---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Silicone tubing + Cleaning out keg lines/keg (jazztone)
  Malta ("Lorena Barquin Sanchez")
  kegs (John_E_Schnupp)
  Ibu ("MASSIMO FARAGGI")
  SPAM infections on the HBD (short!) (dbrigham)
  Bottling with tons of sediment ("Schultz, Steven W.")
  Re: Classic American Bock?? (Jeff Renner)
  re:Grolsch Hops (Denis Barsalo)
  Inverted Carboy Fermenter: Progress Report PT1 ("Kim Lux")
  Inverted Carboy Fermenter: Progress Report PT2 ("Kim Lux")
  Spam, spam, spam, spam (PAUL W HAAF JR)
  Southern Beer Adventures,Michelob PA,Carbonator, Non-alcohol beer ("David R. Burley")
  Underfill/overcarbonation, whole leaf hops, sake ("David R. Burley")
  Harvesting yeast from primary (Andrew E Howard)
  Force Carbonating at Room Temp.... (Volt Computer)" <a-branro at MICROSOFT.com>
  Bottle Headspace (Aaron Kelley)
  Ascorbic acid and HSA (George De Piro)
  Stoves ("Kirk Harralson")
  mushrooms and beer (Mench5)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 00:03:43 EDT
From: jazztone at juno.com
Subject: Silicone tubing + Cleaning out keg lines/keg

Hello all...

A LONG time back I posted a message about hooking up my phil-chill
counterflow chiller to the copper racking cane.  A couple people sent
replies stating that I can use silicone tubing to do the trick...Does
anyone know where I might be able to purchase like 3 feet of that tubing?
(Not vinyl, Silicone!)....If anyone knows of any mail-order spots or if
someone wants to sell me a small amount, that would be GREATLY
appreciated....I've been looking for this stuff forever....Basically, all
I need is some FOOD-GRADE tubing that can stand up to boiling temps
without imparting any flavor to the brew...

Lastly, I was looking for some good advice on how/what to clean my corny
keg and beer lines with between uses.  Mine has been sitting there
(including hoses) since the last batch without cleaning..Should I soak
the hoses, or are they shot?...

Thanks very much for the responses!

Chris Brown
 -Berkeley, CA

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Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 23:56:44 -0400
From: "Lorena Barquin Sanchez" <mbarquin at telcel.net.ve>
Subject: Malta

Gentlemen:

Malta is a drink that is trully considered food in Venezuela.  In the past
years, even the sales price of Malta has been controlled by the government
because it is thought that Malta contributes to the general health of the
population. It is highly consumed in the Caribbean (Puerto Rico), the
Dominican Republic, and Florida.
Malta La India is a Puerto Rican trade mark, and Malta Goya is a Florida
trade mark.
Breweries is Venezuela make malta for local consumption under the same name
as their main beers (Polar, Regional, Brahma, and Caracas) and they also
make malta for the export market (Puerto Rico, Florida, Cuba).
Malta is a non alcoholic drink, it is basically a wort with sugar added and
artificially carbonated.  I will get more detail information as to how it
is made and will post it as soon as I have it ready.  The truth is that as
homebrewers in Veneezuela, we intend to make the beers that are inaccesible
to us, and since malta is not the case for us, we do not have details as to
how it is made.  Next week I should have more info.  In the meantime,
please be patient.
Regards,
Lorenzo

PD:  Charlie, please tell us in which issue will the information on plate
heat exchanger will appear.


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Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 22:28:06 -0700
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: kegs





I guess the little engineer (field service) in me makes
me tend to over engineer problems.  I am also somewhat of
a destructive person and I like to drill, cut, grind and
otherwise mutilate things.  It would appear that I missed
some obvious and much more simple solutions.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Colchester, VT
john_e_schnupp at amat.com



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Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 02:13:27 PDT
From: "MASSIMO FARAGGI" <maxfarag at hotmail.com>
Subject: Ibu

My $ 0.02 on this mini-thread regarding IBU formulas.
I too was surprised (as Jason was) to see the shape of the curves 
you can deduce from Rager tables, I was expecting an exponential 
flattening with time as per Tinseth formulas. But I can try to 
explain Rager tables by thinking that you should read them 
"backwards" in some way. That is, if you consider for instance the 
value for 10 minutes, nobody is usually boiling his hops for just 
10 minutes then stop and switch off the burner, but the 10 minutes
refer to (aroma) hops added at the end of the boil, so the wort is
already hopped by other hops added before and the IBU already 
extracted *could* affect the utilization of these last hops. 
Besides,the wort at the end of the boil is more concentrated (--> 
less hop utilization) and there could be other factors that I can't
see, but maybe Rager tables try to take into account empirically 
these factors.
You can also explain in this way why the table doesn't start with 
zero utilization at time=0, because if you are referring to "0 
minutes before end of boil"  and you are adding aroma hops at this 
stage, you are getting some utilization as the wort is cooling down
before you take the hops away (or take the wort away from the hops).
I hope could explain it well, it's not easy in a foreign language. 
The above are only *speculations* because I really can't say which 
utilization formula is better; I use Rager values, but only since 
the last 5 batches,  and one should change all the variables (full 
vs.partial boils, time, wort OG ecc) to check which of the formulas
is the most accurate. If you just change type and quantity of hops
but brew always with same techniques, similar hops schedules and
beer gravities, you are not affecting utilizations and so any 
formula can be calibrated to your taste (maybe with a scale factor)
and seems to work. 
BTW, I use this equation (from Pyle's hop FAQ) to approximate Rager
tables:

