---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@ brew.oeonline.com
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Best damn beer event this summer! :-) (Robert Paolino)
  Joe Kolsh scales USA (Jim Martin)
  Re: Black & Tans (Brian Bliss)
  Re: Black & Tans (more) (Brian Bliss)
  Re: lactic acid (Brian Bliss)
  Pitched vessels? (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Torbj=F8rn_Bull-Njaa?=)
  more BT's, bb eats crow, and be kind to your homebrew store owner (Brian Bliss)
  Re: N2 Nyyyyyaaaaaagggggghhhhhhh (pbabcock.ford)
  brew hiatus (Dckdog)
  Care and Feeding of aCajun  Cooker (Tom Pope)
  Cajun Cookers (Jim Herter)
  Got Beer? (Tom Pope)
  extract-specialty grains (Rae Christopher J)
  Access to Snob Micros (Lorne P. Franklin)
  Beer in Whiskey Barrels (Glyn Crossno)
  GOT BEER? Kegs for cheap? (Volt Computer)" <a-branro at MICROSOFT.com>
  Joe Average and the Brewpub ("Mark Bridges")
  New Recruit (Aesoph, Michael)
  Solubility of nitrogen (Steve Zabarnick)
  Minnesota Beers ("Houseman, David L")
  Counter Pressure Filler Recs (Rob Kienle)
  SRM conversion to EBC (DJBrew)
  "Phenols" and stuff that ain't stuff (Charlie Scandrett)
  Casks, ("David R. Burley")
  Krausen that would not die ("David Root")
  Oak (Chris King)
  Stainless Steels ("Lorena Barquin Sanchez")
  Re: Mini Kegs (DGofus)
  DME/LME conversion, using hot tap water, shop scales, King (Dave Bartz)


NOTE NEW HOMEBREW ADDRESS:  brew.oeonline.com 

Send articles for __publication_only__ to homebrew at brew.oeonline.com
  (Articles are published in the order they are received.)
Send UNSUBSCRIBE and all other requests, ie, address change, etc.,
  to homebrew-request@ brew.oeonline.com BUT PLEASE NOTE that if
  you subscribed via the BITNET listserver (BEER-L at UA1VM.UA.EDU),
  you must unsubscribe by sending a one line e-mail to listserv at ua1vm.ua.edu 
  that says: UNSUB BEER-L

Thanks to Pete Soper, Rob Gardner and all others for making the Homebrew
  Digest what it is. Visit the HBD Hall of Fame at:
			http://brew.oeonline.com/

If your account is being deleted, please be courteous and unsubscribe first.
Please don't send requests for back issues - you will be silently ignored.

For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to lutzen at alpha.rollanet.org

ARCHIVES:
  An archive of previous issues of this digest, as well as other beer
  related information can be accessed via anonymous ftp from:
	
	brew.oeonline.com	/pub/hbd	
	ftp.stanford.edu	/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer

  AFS users can find it under

	 /afs/ir.stanford.edu/ftp/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer

  If you do not have ftp capability you may access the files via e-mail 
  using the ftpmail service at gatekeeper.dec.com.  For information about 
  this service, send an e-mail message to ftpmail at gatekeeper.dec.com with 
  the word "help" (without the quotes) in the body of the message.


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 00:01:10 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robert Paolino <rpaolino at execpc.com>
Subject: Best damn beer event this summer! :-)

                     Madison Homebrewers and Tasters Guild
                                 presents the
                  11th Annual Great Taste of the Midwest(SM)
                     A Festival of Brewers and their Beers
                             9 August 1997, 1-6pm
                              Olin-Turville Park
                              (John Nolen Drive)
                              Madison, Wisconsin

This is the big event, on the second Saturday of August if you're marking your
calendar for the rest of the century.  The midwest's finest breweries and
brewpubs (limited to 75 breweries) will offer more than 250 different beers in
a wide range of styles to a thirsty group of beer enthusiasts, and you can be
one of them!

Tickets ($18) go on sale May 1, and not a day sooner in fairness to all who
want to get tickets.  (Those who try to jump the gun will have their orders
held for as many days after May 1 as their orders were mailed too early.) 
Your ticket entitles you to a commemorative tasting glass, festival program,
door prize entry, and as many two ounce samples of great beer as you can
responsibly consume for the length of the event.

To order tickets, send a self-addressed-stamped-envelope (IMPORTANT!) with
your check for $18 per ticket (payable to Madison Homebrewers and Tasters
Guild, or MHTG if you like to save ink) to:

      Madison Homebrewers and Tasters Guild
      Great Taste XI
      Post Office Box 1365
      Madison, Wisconsin  53701-1365

Tickets are expected to sell out by Memorial Day (if not earlier), so clear
your calendar now to attend one of North America's longest-running beer
tasting events.  (Remember, though, no orders before May 1!!  We want everyone
to have a fair shot at getting tickets.)

By May, we will have started a WWW site for the event if you need updates:
http://www.globaldialog.com/madbrewers

Now go have a beer,



Bob Paolino                                  rpaolino at earth.execpc.com
Madison
Have a beer today... for your palate and for good health
Vice President, Madison Homebrewers and Tasters Guild
For information, write to us at mhtg at stdorg.wisc.edu



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 21:24:24 -0700
From: Jim Martin <fermntap at concentric.net>
Subject: Joe Kolsh scales USA

Hi, My name is Jim, and I'm a homebrewer...
Joe,
I've got a thing or two to say about that subject, so bear with me and my 
humble attempt to voice my opinion. ( who said" Any clod can have the 
facts, but having an opinion is an art"?)

