---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Black Beers/CM3-Gambrinus (Brad McMahon)
  An Even More Affordable Conical Fermenter (jared froedtert)
  re: Bottle of ice questions (Adam Dreyer)
  Botulism thread not dead (korz)
  Pediococcus damnosus dead/asleep? ("Kerr, David")
  K'Zoo Brewing Caginess/Iced Beer/Hanssens? (Ken Schramm)
  cream ale ("Charles R. Cates")
  Bell's Beers (Randy Ricchi)
  RE:  Japanese Beetles ("Keith Royster")
  Alcohol Bitterness, ("David R. Burley")
  Rosemary Pale Ale summary ("Ted Major")
  Japanese Beetle Attack Strategy (Ken Schramm)
  fermenter question & beer story ("Myers, John")
  1997 Colorado Brewer's Festival (John Adams)
  Old Wheat Yeast (Denis Barsalo)
  Aluminum Pot (LNUSTRUK.CZLSSB)
  Kahlua Beer,  Lemon Brew (haafbrau1)
  Weyermann malts ("Braam Greyling")
  Alcohol and sweetness/Gram scales (Kelly Jones)
  Tulsa Water, Mead Question (JeffHailey)
  Mead question (JeffHailey)
  Edwin Newman/William Safire wannabe ("Kerr, David")
  Isinglass worries (Andrew E Howard)
  Colorado microbrews// no more botulism (smurman)
  Re: Japanese Beetle Blues (guym)
  Gueuze Belgians (Greg.A.Kudlac)
  Re: kahlua beer (July 03, 1997) (Sean Mick)
  Corny keg Unitank? (Sean Mick)
  Pre-chiller tubing size ("Val J. Lipscomb")
  Canning Wort again ("Alan McKay")
  La Fin du Monde ... ("Alan McKay")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 16:39:05 +1100
From: Brad McMahon <brad at sa.apana.org.au>
Subject: Black Beers/CM3-Gambrinus

From: "Michael R. Frank" <mfrank at ag.Arizona.EDU>
>1) Just what is a black beer anyway? I've been seeing and tasting an
>increasing number of these lately, and whatever they are, I generally
>like them. But when I look somewhere like the AHA style guidelines (or
>HBD archives, Cat's Meow, etc) there is little or no information. There
>are obviously differences  between something like Xingu and Portland's
>Haystack Black, but are these just american (or new-world) porters? 

Not knowing what those commercial brands are, you have a couple
of choices. 
If it is an ale, they could be Scottish or English Old Ales if they
are not porters or stouts.
But I am guessing that these are lagers, in which case
they would be modeled on German Schwarzbier.
Some brand names include Mather's Black Beer, Suntory Black Beer,
Starobrno and Kloster Schwarzbier. Schwarzbiers have a lot
of roasted malt in them and are moderately bitter (IBU 20-35)
and low in sweetness. Should have a bitter-chocolate taste
to it. Around OG 1.040-1.050 is fine, and alcohol is standard beer
range (3.5%-5%).

As for a recipe you could hack one together fairly easily.
Some darker malts with lots of roasted malt, combined
with German hops and German lager yeast should do the trick.

>2) What is the difference between the Cat's Meow and Gambrinus' Mug
>recipie collections at The Brewery website >(http://alpha.rollanet.org/)?
>Do any of you find one set or the other more reliable? (some of the
>directions are a bit weird at times). Is either set proctored in some
>way, or are they just historical artifacts?

I find the Mug easier to read as you can differentiate between
extract and all-grain recipes easier. (Although converting
all-grain to extract is easy). As far as I'm aware, the Cat's
Meow is much more static with very few changes made.
But it has hundreds more recipes.
As for reliability, I can't say. Some recipes look to be very
sensible and others just shouldn't be there. I don't know
about anyone else, but I am not going to waste my time and 
money on a recipe that is basically an experiment.
There are a few recipes in both databases that contain
phrases like ".. next time I'll add more/less ..."
"I expect this brew to ...".
I don't think incomplete recipes should be published at all,
but they are there, and I'd avoid them if I were you.


- --
Brad McMahon		"I don't hate anyone, at least
ph.	0411 501 518	 not for more than 48 minutes,	
brad at sa.apana.org.au	 barring overtime." C. Barkley
Email me for PGP public key.



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Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 11:52:04 -0400
From: jared froedtert <froedter at pilot.msu.edu>
Subject: An Even More Affordable Conical Fermenter