                       t-31.32
U(t)=18.11+13.86*tanh (-------)
                        18.27

which approximate the table values from 0 to 45 min  then starts to
flatten a bit. 
Cheers
Max
Massimo Faraggi       GENOVA - ITALY
maxfarag at hotmail.com

- ---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Date: Wed, 21 May 97 07:50:24 EST
From: dbrigham at nsf.gov
Subject: SPAM infections on the HBD (short!)

    Just a quick note - I am on many Internet digests/mailing lists
    (all technical and job related of course!) and I must say that the
    HDB is the most 'SPAM free' of all of them.

    I congradulate everyone involved in the tough decisions and
    actions required to ensure our enjoyment and use of the HBD and at
    the same time trying to keep unrelated material from appearing.
    You guys are doing a great job!!!

    Thanks!!!

    Dana Brigham                        ...As he brews, so shall he
    National Science Foundation         drink.
    dbrigham at nsf.gov                    Ben Johnson  1573-1637


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Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 09:12:41 -0400
From: "Schultz, Steven W." <swschult at CBDCOM-EMH1.APGEA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Bottling with tons of sediment

Last night I bottled what is hoped to be a Bohemian Pilsner.  I bottled
straight from the primary, which is not my normal style, and when
racking the beer from the carboy to the bottling bucket, a lot of the
garbage on the bottom got stirred up and made its way into the bottling
bucket.  Had it been earlier in the evening, I would have let it sit in
the bottling bucket for an hour, then racked (via the spigot) into
another bottling bucket, thus leaving some of the sediment behind.  But
I didn't.  

This morning, the bottles had the amount of sediment in them that you'd
expect after a couple of weeks, and when the priming solution ferments
there will be even more.  Is this likely to affect the flavor, and if
so, how?  What about shelf life?  (At bottling, the beer tasted good,
and at this point my concept is to make this beer disappear as soon as
it is drinkable.)  Thanks in advance for any answers provided.

Steve Schultz

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Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 09:48:24 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Classic American Bock??

In Homebrew Digest #2423 (May 21, 1997), lheavner at tcmail.frco.com (Lou
Heavner) wrote:

>     I have been intrigued with the classic American Pilsener promoted by
>     Jeff Renner.  Down here in Texas, we have a popular little beer called
>     Shiner Bock.  It is made with a fair portion of corn, or so I am told.
>     I have many friends who like it better than the standard commercial
>     beers.  Is this the unique effort of that little brewery in Shiner, or
>     is it a style waiting to be discovered like CAP?  It is pretty far
>     down on my list, but someday I will create a bock recipe with 20% or
>     so corn and domestic ingredients as much as possible.  Any comments or
>     suggestions from the audience??

I haven't tasted Shiner Bock, but there are other examples of this style
such as Huber.  Judging from other traditional American bocks, I'd guess
that Shiner's is probably not of real German bock strenth, maybe 1.050
maximum.  There was a Zymurgy article a few years ago on American Bocks
that listed a number of them and their ingredients and strength, but I
can't seem to find it (it isn't the 1987 issue with a goat on the cover - I
checked).

I've made a few other Euro-American styles using corn.  My latest was a
reduced gravity (1.044, it was a party beer) Graf-style Vienna adapted from
Fix's book using 20% corn.  (I also cheated due to time constraints and
fermented it with a clean but not neutral ale yeast, NCYC 1187 from YCKC).
This turned out great - very smooth, easy drinking, but with real character
from the malts and noble hops.  I made a 1/4 bbl. for a pizza party
(Jackson says he thinks Vienna is the best beer to go with pizza) and for
my son's graduation open house.  It was very popular with everybody, from
frat boys to their parents, a homebrewer who happened by to pick up some
malt, and with the Ann Arbor Brewers' Guild - I took the last quart to the
last meeting.

I also made a Bavarian-American dunkel last year.  Again, classic recipe
but with 20% corn.  I also used Durst Munich malt and some Durst dark
crystal.  That really gives those melanoidins without decotion mashes.
You'd never mistake it for a Reinheitsgebot beer, but it was great.

German-American lager brewers of the mid 19th to mid 20th Centuries made a
wide variety of German styles using corn and other adjuncts, including
Weiss(!).  Classic American Pilsner is just one of them, although it was
probably the biggest selling style and is virtually the only one that
survives today, albeit in a greatly diminished state.

