas blend on the stout, 3) guiness faucet, 4) spoon. At least this is how
it works for me.

>From: scotty at enaila.nidlink.com
>Subject: Peated Malt and Porter Yeast
>Can anybody give me any personal experiences with peated malt?  I 
>have heard some people say that even in small amounts, it gives the 
>beer an 'open grave' taste.  I have also heard that there are two 
>kinds.  Light and Heavy.  I am looking to use some in a porter.  Any 
>recommendations on amount??
>Also, I was wondering, which yeast(from the Wyeast stable) would be 
>best for a porter?  1028?? 

	I used  50 lbs of Hugh Baird Medium Peated malt in a recipe with 500
pounds of other grains, and it went to the final round at GABF, and
received some nice compliments. But when I make it again, it will have from
50 to 75 % of the amount previously used. A little goes a long way!
	As for yeast, I could recommend a good dry one!  Wyeast, isn't that the
stuff you have to work with for 2 to 4 days before you can pitch it?

Malt Spec's...
	Schreier ( and DWC malts from Schreier) have fairly decent malt spec's for
their products, but without the lot number from the 50 pound bags, it is
really pointless. If your homebrew shop would keep track of these lot
numbers for each portion of the bag they re-package, it would be fairly
easy to give photocopies of the latest malt numbers to each grain
purchaser. If anyone wants a copy of the latest numbers for Schreier and
DWC malts, send a SASE to the brewery and I'll shoot you off a copy.

Jethro (Decoction? Why Bother!) Gump

Rob Moline
Little Apple Brewing Company
1110 Westloop,
Manhattan, Kansas, 66502.
"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"

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Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 13:45:56 -0400
From: mcnallyg at gam83.npt.nuwc.navy.mil (Jeff)
Subject: RE:> Alt recipe


Hi All,

  Matt (mra at skyfry.com) recently asked about his altbier recipe and also
about comercially available examples of the style.

  Mark (M257876 at sl1001.mdc.com) also asked about examples of the style.

  Back in Oct 96 (during the "ultimate 6-pack" thread), I posted a very
similar question about examples of the altbier style.  Responses I got
indicate that Im Fuschen (sp?) and Hannen Alt are both available here in
the US.  Consensus was also that Zum Uerige (sp?) is the defining brew
of this style, but it is only available at the brewery (brewpub?) in
Dusseldorf.  The only US made Alt that I have tried is Harpoon (and I'm
not sure how authentic it is because I have not been able to try the
others).

  The first batch of altbier that I brewed was based on a recipe posted
here in the HBD by Curt Speaker (css2 at oas.psu.edu).  It turned out very
much like the Harpoon Alt, but with more hop flavor and aroma.

  Here are the recipes for the three batches of altbier that I have now
brewed.  Version 2 was entered in the BBC World Homebrew contest and
did'nt score very well (it also had the least informative score sheets
I've ever seen.  I wont be entering anything this year.).  Version 3 was
recently entered in the Boston Wort Processor's homebrew competition and
scored a 34 and took second place in it's category.

  I hope this info helps.  If you brew any of the recipes, let me know
how they turn out.

version 1:

6.6  lb   Ireks munich light LME (unhopped)
1    lb   Munton&Fison light DME (unhopped)
1    lb   Ireks munich malt (6 L )
0.5  lb   60L crystal malt
0.25 lb   350L chocolate malt
1    oz   northern brewer (pellets, 8.8%AA, 60 min)
1    oz   hallertau       (pellets, 4.0%AA, 25 min)
1    oz   hallertau       (pellets, 4.0%AA, 10 min)
1    oz   hallertau       (pellets, 3.1%AA,  0 min)
1.5  tsp  irish moss (rehydrated, 15 min boil)
          Wyeast #1338 (1 qt starter)
5    oz   corn sugar (priming)

 - mashed all grains  at  158F for 60 min
 - 60 min, 3 gal boil
 - chilled, aerated, and added cold water to make total of 5 gal
 - fermented at 68-72F

IBU = 30 (approx)
OG = 1.057
FG = 1.012

4 days in primary (SG = 1.017 into secondary)
13 days in secondary

version 2:

