---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  recirculating, batch sparging (Gary Knull)
  Scottish Vs. Scotch (John Goldthwaite)
  CO2 saturation: one last time ("Dave Draper")
  yeast cuturing ("Anton Verhulst")
  Re:all-grain, small batches (PickleMan)
  CO2 Toxicity ("David R. Burley")
  A cool occurence of marginal relevance (George De Piro)
  Lucky Jethro ("Rob Moline")
  Re: sour mashing (Scott Murman)
  Re: Malt Mills (Pricing) (Rob Kienle)
  Moving Refrigerators (Mark Polnasek)
  Stout question, Mk II (Matthew Arnold)
  moving freezers (kathy)
  bottle conditioned beer yeast (korz)
  Amber extract (korz)
  Getting tougher to ship entries to Brew Competitions (Wes Clement)
  adjuncts and head, yeast questions (James R. Layton 972.952.3718 JLAY)
  Version 4.0 - "The Wine Tours Project" ("Barry B. Floyd")
  Fruit and beer (David Johnson)
  Aussie hops, Coopers and CO2 toxicity (Andy Walsh)
  Princeton Homebrews side of the Pat Babcocks bad experience. (Small Change)
  Seeking Hops Info (Jeff Hewit)


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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 22:16:34 -0600
From: Gary Knull <gknull at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
Subject: recirculating, batch sparging

Since no one else responded to Linus Hall's (Friday June 6) note on batch
sparging, I'll put in my bit. I, too, have resorted to batch sparging. Seven
years ago when I designed and built my five gallon RIMS, I at first tried to
use a sparging ring, a flat spiral of copper tubing with holes drilled in
it, laid on top of the grain bed in my cylindrical combination mash /lauter
tun. I was immediately disenchanted with the tedious process of standing
there and monitoring the inflow and outflow from the tun over a period of 30
to 60 minutes. I think the ring was retired after the second batch.

What I started doing then and have done ever since is to underlet the
drained grain bed with sparge water. The OD of the hose from the sparge tank
is the same as the ID of the recirculating hose, so I stick the one hose
into the other and gravity forces the water backwards through the mash
heater chamber, then through the impeller type recirculating pump (now
turned off) and through the v-wire false bottom under the grain bed. I
introduce seven quarts of water this way which serves to de-compact the
grain bed. Then, after pulling the sparge tube out of the recirculation
hose, I turn on the pump and heater and recirculate the sparge water for ten
minutes at 75 degrees C (168F). The recirculating hose just lays on top of
the grain bed and I adjust the pump speed and pump outlet valve to keep the
liquid level just above the top of the grain. Then I'm free to go and do
other things till my timer goes off. I then drain this sparge liquid into
the kettle for five timed minutes before repeating this same sparge process
two more times for a total of 21 quarts of sparge water and a time of 45
minutes. It may be no faster than a traditional sparge but I don't have to
preside over it nearly as closely.

I typically get 80% efficiency. I tried the traditional sparge method again
once about a year ago and didn't get any better efficiency so, of course, I
went back to my method which is so much less tedious. To reduce tannin
leaching I used to correct the pH right in the sparge tank with either
phosphoric or sulfuric acid. Now I use RO purified water which doesn't seem
to leach tannins. Try it --- you'll like it.

Gary Knull
Edmonton, AB
Canada


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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 09:43:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: ir358 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (John Goldthwaite)
Subject: Scottish Vs. Scotch

Ello Malt Hounds,
I got a kick out of Ian's anecdote about his Grandfather's 
regularity, but I'm not sure that's the answer that Sam was 
lookin' for. I'm a far cry from a style geek, and Ian will 
probably want to beat me severely about the head and shoulders
with a caber for saying this, but a Scottish Ale is roughly
akin to a bitter. A Scotch Ale is LOTS heavier and usually VERY
alcoholic. More like a barleywine or a super heavy stout. Try
McEwan's Scotch ale to get a handle on what I feel is an excell-
ent beer. I'd recommend several of these before hitting the links!


- --
"Gonna drink all day, gonna rock all night,
The law come to getcha if you don't walk right..."[Garcia/Hunter]

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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 09:16:24 -6
From: "Dave Draper" <ddraper at utdallas.edu>
Subject: CO2 saturation: one last time

Dear Friends,

I promise I'll shut up about this after this post!

