HOMEBREW Digest #2440 Fri 13 June 1997

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  recirculating, batch sparging (Gary Knull)
  Scottish Vs. Scotch (John Goldthwaite)
  CO2 saturation: one last time ("Dave Draper")
  yeast cuturing ("Anton Verhulst")
  Re:all-grain, small batches (PickleMan)
  CO2 Toxicity ("David R. Burley")
  A cool occurence of marginal relevance (George De Piro)
  Lucky Jethro ("Rob Moline")
  Re: sour mashing (Scott Murman)
  Re: Malt Mills (Pricing) (Rob Kienle)
  Moving Refrigerators (Mark Polnasek)
  Stout question, Mk II (Matthew Arnold)
  moving freezers (kathy)
  bottle conditioned beer yeast (korz)
  Amber extract (korz)
  Getting tougher to ship entries to Brew Competitions (Wes Clement)
  adjuncts and head, yeast questions (James R. Layton 972.952.3718 JLAY)
  Version 4.0 - "The Wine Tours Project" ("Barry B. Floyd")
  Fruit and beer (David Johnson)
  Aussie hops, Coopers and CO2 toxicity (Andy Walsh)
  Princeton Homebrews side of the Pat Babcocks bad experience. (Small Change)
  Seeking Hops Info (Jeff Hewit)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 22:16:34 -0600 From: Gary Knull <gknull at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> Subject: recirculating, batch sparging Since no one else responded to Linus Hall's (Friday June 6) note on batch sparging, I'll put in my bit. I, too, have resorted to batch sparging. Seven years ago when I designed and built my five gallon RIMS, I at first tried to use a sparging ring, a flat spiral of copper tubing with holes drilled in it, laid on top of the grain bed in my cylindrical combination mash /lauter tun. I was immediately disenchanted with the tedious process of standing there and monitoring the inflow and outflow from the tun over a period of 30 to 60 minutes. I think the ring was retired after the second batch. What I started doing then and have done ever since is to underlet the drained grain bed with sparge water. The OD of the hose from the sparge tank is the same as the ID of the recirculating hose, so I stick the one hose into the other and gravity forces the water backwards through the mash heater chamber, then through the impeller type recirculating pump (now turned off) and through the v-wire false bottom under the grain bed. I introduce seven quarts of water this way which serves to de-compact the grain bed. Then, after pulling the sparge tube out of the recirculation hose, I turn on the pump and heater and recirculate the sparge water for ten minutes at 75 degrees C (168F). The recirculating hose just lays on top of the grain bed and I adjust the pump speed and pump outlet valve to keep the liquid level just above the top of the grain. Then I'm free to go and do other things till my timer goes off. I then drain this sparge liquid into the kettle for five timed minutes before repeating this same sparge process two more times for a total of 21 quarts of sparge water and a time of 45 minutes. It may be no faster than a traditional sparge but I don't have to preside over it nearly as closely. I typically get 80% efficiency. I tried the traditional sparge method again once about a year ago and didn't get any better efficiency so, of course, I went back to my method which is so much less tedious. To reduce tannin leaching I used to correct the pH right in the sparge tank with either phosphoric or sulfuric acid. Now I use RO purified water which doesn't seem to leach tannins. Try it --- you'll like it. Gary Knull Edmonton, AB Canada Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 09:43:59 -0400 (EDT) From: ir358 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (John Goldthwaite) Subject: Scottish Vs. Scotch Ello Malt Hounds, I got a kick out of Ian's anecdote about his Grandfather's regularity, but I'm not sure that's the answer that Sam was lookin' for. I'm a far cry from a style geek, and Ian will probably want to beat me severely about the head and shoulders with a caber for saying this, but a Scottish Ale is roughly akin to a bitter. A Scotch Ale is LOTS heavier and usually VERY alcoholic. More like a barleywine or a super heavy stout. Try McEwan's Scotch ale to get a handle on what I feel is an excell- ent beer. I'd recommend several of these before hitting the links! - -- "Gonna drink all day, gonna rock all night, The law come to getcha if you don't walk right..."