6.6  lb   Ireks munich light LME (unhopped)
1    lb   DWC munich (6 L)
1.5  lb   DWC pale (1.8 L)
8    oz   M&F crystal (60 L)
4    oz   M$F chocolate (350 L)
1    oz   northern brewer (whole, 8.8%AA, 60 min)
0.25 oz   hallertau       (whole, 3.2%AA, FWH)
1    oz   hallertau       (whole, 3.2%AA, 30 min)
1    oz   hallertau       (whole, 3.2%AA, 15 min)
1    oz   hallertau       (whole, 3.2%AA,  2 min)
1.5  tsp  irish moss (rehydrated, 15 min boil)
          Wyeast #1338 (1 qt starter)
4.5  oz   corn sugar (priming)

 - mashed all grains  at  156F for 60 min
 - full boil, 60 min

IBU = 44.6
OG = 1.052
FG = 1.014

15 days total in primary and secondary  at  62F
30 days in secondary  at 42F

version 3:

3.5  lb   M&F extra light DME (unhopped)
3    lb   Ireks pilsner (1.5 L)
1.5  lb   DWC munich (6 L)
1    lb   Wyermans munich (6.5 L)
4    oz   DWC cara-munich (72 L)
2    oz   M&F chocolate (350 L)
8    oz   white wheat (2 L)
1    oz   perle   (whole, 7.0%AA, 60 min)
1    oz   crystal (whole, 4.2%AA, 40 min)
1    oz   crystal (whole, 4.2%AA, 20 min)
1    oz   crystal (whole, 4.2%AA,  3 min)
1.5  tsp  irish moss (rehydrated, 15 min boil)
          Wyeast #1007 (1 qt starter)

 - mashed all grains  at  154F for 60 min
 - full boil, 60 min
 - oxynated with O2
 - fermented  at  60F
 - kegged

IBU = 45.6
OG = 1.048
FG = 1.006


                           Hoppy brewing,

                           Jeff


==============================================================================

Geoffrey A. McNally                    Phone:  (401) 841-7210 x152
Mechanical Engineer                    Fax:    (401) 841-7250
Launcher Technology & Analysis Branch  email: mcnallyg at gam83.npt.nuwc.navy.mil
Naval Undersea Warfare Center
Code 8322; Bldg. 1246/2
Newport, RI  02841-1708

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Date: Mon, 7 Apr 97 11:53 PDT
From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns)
Subject: What makes a nut brown a "NUT" brown

I'm working up a recipe that hopefully comes close to DownTown Brown from 
the Lost Coast Brewing Co in Eureka CA. They call it a "nut" brown, I call 
it malty and chewy, lightly hopped and yummy. Any advice on giving it a 
"nutty" flavor (no I won't add pecans).

Charley


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Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 12:59:03 -0700
From: Charles Burns <cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us>
Subject: re:haze

Adam Rich asks about chill haze (among other things in hbd#2391):

Adam, is the beer hazy when its room temp or only after chilled. If its
hazy at room temp then its starch haze and your conversion just isn't
finished. if its hazy only when chilled then its probably protein.

I follow a similar mash pattern for the same reasons (body). I have been
experimenting lately in an attempt to get the body without the sweetness
that a high mash temp will give you.

In any case, I find the chill haze will actually drop out in a beer
that's cold stored for 3-4 weeks. I now use kegs 100% and find that
after 3-4 weeks in the fridge (dedicated refrigerator) the beer suddenly
clears almost overnight.

Charley

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Date: Mon, 7 Apr 97 15:03:32 CDT
From: jwilkins at imtn.tpd.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: RE: dwc pale ale malt

Al K wrote:

>I find that DeWolf-Cosyns Pale Ale malt
>is far less modified than many *Pilsner* malts.  When I use DWC Pale
>Ale malt, if I don't do a protein rest (I do it at 135 to 140F), I get
>a half-gallon of cold break in the fermenter!  This is far too much, in
>my opinion and this is why I have taken to doing a protein rest with
>this malt whenever I use it.

and Mark Bayer wrote:

>dwc pale ale malt is really the main ale malt i use, and i've noticed a lot
>of break material also.  my infusion mashed ales this fall ended up with 
>trub in the bottles (no protein rest).