Al drew an analogy between a sugar-water solution and beer/wort to
uphold the *concept* of supersaturation.  I am quite familiar with
such topics and do not dispute that it occurs in many systems; my
claim is that CO2 in beer is not one of them.  I've replied offline
to Al's post, but in a nutshell it is not safe to generalize to
liquid-gas systems from observations on solid-liquid equilibria. 
Crystallization kinetics differ from the gas phase situation in many
ways.  I will step back from my comment that "no excess CO2 = no
toxicity" because I was of the mistaken belief that it was the
contention of posters that only *excess* CO2 would be toxic.  I
don't know near enough about yeast metabolism to comment on the
effect of CO2 concentrations (at saturation or below) on it.  I will
say that I found extremely plausible David Robinson's suggestion
that low pH is the culprit for some of the observations that high
CO2 affects yeast activity.

Dave Whitman rightly points out that the rate of diffusion of CO2
out of beer is hugely outpaced by the production rate of CO2 by
fermentation, and that bubbling is what keeps supersaturation from
occurring.  This is part of what I was trying to say, and what Bob
McCowan did say: that if bubbling is occurring, supersaturation does
not prevail, almost by definition.  I can see that in a fermentor
that is "ideal" for this purpose, i.e. perfectly smooth-sided with
*no* nucleation sites, and if the beer is *perfectly* trub-free
(remember "frictionless pulleys" from physics class?), then
supersaturation is possible in principle. I would argue that in
almost any *practical* setting, where these perfect conditions do
not apply, that supersaturation will not take place-- there will be
plenty of bubble nucleation.  But Dave's point about the conflicting
info we're getting on this being possibly due to some reports coming
from quarters where the "perfect" setting is more closely achieved
(i.e. some commercial setups?) is a very good one. 

Bottom line: I don't believe supersaturation happens in practical 
settings except under very local and very transitory conditions; it 
is not a characteristic of "the system" of fermenting beer + CO2.

Cheers,

Dave in Dallas
- ---
*****************************************************************************
   Dave Draper, Dept Geosciences, U. Texas at Dallas, Richardson TX 75083
   ddraper at utdallas.edu (commercial email unwelcome) WWW: hbd.org/~ddraper
                 Beer page: http://hbd.org/~ddraper/beer.html
 ...yeast contain the mechanism of their own destruction.
    ---Charlie Scandrett


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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 97 10:24:42 -0400
From: "Anton Verhulst" <verhulst at zk3.dec.com>
Subject: yeast cuturing


From: DD <dunn at tilc.com>
>Anyone got suggestions on the best place to start (no pun intended) my
>education on culturing yeast?  The H.Brewer's Companion?  One of
>Miller's books?  Source for the yeast?  materials?

I recomment that you buy the Advanced Yeast Culture kit from the Brewers
Resource (800-827-3983).  It contains all the materials to get started and
a very good booklet (20 or 30 pages).  If you get hooked on culturing
you'll soon outgrow the kit (it's nore really "advanced" :-) but it's a
great way to get started. 

- --Tony Verhulst - no affiliation with BR

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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 07:31:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: PickleMan <wrp2 at axe.humboldt.edu>
Subject: Re:all-grain, small batches 

In response to Andrews question, I think that 45 min sparge for a 4 gal
batch is too long.  I just did a 2.5 gallon test batch of an Alt beer and
the sparge took about 25 min.  It seems that would be right as I am only
doing 1/2 the wort of a 5 gal batch.  Relax, yadda, yadda, yadda...

PickleMan
wrp2 at axe.humboldt.edu


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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 11:09:35 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: CO2 Toxicity

Brewsters:

We have been reading speculation about "CO2 toxicity" for some months now=

without a real database of information.  Just anecdotal stories.  I suspe=
ct
this has its basis in the oft-repeated alcohol toxicity response of yeast=
s.

AlK suggests that he missed an opportunity to gather some information in =
a
real parallel situation, a laudable idea,  but I doubt it would have prov=
en
anything.  AlK and others talk about CO2 super-saturation and AlK talks
about his exposure to a supersaturation of sugar as an example.  An even
better example of supersaturation is gained every time we open a beer
bottle.  The CO2 is supersaturated at this new pressure.  Lucklily for us=

CO2 comes to equilibrium slowly (most of the time!).  Given the commonali=
ty
of this phenomenon, I agree that CO2 can become supersaturated, but doubt=

its importance in fermentation at atmospheric pressure.

