---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Which Gott ("Alan McKay")
  On Botulism ("Alan McKay")
  Hennings Hop beer, Korz on alcohol (Randy Ricchi)
  IBU's of commercial brews (Stephen Hudson)
  Jap. Beetles and Hop Plants-insecticides (Stephen Neate)
  Chocolate stouts (Dr James Clark)
  re: "Jenny Cream Ale" / What IS cream ale? (Tom Lombardo)
  Bell's Beers (nkanous)
  grain dust explosions (kathy)
  Iodophor Staining (Bill Marks)
  Igloo Cooler mash tun (Dave Thomson)
  black beers (bryangros)
  electronic fermentation monitoring (Heiner Lieth)
  Re: An oxidation q uestion (Steve Alexander)
  Japanese Beetles ("Lee Carpenter")
  Cleaning my dirty chiller (John Bell)
  Moved another freezer (nkanous)
  Alcoholic lemonade recipes (Brad McMahon)


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Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 17:33:27 -0500
From: "Alan McKay" <Alan.McKay.amckay at nt.com>
Subject: Which Gott


Kenneth Lee asks which Gott to buy.

Kenneth, myself and many others brew excellent 5 gallon batches in
the 5 gallon Gott.  You can do just about anything except really high
gravity mashes.  I've squeezed about 12 lbs of grain in there, and
my friend has come close to 13lbs, but that is really pushing it.
Unless you forsee using more than that, you'll be fine with the 5
gallon.

cheers,
 -Alan


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Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 17:38:51 -0500
From: "Alan McKay" <Alan.McKay.amckay at nt.com>
Subject: On Botulism


Having been and avid home-canner before becoming an avid homebrewer,
I can assure you that botulism is indeed a serious risk when canning
wort.
Please see my page 
http://www.magma.ca/~bodnsatz/brew/tips/yeast/pressure-can.html
for complete details.

In short, if your wort is above pH 4.3 (which it is unless it's heavily
hopped),
then Botulism spores will survive even boiling.  Only under pressure can
you reach the temperature required to kill the spores (235F or so). 
Alternately, a lower pH (high acid) will deactivate the spores.

cheers,
 -Alan


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Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 22:40:18 -0400
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Hennings Hop beer, Korz on alcohol

On Jason Hennings Hoppy beer (July 3 posting):
I have a feeling that by getting all your IBU's in the last 20 minutes of
the boil, the "perceived" bitterness is going to be much higher than the
IBU's would suggest, due to an overpowering hop flavor.  Please keep us
posted as to the taste profile after, say, one week and then maybe four weeks.
- -------------------------------------------------------------
In response to Massimo Faraggi's input on hop balance, Al Korzona said:
"Ahh, but alcohol is bitter and in high-alcohol beers some of the bitterness
comes from hops and some from the alcohol... doesn't it?"

Actually, I believe alcohol contributes sweetness, not bitterness, to beer. 



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Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 13:33:49 +1100
From: Stephen Hudson <s.hudson at bom.gov.au>
Subject: IBU's of commercial brews

Hi all,

    A couple of years ago I found a listing of IBU's for commercial
brews on the 'net.  It wasn't just a range for different AHA styles, (I
have that already) but a listing for various commercial brews.  I trying
to see if my taste buds can match the IBU of a commercial brew with some
of my efforts to see how I'm going with hop utilisation/bitterness.  Can
anyone point me in the right direction to find this listing again
please???

Cheers,
Stephen
s.hudson at bom.gov.au





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Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 14:34:58 +0900
From: Stephen Neate <Stephen.Neate at adl.soils.csiro.au>
Subject: Jap. Beetles and Hop Plants-insecticides

I would like to make some comments about the insecticides listed by Art
McGregor from his search of the web

>   Oct 1993     INSECT CONTROL IN MINOR VEGETABLE CROPS          MINO-023
>            Dr. Freddie A. Johnson, Extension Entomologist
>                                    Hops
>  Cythion  (malathion)
> *Diazinon  (diazinon)
>  Dipel  (B.t.)
>  Javelin (B.t.)
>  Kelthane  (dicofol)
>  Omite (propargite)
> *Telone II  (1,3-dichloropropene)
> *Telone C-17  (1,3-dichloropropene + chloropicrin)
>  Vapam  (metam-sodium)