[Garcia/Hunter] Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 09:16:24 -6 From: "Dave Draper" <ddraper at utdallas.edu> Subject: CO2 saturation: one last time Dear Friends, I promise I'll shut up about this after this post! Al drew an analogy between a sugar-water solution and beer/wort to uphold the *concept* of supersaturation. I am quite familiar with such topics and do not dispute that it occurs in many systems; my claim is that CO2 in beer is not one of them. I've replied offline to Al's post, but in a nutshell it is not safe to generalize to liquid-gas systems from observations on solid-liquid equilibria. Crystallization kinetics differ from the gas phase situation in many ways. I will step back from my comment that "no excess CO2 = no toxicity" because I was of the mistaken belief that it was the contention of posters that only *excess* CO2 would be toxic. I don't know near enough about yeast metabolism to comment on the effect of CO2 concentrations (at saturation or below) on it. I will say that I found extremely plausible David Robinson's suggestion that low pH is the culprit for some of the observations that high CO2 affects yeast activity. Dave Whitman rightly points out that the rate of diffusion of CO2 out of beer is hugely outpaced by the production rate of CO2 by fermentation, and that bubbling is what keeps supersaturation from occurring. This is part of what I was trying to say, and what Bob McCowan did say: that if bubbling is occurring, supersaturation does not prevail, almost by definition. I can see that in a fermentor that is "ideal" for this purpose, i.e. perfectly smooth-sided with *no* nucleation sites, and if the beer is *perfectly* trub-free (remember "frictionless pulleys" from physics class?), then supersaturation is possible in principle. I would argue that in almost any *practical* setting, where these perfect conditions do not apply, that supersaturation will not take place-- there will be plenty of bubble nucleation. But Dave's point about the conflicting info we're getting on this being possibly due to some reports coming from quarters where the "perfect" setting is more closely achieved (i.e. some commercial setups?) is a very good one. Bottom line: I don't believe supersaturation happens in practical settings except under very local and very transitory conditions; it is not a characteristic of "the system" of fermenting beer + CO2. Cheers, Dave in Dallas - --- ***************************************************************************** Dave Draper, Dept Geosciences, U. Texas at Dallas, Richardson TX 75083 ddraper at utdallas.edu (commercial email unwelcome) WWW: hbd.org/~ddraper Beer page: http://hbd.org/~ddraper/beer.html ...yeast contain the mechanism of their own destruction. ---Charlie Scandrett Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 97 10:24:42 -0400 From: "Anton Verhulst" <verhulst at zk3.dec.com> Subject: yeast cuturing From: DD <dunn at tilc.com> >Anyone got suggestions on the best place to start (no pun intended) my >education on culturing yeast? The H.Brewer's Companion? One of >Miller's books? Source for the yeast? materials? I recomment that you buy the Advanced Yeast Culture kit from the Brewers Resource (800-827-3983). It contains all the materials to get started and a very good booklet (20 or 30 pages). If you get hooked on culturing you'll soon outgrow the kit (it's nore really "advanced" :-) but it's a great way to get started. - --Tony Verhulst - no affiliation with BR Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 07:31:41 -0700 (PDT) From: PickleMan <wrp2 at axe.humboldt.edu> Subject: Re:all-grain, small batches In response to Andrews question, I think that 45 min sparge for a 4 gal batch is too long. I just did a 2.5 gallon test batch of an Alt beer and the sparge took about 25 min. It seems that would be right as I am only doing 1/2 the wort of a 5 gal batch. Relax, yadda, yadda, yadda... PickleMan wrp2 at axe.humboldt.edu Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 11:09:35 -0400 From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> Subject: CO2 Toxicity Brewsters: We have been reading speculation about "CO2 toxicity" for some months now= without a real database of information. Just anecdotal stories. I suspe= ct this has its basis in the oft-repeated alcohol toxicity response of yeast= s. AlK suggests that he missed an opportunity to gather some information in = a real parallel situation, a laudable idea, but I doubt it would have prov= en anything. AlK and others talk about CO2 super-saturation and AlK talks about his exposure to a supersaturation of sugar as an example. An even better example of supersaturation is gained every time we open a beer bottle. The CO2 is supersaturated at this new pressure. Lucklily for us= CO2 comes to equilibrium slowly (most of the time!). Given the commonali= ty of this phenomenon, I agree that CO2 can become supersaturated, but doubt= its importance in fermentation at atmospheric pressure. In the absence of real, scientifically collected information, I remain skeptical. I do not mean to be critical of speculation ( or AlK and other= s personally) it is just that I can explain all of the observations, so fa= r, simply by postulating premature flocculation of the yeast - which is a well-recognized phenomenon among ale yeasts, especially. British brewers= often ( at least in days gone by) rouse their yeast by stirring the fermenting wort or by "dropping" the wort/beer after two or three days of= fermentation. . This rousing does cause a release of CO2, but more importantly it puts the yeast cell in