Regard our having been spammed, I think it is entirely appropriate for
every HBD reader who was offended by this to write and tell the spammer so.
The address is owl at owlsnest.com, and the subject was "Is Your Web Site A
Secret?"  Does anyone know how to find out the true service provider for
owlsnest and complain?  Maybe we have a couple of really big homebrewers in
the Brewster, NY area who'd like to visit this clown at his office and
convey our feelings personally. ;-)

Jeff



 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu



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Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 09:53:23 -0500
From: Denis Barsalo <denisb at cam.org>
Subject: re:Grolsch Hops

Mark Tomusiak asked if anyone knew what hops are used in Grolsch beers.

	Well, I don't know for sure but in Dave Line's book:"Brewing Beers
Like Those You Buy", he uses nothing but Hallertauer. I have a Grolsch
recipe that I plan to brew real soon (tomorrow?) and I'm going to use
nothing but Hersbrucker (Hallertauer). BTW, I've never tasted the amber,
just the lager. That's the one I'm trying to re-create. I'll let you know
how it turns out.

Denis




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Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 08:06:06 -0700
From: "Kim Lux" <lux at cadvision.com>
Subject: Inverted Carboy Fermenter: Progress Report PT1

Part 1 of 2

With respect to my previous posts in HBD regarding an inverted carboy
fermentor; for those of you that were following my posts, I have the
following
progress report:


1) I went shopping for a valve and fittings to attach to the neck of my
carboy.

I spent some time in a warehouse style home supply store searching for
fittings, etc to attach to the neck of my carboy. 

After much thought and consideration I decided to mount a 1" quarter turn
valve instead of the 3/4" that I previously spoke of. 

I bought a 1 " valve, and a 1 foot piece of 1" copper pipe.  Both ends on
the valve are designed to accept solder in 1" copper pipe.   Total cost
roughly C$8.  (I will use some aquarium and food safe silicone sealant that
I already have at home.) 

 (See point #3 for what I did with this stuff.)  


2) I went shopping for a drill bit to cut a hole in the bottom of my
carboy.

I eventually bought an 1+ 3/8" (inch and three eighths) ceramics tile drill
bit. This cost me C$26. (Looks like a hole saw, but with carbide on the
edge of the large bit.) 

3) I attached the valve to my carboy.

Before I proceeded to cut a hole in the bottom, I wanted to make sure that
I could reliably attach the valve to the neck to seal the to-be bottom ! (A
vessel with a hole in each end is rather worthless !) 

When I was in the supply store, I began test fitting various plumbing
combinations and discovered that the inside diameter or my carboy neck was
1.125 and the outside of a 1" copper pipe is just a shade smaller,
sometimes. (One end of the pipe would go into the neck and the other
wouldn't due to elongation during the cutting process.) 

To mount the valve, I did the following:

a) cut a 1.5" piece of 1" copper pipe. (When inserted in the valve end,
about 3/4" of pipe remains protruding to go into the carboy neck.) 

b) soldered the pipe into one side of the valve. (I made sure the pipe was
cut square and that it was inserted all the way into the valve so that
there is no gap between the pipe end and the valve body to catch and hold
crud and bacteria.) 

(Tip: Observe which way the quarter turn valve must rotate in order to
clear the carboy: my lever moves down to open and is parallel with the
floor when closed.) 

(Tip: Do not overheat the valve body or the teflon seal may be ruined.) 

(Tip: Do not apply an excess of solder or let it run on the outside of the
pipe or it will no longer fit into the carboy neck. I controlled my solder
flow and direction by using a flat bladed screwdriver to direct it.  I
placed the valve body in my sop vice and soldered the pipe in from the
top.) 

c) applied silicone sealant to the inside of the pipe where it joined the
valve body. (I think this is optional.) 

d) applied a layer of silicone to the first 3/4" of inside the carboy neck.
 
e) inserted the pipe valve assembly into the carboy neck until the valve
was touching the top of the carboy. 

f) placed a bead of silicone around the circumference of the joint between
the carboy and the valve body.

g) let the silicone dry overnight.

At the end of this proceedure, I had a valve firmly attached to the neck of
the carboy via a 1" copper pipe nipple. The nipple was soldered into the
valve body and siliconed into the neck of the carboy.  Additionally, the
valve body itself is sealed to the carboy neck lip with a bead of silicone
sealant. 

IMHO, the joint is solid. Before sealing, the pipe fit my carboy quite
tightly.  When the pipe/valve assembly was fitted in my carboy, the valve
was able to rock back and forth about an eighth of an inch as measured on
its outlet. There was no visible side to side play.  When the silicone
dried, everything became rock solid.  

To test, I filled the carboy with warm water and inverted it. I saw no
evidence of leaking from either the joint or the valve, even when left
overnight.  Time will tell if it will continue to hold. 

On the downside,  it is not possible to conveniently remove the valve from
the carboy. 

Why did I chose the 1" valve ?  

i) it fit well with the 1" pipe which fit well with the carboy. 

ii) bigger the valve, the better the flushing action. 

iii) able to drain large particles. 

