---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Vancouver International Amateur Brewer's Competition (Jim Cave)
  Scottish Ales v. Scotch Ale ("Ian Wilson")
  Refrigerator Question (john.hamilton)
  Small Keg Tap (Michael Neely)
  Fermentation Temps (Stephen)
  Arthritis and Cherry Wine (Aesoph, Michael)
  Re:  Relay (Tim.Watkins)
  Honey and Fruit beer ("C&S Peterson")
  San Diego Brewpubs ("C&S Peterson")
  Fridges (PAUL W HAAF JR)
  Coopers Sparkling Ale ("Dave Draper")
  Supersaturated CO2 (Bob McCowan)
  single infusion mashes/ pale/pilsner malt (mirsjer)
  Fermenting with yeast combinations. (SCRIT)
  Lagering under pressure? (Charles Burns)
  RIMS heater controller (P Mitchell)
  long term storage of yeast.... (dbrigham)
  "CO2 Toxicity"  An explanation? (David Lyle Robinson)
  Refrigerator question ("DICK KUZARA")
  CO2 supersaturation (korz)
  CO2 supersaturation (Dave Whitman)
  all grain newbie question (Andrew Stavrolakis)
  Spigot for RC Cola keg (Tim Martin)
  sour mashing (korz)
  Belgian Water Recipe (KennyEddy)
  Cherry Wheat Ale (William H Plotner)
  Extract to malt conversion and crystal malt preparation (Jorge Blasig - IQ)
  Malt mills (Randy Ricchi)


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Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 15:05:43 -0700
From: Jim Cave <cave at psc.org>
Subject: Vancouver International Amateur Brewer's Competition 

Second Notification....

      The Royal Canadian Malted Patrol will be hosting Vancouver
International Amateur Brewer's Competition on Saturday June 21st
1997.  The Competition will be held in conjunction with the
Vancouver International Micro Brewer's Festival.  Naturally, we
will be looking for qualified beer judges to sample and rate what
we hope will be a quality showing of beers!  This year we hope for
125-150 entries.  I would like to take this opportunity to invite
you to judge with us this year.  Judges will receive a compliment-
ary admission to the beer fesitival.  Please RSVP if you can
attend.  Ideally we would like 30 qualified judges to attend.
During the evening of June 21st, we will have a banquet at Sailor
Hagars Brew Pub, which the judges are most welcome to attend.=20
Sailor Hagars has put on a couple of banquets for homebrewers in
Vancouver and the food and especially the beer has been most
excellent.  There is some limitation as to the number of Banquet
tickets so please RSVP as soon as possible to avoid disappointment.=20
=20

      Please arrive between 08:30-09:15.  Judging will begin at
09:30 Saturday June 21st at the beer festival site, the Plaza of
Nations, on Pacific Avenue, S.E. of B.C. Place Stadium, Vancouver
B.C.  Parking will be expensive, so Carpool-it if possible.

      We will have 10 categories: 1) American Ales 2) English Ales
3) Wheat and German Ales 4) Dark Beers (Porters, Stouts and Browns)
5) Light Lagers 6) Dark Lagers 7) Belgians 8) Strong Beers 9)
Specialty (Fruit, Smoked and cider) 10) Specialty (Spiced, Sake and
Meads).  Categories may be resorted if necessary.  If you would
like to enter beers, the closing for entries is June 14th and cost
is $5 and 2 bottles of beer!  Please mark entry with style/sub-
style (BJCP or AHA) as well as VIABC category.  Entries can be
delivered to Spagnols (1325 Derwent Way, New Westminster, B.C. V3M
5V9) and at other selected locations (we have a U.S. mailing site
this year).  Please call Russ Morris for details (604-526-2573,
SLIDES at UNIXG.UBC.CA) about entries and drop-off locations, or
myself Jim Cave, (days 604-684-8081, eves 987-8262, CAVE at PSC.ORG)
for judging arrangements.

                              Thank you!
                             =20
                              Jim Cave=1A

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Date: Tue, 10 Jun 97 15:32:19 PDT
From: "Ian Wilson" <iwilson at lightspeed.net>
Subject: Scottish Ales v. Scotch Ale

Subject: Scottish Ale vs. Scotch Ale,

>Samuel W. Darko writes:
>I drank the best beer a few weeks ago and I'd like to brew some of my
>own.  It's called Belhaven Scottish Ale.  I tried to look up a recipe =
on
>the Web, but only found recipies for Scotch Ales.  Could somebody tell =
me
>if there is a difference?  I'm kinda new to this hobby and I still have =
a
>lot of questions.  If at all possible could somebody send a recipe
>(extract)?