1) Malathion controls many insects and would be the best chemical listed
for beetle control.
2) B.t. is Bacillus thuringiensis, a bacterium which produces a toxin that
is deadly to insects, and could be considered an 'organic' solution.
3) Diclofol and propargite are both miticides and would kill your mites.
4) The last three, Telone II, C-17 and metham-sodium are fumigants and
should be handled VERY carefully if at all by home gardeners.  I do not
think they have any place in the growing crop, just as a pre-plant treatment.

There are probably many other alternatives.  The registration system for
agrochemicals in any crop involves a chemical company deciding that there
is money to be made, then extensive field testing for efficacy and
potential deleterious effects.  However, the above named chemicals are
tested and crop safe and experimentation with other insecticides may lead
to poor results or less likely, crop damage.

Always check with-holding periods for any chemicals used, use gloves and
overclothes and ideally a face mask.  Spray on a still day and wash up
afterwards.  Chemicals can be absorbed through the skin and by inhalation
as well as ingestion.

Stephen Neate
Adelaide, Australia

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Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:41:10 GMT
From: Dr James Clark <jclark at clinmed.gla.ac.uk>
Subject: Chocolate stouts

I have been trying to copy the chocolate stout  style of beer, 
especially Young's double chocolate stout. I have used varying 
ratio's of pale malt to chocolate malt with little success in 
recreating the flavour of the Youngs beer. The only thing I have not 
tried is adding cocoa or chocolate extract to the boil. Has anyone 
any suggestions or recipes?


Thanks


James


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Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 06:07:23 -0500 (CDT)
From: Tom Lombardo <favt3tl at rvcux1.RVC.CC.IL.US>
Subject: re: "Jenny Cream Ale" / What IS cream ale?

Charlie asks about Jenny Cream Ale.

Charlie,

I think you're referring to Genesee (Genny) Cream Ale, brewed in Rochester
NY (on the banks of the lovely Genesee river).  My Dad used to drink it,
and in my teen years I smuggled a few six's out of Dad's stock ;-)

I don't think you'll find it outside of the upstate NY area.   Genny is to
upstate NY as Old Style is to Chicago as Iron City is to Pittsburgh.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------

Now, on to a question:  What makes cream ale cream ale?  I heard somewhere
(can't remember where) that you use both ale and lager yeast.  This could
be the "special 2 step fermentation" you referred to.  How is it done?
Anyone?

Tom 

**********************************************************************
* When freedom is outlawed, only outlaws will be free. - Tom Robbins *
*            __________________                                      *
*           |*****_____________|                                     *
*           |*****_____________|                                     *
*           |*****_____________|            (Happy 4th!)             *
*           |     _____________|                                     *
*           |     _____________|                                     *
*           |__________________|                                     *
*                                                                    *
* Tom Lombardo (favt3tl at rvcux1.rvc.cc.il.us)                         *
**********************************************************************




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Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:53:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: nkanous at tir.com (nkanous)
Subject: Bell's Beers

Greetings to the collective.  I've been following the Bell's thread.  I've
never had and troubles getting details from the guys at the brewery.
However, on the other hand, I don't find it surprising that difficulties
were encountered occurred.  Guess I just expect things a bit quirky at
Bell's sometimes.  I thought that I would respond to the best of my
abilities regarding recipie formulation.

Bells currently (got mine two months ago) has a pamphlet available behind
the bar that gives some basic information about their beers.

Amber ale is only described as using crystal, munich, and pale malts (pale
is most likely Breiss 2-row).  Original gravity 1.055, but no hop information.

Bell's Pale Ale is made entirely of 2-row and biscuit malt.  My guess is
about 1/2 pound of biscuit per 5 gallons (only a guess, haven't replicated
it yet).  I personally haven't noticed any grapefruit flavors in the pale
ale, but I may not have looked that closely.  Tasted a brew in Madison WI
last year that screamed grapefruit.  Anyhow, back to Bell's Pale Ale.  After
numerous pints on repeated occasions, I have come to believe that the Pale
Ale is entirely hopped with Cluster hops.  I haven't been able to locate any
whole cone cluster hops to experiment with. It is also brewed to an O.G. of
1.050.