With respect to point # ii above, a quick flick of the valve lever dumps
about a cup of material from the bottom of the carboy in an instant. I
think this will be very useful for moving stubborn trub. The valve can
still be throttled back to produce slower flows. 

Continued in Part 2

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 08:06:09 -0700
From: "Kim Lux" <lux at cadvision.com>
Subject: Inverted Carboy Fermenter: Progress Report PT2

Part 2 of 2

With respect to my previous posts in HBD regarding an inverted carboy
fermentor; for those of you that were following my posts, I have the
following
progress report: (continued from Part 1) 


4) I drilled a hole in the bottom of my carboy. 

This was the work that scared me the most as I had about C$42 riding on the
line; the supply store would not allow me to return the bit once I had
opened it and there was a good chance I might wreck a carboy during the
drilling process. C$26 + C$16 = C$42.

I began by removing the centering bit from the hole saw assembly. (The
centering bit on my cutter was 1/4" diameter.) I proceeded to attempt to
drill a pilot hole in the center of the base of my carboy.  I used a 3/8"
1800 RPM drill.  I went slowly for the first minute or two (600 RPM ?) and
sped up to full speed. I stopped every minute to feel the temperature of
the glass that I was drilling. I periodically cooled the bit by dunking it
in a glass of water. I WORE SAFETY GLASSES AND GLOVES.  I did not push too
hard on the drill for fear of breaking the glass or creating too much heat
and cracking it. I held the carboy on my workbench by pushing the carboy
neck up against the wall on the back of the bench and placing a board on
either side to pevent it from rolling from side to side.  I placed a large
ex towel now rag under the carboy in case it shattered and to collect any
drilling particles.   

It took forever (10 minutes) to get a 1/4" into the bottom of the carboy.
The drilling was very noisy. The carboy never got hot or even very warm to
my touch.  I was afraid I would break through with the pilot bit and wreck
something, so I stopped drilling at this point. 

I attached the hole saw and set the pilot so that the hole saw could go
about 1/8" into the glass before the pilot would bottom out.  Cutting with
the hole saw was much more aggressive and faster than with the pilot bit.
(I used a 6 Amp, 600 RPM 1/2" drill to turn the hole saw bit.) Once
started, I ran pretty much wide open. It took about 2 minutes to cut the
first 1/8" I then readjusted the pilot bit and cut another 1/8" I removed
the pilot bit altogether and cut without it. After 20 minutes or so, I had
my hole completed, with no cracks or visible damage to the carboy.  (I
checked the temperature of the glass as I drilled; like before, nothing
became hot, except for the bit.)

Just before the bit broke throught the bottom of the carboy, a 1/16" layer
of glass chipped (peeled) away from most of the peripheral of the hole out
about 1/2".

I tried chipping and filing any loose glass away from the edges of the
hole; there was none. 

The cut is not sharp at all or anywhere. It is quite uniform in diameter
and direction.  (1.370" diameter)

The glass in the bottom of my carboy was 0.598" thick.

I now had a hole for which to attach an airlock to the top of my inverted
carboy fermentor. 
  

5) I built a stand to hold my carboy (inverted) 

I build a stand from 0.5" birch plywood to hold by carboy in the inverted
position.  The stand measures 16" high, 11" wide and 14" deep.  It is built
like a box missing its bottom and front faces. The top face has a 6"
diameter hole cut in it to receive the neck of the carboy. (I can insert
and remove the carboy while keeping the valve closed.)   When the carboy is
in place, there is about 8" of clearance beneath the valve. 

The two sides have handles so that the stand and carboy can be lifted and
moved as one unit.  My goal is to place the inverted carboy in the stand
and never remove it again. (But I can if I want to !  :-))   



Where To From Here ? 

At this point I now have an inverted carboy fermentor, ready for use, minus
anything to ferment in it.  I plan to use it, obviously, and when I do, I
will report as to how it works. I originally said that I would refrain from
brewing until fall; I may break my promise as our weather looks more like
winter than summer these days.  I will keep the group informed. 

I took pictures of everything, and will post them when I set up my personal
web site later this fall. 

I have developed some other ideas and accessories for the inverted carboy
fermentor. I will be testing and sharing these as well.

I would like to thank everyone for their input into the project.  

Kim Lux




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Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:23:16 EDT
From: haafbrau1 at juno.com (PAUL W HAAF JR)
Subject: Spam, spam, spam, spam

Pardon my ignorance, I am new to this, but what is SPAM?
It sounds bloody awful.  How do I avoid stepping in it?

Don't worry, be Hoppy!
Paul Haaf
haafbrau1 at juno.com

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Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:19:10 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Southern Beer Adventures,Michelob PA,Carbonator, Non-alcohol beer

Brewsters:

Well, I had a great time travelling the mid-South states for two weeks wi=
th
my British buddy.  We visited brewpubs  where possible ( which was most
places) as well as all the major points of interest.  I have to say that =
I
am encouraged by the ubiquitousness of the establishments, but not so by
the trend of bland all-taste-alike brews at most places.  Too much
chocolate malt ( especially in "stout")  and crystal malt, no water
treatment and one yeast per establishment usually 1056 or its look-alike,=

unfortunately produces drinkable, but not-worth-the-price bland beer. Kin=
d
of the Budmilloors of the brewpubs with different colors.  I fear a
disappointment arising across the US and encourage all you professional
brewers to heed a warning and take a lesson from the best brewpub I
visited.