In the absence of real, scientifically collected information, I remain
skeptical. I do not mean to be critical of speculation ( or AlK and other=
s
personally) it is just that  I can explain all of the observations, so fa=
r,
simply by postulating premature flocculation of the yeast - which is a
well-recognized phenomenon among ale yeasts, especially.  British brewers=

often ( at least in days gone by) rouse their yeast by stirring the
fermenting wort or by "dropping" the wort/beer after two or three days of=

fermentation. .  This rousing does cause a release of CO2, but more
importantly it puts the yeast cell in contact with more wort and complete=
s
the fermentation. Others use mixed strains of yeasts have flocculant and
non-flocculant strains to promote attentuation.  The "powdery" strain kee=
ps
the fermenting wort roused automatically and the primary strain in contac=
t
with the wort to allow it to finish.

DeClerk goes so far as to say that *any*  yeast will ferment out a normal=

wort to 100% attenuation if it is agitated enough.  Flocculation is the
mechanism whereby yeasts become less attenuative, despite Wyeast's tables=

of % attenuation.  The earlier in a fermentation a yeast flocculates, the=

less the attenuation. =

Flocculation - a colloidal phenomenon - is dependent on many things in th=
e
wort including things like pH , sugar content, salt content, temperature,=

agitation (ergo  fermenter dimensions) ,  etc. as well as genetics. I
presume Wyeast's tables were generated by comparing small fermentations,
without agitation other than the escaping CO2.  However, as we know these=

are only approximations and based on the number of comments in the HBD ca=
n
be either higher or lower than these numbers depending on lots of things.=
 =


We are  familiar with the caution to cool beer slowly to prevent prematur=
e
flocculation and thereby get a "stuck" (I.e. under attentuated)
fermentation or undercarbonated vessel. Too cool a fermentation will ofte=
n
result in a high FG since the yeast were not agitated by the CO2 bubbling=

fast enough to keep the yeast de-flocculated and to finish the job. =

Agitating a stuck fermentation will often re-start it as will raising the=

temperature a few degrees.  All explicable by mechanical de-flocculation =
of
the yeast without reference to CO2 toxicity. =


One contributor notes that he can prolong the fermentation of his aquariu=
m
CO2 generator by adjusting the  pH up after it has fermented for a while
and slowed down.  This is a well recognized phenomenon to mead makers in
which honey based liquors do not have the buffer capacity of malt based
wort. A mid-fermentation pH adjustment or addition of buffers causes a me=
ad
to ferment out in a few days instead  of a few months or years. A similar=

phenomenon should prevail for pure sugar fermentations.  The problem with=

too low a pH is that the enzymes are outside their optimal  operative pH
range. Adjusting the pH back up into optimal range allows the yeast to
continue. =


Neither of these phenomena, the agitation to re-start a fermentation nor
the pH adjustment need CO2 toxicity to explain these well-known phenomeno=
n.

An interesting experiment would be one in which a wort fermentation is
carried out in  pressure vessels at various pressures of CO2 to see the
effect of CO2 concentration. Both bottom and top fermenters should be
compared.  These could be agitated to eliminate this flocculation variabl=
e
and use malt worts to control the pH swings. An experiment like this woul=
d
demonstrate whether or not yeast show a true CO2 toxicity response. =


Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =


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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 11:33:31 -0700
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro)
Subject: A cool occurence of marginal relevance

     Hi all,
     
     I just have to brag a bit, forgive me...
     
     Last year, a friend of mine (and fellow homebrew club member) went to 
     Belgium.  He brought with him club T-shirts to give to brewers who 
     were kind enough to give him tours.
     
     A few weeks ago a different pair of club members went to the Cantillon 
     brewery, unannounced.  To their surprise, the brewer was wearing our 
     club's T-shirt!
     
     We might not have the biggest club in the world, but the brewer at 
     Cantillon wears a Malted Barley Appreciation Society T-shirt to 
     work!!!
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro  (President, Malted Barley Appreciation Society)

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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 97 09:38:28 PDT
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at kansas.net>
Subject: Lucky Jethro

 >From: Andy Walsh <awalsh at crl.com.au>
 >Subject: brew free or die!
 >Would you believe me if I said that it is standard practice on
 >commercial 4/6 roll malt mills to have anti-explosive devices fitted?
 >Feeling lucky Jethro? Just remove those anti explosive devices from your
 >mill...
 	Of course I feel lucky! But, everyone knows I crush each and every
 kernel
 of malt by hand with a jeweler's hammer and a pair of micro-surgical
 forceps!				;-)
 
 Cheers!
 Jethro Gump
 
 Rob Moline
 Little Apple Brewing Company
 Manhattan, Kansas
 
 "Micro-brew is like a box of chocolates, you never know what your gonna
 get!"
 