Hope this helps.  Sorry I forgot any posters names.

nathan in Frankenmuth, MI 


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Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 08:27:52 -0500
From: kathy <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: grain dust explosions

The recent PBS Nova program "KABOOM' demonstrated a flour explosion. 
The demonstrator placed an ordinary candle upright on the ground and
placed a section of maybe 4" pipe over it open at both ends.  Standing
carefully to the side of the 4' length of pipe, he took an ordinary
paper with flour on it and tapped it so maybe 1/2 c flour fell slowly
into the open pipe.

Kaboom.  This was outside of course and I wouldn't use fragile pipe.

Indeed, when mills and elevators get blown apart, it is often a small
initial explosion which blows dust into the air thru out the structure,
which is then ignites secondary explosions.  

Cheers, Jim Booth, formally, a loss prevention engineer in the grain
handling and processing industry.



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Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 10:06:29 -0400
From: Bill Marks <bill_marks at ids.net>
Subject: Iodophor Staining

I, like everybody else who has ever used the stuff, have had my plastic
tubing stained by iodophor.  Since the staining is from the iodine content
it would seem that the stained hoses would be less prone to growing critters
due to the now imbeded antiseptic qualities of the iodine.  True?

I don't suggest that maintaining strict santization of the tubing isn't
necessary, I am just trying to convince my self no to throw out tubing that
has become stained.  Sowhatdayathink?

Bill Marks
Portsmouth, RI


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Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 10:38:22 -0400
From: Dave Thomson <dlt at ici.net>
Subject: Igloo Cooler mash tun

Thank You all for your great advice. I ended up buying a Phils Phase 
bottom and attaching it to a 1/2 ball valve. A couple people mentioned 
that the bottom tends to float up in the process. Have others 
experienced this and how do you solve this problem?? Keep brewing!

Dave Thomson
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontle Lobotomy!

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Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:27:17 -0700
From: bryangros at juno.com
Subject: black beers

From: Brad McMahon <brad at sa.apana.org.au>
>
>From: "Michael R. Frank" <mfrank at ag.Arizona.EDU>
>>1) Just what is a black beer anyway? I've been seeing and tasting an
>>increasing number of these lately, and whatever they are, I generally
>>like them. But when I look somewhere like the AHA style guidelines (or
>>HBD archives, Cat's Meow, etc) there is little or no information. There
>>are obviously differences  between something like Xingu and Portland's
>>Haystack Black, but are these just american (or new-world) porters? 
>
>Not knowing what those commercial brands are, you have a couple
>of choices. ...

Marketing people must have decided that Red Beer is no longer working,
so they came up with a new term with no meaning.
I just had a bottle of Widmer Black Beer here in N. California.  The fine
print on the bottle says somthing like a "smooth porter", but the
marketing BS on the six-pack holder talks about a night in Dusseldorf
tossing back Zum Urige (sp?).  

so what does it taste like?  It was a pretty decent altbier.  Fairly dark
for an alt, but a nice maltiness with a smooth bitter finish.  Nothing 
like a porter.  

  - Bryan Gros
    BryanGros at juno.com
    Berkeley, CA

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Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 13:41:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Heiner Lieth <lieth at telis.org>
Subject: electronic fermentation monitoring

A few days ago I set up a data logger and ran a couple of temperature
sensors into the insulated box where I have my fermenter.  I can now monitor
various temperatures without opening the box and letting all the cold air out.

Now the only thing I have to open the box for is to check on the progress of
the fermentation.  Have any of you found a way to instrument a fermenter to
determine if it is still producing CO2 (bubbling)?  ...Or, better yet, is
there a way to electronically monitor the specific gravity? 

Heiner Lieth.




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Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 21:33:25 +0000
From: Steve Alexander <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: An oxidation q uestion

Brian Pickerill asks ...