My favorite by far was the Crescent City Brew Pub in New Orleans, across
the street and just down the block from the Cafe Du Monde in the French
Market Area.  Brewer Lenz is German and  trained at Weihenstephan and
produces really excellent German beers. Pilsner is really lagered as are
the Vienna, Munich and Doppelbock styles.  His hefeweiss  was terrific wi=
th
fruit ( my buddy said apple) up front and a nice cloviness at the end.  I=
n
short, the beers were distinctive, brewed with different yeasts typical o=
f
the style,  as they should be. Perfectly carbonated for each style. Our
young, dark-eyed Cajun waitress ( although never having brewed herself) =

was highly knowledgable of the brewing process since all the staff attend=
s
a weekly beer class by Lenz. It was refreshing to get real answers to
questions instead of  "I Dunno", which is common in  most brewpubs.  I
highly recommend this brewpub if you are ever in the Big Easy and suggest=

that brewpub owners take a lesson if you want to be in the business longe=
r
than a couple of years.
- --------------------------------------------------------
I came across a Michelob Pale Ale in  Knoxville area and had to try it (
especially since the cooler only had every variety of Bud and nothing
else).  The label said hopped with Saaz, Mt. Hood, Tettnanger and
dry-hopped with Saaz.  Sure sounds like a real pale ale!! {:^ ), just the=

wrong types of hops completely .  I can guarantee that it was not a top
fermenting yeast either. It contained barley malt and wheat malt ( to
stabilize the head , I guess).  About the only thing that was right was
that the color was close.  Taste was OK, but not a pale ale or even close=

to it. =

- --------------------------------------------------------
Chas Peterson is irked by his disassociating Carbonator (R). I had the sa=
me
problem and took it back after having to drink a full 2 liters of beer
*carefully* to get the parts back. Tough Duty.  I returned it to the HB
store who replaced it immediately.  Liquid Bread had a bum mold and made
lots of these, but will replace them without question with the newer
version which works great..  If you can't return them I suggest you use a=

small amount ( dot or two) of crazy glue up inside where it won't contact=

the beer, assemble quickly and warm the Carbonator with  a hairdryer to
drive off all the unpolymerized cyano-acrylate.
- --------------------------------------------------------
I am sorry AlK didn't get to go on his trip to the UK as I was looking
forward to a sterling report, as always.  Like him I also celebrate, rath=
er
than feel saddened by, the end of a long healthy life of loved ones.  May=

we all have such a fine result.
- --------------------------------------------------------
Despite all the discussion a couple of weeks ago, I still feel that some =
of
the issues regarding alcohol removal were not dealt with thoroughly enoug=
h
and feel that some still believe that simple heating of a beer to 180F or=

so will render the beer alcohol-free.  Despite what you read into
Schmidling's or anyone else's webpage. it is ABSOLUTELY not true that
simply holding beer at any temperature without evaporation will produce a=
n
alcohol free beer.

As a number of contributors pointed out, alcohol is only removed by
distillation - which is illegal.  Alcohol by itself cannot be removed
without removing substantial water and aroma factors as has also been
pointed out. The reason is that in order to boil off the alcohol the tota=
l
vapor pressure (v.p. of alcohol plus water at the boiling temperature) ha=
s
to be equal to one atmosphere. Since both water and alcohol have a vapor
pressure, the vapor above beer has both ingredients, as does the
distillate. At atmospheric pressure in a simple pot-still arrangement, yo=
u
can never remove all of the alcohol, just reduce it substantially after
about 1/3 has been evaporated.  By reducing the head pressure with a
vacuum, the total v.p. can equal the lower head pressure and you can boil=

at a lower temperature, but you will still get a loss of water and other
aroma components and still be unable to get rid of all of the alcohol. Th=
e
lower temperature will reduce sugar caramelization and melandoin formatio=
n,
but will still result in a change in flavor.

In summary, it is not possible to produce a non-alcohol ( as contrasted
with a low-alcohol) beer without substantial capital equipment using eith=
er
sophisticated distillation columns or membrane separation. Ken Schwartz'
approach to LA beer is encouraging and we look forward to his and others'=

further contributions on the subject. =



Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =



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Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:19:15 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Underfill/overcarbonation, whole leaf hops, sake

Brewsters:

Despite AlK's excellent blind and deaf experiment some months ago and man=
y
other attestations ( like Scott Murman's) to the fact that partially
filling a naturally conditioned bottle will produce over carbonation I
remain skeptical, since I have never experienced it.