To begin with who is the average "Joe"? Pat Babcock asks, "what will it
take to make better beer available to more people?"   Education !!!
If we are not aware of what's better, than we're happy with mediocre.
Hell, we'd all be driving a horse and buggy if we were never introduced
to "Better"  What I'm saying is we do become accustomed to our 
surroundings.   We get used to higher prices, higher taxes, higher living
standards, we even come to expect it. We don't have to accept it. We can 
make a change. 
   Education is the key. Today I was approched by a young man looking for 
work. I'm a general contractor, he was asking for a job,and I couldn't 
provide one for him. This bothers me. In spite of "unemployment 
statistic" the jobs that are available to the "average Joe"  are LOW
paying. You can't support a family on the "average job". What happened?
 This nation has exported manufacturing jobs one after another.
Corporations one after another pack up and move to bigger profits by 
manufacturing products overseas and shipping them back to market here,
where the average "Joe" buys, because he saves (.99cents).  When you 
purchase that tool, or TV, or even those cheap little toy's made in 
China. What you are doing is supporting some corporate CEO. The "average 
Joe" gets layed off.    That "average Joe is your neighbor or cousin 
or....homebrew supply retailer, who pays the taxes that support your 
community.
   As a manufacturer of brewing products I'm on a very small scale.
I specify that materials be US manufactured. When I place an order at
a local shop or even one in Ohio, it creates a job for that"average Joe".
If I can do that with my small operation, just think of the effect that a 
large factory order would make on a whole community. (Or the lack of an 
order)  Please, think about that "average joe" next time your shopping.
               You can make a difference!!!
 Dave, Re. Kolsh
   There are pretty strict guidlines for a Kolsh style beer.
OG should not exceed 1.046  the other mistake I see is dry hopping. Hop 
aroma should be low.  Dry- subtly sweet beer. A great beer in my opinion.
            Never knew a beer I didn't like!
Scales
  doe ray me....  Ask your homebrew supplier to leave the bath scale at
home and buy an inexpensive (under 100.)  shipping scale. I use a digital
type that is accurate to 1/4 #.                                          
                   Th Th Th That's all Folks....
Jim Martin,   http://www.concentric.net/fermntap
           FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS DRIVE IMPORTS!!!

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 00:25:19 CDT
From: Brian Bliss <brianb at microware.com>
Subject: Re: Black & Tans


>As has been pointed out, Guinness has a lower starting and finishing gravity
>than most lagers used in B&T.  Also, Guinness has a very low carbonation,
>and the point of the gas mix and the tap is to lower the carbonation even 
>more and create the head.  I think it has all to do with density (i.e. gravity

Go make a Black and Tan with coors.  You might ruin a good Guinness,
but it still floats.

I measured the FG of canned Guinness at 1.013 some time back.
Actally - make that 1.011, since my hydrometer is +.002, and that
was before I calibrated.  Most brew are a little ligher (in density)
than that.

I agree that the OG of Guinness is lower than most beers.

bb


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 00:48:47 CDT
From: Brian Bliss <brianb at microware.com>
Subject: Re: Black & Tans (more)


Yes, you can make a Black and Tan with a bottled Guinness,
but the effect is not the same.  There is no nitrogen in solution
to help the the Guinness separate and floating on top, so you have
to pour VERY carefully.  It is not a question of gravities/densities -
even if the beer on the bottom is lighter / less dense than bottled
Guinness, you can get it to float, but you don't get the marked
separation that you get when dispensing the beer on top with an N2 mix.

Anyway, I suggest that you go get a six pack of bottled Guinnes, a
4 pack of canned Guinness, some american pisswater, and some heaver
denser beer that is still light enough to see though, like Tom Hardy's Ale.

1) let all the contestants decarbonate/denitrogenate and measure their S.G.

2) Try out the 4 variations of pouring canned or bottle Guinness on top
of the other beer.  Try 2 variations of pouring the canned guinness:
just after the top is popped, and after it has decarbonated/denitrogenated.
Use a spoon for the Guinness, and pour as carefully a possible.

3) Try the same thing, pouring a little rougher.  In particular, try just
pouring the canned Guinness down the side, without using a spoon.

3) Drink the evidence.

Please report back on the 12 data points before reaching the conclusion
that "it must be the gravity (density)"...

bb


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 00:55:43 CDT
From: Brian Bliss <brianb at microware.com>
Subject: Re: lactic acid


>Well, I added 1/4 *tsp*  of lactic acid to the stike water as it was 
>heating. I stirred it for a few minutes and then rechecked expecting 
>to see a pH somewhat lower than 7.3 but what I got was a totally 
>unexpected 3.5! What the **** happened? Is this the cause of not 
>having enough buffer capacity in the water? What can be done to 

No, it's the result :-)

go ahead and use the sparge water, and don't worry. When it hits the
grain bed, the pH will rise, and 1/4 tsp. isn't enough to give 5 gal.
of beer any off flavors.

bb


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 09:30:01 +0200
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Torbj=F8rn_Bull-Njaa?= <torbjorn.bull-njaa at sds.no>
Subject: Pitched vessels?