As a born Scot, I do take some offense at fellow Americans (I am an Ameri=
can citizen, and
proud of it) when they use the appellation "Scotch" when referring to any=
thing but "MIST" and a
distilled malt beverage of some renown. Properly, people are Scots or Sco=
ttish, even when they
have a great deal of Scotch in them).

I fondly remember one of my uncle=92s first trips to this country. The =
first place we stopped after
the airport was for gas. The attendant leaned through the window and aske=
d my dad, "Regular?".
The second place was a cafe where we all had coffee? Again, Uncle Jim was=
 asked "Regular?"
At which point Uncle Jim exploded "Bloody me! What is this American preoc=
cupation with ma
bowel habits?" He was even more amused with Americans he met who claimed =
to have traces of
Scotch in them.

To answer, Scottish Ales are brewed by Scottish brewers in Scottish brewe=
ries. Scotch Ales are
brewed by -dare I say it- English pretending to brew an authentic highlan=
d product.  Americans
call them what ever they like, even if they are a bit "twisted".

An excellent reference would be  "Scottish Ale" from the style series, =
even id it is written by a
"Londoner".
Good Luck.

Ian Wilson
Tule River Brewery
Porterville, California

iwilson at lightspeed.net


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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 19:10:25 +1000
From: john.hamilton at deetya.gov.au
Subject: Refrigerator Question

This is my first ever posting so if it looks silly then ...

George De Piro asked about what had happened to his refrigerator when he
moved it, perhaps the following might be useful to you.

I know from experience that many old British refrigerators would not
work after being transported unless you let them stand for 24 hours!!!

I seem to recall it was something to do with the refrigerant being
scattered all over the system and having to wait for it to drain down to
(or through) the collector in the coolant system.

I suggest you turn the beast off and wait for 24 hours then try again...

John.Hamilton at Deetya.Gov.Au
A Pom in OZ

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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 97 07:11:51 -0400
From: Michael Neely <mn at caveartstudios.com>
Subject: Small Keg Tap

Does anyone have the plans for constructing a mini-keg cooler with 
external tap. The tap that fits on the top of mini-kegs just isn't as 
nice looking.  Details, details.

Cheers!

C. Michael Neely

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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 08:13:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: Stephen <mcdonnell at icubed.net>
Subject: Fermentation Temps

Evening or morning to ya,	
	I'm rather new to this digest and to home brewing, about 
7 months now.  I have a question that I'm sure is rather simple 
to answer but I cant seem to find the answer.  It's in regards to 
the temperature for fermentation.  I'm currently brewing a red 
ale and I'm trying to maintain  at  a 68 - 70 temp but here in 
Florida and my house seems to shoot the bottle and bucket temps 
up to 74 - 76.  I add ice to the water to chill the carboy as 
much as possible but I'll still find it in the morning with a 74 
then I'll chill it and get it to 68 then after work it will be 76 
and so on.  My major question is: is it bad fluctuate the temp as 
much as this? or should I just leave it at  at  75 and forget it.  

thanks  Steve


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Date: 11 Jun 97 08:15:32 EDT
From: aesoph at ncemt1.ctc.com (Aesoph, Michael)
Subject: Arthritis and Cherry Wine

Dear Collective:



	I have heard from many sources that the cherries used for making wine 
have medicinal properties.  Rheumatoid arthritis is one ailment they 
supposedly cure.  Is there any truth to this?  The cherries are not 
pressed into juice, but are fermented along with the water, sugar, and 
other ingredients.  I am making a batch now and it does ferment 
differently than any fruit I've tried in the past - same yeast, same 
amount of sugar, same temperature, etc. etc.  



===============================================

Michael D. Aesoph                              Mechanical Engineer

Concurrent Technologies Corp.       Phone:  (814) 269-2758

211 Industrial Park Road                    FAX:  (814) 269-4458

Johnstown, PA  15904                          EMail:  aesoph at ctc.com




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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 97 9:19:23 EDT
From: Tim.Watkins at analog.com
Subject: Re:  Relay

Ian Smith wrote:

<<I need to switch a 20 amp 120 VAC heater on and off with a computer card 
that is limited to 5 VDC and 25 mA. Do I need a solid state relay or can 
this be achieved by a less expensive way?. I would like to use an 
isolated>>


Ian,

	I used a SSR when building my temp controller for my fridge.  They 
work well, and are available in zero cross models.  Check out Omron, (the 
brand I use).  I believe their web site is www.omron.com, and you can buy 
them through DigiKey (standard disclaimers apply).  The verson I'm using is 
a 5 volt control that draws only 3.5 ma when on.  should be perfect for you 
computer control.