It is a simple and indisputable fact of life that the priming sugar amoun=
t
controls the amount of carbon dioxide formed, assuming that the beer is
fully fermented out before priming and all of the priming sugar is consum=
ed
by the yeast.

It is also a fact that the amount of carbonation in the beer ( CO2
dissolved per volume of beer) is determined by the amount of CO2 dissolve=
d
in the beer and the total headspace, since it is in equilibrium with CO2 =
in
the gas phase only and independent of the other gases in the headspace.

If we assume the head contained air at bottling, then the pressure in the=

partially filled bottle after conditioning would be one atmosphere plus t=
he
CO2 pressure formed by the fermentation of the priming sugar.  If the
headspace in the bottle contained only CO2 and no air or nitrogen then th=
e
pressure in the head would only be dependent on the amount of CO2 generat=
ed
by the priming sugar content in the bottle plus the little bit in the
headspace and totally dependent on the solubility of the CO2 and pressure=

of the CO2 and only a little higher than normal.

If the bottle was primed directly with the amount of sugar put in the
bottle for a full measure, but a lesser amount of beer added, the lower
amount of CO2 dissolved in the lesser amount of beer, would produce a
higher pressure in the bottle, even if the headspace was CO2 only, since
there is less beer to dissolve the CO2.

If the beer was primed and then added to the bottle and the headspace was=

CO2 only, then the pressure of the CO2 would be less than a normally fill=
ed
bottle, since the bottle would contain less sugar to generate less CO2 in=

more volume of headspace.  =


In every above case of partial filling, the carbonation level ( that is t=
he
amount of CO2 dissolved per volume of beer) would be less with the
exception, perhaps, of the directly bottle primed example.

Now, I also believe the observations made by responsible observers, so ho=
w
do I square these above physical truths with the apparently contradictory=

belief that partially filled bottles can be over carbonated?  Only way I
know is if the normally  filled bottles have not fully consumed the primi=
ng
sugar because the yeast flocculated early or something in the presence of=

newly added sugar and no oxygen or other nutrients.  It is possible to ge=
t
a higher total pressure in partially filed bottles and more CO2 in the be=
er
if the yeast growth after bottling is encouraged by the high level of
oxygen in the headspace of partially filled bottles AND all of the sugar =
is
consumed, but not so by the filled bottles.

How to test this hypothesis?  Fill empty bottles with nitrogen and others=

with CO2 , prime the beer - not the bottles- add it to these bottles and
allow to condition normally.  compare this with partially filled bottles
containing air and also full bottles. If the oxygen hypothesis is correct=
,
then bottles with nitrogen will have a higher total pressure in the
headspace and equla to the air filled bottles, but nearly the same degree=

of carbonation as the CO2 bottles.  Bottles filled with air should  have
the highest headspace pressure and higher carbonation due to the oxygen
stimulating yeast growth and consuming all the sugar, relative to the
normally filled bottles.  The amount of carbonation in partially filled
bottles with inert gases, should be nearly the same in all bottles, with
the partially filled bottles showing less carbonation, but the CO2 being
higher than the nitrogen filled bottles.

Perhaps the reason I never experienced this is because I normally
"kraeusen" my bottles with fermenting starter made up with the priming
sugar and a small amount of malt extract for nutrients for the yeast.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Kris Jacobs -"Whole leaf hops" is the professional term for hops that hav=
e
not been plugged or pelleted.  As was pointed out the hop cone is a made =
up
of of bracts which are primitive leaves and may explain the derivation of=

this usage. It is not correct to call these cones "flowers" and is
confusing because the flowers are a part of the cone.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew Sandow asks about making sake, saying that he is a novice extract=

brewer.  I just finished making my first batch of sake. It turned out ver=
y
nice, but it did stretch my skills as an all grain brewer and a wine make=
r
of many years and I cannot recommend it wholeheartedly to a novice brewer=
=2E
I cannot heartily recommend any book either as I found Fred Eckhardt's bo=
ok
"SAKE"  complex and confusing.  It required many readings of this plus a
number of other books and articles until I had a clear picture of what wa=
s
going on and what I needed to do.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Art Steinmetz is correct to be puzzled by the claims of gadgets that clai=
m
to restore "carbonaton" by pumping in ambient air. Won't happen - as you
suspected. CO2 partial pressure is independent of the pressure of air in
the bottle.  See above comments and some I made a couple of weeks ago on
this subject.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =


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Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:49:47 EDT
From: aehoward at juno.com (Andrew E Howard)
Subject: Harvesting yeast from primary

Folks,

I've always made a 1-pint starter from Wyeast packs, but now I'm actually
to the point where I might be brewing frequently enough to pitch the
yeast from the primary into a new batch (yee-haw!).  

Can anyone enlighten me as to the techniques for doing this that have
worked best for them?  What portion of the sediment at the bottom of the
primary is actually yeast?  Is there a sanitary way to store yeast from
the bottom of the primary for future use?  Etc...

Any advice is most appreciated!