I understand oak vessels are in great demand among brewers, for taste and
nostalgic reasons. I also read the discussion regarding possible tannin
differences in different kinds of oak etc.

I find this topic somewhat confusing, as I had the understanding that
these vessels traditionally were/are heavily pitched inside against
leakage? Then the tannin exposure must be minimal?

Provocative and ignorant greetings,

Torbjorn Bull-Njaa, Oslo


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 18 Apr 97 03:06:55 CDT
From: Brian Bliss <brianb at microware.com>
Subject: more BT's, bb eats crow, and be kind to your homebrew store owner


Feeling kinda pissed off about how everone had been sending me e-mail
about what they read the SG of Guiness is instead of just getting out
a hydrometer and looking for themselves, and conjecturing that it is
the SG of Guinness that makes it float on top, I respond "just try it".

Well, I decided to re-do at least half of my proposed experiment, so
I bought some canned Guinness and a six of Sam Adam's ale on the way
home tonight.  For pisswater, I had some miller Lite in the fridge.

The final gravities I masured were:  Sam Adam's Ale: 1.015,
Miller Lite: 1.002, and Guinness 1.011 (exactly as I had remembered.
One thing I didn't remember: the previous 1.011 figure I had measured
was from draugt Guiness bought at Murphy's Pub in Shampoo-Banana, IL.,
a long time ago).  All figures include the correction for my inaccurate
inaccurate hydrometer, so may be off by a little, but they are relatively
correct.  Guiness is not that light, by density standards, but it ain't
heavy, either.

So, no problem pouring a B&T on the Sam Adam's B&T, either with a
vigorous pour or with a careful pour.  Then I try pouring a B&T with
the Miller light, with the remainder of the Can, and it mixes.  Thinking
I was just a little too violent with the pour, I try doing it carefully.
The Guinness floated and formed a perfect layer on top, then, as soon as
the N2 had bubbled out of solution, little streaks of Guinnes started
sinking into the Miller Lite, until the whole thing was dark.  shit.

I know for a fact that it works with Leinenkugels!

Anyway, N2 does indeed help keep the Guinness on top while pouring the
B&T, and it does seems to be some pysical repulsion between the draught
Guinness and the other beer while the Guinness is foaming.  Once
denitrogenated, though, it will sink into a beer that is much less dense.
This leaves me wondering what will happen with a beer that is in the
~1.008 SG range.

BTW, Miller Lite makes a really terrible Black & Tan.

As far as the thread on the store owner using a bathroom scale to weigh
out grains goes:  Give the guy a break!  I remember a few years back,
the Weinkeller ran out of their usual 24 oz bottles, so was using 22 oz.
bottles, but was using the same label.  Not thinking (and just being
glad that they were selling their beer in bottles again, I mentioned this
on the HBD.  I don't know if a law enforcement official read it or not,
but sure enough, they got busted.  At least I mentioned the fact that
they shouldn't be doing this to the guy at the counter, so I can keep a
clear consience, but considering the fact that I like their beer, I should
have kept my trap shut.  There's no better way to get someone in trouble
than to advertise their crime over the internet.

bb


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:38:48 EDT
From: pbabcock.ford at e-mail.com
Subject: Re: N2 Nyyyyyaaaaaagggggghhhhhhh


Pat Babcock             Internet: pbabcock.ford at e-mail.com                      
VO Body Launch Specialist- PN150/1 EAP                                          
****>>>> PLEASE USE PF5 WHEN REPLYING TO THIS NOTE!!!! <<<<****                 
Subject: Re: N2 Nyyyyyaaaaaagggggghhhhhhh                                       

I said:                                                                         

  > "There are several theories as to why bubbles form in the first             
  > <SNIP>                                                                      
  > will nitrogen dissolve in beer? Any takers on the experiment?               

What I left out was that, under Henry's Law, if nitrogen dissolves in           
beer, it will do so whether the beer is carbonated or not. The partial          
pressure of nitrogen on either side of a permeable boundary will rush           
to equilibrium ("rush", in this sense is relative...). The question             
remains (in my pointed head, anyway) whether the beer/headspace                 
boundary is permeable to N2 on the beer side.                                   

Best regards,                                                                   
Patrick G. Babcock      PN150/1 Launch - Edison Assembly Plant                  
(908)632-5930 x5501     Route 1 South, Edison, NJ 08818-3018                    
Fax (908)632-4546              Page 800-SKY-PAGE PIN: 544-9187                  

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:44:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dckdog at aol.com
Subject: brew hiatus

Hmmmrph, I'm sitting here dreaming about my next brew adventure. I had an
arthroscopy and general clean up of a skateboard ruined right ankle two weeks
ago, damn my fearless youth. My two faithful labs are keeping me company and
my wife is my chauffer-no driving for another 4 weeks. I've done a partial
grain IPA and a pilsner along with a dark beer and a stout which were all
extract, any ideas for my next brew? I don't really favor fruit beers but
maybe a wheat would be a good guess, any experience with wheat extract brews?

Dean
(go Sabres!)