Greetings Fellow Brewers,

	Before sharing my experiences i must thank all of the folks out there in
computer land who put this together, and to ya'll for kepping it going;
this forum has got to be the best thing around as far as applying and
gathering information on.  Lets keep up the good work. Now......
	I saw the message posted about the 'Affordable Conical Fermenter'
yesterday and  figured i'd post some info on my 'Even More Affordable
Conical Fermenter'.  I found at  a garage sale this spring someone selling
a couple of old items which were used in Dairy processing.  This family had
for sale a 10 gal. conical fermenter, real porpose i don't know since i'm
not hip to the Dairy processing.  It's made out of stainless steel, not the
best grade since there was some corosion, but easily removed with green
scrubby-pad and elbow grease.  It has three slim glass windows on the side,
which are removable for cleaning, so you can view the contents inside; very
cool for brewing purposes.  It has a brass ball valve at the to drain the
vessel's contents.  And it has a lid which was very rusty, must not have
been made from stainless, which i will probably won't use; i'll have to
make one to fit.  There is also a half torn sticker still atttached with
the name of the manufacture "Elgin - Dairy Processing".  So if you can find
anybody selling old Dairy equipment, i highly recommend you check it out.
This was a very excellent find, and i only paid 15 bucks, which i had to
haggle to get it down from 25.  So if you can find anybody selling old
Dairy equipment, i highly recommend you check it out.   Which leads me to
something else I found out which has to do with something alongs these lines.
	I vistited the Lansing Brewing Co. for a couple of hours a couple of
months back and ended up helping them bottle some of their brew.  They
still do it like we do,  a bench capper and sanitized caps.  Anyway, their
brewing set up there was a totally retro-fitted Dairy system which the
brewer customized for his uses.  It's made from all high grade Stainless
Steel and cost him only a fraction of the cost of a commercial brewing
setup.  It's very cool.  Since all Micro-Brewing is just creating your
product in large vessels and vasts, he found a cheaper alternative to the
norm, nad fit it to his needs.  So just remember you don't need to spend
lots'o $$$ to make good beer, wether you're at home or in industry. You
just need to know what to do and how effeciently it needs to get done, and
then be a little creative and make it up as you go along, that's the art of
it all; a little luck helps.  BTW, Lansing Brewing Co.'s Amber Cream Ale is
very, very, very good.  Hopes this helps someone.  C-ya.........


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Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:42:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Adam Dreyer <adreyer at matrox.com>
Subject: re: Bottle of ice questions


In regards to Ken Koupal's question about his frozen beer:

The beer turning ice is a simple chemistry problem that I have 
contemplated on several weekend nights in college when the beer was 
left in the freezer for a little too long. 

The freezing (and boiling) point of a liquid is a function of pressure.
Simply put, if liquid is at a higher pressure than 1 atmosphere, it 
will freeze at a lower temperature than it would under ambient pressure 
(1 atm).  This is also true for the reverse.  If the pressure is less 
than 1 atm, the freezing (and boiling) temperature of a liquid are 
increased and decreased respectively.  I recall an illustration of this 
in a college chemistry class.  Water was put in a vacuum chamber a 
brought to a specific temperature-pressure combination that results 
in the "triple point" where water freezes, boils and condenses at 
the same time. 

You can apply this to your beer now.  The beer was at a higher pressure 
that 1 atmosphere so its freezing temperature is lower that at ambient 
pressure.  The temperature of the beer was lower that the freezing 
temperature at ambient pressure. 
So, when you open the beer, the pressure when to 1 atm, the water in 
the beer froze and the alcohol did not.  Also, the CO2 originally in 
solution now is forced out causing your beer to foam and spray out. 

Now, the liquid could be collected sure.  You actually are making ice 
beer since it is now of higher alcohol content.  However, the result 
will be very flat since most of the CO2 will have escaped.  This is 
actually a method for making apple-jack if I am not mistaken.  The
fermented cider is frozen and decanted several times to increase
its potency.  So, you would probably end up with a higher alcohol, 
flat beer.  But that may still be worth the effort.

Anyway, I hope this answers you question even if I did go off on a tangent.



Cheers,

Adam Dreyer



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Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:17:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: korz at xnet.com
Subject: Botulism thread not dead

In light of the fact that there are still people posting that it's
okay to "can" wort without pressure cooking, it seems that the numerous
warnings have fallen on deaf ears.  I've researched this in great depth
talking via email to numerous people in food science, brewing, microbiology,
and toxicology and I'll summarize what I've learned:

IT IS UNSAFE TO STORE CANNED STARTER WORT FOR ANY LENGTH OF TIME UNLESS YOU
*PRESSURE COOK* IT TO KILL THE SPORES OF THE BACTERIA THAT CAUSES BOTULISM!
YOU CANNOT TELL FROM SMELL, APPEARANCE, OR TASTE IF THE STARTER IS SAFE!

DAVE MILLER'S AND CHARLIE PAPAZIAN'S BOOKS ARE WRONG ON THIS TOPIC!

Sorry for shouting, but there are still those who think that because they
haven't died yet, they are doing something safe.  They are not.  Also,
canning jars are made to handle a vacuum.  Regular glass jugs and bottles
are *not*.  You should *never* seal a container filled with hot liquid unless
it is specifically made to hold a vacuum.  Implosion risk is the issue here.

NOW, the botulism thread should be dead (for 6 months).

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com


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Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:36:33 -0400
From: "Kerr, David" <David.Kerr at ummc.ummed.edu>
Subject: Pediococcus damnosus dead/asleep?