Regards,
Tim

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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 97 13:49:38 UT
From: "C&S Peterson" <CNS_PETERSON at msn.com>
Subject: Honey and Fruit beer

HBDers -

AlK objects to my suggestion of using Orange Blossom or Wildflower honey in 
fruit beers.  Let me clarify a bit.  First, I probably should have noted that 
I would not recommend using a large quantity of honey, no more than say 15% of 
the fermentables (about 1# in a five gallon batch), in a fruit beer.  My 
suggestion of keeping the malt flavor in check was not intended to promote 
"fruit cooler" beers, but was based on my experience in brewing with some more 
delicate flavored fruits, such as strawberries.  

Perhaps it depends on what type of fruit you use, but my experience is that a 
little honey helps out the fruit flavors in a fruit beer, but the beer still 
tastes like, well, beer (yeast and malt mostly).  While competition results 
are certainly no absolue measure, I can say that honey helped out the 
Strawberry Ale I (and my brewing partner) submitted to last year's NHC.  
Again, as I stated in my origional post, honey might not be appropriate for 
styles with a strong malt expression.

I have not tried Brimstone's fruit beer yet (distribution hasen't made it to 
my part of Maryland yet), but will give it a go when I get the chance.  I too 
find objectionable beers with too much fruit expression, but have found that 
working with whole fruit you hit an undesirable sourness level before you can 
get that kind of fruit expression in beers.  My suspicion is that the 
breweries that are turning out the "beer coolers" use fruit extract or add 
extract following filtration to get the sweet fruit flavor high.  

As far as my suggestion for flaked corn or rice in helping head retention, 
this was simply my observation.  In thinking about it, I suppose flaked barley 
would be a better choice (I've still got a few pounds of flaked maze hanging 
around from a mail-order HB supplier who made a "substitution" for flaked 
barley......so I use it sparingly if the opportunity presents itself).  

I would also agree that fruit beers are tricky to make -- its difficult to 
gauge just how much fruit to put in or when the beer hits its peak.  But the 
sour-malt tang of a well balanced fruit beer is one of my favorite summer 
treats.

Chas Peterson
Laytonsville, Md.

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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 97 14:05:55 UT
From: "C&S Peterson" <CNS_PETERSON at msn.com>
Subject: San Diego Brewpubs

HBDers -

I am going to San Diego next week and have pulled down the "619" area code for 
brewpubs off the PUBCRAWLER.  Man, what a choice!!!!   Can anyone provide any 
recommendations of ones to be sure to hit/avoid.  Private email preferred 
(cns_peterson at msn.com).

TIA,

Chas Peterson
Laytonsville, Md

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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 10:39:55 EDT
From: haafbrau1 at juno.com (PAUL W HAAF JR)
Subject: Fridges

Anytime you move a 'fridge from one place to another, it needs to sit to
let the freon resettle.  I have been told by service techs that you
should let them sit from 12-24 hrs before plugging them in & turning them
on.  This applies to both old and new 'fridges.  As far as the posted
fridge question,  if you then unplugged it, plug it back in and give it a
shot.  If not, unplug it wait 24hrs, and try again.  
Good Luck.
Beer, it isn't just for breakfast anymore.- Sign seen in a HB shop
Paul Haaf
haafbrau1 at juno.com

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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 09:40:42 -6
From: "Dave Draper" <ddraper at utdallas.edu>
Subject: Coopers Sparkling Ale

Dear Friends, 

Al wrote, responding to a question about Coopers Ale:

"I believe that the clovey character and cloudiness increases with 
age and fresh Coopers is less phenolic.  Yes, this is due to the 
yeast. You need to use refined sugar to imitate Coopers Sparkling 
Ale... my guess would be about 15%.  Use the palest extract you can 
find (something like Munton & Fison Extra Light Dried Malt Extract or 
very fresh Alexander's Pale Extract), hop to (oh, I would guess) 
about 25 IBUs with Pride of Ringwood, and for yeast, see below..."

Having lived in Sydney for three years, I may be able to firm up
some of this.  The phenolic notes in fresh Coopers are quite
distinct, both out of the bottle and on draught; it is not something
that develops only after some time.  It is, as Al says, due directly
to the yeast used.  As for the sugar used by Coopers, if memory
serves it is 20% or more-- check Michael Jackson's Beer Companion,
where the info is given in detail, for the answer.  Al's guess on the
IBUs is right on the money: Coopers is listed by Jackson to have 26
or 28 IBUs (again working from memory). I am reasonably sure that 
they hop with a single bittering addition; no finishing hops.

Andy Walsh has posted several times about the characteristics of 
Adelaide water (which he reckons might be better described as "mud"), 
and this must also have a strong effect on the beer's distinctive 
flavor.  

Original poster:
    Is Cooper's dry yeast available at US homebrew stores the same
    yeast?  Can the yeast in the bottle be cultured and is it the
    fermentation yeast or a different strain just used for bottle
    conditioning?

Al:
"Cooper's dry yeast is a different beast than what's in the bottle.
Yes, you can culture the yeast from the bottles.  I've heard that the
bottling yeast is the same as the fermentation yeast."