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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 09:08:48 -0700
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: Re: sour mashing 


Al K(TM) wrote:
> Given
> that we now have pure cultures of Pediococcus and Lactobacillus
> available to homebrewers, I would think that natural souring would
> be reserved for special experiments or particularly dedicated purists.

I'm going to brew a sour weisse sometime this summer, and I'm
specifically going to avoid using the lacto cultures that are
available.  The reason is that they will "take over" whatever
equipment you use to ferment them in.  I've been told that they infect
the airlocks, fermenter, rubber stopper, etc.  Supposedly, lacto
cultures are exceedingly difficult to dislodge once they've taken hold
(your glass carboy will have micro-cracks in it that these beasties
enjoy).  On a homebrew level, I don't have the resources to devote an
entire set-up to lacto ferments, so I'm going with the sour mashing
alternative.  This way I'll only contaminate a 1 gallon container
while I sour mash.  So, there's a very practical reason to sour mash
other than the Rheinsegtoebottolsfjsdl.

SM


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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 12:06:04 -0500
From: Rob Kienle <rkienle at interaccess.com>
Subject: Re: Malt Mills (Pricing)

Randy wrote...

> I don't have the price of the Valley mill in front of me, but I can
> guarantee you it is not $70 less than the malt mill, and if it is, you
> should consider shopping elsewhere.

Whoops. Right you are. JSP's web page has been moved (apparently) and I
couldn't find it when I made my post yesterday to confirm the pricing,
which I remember to be higher. The Valley Mill is about $40 cheaper, not
$70 as I previously stated (vs. the comparable, *adjustable* MM model).
That is, however, still something like a 40% difference. 

Several people who responded to my original post made sure to point out
that you can't really go wrong with either mill. They're both high
quality, work well, and it seems that their respective users are quite
pleased with them. I didn't mean to dis the MM as much as just point out
the results of my polling about the VM. I do have some concern about the
non-parallel adjustment feature of the MM and whether that's a plus or
minus in the real world. But heck, I may still take it on the chin and
spend the extra bucks on the MM so I can have the super heavy-duty
kryptonite bearings. :)

Thanks for offering the correction, Rick.

- -- 
Cheers4beers,
Rob Kienle
Chicago, IL
rkienle at interaccess.com


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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 13:14:32 -0400
From: Mark Polnasek <dolt at mnsinc.com>
Subject: Moving Refrigerators

	George,
	Years ago, I helped my father with his refrigeration business. We moved a
lot of fridges around town.  As others have suggested, you must let them
sit for 24 hours before trying them out. The refrigerant is mixed with oil
and laying the unit down gets this mix into places in the system where the
liquid shouldn't be.  Standing upright for 24 hours fixes this.
	However, this dosen't sound like your problem. There is not much
electrical stuff on older fridges. But the controls do get cranky when
moved after 20 years in the same position. First problem might be moving
the temperature control. If someone turned the control to off after 20
years of being set in the middle, then that could be your problem. A liquid
filled bulb resides in the fridge itself and feeds to the thermostat. This
liquid expands a bellows inside the control which affects a micro switch to
start and stop the compressor depending upon the temperature the bulb
senses. Radical movements of this control after years of not moving could
throw the bellows and micro switch out of whack. Try some radical movements
to restore it. Access to this control is tough. You can get to some by
removing the knob and hoping there is an access plate. Otherwise you have
to remove the plastic joining the inner and outer shells and go in through
the fiberglass insulations. Nasty stuff. Wear gloves.
	You could also get to the wires and bypass the thermostat and use an
external one.
	The second thing that could be wrong is the relay. The relay is located
near the compressor and is a little plastic box about 2x2x4 inches. This
could have taken a shock from moving and be misbehaving. Try to disassemble
it and clean any contacts you find. The thing could be full of roaches too.
	The last item is the thermal overload. It's a safety device that is
mounted directly on the compressor. Being a tiny temperature sensor, it
could have gone bad from getting knocked around.
	Some of the newer fridges have automatic defrost timers too. Yours could
be in the defrost cycle.   
	Good luck. My dad and I have fixed many old fridges by fooling with these
components. We did however, replace a lot of these parts to get them going.
                    Mark P.
	   