Andrew

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Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:21:15 -0700
From: "Brander Roullett (Volt Computer)" <a-branro at MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: Force Carbonating at Room Temp....

I have been seeing tons of posts on Force Carbonation, but i seem to be
missing something here.  Actually, not missing, but looking for
something no one mentions. 

What are the procedures for Force Carbonating at Room Temp.  Everyone
seems to force carbonate at low temps (mainly cuz they have a
refrigerator)  i don't have room for an extra frig, and can only
occasionally get away with sticking one of my 3 gallon kegs in the frig
for a day.

my questions are...
1) if you carbonate at room temp, what shoudl the co2 settings be?
2) if you carbonate at lower temps (ie. sticking my 3 gallon kegs in the
frig) and then take it out. what happens? will i lose the carbonation?
3) if i carbonate at room temp, and then chill to serve what happens? do
i lose the carb?

any other pitfalls?

Brander (Badger) Roullett  badger at nwlink.com  a-branro at microsoft.com
Homepage:  	http://www.nwlink.com/~badger
Brewing: 	http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/badgbeer.html
Resume: 		http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/resume.html
- ----------------------In The SCA----------------------
Lord Frederick Badger of Amberhaven, TWIT, Squire to Sir Nicholaus
Red Tree Pursuivant-Madrone, An Tir  Marshal-College of St Bunstable

"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline--it
helps if you have some kind of football team, or some nuclear weapons,
but at the very least you need a beer."
                                       -- Frank Zappa


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Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:23:57 -0500 (CDT)
From: Aaron Kelley <akelley at cems.umn.edu>
Subject: Bottle Headspace

smuman posed a couple of questions on bottle headspace and overcarbonation.

First, let me try and dispel a myth.  For all practical purposes, water 
is an incompressible fluid.  This makes it impossible to kill yeast by 
overpressurizing a bottle.  The yeast will only "feel" atmospheric 
pressure no matter what the pressure is in the headspace of the bottle.  
To prove to yourself that water is incompressible, try taking a syringe 
filled with water and no air.  Plug the end and try to press the 
plunger.  It is impossible to compress the liquid.

Now, on to the real question of why underfilled bottles are 
overcarbonated.  I have some difficulties with this problem.  I myself 
have never had this problem, but have heard others relate it and assume 
the data must be true.  However, assume  that the same amount of CO2 is 
produced in each of the bottles (an underfilled and an overfilled 
bottle), ignoring the small difference in liquid volume.  The engineering 
science says that the overfilled bottle should be more carbonated.  This 
is because CO2 is a gas at room temperature, and therefore more soluble 
in the gas phase (headspace) than in the liquid.  The bottle with less 
gas phase forces more CO2 to dissolve in the liquid, because less can be 
contained in the headspace.

Another explaination of the same result uses Henry's law.
               x=p/H
x=mass fraction of CO2 in liquid
p=partial pressure of CO2 in gas 
H=partitioning coefficient between gas and liquid

Because the CO2 is less soluble in the water than in the gas, the 
overfilled bottle will have a higher pressure (as smurman estimated) as 
well as a higher CO2 partial pressure.  This will cause x, the amount of 
CO2 dissolved in the liquid to increase.  This analysis also supports the 
fact that the overfilled bottle should be more carbonated.

But why does experimental evidence say the underfilled bottle is more 
carbonated.  The only way for this to be true is that different amounts 
of CO2 are produced in each bottle.  I could not figure out how this 
could be so.  However, a colleague of mine and fellow homebrewer (Tim 
Leaf), had a plausable explanation.  The difference may be the oxygen in 
the headspace.  The underfilled bottle has much more oxygen available 
than a regular or overfilled bottle.  If the yeast are able to use this 
oxygen they will degrade the sugar oxidatively, producing 6 molecules of 
CO2 per sugar molecule.  When oxygen is not present, yeast must use the 
fermentative pathway and produce only 2 CO2 molecules per sugar 
molecule.  The net result is that more CO2 is produced in the underfilled 
bottle.  I do not believe there is enough oxygen present to produce three 
times as much CO2, but more CO2 production seems plausible.

One final note.  CO2 dissolves in water as H2CO3, carbonic acid.  This is 
an equilibrium process, but does not affect the results of the equation 
stated here.

I hope this helps.  I am interested to here if anyone else thinks the 
oxidative degradation of sugar is plausible.


Aaron Kelley
Chemical Engineer and Graduate Student
Biological Process Technology Institute
Department of Chemical Engineering and Material Science
University of Minnesota
akelley at cems.umn.edu



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Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 14:31:05 -0700
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro)
Subject: Ascorbic acid and HSA

     Hi all,
     
     I think somebody posted an idea about using ascorbic acid to acidify 
     sparge water.  Ascorbic acid is a strong antioxidant, and could help 
     prevent hot side aeration (HSA) effects.  I was telling a friend of 
     mine this and he asked, "but what happens when you WANT to aerate the 
     wort?" (as when pitching).  "Will the ascorbic acid use up all the 
     oxygen?"
     