My pLambic has been in the secondary for about 6 weeks now.  The B.
Lambicus seems to have really taken root - nice, funky nose -, but the
P. Damnosus (doesn't that sound so much cooler than P. Cerevisae?)
hasn't done its part.  The Pedio. was pitched upon racking to the
secondary, SG was about 1.014 (I'll mash the next one at 156F+), and the
B.Lambicus about 5 days later.
I hate to resort to adding lactic acid to sour the brew out, and am
willing to be patient.  Do you all think that adding a second, more
vigorous Pedio. starter will do any good at this point?  Can the new
Pedio. culture thrive on the residual Dextrines in my beer?
TIA-

Dave Kerr  "And if I swallow something evil
                    Would you stick your finger down my throat?" - Pete
Townshend
 


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Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 16:44:30 -0400
From: Ken Schramm <SchramK at wcresa.k12.mi.us>
Subject: K'Zoo Brewing Caginess/Iced Beer/Hanssens?

While the "cat and mouse" game (this land is made of trousers...this
land is  made of mousers, and pussy cats to eat them when the sun
goes down....  Firesign Theater) may have been fun, I haven't ever
run into problems dealing with the folks there.  I just tell them "I
am a homebrewer and..." and the rest of the conversation has
perenially turned very neighborly and jovial.  

Perhaps a better approach is to meet Larry Bell at one of the many
conferences he loves to attend (and in the state of joviality he can
occassionally be found in), and see if you can loose his lips.  He
was VERY forthcomiong with details about his "Two Hearted Ale" when
he spoke at the Traverse Brewing Academy conference in 1996.  And he
was more than happy to discuss just about any subject when he showed
up in New Orleans last year.

ATTENTION AHA Personnel: Anyone know if Larry will be in Cleveland? 
And what he might be bringing?

I will be bringing smoked turkey, lots of mead, and will be looking
fo fly fishing afficianados and fruit growing answer people. 


As Far As the frozen beer question, The beer was in a "super cooled"
state.  The beer is below its freezing point at standard T & P, but
the C02 pressure keeps it liquid.  The solubility of the gas in the
VERY cold beer is higher than in warm beer.  When you open the
bottle, the CO2 rushes out (There's going to be a pressure
drop...Jimmy Cliff), the beer chills even further (the CO2 escape is
exothermic) and the water in the beer freezes immediately, zipping
through the 32 degree state change barrier in a matter of
milliseconds. This will work with pop, too.

The Alcohol, having a much lower freezing point, goes blasting out
with the gas in the gush, although that doesn't always happen;
sometimes the beer just freezes into a slush of frozen water and
liquid alcohol.  The rush of gas takes all of the gas soluble esters
and aroma compounds with it.  

If you kept the H20, you'd have to collect a lot of it to be
worthwhile.

Al K:

What Hanssens? I want a case. 

Schramm
Systems out of balance fail.

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Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 17:08:48 -0500
From: "Charles R. Cates" <CCATES at sfasu.edu>
Subject: cream ale

Is anyone familiar with "Jenny Cream ale"(I think the brewery is Jenny
Brewering Co.;NY)I really like it, and would like to approach the taste.On
the bottle it says we use a special two level fermenting process to get a
brew with the flavor of an ale with the smoothness of a lager.Is anyone
familiar with this two level fermentation process,or have any idea how it is
accomplished.
                                thanks Charlie 


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Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 22:32:56 -0400
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Bell's Beers

Eric Fouch asked about Bell's Amber Ale formulation.  Good question about a
good beer, but what I'd like to know is what kind of hops do they use to
get the INTENSE grapefruit character in their pale ale.

Oh, sure, I've heard Cascade and Centennial described as grapefruity, even
Chinook has been described that way, but I've used all those hops before
and they are nothing like the character of Bell's Pale Ale.  That is one
righteous American pale ale.


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Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 03:43:08 +0500
From: "Keith Royster" <keith at ays.net>
Subject: RE:  Japanese Beetles

I think I remember hearing somewhere that japanese beetles are
repelled by the smell of other dead japanese beetles, specifically
if they are crushed. I know this sounds sadistic, but I've heard of 
people catching a bunch of them (using a trap?) and then putting them 
in a blender with water and spraying the resultant slurry back on the 
hop plants. 

I imagine you would want to use an old/cheap/dedicated blender 
for this! Ugh!

Keith Royster - keith at ays.net  <<< *NEW* address!
 at your.service - http://www.ays.net
 Web Services - Design & Hosting starts  at  $60/yr!
  Voice & Fax - (704) 662-9125
   Mooresville/Charlotte, NC

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Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 07:16:09 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Alcohol Bitterness,

Brewsters:

AlK says:

>Ahh, but alcohol is bitter and in high-alcohol beers some of the
bitterness
>comes from hops and some from the alcohol... doesn't it?  =


I always thought alcohol contributed a sweetness to beer as it does in
wine, if anything, and can not remember a reference to it giving a bitter=

response.  Is there something I missed? Is this a front of the mouth
(bitter1) or roof of the mouth (bitter2)  response?  Is there some kind o=
f
interaction with the hops?
- ---------------------------------------------
I doubt that HBD readers are any more annoyed than I am about the inserti=
on
of  miscellaneous "=3D" signs, truncation, etc. in my contributions. I on=
ly
know that it is a PIA for everyone.  I have tried many things, as has Pat=