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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 17:28:41 GMT
From: mra at skyfry.com (Matthew Arnold)
Subject: Stout question, Mk II

Here's Mk II of my attempted Stout recipe. I realize that, for the
most part, I am not using British/Irish ingredients, but I think it
should be a credible stout nevertheless. I intended this to have a
lower O.G. a la draught Guinness.

Poke in the Eye with a Sharp Stout
3.3# Northwestern Gold LME
1#   Northwestern Gold DME
1#   Two-row
1#   Roasted barley
 .5#  Flaked barley
3 oz Fuggles pellets (4.0% AAU--60 minutes)
Yeast cake of Wyeast #1338 European Ale

According to SUDS, the O.G. should be 1.043, assuming 75% efficiency
on the partial mash, which is admittedly probably being charitable.
The Fuggles cranks it up to ~45 IBU using Tinseth's figures, but I
will be using a hop bag and the blowoff method so the IBUs will be
lowered accordingly.

I figured the 1338 would give it that maltiness I'm looking for. Will
1# of roasted barley give it enough color? I _do not_ want this to be
heavy in black malt bitterness (e.g. from black patent). If it
wouldn't be dark enough, I probably would substitute 1# of Dark DME
instead of Gold.

Thanks in advance to the collective!
  Matt (6 weeks and counting until fatherhood . . .)

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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 12:01:25 -0500
From: kathy <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: moving freezers

Geo De Piro's refrigerator may have suffered what many home compressor
systems do.  Sitting in place and vibrating away for years and years,
the copper tends to chrystalize or harden.  Then, the moving van pulls
up and the frige/freezer goes on a dolly and bumps down steps, up and
down ramps, hits a few pot holes and then the procedure is repeated in
reverse.  The hardened copper develops hair line cracks and over a
few/days or weeks loses compressent enuf to cool very poorly.

I'm a Realtor and we tell people to leave freezers/friges in place
unless they are relatively new because of the high failure rate after
moving.  Save the moving costs and buy something newer.

When I buy an old freezer for my life as a brewer, I tell them the
problems and say if it runs well for a couple months I'll give them an
extra pittance in addition to the pittance I offered initially.
(Actually, freezers usually get given away for the hauling.) Hauling old
freezers around and then paying disposal plus freon disposal charge is
way down the list from washing bottles, which is way down ......

cheers,  jim booth, ceo of boo-the-bum brewing co, lansing, mi



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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 12:55:33 -0500 (CDT)
From: korz at xnet.com
Subject: bottle conditioned beer yeast

Dana writes:
	So - how long does the small amount of yeast at the bottom of a 
        bottle conditioned beer last?  Seems to me it has to be longer 
        than the few days/weeks we can keep a starter in the fridge.  So 
        could you save a couple of bottles of bottle conditioned brew 
        from a previous batch and use the yeast later (how much later?) 
        to create a starter when needed?

You are equating two different things which is why it seems weird to you.
When we culture yeast from the bottom of a bottle, all we really need
is for *one* cell to still be alive.  With a starter, we would like 80 or
even 90% of the yeast to still be viable.  You certainly can use beer
that is many years old for yeast culturing.  Have you heard the story of
Flag Porter?  It is made with yeast that was revived from bottle-conditioned
beers rescued from an old shipwreck (late 1800's, I believe).  As a beer,
Flag Porter is *not* the "original" it pretends to be, but it does prove
that you can revive yeast from very old dregs!

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com


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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 13:25:38 -0500 (CDT)
From: korz at xnet.com
Subject: Amber extract

Jorge asks about amber extract and suggests that he make it by
toasting some Pilsner malt to an amber colour to substitute for
amber extract.

There are no "rules" that the extract manufacturers follow when
making amber or dark extracts.  Some use high-kilned malts such
as Vienna or Munich.  Others, will simply add some crystal malt.
Others, may use a very small amount of dark malt.  When it comes
to dark extract, there can be even more variation.

One thing I'm pretty sure of, is that of the 20 or so brands of
extracts I've tried, none of the amber extracts tasted as if they
contained any significant amount of toasted malt.  Roasting
Pilsner malt lightly is basically making "toasted malt" and
not "high-kilned" malt because in the latter, the temperature is
raised *before* the malt is dry.  This is a big difference in
taste.  You may be able to achieve something similar (or even
make crystal malt at home) if you first soak the Pilsner malt
till it has absorbed quite a bit of water and *then* put it in
the oven.  If you cover the pot in which you are doing the
heating for a while and keep the temperature around 150 to 170F
(65-75C), you may make something that resembles crystal malt.
You then have to remove the cover, raise the heat, and stir
periodically to dry it.