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 06:07:47 -0700
From: popeman at webtv.net (Tom Pope)
Subject: Care and Feeding of aCajun  Cooker

I have used cajun cookers for brewing for years. I had some problems
with soot, but found they were caused by debri in the jets or orifices
of the cooker. Usually, it was spider webs! Seems these  critters are
very fond of the cajun's contours for making a home. If you use a brush
or gas to blow out the gunk before you brew , soot buildup should not be
a problem. I have also found that  adjustable pressure regulators are a
big help in controlling flame color and flame temperature and size.
Tom Pope

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 08:10:23 -0500
From: Jim Herter <james.m.herter.1 at nd.edu>
Subject: Cajun Cookers

I added a $45 Cajun Cooker from Metal Fusion. Inc. to my brewing arsenal a
little over a year ago. I got it from Sam's Club, but most any larger retail
operation will carry them in the outdoor/garden/camping section. It wasn't
long after purchasing mine that I added it to my "must have" equipment list.
I think that many different lp gas cookers are called "Cajun." The one that
I own is a ring-style burner which more evenly distributes heat. I've heard
tales of the jet-style burners causing scorching and burning because they
concentrate the heat into a smaller area of the pot.

My cooker is rated at 170,00btu. I can bring 13 gallons of water to a boil
in an hour on a cold winter day. As far as scorching goes, the burner has an
adjustable orifice for controlling the gas/air ratio. If your brewing buddy
is getting soot, it's possible that the burner needs adjusted. You can
quickly see if it's out of calibration if the flame is predominantly
orange-yellow. It should be, for the most part, blue.
If there is too much air intake the result will be allot of carbon build up
and an inefficient heat source. This could be the soot problem source.

These cookers also have an inline needle valve that allows for pretty good
control of the flame. You can also open this valve all the way and use the
valve on the gas tank itself for control. I would not hesitate to advise you
to buy  the cooker that I have. There are probably other quality ones out
there - just make sure you get the ring-style burner.

Jim Herter - Business Manager
Notre Dame Food Services
219.631.0113


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 06:18:22 -0700
From: popeman at webtv.net (Tom Pope)
Subject: Got Beer?

I seem to recall reading an article  recently which stated that 60% of
beer sold in U.S. is under $2.99 a six pack, 30% sold is between $2.99
and  $3.99, and the rest is over $3.99. Of that remaining 10%, about 70
to 80% is imported. It seems like it will be a very long time, if ever,
until Joe six pack  is drinking up all the microbrews..Tom Pope

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:30:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rae Christopher J <3cjr7 at qlink.queensu.ca>
Subject: extract-specialty grains

ok, about two or three weeks ago i posted a question re: using extract and
specialty grains for swell brewing.  i received lotza advice, happily most
of it disagreeing with charlie pap's advice (good instructions, but a
little bird told me nothing is that simple).

so, here's a summary.
	1. despite common usage (at least around me) this is not a partial
mash.  
	2. crush the grains.  either zip-loc bag-em and use a rolling pin,
or get a mill.  i have since found out that my local homebrew shop will let
me use thier mill for free (they even offered to grind it for me!!), so i
strongly urge other new-to-grain brewers to inquire about that at their
local shops.
	3. to perform this well, take the grains, either in a grain bag or
not, and put them in the water.  raise the temperature to 149-168 F
(although most were 155-165, this was the total of all ranges).
Alternately, you raise the temp to 170, then drop the grains in, which
will cool the temp to an appropriate level.
	4. maintain this temp range, being careful not to get to 170F
(this will leach out astringent tannins-yuck, but "damage" occurs at
180F), for somewhere between 5 and one hour (though the most agreed
that 30 min is best).
	5. next, drain off the liquid (or liquor in charlie pap's
language), the sparge (pour) 0.5-2 gal hot (whatever temp you steeped at)
water through.   this step is controversial, with some sying it is
unneccesary, some saying it is absolutely vital, some saying it is a very
poor plan indeed.  
	6.  now, take all that yummy liquid and biol it up with the malt
extract and hops.  can i use the hops in the bag for ease of straining?
sure, but i'll need to add ~10% extra hops. 

so, thanks to all for the advice!  kudos to:
	j goldthwaite
	p brian
	m arnold
	p walsh
	d riedel
	s rogerson

ah, soon i shall brew again.... and brew well....
___________________________________________________________
This is Chris' signature:

C____ R__
    &%

 His home page is at http://qlink.queensu.ca/~3cjr7/














Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:48:26 -0400
From: lachina at mindspring.com (Lorne P. Franklin)
Subject: Access to Snob Micros

Steve Snyder says:
>Until the major breweries
>start making better, cheaper beer, Joe-Six-Pack won't drink them
>because he can't afford them. I know more than a couple of people that
>can't afford to drink Micros, even though they prefer them, they are
>just too expensive.

Hell, I can't afford to buy them!  Eight bucks for a six pack!  Get real.
The stuff is WAY overpriced, in my opinion.

Which is why I started brewing four years ago.  Now, I get 50 bottles of
beer that is as good as most micros, and sometimes exceptionally good, for
$12-15.  Let's see, $16 for twelve snob micros with mountain-laden labels,
or $15 for over two cases . . . hmmmm . . . what to do.


Lorne
Cleveland, OH



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:29:08 -0500
From: Glyn Crossno <Crossno at novell2.tn.cubic.com>
Subject: Beer in Whiskey Barrels

Goose Island brew pub, Chicago, had on tap at one time a beer aged in
Jim Beam barrels.  Very nice!