Babcock  ( including, as time permitted, a repair of the damaged files by=

hand) , to cure it,  but to no avail.  Finally Compuserve ( after several=

questionings by me) has come across with accepting the blame. They claim
that it is due to an upgrade of their MIME format and "older" MIME versio=
ns
respond by misinterpreting, truncating and insertion of odd signs.  They
offer their apologies and assure me that they are making an effort to sol=
ve
this problem in the near future.  Don't hold your breath.  They also took=
 a
year to allow users to use a name instead a series of numbers in addresse=
s
and that was *after*  they announced the availability of the function!  S=
o
in the meantime, please accept my apology, as I have too many years
(decades)  invested in files, supporting software, etc.  on Compuserve to=

change now.
- --------------------------------------------
Happy Independence Day! to all you Yanquis.  Back on Tuesday.
- --------------------------------------------
Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  =

Voice e-mail OK =


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Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 08:52:46 -0400
From: "Ted Major"<tmajor at exrhub.exr.com>
Subject: Rosemary Pale Ale summary





Thanks to all who responded to my queries about brewing a rosemary pale
ale.
I got several suggestions to make a rosemary tea to add at bottling/kegging
time and thus carefully control the rosemary flavor, as well as responses
from brewers who had add rosemary at the end of the boil with other spices.
I also got a respone that suggested making and serving a Flemish stew with
the beer when it was finished, which seems like an excellent idea.

Here's what I ended up with:

9 lbs Briess pale malt
 .5 lb cara-pils
 .25 lb 120L crystal
 .25 lb wheat malt
Mash at 154F for 60 mins, mash out at 168F for 10 mins, and sparge.

I used 1 oz of whole Cascade (5.8%aa) for 60 mins and .5 oz whole Cascade
for 30 min.
I added 2 oz of fresh, destemmed rosemary for the last minute of the boil,
chilled, aerated,
and pitched 2 packages of rehydrated Whitbread ale yeast.
OG was 1.054
At racking last weekend, there was a strong rosemary aroma & flavor with
just a bit of Cascade flavor in the background.
SG was 1.012
I plan to bottle after 2 weeks in secondary.

Thanks to all for the advice, and also thanks to Ken Schwartz's BreWater,
which allowed me to easily adjust the soft Athens tap water to approximate
Mosher's ideal pale ale water profile.

Ted Major
Athens, Georgia



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Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 09:07:03 -0400
From: Ken Schramm <SchramK at wcresa.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Japanese Beetle Attack Strategy

Some of the local gardening stores in the Detroit area  sell a roughly
25% solution of Diazinon for use on food and other garden plants. 
Specifically, Franks sells a relabeled version as a house brand, ,but
you can probably find the Manufacturers label at less franchise type
outlets.  I like the Bonide line (no compensation or relation there,
just my humble opinion).  It is especially helpful for use on fruit
and garden crops because Diazinon is very effective against the
Japanese Beetle and its larvae, and because it is not particularly
persistent, and can be used closer to harvest than other more
persistent chemicals.  Spraying at dusk or slightly thereafter is the
most effective since that is when the JB's are most active.

Another more environmentally sensitive approach is beneficial
nematodes, which destroy the larvae through parasitic predation. 
They are (much) more expensive, and won't prevent transitory damage
from roaming beetles, but JB's don't have much of a range.  The
nematodes are sprayed onto your lawn as a liquid and need to be
applied very thoroughly.  This approach keeps the mite issue a
non-issue.

Schramm

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Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:39:18 -0400
From: "Myers, John" <JMyers at polkaudio.com>
Subject: fermenter question & beer story

Howdy folks.

I've been following the thread on the Affordable Conical Fermenter.  I
have seen things like this in plastics distributor's catalogues, and
always wondered if they were appropriate for home brewing.  I'd like to
compare.  Anybody got a web page or email address for ACF?  TIA.

Now I have a beer story with a mystery attached.  Not Interested?
Please page down!  :^)
Several weeks ago my wife and I participated in Sisson's Brew To Brew 5
Mile Road Race in Baltimore MD.  Race day conditions were what we call a
Red Flag Day:  Temperature was One Million and Two (degrees F) plus 100%
humidity.  When I finished the race, I made my way to the free(!!!) beer
vendors.  Nothing but local microbrews served.  Each vendor had a keg or
two connected to a cold plate.  He/she would fill pitchers from the tap
while pouring cups of beer from full pitchers.  The cups were plastic
with the day's event ink stenciled on the outside, and cups were stacked
upside down on the table.  I got my cup of beer, said "Thanks" and
turned away.  Raised said cup toward my lips, and POW!!!  My mouth and
nose were covered with beer and it felt like a bug had bit or stung me
on my lips.  First I thought somebody had shot me with a rubber band,
but looking around, nobody was pointing at me and laughing (I always
check) or looking particularly mischievous.  I resolved that I was
simply crazy from the heat, and proceeded to down my beer.  Got another,
and POW!!!, right in the kisser again.  Yeah, I know, some folks brew an
electrifying product right?  By this time, my wife had finished the
race.  She grabbed some water, and I grabbed another beer.  POW!!!  I
told her my story, and she gave me a look of disgust mixed with pity.
"You've had your head under the keg too long again!" she said.  Then we
noticed a group of folks gathered in a circle, laughing and pointing at
each other.  A hush fell as one of the men carefully brought a cup of
beer toward his pooched-out lips.  I swear I'm not making this up.  When
the cup was about an inch from his mouth, the beer leapt OUT of the cup,
splashed his face, and everybody had a good yuk.  My wife and I looked
at each other, and she said, "OK, but I stand by my words."  Sheesh!
Here's my theories:
*	From my physical exertion, I sweated a lot of electrolytes out and
changed my personal polarity, so that when I got a beer, there was an
electrical potential between brew and quaffer.  The plastic cup served
as a dielectric between us.  Therefore my capacity for quaffing was
challenged by the capacitance of the cup of brew.
*	The cups were the culprit, not the dielectric:  When pulled from the
stack, a static charge was built on the plastic cup.  So how come it
didn't discharge as soon as I touched it?
*	The hot, humid conditions coupled with my elevated core temperature
formed a highly localized "Devil's Triangle" effect.  Thank gawd there
wasn't a flight of WWII bombers nearby.
So, scientists, chemists, electrical engineers and conspiracy theorists.
 What do you think happened?