These facts, too, first appeared in these pages from Andy (see #1750,
6 June 1995 for example). Homebrewers in Australia routinely culture
the yeast in Coopers bottles; it is unquestionably the fermentation
yeast.  Coopers is fermented quite warm, into the 20s C (mid-70s F).

Finally, as Jeff Renner has pointed out often, the Australian ale
yeast A01 marketed by Yeast Labs (Dan McConnell's firm) is in fact
from a Coopers bottle some years back; to my knowledge they have not
modified the strain during that time, so that if you cannot get a
bottle of Coopers you can get to the yeast that way. 

Cheers, Dave in Dallas
- ---
*****************************************************************************
   Dave Draper, Dept Geosciences, U. Texas at Dallas, Richardson TX 75083
          ddraper at utdallas.edu  Home page: http://hbd.org/~ddraper
                 Beer page: http://hbd.org/~ddraper/beer.html
The one with the biggest starter wins. ---Dan McConnell


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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 11:15:25 -0400
From: Bob McCowan <bob.mccowan at bmd.cpii.com>
Subject: Supersaturated CO2

>We've seen several posts lately discussing the possibility that 
>fermenting beer might become supersaturated with CO2.  I find this 
>impossible to believe.  Just about all our beers are in fermenters 
>that have airlocks on them, right?  CO2 evolved inside the fermenter 
>is allowed to escape through the airlock, right?  So how on Earth 
>could the beer become supersaturated? 

That the beer has bubbles tells me that it is not supersaturated.

Bob

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob McCowan                            
                                     
ATG/Receiver-Protector            voice:  (508)-922-6000 x208
CPI BMD				    fax:  (508)-922-8914
Beverly, MA  01915               e-mail:  bob.mccowan at bmd.cpii.com


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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 09:44:49 -0700
From: mirsjer at charlie.cns.iit.edu
Subject: single infusion mashes/ pale/pilsner malt

Hi folks. (wow, such a long time away from the HBD--it's still here!)
I've got a couple of questions.... I do single infusion mashes in my
10gal. Gott cooler (about 5 all grain batches to date)... and I'm
thinking about doing a Belgian next... Is it necessary for me to do
protein rests, if I use pilsner malt? I know that US malt is highly
modified, but what about Belgian malts?
I'm trying to avoid the extra hassles of trying to bring my mash through
different temp. changes...  Thoughts, comments? 
E-mail would be greatly appreciated, as I don't regularly read the HBD
anymore (no time :< )

Thanks!

Jeremy
mirsjer at charlie.cns.iit.edu

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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 10:59:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: SCRIT at aol.com
Subject: Fermenting with yeast combinations.

Is it advisable to use to different strains of yeast in a ferment?

Like two strains of ale to pitch with or a pitching yeast and a finishing
yeast.

Or maybe primary ferment with ale yeast then goto to secondary and pitch a 
lager yeast and lager finish the beer under lager temps.

What about champagne yeast to finish of a high gravity  barley wine?

Private email is fine                         SCRIT at AOL.COM

Thanks,   Joe.

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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 97 08:20 PDT
From: cburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns)
Subject: Lagering under pressure?

I finished my latest attempt at a Vienna lager last week and kegged it for 
long sleep in the fridge  at  34F. Would it make any difference in the quality 
of the beer if I went ahead and carbonated it (force carb)? Doing that gives 
me the opportunity to taste it weekly to find out how its doing. What effect 
will carbonation and pressure have on lagering?

Charley in Resuce CA (six ribbons at the county fair last week)


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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 11:35:26 -0400
From: P Mitchell <datadog at aug.com>
Subject: RIMS heater controller

twas writ by Ian Smith:
>I need to switch a 20 amp 120 VAC heater on and off with a computer >card
that is limited to 5 VDC and 25 mA...

Definitely not my field of expertise, so I sent the question off to someone
who does know and got this:

The best way to do this is the solid state relay. A company called "Gordos"
specializes in exactly this type of relay. I have used these relays alot to
protect the outputs on P.L.C.`s. I do recommend that once you get the
relays, First building up the pins with a little solder before installing
them into the base as they do have a tendency to have a very loose fit.

Hope this helps!
Pen



 **************************************************
 **                 P Mitchell                   **
 **              datadog at aug.com                 **
 **      http://userpages.aug.com/datadog/       **
 **            public key available              **
 **                                              **
 **  After taking the test and failing it three  **
 **  times, I thought to myself, "Maybe I'm not  **
 **  meant to be an I.Q."                        **
 **************************************************


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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 97 11:56:03 EST
From: dbrigham at nsf.gov
Subject: long term storage of yeast....