The difference in making high-kilned malt is that the temperature
is significantly higher than the 150-170F and you never cover
the pot.  I don't have my books here, so I can't tell you the
exact temperatures for each type of grain, but I believe they
are included in my article on grains at The Brewery.  Hopefully,
the correction I sent them (F vs. C) has been included.




Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com



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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 14:01:00 -0600
From: wesc at mails.imed.com (Wes Clement)
Subject: Getting tougher to ship entries to Brew Competitions

     
     
     Busted...The local UPS service (Angleton Texas) now opens and inspects 
     all packages regardless of what is written on the outside (FOOD or 
     YEAST SAMPLES). They would not ship anything in glass and especially 
     if it is alcoholic in nature. The same goes with the US postal 
     service. Its getting to where you can't enter any home brew 
     competitions unless you drive it there yourself. This there any way 
     around this.
     
     
     Wes

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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 15:57:21 -0500
From: layton at sc45.dseg.ti.com (James R. Layton 972.952.3718 JLAY)
Subject: adjuncts and head, yeast questions

Al Korzonas asked for comments regarding the effect of flaked corn or
rice on head retention. I've had some experience with flaked corn
in a Belg. strong ale, two cream ales, and a classic Am. pilsner. My 
experience has been that head retention was a bit weak in the cream ales
(18% flaked corn) but still as good or better than mass-market American 
lager. The Belg. strong ale (12 lbs pils malt, 1 lb sucrose, 1 lb flaked
corn) had great head retention and so does my current classic Am. pilsner
(24% flaked corn). I probably reduced the head quality of the cream ales
by resting too long at 122F. Brew and learn. 

I am convinced that if you don't go overboard with the low/no protein 
adjuncts and if the base malt and mash schedule are properly matched 
then head retention can be excellent. Some beer styles greatly benefit
from the use of these adjuncts.

- ----------------------------------------

I've got questions regarding yeast storage. I've been washing yeast
from the fermenter using the double rinse with distilled water technique
given in the yeast faq. I then store the jar of yeast slurry and water 
in a refrigerator until needed. If less than two weeks old I pitch
the slurry directly into the fermenter. If it is older, I take out 
about 1/8 teaspoon of yeast and make a starter. I've used this technique 
for a couple of years and it has worked well enough. I don't have any 
notes to document this but it seems that the longer the yeast has been 
stored (up to three months in my experience), the longer it takes for the 
starter to actively ferment (no surprise). 

The questions: Is the yeast going into a progressively deeper state of 
dormancy, or is it just dying off cell by cell? (Note: the stored jar of 
yeast slurry still smells yeasty, no foul odors) Can pitching a starter 
with a high number of dead cells cause problems? Has anyone with a 
microscope and stain taken a look to see what this storage method actually 
does to the yeast?

BTW, I've recently begun culturing yeast from slants and recommend this
to all as an interesting extension of this hobby.  

Jim Layton, Howe, TX

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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 15:02:14 -0400
From: "Barry B. Floyd" <floydb at wine-tours.com>
Subject: Version 4.0 - "The Wine Tours Project"

                   http://www.wine-tours.com/

"The Wine Tours Project" is happy to announce version 4.0 of
its WWWeb Site. The upgrade includes a new look and feel,
easier navigation and new information (e.g. business listings
and wine-related info pages).

During the next two weeks The Project will be completing internal
testing of its new geographic mapping technology, as a beta site
for MapInfo Corporation's Internet-based mapping solution "MapX".




"The Wine Tours Project" presents regularly updated wine-related 
business listings (7,300+) and info pages (10+), including: 

     Wholesalers, Retailers, Importers and Exporters 
     Suppliers, Publishers, Associations and Consultants 
     Winery Tours, Storers and Others 
     The Wine Library with: Wine Links, Care, Words, etc. 
     Info. on: Wine grapes and styles, Goodies and History 

Comments and suggestions are always welcome. 

How may we improve our site? 