PS:  Some of you may be thinking "How can you run five miles in heat and
humidity and then gulp down beer?".  Practice, practice, practice...

cheers,
    j

*****************************************************************
*  John Myers				      Polk Audio Inc.	                *
*  Mechanical and Industrial Design Manager	      Baltimore, MD
          *
*  jmyers at polkaudio.com                                             "The
Speaker Specialists"  *
*****************************************************************


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Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 08:42:23 -0600
From: John Adams <jadams at pipeline.cnd.hp.com>
Subject: 1997 Colorado Brewer's Festival


                      1997 Colorado Brewer's Festival
                                      
   The Colorado Brewer's Festival was held Saturday and Sunday June 28/29
   and still the best local beer festival in the state. All participating
   were having a great time enjoying the live music, eating good foods,
   taking in a cigar (new this year), and drinking the fantastic suds.
   
   This festival is held in the colorful Olde Town section of Fort
   Collins without and access control. Anybody and their dog is welcome
   to listen to the music and enjoy the food (drinking beer requires a
   wristband). This open atmosphere and colorful location makes the
   festival a success (and the beer lines long).
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Cheyenne Mountain Brewing Co.
   1858 Gold Camp Amber Lager (3 of out 4)
          A very silky and clean beer. Smooth and extremely drinkable.
          Listening to "The Blues Revival" playing "Having a Good Time",
          with this beer in hand I was having a good time!
          

   Brouwer Brewery
   Brouwer Golden Pilsner (3)
          Slightly bitter and lightly hopped. Not as highly hopped as an
          Pilsener Urquel and a tad too malty. Very clean and slightly
          sweet finish.
          

   Redfish New Orleans Brewhouse
   Stonewall's Uptown Ale (2.5)
          Listed as a trappist-style. Slightly phenolic and astringent
          hop bite up front. A slight hop taste in the finish and
          slightly sweet. A good attempt at a style very few brew.
 

   BJ's Pizza, Grill, & Brewery
   Jeremiah Red (2.5)
          Very drinkable and clean. Hop and mild malt. Very pleasant and
          very drinkable.
          

   Dam Brewing Company
   Brew Brothers Extra Pale Ale (2.5)
          A middle of the road drink. Refreshing and clean but nothing
          special. Hoppy and slightly malty and very drinkable.
          

   New Belgium Brewing
   Saison (3.5 / Best of Show)
          Nice spicy character and a tad spicier than a Wit but not too
          much. Very clean, no hops and slightly malty. Ginger is
          apparent and very nice.
          
          New Belgium has once again produced a very nice beer and was
          easily the best beer I tried at the festival.
          

   Steamworks Brewing Company
   Lizard Head Red (3)
          A very pleasant ale not too hoppy or malty and finishes very
          clean. Extremely drinkable. Takes a little adjustment after
          just sampling the spicy Saison but very nice. A good everyday
          brew.

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Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 10:51:29 -0500
From: Denis Barsalo <denisb at CAM.ORG>
Subject: Old Wheat Yeast

Hey gang,
	I usually hate asking these questions, but I guess I just need
someone to say: "Sure... go ahead and use it!".
	I made a starter using a combination of a) A two year old Wyeast
3056 smack pack that swelled and b) Dregs from a Yeast Lab W51 beer I made
last summer. The starter fermented but didn't create much of a krauzen.
Actually, none! It just showed small club soda like bubbles on the surface.
	Now, there's well over an inch and a half of yeast and trub on the
bottom of the gallon jug that I plan to pitch to a wheat beer recipe. I
tasted the wort that's on top and it has an orange juice like flavor that
is not really unpleasant. (I usually find most starters taste funny
beacause of the lack of hops.)
	What do you think. Is this starter going to ruin my batch? Is this
orange juice like flavor a sign of bacterial infection that is not wanted
in a wheat beer? I plan to brew saturday early morning. E-mail me with your
comments please.

Denis



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Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 11:11:15 -0400
From: LNUSTRUK.CZLSSB at gmeds.com
Subject: Aluminum Pot

1). Aside from reacting with some cleaning products, is there any good reason
why I should avoid a Aluminum brewpot? I located a comercial grade 24qt pot at
Gordon Food Service, a resaurant supply store for about $70. I'd welcome any
input.