        I have seen recent postings asking about long term storage of 
        yeast - more than the few days/weeks you can manage with a 
        starter in the fridge.
        
        At the same time I recall seeing tales (here and elsewhere) of 
        growing starters from the dregs of yeast in bottled beer.  Never 
        done it myself mind you (YET!).
        
        So - how long does the small amount of yeast at the bottom of a 
        bottle conditioned beer last?  Seems to me it has to be longer 
        than the few days/weeks we can keep a starter in the fridge.  So 
        could you save a couple of bottles of bottle conditioned brew 
        from a previous batch and use the yeast later (how much later?) 
        to create a starter when needed?
        
        Inquiring (and slightly adled) Minds Want To Know!
        
        Dana Brigham
        National Science Foundation
        dbrigham at nsf.gov


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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 10:13:33 -0700
From: David Lyle Robinson <robinson at ichips.intel.com>
Subject: "CO2 Toxicity"  An explanation?

Fellow Homebrewers,

I must admit that it's been awhile since I've read the digest
in depth.  I generally scan it for anything that catches my
eye.  Unfortunately, I fear that I've missed the original posting
on this topic, but it is very interesting none-the-less because
I've noticed the same phenomenon and was planning on posting 
some information about it.  It looks like someone beat me to
the punch... but I believe that the wrong mechanism has been
identified.

First some background.  Besides homebrewing, my other hobby is
tropical fish and aquatic plants (bear with me here!).  In this
field, a small brewing setup is commonly used for the purpose of 
PRODUCING CO2 to fertilize the aquatic plants.  

Since the whole purpose of this setup is the production of CO2
rather than the production of alcohol, the ideal setup would be 
continuous for a long period of time (you have to change the "wort"
less often).  All along, I've been assuming that either the food 
source was all used up or the alcohol level had raised to a point 
that the yeast no longer thrived.  I always use an alcohol tolerant 
strain (any champagne yeast) to help the longevity.  

Anyways, a couple of months ago I stumbled (quite by accident) onto 
what has evidently recently been referred to as "CO2 toxicity" here
on the digest.  Its important to understand that a side effect of 
having CO2 in solution is that the pH drops to an acid state very 
quickly... especially after any buffer has been consumed.  I believe 
that this reduction in pH is the one of the mechanisms that causes 
yeast to stop reproducing.  Is it possible that "alcohol tolerant" 
strains of yeast are really just "acid tolerant?".  I don't know, 
but this is an interesting question.

What caused this train of thought is that I found that I was able to 
"revive" a reaction that was previously assumed to be done due to 
the high alcohol content.  It was a simple matter of adding some
baking soda.  The sodium bicarbonate buffers the mixture and raises 
the pH.  The reaction is not just a quick release of CO2, but one that
lasts for several days.  Therefore, I don't believe that it can be 
attributed to the chemical reaction of baking soda and acid.  

What I haven't gotten around to doing is applying this to a "real"
homebrew setup.  I never took any specific gravity readings or obtained
any measurments of any kind.  I also don't know what the affect of 
baking soda will have on the taste.  Acidity plays an important role with 
how things taste.  However, if you are looking for a high alcohol 
content, perhaps this might have some application?  Perhaps instead of
using baking soda, oyster shell could be used which would time-release
the carbonates into the wort and buffer it to a higher pH?  I would
think that an acid blend could be added at a later point to adjust
for proper "taste" acidity.

Anyways, I believe the original poster was onto something here...
except that I think the "toxicity" is due to acidification rather
than the CO2 itself.  I'd be interested in hearing from anybody
who does experiments in this area.  With my rate of homebrewing
(about once a year) I don't get many chances to experiment! 

Please understand that I'm not stating all the above as fact.  They
are just some casual observations in a different, but related field of
study that may have some radical insight into how we view yeast 
production.  Undoubtedly, further experimentation is required in 
this area to either prove or disprove my ideas.

Regards,                                   
David Robinson                          The Discus Page
robinson at ichips.intel.com               http://www.ee.pdx.edu/~davidr/

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Date: 11 Jun 1997 12:19:45 U
From: "DICK KUZARA" <DICK_KUZARA at itd.sterling.com>
Subject: Refrigerator question

                      Subject:                              Time:  12:13
  OFFICE MEMO         Refrigerator question                 Date:  6/11/97

George_De_Piro writes:
     A friend of mine remodeled her kitchen and gave me the old fridge 
snip
     I plugged it in, all excited about my new toy, only to be disappointed 
     by the lack of any mechanical sounds coming from the unit!
snip
A frost free refrig has a timer that performs a defrost function every 11 or
so hours.  This timer lasts for about 30 minutes.  The timer shuts off the
refrig compressor and turns on heater coils which melt frost collected on the
condenser in the refrig.  If you are in one of these "heater" periods, there
will be no refrig sounds until the 30 or so minutes is up.