+--------------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Barry B. Floyd      \\\                      floydb at wine-tours.com |
| Project Manager     \\\    The Wine Tours Project - 7000+ listings |
|                     \\\                                            |
| RPI Alum. '84'87'88 \\\http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/7331 |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 17:47:32 -0700
From: David Johnson <dmjalj at inwave.com>
Subject: Fruit and beer

In reading the recent discussion about fruit in beer, I was thinking that 
much like beer (or for that matter almost anything) the good taste of 
fruit is a balance between different flavors. One of the flavors that 
have to be balanced is the balance between sweet and acid. When you put 
fruit in beer, (and the more experienced brewers can correct me) most of 
the simple sugars will be fermented out and most of the residual 
sweetness must be supplied by the malt to balance the acid. Thus in 
formulating a beer recipe to support fruit, one would want just enough 
residual sweetness from the malt to balance the acidity of the fruit
without overpowering the fruit flavors (which is why you're making a 
fruit beer in the first place). Thus a case can be made for toning down 
the maltiness of the beer with honey with a more delicately flavored 
fruit and a case can be made for malty sweetness with an acidic or more 
strongly flavored fruit. It is all about balance. I wouldn't want to make 
a very bitter beer to support a acidic fruit. I also wouldn't want to 
make a heavy sweet beer for a delicately flavored non-acidic
fruit. There is a very interesting reference on the Mead Maker's Page:
www.atd.ucar.edu/rdp/gfc/mead/mead.html
There is a list of the acidic content and the sugar content of fruits. 
There is a lot that can be learned from the meadmakers about the use of 
fruit in brewing. I guess they might be a little more tuned in to fruit. 
It is worth lurking on the Mead Lovers digest if you are interested in 
fruit beers. Certainly any searchers for fruit ideas should include mead 
makers in there sources.
        Also, although I have only had one of Brimstones fruit beers 
(Raspberry Porter), I found that one to be a little heavy handed and much 
preferred our local Wisconsin  product New Glarus Brewings "Belgian Red" 
(it may not be Belgian but it is good).
        Dave


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Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:36:52 -0700
From: Andy Walsh <awalsh at crl.com.au>
Subject: Aussie hops, Coopers and CO2 toxicity

Hi.
A few points:

Graham Wheeler comments on Aussie hops:
I live in Sydney (34 deg) and have grown hops here. They grow quickly
and strongly, and do flower (barely) at his latitude, but the bitterness
level was extremely low (good for salads!). Friends in Melbourne (36
deg) grow hops and brew with them OK. There is quite some difference
with the same rootstock.

POR are grown in Victoria, as are Opal and Victoria, plus several
others. They are all high alpha types. I think the main reason aroma
varieties are not grown in quantity is because the breweries are
paranoid about adding hop aroma in the first place, rather than growing
problems (although this may well be the case too).

Several aroma varieties are grown in Tassie in small "trial" quantities,
and are available for homebrewers. I believe the best quality hops in
these parts come from New Zealand. They grow some excellent hops -
usually triploid types - eg. triploid "Hallertauer" 8.3%aa. A large
proportion of NZ hops are exported to Europe, where they are also highly
regarded. Being an imported plant to NZ, which lacks many of the
diseases and pests common to European fields, NZ fields do not require
such heavy use of insecticides/fungicides for a decent crop.

I also highly recommend Neves "Hops" book, even if it does have a
British bias!

*****
Coopers has sprung up here again.
Sorry Dave, I must disagree about the Coopers phenolic being age
independent. I am a real Coopers nut (you know this, Dave!) and firmly
believe that the phenolic develops from age and or poor handling. It is
almost invariably present in the bottle to lesser or greater degree, and
on draught in *Sydney* as well, but go to Adelaide and it's a different
beast. The Coopers there is characterised by luscious fruity
pear/apple/banana, rather than yeasty phenolic. I lived in Adelaide for
17 years before moving to Sydney, BTW, and really miss good Coopers
here. It exists, but is rare.

Dave Sapsis wrote a good summary a short time ago on Coopers on these
pages. 
******

CO2 toxicity:
Maybe the usual textbooks don't talk about this much, but there is a
fair amount of data in the journals. Certainly one of the side effects
of high trub content is to aid fermentation by providing nucleation
sites for CO2. One account (Lentini - don't have the paper handy) found
that not only does high trub content aid fermentation, but that by
substituting kieselguhr for trub, similar effects were noted (ie. lower
esters and faster fermentation). Trub has other adverse effects on beer
quality so probably should not be routinely used as a fermentation aid.

I borrowed some kieselguhr from a micro recently and now add it to my
primary, since I have very clear wort. I don't have any scientific data
showing better fermentations, but whereas I *used* to have low AE, I now
tend to get good AE. Although I cannot categorically state that the DE
additions have helped, it *has* been shown elsewhere, and it gives me
peace of mind.