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Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 09:05:06 EDT
From: haafbrau1 at juno.com
Subject: Kahlua Beer,  Lemon Brew

As far as Kahlua Beer, I just add a shot to a mug of beer, usually an
amber or dark.  This is probably just psychological.  I think it tastes
great as a change of pace and my br-in-law agrees. YMMV.  
I can't wait for the post on this lemonade recipe.  Around here in So.
Jersey, we have something similar called One Eyed Jack.  It's described
as a lemon brew.  Very tasty, without a tacky after-taste. Tastes very
much like lemonade.  That's my 2 cents for now.

Don't worry, be Hoppy
Paul Haaf
haafbrau1 at juno.com

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Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 17:18:31 +200
From: "Braam Greyling" <braam.greyling at azona.co.za>
Subject: Weyermann malts

Hi all,

I have a couple of varieties of Weyermann malts:
Pilsner
Vienna
Munich 
Caramunch2
Wheat
Wheat (dark)
Smoked malt.
I would like some suggestions on mashing schedules for these malts.
Also, if you have used some of these malts, please let me know what 
flavors carried through and what is the good and bad points.
I havent brewed with it yet and want to make sure I accentuate the 
right properties of these malts. Any info is welcome

Thanks very much.
Braam Greyling    I.C. Design Engineer
Azona(Pty)Ltd     
tel +27 12 6641910  fax +27 12 6641393

You can taste a good beer with one sip, 
but it is better to make thoroughly sure.

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Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 09:30:16 -0700
From: Kelly Jones <kejones at ptdcs2.intel.com>
Subject: Alcohol and sweetness/Gram scales

AlK writes:
> Ahh, but alcohol is bitter and in high-alcohol beers some of the bitterness
> comes from hops and some from the alcohol

Alcohol contributes sweetness, not bitterness... Try comparing a glass
of (pure) water to a glass with a few percent alcohol.
- --------------------------
I was in a woodworker's shop the other day (Woodcraft Supply, many major
cities have one) when I noticed a small scale, used to measure gram
quantities of wood stains/dyes.  It was very simple, having a clip at
one end from which to hang the sample to be weighed, and a pointer at
the other end to indicate the weight.  It was calibrated in 1-gram
increments up to 20 grams, and had a total capacity of 100g.  The best
part was the price: $3.50.  I picked one up, the accuracy is surely
sufficient for homebrewing/winemaking purposes, and will be useful for
weighing out smaller quantities than my hop scale (calibrated in
half-ounces) permits.

Kelly
Hillsboro, OR

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Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:51:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: JeffHailey at aol.com
Subject: Tulsa Water, Mead Question

I got the water analysis for the two plants that supply Tulsa.  I 
posted a summary on my web sight.  http://members.aol.com/JeffHailey

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Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:54:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: JeffHailey at aol.com
Subject: Mead question

Oops..  sent that one too soon!

Now, I brewed my first mead last week.  Gravity went from 
1058 OG down to 0995 FG in 5 days.  One thing is wrong, 
however.  This stuff is SOUR!!!!  It tastes like an infection, but 
I'm not sure.  At this point, it is absolutely undrinkable.  Should
I throw it out or does it need to age?

Thanks!
Jeff Hailey
Brewing in Tulsa, OK
http://members.aol.com/JeffHailey

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Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 13:18:00 -0400
From: "Kerr, David" <David.Kerr at ummc.ummed.edu>
Subject: Edwin Newman/William Safire wannabe

korz wrote:

>There's two "b's" in Dubbel, but only one "p" in Tripel.  Sorry... pet
peave.

I believe that it's spelled "peeve".  Sorry - one nit-pick deserves
another.


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Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 11:19:07 EDT
From: aehoward at juno.com (Andrew E Howard)
Subject: Isinglass worries

I decided to try using isinglass for the first time.  I stirred 1 tsp. in
about 1/3 cup of boiled, cooled water.  It didn't dissolve, like the
instructions said, but I figured that was okay.  I poured it into the
secondary of my current batch.  Now, two days later, many of the flakes
are just floating on the top of the beer.  Is this normal?  Should I be
concerned?

Thanks!

Andrew

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Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 10:49:29 -0700
From: smurman at best.com
Subject: Colorado microbrews// no more botulism


Just got back from a paid vacation to Aspen/Snowmass.  Your tax
dollars at work;) I tried some of the local micros, and even living in
California, Colorado may be getting hit by the microbrew trend even
harder than we are here.  

I tried the two offerings available from the New Belgium brewery
(www.newbelgium.com); the legendary Fat Tire Ale, and the Sunshine
Wheat.  The Fat Tire is definately unique for an American produced
amber ale, but to tell the truth, I wasn't that crazy about it.  I
would prefer either of the styles it's in-between, a Belgian ale or an
American amber, to the combination.  The Sunshine Wheat is a Belgian
wheat beer style, and I thought it was a good beer, but maybe not
great.  I did like the way the citrus tastes were very subdued, but
still evident.  A tough trick to manage.

I had the Tabernash pilsener, which I thought was very good.  I don't
know anything about the beer, and I'm not a great pilsener fan, but I
would order this one again.

My favorite was the Red Lady Ale from the Crested Butte Brewery.  This
was a smooth amber ale of a style that I never seem to grow tired of
when done well.