When I brew a barley wine could I secondary in a whiskey barrel?

Glyn Crossno
Estill Springs, TN
Crossno at novell2.tn.cubic.com
- --
But there were plane to catch,
And bills to pay ....


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:47:06 -0700
From: "Brander Roullett (Volt Computer)" <a-branro at MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: GOT BEER? Kegs for cheap?

Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:20:38 -0500
From: Rust1d <rust1d at usa.net>
Subject: Got Beer?

John Varady says....

I was just thinking last night about how the mirco industry needs to
form a
coalition much like the dairy industry. We could then be entertained by
cute
commercials about running out of beer at the least opportune moment.
Consumers should be aware of just what 'beer' is and can be. It would be
cool to see 30 seconds spots on tv about different beer styles.

I also have seen these commercials, and had a great idea for a spoof on
the "got milk" billboards with cute little kittens on it.  I am part of
a Medieval Recreation Society (sca) and we do wars and heavy fighting on
a regular basis.  i have a vision of lineing up some of the bigger boys
in armour, hot and sweaty from tourney field, growling into the camera
on a white background (like the billboards) with the suggested title
"Got Beer?"

On a seperate note, i would like to find sources for 3,5,10 gallon Corny
kegs for reasonably cheap.  my local HB store has one keg for $50 bucks.
i have heard of places that send them for $20 or better.  any one got
any good sources?

Brander (Badger) Roullett  badger at nwlink.com  a-branro at microsoft.com
Homepage:  	http://www.nwlink.com/~badger
Brewing: 	http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/badgbeer.html
Resume: 		http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/resume.html
- ----------------------In The SCA----------------------
Lord Frederick Badger of Amberhaven, TWIT, Squire to Sir Nicholaus
Red Tree Pursuivant-Madrone, An Tir  Marshal-College of St Bunstable

"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline--it
helps if you have some kind of football team, or some nuclear weapons,
but at the very least you need a beer."
                                       -- Frank Zappa


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 11:17:02 -0700
From: "Mark Bridges" <mbridges at coastnet.com>
Subject: Joe Average and the Brewpub

Pat has a good point - making quality beer more available to the public.  I
think the brewpub has another function to fulfill and that is the provision
of an environment conducive to the enjoyment of quality beers.

It was'nt very many years ago in my neck of the woods (and maybe yours as
well) that your choice of beer was extremely limited. Beer that had little
in the way of flavour or character, but was easily consumed in large
quantities.  Where you had to drink this was called a beer parlour - full
of smoke and often full of people drinking to excess which brings it's own
problems. (A few decades ago men and women even had separate entrances to
drinking establishments around my hometown)  And there were also a lot of
people who wouldn't mind going out for a beer, but did not wish to put up
with that sort of environment. 

Times are changing, and the brewpub can be a positive part of the
community, rather than simply "a bar".  My favorite brewpub has a clientele
whose age ranges from their early 20's to their 80's.  These people enjoy a
far less smoky establishment, much better food, and an enjoyably relaxed
atmosphere.  And this is an excellent place to bring Joe Average for his
first introduction to real beer.  I don't expect him to try the ESB, but
there is always something for him.  And of course the beer will taste
different to him, as it has not been  brewed with adjuncts, pasteurized, or
sterile filtered.  It may be his first recognizable taste of hops!  Wow!  

It may take decades, but Joe Average will learn to appreciate quality beer,
which will not be looked upon as "fancy", just simply "good beer".

Whoa, back to brewing.  My next batch will be a Belgian Ale, and I will use
Wyeast 3787 for the 1st time.  From this forum I have seen mentioned that
this strain is a prodigious top-cropper, and that banana esters may become
too noticable if fermented above 70 F.  Any other tips?  I'm brewing this
within the next 2 weeks.

Cheers,

Mark

Return to table of contents


Date: 18 Apr 97 14:57:48 EDT
From: aesoph at ncemt1.ctc.com (Aesoph, Michael)
Subject: New Recruit

Dear Collective:



	I have a friend in NJ that wants to become a home brewer.  Can anyone 
recommend a home brew store and perhaps a home brewer's guild in the area 
of Parsippany or Picatinny Arsenal???



==================================================

        Michael D. Aesoph                Associate Engineer

==================================================


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:40:19 -0500
From: Steve Zabarnick <steve at snake.appl.wpafb.af.mil>
Subject: Solubility of nitrogen

Pat Babcock asks:

>So, again:
>will nitrogen dissolve in beer? Any takers on the experiment?

Here are some literature values for solubility (ppm by mass) of nitrogen
and CO2 in water (close enough to beer for our purposes). These numbers
assume that the water is in a 100% nitrogen (or CO2) environment at one
atmosphere.

Temp (F)  Nitrogen Solubility  CO2 Solubility
               (ppm)                (ppm)
 77            18.4                 1640
 41            26.4                 2995
 32            29.7                 3565

Notice that the solubility of nitrogen is much lower (by about a factor of
100) than CO2.

Steve Zabarnick



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:21:32 -0400
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: Minnesota Beers

Erik says,

>Forget saving space, everyone should know about Sherlock's Home,
>in Minnetonka. At least 7 ales and lagers, in traditional english
>style, from the malt, to the cask conditioning, and not to mention
>hand pulled from the beer engines. They also have great food, too.