Bentonite is another one said to do similar things and may be easier to
find. It also acts as a protein adsorber and thus aids clarity too. I
believe winemakers sometimes add bentonite along with the yeast, to aid
fermentation. Having more alcohol and less yeast nutrients, they would
tend to run into more fermentation disorders than we do, so this may be
one to try out.

I don't know about sodium bicarbonate - increasing pH during
fermentation is generally not considered wise.

Andy

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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 22:43:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Small Change <schd at pluto.njcc.com>
Subject: Princeton Homebrews side of the Pat Babcocks bad experience.

	Recently, it was brought to my attention that Pat Babcock had been
to my store store twice and I was not there during published store hours. 
For my business it was unfortunate that Mr. Babcock did not call me after
and explain that he was disappointed and I was not given a chance to help
Mr. Babcock out before he posted to all the homebrewers in the world that
my store was not professionally run.  I regret any customer leaving my
store dissatisfied, I have contacted Mr. Babcock and asked him why he did
not call me if he had a problem and I would happily rectify it.  I would
be glad to offer Mr. Babcock a credit for his time lost. If I lost one
customer for any reason with my store, it could mean the difference
between me staying in business or going under - honestly, there really is
not much money in running a homebrew store and I need all the business I
can get.

	Realistically, there will be times when a one person operation
will not be able to be open at all the posted hours.  Running a homebrew
store alone is not easy, and hiring another person I found to be a
financial mistake for the amount of money the store brings in.  For the
first 2 years I ran my store alone, the store was open 10AM-9PM, 7 days a
week, 75 hours a week [I would not recommend this for any person to have
these hours!] Since May 97, at the insistency of my friends and family, I
reduced the hours to 59 hours a week.  I do my best to keep those hours,
sometimes it is not possible since my family all have health problems and
their well-being is most important to me.  They need me to help them out,
there will be days that I have to take them to the Emergency Room and get
to work a little late.  I admit, I have been closed or busy because my dad
and mother were both in the hospital for two months last winter, my car
didn't start, I had to go to the bathroom, needed fo od, had to go to the
post office, or there was a fire down the street and I stepped out for 5
minutes because I was concerned.  [For the most part, my customers all
seemed to understand].  If I have to leave, I always do this when I feel
business is slow. I am doing the best I can do, given the circumstances. 
I am as human as any homebrewer is, and I'm sure that if Pat Babcock has
to take a break from work to attend to his perceived needs as well, that
he will, and not expect someone who unfortunately was there twice looking
for him would not take it public firing.  It would be most unfortunate for
him if anyone took the same attitude he is taking towards me and my store. 

	    I too, like Mr. Babcock run a electronic mailing list for the Pale
Ales Home brew club.  I feel I have a responsibility not to bad press
local shops because I am just one opinion.  I believe that would be
self-serving and detrimental [and besides I am have done my best to
promote homebrewing, I really don't deserve this].  In fact, I can hardly
stand to hear negative thoughts from people be cause I do not know if it
is true or they are just not relaxed and like to vent a bout everything
that is not as perfect as they think they are. 

	I hope that because of Mr. Babcock's bad experience I will not
lose many customers because I've worked too hard to be brought down by his
bad experience.  I also feel that his insistency that it would be better
to tell everyone about this except me is equally insulting.  I hope he
learns how to handle bad luck with tact. As you can see by the simple fact
that we both had bad luck not connecting twice [which is rare for the
amount of hours I am open] he decides that interfering with my business
and way of living.  I know this just another pot shot on the internet, and
it will happen again. I believe Mr. Babcock is connected with the
administration of this list, gets PALE ALES e-mail, knows my phone number
and knows the implications of his post. I strongly object to his
non-comunicativeness with me, who could have solved his problem very
easily. From what I know about homebrewers, they are always willing to
talk before going public. This is quite disturbing to me.

Joe Bair
Owner, Princeton Homebrew


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Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 23:47:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jeff Hewit <jhewit at erols.com>
Subject: Seeking Hops Info

I recently acquired some hops for which I have not been able to find the
type of complete description that is generally available for most other
varieties.  They are Bramling Cross (6.0% AA) and WGV (6.5% AA).  Both are
English.  I have found some mention of Bramling Cross - apparently it is
used as an aroma yeast in ales - but have not seen any discussion as to its
characteristics or commercial examples.  I have not found any references to
the WGV.  Does anyone have any experience with either of these varieties?
TIA for any details.

======================================
Jeff Hewit
Midlothian, Virginia


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