contact with more wort and complete= s the fermentation. Others use mixed strains of yeasts have flocculant and non-flocculant strains to promote attentuation. The "powdery" strain kee= ps the fermenting wort roused automatically and the primary strain in contac= t with the wort to allow it to finish. DeClerk goes so far as to say that *any* yeast will ferment out a normal= wort to 100% attenuation if it is agitated enough. Flocculation is the mechanism whereby yeasts become less attenuative, despite Wyeast's tables= of % attenuation. The earlier in a fermentation a yeast flocculates, the= less the attenuation. = Flocculation - a colloidal phenomenon - is dependent on many things in th= e wort including things like pH , sugar content, salt content, temperature,= agitation (ergo fermenter dimensions) , etc. as well as genetics. I presume Wyeast's tables were generated by comparing small fermentations, without agitation other than the escaping CO2. However, as we know these= are only approximations and based on the number of comments in the HBD ca= n be either higher or lower than these numbers depending on lots of things.= = We are familiar with the caution to cool beer slowly to prevent prematur= e flocculation and thereby get a "stuck" (I.e. under attentuated) fermentation or undercarbonated vessel. Too cool a fermentation will ofte= n result in a high FG since the yeast were not agitated by the CO2 bubbling= fast enough to keep the yeast de-flocculated and to finish the job. = Agitating a stuck fermentation will often re-start it as will raising the= temperature a few degrees. All explicable by mechanical de-flocculation = of the yeast without reference to CO2 toxicity. = One contributor notes that he can prolong the fermentation of his aquariu= m CO2 generator by adjusting the pH up after it has fermented for a while and slowed down. This is a well recognized phenomenon to mead makers in which honey based liquors do not have the buffer capacity of malt based wort. A mid-fermentation pH adjustment or addition of buffers causes a me= ad to ferment out in a few days instead of a few months or years. A similar= phenomenon should prevail for pure sugar fermentations. The problem with= too low a pH is that the enzymes are outside their optimal operative pH range. Adjusting the pH back up into optimal range allows the yeast to continue. = Neither of these phenomena, the agitation to re-start a fermentation nor the pH adjustment need CO2 toxicity to explain these well-known phenomeno= n. An interesting experiment would be one in which a wort fermentation is carried out in pressure vessels at various pressures of CO2 to see the effect of CO2 concentration. Both bottom and top fermenters should be compared. These could be agitated to eliminate this flocculation variabl= e and use malt worts to control the pH swings. An experiment like this woul= d demonstrate whether or not yeast show a true CO2 toxicity response. = Keep on brewin' Dave Burley Kinnelon, NJ 07405 103164.3202 at compuserve.com Dave_Burley at compuserve.com = Voice e-mail OK = Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 11:33:31 -0700 From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro) Subject: A cool occurence of marginal relevance Hi all, I just have to brag a bit, forgive me... Last year, a friend of mine (and fellow homebrew club member) went to Belgium. He brought with him club T-shirts to give to brewers who were kind enough to give him tours. A few weeks ago a different pair of club members went to the Cantillon brewery, unannounced. To their surprise, the brewer was wearing our club's T-shirt! We might not have the biggest club in the world, but the brewer at Cantillon wears a Malted Barley Appreciation Society T-shirt to work!!! Have fun! George De Piro (President, Malted Barley Appreciation Society) Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 97 09:38:28 PDT From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at kansas.net> Subject: Lucky Jethro >From: Andy Walsh <awalsh at crl.com.au> >Subject: brew free or die! >Would you believe me if I said that it is standard practice on >commercial 4/6 roll malt mills to have anti-explosive devices fitted? >Feeling lucky Jethro? Just remove those anti explosive devices from your >mill... Of course I feel lucky! But, everyone knows I crush each and every kernel of malt by hand with a jeweler's hammer and a pair of micro-surgical forceps! ;-) Cheers! Jethro Gump Rob Moline Little Apple Brewing Company Manhattan, Kansas "Micro-brew is like a box of chocolates, you never know what your gonna get!" Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 09:08:48 -0700 From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com> Subject: Re: sour mashing Al K(TM) wrote: > Given > that we now have pure cultures of Pediococcus and Lactobacillus > available to homebrewers, I would think that natural souring would > be reserved for special experiments or particularly dedicated purists. I'm going to brew a sour weisse sometime this summer, and I'm specifically going to avoid using the lacto cultures that are available. The reason is that they will "take over" whatever equipment you use to ferment them in. I've been told that they infect the airlocks, fermenter, rubber stopper, etc. Supposedly, lacto cultures are exceedingly difficult to dislodge once they've taken hold (your glass carboy will have micro-cracks in it that these beasties enjoy). On a homebrew level, I don't have the resources to devote an entire set-up to lacto ferments, so I'm going with the sour mashing alternative. This way I'll only contaminate a 1 gallon container while I sour mash. So, there's a very practical reason to sour mash other than the Rheinsegtoebottolsfjsdl. SM Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 12:06:04 -0500 From: Rob Kienle <rkienle at interaccess.com> Subject: Re: Malt Mills (Pricing) Randy wrote... > I don't have the price of the Valley mill in front of me, but I can > guarantee you it is not $70 less than the malt mill, and if it is, you > should consider shopping elsewhere. Whoops. Right you are. JSP's web page has been moved (apparently) and I couldn't find it when I made my post yesterday to confirm the pricing, which I remember to be higher. The Valley Mill is about $40 cheaper, not $70 as I previously stated (vs. the comparable, *adjustable* MM model). That is, however, still something like a 40% difference. Several people who responded to my original post made sure to point out that you can't really go wrong with either mill. They're both high quality, work well, and it seems that their respective users are quite pleased with them. I didn't mean to dis the MM as much as just point out the results of my polling about the VM. I do have some concern about the non-parallel adjustment feature of the MM and whether that's a plus or minus in the real world. But heck, I may still take it on the chin and spend the extra bucks on the MM so I can have the super heavy-duty kryptonite bearings. :) Thanks for offering the correction, Rick. - -- Cheers4beers, Rob Kienle Chicago, IL rkienle at interaccess.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 13:14:32 -0400 From: Mark Polnasek <dolt at mnsinc.com> Subject: Moving Refrigerators George, Years ago, I helped my father with his refrigeration business. We moved a lot of fridges around town. As others have suggested, you must let them sit for 24 hours before trying them out. The refrigerant is mixed with oil and laying the unit down gets this mix into places in the system where the liquid shouldn't be. Standing upright for 24 hours fixes this. However, this dosen't sound like your problem. There is not much electrical stuff on older fridges. But the controls do get cranky when moved after 20 years in the same position. First problem might be moving the temperature control. If someone turned the control to off after 20 years of being set in the middle, then that could be your problem. A liquid filled bulb resides in the fridge itself and feeds to the thermostat. This liquid expands a bellows inside the control which affects a micro switch to start and stop the compressor depending upon the temperature the bulb senses. Radical movements of this control after years of not moving could throw the bellows and micro switch out of whack. Try some radical movements to restore it. Access to this control is tough. You can get to some by removing the knob and hoping there is an access plate. Otherwise you have to remove the plastic joining the inner and outer shells and go in through the fiberglass insulations. Nasty stuff. Wear gloves. You could also get to the wires and bypass the thermostat and use an external one. The second thing that could be wrong is the relay. The relay is located near the compressor and is a little plastic box about 2x2x4 inches. This could have taken a shock from moving and be misbehaving. Try to disassemble it and clean any contacts you find. The thing could be full of roaches too. The last item is the thermal overload. It's a safety device that is mounted directly on the compressor. Being a tiny temperature sensor, it could have gone bad from getting knocked around. Some of the newer fridges have automatic defrost timers too. Yours could be in the defrost cycle. Good luck. My dad and I have fixed many old fridges by fooling with these components. We did however, replace a lot of these parts to get them going. Mark P. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 17:28:41 GMT From: mra at skyfry.com (Matthew Arnold) Subject: Stout question, Mk II Here's Mk II of my attempted Stout recipe. I realize that, for the most part, I am not using British/Irish ingredients, but I think it should be a credible stout nevertheless. I intended this to have a lower O.G. a la draught Guinness. Poke in the Eye with a Sharp Stout 3.3# Northwestern Gold LME 1# Northwestern Gold DME 1# Two-row 1# Roasted barley .5# Flaked barley 3 oz Fuggles pellets (4.0% AAU--60 minutes) Yeast cake of Wyeast #1338 European Ale According to SUDS, the O.G. should be 1.043, assuming 75% efficiency on the partial mash, which is admittedly probably being charitable. The Fuggles cranks it up to ~45 IBU using Tinseth's figures, but I will be using a hop bag and the blowoff method so the IBUs will be lowered accordingly. I figured the 1338 would give it that maltiness I'm looking for. Will 1# of roasted barley give it enough color? I _do not_ want this to be heavy in black malt bitterness (e.g. from black patent). If it wouldn't be dark enough, I probably would substitute 1# of Dark DME instead of Gold. Thanks in advance to the collective! Matt (6 weeks and counting until fatherhood . . .) Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 12:01:25 -0500 From: kathy <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us> Subject: moving freezers Geo De Piro's refrigerator may have suffered what many home compressor systems do. Sitting in place and vibrating away for years and years, the copper tends to chrystalize or harden. Then, the moving van pulls up and the frige/freezer goes on a dolly and bumps down steps, up and down ramps, hits a few pot holes and then the procedure is repeated in reverse. The hardened copper develops hair line cracks and over a few/days or weeks loses compressent enuf to cool very poorly. I'm a Realtor and we tell people to leave freezers/friges in place unless they are relatively new because of the high failure rate after moving. Save the moving costs and buy something newer. When I buy an old freezer for my life as a brewer, I tell them the problems and say if it runs well for a couple months I'll give them an extra pittance in addition to the pittance I offered initially. (Actually, freezers usually get given away for the hauling.) Hauling old freezers around and then paying disposal plus freon disposal charge is way down the list from washing bottles, which is way down ...... cheers, jim booth, ceo of boo-the-bum brewing co, lansing, mi Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 12:55:33 -0500 (CDT) From: korz at xnet.com Subject: bottle conditioned beer yeast Dana writes: So - how long does the small amount of yeast at the bottom of a bottle conditioned beer last? Seems to me it has to be longer than the few days/weeks we can keep a starter in the fridge. So could you save a couple of bottles of bottle conditioned brew from a previous batch and use the yeast later (how much later?) to create a starter when needed? You are equating two different things which is why it seems weird to you. When we culture yeast from the bottom of a bottle, all we really need is for *one* cell to still be alive. With a starter, we would like 80 or even 90% of the yeast to still be viable. You certainly can use beer that is many years old for yeast culturing. Have you heard the story of Flag Porter? It is made with yeast that was revived from bottle-conditioned beers rescued from an old shipwreck (late 1800's, I believe). As a beer, Flag Porter is *not* the "original" it pretends to be, but it does prove that you can revive yeast from very old dregs! Al. Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL korz at xnet.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 13:25:38 -0500 (CDT) From: korz at xnet.com Subject: Amber extract Jorge asks about amber extract and suggests that he make it by toasting some Pilsner malt to an amber colour to substitute for amber extract. There are no "rules" that the extract manufacturers follow when making amber or dark extracts. Some use high-kilned malts such as Vienna or Munich. Others, will simply add some crystal malt. Others, may use a very small amount of dark malt. When it comes to dark extract, there can be even more variation. One thing I'm pretty sure of, is that of the 20 or so brands of extracts I've tried, none of the amber extracts tasted as if they contained any significant amount of toasted malt. Roasting Pilsner malt lightly is basically making "toasted malt" and not "high-kilned" malt because in the latter, the temperature is raised *before* the malt is dry. This is a big difference in taste. You may be able to achieve something similar (or even make crystal malt at home) if you first soak the Pilsner malt till it has absorbed quite a bit of water and *then* put it in the oven. If you cover the pot in which you are doing the heating for a while and keep the temperature around 150 to 170F (65-75C), you may make something that resembles crystal malt. You then have to remove the cover, raise the heat, and stir periodically to dry it. The difference in making high-kilned malt is that the temperature is significantly higher than the 150-170F and you never cover the pot. I don't have my books here, so I can't tell you the exact temperatures for each type of grain, but I believe they are included in my article on grains at The Brewery. Hopefully, the correction I sent them (F vs. C) has been included. Al. Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL korz at xnet.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 14:01:00 -0600 From: wesc at mails.imed.com (Wes Clement) Subject: Getting tougher to ship entries to Brew Competitions Busted...The local UPS service (Angleton Texas) now opens and inspects all packages regardless of what is written on the outside (FOOD or YEAST SAMPLES). They would not ship anything in glass and especially if it is alcoholic in nature. The same goes with the US postal service. Its getting to where you can't enter any home brew competitions unless you drive it there yourself. This there any way around this. Wes Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 15:57:21 -0500 From: layton at sc45.dseg.ti.com (James R. Layton 972.952.3718 JLAY) Subject: adjuncts and head, yeast questions Al Korzonas asked for comments regarding the effect of flaked corn or rice on head retention. I've had some experience with flaked corn in a Belg. strong ale, two cream ales, and a classic Am. pilsner. My experience has been that head retention was a bit weak in the cream ales (18% flaked corn) but still as good or better than mass-market American lager. The Belg. strong ale (12 lbs pils malt, 1 lb sucrose, 1 lb flaked corn) had great head retention and so does my current classic Am. pilsner (24% flaked corn). I probably reduced the head quality of the cream ales by resting too long at 122F. Brew and learn. I am convinced that if you don't go overboard with the low/no protein adjuncts and if the base malt and mash schedule are properly matched then head retention can be excellent. Some beer styles greatly benefit from the use of these adjuncts. - ---------------------------------------- I've got questions regarding yeast storage. I've been washing yeast from the fermenter using the double rinse with distilled water technique given in the yeast faq. I then store the jar of yeast slurry and water in a refrigerator until needed. If less than two weeks old I pitch the slurry directly into the fermenter. If it is older, I take out about 1/8 teaspoon of yeast and make a starter. I've used this technique for a couple of years and it has worked well enough. I don't have any notes to document this but it seems that the longer the yeast has been stored (up to three months in my experience), the longer it takes for the starter to actively ferment (no surprise). The questions: Is the yeast going into a progressively deeper state of dormancy, or is it just dying off cell by cell? (Note: the stored jar of yeast slurry still smells yeasty, no foul odors) Can pitching a starter with a high number of dead cells cause problems? Has anyone with a microscope and stain taken a look to see what this storage method actually does to the yeast? BTW, I've recently begun culturing yeast from slants and recommend this to all as an interesting extension of this hobby. Jim Layton, Howe, TX Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 15:02:14 -0400 From: "Barry B. Floyd" <floydb at wine-tours.com> Subject: Version 4.0 - "The Wine Tours Project" http://www.wine-tours.com/ "The Wine Tours Project" is happy to announce version 4.0 of its WWWeb Site. The upgrade includes a new look and feel, easier navigation and new information (e.g. business listings and wine-related info pages). During the next two weeks The Project will be completing internal testing of its new geographic mapping technology, as a beta site for MapInfo Corporation's Internet-based mapping solution "MapX". "The Wine Tours Project" presents regularly updated wine-related business listings (7,300+) and info pages (10+), including: Wholesalers, Retailers, Importers and Exporters Suppliers, Publishers, Associations and Consultants Winery Tours, Storers and Others The Wine Library with: Wine Links, Care, Words, etc. Info. on: Wine grapes and styles, Goodies and History Comments and suggestions are always welcome. How may we improve our site? +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Barry B. Floyd \\\ floydb at wine-tours.com | | Project Manager \\\ The Wine Tours Project - 7000+ listings | | \\\ | | RPI Alum. '84'87'88 \\\http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/7331 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 17:47:32 -0700 From: David Johnson <dmjalj at inwave.com> Subject: Fruit and beer In reading the recent discussion about fruit in beer, I was thinking that much like beer (or for that matter almost anything) the good taste of fruit is a balance between different flavors. One of the flavors that have to be balanced is the balance between sweet and acid. When you put fruit in beer, (and the more experienced brewers can correct me) most of the simple sugars will be fermented out and most of the residual sweetness must be supplied by the malt to balance the acid. Thus in formulating a beer recipe to support fruit, one would want just enough residual sweetness from the malt to balance the acidity of the