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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 12:48:51 -0500 (CDT)
From: korz at xnet.com
Subject: CO2 supersaturation

Dave asks how in the world the fermenting beer can get supersaturated
with CO2 and also says:

>No supersaturation = no excess CO2 to be toxic

Well, I don't know how supersaturation works, but I do know that it
can occur.  The first I heard about supersaturation is with dissolved
sugar.  The solubility of sucrose is a specific amount at a particular
temperature.  However, if you heat the sucrose/water mixture, you can
dissolve more sucrose into it.  As the solution cools, you can actually
exceed the normal solubility limit of the sugar.  One small imperfection,
a physical shock, or a string stuck into the solution and you have:
rock candy!  (a.k.a sucre candi, a.k.a. candi sugar)

Now as for CO2 toxicity (if indeed I'm using the term correctly),
I believe that the beer need not be supersaturated to be toxic
to the yeast.  I believe that each yeast strain has a particular
level of dissolved CO2 which it can tolerate and exceeding that
concentration will inhibit the yeast.  I have been theorising for a
few months now, that the temperature at which yeasts like to ferment
may be related to CO2 concentration (colder == more CO2) as much as 
it is to their metabolism slowing at lower temperatures.  Yes...
you read it here first!

Now I'm kicking myself because I had two fermenters, both with the
same ale yeast and same wort, that had stalled after 50% apparent
attenuation at 55F.  Warming and swirling started up the fermentation
again, but...  DUH! had I swirled one daily at 55F and simply
warmed the other to 70F, I would have had a single data point either
supporting or contradicting "Al's Theory of Cold Fermentation" above.
Guess I'll have to do it again.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com


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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:57:55
From: Dave Whitman <dwhitman at rohmhaas.com>
Subject: CO2 supersaturation 

In HBD#2438, Dave Draper adds to the CO2 toxicity thread:

>We've seen several posts lately discussing the possibility that 
>fermenting beer might become supersaturated with CO2.  I find this 
>impossible to believe.  Just about all our beers are in fermenters 
>that have airlocks on them, right?  CO2 evolved inside the fermenter 
>is allowed to escape through the airlock, right?  So how on Earth 
>could the beer become supersaturated?

It's not that hard for me to believe that beer could be supersaturated with
CO2 during active fermentation. You have to take both thermodynamics and
kinetics into account.

The yeast excrete CO2 directly to solution.  There's a major driving force
to push the CO2 out of the cell, probably well in excess of the chemical
potential of CO2 at saturation.  

As the beer approaches saturation, CO2 will begin to diffuse out of the top
surface of the liquid, while CO2 in the bulk solution diffuses to the
surface to maintain the concentration uniform throughout the solution.  If
(as seems likely) these diffusion rates are slow relative to the CO2
production rate, the CO2 concentration will continue to rise past the
saturation point, unless some other mechanism of removing CO2 kicks in.

Of course, there IS another mechanism - bubbling.  The trouble is, it's
very difficult to spontaneously form ("nucleate") a bubble.   Once the
bubble nucleates, it's very easy to expand it; it's just the initial
nucleation that's tough. 

Ever notice how when you pour soda into a glass, the bubbles form along
scratches in the glass or on the surface of an ice cube? Suspended solids
and rough surfaces are good nucleation sites for bubble formation. 

Most of the anecdotal reports you hear of CO2 toxicity are in trubless
fermentations.  The high surface area of trub flocs seem ideal for bubble
nucleation, and are probably major contributors to the bubble nucleation
rate in "normal" fermentations.  In a trubless fermentation with no good
scratches on the fermenter walls, maybe bubbles just can't nucleate fast
enough to match the CO2 production rate?  Note that if someone did a
trubless fermentation in a vessel with a lot of other nucleation sites
they'd report no problems, leading to the confusion of conflicting reports
we are observing. 

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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 14:37:54 -0400
From: Andrew Stavrolakis <andrew_stavrolakis at harvard.edu>
Subject: all grain newbie question

Hi all,

Allow me to introduce myself, I'm a novice brewer in who started this
addictive hobby upon getting a beer kit from my brother last Christmas.

After brewing about 6 extract/specialty grain batches I thought I'd try
giving all grain a shot for my last brew of the season.  By researching the
HBD archives I found much useful info that gave me the confidence to make
the big jump, more so than in any of the books I read; so thanks to the
collective.

Now a question: I set up a copper manifold (thanks Jeff Benjamin et al.) in
a coleman 16 qt cooler for a single infusion mash (6 lbs grain, 9 qts water
hoping to yield 3.5 gallons of wort for a 3 gal. batch; currently I only
have a 4 gal. boiler).  Due to equipment deficiencies I'm looking to
rectify, I couldn't get a slow enough sparge rate.  I found I had collected
a full volume much shy of the 45 min I had hoped for.  What to do?  I ran
the whole bit back through the grain bed again.  I can't find any reference
as to problems this may cause down the road; was this the wrong thing to do?
What should I have done? BTW, my OG = 1.050 after cooking down to 3 gallons.