>Why is it that distilled spirits do not have an oxidation problem?
>... What about wine?
>... Isn't it the alcohol that is oxidized in stale beer?

First off I'd suggest George Fix's "Principles of Brewing Science" as a
great starting point to review oxidation and oxidized products in beer.

Alcohols and their oxidation-
Ethanol oxidizes into acetaldehyde (which smells like green apples), and
then into acetic acid (vinegar).  There is a substantial energetic
barrier to initiating these reactions so they don't really happen much
outside of infecting microbes like some yeast and aceto-bacteria.  Some
of the higher alcohols (fusel oils) do oxidize and produce raunchy
tasting aldehydes like 2-nonenol.  Melanoidins help this to occur, but
with any luck and care fusel oil concentrations are low and other
oxidizables are more prevalent.

Beer -
Fix suggest the following "major oxidation reactions" in beer
1/ melanoidin mediated oxidation of fusel alcohols - v.bad
2/ oxidation of iso-alpha-acids (from hops)
3/ oxidaton of fatty acids (from trub & yeast) - v.bad
4/ oxidation of phenols
5/ strecker reactions - classic staling from malt amino acids
6/ aldol condensation - makes big nasties from small alhedydes

Wine -
Wine is *extremely* oxidizeable.  It's subject to acetic bacterial
oxidation into vinegar.  Red wines are filled to the brim with
oxidizable phenolics and some 'noble' whites such as german reislings
have consideable phenolic content too.  Because wine is never boiled or
pastuerized the phenol-oxidase enzymes from grapes remain active in
wine.   They are ready to start oxidizing the phenols into tannins as
soon as the wine is exposed to air.  Once wine is sealed in a bottle no
additional oxygen is admitted until it is opened.  The phenolics
continue to oxidize slowly by reducing other compounds and the oxidized
phenols polymerize.  Progressively polymerized phenols become bitter,
then astringent, then become so big that they drop out of solution.  At
this point red wines are mature. So aged red wines over time can become
less bitter and astringent while keeping flavor compounds fresh by
reduction.  Further bottle aging beyond this point can lead to stale
brown wines.  See Michael Broadbent's booklet 'Wine Tasting' for some
nice comparative color pictures of aging red wines.

If you cut open an apple the browning that quickly occurs is due to
oxidation of simple phenolics in the presence of air and phenol oxidase
 - you all know the negative impact this has on fruit flavor.

A bottle of wine, once opened, loses volatile aroma compounds quickly
and oxidation of phenols and stecker degradation of amino acids is
swift. A 24 hour store of a half filled bottle at room temperature is
usually fatal to flavor.  BTW toppng off a partly filled wine bottle
with CO2 does a better job of preservation than the vacu-vin that AlK
mentioned.

Whiskey/Brandy -
Without melanoidins the higher alcohols don't readily oxidize.  Most of
the other oxidizable substances never make it through a still.  The
exception to this is that pot distilled fruit wines (cognac, calvados,
brandies, eau de vies) may contain some small amount of oxidizeables and
may stale over long time periods.  Pot stills allow a much greater range
of substances thru than column continuous stills. Scotch whiskys and
irish whiskys are also (double or triple) pot distilled, but these don't
seem to suffer from oxidation (they can lose aroma volatiles when
exposed to air tho').  Anything labelled whisky or whiskey has been aged
in oak barrels for 4 to 30 (or more) years - usually at around 110 proof
(cask strength) and these barrels are not air tight.  Alcohol and
volatiles are slowly lost and oxygen certainly permeates in.  Scotch and
american whiskeys contain considerable phenolics from peat smoke,
charcoal, oak barrels, rye (some rye phenolics can pass thru a
continuous still) or a combination of the above - but these are
apparently not significantly subject to oxidation from modest exposure
to air at room temperature.  A half filled bottle of scotch will keep
well for years.

Grain alcohol like vodka has virtually nothing except ethanol to
oxidize. [I'm no expert, but I suspect that the notion of 'premium
vodka' borders on consumer fraud.]  Gin may contain some oxizable oils
from the juniper berries - I'm not sure.