     That's a good question, I thought.  Sure, you could use a massive 
     excess of O2 at pitching time to ensure that there is enough available 
     to the yeast, but why not just reduce HSA to begin with?
     
     Is the original writer of this recent post reading this?  Any 
     comments?  From anybody?
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro

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Date: Wed, 21 May 97 14:15:08 EST
From: "Kirk Harralson" <kwh at smtpgwy.roadnet.ups.com>
Subject: Stoves

Eric Palmer asked about electric stoves:

>Does anyone have any experience with the maximum volume
>I can expect to bring to a boil in a reasonable time on
>this range using the largest burner. I currently can get
>2 gals. boiling in about 30 min (with 7# of extract) starting
>with hot tap water.

Years and years of experience and frustration...  5 - 6 gallons will 
eventually boil on an electric range, but plan on adding an hour plus 
to your brew day.  Here is my 2 cents worth:

Use 2 or more pots.  I split my wort between a 33qt enamel pot and a 5 
gallon SS pot to start the boil (these are combined into the 33qt 
later).  I started doing this to eliminate boil overs, but it is a 
true time saver.  When my sparge is finished, I'm usually within 80 - 
90 minutes of turning on my chiller.  Eliminating boilovers is a key, 
in my opinion, to enjoying this hobby.

Cover the pot(s) when first heating.  This heats faster than an open 
pot, but monitor it very carefully - this will cause boilovers even if 
the pot is half full.  I usually remove the lid altogether or slide it 
to one side when the temperature approaches boiling.

Search the HBD archives for cleaning ceramic stove tops.  Volumes have 
been written on this, and it is all good info.  Also search for using 
hot tap water -- some people recommend against it.

Invest in "canning" elements if you can.  The large size burner costs 
about $40 in this area.  If your pot covers two burners (which will 
also speed things up), you will need the same height burner for each 
one.

I have been told that lining the pan underneath the burner with 
aluminum foil, shiny side up, will increase the heat delivered to the 
pot.  I've also heard this is dangerous, so I've never done it 
personally.  Has any other HBDers done this?

If you can possibly move your brewery outdoors and use a high BTU 
propane cooker, do it.  I have been procrastinating on this for about 
3 years, and regret it.  Chances are good that 1.5 hours plus on an 
electric range on high will eventually ruin part of your stove 
(element, receptacle, wiring, switch, etc.).  One repair bill will 
cover the majority of an outdoor cooker / pot setup.  Plus, if it 
saves a divorce, you're money ahead :-)

Consider full-volume boils and quick chilling.  It really makes a 
difference.

I hope this helps -- Good Luck!

Kirk Harralson
Bel Air, Maryland


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Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 17:46:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mench5 at aol.com
Subject: mushrooms and beer

kudos, oh great collective- i've been lurking for some time now and figure
its time for .$.02. my other hobby is gourmet mushroom cultivation. i was
drawn to this mostly by the parallels it has to my #1 hobby- BREWING - i also
love fresh gourmet mushrooms, not those flavorless industrial, grocery store
buttons. but shitakes, oysters, maitake, reishei, to name a few. thats
parallel #1- white buttons = budmillercoors, portabellos=killians,
crimini=heineken, oysters=sierra nevada, and shitakes = anchor steam(the
greatest). home 'shrooming is like homebrewing was 10 years ago - in its
infancy. don't get me wrong homeshroom could never reach homebrew's
popularity,rightfully so,but again, the parallel is there. 

when cultivating mushrooms, sanitation is critical. you need a near sterile
medium to grow your culture up with no competition from other infectants.
each generation the mycelia grow in population by about ten times. until you
ultimately have enough to "pitch" into your medium (or substrate, in mushroom
lingo). after innoculating into your final substrate the mycelia "run
through" building their population and consuming the substrate. the more
mycelia you inocculate with the quicker the consumption and less likely
you'll have an infection. this is where the parallel begins to split. a
brewer is after the spent substrate, the beer, but the schroomer is after the
fruit of the  fungus, the mushroom.

i've toyed with merging my two hobbies (some love my shitake brown ale). i've
read about a new method of propagation in which you pitch mycelia into a
sterile sugar soloution, let ferment for a day and broadcast over your
substrate. i have found a by-product of mycelia fermentation is co2 but don't
believe alcohol is produced. when making my shitake brown ale i contemplated
the effects of  dry schrooming and mycelia competing with my yeast, so i
boiled well before adding to the fermentor.
my shroom room is kept safely distant from my brewery for fear of the
unknown.

one final parallel, schroomers can buy kits that are ready made, no
maintaining cultures, no slants, growing up cultures or sterilizing
substrate. just simple misting daily and harvest in a week or so. you can get
as deep in this hobby as you want.

i hope i've stimulated the collective thought and hope for some stimulating
discussion  to follow.

for easy rinsing and filling of cornie kegs, i put a t in the sprayer hose on
the sink and connected an out fitting to it. this has been a great addition
to my brewery.

brew well

tom moench
mench5 at aol.com

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