fruit without overpowering the fruit flavors (which is why you're making a fruit beer in the first place). Thus a case can be made for toning down the maltiness of the beer with honey with a more delicately flavored fruit and a case can be made for malty sweetness with an acidic or more strongly flavored fruit. It is all about balance. I wouldn't want to make a very bitter beer to support a acidic fruit. I also wouldn't want to make a heavy sweet beer for a delicately flavored non-acidic fruit. There is a very interesting reference on the Mead Maker's Page: www.atd.ucar.edu/rdp/gfc/mead/mead.html There is a list of the acidic content and the sugar content of fruits. There is a lot that can be learned from the meadmakers about the use of fruit in brewing. I guess they might be a little more tuned in to fruit. It is worth lurking on the Mead Lovers digest if you are interested in fruit beers. Certainly any searchers for fruit ideas should include mead makers in there sources. Also, although I have only had one of Brimstones fruit beers (Raspberry Porter), I found that one to be a little heavy handed and much preferred our local Wisconsin product New Glarus Brewings "Belgian Red" (it may not be Belgian but it is good). Dave Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:36:52 -0700 From: Andy Walsh <awalsh at crl.com.au> Subject: Aussie hops, Coopers and CO2 toxicity Hi. A few points: Graham Wheeler comments on Aussie hops: I live in Sydney (34 deg) and have grown hops here. They grow quickly and strongly, and do flower (barely) at his latitude, but the bitterness level was extremely low (good for salads!). Friends in Melbourne (36 deg) grow hops and brew with them OK. There is quite some difference with the same rootstock. POR are grown in Victoria, as are Opal and Victoria, plus several others. They are all high alpha types. I think the main reason aroma varieties are not grown in quantity is because the breweries are paranoid about adding hop aroma in the first place, rather than growing problems (although this may well be the case too). Several aroma varieties are grown in Tassie in small "trial" quantities, and are available for homebrewers. I believe the best quality hops in these parts come from New Zealand. They grow some excellent hops - usually triploid types - eg. triploid "Hallertauer" 8.3%aa. A large proportion of NZ hops are exported to Europe, where they are also highly regarded. Being an imported plant to NZ, which lacks many of the diseases and pests common to European fields, NZ fields do not require such heavy use of insecticides/fungicides for a decent crop. I also highly recommend Neves "Hops" book, even if it does have a British bias! ***** Coopers has sprung up here again. Sorry Dave, I must disagree about the Coopers phenolic being age independent. I am a real Coopers nut (you know this, Dave!) and firmly believe that the phenolic develops from age and or poor handling. It is almost invariably present in the bottle to lesser or greater degree, and on draught in *Sydney* as well, but go to Adelaide and it's a different beast. The Coopers there is characterised by luscious fruity pear/apple/banana, rather than yeasty phenolic. I lived in Adelaide for 17 years before moving to Sydney, BTW, and really miss good Coopers here. It exists, but is rare. Dave Sapsis wrote a good summary a short time ago on Coopers on these pages. ****** CO2 toxicity: Maybe the usual textbooks don't talk about this much, but there is a fair amount of data in the journals. Certainly one of the side effects of high trub content is to aid fermentation by providing nucleation sites for CO2. One account (Lentini - don't have the paper handy) found that not only does high trub content aid fermentation, but that by substituting kieselguhr for trub, similar effects were noted (ie. lower esters and faster fermentation). Trub has other adverse effects on beer quality so probably should not be routinely used as a fermentation aid. I borrowed some kieselguhr from a micro recently and now add it to my primary, since I have very clear wort. I don't have any scientific data showing better fermentations, but whereas I *used* to have low AE, I now tend to get good AE. Although I cannot categorically state that the DE additions have helped, it *has* been shown elsewhere, and it gives me peace of mind. Bentonite is another one said to do similar things and may be easier to find. It also acts as a protein adsorber and thus aids clarity too. I believe winemakers sometimes add bentonite along with the yeast, to aid fermentation. Having more alcohol and less yeast nutrients, they would tend to run into more fermentation disorders than we do, so this may be one to try out. I don't know about sodium bicarbonate - increasing pH during fermentation is generally not considered wise. Andy Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 22:43:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Small Change <schd at pluto.njcc.com> Subject: Princeton Homebrews side of the Pat Babcocks bad experience. Recently, it was brought to my attention that Pat Babcock had been to my store store twice and I was not there during published store hours. For my business it was unfortunate that Mr. Babcock did not call me after and explain that he was disappointed and I was not given a chance to help Mr. Babcock out before he posted to all the homebrewers in the world that my store was not professionally run. I regret any customer leaving my store dissatisfied, I have contacted Mr. Babcock and asked him why he did not call me if he had a problem and I would happily rectify it. I would be glad to offer Mr. Babcock a credit for his time lost. If I lost one customer for any reason with my store, it could mean the difference between me staying in business or going under - honestly, there really is not much money in running a homebrew store and I need all the business I can get. Realistically, there will be times when a one person operation will not be able to be open at all the posted hours. Running a homebrew store alone is not easy, and hiring another person I found to be a financial mistake for the amount of money the store brings in. For the first 2 years I ran my store alone, the store was open 10AM-9PM, 7 days a week, 75 hours a week [I would not recommend this for any person to have these hours!] Since May 97, at the insistency of my friends and family, I reduced the hours to 59 hours a week. I do my best to keep those hours, sometimes it is not possible since my family all have health problems and their well-being is most important to me. They need me to help them out, there will be days that I have to take them to the Emergency Room and get to work a little late. I admit, I have been closed or busy because my dad and mother were both in the hospital for two months last winter, my car didn't start, I had to go to the bathroom, needed fo od, had to go to the post office, or there was a fire down the street and I stepped out for 5 minutes because I was concerned. [For the most part, my customers all seemed to understand]. If I have to leave, I always do this when I feel business is slow. I am doing the best I can do, given the circumstances. I am as human as any homebrewer is, and I'm sure that if Pat Babcock has to take a break from work to attend to his perceived needs as well, that he will, and not expect someone who unfortunately was there twice looking for him would not take it public firing. It would be most unfortunate for him if anyone took the same attitude he is taking towards me and my store. I too, like Mr. Babcock run a electronic mailing list for the Pale Ales Home brew club. I feel I have a responsibility not to bad press local shops because I am just one opinion. I believe that would be self-serving and detrimental [and besides I am have done my best to promote homebrewing, I really don't deserve this]. In fact, I can hardly stand to hear negative thoughts from people be cause I do not know if it is true or they are just not relaxed and like to vent a bout everything that is not as perfect as they think they are. I hope that because of Mr. Babcock's bad experience I will not lose many customers because I've worked too hard to be brought down by his bad experience. I also feel that his insistency that it would be better to tell everyone about this except me is equally insulting. I hope he learns how to handle bad luck with tact. As you can see by the simple fact that we both had bad luck not connecting twice [which is rare for the amount of hours I am open] he decides that interfering with my business and way of living. I know this just another pot shot on the internet, and it will happen again. I believe Mr. Babcock is connected with the administration of this list, gets PALE ALES e-mail, knows my phone number and knows the implications of his post. I strongly object to his non-comunicativeness with me, who could have solved his problem very easily. From what I know about homebrewers, they are always willing to talk before going public. This is quite disturbing to me. Joe Bair Owner, Princeton Homebrew Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 23:47:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeff Hewit <jhewit at erols.com> Subject: Seeking Hops Info I recently acquired some hops for which I have not been able to find the type of complete description that is generally available for most other varieties. They are Bramling Cross (6.0% AA) and WGV (6.5% AA). Both are English. I have found some mention of Bramling Cross - apparently it is used as an aroma yeast in ales - but have not seen any discussion as to its characteristics or commercial examples. I have not found any references to the WGV. Does anyone have any experience with either of these varieties? TIA for any details. ====================================== Jeff Hewit Midlothian, Virginia Return to table of contents
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