While I agree Sherlock's Home has very good food, I cannot concur about
the beers.  I go there often when in Minneapolis on business and I find
their beers very inconsistent.  Sometimes it's very good.  But many
times it way below good.  On a recent trip there, every one of their
beers was overly asstringent as if they had some systematic problem in
temperature/pH/sparge control.  Whereas I've found Summit to be very
consistent and enjoyable.  If Sherlock's Home were to get control of
their processes it could indeed be excellent.  But just serving poor
beer at 52oF does not make it good.

Dave Houseman

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:39:00 -0500
From: Rob Kienle <rkienle at interaccess.com>
Subject: Counter Pressure Filler Recs

Does anyone have a recommendation for the best/easiest to use Counter
Pressure filler (besides yet another trip to Home Depot to build my
own!)? Hoptech has a pretty inexpensive model that boasts an "automated"
adjustable pressure relief valve, which on other models seems mostly
"un"-automated but also usually has a hose attached to it which makes me
wonder if the feature on this model is more like a pressure relief
"spray." 

- -- 
Cheers4beers,
Rob Kienle
Chicago, IL
rkienle at interaccess.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 17:44:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: DJBrew at aol.com
Subject: SRM conversion to EBC

I've seen many post for people want infomation to convert SRM into EBC or
vise versa. First, SRM = Lovibond.

Here's the formula.

SRM = ( EBC x 0.375 ) + 0.46

EBC = ( SRM - 0.46 ) / 0.375

So a 20 lovibond crystal malt is equal to a 52 EBC crystal malt, at least in
color.

Hope this is helpfull.

Dan Soboti

Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:42:17 +1000 (EST)
From: Charlie Scandrett <merino at buggs.cynergy.com.au>
Subject: "Phenols" and stuff that ain't stuff

Dave Burley wrote
>Al K wrote
>>2. Polyphenol extraction is a necessary evil.  Charlie Scandrett suggests
>>Crushing less and making do with poorer yield to minimise polyphenol and
>>Silicate extraction. 

>I was puzzled by Charlie's comment on this. Surely the size of the husk
>could have no effect on the extraction of phenols since the husk is so
>thin.  I have noticed that when I give a second pass through the mill that
>many crushed malt particles are released from the husk.  This could expose
>more of the husk to fluid from both sides, but I still think it is a
>stretch.

I am always puzzled by brewers' tendency to lump all parts of a chemical
class together as though they were the same, beers aren't. The logical
fallacy of summation and division is best refuted in the advertising
expression, "oils ain't oils". (sophistry sometimes contains a kernel of truth)

Phenols ain't phenols and husks ain't husks either.

Beer has a complex mixture of phenolic compounds from about 150 mg/l to 350
mg/l in concentration. About 2/3 are malt derived and 1/3 hop derived. They
fall into two broard (some say "vague"!) categories, a)the semi-volatile
Monophenols (phenolic acids, alcohols and amines) and Monomeric phenols
(flavonoids, anthocyanogens, catechins and flavanols) and b)the non-volatile
condensed Dimeric and Polymeric phenols (polymers of the above).

The volatile phenols are aroma active compounds and originate from raw
materials, processing and yeast fermentation. e.g. Ferulic acid from barley
is reduced by Bavarian wheat yeasts to the prized aromatic Vinyl Phenol,
4-vinylguaiacol. Residual chlorine from water or sanitisers can combone with
simple phenols to produce the medicinal aroma of the Chlorophenols with very
low thresholds (<1 microG/litre). Wild yeasts and bacteria will also preduce
undesirable phenolic aromas. It is thought that during boiling some Phenolic
Acids are decarboxylated to flavour active compounds which are oxidized to
the corresponding aldehydes. 4-hydroxycinnamic acid is a suspect here.
Phenolic aroma compounds seem to fall into the desirable Floral range, or
the undesirable Ethereal range.

Amomg the larger condensed phenols, Al Korzonas has correctly picked up that
it is not only *polyphenols* that are the problem, but *oxidisable
polyphenols*. The simpler phenolic molecules are more polar, i.e. their
relatively simple structure has more pronounced spots of unbalanced charges,
they are electrically dipolar. Without going into detail, polar molecules
are very soluble and in fact, the vast majority of all phenolic compounds
are extracted with the first runnings! There are not many of these in hops.

Eventually they will all complex into polyphenols under acid conditions and
oxidise and complex with protein into haze. However good beer doesn't last
long enough for this to happen significantly, it gets harvested.

The real problem is the existing small fraction of less polar, i.e. more
complex and large, polyphenols. Many fingers have been pointed at Cetechines
(flavan-3-ols) and Anthocyanogens (flavan-3,4 diols) and especially their
polymers. However some well known brewing lawyers claim that, while not
exactly innocent, they are no more guilty than the rest of the population.
(a new  defense?) 

As you would have guessed by now, the polyphenols are not so soluble and if
dissolved by higher pH water, are repulsed by the polar medium they are in.
They thus tend to floc together like friends in a hostile crowd (hydrophobic
force)and with catalysts like metal ions and oxygen, complex with other
large molecules fairly quickly. This is the unsightly but essentially
tasteless so-called "tannin-protein haze". (it actually contains many other
components of the wort). The protein neutralizes the tanning power of
tannoids, because these, on their own, have a definite dry astringent taste! 