I also stopped at the Flying Dog Brewpub in Aspen.  I had their Amber
(which they visibly note won something at the GABF), which was "eh",
and the stout, which tasted like a homebrew stout. Neither of the
beers really did much for me.

//

I wrote:
     Every account I've read states that botulism is colorless, odorless,
     and tasteless.  It is also doubtful that botulism sporolation could
     produce enough CO2 to raise a steel canning lid.

George responded:
     
     Imagine, an organism with no metabolic wastes!  Fascinating!  
     Actually, as I wrote here a few months ago, according to Bergey's 
     Manual (a microbiology reference book) Clostridium (the bacteria 
     responsible for the production of Botulism toxin) CAN produce all 
     sorts of fermentation by-products.  Some of them are hydrogen sulfide 
     and ammonia.  These are pretty damn smelly.
     
     My guess is that the danger lies within a can in which the Clostridium 
     have just begun to grow.  There may be some toxin present, but there 
     *may* not be enough other fermentation products around for your nose 
     to detect.  Just a guess.

Botulism produces CO2, ammonia, and probably many other compounds, but
as you note, the problem is that it does not have a chance to produce
macroscopically noticable amounts.  It is difficult for botulism to
sporolate in the first place, and especially in a relatively acid
environment, hence *IF* any toxin is produced it is a very small
amount.  The reaction also lowers the pH of the medium so that the
sporolation by-products actually halt it's own reproduction.  So the
real problem is that the toxin is so lethal that extremely small
amounts can cause a problem, while the by-products will still remain
unnoticed.
     
     I continue:
     
     The effects Dave [Miller] is describing are associated with bacteria 
     spoilage; a much different beast from botulism
     
     George retorts:	

     Actually, Botulism IS caused by bacterial spoilage; the beast is the 
     same!   Now back to brewing...

What I was referring to in my post was the macroscopic effects of the
two, i.e. the difference between theory in a book and practice in the
kitchen.  Traditional bacteria spoilage is unmistakable in long-term
storage, while botulism is usually not detected until the symptoms are
present in whoever ingests it (i.e. it's colorless, etc.).  Spoilage
also causes a problem for botulism production because it can raise the
pH of the medium leading to an environment more conducive to
sporolation.

As I said a long time ago, I'm not trying to convince anyone that it
is necessary to pressure can, or anything else.  I simply think
everyone should educate themselves and then make up their own minds on
the issue because it *is* still in contention, and it is potentially
lethal.  Obviously, those on the HBD who felt it was important to
understand the issue have read up on the subject, and that's all I was
after, so I'll try to shut-up.

(Strange, we've discussed this issue for months, yet some folks think
two paragraphs by Dave Miller completely clears up the problem.
<shrug>.)

SM

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Date: Thu, 03 Jul 97 12:32:15 MDT
From: guym at Exabyte.COM
Subject: Re: Japanese Beetle Blues

     Richard King writes:
     
     >Date:    1 Jul 1997 16:58:45 EST
     >From: <RKING at VUNET.VINU.EDU>
     >Subject: Japanese Beetle Blues
     >
     >Lee: I know what you are going through. The little creeps are
     >busy destroying my beautiful vegetable garden and my remaining
     >hop plant. I blasted the buggers today with SEVIN, but I don't
     >know what else to do. I am usually an organic gardener, but I
     >haven't found anything else that works (Sabadilla is my main
     >organic spray, but it doesn't seem to do much against them). I've
     >heard of something called Malathian, which is not organic, that
     >is supposed to work, but I haven't succombed yet.
     
     Richard and Lee,
     
     I, too, am an organic gardener and, while I don't have hop plants
     (yet), I *do* have Japanese beetles.  They love to munch on our Crepe 
     Myrtles, River Birches, and some kind of flowering behemoth that grows 
     at one end of my house.  What's more, their grubs can destroy a lawn 
     by gnawing on the roots of the grass.  I have been using a product 
     called "Neem Away" (from "Gardens Alive!") which is an extract from 
     the Neem tree.  It repels the beetles from plants, disrupts their 
     desire to feed (so they starve) and, more importantly (to me) disrupts 
     their molting and breeding cycles (fewer grubs).  Additionally, I use 
     traps (plastic ones - I got tired of the bags) to catch the adults and 
     nematodes to kill the grubs.  It is indeed very important to keep the 
     traps away from plants that the beetles like or it will simply lure 
     them to the plant.  I have mine next to a Colorado Blue Spruce, which 
     the beetles do not like (I believe that they will not bother any 
     evergreen).  This three-pronged approach has significantly lowered the 
     number of beetles I am seeing this year and I am confident that they 
     will continue to decline.  All of the above products I obtained from 
     "Gardens Alive!" but I have seen Neem at other organic gardening 
     locations.
     
     I hope this helps anyone fighting these little imports!
     
     Guy McConnell /// Huntersville, NC /// guym at exabyte.com
              /// CoralReefer at compuserve.com ///
     "And the beer I had for breakfast wasn't bad, 
     so I had one for dessert..."


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Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:43:00 -0500
From: Greg.A.Kudlac at mcdermott.com
Subject: Gueuze Belgians

     Greetings Collective!
     