Again, Thanks to everyone for the quality info.      
************************************************************
Andrew J. Stavrolakis
Controller
LASPAU: Academic and Professional Programs for the Americas
25 Mount Auburn Street
Cambridge, MA 02138
phone:617-495-0543
fax:  617-495-8990
email:Andrew_Stavrolakis at harvard.edu
http://www.laspau.harvard.edu


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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 14:24:48 -0400
From: Tim Martin <SOUTHWESTERN.SCC#u#MAIL.TimM at southwest.cc.nc.us>
Subject: Spigot for RC Cola keg

Hey Neighbors,

I have a ten gallon Royal Crown Cola keg, possibly antique, possibly the
only one in existence since I've never heard any one mention an RC cola
keg before.

I have little experience with kegs but it appears to be ball lock, all SS with
standard gas in, liquid out fittings and oval lid.  The difference is it has a
brass/chrome plated spigot at the bottom for serving or did any way until
I cut it off.  Consequences of a frustrated brewer with a reciprocating
saw.

The spigot was attached with a crusted, rusted and funky old nut on the
inside that I could not get off so it cut it off from the outside.  The nut
looked like the nuts used on an electrical box for conduit.  I thought I
would be able to reuse the spigot but I can't find a nut to fit the bastard
size threads on it.  I think it has fine and not standard size threads.  I
have searched every store locally, no luck.

This winter I reamed the spigot hole out a bit, installed a 3/4" brass gate
valve to use as a hot liquor tank but now I want to turn it into a fermentor.
 I would like to reuse the spigot but I would buy a new one if I could find
a mail order source.  A plastic bottling spigot would work but I would
have to ream the hole to one inch.  A #5.5 rubber stopper might work
with a plastic in line valve but I'm afraid it might leak or worse pop off. 
I've searched the archives but no luck.

So... I hope someone can help me find a solution to my problem so that I
can return this fine old keg back into operation.  Any web sites for
plumbing, spigots, stainless steel or anything close would be appreciated
or any ideas on how to adapt something for my situation.

Thank you,

Tim Martin
Cullowhee, NC


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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:55:09 -0500 (CDT)
From: korz at xnet.com
Subject: sour mashing

Dave writes:
>Speaking of Lacto infections, Jim Cave believes there is NO reason for
>brewers to do a sour mash.  As long as this is exactly what he means, I
>agree.  No one should infect their whole mash, or worse, their beer with
>lactobacillus directly.  If you wish to add a sour (or "stale") beer in
>making an Entire Porter or Entire Stout Porter, sour about 3% of your
>batch, sterilize it by boiling, and add this to taste to your finished
>beer.  This "additive" is reputed ( with no confirmation from Guiness) to
>be the secret ingrediernt they send out to all their subsidiaries around
>the world. I have tasted some Guiness in past years that did have some
>enteric qualities.

I just wanted to point out that it's not the mash that's soured, but
a portion of the runnings.  It is also important to note that souring
*part* of a mash is one way to lower pH that meets Reinheitsgebot.
As for souring a mash for the purposes of making a sour beer (like
a Flanders Red, Oud Bruin, or Lambic/Lambiek), is *very* hit-or-miss.
Sometimes you get a great result... other times it's terrible.  Given
that we now have pure cultures of Pediococcus and Lactobacillus
available to homebrewers, I would think that natural souring would
be reserved for special experiments or particularly dedicated purists.

To relate a slightly humourous story, I recently "brewed" a batch of
beer strictly for the purposes of taking a photograph of blowoff.
I took a can of 3-year-old extract syrup (don't recall the brand even),
poured it into a carboy with 5 gallons of hot tapwater, and dumped in
two packages of some dry yeast (don't recall the brand).  This
fermented as expected and I got the photo.  Five weeks later, I needed
the airlock, so I replaced it with a wad of paper towels.  Maybe
another month later I wanted the carboy, so I started dumping this
"beer" that had been sitting out, getting occasional sunlight, down
the drain.  I didn't taste it, but I could swear it smelled just like
Rodenbach Grand Cru.  I was simply too lazy to save some of the
dregs and who knows what it tasted like anyway, but since I didn't
have a record of the brand or age of the extract or the yeast, I
thought it was pretty much a lost cause.  Rather proves the importance
of good record-keeping, even for throw-away batches, no?