Steve Alexander


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Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 18:22:53 -0400
From: "Lee Carpenter" <leec at redrose.net>
Subject: Japanese Beetles

Thanks to all for the varied and informative replies to my beetle question.
I especially liked Keith Royster's idea of pureeing the bastards in a
blender with water and then spraying them on the plants as a repellent!
Think about it, if you saw a place littered with smelly, pureed humans,
would you hang around? I'm giving it a try. I have a few thousand in my bag
traps right now.

Thanks Again.

Lee C. Carpenter


"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline--it
helps if you have some kind of football team, or some nuclear weapons,
but at the very least you need a beer."
                                       -- Frank Zappa


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Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 14:19:46 -0700
From: John Bell <jbell at isomedia.com>
Subject: Cleaning my dirty chiller

A couple of batches ago I didn't clean out my chiller right away.  It 
sat in the garage for about a week before I could get to it.  Before 
my last batch I ran near-boiling beer line cleaner through it, let it sit
about a half hour, rinsed liberally with boiling water, then sanitized
with iodophor.  Last time I tasted the current brew, it tasted like it 
was infected.  

Short of getting a new one, does anyone have a sure-fire way
to clean out a stubborn chiller?  Any help would be much
appreciated, and I swear I'll never let it happen again.


John Bell
Seattle, WA
jbell at isomedia.com

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Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 17:57:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: nkanous at tir.com (nkanous)
Subject: Moved another freezer

George DiPiro successfully conquered his refrigerator woes here recently.
I am suffering a similar fate.  I recently moved a chest freezer and now
it won't get cold.  I would appreciate some private help.  TIA.

Nathan in Frankenmuth MI


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Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 13:00:46 +1100
From: Brad McMahon <brad at sa.apana.org.au>
Subject: Alcoholic lemonade recipes

OK, by popular request here are two recipes that
emulate Two Dogs lemonade. Enjoy.

Three Dogs Alcoholic Lemonade

thanks to Nirvana Farm, Longwood Rd, Heathfield, South Australia.
And to the Hills Homebrew Centre, 2/312 Mt Barker Road, Aldgate SA.


Ingredients
1kg rough lemons
2kg Meyer lemons
2kg Dextrose
1 sachet ale dry yeast

Method.

1. Grate the zest(rind) off of a few of the lemons. Do not grate the
white pith.
2. Chop up all the lemons into chunks.
3. Cover the lemons and zest with dextrose and a few litres of water.
4. Bring to the boil and simmer for 10 minutes.
5. Dilute out to 20 litres in your fermenter, and pitch yeast at below
30C
6. Ferment out at 20-25C for 7-10 days or until fermentation is
complete.
7. Bottle and prime as for beer. Wait 14 days for carbonation and enjoy.

Note:
Meyer lemons are sweeter lemons. Use them if available but 3kg
of whatever lemons you can find will work just as nicely.
Don't worry, relax and enjoy a Three Dogs!

_______________________

My Dogs Plus
Lemonade Brew

Ingredients

10 Lemons
2kg Dextrose
My Brew Lemonade Kit

Method.

1. Prepare your brewing equipment as you do for beer.
2. Grate the zest(rind) from four of the lemons (not the pith).
3. Squeeze the juice from these lemons and the other six lemons and
place in a bowl with the rind.
4. Pour 2 litres of boiling water into the fermenter and add the
juice/rind
mixture. Stir well.
5. Add the dextrose and the contents of the My Brew Lemonade kit, and
top up
the fermenter to the 22 litre mark while stirring.
6. Pitch yeast when temperature reaches 28C or less, stir and fit
airlock.
7. Ferment for 10-14 days or until gravity reaches 1003 or less.
8. Prime bottles as for beer and allow to carbonate for 14 days.

Thanks to Andrew Schultz
of "The Hills Homebrew Centre"
2/312 Mount Barker Road
Aldgate SA 5154
Australia.
Ph. +61-8-8370-1000


- --
Brad McMahon		"I don't hate anyone, at least
ph.	0411 501 518	 not for more than 48 minutes,	
brad at sa.apana.org.au	 barring overtime." C. Barkley
Email me for PGP public key.


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