The oxidized polyphenols with tanning power (MWt 700-1000) are called
"tannoids" (or tannigens) and they try to turn your taste buds into leather.
They do this by covalently crosslinking proteins in your taste buds as they
do in tanning leather and forming haze. They were not intended to do this,
they actually seem to be in the *"husk fraction"* (my emphasis) as an
astringent inhibitor of fungal and bacterial attack on the barley corn.

The oxidized polyphenols in sweet wort will *readily complex out* as hot
break. Despite their size, they are a *first and middle runnings* extraction
problem and are best controlled by recycling wort through the hot break in
the grain bed, or vigorous boiling to form hot break during the boil. 

The unoxidized, *oxidizable* polyphenols are less soluble and a *late
runnings problem* and a large portion can survive into the hopped wort,
waiting for oxygen so as to cause haze and astringency problems by becoming
Tannoids.

The "husk fraction" in brewing literature includes the True Leafy Husk and
the bits of *fused-on* Pericarp/Testa & Aleurone layer. Many of the
problematic polyphenols in the True Leafy Husk of malt have been leeched out
during repeated steeping. However there are also high concentrations of
problematic polyphenols in the Pericarp/Testa and Aleurone layers. These are
some of the least modified (enzymically broken down) parts of the malt corn
and contain the least extract. As least modified, they are thus more likely
to remain as big bits in a coarse crush. 

The sparge process removes extract from *between* and from *within* the
kibble of the grain bed. The osmotic leaching process of removing extract
(of anything soluble) from *within* bits is slowed down if the bits are big.
The solvent (water) simply has further to penetrate. 

If the big bits are the "husk fraction",i.e. low in fermentable extract,
high in oxidizable polyphenols, then THIS IS A "GOOD THING"! (my emphasis) 

If the big bits happen to be starchy Endosperm bits, then advanced
gelatinization of starch for better extract of sugar IS A "GOOD THING"! (my
emphasis)

Crush coarse, gelatinise well!

Charlie (Brisbane, Australia)





Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 19:09:36 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Casks,

Brewsters:

As soon as I pushed the button I knew I hadn't completed my discussion of
oak casks. I wanted to say something about Porter/stale beer. Others have
gratefully provided additional refining input which I summarize here.

Jim Liddil  sent me to his website www.U. Arizona.Edu/~jliddil to look at
pictures of yeasts and bacteria inside pieces of wood that had been soaked
in lambic beer and traditional ciders. I would have preferred it if the
blocks had had their ends sealed to prevent easy access of the
microorganisms.  Jim assures me that even barrel staves show this
contamination internally, but agrees with me that for brief normal beer
storage, microorganism this deep in the wood probably do not pose a
contamination problem relative to those on the surface. Although this
wasn't the point I was making, it demonstrates that wood is an excellent
source of contamination and has the ability to carry it forward into future
brews. The cracks between the staves ( even though the barrel has been
"disinfected", are difficult to clean and provide the source for
contamination. 

This is exactly what is wanted in these products and also in the Belgian
Red Ales, like Rodenbach as Dave Hinkle points out.  Michael Jackson in his
Beer Companion points out that these red ales are aged in "unlined" casks,
thereby implying that other beers are aged or at least stored in "lined"
casks, such as De Clerk points out.  Lining of casks was therefore used for
beers that one didn't want to get sour from contamination in the wood of
the cask.

It is potentially conceivable that in the Olde days, unlined casks for
short term British beers that were fermented in say 5 days, kegged and sent
to the pub could have been drunk in a few days and would have been OK. 
This would have required the beer to have been highly hopped, high in
alcohol content and kept cool. All possible, if beer deliveries were local.
 However, even if the casks were new, a short stay like this would hardly
have time for the beer to pick up oakiness.  The major number of casks were
not new.

 .As I commented above, I also thought of the old Porter/Stale beer which
was likely stored in un-lined casks so it would stale quicker. Also as you
may know Breweries tended to use larger and larger casks and this would
minimize the surface volume ratio and perhaps prolong the life of the beers
in the absence of sanitation.

My point in this whole discussion is that is unlikely you will get much
from your effort even if you were to go to  get and use wooden casks. Of
course, there is nothing to prevent you from using sterilized oak chips (
boil for 20 minutes in water and use the water as well as the chips, or
pressure cook for 10 minutes at 15 lbs - preferred) to give your beer an
oakey taste.  Start at around 4 ounces/5 gallons for a subtle taste in one
of your big hoppy nosed IPA's.


Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  
Voice e-mail OK 

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 07:14:40 -0400
From: "David Root" <droot at concentric.net>
Subject: Krausen that would not die

Charlie says his krausen won't die

Ale yeast is top fermenting and I think  you have a yeast cake on top.  
I ferment in
a 
1/2 keg with a 12" hole cut in the top.  I ferment at cool temps for the
yeast
and when fermentetion is complete, I draw the beer out from under the
yeast through a drain cock in the bottom.  All I have left is the yeeast
when I 
am done.  This works great with 1007 german ale yeast.  I don't want the 
yeast cake to fall back into the beer. When I rack, the beer is clear and 
I don't need a choreboy, or have to siphon.