The first time I used DWC Pils malt I asked in HBD about its level of
modification.  Several seemingly knowledgeable people assured me that
this malt was highly modified and required no protein rest.  I have done
three batches of Czech Pilsner with it since the first of the year with
single infusion mashes and no protein rest and noticed no more trub than
with English pale ale malt.  Al asked about the DWC pale ale malt and I
have not used it but included his post because it was referred to by Mark.
My wort from the pils mashes was not crystal clear but after fermenting,
lagering a couple of months at ~34F, and fining with gelatin my beer is
crystal clear from the tap.

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at imtn.dsccc.com

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Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:20:07 +0000
From: "John Robinson" <robinson at novalis.ca>
Subject: Broken Thermometer

Does anyone know the composition of Dairy Thermometer?  I broke the 
outer glass (not the inner one containing mercury) in my brew kettle 
during my brewing session this weekend.  I don't think that many of 
the beads or much of the adhesive goop got into the brew kettle.

I suspect that the beads are a lead alloy but I don't know the 
composition or toxicity of the white goop that holds them together.  
I boiled the broken thermometer in water, and none of the compounds 
appeared to disolve.  Additionally there were no off flavors in the 
wort after the boil.  We'll see what it is like after the 
fermentation is complete.  

In the meantime, if anyone can tell me anything about the materials 
used, this would be very helpful.

- ---
John Robinson       "When I am working on a problem I never think about beauty.
Software Developer   I only think about how to solve the problem. But when I
NovaLIS Technologies have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know
robinson at novalis.ca  it is wrong." - Buckminster Fuller (1895-1983)

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Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:22:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: DJBrew at aol.com
Subject: Briess Pale Malts

A few days ago there were some postings about Briess Pale malts. This
information comes from Briess.

There manufacture A 2-row Brewers malt & 2-row Pale ale Malt. They are both
100% Harrington. The pale ale malt is kiln off  high temperature which gives
it more color, more flavor & aroma and a lower diastatic power. Otherwise
they are very similar. He is what they write about their malts.

                           2-row               Pale ale
color (Lov)            1.5-2.0              3.2-3.6
Aroma/Flavor       Aromatic           Very Aromatic
Diastatic Power      140                   100

Briess is also making some new caramel malts. Their standard caramel malts
are made from 6-row barley. They now have 40, 60, & 80 Lov caramels that are
made from 2-row barley. 

Hope this is of some help.

Keep Brewin'
Dan Soboti

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Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:24:01 +0000
From: "John Robinson" <robinson at novalis.ca>
Subject: Ireks Vienna Malt

A local homebrew shop just brought some of this in and I used it to 
make a Marzen over the weekend.  I was wondering if anyone else had 
any experience with this brand of Vienna malt, and specifically was 
wondering if it fit with the comments that George and Laurrie Fix 
made regarding European Vienna malts (not much better than vienna 
malt from domestic 6 row, which is to say bad).

In addition, can anyone recomend one or more great brands of Vienna 
malt?  To qualify (in my mind at least) as great they would have to 
be made from the same quality malt as pilsner malt, and have very low 
nitrogen levels....

- ---
John Robinson       "When I am working on a problem I never think about beauty.
Software Developer   I only think about how to solve the problem. But when I
NovaLIS Technologies have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know
robinson at novalis.ca  it is wrong." - Buckminster Fuller (1895-1983)

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Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 14:15:26 -0700
From: Dean Larson <Dean.Larson at gonzaga.edu>
Subject: decoction and lautering wheat beers

brian wrote:

> a question: does decoction offer lautering benefits when using mashes 
>containing a relatively high (50 - 70%) proportion of malted wheat?  given the 
>discussion, if there's no lautering benefit, i may start experimenting with 
>infusion mashed weizen . . . it would be nice to be able to chop a bit of time 
>off the process.