     My father is a BIG fan of this style.  I live in NE Ohio and was 
     wondering if anyone out there knows where I can find some of the 
     imported brands (or if any of them are imported?).
     
     Thanks in advance for your help!
     
     Greg
     
     Beer -- it does a body better.
     
     greg.a.kudlac at mcdermott.com

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Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:24:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: homebrew at dcn.davis.ca.us (Sean Mick)
Subject: Re: kahlua beer (July 03, 1997)

Someone asked:
> how do I make kahlua beer?

Adding coffee certainly works, especially if you are bottling the beer.
Here is another approach if you are KEGGING the beer, used by one of my
customers to great success: Add Sorbistat K (potassium sorbate sold in most
homebrew shops) after fermentation is finished to prevent new fermentation
from starting, then add Kahlua (or any liqueur for that matter) to taste,
then keg & force carbonate. Not quite sure exactly how much Kahlua to add,
but I know the results can be very smooth and tasty!!


Sean Mick
Mick's Homebrew Supplies
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~homebrew



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Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:44:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: homebrew at dcn.davis.ca.us (Sean Mick)
Subject: Corny keg Unitank?

Hello,

Has anyone out there had any success with building a unitank out of corny
keg similar to the one that is advertised in BT (The "Conicorn"?) That guy
charges $550 or so, which I can't currently afford, and I'd like to use a 5
gallon keg anyway (He uses a 10). I simply want to weld a cone and maybe a
1 gallon cylindrical extension to the bottom. I plan to have it welded
professionally, but I am wondering if anyone out there has tried such a
device and can comment on their effectiveness for yeast/trub removal,
"capping," etc. Also, is there a good, low cost source for a pressure
relief valve that can be set for 0-30 psi and hook to the quick disconnect
gas port?

Private email OK, I can post results if there is interest. Thanks all,

Sean Mick
Mick's Homebrew Supplies
http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~homebrew



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Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 17:38:14 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Val J. Lipscomb" <valjay at NetXpress.com>
Subject: Pre-chiller tubing size

Help, I need a techno-brewer!! I have finally given up on the
idea of pumping ice water thru my homemade CF chiller. I can't
find a pump that can,*affordably*,hold up to the back pressure.
BTW,thanks to Ken Schwartz and William Stewart for their help
in that quest. Local tap water is in the 80F range and going
up, so I'll try pre-chilling the water goin to the CF. The 
question is,what OD soft copper would give me the most "bang
for the buck"?? I'll immerse the coil in a 36 quart Igloo cooler
filled with ice and water and should hope to get at least a 10-15
degree drop in water temp.   FWIW,the chiller is 3/8 OD copper 
inside 5/8 ID garden hose. My first thought was to use 1/2OD copper 
 as a pre-chiller,so as to keep the water pressure up.For all the 
brewers in these hot brewing climates, I thank you in advance for 
your technical input!!

I really hate pitching yeast in 82F wort, but am too chicken to 
wait for the room temp to cool it further. I do get some interest-
ingly estery ales,though.

Val Lipscomb-brewing in San Antonio


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Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:28:37 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <Alan.McKay.amckay at nt.com>
Subject: Canning Wort again


In #2453 Gary Knull of Alberta suggest a method for canning wort which
is
known among home-canners as the "open kettle" method.  I can assure you
that this method has the potential to be extremely dangerous, and I
strongly
suggest against using it. 

As any good modern book on canning foods will tell you (See: "Putting
Food By", ISBN: 0-452-26899-0, Plume 1991), canning
food with this oldfashioned "Open Kettle Method" is no longer considered
safe. Furthermore, "every carefully prepared food with
a rating higher than 4.6 pH must be processed in a Pressure Canner"
(PFB, p 43). This means cooking the entire mason jars in
a pressure cooker for at least a half hour, preferably longer. 

cheers,
 -Alan

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Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:17:15 -0500
From: "Alan McKay" <Alan.McKay.amckay at nt.com>
Subject: La Fin du Monde ...


In #2450 Jim Cave extolls the virtues of a Quebec beer La Fin du Monde.

Having a good deal of inside info, let me tell you what I know about
Unibroue.
Firstly, and most importantly, all of their brewhouse (including the
Brewmaster)
are imported from Belgium.  Thus all of their beers are true
Belgian-style.
In fact, last year their Blanc du Chambly took best in the world,
beating
out several Belgian Whits.  (Don't remember where this competition was,
sorry.  But I have the info right form the horse's mouth -- the local
rep is
a friend of mine)

Also a little story about the name "La Fin du Monde".

When the Brewmaster first finalized the recipe, a name had to be found.
Unibroue involves the entire staff from janitor to brewmaster to owner
in
these sorts of things, so for weeks they were searching for the right
name
to no avail.  Finally one day the co-owner (a famous Quebec rock star
who's name also escapes me) came in for a visit to the president.  The
president of course was bemoaning the fact that they had this wonderful
new beer, but had no name for it no for weeks on end.  He wouldn't stop
complaining about it, so finally the rock star says to him (in French of
course) :
"But [name forgotten], it's not the end of the world"
To which the president replies (also in French of course):
"But it is, it *is* the end of the wolrd!"

And the two immediately looked at each other, realizing they'd just
found the name.

cheers,
 -Alan


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---