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com


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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 15:06:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: KennyEddy at aol.com
Subject: Belgian Water Recipe

Big round of applause for Dave Draper's contribution of Jacques Bertens'
Belgian water profiles.  I know that the question of "how do I make a <insert
Belgian brand here> clone?" comes up often on the HBD, so these figures
should be helpful to those trying to be as "authentic" as possible.

Here's a "recipe" for water based on the Willebrok/Rumst profile, where Duvel
is located.  I picked this out of the bunch since of the breweries listed,
it's arguably the most recognizable/cloned of those given to American
brewers, and the water profile seemed fairly middle-of-the-road for the ten
that were given.  This should make it quite suitable as an "all-Belgian"
brewing water.

Into 5 gallons of distilled or reverse-osmosis-filtered water, dissolve:

1.5 grams (3/8 tsp) epsom salt
2.3 grams (1/2 tsp) baking soda
2.6 grams (3/4 tsp) calcium chloride
1.6 grams (1/2 tsp) gypsum

Target:

Ca   CO3  Cl   Mg   Na   SO4
68   143  60    8   33    70

Results:

Ca   CO3  Cl   Mg   Na   SO4
56    87  66    8   33    75

CO3 (and therefore alkalinity) is reduced in this formulation, which should
cause you no harm (and may in fact make your brewing life easier).  If you do
find your mash pH is too low, perhaps from use of roasted grain, add chalk
(*not* gypsum) directly to the mash until your pH is in range (chalk =
calcium carbonate).  Adding gypsum will drive the already-moderately-high
sulfate way up which may adversely affect hop character.

The teasoon measures given above are approximate at best due to the variation
in spoon size and compaction of salts (as well as "scooping technique")
you're likely to encounter.  Adding salts by weight is the only sure way to
get the right amount in.  However, since this is sort of an "average"
profile, there should be no serious impact from any errors.  Try to use
*good-quality* baker's measuring spoons for best accuracy.

Note for extract brewers: since you don't know the water makeup that went
into the extract you're using, water treatment is a bit of a guess, though
any amount of salts between zero and the quantites given should do.

If you're serious about brewing water, you simply MUST get yourself some
calcium chloride (CaCl2).  It's available from HopTech (1-800-HOPTECH) as
well as Sunset Suds (sunsetsuds at aol.com).  Your only other common sources of
calcium are gypsum, which is no good if you need low sulfate (which is much
of the time), and chalk, which doesn't dissolve well in water (though it can
be added directly to the mash).  Chalk also increases alkalinity -- usually
not a good thing.  Chloride from CaCl2 is much more tolerable at "high"
levels than sulfate from gypsum or alkalinity from chalk.

*****

Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
KennyEddy at aol.com
http://members.aol.com/kennyeddy


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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 16:41:48 -0600
From: billp4 at juno.com (William H Plotner)
Subject: Cherry Wheat Ale

Greetings HBD'ers,
Has anyone out there tried to duplicate Sam Adams Cherry Wheat Ale? I am
looking for an extract recipe that comes kinda close. Thanks for your
help
Bill Plotner
Colorado Springs, Co
Billp4 at juno.com

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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 20:15:48 -0300 (GMT-0300)
From: Jorge Blasig - IQ <gisalb at elmer.fing.edu.uy>
Subject: Extract to malt conversion and crystal malt preparation

Dear friends,

I have been brewing with success using a certain malt extract. I am ready 
to start all grain now and need some help from you.
I will prepare a new batch as soon as I get some information. I have a 
pilsner malt which I get from a major malster ( I believe it is similar to 
pale malt, if I am not wrong ) and will roast it to get something like 
amber malt. I also have a recipe which  indicates that I need light malt  
extract and amber malt extract. 
I would appreciate that somebody explains me the way to calculate extract to 
malt conversions (light malt extract to light malt, and amber malt extract 
to amber malt). I would also need wheat malt extract to wheat malt conversion.

I would also appreciate if somebody can explain me the procedure to 
prepare crystal malt from pilsner malt or barley. I will need crystal 
malt in the future and do not have any way to get it.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Jorge Blasig

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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 21:39:44 -0400
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Malt mills

Rob Kienle posted a summary of responses he got to his inquiry about the
Valley mill.  In his summary, he mentioned that the Valley mill was "about
$70 less than the malt mill".

I don't have the price of the Valley mill in front of me, but I can
guarantee you it is not $70 less than the malt mill, and if it is, you
should consider shopping elsewhere.

While the Valley mill may very well be a good mill, I have had a
Schmidlings malt mill (non-adjustable) for 2 or 3 years, and I wouldn't
trade it for anything.

These mills, along with a couple others, were compared in a Zymurgy article
a few years ago, and as I recall, nothing topped the maltmill for quality
of crush, speed of throughput, and ease of cranking, and the costs of the
different roller type mills were all in the same ballpark.

Just call me a very satisfied customer.  Good work Jack!


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