Mark responded:

>>i have read that decoction makes lautering easier for wheat beers.  the
>>boiling
>>gives you a head start on protein coagulation, and this makes the wort 
>>easier to run off.  i believe eric warner's book on german wheat beers 
>>discusses this.  if i'm not mistaken, he compares the viscosities of barley
>>mashes versus typical wheat beer mashes and the latter have higher viscosity,
>>which causes slower runoffs.  there's an oxidation issue there also, if i
>>remember correctly.  if you oxidize the mash liquor before running it off,
>>it runs off slower.  decoction mashing is mentioned as an aid to the typical 
>>wheat mash viscosity/runoff problem.

A data point.
I recently decided to try my hand at decoction mashing.  As an ale brewer, a
weizen seemed like the only brew in my arsenal where a decoction was really
"true to syle" so brewed one based on a recipe in Eric Warner's book and
used his suggested single decoction mash schedule.  Grist was 6# wheat malt,
3# domestic two row.  The mash went more or less like this: dough in at
about 104F, heat to 122F and hold for 45 minutes, pull a decoction, heat to
160, hold for 20 minutes, continue heating to boil, boil 20 minutes, return
to main mash (still at 122F) to bring main mash to 140F, hold 30 minutes,
heat to 158F, hold 30 minutes, heat to 168 for mashout.  I mash in a 5 gal
SS pot, so here heating refers to heating on my electric stove while
stirring continuously.
The next week I decided to see if the time consuming decoction process was
all it was cracked up to be and brewed a batch with the identical grain and
hop bill, but used a step infusion mash.  Mash temperature schedule was
identical to the first batch.  The step from 122 to 140 was done with an
infusion of boiling water.
Just bottled batch #1, so no taste comparisons are yet available.  Two
observations however:

1.  No noticeable difference in lautering.  In both batches runoff was clear
after my usual amount of recirculating and continued smoothly throughout the
sparge.

2.  Extraction rates were virtually identical (within 0.5 ppg) between the
two batches with the infusion batch being a smidgen higher.

So, from a strictly procedural point of view, the decoction process didn't
seem to add any benefits, while adding about 2 hours to my usual brew time.
  
Some questions for the experts:  Is the stated lautering benefit of a
decoction mash really due to the decoction process, or is it maybe a
consequence of the various protein rests which usually take place in a
decoction?  I'd always heard decocting should increase extraction.  Is there
any reason to believe this should be the case with a grist of 66% wheat
malt, 33% domestic 2 row?

I'm glad I tried the decoction mash (hey, I'll try anything once), but
unless it results in a noticeable flavor improvement I don't know that I'd
revisit the process.

Skol,

Dean Larson
Spokane, WA


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Date: Mon, 7 Apr 97 15:02 PDT
From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns)
Subject: Apology to Culver City Home Brewing

In private email, it was pointed out to me that my recent posts regarding my 
frustrations with suppliers could be construed as a slam against the Culver 
City Home Brewing Supply Co. Please accept my apology.

I'm sorry that my frustrations got carried away, I in now way intended to 
slam anyone (what goes around comes around). I'm just having difficulty 
getting accurate information and one of the local shops definitely lied to 
me and I guess I let too much of that frustration come through.

My hat's off to Culver City for actually attempting to get some of the malt 
information out to us, and I hope they really can get more details about the 
Gambrinus Malts.

Sorry for my lack of tact.

Humbled in N. California,
Charley
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
Charles Burns, Director, Information Systems
Elk Grove Unified School District
cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us, http://www.egusd.k12.ca.us
916-686-7710 (voice), 916-686-4451 (fax)


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Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 20:00:31 -0500 (CDT)
From: Hal Davis <davis at planolaw.com>
Subject: Mead making info

Could someone please point me to the internet resources available on
meadmaking? I've made a couple of batches of mead, but I have some very
mead-specific questions, especially about yeast selection and suggestions
for recipes for the honeys I have on hand. Thanks.

Hal Davis

Proprietor, the Safety Brewery, Plano, Texas
Member North Texas Home Brewers Association

Ignorance can be cured. 


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