David Root  Droot at concentric.net  Lockport NY

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 23:57:17 -0400
From: Chris King <king1679 at medic41.com>
Subject: Oak

This info may be based on old info. They use to only use French oak for 
wine because when the people used french oak to make a cask it was for 
wine. And when the Wineries from the USA tried to use cask made in the 
states they had poor results because they where using cask that were for 
the distillers or being made by people who had no experience in making 
cask for wine use. 
Since then there are plenty of cask being made in the US with wood grown 
here and they make great wine out of this. Some still like to argue that 
French Oak is worth the expense most most will agree that it has more to 
do with how it is treated then where it was grown.

"I was just reading (I think) Michael Jackson who opined that the oak in
the US is not of the right sort (?). Something like too many tannins "

Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 05:51:05 -0400
From: "Lorena Barquin Sanchez" <mbarquin at telcel.net.ve>
Subject: Stainless Steels

Gentlemen:
I would like to know which are the grades of stainless steel most suitable
for brewing. 
Also besides the grades, I was asked if I wanted sanitary ss or regular ss.
 I was initially told that sanitary ss means that besides the grade, these
ss are surface polished.  Can anyone please tell me where is the truth in
all of this?

Thank you
Lorenzo Barquin
Maracay,Venezuela

Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 13:37:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: DGofus at aol.com
Subject: Re: Mini Kegs

I have a few questions for the collective. Iam a newbie, extract brewer. I
have 7 batches under my belt ( over my belt is more like it : (   ).
Questions are 1.) has anybody tried the mini keg sytems? , and are they a
good investment? 2.) I am using bleach to sanitize....Okay or not. I have
heard varying ideas, some say good others say the worst thing that I can be
doing. 3.) What kind of beer or recipe can I make for guests and friends that
do not share a passion for good beers....you all know the ones- That beer is
too dark, or that is too bitter, do you have coors light(egad). 
Help!

thanks in advance
private E-mail okay

Bob Fesmire
Pottstown, PA
Madman Brewery
Dgofus at aol.com

Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 16:59:59 -0400
From: Dave Bartz <gbrewer at iquest.net>
Subject: DME/LME conversion, using hot tap water, shop scales, King

Brew dudes and dudettes:

Bob Tisdale wrote:
>>I recently cooked up a batch of pale ale using 5 lbs of Laglander Dry Malt
Extract.  According to the formula, lbs of DME X 1.8 = lbs of LME, I used 9
lbs of LME.  However, the O.G. was only 1.042!  Can anyone explain what
happenned?<<

The formula for converting DME to its in LME is actually the DME amount
divided by .8, since most LME is 20 percent water.  If you used 9lbs of LME
in a 5 gallon recipe, your O.G. def. should have been higher than 1.042.  Is
it possible the wort was not thoroughly mixed, thus resulting in a diluted
sample?  Is your hyrdrometer accurate? (Test in plain water).

Paul Niebergall says:
>>What goes into your hot water heater, generally comes out.  There is nothing
to be afraid of.  If anything, inorganics precipitate out in your water
heater (that's why it's caked with crud).<<

I would have to agree with Paul.  To save time, I have consistently use hot
tap water in my brewing procedures, from a 12 yr. old water heater, with no
perceived negative effects,  It is a cause for concern though, and anyone
with empirical evidence please come forward.

Rick Olivo continues his discussion of scales at hbrew shops with:
>>This is NOT asking too much; it is in fact a moral as well as legal
obligation that any commercial operation bears to their customer. A
certified scale or at the very least, a scale that is checked with a
reference weight frequently is, in my view,
a cost of doing business, not an option.<<
   
Rick is right.  A scale that is legal for trade only has to have a 3000 unit
capacity e.g. can measure up to 3000 grams, oz centigrams or whatever.  We
have used one since our inception and any serious homebrew retailer who is
looking out for their customer's beer should have an one as well (for both
legal and ethical reasons).  They are not that expensive. $150 or so.

MaltyDog at aol.com posts:

>>Now that the weather's starting to get nice (sort of, anyway), I'm thinking
about brewing outside, and I am considering getting a Cajun Cooker for
outdoor brewing. A friend of mine, who is a very good brewer, told me that he
had a lot of problems with cooking with them, though, especially with soot,
and scorching beneath the cooker. Is this a common difficulty with these
devices? Is there anything special you have to do with them to avoid this?
Are there any particular models that are more highly recommended?<<

Because your typical King Kooker/Cajun Cooker puts out 200,000 BTU's, which
can bring 12 gallons of liquid to a boil in a half hour to 45 minutes, there
is a good deal of carbon residue that will end up on the bottom of your
kettle.  The easiest way to counteract this is by covering the bottom of
your kettle with a film of liquid dish soap.  Then, after your done brewing,
the carbon will wipe right off.  
Personally, I don't use this technique simply because this soot on the
bottom of a converted 1/2bbl keg kettle has not been a big deal. Since its
my brewing kettle and nothing else, I figure it will always have some soot
on the bottom so so what.
The conveinance and utility of the cooker is def. worth a little soot.
Actually gives it some character. 
 
Dave Bartz
The Gourmet Brewer
"Beer is good" -5000 BC


Return to table of contents